will help you understand how they're feeling. initially they thought wisconsin was in the bang and pennsylvania is in the air and now things are verse. they're saying things are looking better in pennsylvania and not so good about wisconsin and they say because of the anti-fracking message with biden is helping with voters there. >> alexi mccam mamondccammond, s always. you can sign up for the news here letter at signup.axios.com. that does it for us. "morning joe" starts now. so what grade do you give yourself on the virus for the last six, seven months? >> other than the public relations which is impossible because it's a fake media. fake. i know you -- >> yeah i do.

>> other than the fact that i have been unable to -- >> so what's the grade, sir? >> untreating us fairly, i give ourselves an a. but the grade is incomplete. and i'll tell you why. if we come up with the vaccines and therapeutics, then i give myself an a plus. >> all right. president trump in conversation with bob woodward who last night shared that previously unreleased audio from an interview from late july when the president gave himself that glowing grade. 140,000 americans had lost their lives from the coronavirus. now, about two months later, the coronavirus death toll in the u.s. has surpassed 200,000 lives. >> you know, it's -- it's a grading scale i don't think any of us understand or would be comfortable with. i think it's a grading scale

straight out of trump university. because we can grade it from the very beginning where he was a liar and admitted he was a liar to the american people. when he had been told by his own people inside the white house, in january, that this was going to be the biggest crisis he faced of his presidency. when his own trade adviser had told him that half a million americans could die. with that information, donald trump was saying that it was one person coming in from china and soon it would go away. that's not helping you. that's not helping any american. that would be -- really that, that would be like george w. bush continuing to say, after 9/11 hit, that there was nothing to see here. that there was no concern. but he went on. and then he said that it was just 15 people coming in.

and that soon that would be down to zero. he lied about china. he said time and again that china was doing a great job. he told bob woodward that china was a great partner and president xi was a great partner and told americans they were being transparent about everything. now he's claiming that he's being really tough on china. what's the impact of this? and why did he do it? you know why he did it, he only cares about one thing. he doesn't care about you. he doesn't care about the good of the american people. he certainly doesn't care about our standing across the globe. he only cares about him and his political standings and for him that's measured by the dow jones industrial instead of the number of americans dead. now we can compare u.s. death

rates with other countries across the globe. and, of course, you know, despite his lies and even if you're in his personality cult, you know he's lying. you just choose to pretend to believe the lies. but the numbers are the numbers and they'll always be the numbers. and it's not a coincidence that if you live in wisconsin and you just go across the border or if you live in michigan and you just go across the border, what do you find? you find a country where six people died yesterday of covid. now, every death is a tragedy. so i'm not going to say only six people died yesterday in canada. but for a country that was suffering 1,000 deaths just south of there, in the united states, even yesterday, when our

death count was down a little bit, over 50 times the number of americans died yesterday of covid than died in canada. you can do all the adjusting you want for population size. we still come out the loser. and donald trump still comes out president of the united states who botched the biggest health care crisis of the past century. the biggest economic crisis of the past 80 years. and the biggest political crisis of the past 50 years. so, nobody is giving him an "a" grading wise, mika. he's going to try with the supreme court now. all he wants is to keep distracting americans and have them forget that 200,000 americans are dead when so many of those americans would still be alive if donald trump hadn't spent the last six months lying

to you and to your family. >> simple measures could have saved so many of those lives and he led them a different way. those -- you touched on not just 200,000 plus souls lost to coronavirus but the other consequential news story we're looking at this morning the death of ruth bader ginsburg. with us we have reporter jonathan lemire. host of nbc's politics nation reverend al sharpton. historian and professor jon meacham. former u.s. senator now analyst claire mccaskill. and nbc news correspondent host of "way too early," good morning kasie dc, congratulations on your first show. we have a lot to cover this morning, joe. 200,000 plus people lost to the

coronavirus. and also the political discussion surrounding the death of supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg. the second woman to serve on the nation's highest court died on friday at the age of 87. there will be a bitter political fight to fill her seat on the court. the president says he will nominate a replacement and senate majority leader mitch mcconnell said the nominee will get a vote. what's different now from 2016 when mitch mcconnell denie deni president obama's selection of merrick garland. mitch mcconnell wrote over the coming days we are all going to come under the tremendous pressure from the press to announce how we will handle the coming nomination. for those of you who are unsure how to answer or forthose of you

inclined on giving a nominee a vote, i urge you all to keep your powder dry. there are already two defections, the republicans need four. senator susan collins who's in a tough battle in maine and senator lisa murkowski said they oppose a nomination before election day. meanwhile, senator grassley said in july, if i were chairman of the judiciary committee and this vacancy occurred i would not have a hearing on it because that's what i promised the people in 2016. we're also watching senator mitt romney, who has not indicated where he stands. democrats have warned republicans to follow the pre precedent they set in 2016 when the republicans refused to consider president obama's nominee because it was an election year.

mitch mcconnell said he would not give merrick garland his he hearing. the day after ruth bader ginsburg's death, senator lindsey graham said he is, quote, dead set on confirming whoever trump nominates for the seat. this comes despite multiple times if a vacancy came up in the runup to the presidential election he would hold off on confirmation. >> if there's a republican president in 2016 and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term you can say lindsey graham said let's let the next president, whoever it might be, make that nomination, and you can use my words against me and you'll be absolutely right. i'll tell you this, this may make you feel better but i really don't care. if an opening comes in the last year of president trump's term,

and the primary process has started, we'll wait until the next election. and i've got a pretty good chance -- >> you're on the record. >> yeah. hold the tape. >> i guess on the record as a liar, which we'll talk about in just a second. but joe, you know the moment the news broke about the death of justice ginsburg, a lot of our friends on the left and the right were calling, first of all, very, very saddened about her death. but secondly, very worried about the election. our folks, our liberal friends, were worried this would hurt their chances, our republican friends that this was their moment they were having their october surprise. and you said, no, it's the other way around, immediately. why was that? >> i'll get into that in a second but first i have to talk about lindsey graham. there's a guy i came in with in 1994, a friend of mine, and

we -- we worked closely together in congress. and i was talking to a couple of other friends who are no longer in politics but who are friends of lindsayey's and who came in d they're so astounded he would lie so openly. it's like, this is a guy we knew and he would lie that blatantly to the people of south carolina and america, when it's on tape. we really can't get our arms around that, we haven't been able to get our arms around that for several years now. but it's so interesting, lindsey graham, was a guy that led the impeachment against bill clinton, and we republicans were so shocked that bill clinton answered in one of his questions before the grand jury, it depends on what the meaning of

"is" is. and oh my god. oh my god. the national review and "the wall street journal" editorial page, we were running around talking about the destruction of the english language, . you start with language and the rest of culture collapses and soon dogs and cats are sleeping with each other and locusts are descending from the heavens eating the flesh off of our skin in d.c. really, the absolute freak out the republicans had because of bill clinton and his lack of character and the -- him saying what the meaning of is is. we really did talk about what a horrific moral crisis this was. and lindsey graham was at the front of that parade. lindsey is not deconstructing

language there. lindsey's not engaging in moral equivocation. lindsey is just lying. and he's lying openly and it's just like an applebalm says in " "twilight of democracy," they're not even trying to hide it from you. they're lying openly. it is steve danes -- by the way, steve danes is doing the same thing in montana -- >> do voters like this? >> no, they hate it more than anything else. i found, and claire with tell you this, if you say to the people, i know you're not going to agree with this, i know you're not going to like this, this is where i stand, if you don't like it vote against me. i did that all the time and the closest anybody got to me in a general election race was 62% to 38%. and i was the first republican

elected in my district since reconstruction. people don't like when lindsey lies to their face and it's on tape. and he thinks donald trump can get away with this so i can get away with it. but donald trump hasn't gotten away with this. republicans were crushed in 2017 and local and state and national elections. republicans were crushed in 2018. the largest vote landslide in the history of midterm elections. republicans fared horribly in gubernatorial races in 2019. and 2020 is not looking any better. and they keep acting this way. but i -- you go back to the question on why the second i heard this news i thought, uh-oh for republicans. this isn't going to go well for republicans and they're going to

walk right into the trap. it's because of something that senator paul simon of illinois when he retired said. a reporter asked, what was your greatest insight in all your years in politics, and senator simons said, in politics, sometimes when you win you lose. and sometimes when you lose, you win. and i've looked at this from every angle that i can, and there's just no winning hand for the republicans to play here. now, hear me out. if you ask people if you're pro-life, pro-choice, you're split down the middle. i think it tilts a little more towards pro-choice now. but if you ask do you want roe v. wade to be overturned, as my grandmother would say, that's a horse of a different color. poll earlier this year, kaiser

family foundation, about as nonpartisan as it gets, 75% of americans do not want roe v. wade overturned. only 29% do. of the 29% who do want roe v. wade overturned, i've got news for the trump campaign, those people stayed with you through charlottesville. those people stayed through you -- through your -- your -- your racist comments about s-hole countries run by black people. those people stayed with you even when you were caging children on the border. those people stayed with you through your worst offenses. your most inhumane comments. you telling people that they had great genes.

you getting crowds to laugh because a man got shot and knocked to the ground. those people are with you. where will it hurt you, donald? among suburban voters, among women, you just look at the polls, among more educated people, those are the people that you need help with the most, that you're going to lose. and guess what, susan collins, again going back to my grandma, susan collins didn't need this. my grandma would say, i need that like i need a hole in my head. i never really knew what that meant. but susan collins needed this like she needed another tough vote. like, no. this is a nightmare for susan collins. even if she votes against it. this is a nightmare for corey

gardner. again, stay with me. i'm a guy that voted pro-life nonstop. stay with me, this is just basic politics. corey had the 29% already. of suburbs of denver, oh my god, the voting turnout among women and suburbanites in denver. whoa. claire mccaskill, this is not -- this is not wishful thinking on my part at all. this is just politics 101. i actually tweeted the night of rbg's death, hey, you know what, pray for her family, okay. and save your hot takes because they're all wrong. this is a nightmare for republicans. and as somebody said on twitter,

i'm quoting them, not me. donald trump's just too dumb politically to figure that out right now. >> yeah. i was watching kasie -- congratulations by the way on "way too early," and i heard the representative from axios say the fallout for democrats. no. it's the fallout for republicans. you're exactly right, joe. i remember the sinking sensation in my gut when i heard that kennedy had resigned. believe me, there are half a dozen candidates for the u.s. senate that are republican emcouple bents that had the same sinking sensation on friday night. this is not what they need right now. they are the ones that are senators in states where roe v. wade is going to have major

support, along with gay marriage and the aca, so you look at people like corey gardner, joanie ernst, thom tillis, susan collins, they're in a tough position. and what makes it tougher is they are now in full display, showing the american people what liars the republicans are. they didn't say in 2016 it had something to do with the party of the president. they didn't say that. the president had been duly elected by the people and they said, no, the people get to decide in november. they didn't say if we were the same party -- no. they're making that up now. just like graham is making up -- this is the thing that really killed me about his excuse. he said it was because of what the democrats did to kavanaugh in the confirmation hearings.

