just a while. you can sign up for the newsletter at signup.axios.com. thank you for getting up way too early with us. stick around "morning joe" starts now. >> iran is a different place than when i took over. when i took over, when i became president, iran was a real threat to the entire middle east and maybe beyond. when i took over our military we didn't have ammunition. i was told by a top general, maybe the top of them all, sir, i'm sorry, sir, we don't have ammunition. we are going to win four more years. and then after that, we'll go for another four years. telling us how to run our country. how did you do what you came from? how is your country -- she's telling us how to run our country. if you don't dominate you're wasting your time. they're going to run you over, you're going to look like a

bunch of jerks. you have to dominate. >> will you commit here today for a peaceful transfer of power after the election. >> we'll have to see what happens. you know that. >> so, some remarkable things that, actually, could be both shocking and not surprising at the same time considering that they come from donald trump. but, mika, there you had the president of the united states yesterday saying that he would not commit to a peaceful transfer of power. that was a question. so let's, again, say that for the first time in the history of this republic, you have a president of the united states, who will not commit to a peaceful transfer of power. at the same time he's asking republicans to lie to their constituents and go back on what they said four years ago and ram through a supreme court justice.

why? because he needs that supreme court justice to vote for him on any election disputes that he stirs up. that's -- that is pretty much a five-alarm fire. >> that's where we are. and you invoked maya angelou in your sunday peace in "the washington post," when someone tells you who they are, believe them. in this case with donald trump, you've got to believe him. he ends up following through every time with pretty much everything he says. >> willie, what was the exact comment where he said something like if there aren't ballots, then there won't be a transfer, something along those lines. >> he said get rid of the ball los and there won't be a transfer, there'll be a continuation of power. let's be clear what he's saying, if you get rid of mail-in ballots, mail-in voting which has been used widely across the

country, then i will be re-elected. so there were two parts to the comment, number one we'll see what happens to a peaceful transfer of power. and we ought to think about getting rid of mail-in voting so i can continue into a second term. >> okay. >> and again, he and, of course, ted cruz saying we have to get somebody on the supreme court as quickly as possible to rule in my favor when i contest the results. >> along with joey, willie, and me we have white house reporter jonathan lemire, host of politics nation and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. his new book, rise up, confronting a country at the cross roads is out next week. we're also following the reaction to yesterday's announcement that a louisville grand jury decided not to indict the police officers directly

involved in breonna taylor's death. in louisville, two officers were shot and sustained nonlife threatening injuries. a suspect was taken into custody and several other arrests were made throughout an evening of protests. most adhered to the 9:00 p.m. curfew in louisville. but demonstrators took to the streets in reaction to the grand jury decision. philadelphia, chicago, new york and los angeles were cities that heard chants of say her name late into the evening. we begin with the president's plan to contest the results of the november election. yesterday he again refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power. this isn't the first time. when fox news' chris wallace asked the president in june if he'd accept the election results

no matter the outcome, the president said, quote, i have to see. but his answer to that question yesterday came with a much starker warning. here's the exchange. >> win, lose, or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transfer of power after the election? there's been writirioting in ma cities across the country in your so-called red and blue states, will you commit to making sure there's a peaceful transfer of power after the electi election? >> we have to see what happens. i've been complaining about the ballots. >> but people are rioting. >> get rid of the ballots and we'll have a peaceful -- there won't be a peaceful. there'll be a continuation. the ballots are out of control, you know it. you know who knows it better

than anybody else? the democrats know it better than anybody else. go ahead. >> the ballots are out of control? first of all, he's rambling incoherently. >> nobody is getting out the point. >> he gets out his point he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's rambling because he's losing it and has been for some time. he's a liar, too, of course you know that. 20,000 plus lies. here the president saying the democrats know that. actually, the truth is, one republican after another republican after another republican has said there's no problem with mail-in ballots. >> yes. >> even the greatest suckups to donald trump, the men who have shamed themselves the most and the women who have shamed themselves the most over the past four years by sucking up to this autocrat in waiting, they

have even said, there is no trouble, there is no problem with mail-in ballots. "the washington journal" editorial page, who has written some extraordinarily embarrassing editorials in defense of donald trump, making me flinch, even they said mr. trump there's nothing wrong with mail-in ballots and if you are really that scared you're not going to win, get out of the race and let somebody else do it. that is, of course, the sub text of this, every morning we sit around and look at polls and talk about who's going to win. donald trump is telling us who's going to win. he's telling us he can't beat joe biden. he's telling us that he's going to have to try to overturn the results of this democratic election, because he knows he's going to lose. >> and we've been talking about this, believe it or not, for a long time.