that tape you just played where he said, hold the tape with goldberg at the atlantic where he said i would not do this. that was after the confirmation hearing. so he already knew what had happened in the confirmation hearing to kavanaugh when he said that. so it's unbelievable how stupid he thinks the people -- he thinks the people of south carolina are stupid. it's amazing to me. >> he does. he's insulting the people of south carolina thinking they are that dumb they would say this is kavanaugh. like you said, that guarantee he made to the people of south carolina, he made that guarantee after kavanaugh. you know, kasie, here's a thing that actually is even, i think, more dangerous for republicans, and claire just touched on it. yes, the press will talk about abortion and yes, the 10% on the right and left will talk about

abortion. but for 75, 80% of americans, the most important issue coming out of this is the fact that another justice added to the supreme court by donald trump will kill the affordable care act once and for all. will kill preexisting conditions once and for all. this really is, at the end of the day, if you want to talk about the issue that will matter most if mitch mcconnell and donald trump and lindsey graham get their -- really get their hopes and wishes of lying to the american people and pushing this through, this is going to be devastating for millions of americans that depend on the affordable care act. because donald trump and republican attorneys general are trying to take away people preexisting condition coverage and their health care coverage and if another justice gets

through, that's what's going to happen. for democrats this should be about health care, health care, health care. >> and it is, joe. that's the message chuck schumer delivered on a conference call yesterday with all of his members. they are focused on this. they know it's the message that appeals to the widest range of americans. even, frankly, a lot of trump supporters who don't want to lose coverage for their preexisting conditions. i've talked to a lot of sources over the last couple of years about this lawsuit that you referenced, they're set to hear arguments essentially a week after the election, ten days after the election. and a lot of my republican sources have wondered why the trump administration has been so focused on this because it is so dangerous. republicans in congress have not been able to come up with an alternative health care plan. even when john mccain went down to the senate floor and put his

thumb down on the changes that republicans were going to make to obamacare, it wasn't even clear they had a cohesive plan to cover people once they dismantled it. and after that, politically, republicans set it aside. you don't want to be the people that are responsible, and claire mccaskill knows this as well as anyone, you don't want to be responsible for taking stuff away from voters. the other piece is, we've been promised a health care plan from the administration for, i think it's months now. jonathan lemire, there's a new deadline it seems every couple weeks, in two weeks the administration is going to have the health care plan out, in another ten days we'll see a health care plan. but so far crickets what are they going to do when we get to that point and there's no plan? >> they keep saying there's a plan. chief of staff mark meadows last

week told reporters one was ready to go, it's a question of unveiling it. there's no sense it's true and no momentum to release that plan and the democrats in the 48 hours or so after justice ginsburg's death made it clear they want it to be about health care. joe biden's remarks yesterday over the weekend also hit that hard. the democrats are saying that is what the seat is about. and, of course, they're also pointing to the idea that legal challenges to this election, the result of the 2020 election now would go potentially to a supreme court, either 4-4 with three trump appointees on it. what we know about the politics of this, joe you and i discussed it this weekend and this is firing up the weekends. act blue the democratic fund-raising site had record totals over the weekend, the highest ever came friday night after the death of justice ginsburg was announced.

the white house is forging forward, the president and his team expect to announce a nominee this week, potentially as early as tomorrow. a trio of female candidates at the of their list. the president in north carolina saturday night said that, and that led to chants of fill that seat. this is going to electrify the trump base, but those are voters you had. there are some now, those close to the white house are optimistic on this, they feel this can change the race. there are plenty of others who fear this could siphon away votes he has. he has his base but right now that base isn't enough to win. >> if he rushes to fill that seat as those people said right after ruth bader ginsburg's death, yes, he will excite and

he will energize, and he will motivate those maskless wonders that were in the crowd. and yes the 29% of americans that were already with him, will stay with him. 75% of americans who don't want roe overturned, again -- listen to me if you're thinking that somehow this isn't just a reality. you go inside those numbers, it's the very people who donald trump is desperately trying to get back on his side this year, the suburban voters, women, more educated americans, you go into the numbers and the cross tabs and they're the very people who will run away from him and mitch mcconnell and lindsey graham as quickly as possible. and by the way, there's another thing about politics jon

meacham. it's who's the face of the party. another thing i said to my democratic friends who were about to engage in another night of political bed-wetting when they were calling me and my republican friends who said, oh, this is big. no. it's not just, again, these numbers. but it's also who's going to be the face of your party as you go towards the election. donald trump is toxic enough with ratings -- favorability ratings in the low 30s. probably the most toxic man in american politics if you look at numbers is mitch mcconnell. so the faces of the republican party are going to be donald trump and mitch mcconnell and lindsey graham. i can tell you, there are -- two of those -- those two senators, they're fighting for their lives in their own states.

mitch is in better position than lindsey right now, but these are not the faces you want outfront if you're susan collins or corey gardner or martha mcsally, thom tillis. purdue in georgia, he's in a tough race in georgia. this is not something that republicans should be hoping for. i can't say it enough. >> no. and i think if you do what i do for a living and what you moonlight doing sometimes and you think about historical moments you look for periods of time that shed -- particular periods of time that shed light on a universal theme, the specific that tells the general and we're living this right now. and it goes to an apple balm's point that you talk about, timothy snyder, who's written about it. this is a really fascinating couple of months here. it's not just fascinating.

it's really for people. about whether the constitution itself is, in fact, a durable document when a significant number of people have essentially somewhat quietly not explicitly, but opted out. that's basically what the senate republicans showed us this weekend and their base long ago. i don't want to be a -- try to be a purist about it, but if you're looking for hypocrisy. if you're looking for a vivid example of why, in october 1964, 77% of americans trusted the federal government to do the right thing some or most of the time, 77% in the month for goldwater and johnson were on the ballot and the reason that number is now 17%, so a fall of 60 points in fewer than 60 years, you don't have to look

much farther than what senator mcconnell, senator graham and their colleagues -- most of their colleagues did this weekend, which was simply a raw assertion of power over principle. and maybe that sounds glib. maybe it sounds like a homily or some sort of seminar -- >> no. >> -- but at a certain level you're in this -- are you in public life to continue yourself in public life, or are you there -- that is, is that the end? is that the purpose of being in public life? or are you in public life in order to be a means to something that is, as senator mccain would say, is a cause larger than yourself. and what we have seen is that senator mcconnell is a present master of the fact that power is

absolute. and it doesn't necessarily matter what you do with it. so, you know, we talk about this a lot if when we look back on the trump era what will it all look like. starting last night, starting friday night to the end, so we had a weekend where we lose -- cross 200,000 deaths from a pandemic that the president continues to downplay. the death of a supreme court justice. you have vice president biden trying to make this case for decency amidst this madness. this is it. it's all on us. it's on the citizens themselves. it's on the voters who will have to take pains because of the various complications and a corrupt postmaster general.

and the president is saying he wants a federal bench that will decide the election for him. you don't have to make this stuff up, you just listen to it. right? >> yeah. and donald trump saying that the election is going to be rigged. donald trump, of course, asking foreign leaders to step in and intervene. donald trump when he finds out that the military's not going to do his bidding on june 1st and beyond attacks them and calls them horrific names that we will not repeat here. and you are right, mitch mcconnell revealing once again, but it matters now because so many americans are focused on it, mitch mcconnell and donald trump and lindsey graham revealing once again that power is not a means to an end. power is the end itself. and it is the antithesis of what -- i just finished reading

tom rick's book coming out called "first principle" talks about how the founders looked at the greeks and the romans and got inspiration from so much, from greek and roman politicians and philosophers and george washington said this government that was created, that hamilton and madison helped create with a constitution could not function without leaders with public virtue. it was the roman definition of virtue. if we didn't have leaders that had public virtue, then we were doomed. that's what a lot of republicans were saying when bill clinton was going through impeachment. that's what no republicans, other than mitt romney, are saying right now. reverend al you've been around long enough, i've been around long enough to know how this

story ends. i remember back after 9/11 this taxi driver kept attacking the united states and he was just telling me how horrible -- he was from turkey, he kept telling me how horrible the united states was, he was driving me to jfk so he had an hour and a half to lecture. this was actually when we were in the iraq war. and he kept going and kept attacking and then at the end, i said, listen, if you hate this country so much why are you here? and he said, because in america, it's like a hollywood movie. you go through all of these bad things, but in the end, the good guys always win. and for give me for being cynical. he said forgive me for being too optimistic. i just don't think you can lie to voters in south carolina like

lindsey graham is. i don't think you can lie to voters in america the way donald trump is right now about the coronavirus. i don't think you can lie to voters in montana like steve daines is, and it's all on tape. this isn't opinion. it's all on tape. they're just lying because they think the voters in their states and in the country are stupid. i'm sorry i still believe in america in the end the good guys win and the bad guys pay for doing things like that. >> well, if you wanted a way to exercise and energize the base vote against donald trump and the republicans, you now have it. because all one has to do is to look at the supreme court calendar, affordable care act on the calendar, gender equality on the calendar, affirmative action, they're on the immediate calendar. and say that now donald trump wants to put someone in that seat to reverse all of that.

if there was any -- any reason that people would become energized on the democratic side and those independents that need to be swayed, we just have it because of donald trump's amateurist way that he reacted to this opening in in the supreme court. by him coming in and saying he's going to ramrod through this, and lindsey graham saying, well, forget what i said on tape, even though i said it twice, even though i said it after the kavanaugh hearings, forget what i said, which means i can't believe anything you say in the future which will probably make jamie harris the senator in south carolina because once you lie to me about one thing, why should i believe you about anything. this e any energizes it. i hope the president does it

because it will be his defeat. i didn't meet the cab driver you did, but i read the 37 psalms that said in the end we'll win. >> amen. >> amen to that. let's look now at some of the other stories we're following this morning. the devastating wildfires on the west coast continue to spread. the bob cat fire has grown to more than 103,000 acres, making it one of the largest wildfires in los angeles county history. the fire is only 15% contained right now. crews are hoping that lower temperatures and calmer winds this week might give them a chance to get the upper hand on the blaze. meanwhile, in oregon officials reported more progress in the fight to contain ten major wildfires still burning across the state. 7,500 firefighters are assisting in the effort. cooler weather, higher humidity

and recent rainfall are helping them make progress. the oregon office of emergency management said the number of confirmed fatalities remains at 9 with five people still missing. health and human services secretary, alex azar has barred the nation's health agencies, including the fda, from signing any new rules regarding products including vaccines. according to a memorandum the "new york times" received, azar said that power is reserved to the secretary. the move further underscores reporting that health and scientific agencies are undergoing a deep politicalization and we'll have more on this ahead. >> and you know, jonathan lemire, speaking of an applebalm

and other people who have written about this. that would be autocrats who are now autocrats in poland and hungary. that's what they do. they gut the state. they gut the government and they consolidate power as much as possible. donald trump has made it clear from the beginning he wasn't going to appoint as many people in these agencies and he wants to be a strong man. and now, they have stepped on the fda, stepped on the cdc, and now consolidated it in the hands of a man who is proven himself to be nothing more than donald trump's lackey. >> think about the early days of the administration, the image of the empty desks at the state department and that tone was set then to your point, that the president had gutted government,

turned away expertise and career officials, installed a lot of loyalists and political allies in the agencies. that's what the personnel department of the white house has been focused on particularly the last year or two. and now we're seeing it here with the pandemic, with as many of the other headlines we have, the supreme court vacancy hard to top. we should note 200,000 deaths is the total america has reached this weekend. we've been talking for a while, the administration thought their october surprise would be a vaccine. you can add the supreme court vacancy to that but they're still full steam ahead. the president had a number of events in in the last few days, including i believe on friday, touting about the vaccine distribution, he was quoted over the weekend saying a vaccine was moments away. we have shifted from months and weeks. we should fully expect people in the administration are saying there will be a vaccine

announcement in the next few weeks prior to the election. whether that's saying they have one created or ready to be distributed that remains to be seen but it's coming and there's a lot of doubt, wide ranging doubt about how safe that would be, the process it would be, and moments like this, what mika read about the hhs streamlining the procedure, to put it kindly, but making this decision simply from the secretary, who answers, of course, to the president. that will do nothing to silence those doubts that a vaccine development now and announcement will be purely politically motivated. >> and is again government by gesture, where donald trump like he made a big statement before the rnc that turned out to be a lie, is going to try to do the same thing before the election and donald trump gutting american democracy and what's

been built up through the years, in this case pushing scientists and doctors and medical researchers out of the way for a political hack that will do whatever he tells him and this reminds me of a quote from hannah errant that she wrote, quote, the most talented are pushed aside by autocrats and replaced with fools is still the best guarantee of their loyalty. you look at james mattis pushed aside, rex tillerson pushed aside, dan coates pushed aside. you look at all these experienced people pushed aside for crack pots. people like jared kushner, who continues to say what a great job this president, he did in the deaths of 200,000 americans.

>> he shuns history. >> and again, it happens time and again. and now it's happening with an announcement on a vaccine. so the president once again hurting himself and undermining americans' confidence with whatever vaccine does come. >> we'll talk about that more later and that piece on the coming storm in "the washington post" is worth checking out. let's turn to sports now. bryson dechambeau won the u.s. open for his first major title, he was two shots behind matthew wolff at the start of the final round but passed him in five holes and pulled away for a flawless back nine. no other golfer finished under par. the prime time emmy awards

looked different this year because of obvious restraints due to the pandemic. >> hey, was that me? but wait, if i'm down there, how am i up here? that would mean that no one is in the audience. that would mean that i'm up here all alone. just like prom night. of course i'm here all alone. of course we don't have an audience. this isn't the maga rally, this is the emmys. >> the canadians won big. can i say this? >> "schitt's creek" swept the comedy category setting a record for the most wins in a single season. and "watchmen" won for best

limited series. and "succession" won for best drama. >> i got to tell you, we weren't -- >> i like it. >> we weren't watching the emmy's last night. we were listening to your podcast. it was hard for me to hear a lot of it with mika snoring, but it's -- >> you put me to sleep. >> no, it's great stuff. tell us about it real quick. >> it's called "it was said," it was produced with mika in mind. trying to, you know, sort of rouse her interest in the distant american past. it's ten great speeches from dr. king on april 3rd on the night before he was assassinated to rfk's ewology, barack obama in charleston when he sang amazing grace, john lewis at the

march on washington. hillary clinton in beijing. really the idea that the original meaning of rhetoric was not just blather but was words designed to create action. so a look at how very imperfect and real public figures have stood in the breach at moments of consequence. and spoken words that actually shaped how we live. and it's also a reminder of the legacy we have to protect here as we watch all of these forces come together. this is a country worth defending but it requires every ounce of energy to do it. >> words matter. words can actually help improve the lot of americans. it can bend history as bobby kennedy said. martin luther king's speech on april 3, 1968, extraordinary.

bobby kennedy's speech the next day in indianapolis, extraordinary. they used words like ronald reagan used words to shape history. instead of just a blind, mind less -- >> to flout history. >> -- blind pursuit of power. however this turns out, it turns out. but again, when power becomes the end instead of a means to an end, then you actually have a government that is in serious trouble and by extension, a country that's in serious trouble and that's exactly, if you just look at the words this weekend of donald trump and lindsey graham and mitch mcconnell and steve daines, you see a party that is

philosophically and morally bankrupt. >> how about donald trump talking about the gene pool and celebrating a reporter getting injured. still ahead on "morning joe" we'll be joined by dick durbin as the battle begins over the supreme court. as we go to break, a note that joe's new book "saving freedom, truman, the cold war and the fight for a western civilization" is coming out on november 17th, but you can preorder now. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. joe." we'll be right back. ( ♪ ) ready to juvéderm it? correct age-related volume loss in cheeks with juvéderm voluma xc, add fullness to lips with juvéderm ultra xc

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i remember this guy, he got hit on the knee with a canister of tear gas and he went down. he didn't -- he was down. my knee, my knee. nobody cared. these guys didn't care.

they moved him aside. and they just walked right through. it was the most beautiful thing. after we take all that crap for weeks and week take this crap and then you finally see men get up there and go right -- wasn't it really a beautiful sight? it's called law and order. law and order. this state was pioneered by men and women who braved the wilderness and the winters to build a better life for themselves and their families. they were tough and they were strong. you have good genes, you know that, right? you have good genes. a lot of it is about the genes, don't you think? you have good genes in minnesota. >> just your run of the mill donald trump rally mocking ali velshi for the law and order

violation of covering a peaceful protest. and then whatever that was about good genes. it reminded me, obviously, it's just you can't help but to go there in your head. >> what do you mean? >> he's talking about it out loud. >> that wasn't written in the script. talked about his great genes. he did the same thing in michigan before. but claire mccaskill, i do wonder, we know who donald trump is. he's revealed himself to be a cruel man. i've yet to talk to people that i know who support him who don't say he is a cruel man. he is a mean man. they come up with their reasons for supporting him, nancy pelosi, aoc, you name it, they'll come up with a thousand -- andrew cuomo, as if he has anything to do with this

election. they'll come up with a thousand different reasons. we know he's a cruel man. can you imagine. you've given a few speeches in your lifetime, i've given a few speeches in my lifetime. can you imagine celebrating the agony of a human being getting shot and knocked to the ground and then calling it a beautiful thing and having people cheer the way they did. my question is not, who is donald trump. we know who donald trump is all too well unfortunately. but my question is, who are those people that are cheering for a man being shot for doing his job and being in agony and crumbling to the ground in agony? who are those people? what would their parents think of them, how did their parents raise them? that's right, i'm asking that question. how did their parents raise

them? and what god do they pray to at night that would celebrate, awe pla applaud, cheer, a man getting shot by a rubber bullet and being in excruciating pain? >> add to that, the person that was shot was a journalist doing his job under our constitution that celebrates the freedom of the press. this was not just an assault by donald trump on ali velshi. this was an assault on our constitution and the right of journalists to safely gather the facts for the american people. we're talking blind loyalty to this man. i said many times i have quit understanding the lack of outrage by people who support donald trump. i cannot fathom it. he is denigrating the institutions we revere in this

country, whether it's law enforcement or whether it's our intelligence community or whether it's freedom of the press or whether it's our elections and the sacred process of democracy. and now he's got his number one guy in the senate, you know, i am so sad about ruth bader ginsburg. when i called my daughter, who's in her 20 to tell her, she sobbed on the phone. my heart was breaking for her because it struck her so at her core. so yes, i am sad about ruth bader ginsburg's death. but the other thing i'm sad about over the weekend, joe, is the death of the united states senate. that's going to be the book written about mitch mcconnell. he's killed the senate with this power over principle as jon meacham said. not only is donald trump killing the institutions that lift this country up and make it strong,

mitch mcconnell is killing the united states senate with what he's doing. >> let's look at the latest nbc wall street journal poll, joe biden holds an 8 point lead initially over president trump. 51 to 43%. the former vice president holds an 85 point lead among black voters a 29 point lead among voters under the age of 34. up by 20 points among women. by 13 among white, college educated voters, by 6 among independents. and by 4 among seniors. trump holds a 9-point average with white voters. a five point advantage -- sorry, advantage. among men and a 23 point advantage among white voters without a college degree. and biden is up by 6, 51 to 45% in key states.

and among latino voters joe biden has a lead 62 to 26%. voters trust biden more to handle the coronavirus and race relations. biden and trump are statistically tied on who is better to handle crime and violence. and voters side with president trump to handle the economy. >> jonathan lemire you've been saying for weeks that donald trump wants anything, anything to be talked about other than the coronavirus, and you're right. not just because 200,000 people are dead and he's responsible for a large number of those deaths, historians will say it, get mad if you want, it's the truth. but because he doesn't want to talk about coronavirus because look at those numbers, who can handle coronavirus better? 51% say joe biden. 29% say donald trump. it's almost as if americans don't believe his lies anymore.

>> joe, they've been paying attention and this has been the truth since march when the pandemic began here. the american people after giving him the benefit of the doubt for the first few weeks and a brief bump in his approval ratings have largely disapproved of how he has handled the pandemic. so as you say, he has been trying to desperately change the subject and twice now they've leaned hard into law and order, after the death of george floyd which culminated in the president clearing lafayette square on june 1st so he could stage a photo op with a bible. and then the last few weeks after kenosha. both times they thought the play would be reassuring to frightened seniors or suburban voters that the president was cracking down on chaos in the streets, their words, but it has not worked. we saw his numbers are shrunk

after the death of george floyd and then in the last few weeks the trump campaign said their internals suggest slight changes in certain states, largely there's been no real movement here either, particularly in the state of wisconsin where kenosha, of course, is located, that they have long thought was of the three great lake they need to get one of them. they thought wisconsin was their best chance and now they're seeing that, they're growing more pessimistic about that. joe, as a final point we've been cycling through what states seem to matter the most in this race, wisconsin has been at the top for a while. arizona in the last few weeks has emerged as one because the republicans are so nervous about arizona and they feel if they have lose it, that changes their math considerably. if they lose arizona, keeping wisconsin, no sure thing isn't enough to get to 270. the state the president's team are focused on now,

pennsylvania. he goes there twice this week. it's the biggest prize of the trio. his poll numbers have been the closest there, but he's still down. and that's a tough climb for this president since pennsylvania, of course, is joe biden's native state where he has such roots. you assume such good turnout in the scranton area where they're focused on turning out the cities of philadelphia and pittsburgh and the philadelphia suburbs seem to be breaking hard from the president. so for trump's team it's turning out rural voters to try to overcome that. polls say it's close but that's going to be tough for him to do. that's where he's spending his energy this week and perhaps beyond. >> and jonathan lemire thank you so much. he has to because he has to win pennsylvania and with wisconsin slipping out of reach right now, again, not so early, but those numbers have been pretty steady over the past several weeks, five, six, seven, eight points