i went back because a year or so ago in context of impeachment but we added if he's not reelected. we've been expressing our concerns about what he might do. we were mocked by people on websites, well, he said it out loud yesterday. he said it loud and clear. you can continue to mock that, but i think it's well past time to take seriously what he's saying about this. this is not a man who thinks he can win right now, we know that, jonathan lemire you know that by covering the white house, his campaign, they are worried about the prospects of re-election and what happens in the space between election day and however many days or weeks it takes to count these mail-in votes is the space the president intends to fill with doubt and conspiracy about why he may lose. >> willie, what we heard yesterday from the president wasn't just unprecedented but

downright dangerous. coming at a time we did see more violence in louisville last night and we have seen outbursts from occasional american cities all summer long. i think it should be clear that some of those in louisville last night seemed to be armed militia types, spotted wearing pro-trump paraphernalia. we have the president continuing his months long crusade to sow seeds of doubt about the election. it's because, of course -- it started with his assault on mail-in balloting and we should underscore this every time, despite his claims of widespread fraud with mail-in balloting, there's no evidence of that whatsoever, we know that he commissioned, in 2017, after taking office, a panel to study allegations of voter fraud then because he lost the popular vote

and suggested there might have been 3 million fraudulent votes cast, that panel was disbanded quietly, found no evidence of voter fraud. we know the president and his team have hired an army of lawyers. he said the other day he expects this election will be decided in the courts. they're going to focus on mail-in balloting. they're going to try to invalidate a lot of these ballots. they're going to make it difficult for americans in portion of this country to vote. that's why since the death of justice ginsburg, there's been a focus on the future, how the court could decide matters like abortion rights and gun control. it shouldn't be lost that part of the plan here, part of why the president and senate majority leader mcconnell are trying to push in a justice now, even though there's some wisdom to say they should leave that seat open until after the election, making an incentive,

fill it in the lame duck but they feel they want to do it before the election, because one they feel it's a victory and republicans will be fired you, but secondly so that justice is seat odd the bench for any legal challenges that may come to the election. we shall expect there will be many in the days and weeks after election day. >> donald trump said as much and ted cruz said as much. we have to shove through a supreme court nominee and get them on the court so they can vote in donald trump's favor. i'm not exactly sure how whoever is that person on the court -- i'm not so sure how they even rule on such a case since the person who is nominating them is already said, before the nomination, that he's making the nomination to help him get

re-elected president of the united states. >> bit of a conflict. >> huge conflict. but i want to underline again. willie is right, donald trump has been saying for years, i'm not sure if i'll recognize, going back to 2016, the results of the election. never before has he been asked will you commit to a peaceful transfer of power, the question was asked repeatedly, will you commit to a peaceful transfer of power, and the president of the united states refuses to say he will. >> but pops a word in there continuation. there will be a continuation. i think sometimes his rambling is to get the message out and hit on those flash points. he's done this before. he said to george stephanopoulos, i will collect dirt on a political rival within and he did. when it comes to coronavirus, he won't mention 200,000 people

dead, he won't mention them. he believes in herd mentality. he means herd immunity he got the word wrong. and the president stated yesterday his push to get a ninth justice on the bench before the election is so he can strengthen his hand should the supreme court have to decide the election. >> i think this will end up in the supreme court and i think it's very important that we have nine justices. this scam that the democrats are pulling, it's a scam, this scam will be before the united states supreme court. i think having a 4-4 situation is not a good situation. >> you know, all of his allies, except of course for roy cohn, his attorney general, all say the scam is questioning mail-in voti voting. this has been going on decades.

it's been proven time and again say republican governors, senators, members of congress, it has been proven time and again to be safe. but there we go. reverend al, in any other point in american history, a supreme court justice who is elevated to the high court would recuse themselves. would recuse themselves for a case that involves a president of the united states that the president of the united states stupidly says outloud what he should keep in his head if he really wants to be good at corrupting american democracy. and that is, i'm going to appoint you so you will vote for me when i put up challenges to the election, i'm going to vote for you, but you have to help me get back into office for another four years. >> if we are to have any iota of a democratic process in this

election, the republicans in the senate, if they move forward as they seem determined to do with the process of the confirmation hearings or whoever the president nominates saturday and a vote, they are to insist they recuse themselves. because in effect this president has therefore not only violated the whole procedure they set up in 2016 against justice garland, nominated by president obama. he has, in fact, put in place how he can checkmate american democracy by putting in a judge that will guarantee, if proceedings go through the courts up to the supreme court, his re-election. and for him to be able to checkmate american democracy, is, in fact, a coup rather than an election. and this is the challenge the republicans have to deal with from the public if you insist on