with wisconsin has been one of his more favorable swing states of the six or seven that everybody has been looking at this past year. you look at wisconsin and here you have a nine point lead for joe biden in wisconsin. you look at michigan polls for six months the trump team realized that michigan was the least likely of the swing states they could win. suddenly all eyes go to pennsylvania. if he doesn't win pennsylvania he's sunk. but rev, you look at the poll numbers and it seems -- i think it was "the new york times" yesterday that wrote this story, them or "the washington journal." but the lead was fascinating. they talked about how volatile 2020 was, the most volatile year in recent american history because of the pandemic, because of the economic crisis because of the protests, 25 million

people marching in the streets, d disturbanc disturbances, some riots, looting, political chaos. and yet the one constant this year, joe biden's 8 point lead. isn't it fascinating that there had been such a consistency over the past six, seven, eight months in the polls. and still with the crises that we're enduring, the shocks we're enduring, those numbers still holding steady in this latest nbc "wall street journal" poll. >> when you look at the fact that in unstable times, as outlined in that article, people look for leadership to be a stab lo -- stabilizing force. people in waves going up and down on the ocean, they want stability, they want to hold onto something. and this president has not only not been stable, he's been one that has incited the waves and

embellished the waves we keep going up and down on in the things outlined in the article that you recounted. and i think joe biden has shown a steady hand. if you look at wisconsin, look -- contrast the visit by donald trump that went in inciting things, meeting with law enforcement, not dealing with the family of the victim there in the kenosha. not showing a balance. and look at how biden came in, whether one is on one side or the other of the argument, people want stability and someone that can bring a sense of calmness so we can reflect and move forward and ruth bader ginsburg, one of two of -- saintly people that died this year, john lewis and ginsburg. and the reaction from this president is not just to let's mourn two or three days, it's i'm going to replace her right away. let's keep the turbulence going. i think that's why you see the

steady in the poll for joe biden. we want people that will steady us during rocky times. >> reverend al thank you so much. we look forward to your book coming out later this month and look forward to having you on that week several times to talk about it. thank you so much. >> thank you. mika, the rev brings up a great point. people want steadiness in times of crises. you look at kenosha and look at the fact when a 17-year-old kid from out of state, a boy from out of state, drives up to the state with an ar-15 around his neck -- >> stop right there. >> -- shoots and kills a couple of people. shooting wildly, acting like a rent-a-cop trying to protect property that's not his in a town he doesn't know, and donald trump praises that. that is the sort of unsteady

leadership. that's what turns off people. not only in wisconsin but across the country. >> we want to bring in some new voices to the conversation. nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. and historian doris kerns goodwin. columnist at usa "today" and author, tom nickels. and political reporter for "the washington post," an msnbc political analyst, robert costa. and former senator claire mccaskill is still with us as well. andrea mitchell, i'd love to hear your thoughts on the legacy of justice ginsburg. but also now on the political battle that has ensued given her death has come just weeks before the election. >> she would have hated this battle. this is exactly what she was

hoping to avoid. why she was hoping to hang on, even though she had pancreatic cancer and was struggling but still wrote a stinging descent in a july case, just recently was still writing strongly. the fact that she was failing at the end, at that point according to nina totenberg, who knows her so well, unable to do the legendary workouts we're seeing in the documentary, the fact she was still in pain and dealing with her medical issues did not stop her from doing stellar work. she was the most disciplined, meticulous person, her clerks attest to that, and we saw it in her writing. and the fact that she suffered incredible discrimination in the 50s, 60s and 70s and went on to become an incredible litigator,

arguing and winning 5 out of 6 cases in front of the supreme court from 1973 to 1978 being an important member of the d.c. circuit. but believing in consensus, she wrote in 2016 that collegiality was important. and it was important that all the justices, polar opposites of her, wrote personal moving tributes to her that they released on saturday. these were not written by clerks. these were intimate detailed comments about what she meant to them, their spouses, fatheir families as colleagues. so to the end of her life she was separated among her colleagues for the collegiatety that the court has managed to maintain throughout the strife we're talking about right now, this political hypocrisy right

now that we're seeing from one side is just incredible. i was watching last night the gymnasti gymnastics, verbal gymnastics of trying to establish there were footnotes to what they said in 2016 and 2018, and as claire mccaskill pointed out earlier, when lindsey graham talked about this and declared to jeffrey goldberg at the atlantic forum that if this were to occur in the election year he would not and he would likely be the judiciary chairman and save the tape, remember my worlds i would not hold a hearing, proceed with a confirmation, he never said then it was now okay because of the brutal kavanaugh fight, it had already happened. so there were so many excuses, so many rationalizations right now. and i think it's quite possible the voters will see through that. >> you know, doris, a lot of

americans think that politics is tougher than it's ever been. of course, all you have to do is read the history of the 1800 campaign. you know, george washington, even before that, before his death, thinking the american experiment was doomed. and thomas jefferson as he moved towards his deathbed thinking the american experiment was doomed because of the harsh partisanship. we can get through all of this. that said, this country works best when you have people like ruth bader ginsburg and anton scalia working on polar opposites, fighting each other every day at work as hard as they can, writing blistering descents against other people's opinions and when it's over like

reagan and o'neil being friends still. i thought the op-ed in "the washington post" by cascalia's n was moving, saying they were great friends not because they moved to the middle on issues, but they were great friends because they were great friends. they thought each other held an important role in this constitutional republic. >> you're absolutely right. i think each person with different views is part of a common american citizenry. and the best times we've had in the country are when you look at the outside movement, the civil rights movement in the 1960s and finds the levers of powers inside with lyndon johnson and they come together and the voting rights act is passed, a civil rights act is passed because they feel loyalty to the institution of the senate and the country as a whole. when my husband was in the last couple years of his life, we

were going through all of his boxes and taking out 300 boxes of files and material he had, and suddenly in one of these boxes popped out a picture of my husband, as the president of the law review, and off on the right was this little face and it was ruth bader ginsburg. one of only two women in the law review, one of nine women, out of 500 men at the harvard school at the time. and meanwhile my husband is writing a letter to his friend saying all the third year students are being romanced by law firms all over the country, going to milwaukee, san francisco, they can stay in the partners' homes in the summer while the partners koe vort in europe. and she cannot get a single job in new york. and does that create bitterness in her? just the contrary. she wants to open the doors for the people who will come behind her. even when the dean of harvard

law school said to those nine women, you're taking the place of a man, what are you doing here? they said we know what we're doing here. there's a power here, not only how she was able to have the team work. she worked so hard. she said i don't have talent like a great opera singer that i loved. it's work. she hardly ate, hardly slept, teddy roosevelt said there's two kinds of success in the world, if someone has a talent no one can emulate, but most people's success comes when they take their regular qualities and expand them to an extraordinary degree through hard, sustained work. and that's an incredible example she left to us from the beginning of her life to the last years when she's staying on the supreme court, keeping her work up, being a first year law student having a 14 month old

kid, her husband has cancer the next year, she's taking care of him. that's an example for us all to follow. the it's an extraordinary thing when that kind of outpouring takes place. it's an emotional thing lasting in people's hearts. same when fdr died, people wanted to be together, they felt lonely without him. that's what we've seen with ruth bader ginsburg. that doesn't happen often and it's a special thing that's happened. >> it sends a message to our daughters and our sons that public service still matters. there's so many things they can see on tv. there's so many things they can see online that suggests that public service is not the highest calling in america. but ruth bader ginsburg and her relationship with antonin scalia

and how they worked together, shows that public service still can make a great difference in people's lives, whether you're from a conservative or liberal family or somewhere in the middle. one more quick thing because i do think that in the trump era things are constitutionally more tenuous than they've ever been before. that said, can you just add some perspective here about supreme court fights because this really is not new. for me i thought this began with robert bork and later on ginsburg and then after that clarence thomas. but richard nixon and the democrats had some pretty ugly fights -- excuse me, i'm sorry -- with carswell and haynesworth, they were rejected too. this sort of thing has happened before. i'll remind everybody the 2000

recount happened before. and the supreme court we heard would never be trusted or respected again and that lasted about two weeks. these things happen in america. we figure out a way through them. >> this is why history provides us hope and perspective. that's what i keep saying. we feel like we're living in the worth possible time and it does seem scary. we have a pandemic, we have the new protest movement for justice and trying to get justice into the country in a much better way. we have an economic fallout. and then you think about what were the early days of the depression like when it was 25% unemployment, no safety net. the early days of world war ii when it was unclear completely whether we'd be able to beat hitler. he concurred all of western europe except england standing alone. in every field, whether it's the presidency or the court fights you're talking about. when we're in the middle of them, we don't know how the

story is going to end, that's what's scarry. we have the anxiety and fear of being in the a crisis. but hisly lets us look back and see it makes us stronger. we won the civil war, the allies won world war ii, the supreme court battles were resolved. that's the best things about the lives of john lewis, and ruth bader ginsburg, they fought through so many obstacles but they said we made this progress, remember the progress we made and e they become a hero one step at a time. we cannot give up in the middle of the fights we have to take it to the story and make it be the story we want, the store y of victory, people coming together. we've done it before, we can do it again you have to believe that or you're lost in despair. that's why i love being a

historian, history tells us otherwise. >> let's talk about lindsey graham. he has already said that he is debt set dead set on confirming whoever trump nominates to fill justice ginsburg's seat. lying so far appears to work for the president. we'll see how it does so in the election. i wonder what lying does for the voters of south carolina? here's lindsey graham in 2016 and then again two years later on this issue. >> if there's a republican president in 2016 and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say lindsey graham said let's let the next president, whoever it might be make that nomination and you can use my words against me and you'd be absolutely right. >> i'll tell you this, this may make you feel better but i really don't care. if an opening comes in the last year of president trump's term

and the primary process has started, we'll wait until the next election. and i've got a pretty good chance of being -- >> you're on the record. >> yeah. hold the tape. >> all right. >> so we're holding it, tom nickels and he's now pushing for trump to nominate someone. flatout lying. is it just following the president's lead or is this some political skill that's going to work in the great state of south carolina? >> well, i can't speak for south carolina. it seems to me that, first of all, i just cannot imagine how most of these republican senators who have gone on the record years ago now wake up and look at themselves in the mirror and are somehow comfortable with what they've become and the things they have to say, which is purely the party of power. purely, the whole republican

philosophy now is because we can. and i think one of the things that i find so striking about this, is that it says that conservatives, in so far as we can call them conservatives have completely given up on any hope that their ideas can ever be sold to the public. that they can win elections. they can advance their cause. they have become the far left liberals of an earlier generation, saying nobody wants what we're selling so we're going to go to the courts and we don't care how we get to the courts. it's amazing to see people of the right who -- when joe and i were republicans this was a big thing to criticize the left saying you guys are going to the courts to get things you can't get at the ballot box because you don't believe in yourselves and conservatives have become that movement now. to say as long as we control the

courts we don't care if you like us, the institutions of the senate, norms. most of the senators said over and over again, constitutionally we ever allowed to do this. that's right. but the fact of the matter is our system operates much more on norms and traditions than it does on written law. and this -- you know, we could potentially see a situation where we have a supreme court justice appointed by the tie breaking vote of the vice president. i want to be as optimistic as doris but that's going to hurt the court and the country. >> you are so right, tom, that we used to always criticize people on the far left more wanting to push activist judges to legislate from the bench and do things that they couldn't do in congress or with the presidency. and here you have a republican party that's -- i think because of demographic changes, is

facing oblivion and what do they want? they want an activist court, they are desperate for an activist court to overturn a blank of the constitution that's been there for almost half a century and has the support of 75% of americans. that is the definition of judicial activism. by the way, i told this story a decade ago. that jeb bush, i had somebody from pensacola who was a judge, who wanted to be on the supreme court, and asked that his -- his friends asked and his family ask that i call jeb bush and put in a good word. and jeb was as pro-life as can you be. i picked up the phone and i called jeb and i said, you know, he's a real conservative guy, this, that and the other. i know he's pro-life and i was

expecting to hear that's a great thing. i said, he's pro-life. and jeb said, here's my question for you, joe, if there's a law that supports abortion rights that maybe he disagrees with and i disagree with and you disagree with, will he overturn that law or will he follow the law? i said, well, you can ask him that, but i'm pretty sure he's going to follow the law and not legislate from the bench because that's what we conservatives claim we support. and jeb goes, okay, i'll talk to him. see, that's a conservative. that's a conservative. >> what republicans used to be. >> what republicans used to be and know republicans are not conservative. these republicans in the senate are not conservative. the republicans in the house are not conservative when, tom, and you said it -- maybe they're conservative, no they're not. they pass.

even before the pandemic, budgets that have the largest deficit of all time, the biggest deficits of all time, they undermine nato. nato that really was ronald reagan's, you know, best ally when trying to take down the soviet union. there's nothing conservative about them. and you are so right for calling them out. they're now the people that want to appoint justices that are judicial activists that will overturn a 50-year precedent that 75% of americans support. so i guess bob costa, the question is what do they do next? lindsey is on tape lying -- but let me play steve daines real quick, who's in a tight race.

here's daines lying to the people of montana in 2016 and again in 2020. take a look. >> i don't think it's right to bring a nominee forward in an election year. you go back at the history. you have to go back to 1888, grover cleveland, the last time there was ever a supreme court noc nominee, a vacancy that occurred in an election year by a divided government. given the people have started to vote already to put a nominee in that hyper politicized environment i do not think is right for the institution. so steve daines twice says, quote, i don't think it's right. now he says, we need to go forward. what's going to happen this week with the republicans. we've seen susan collins say she wants no part of this, for good reason because it would finish her senate campaign. we also heard lisa murkowski say

that. what are you hearing on the hill? who are the two republicans that may, may stop this in its tracks and actually help their party? >> the republicans who are uneasy about this, the charge of hypocri hypocrisy, senator collins, lisa murkowski, romney they're looking at someone who could step up. but based on my calls over the weekend, the idea that hypocrisy is on the minds of republicans right now is just plain wrong they're thinking through the final 40 plus days of this campaign season and gaming out the possible nominations with their friends inside the white house, with top advisers, they're looking to florida, judge barbara lagoa, she's been already touted by matt gates and they're looking to indiana, the

other federal judge there, amy coney berit. they think her nomination, if it happens could be a way to put catholic voters in a tighter embrace, perhaps with president trump in some of these swing states. this is the way they're thinking about it. as much as others in washington and new york are talking about hypocrisy, which should be front and center, it's not on the minds of my republican sources. you have to get that to understand how this is all going to play out. >> yeah and they actually -- they may not be thinking about it, but i suspect voters in montana and south carolina will. bob costa is using the barry white audio filter this morning. the voice is slowed down just a little bit on his feed. claire mccaskill play this out, if you will. what's the most likely scenario? are we going to be looking at a

vote before the election or after the election in a lame duck session? boy, how difficult would that be to push through a supreme court justice if the president were to lose and the senate were to flip to the democratic party which right now if you look at the polls, there's a good reason to believe both may happen. >> based on my conversations with a lot of senators over the weekend, frankly of both parties, my sense is that the republicans are going to try to change the subject off covid by the announcement of this nomination. but i am not certain that mitch mcconnell is going to try to force a vote on this nomination before the election. i think they will use it to try to drive turnout. i agree with you, joe, we're talking about that 29 to 33% that are already there and already voting for republicans,

but they believe, i think, this could be a galvanizing force for some people that weren't that excited, maybe evangelicals particularly because of trump's immorali immorality, that that will get them more excited about november. and besides that, it keeps those senators in tough states from having to take the ultimate vote. they can say they're deliberating, considering the choice. so it's not going to surprise me if they do the announcements and perhaps do the hearings and then wait to do the actual vote until after the election. >> andrea mitchell, the question is then going to be who is the president going to select? is he going to select somebody who's going to be considered outside the main stream of where suburban voters might want that

person to be, where women might want that person to be? again, the very groups that donald trump is struggling with the most are the groups that are likely going to be turned off by whomever he selects as supreme court nominee because he's going to be playing to that 29% base? >> coney berit from indiana was an early front runner she was already vetted, someone they considered before when they appointed kavanaugh. but i think barbara lagoa could be somebody coming in on the inside track. i don't have to tell you how important florida is, the hispanic vote, she's cuban american. she has so many things going for her. there was a lot of talk about her. wasn't someone earlier mitch mcconnell was talking about, but i think that is somebody we should be looking at. but clearly he is close to the decision, this could be as early as tomorrow. what's remarkable is they're not even waiting for the viewing for

justice ginsburg to be lying in repose at the court, for the other arrangements, burial at arlington we're expecting this week. it's so hasty and lays bare the political motivation behind it. i was struck by something you were all discussing, the spontaneous celebration of her life, the mourning that's been going on. it was thousands of people turning out -- this was announced about 7:15 eastern time on friday night. it's a friday, summer's night and all of a sudden people started turning out and our reporters there at the court steps, we were on the air but we were hearing reports from the scene initially there were people standing crying, then they started singing, they started singing "imagine" and "america the beautiful". it was the first night of ra sha shon, the new year.

there was a great significance in the old testament in the bible to those that pass during this weekend, this high holiday weekend. so people who are righteous and who are virtuous, who actually die at this moment -- there was just so much symbolism and emotion in it. by saturday night it was a national outpouring of people not only on the supreme court steps but on court steps around the country. i think they're underestimating her appeal also because of the notorious rbg to young people, to claire's daughter, amy klobuchar's daughter, young women i know, to the children, you look at the halloween costumes, the mugs, t-shirts, the lovely documentary and, of course, also the feature film in the matter of sex. there's just so much about this justice that we've never seen before. >> andrea mitchell, thank you so much.

we'll be watching ""andrea mitchell reports"" at noon today and every day right here on msnbc. bob costa, i think we have the speed of your voice back -- >> it sounded good. >> it sounded okay. but it was barry right, circa 1973. >> i think it's fixed now. >> but barry white, circa 1973, that's a good thing, bob. bob, what are you looking at this week beyond the supreme court battle? >>. >> what i'm really looking for within the supreme court battle joe is how much pressure dot conservatives and the federalist society in the evangelical wing of the republican party put for judge coney berit. she's a scalia clerk, someone the republican party believes in. so they're going to have a pressure campaign for her. keep an eye on someone like senator josh holly, a younger conservative who wants to put

abortion front and center in the decision-making process. and beyond that, you got to look at speaker pelosi, how does she handle the fury on the left from democrats about how senate republicans are handling this entire process. >> all right. robert costa, thank you very much for your reporting. >> and doris, we want to end the segment with your final thoughts. it was so beautiful, you talking about your husband and his remembrances of her. give us your final thoughts on the life and the legacy of an extraordinary woman. >> i think i'll go back to what you were saying it's an extraordinary thing that we're now valuing a public servant. a democracy needs people who are the best people to want to go into public life and the fact that she made a choice of becoming a public senirvant, my husband made the same choice he'd rather go into public life.

if one good thing can come from this, young people see how much her life has been valued, how many people are going out to emotionally respond what they feel about her. maybe they feel they don't have to become a celebrity in an acting world, on instagram. what they need is the hard work of becoming democratic person who fosters our democracy without people going into public life. sometimes the amount of money you have to raise to get into office deters people. the fact your private life will be undone but in the end there's nothing like the ability to make a difference in other people's lives. seeing different parts of the country you get your empathy increased, and you see different areas of the country in public service. it used to be politics was the road for advancement, true in the 1930s and 1960s.

and i think if ruth bader ginsburg's and john lewis' extraordinary career, and the fact people see how value they are, and they make a difference and the fight for justice all of your life, that people could see what could come out f it, that would be great. >> the time for people to see how public service can make a difference is greater now than ever. i talked to a friend who's republican who spent his entire life in public service, spent a good bit of his life in public service and he had every opportunity, all of his friends decided to go to wall street, to work for goldman sachs and other wall street banks making millions and millions of dollars. he decided to get into public service and fought the good conservative fight, the small government conservative fight. and now that he's out of politics, he's sitting there and questioning did i make the right

decision? it seems that everything that i fought for the republican party has now undermined. and it's just so important a for all americans to keep the faith. so important for young americans to look at the lives of people whether it's ruth bader ginsburg or antonin scalia, or whomever it is. look at these people who believed strongly in what they believed in and fought for it and made a real difference in this country. it's just so important for our constitutional republican to work. it's so important that they keep the faith. >> it's the real meaning of being an influencer. doris kerns goodwin thank you for being on this northemorning. still ahead on "morning joe" we'll talk to dick durbin about what if any the democrats can do

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that was washington's national cathedral marking a

solemn occasion yesterday by tolling its morning bell 200 times. once for every one thousand american lives lost in the covid pandemic. among those 200,000 souls cut down by coronavirus is adoline fagan, a young houston doctor who died over the weekend in the icu, she tested positive after an emergency shift treating patients with the virus. though her main task at a houston hospital was delivering babies as an obgyn. he contacted covid in july and as her condition worsened she had to be hospitalized. she was just 28 years old. just one of 200,000. joining us now, "morning joe" chief medical correspondent

dr. dave campbell and infectious disease physician and medical director of the pathogen university boston school of medicine dr. nahid bhadelia. where do we stand overall with this and where it's heading, dr. dave? you hear a lot from the president that it will go away. >> it's not going away. we're at 200,000 deaths. the world, worldwide there's a million deaths. if we use, doris kern goodwin's words and history for hope and perspective, we have to look back to the 1918 flu pandemic and realize there were 50 times more deaths worldwide and now we're sitting at a million worldwide, 200,000 deaths in the united states. we're going to double that by the end of the year, mika.

and there's no end in sight. we've heard from dr. redfield that we cannot expect widespread vaccine availability until the summer or fall of next year, despite other statements that have been made. so it is important to remember that the concerns that we must all have right now, today, with schools starting back up, with winter coming, with cold weather, must make us redouble our efforts to stop the spread of the virus using simple public health measures, face masks, hand washing, social distancing, particularly indoors and i would say particularly in your own home, mika. >> dr. bhadelia, a good number of people are using masks despite the lack of national leadership on this issue, do you expect the situation to get

worse before it gets better? where do we stand in your point of view in terms of the virus? >> thank you, mika. just to stress the 200,000 we're seeing, those are deaths, i think when we look back on this, retrospect, a lens we're getting a fuller picture of the people who carried the burr den of the hospital visits. we're going to see the people affected by the damage to our economic system for how long this was prolonged because we couldn't get it under control. and the biggest part of this, i think, success for any outbreak response, there are a couple of components to that. one is the response itself, we theed the supplies, the testing and we're lagging on those things and i hope we do better on that. the other is the behavior, the use of masks, the reducing the number of people indoors.

that's the thing i think we're still feeling it, people are using masks but there's pockets of deep resistance to behavior change. i think the reason it's been this way is because we have a group of our politicians, elected officials who have never placed emphasis on that, who undermined the behavior change component and that's what i see continuing. if we cannot get vaccine induced herd immunity as dr. dave said because we won't get vaccines to everybody by next summer that means we won't achieve the level to stop wearing masks for another another year. that's why the behavior change component is important. >> tom, a question for you, you had jared kushner of the white house saying that we'll be rocking and rolling by july on this virus, we'll be a lot better. here's president trump back on march 29th talking about what the goals are for success in beating this pandemic. take a listen.