doing what you should not be doing you should at least make sure they recuse themselves otherwise you've handed over this democracy to a whole situation that is nothing short of that we are now going into an autocracy headed by a man who is not able to get through a sentence without revealing his inner most thoughts of ultimate power. >> let's bring in staff writer at "the atlantic" barton gelman, whose latest piece is titled "the election that could break america". also with us professor of government brendon nyan. good to have you both on board this morning. >> barton, let me ask you about your report that trump will first claim victory before mail ballots are tabulated and prevail in a republican state

legislators to appoint their electoral votes to trump. that's your chief concern. talk about how that would happen. >> we're used to the idea that we cast votes and then the popular vote winner in a state gets that state's electoral votes but the constitution doesn't say it has to be that way. trump and his people are aware of this. the state legislature has the power, according to the supreme court, to seize back from the people the decision over who the electors will be. and trump's people are talking about a strategy in which they would go to the legislatures in some of the six swing states that are controlled by republicans in the legislator in both chambers and say you should reject the vote count because it's corrupt, because it's rigged, because it's filled with

fraud, and you should therefore appoint electors that would be trump electors regardless of the vote. >> let's be clear here in the swing states of michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, you have democratic governors but you have republican legislatures there. republican legislatures in ohio and florida as well. are you saying that donald trump's -- donald trump's campaign and his lawyers are talking to some in this those legislatures and telling them to overthrow the will of the voters in those states? >> well, i know that they've had that conversation with the head of the republican party in pennsylvania, who told me so. and i know that the pennsylvania senate majority leader and

speaker of the house are aware of this talk and have talked among themselves about the possibility. trump is running a campaign premisesed on the idea that he can't win enough votes if all the votes are counted and he has to change venues. he has to change to a different way of counting. the thing about a presidential election is that it depends on the consensus of the loser. if the loser won't concede, particularly if the incumbent won't concede he has reps he can work, there's no single umpire with the ability to say the game is over, we called it. the american system isn't built a single efficient umpire that way. >> let me ask, it seems to me we've already had a supreme court ruling earlier this year on electors that didn't follow

the will of their -- of the people in their states. would it then go to the supreme court of the united states to force the state legislatures to follow the will of the people in their states? >> they were different kinds of cases and it's not necessarily the courts it would go to, it would probably go to the court as well. but the electoral count act that was passed after the only other time e in history we had a debacle like this with possibility of the multiple competing slates of electors where two groups of people said i'm the state of elector for the state of pennsylvania, for example, it's supposed to go to congress. congress is supposed to decide who are the legitimate electors, if any, from the state. and the problem is the electorate count act is one of the most garbled statues ever

passed by congress, which is saying a lot, and there are a number of scenarios, likely scenarios if you have a split of control between the house and the senate, in which congress can't make the decision. in which you have both sides deadlocked. they sort of checkmate each other on who are going to be the people who cast the votes from, in this case, pennsylvania, and the problem is that when you have chaos going on for a long time, which is trump's strategy here, then as time passes, the president -- the person who's got the troops under his command and has the apparatus, or the federal government, at his command is going to take advantage of that deadlock and stay in power. >> so professor, this delayed count is coming. we've known it was going to come for many months now because of this pandemic, because so many people will vote by mail in

record numbers. we get to election night. we have the vote we can count that night and we know because even some ballots in some states aren't opened until election day, it's going to take -- no question of whether it will or not, it's going to take days or weeks. and the president laid out in that space this is what i'm going to say, we shouldn't have had mail-in voting, an anecdotal story of something that happened in one state and say mail-in voting is fraudulent. what do you see happening in that spate from election day until date unknown. >> we have no idea. barton layed out the possible scenarios and they're grim. it's essential for the public to demand a fair and complete count in that moment. that's the potential constrain

on abuses of power in that time. it's a period of unique vulnerabili vulnerability. the period between when votes are cast and we have resolution. there's potential for the president and his allies to destabilize that process, sow chaos and then use that chaos as a pretext to try to undermined the validity of the result if it goes against him or tries to change the outcome of the election. i want to be clear, this is a democratic emergency. sometimes you see things on television and maybe they're hyped up a little more than people think. this is something that experts are incredibly alarmed about. my colleagues who studied the erosion of democracy in other countries are terrified what they're seeing in the united states. this is straight out of the textbooks of how countries slide out of democracy and into authoritarianism. the peaceful transfer of power is the core of democracy. we depend on losers stepping

down and recognizing their defeat. donald trump has told us what he would do under those circumstances. the question is, what will his allies do? this is a time for choosing, for every person of good faith in either party to decide whether they are for democracy or not. and there will be all sorts of confusion and complication. we'll hear about naked ballots and mail-in ballots and a hundred other perm mutations of uncertainty the president is going to put around this process. but the question for republicans and all americans is do you belief in the peaceful transfer of power. do you believe incumbents should step down when they lose or do you believe this is a country that is no longer a democracy. that's the simple question we face right now. >> so far the answer has been silence, in terms of the alies, mitt romney came out yesterday and said the president's statements were unacceptable, it's unthinkable we wouldn't