>> so you're talking about 2.2 million deaths. 2.2 million people from this. and so, if we can hold that down as we're saying to we're saying, to 100,000, that's a horrible number, maybe less, so we have between 100,000 and 200,000. we all together have done a very good job. >> tom, a lot of people think a lot of these deaths are on the president because he didn't do some basic things that were backed up by science that would have prevented death. >> the numbers confirm that. there were plenty of populous countries in the world that have relatively decentralized government like ours, federal systems, the european union, which is more numerous than the

united states. we simply didn't have a national response to it. instead, we had a president who was mostly concerned about how this was going to play for him. in that clip, it's amazing to remember that he began this while there's just a handful of cases and has now moved the goalpost all the way to, well, i saved 2 million people so be grateful only 200,000 died. we're going to have a lot more than 200,000 before this is o over. it is a startling reminder that the president of the united states doesn't care about the american people. and he put the response for this in the hands of his completely incompetent son-in-law in a case of nepotism, producing actual harm to the american people, which is the other thing we sort of forget. imagine that if we weren't living in this alternate reality, this bubble that the president has created around his own supporters, imagine the

outrage if any other president had put his or her son-in-law in charge of a national crisis and 200,000 people ended up dead. and yet the president, because he is a brazen -- you know, he comes out and brazenly says these things, he gets people used to the idea that, you know, 200,000 people, what are you going to do? nobody could have done better. my son-in-law handled it. i really hope we are somehow beyond being numb to that because it is the most appalling dereliction of duty in being president. >> health and human services secretary alex azar has barred the health agencies, including the fda, from signing any new foods, including vaccines. according to a memorandum obtained by "the new york times" on april 15th, azar wrote,

moving forward is for the health secretary. the move further underscores reporting that health and scientific agencies are undergoing a deep politicalization. dr. bhadelia, i've seen you on twitter, it's hard as a doctor at this point not to be concerned about politics taking over and science and flouting it, but are you worried at all also about the reporting to secretary azar here on the vaccines and other critical critical reporting processes that are being changed in this presidency? >> mika, absolutely. the gist of this is while are mild mannered infectious disease physicians like me getting into politics? because politics is killing us

now. covid is the route but we are more resilient as a nation and what's happened in this response, and this is another example, a continued corrosion of trust. there's this bypassing of regular processes that ensure there are checks and balances and evaluation of science. so, this move -- generally hhs oversees a lot of these agencies but those decision-making powers are not so centralized. there are so many more scientists and so many more, you know, checks and balances involved. another example, for example, is the cdc. the changes that we've seen made to publications, the guidelines. since michael caputo left, there are two cdc guidelines changed. last week they changed their guidelines to stress testing in people who may have been exposed.

they stressed the importance this does not be transmitted like influenza so it requires more masks and indoor -- the danger of indoor settings. if we let science lead, we can get this problem back under control but we're letting policy continuously undermine the science. >> dr. dave, before we close out, tell me your concerns about the flu season, the upcoming flu season. we're getting into the importance of a flu shot and also the potential this could get worse as the flu and covid merge. >> well, cold weather is coming. the flu vaccine is available and it is recommended that everybody in the country that's over six months of age get the flu

vaccine so when we're all moved indoor in closer proximity because of schools, because of weather chilling off and the reality of what happens in many, many states across the country in the winter, it's ever important to not amplify risks of flu and covid-19 by avoiding the very simple measure of getting a seasonal flu vaccination now. it's time to do that, mika. i hope that everybody is going to their doctors or local pharmacy or have friends in the medical field will get vaccinated. that will go a long way to help minimize the number of people who get both the flu and covid-19 this winters. >> doctors, thank you both for being on this morning. tom nichols, thank you as well. still ahead this morning, one of our next guests says, mitch mcconnell is the apex

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so, what grade do you give yourself on the virus for the last six, seven months? >> other than the public relations, which is impossible because it's a fake media, fake. they're fake. i know you -- >> yeah, i do. >> other than the fact that i've been -- >> so, what's the grade, sir. >> i gave ourselves an "a" but the grade is incomplete, and i'll tell you why. if we come up with the vaccines and the therapeutics, then i

give myself an a-plus. >> president trump in conversation with journalist bob woodward, who last night shared that previously unreleased audio from one of their interviews from late july when the president gave himself that glowing grade. 140,000 americans had lost their lives from the coronavirus. now, about two months later, the coronavirus death toll in the u.s. has surpassed 200,000 lives. >> you know, it's a grading scale i don't think any of us understand or would be comfortable with. i think it's grading itself straight out of trump university. we can grade it from the very beginning where he was a liar, admitted he was a liar to the american people, when he had been told by his own people outside the white house in january that this was going to be the biggest crisis he faced

of his presidency, when his own trade adviser had told him that 500,000 americans could die. with that information, donald trump was saying that it was one person coming in from china and soon it would go away. that's not helping you. that's not helping any american. that would be -- really, that -- that would be like george w. bush continuing to say after 9/11 hit that there was nothing to see here, there was no concern. but he went on. and then he said that it was just 15 people coming in, and that soon that would be down to zero. he lied about china. he said time and again that china was doing a great job. he said -- told bob woodward that china was a great partner and president xi was a great partner and told americans that they were being transparent

about everything. now he's claiming that he's being really tough on china. so, you know, what's the impact of this? and why did he do it? you know why he did it. he only cares about one thing. he doesn't care about you. he doesn't care about the good of the american people. he certainly doesn't care about our standing across the globe. he only cares about him and his political standing, and for him, that's measured by the dow jones industrial instead of the number of americans dead. we could compare u.s. death rates with other countries across the globe. of course, you know, despite his lies, and even if you're in his personality cult, you know he's lying. you just choose to pretend the lies. but the numbers are the numbers

and they'll always be the numbers, and it's not a coincidence that if you live in wisconsin and you just go across the border, or if you live in michigan and you just go across the border, what do you find? you find a country where six people died yesterday of covid. every death is a tragedy. so, i'm not going to even say om six people died yesterday in canada. but for a country suffering 1,000 deaths, just south of there in the united states, even yesterday when our death count was down a little bit, over 50 times the number of americans died yesterday of covid that died in canada. can you do all the adjusting you want for population size. we still come out the loser. and donald trump still comes

out, president of the united states, who botched the biggest health care kisz of the past century, the biggest economic crisis of the past 80 years, and the biggest political crisis of the past 50 years. so, nobody's giving him an "a" gradingwise, mika. now he's going to try supreme court. all he wants is to keep distracting americans and have them forget that 200,000 americans are dead when so many americans would still be alive if donald trump hadn't spent the last six months lying to you and to your family. >> simple measures could have saved so many of those lives, and he led them a different way. you touched on not just 200,000-plus souls lost to coronavirus, but the other consequential news story that we're looking at this morning,

the death of ginsburuth bader ginsburg. with us is jonathan lemire, reverend al sharpton, historian and vanderbilt university professor jon meacham, former u.s. senator, now nbc news and msnbc analyst claire mccaskill and host of "way to early," kasie d.c., congratulations on your first show. 200,000 people lost to the coronavirus, and also the political discussion surrounding the death of supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg, dying on friday at the age of 87. it will be a bitter political fight to fill her seat on the court. the president says he will

nominate a replacement and senate majority leader mitch mcconnell says the nominee will get a vote. what's different now from 2016 when mcconnell denied the nomination of garland, mcconnell claims because the same party controls the presidency and the senate. in a dear colleague letter to senate republicans, mcconnell wrote, over the coming days we are all going to come under tremendous pressure from the press to announce how we will handle the coming nomination. for those of you who are unsure how to answer or for those inclined to oppose giving a nominee a vote, i urge you all to keep your powder dry. there are already at least two republican defections. democrats need four. susan collins and senator lisa murkowski of alaska said this he oppose voting on a replacement

before election day. meanwhile, senator chuck grassley said in july, if i were chairman of the judiciary committee and this vacancy occurred, i would not have a hearing on it because that's what i promised the people back in 2016. >> that's what he promised the people, okay. >> we're also watching senator mitt romney, who has not yet indicated where he stands. with just 43 days until election day, democrats have warned republicans to follow the precedent they set in 2016 when they refused to consider president barack obama's nominee on the grounds it was an election year. in early 2016 mcconnell said he would not give garland his confirmation for proceedings because he said voters should get to decide through the presidential election. the day after ginsburg's death, senator lindsey graham, chair of the senate judiciary committee tweeted he is, quote, dead set on confirming whoever president trump nominates for the seat.

this comes, despite the multiple times he said that if a vacancy opened up in the run-up to the presidential election, he would hold off on confirmation. >> if there's a republican president in 2016 and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say, lindsey graham said, let's let the next president, whoever it might be, make that nomination. and you can use my words against me and you'd be absolutely right. >> i'll tell you this, this may make you feel better but i really don't care, if an opening comes in the last year of president trump's term and the primary process has started, we'll wait until the next election. and i've got a pretty good chance of being -- >> you're on the record. >> yeah. >> all right. >> hold the tape. >> you heard him, hold the tape. up next, joe breaks down the political impact of senator

graham's shameless hypocrisy. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. 'll be righ. ♪

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joe, the moment the news broke about the death of justice ginsburg, a lot of our friends on the left and right were calling, first of all, very, very saddened about her death, but secondly, very worried about the election. our folks, our liberal friends were worried this would hurt their chances. our republican friends thought this was their moment they were going to have their october surprise. and you said, nope, nope, nope, it's the other way around. immediately. why was that? >> well, first of all, i'll get to that in a second. first of all, i've got to just talk about lind lindsey. there's a guy i came in with in 1984, a friend of mine. and we worked closely together

in congress. and i was talking to a couple of other friends who are no longer in politics, but who are friends of lindsey's and just came in and they are just astounded. just astounded that he would lie so openly. again, you're like, wait, in is a guy we knew and he would like that blatantly to the people of south carolina and america? when it's on tape. and we really can't get our arms around that. we haven't been able to get our arms around that for several years now. it's so interesting. lindsey graham was a guy that led the impeachment against bill clinton. we republicans were so shocked that bill clinton answered in one of his questions, it depends

on what the meaning of is. the national review and "the wall street journal" opinion page, and lindsey graham and i were talking about the deconstruction of the english language. you start with language and then the rest of culture collapses and soon dogs and cats are sleeping with each other and locusts are descending from the heavens, eating the skin off our flash in d.c. i mean, it really -- the absolute freakout the republicans had because of bill clinton and his lack of character and the -- him saying what the meaning of "is" is. we really did talk about what a horrific moral crisis this was. and lindsey graham was at the front of that parade. lindsey is not deconstructing language there.

lindsey's not engaging in moral equivocation. lindsey's just lying and he's lying openly, and it's just like anne applebaum says in "the twilight of democracy" that they're not even trying to hide it from you. they're just lying openly. so, steve daines -- by the way, steve daines is doing the same thing in montana. >> do voters like this? >> no. they hate it more than anything else. i found, and claire will tell you this, that if you say -- i know you're not going to agree with this, i know you're not going to like this, but this is where i stand. if you don't like it, vote against me. i did that all the time. the closest anybody got to me in a race was in the general election race was 62% to 38% and

i was the first republican elected in my district since reconstruction. people don't like when lindsey lies to their face and it's on tape. and he thinks donald trump can get away with this, so i can get away with it, but donald trump hasn't gotten away with this. republicans were crushed in 2017 and local and state and national elections, republicans were crushed in 2018. the largest vote landslide in the history of midterm elections. republicans fared horribly in gubernatorial races in 2019. and 2020 is not looking any better. and they keep acting this way. you go back to the question on why the second i heard this news i thought, uh-oh for republicans, this isn't going to go well for republicans, and they're just going to walk right

into the trap. it's because of something that senator paul simon of illinois when he retired said. a reporter asked, what was your greatest insight in all your years in politics? and the senator said, in politics, sometimes when you win, you lose, and sometimes when you lose you win. and i've looked at this from every angle that i can, and there's just no winning hand for the republicans to play here. now, hear me out. if you ask people if you're pro-life or pro-choice, you're split down the middle. i think it tilts a little more pro-choice. but if you ask, do you want roe v. wade to be overturned? as my grandmother would say, that's a horse of a different color. 75 polled earlier this year, kaiser family foundation, about

as nonpartisan as it gets, 75% of americans do not want roe v. wade overturned. only 29% do. another 29% who do want roe v. wade overturned, i've got news for the trump campaign, those people stayed with you through charlottesville. those people stayed with you through your racist comments about asshole countries run by black people. those people stayed with you even when you were caging children on the border. those people stayed with you through your worst offenses, your most inhumane comments. you telling people that they had great genes. you telling people -- getting

crowds to laugh because a man got shot and knocked to the ground. those people are with you. where will it hurt you, donald? among suburban voters, among women. you just look at the polls, among more educated people. voes are the people that you need help with the most, that you're going to lose. guess what. susan collins, again, going back to my grandma ma, susan collins didn't need this. my grandma would say, i need that like i need a hole in my head. i never really knew what that meant. but susan collins needed this like she -- like she needed another tough vote. no. this is -- this is a nightmare for susan collins. even if she votes against it. this is a nightmare for cory

gardner. the last thing he needs -- again, stay with me. i'm a guy that voted pro-life nonstop. stay with me. this is just basic politics. cory had the 29% already. those suburbs of denver, oh, my god, the voting turnout in denver among suburbanites. claire mccaskill, this is not wishful thinking on my part at all. this is just politics 101. and i'd actually tweeted the night of rbg's death, pray for her family, okay, and save your hot takes because they're all wrong. this is a nightmare for republicans. as somebody said on twitter, i'm quoting them, not me, donald

trump's just too dumb politically to figure that out right now. >> yeah, i was watching kasie -- congratulations, kasie, by the way, on "way too early" and i heard the representative from axios say the fallout for democrats. no, no. it's the fallout for republicans. you're exactly right, snow. i remember the sinking sensation in my gut when i heard kennedy had resigned. believe me, there are a half a dozen candidates for the u.s.s senate that are republican incumbents who had that same sinking sensation on friday night. this is not what they need right now. they are the ones that have the most vulnerable senators in states where roe v. wade is going to have major, major support, along with the aca.

along with gay marriage. so, you look at people like martha mcsally and joni ernst and thom tillis, and obviously susan collins, and they are really in a very, very tough position. so, i think -- by the way, what makes it even tougher is they are now in full display showing the american people what liars the republicans are. they didn't say in 2016 it had something to do with the party of the president. they didn't say that. the president had been duly elected by the people and they said, no, the people get to decide in november. they never said, if we were the same party -- no, no, no, they're making that up just like graham issic maing up -- this is the thing that really killed me about his excuse. he said it was because of what the democrats did to kavanaugh in the confirmation hearings. that tape you just played, that tape where you said -- where he

said, hold the tape with goldberg at "the atlantic" where he said, i would not do this, that was after the confirmation hearing. so, he already knew what had happened in the confirmation hearing to kavanaugh when he said that. so, it's just unbelievable how stupid he thinks the people -- he thinks the people of south carolina are stupid. it's amazing to me. coming up, a look at the front-runners for the open seat on the u.s. supreme court. amy coney barrett is among the top of the list. this is decision tech.

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welcome back. the devastating wildfires on the west coast continue to spread. california's bobcat fire has grown to more than 103,000 acres, making it one of the largest wildfires in los angeles county history. the fire is only 15% contained. let's go to bill karins for the latest on that. bill? >> mika, the fire stats are just incredible in the west. i mean, we have an army of

firefighters in california alone. they gave us these stats. they said there are 19,000 firefighters currently fighting the blazes just in california. and there's 2,300 fire engines and almost 125 aircraft fighting all those blazes. we had a little bit of relief. it hasn't been quite as hot or windy but it hasn't been raining. until it rains, the fire danger will remain high whenever it gets hot and windy again. the one thing that will change this week as we go to tuesday and wednesday, we will finally get some needed rain. washington state and oregon. but not in california. it looks like california, the rainy season doesn't begin until december so it will take a while until we get the wet weather. good news for our friends in oregon and washington state. let's talk about the big weather story of the day, tropical storm beta will make landfall in texas. this one will remain relatively weak. the big issue is going to be rainfall with this storm. we have a flash flood threat for about 10 million people from

victoria to houston all the way up through southern portions of louisiana, including hard hit lake charles from laura and even the new orleans area. rainfall totals could be anywhere between 5 to 10 inches, isolated to 15. if you know anything at all about the houston area, they are prone, very flood prone, even thunderstorms in the summertime can flood the city. we'll watch that story closely as we go throughout the day today and tomorrow. the good news, mika, no other storms are looking ahead towards the u.s. mainland the rest of this week. we can finally catch our break. back to you. >> bill karins, thank you very much. coming up, one of the top ranking democrats in the u.s. senate, member of the judiciary committee, dick durbin weighs in on the looming fight over the supreme court. "morning joe" is back.

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you said you'll make the

announcement this week. can you tell us more about that? the beginning of the week? what day? >> i think it will be on friday or saturday. and we want to pay respect. it looks like -- it looks like we will have probably services on thursday or friday, as i understand it. and i think with all due respect we should wait until the services are over for justice ginsburg. so, we're looking probably at friday or maybe saturday. >> all right. joining us now, the second ranking democrat in the senate, member of the judiciary committee, minority whip, dick durbin of illinois. great to have you on. >> senator, thanks so much for being with us. what's your reaction to the president's statement this morning that he's going to be announcing a new supreme court nominee on friday or saturday? >> well, you think there would be at least a decent interval to honor ruth bader ginsburg before

the political process begins in total, but apparently not. they are bound and determine, hell-bent on announcing this dom knee and clearing them as quickly as possible. >> yeah. what is your reaction overall to your colleagues, lindsey graham, south carolina, steve daines out of montana, guys that are in very close senatorial races this year, promising their constituents in montana and south carolina that they would never support the nomination of a supreme court justice in a presidential election year, and then both of them lying to their voters and doing just that with statements they made after the death of ruth bader ginsburg? >> i'm saddened for my republican colleagues. they have been cower ed by president trump. they've been ridiculed by those

in their own ranks, and mitch mcconnell -- he begged him for years ago to say something that they would stand by him regardless, they would not give obama an opportunity to fill this vacancy and say it was the right, proper and logical thing to do. four years later they reverse his position and they all march behind him. it's a sad day in the senate. unfortunately, it's going to add to the division in our country. >> senator, after what mitch mcconnell and the republicans did to merritt garland in 2016, there were many people that suggested that there's nothing sacrosanct of allowing members of the supreme court -- that number has moved, expanded at times, has nothing to do with the united states constitution, having a requirement set for nine. of course, fdr tried to pack the

court, and it was one of his biggest political failures. i'm just curious, though, if this -- if republicans go through with this, with the back drop of merritt garland and now them doing this, is this something democrats would consider doing in 2021? i know some have said no, but is this something you would look at, the possibility of expanding the number of members on the supreme court? >> joe, i know you want to draw me into speculation, but i'm not going to that place. >> no, i don't. i don't want to draw you into any speculation at all. i'm curious as an american and somebody who loves the supreme court and believes very much the legitimacy of the supreme court is about as important as anything in washington, d.c. so, no, i don't want to draw you into anything. i'm curious what you think about that. >> well, it is not just a question of legitimacy, though that is the bottom line. the first thing we need to do is

to convince america of the relevancy of the supreme court, that literally their decision on the aaffordable care act in the midst of a pandemic would mean millions of americans could possibly lose their health insurance protection. people then think, well, this isn't just an argument among the big shots in washington. this could really affect my family. we're not at that point yet. and i think we want to make it clear to the american people the importance of the supreme court in their daily lives. then the question of its future, you know, i'm -- i'm not going to go to the place of making a determination. i think that's far in the future. we want to deal with the current vacancy on the court and the importance of that vacancy when it comes to the lives of ordinary americans. >> it was so moving to hear what conservatives and liberals alike on the court said about ruth bader ginsburg and their remembrances. of course, eugene scalia wrote a very moving piece this past

weekend for "the washington post" about the special relationship between ruth bader ginsburg and his father, antonin scalia. i'm wondering what your thoughts are about the life and the legacy of ruth bader ginsburg, and is there a personal moment for you that stands out about what a remarkable woman she is. >> joe, i can just tell you that i have been struck by how personally moving this was for so many people. i've been here in chicago, headed back to washington today where i'll see the demonstration at the supreme court firsthand, but i have spoken to women in my family, who speak of her in terms that just show what an impact she's had on the lives of so many people. i had my opportunity to meet and talk with her. she was such a kind and in many ways humble person on a personal basis, but what extraordinary courage. this vaillant lady stood up

against the odds her entire life, speaking up for women and those who were often forgotten by society. and i think it's an incredible legacy. and to think she passed within days of john lewis, a civil rights icon, you know, it reminds us of the people in our midst who have sacrificed so much to bring us to where we are today and how it is all at stake now as we move forward with this election and with this process to fill the supreme court vacancy. >> it really does. >> senator dick durbin, thank you so much. thank you for your thoughts on ruth bader ginsburg's passing and, go cubs. >> there is that. >> go white sox, too. >> go white sox, too. how exciting is that. the president said he will nominate a woman. three sources tell nbc news that federal appellate court judge amy coney barrett has emerged as

a front-runner. barrett was on the short list for replacing kennedy in 2018. barrett is vetted and is a, quote, known quantity given her 2017 confirmation to sit on the 7th circuit court of appeals based in chicago. republicans thought she performed well in that venue and defended herself against allegations that her religious beliefs as a catholic would color her legal judgment. two other judges under serious consideration to fill the supreme court vacancy, barbara lagoa is a judge on the u.s. court of appeals for the 11th circuit based in georgia, and the other is amil, on the 6th court based in cincinnati and a favorite of senate majority leader mitch mcconnell. >> i will tell you, amy coney barrett will have a lot of appeal for a lot of

conservatives for a couple of different reasons. one, they know that she will not go south on any abortion ruling. they believe unlike numerous nominees from republicans in the past, she will toe the hardest of lines on roe v. wade. i suspect some political operatives may think democrats may attack her for her religious views and some might, because she is a conservative orthodox practicing catholic, that she will be treated like an alien by some of her political opponents and that will actually accrue to her interest. i know there's a lot of other candidates, but those are two things the white house are certainly looking for right now. >> let's bring in columnist and deputy editorial page editor at "the washington post," ruth marcus, nbc news analyst, howard fineman, new york law professor,

melissa murray, and former senior adviser for the house oversight committee, kurt bardella, senator advisior advie lincoln project. looking at ruth bader ginsburg's legacy, also looks at what's at stake with this next choice, which is within the president's right. what's at stake? >> pretty much everything. let me explain why. in her academic writings, judge barrett has talked about her view of stare decisis which means, let it stand. don't likely overturn precedence. she has made clear that not just with precedence based on the constitution, but with precedence based on statutes. if the supreme court judge is empowered to change the law, change the precedence, she thinks it's wrong, she should overturn it. that willingness to overturn precedent means any number of cases could fall.

judge barrett has been critical of the court's upholding of the affordable care act. she's obviously, based on both her writings and academics and her rulings from the bench, not a fan, to say the least, of roe v. wade and abortion rights. cases across the spectrum on race discrimination, on religious freedom, on gay rights, which she doesn't have a track record on some of those. but everything that has been decided by 5-4 where justice ginsburg was in the majority is up for grabs. >> howard, you've been through so many of these nominations. you've also been through so many presidential campaigns. i'm curious what your -- what your read on this is, as we're about five weeks out from the presidential election and people are voting right now.

>> well, first of all, i think mitch mcconnell is in charge. and he's not a betting man, joe. i don't know if you've been to the derby it, other than in the infield, but i've been there with mitch mcconnell up on the fourth deck and he's not a better. he doesn't like to bet on anything that isn't a sure chance. and he moves cautiously and carefully. and what he's going to do here is this. they're going to have these hearings, no doubt. i don't know who he wants for sure. the sixth circuit guy is his personal favorite, but that doesn't really matter. he'll want the most salable person to help him achieve what is mitch mcconnell's number one goal, which is to remain as majority leader in the senate. and if he thinks that -- and apparently he does, that hearings will help some of his struggling senate candidates in

red states get out their vote, then he will let those hearings run and get whatever political benefit he can get out of them while allowing susan collins and lisa murkowski and one or two others to stray if they must. i don't think he will necessarily take a vote before the election. if he thinks he can get away with it and win, he will pounce. but the way mitch mcconnell operates is that he takes his time. he keeps his powder dry. he surveys the landscape. he doesn't make any decision until he absolutely has to. his number one goal is to preserve the senate because he views the senate as the last s bastian against the tides and also gives him the power and the money machine he needs. if it looks like it would cost him the senate to hold the vote before november 3rd, he won't do it.

and he'll wait until afterwards. even if donald trump loses, i think he will then try to jam the thing through and say, we've got to do this because now we have the prospect of a democratic president. the only way to prevent catastrophe is to vote for whoever that nominee happens to be. that's the game plan. i think john barrasso, who is a reliable weather vane for what mcconnell is saying, said that today. he said there will be a vote before the end of the year. he didn't say necessarily before the 3rd, but i know mcconnell and he is the apex predator and apex predators wait until precisely the right moment to pounce. you have to watch this whole thing. >> alex reminds me that mitch mcconnell did himself talk about everybody needing to keep their powder dry for the exact reasons that you're saying, howard. howard, help me with the politics of this because a lot

of republicans seemed gleeful at the possibility of having this as a campaign issue. my first thought was that this -- whether they have it before or after the election, this is pretty much, i think, spells doom for susan susan coln in maine. it's real problems for cory gardner in colorado. it's terrible for martha mcsally in the suburbs of phoenix. you know, kaiser family foundation's poll earlier this year saying that americans are more split on whether they call themselves plro life or pro choice. but only 23% wanted roe v. wade to be overturned. how does this help republicans? how does this help mitch mcconnell? >> i don't know that it necessarily, does but what mcconnell is going to try to look at, and what he's going to try to game plan with the white house is to see which of those

potential nominees might possibly help them in a couple of red states where they're going to rely on the turnout of an enthusiastic base. and, you know, whether that will work or not, i don't really know. whether it will help donald trump, i don't really know. i think the expectation of the trump campaign is that we're going to change the subject. we'll have all this discussion about the supreme court. we're not going to talk about coronavirus. we're not going to talk about the millions and millions of unemployed. we're not going to talk about the 200,000 deaths. i think the american people are locked into that. and i don't know that all of this rearranging of the deck chairs in washington is going to affect that. i think my sense is that mcconnell is expecting that trump could lose. and mcconnell's objective is to somehow, some way preserve his majority in the senate at least enough to get through this vote

in a lame-duck. if they lose the senate, after january 20th, excuse me, starting in january, you know, so be it. he's going to try to jam it. and he's going to tell them the republican caucus, this is our last chance. as far as trump is concerned, trump's behind. mcconnell knows that. mcconnell's objective is a supermajority on the supreme court. he's already filled up all the circuits. almost all of his hay is in the barn. he wants that last, last thing, and i wouldn't bet against his getting it. >> so melissa murray, looking at these potential -- these three who appear to be on the short list, this announcement that is expected to happen friday or saturday. what does this tell you about donald trump's thinking or the white house's strategy in terms of what they want? >> well, one thing it tells me is that they want a quick confirmation process. two of the nominees were already

short listed for the seat that brett kavanaugh occupies so the vetting process for amul thapar and amy coney barrett has been done. barbara lagoa, there's been some vetting for her but she's gained a lot of momentum within the administration because she's a cuban american from a swing state that the president is desperate to capture in the 2020 election. so there's a lot of momentum behind her. what we know about all three of these nominees is that they will be 180 degrees away from the person whose seat they will fill, ruth bader ginsburg. while barbara lagoa and amy coney barrett are both women, that's where similarities will begin and end. they'll not share the same judicial philosophy our views of equality and autonomy that rbg espoused during her career. >> kurt bardella, i'm curious.

you like me, we're both former republicans. i remembered how conservative to moderate members of the republican caucus would run for cover whenever there was a debate on abortion issues because they found themselves in an untenable position. and while all republicans were celebrating, i thought ghoulishly, on the night of ruth bader ginsburg's death. not all republicans, but all the republicans who seemed to be, on that night thinking that this was a big political win. i immediately thought about susan collins fighting for her political life in maine. i immediately thought about tom tillis and north carolina, whose demographics has changed radically over the last ten years. cory gardner and now he's going to get wiped out in the suburbs

of denver now. i thought about martha mcsally how she's going to get wiped out in suburbs across phoenix. because not only are republicans conservative. there's a libertarian streak, even in the most conservative areas where they say, stay out of my checkbook and stay out of my bedroom. >> yep. that's right. my mind immediately went to my former boss, olympia snowe in terms of how she would have handled a situation like this. and you're right. for -- and claire mccaskill was talking about this earlier. for those members, there was that feeling in the pit of their stomach when this news hit, the moment they realized they're screwed. this is devastating for the senate republicans' chances to retain the majority. it's interesting this conversation about conservativism that we're going to have and the people who are celebrating rbg's death who claim to be conservatives who claim to be pro-life and when i

always think about when i hear that now is i don't know how you can claim to be pro-life when 200,000 americans are dead. when the sentiment amongst the republican party is, it is what it is with this massive casualty of death that we're seeing every single day. and i hope that democrats, as they gear up for this fight do not let donald trump or republicans off the hook for the death toll with the coronavirus. every single time a republican says the word pro life, they need to be out there reminding the american people how they've been so casual about that. so casual about leaving our seniors vulnerable to the coronavirus. sending our children to schools where they know they'll get sick. holding massive coronavirus spread rallies. this make america sick again tour that donald trump is on. i hope that every time during this supreme court fight we hear pro-life democrats are aggressive and decisive and definitive at labeling this party, the republican party, the party of death because that's

what the coronavirus has done to this country. >> well, you can look at that, look at the seniors who have been thrown overboard who have died. the greatest generation. you can look at children being locked away in cages. i want to go to the professor about this. children on the border being locked in cages. you look at the reports out of georgia of forced hysterectomies in i.c.e. facilities. and professor, it's just a stretch, if we're being polite about this. it's a stretch for donald trump to try to present himself and his party as the party of life in the age of the coronavirus and in the age of caged children and in the age of forced hysterectomies. and i.c.e. facilities. >> you're exactly right. there are so many different

accounts of what has been happening on the border, what's happening to women in i.c.e. detention centers that confound this narrative of a pro-life presidency. this extends to senator mcconnell. as you noted on this show before, there are a number of different relief packages pending at the senate that would help many americans who have been absolutely devastated by the pandemic, whether it's economically or as kurt says, the casual loss of life this administration has tolerated. the fact that leader mcconnell will continue to push through judges and hold hearings on judges when they will not work with the democrats to pass some of these relief packages says everything you need to know about the pro-life leanings of this party. >> new york university law professor melissa marie, "the washington post" ruth marcus, political analyst howard feinman and kurt bardella. thank you all for being on this morning. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage after this final one-minute break.

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-so you get deep, uninterrupted sleep. take advantage of our best offer of the year, with savings up to $500. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is monday, september 21st. let's get smarter. in a year that has already seen a global pandemic, nationwide protests and one of the most contentious presidential races in our nation's history, we now add a supreme court battle. the death of justice ruth bader ginsburg last friday dramatically raises the stakes for the election just 43 days away, as well as the future of the high court. so if you think it has been rough thus far it is time to buckle up. president trump said today he'll announce his pick to replace justice ginsburg on friday or saturday. instead and said a confirmation vote should happen before the election. >>