have a peaceful transfer of power. beyond that not much from senate congressional republicans. professor, i think a question a lot of people have as they're watching this morning is what should the country be doing now to prepare itself, brace itself, not as an anti-trump political question but as a constitutional question as a question of stableizing the democracy. what should congress be doing, the courts be doing, local and state officials be doing to brace itself for the process of a president who says had e mhe not leave? >> i think the media needs to treat this as a five-alarm fire for democracy as it is. i think congress could extend the safe harbor act to allow for more time for disputed state outcomes to be resolved. but there is no umpire as barton said but no single person who can resolve this dispute or

institution. we're going to depend on the american people to come out in the streets by the millions if this election is taken away, if this result is undermine. i can't believe i'm saying that as a scholar of american politics i never thought i'd say those words. we had the peaceful transfer of power in a democracy for longer than any other democracy on earth and it's now being called into question. these are serious times and i hope americans will understand this is the bedrock of our system. mitt romney can't be the only person who speaks out against this. it has to be everyone. if trump's allies do abandon him, that will make a difference. he's floated many possibilities over the months and years since he took office that he hasn't followed through on because his allies weren't willing to back him. that's what's critical in this moment. donald trump told us who he is. everyone else needs to decide whether they're on his side on

this critical question of whether we are a democracy or not. >> and make no mistake, the professor is right. this is a time for choosing. this is a time, today actually is a time, because we know with mr. gellman's article, that actually a lawyer representing the trump campaign had gotten together in wisconsin to talk about what they were going to do to respond to do whatever they needed to do to suppress votes to get donald trump reelected. today is the day for the speakers of the house in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, and florida to all come out and say, and the senate majority leaders, republicans all, to all come out and say that they will respect the vote of the people of the states of

wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, and florida. and they need to do that today because we have a president who has once again said he's not going to respect the peaceful transfer of power. and now we're reporting that he wants to use state legislatures to undermined the will of the people in america. >> and let's emphasize what the professor said for trump allies. the question for you today is, do you believe in democracy. >> it's pretty simple. >> it's a very simple question. and our country depends on your answer. and secondly, i want to rephrase what the professor said in terms of where we are right now. because this is a textbook example he said of how a country slides out of democracy and into aut autocracy. this is how it happens, it is happening right now.

barton gellman everyone should read his piece "the election that could break america" and professor of government brendon nyan. thank you. we'll run through the grand jury decision out of louisville, kentucky that doesn't charge any officer with the death of breonna taylor but did issue one indictment for endangering her neighbors. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. watching "" we'll be right back. from prom dresses... ...to soccer practices...

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breonna taylor was shot and killed by police in a drug raid inside her own home, a louisville grand jury indicted one of the officers involved but not for taylor's death. officer brett hankison was fired for shooting bullets that ended up in a neighbor's home, was charged with three counts of wanton endangerment but two

other officers were found to have been justified in their use of force on the basis of self-defense. >> what my role as a special prosecutor in this case was to provide the information and facts to the grand jury. detective cosgrove and sergeant mattingly were justice department in returning fire because they were fired upon. i'll leave it to others to make determinations. we have vigorous self-defense laws in this state and that's something that existed prior to this case. i'll let others make judgments about that. >> breonna taylor's boyfriend fired a shot at officers after they broke down the door of the apartment entering with a no knock warrant. officers and a civilian witness and state attorney general agreed they did announce themselves. joining us maya wiley. good morning, it's great to have you with us today.

just your thoughts as a civil rights attorney. someone who's worked in a u.s. attorney's office and the explanation that the officers were acting in self-defense because they were fired on first. >> you know, the problem that we have here is that the system is working the way it's designed to work. which puts black people, which puts latinos, which puts native americans at very high risk of being killed. and this is the problem. it's working the way it's supposed to. but let me say what i mean by that. the way we've designed our laws is that police officers, in a case like this, that did their job so poorly, so badly, that a woman is dead, a woman who had no criminal record, a woman who they have a warrant to enter her apartment must announce only

because she had a boyfriend, an ex-boyfriend who they think is a drug dealer. this is important because one of the things we know about this case, or at least have heard, is that they got this warrant because officer james, who isn't mentioned in any of this grand jury proceeding, said that they believed that she was getting packages, suspicious packages from the ex-boyfriend, except in january, the u.s. postal service inspectors who are federal police said, no, we don't see any evidence that she's getting any suspicious packages. so there's information that there were not grounds to get a warrant to enter her apartment. so they create a situation in which by any means necessary they can go after people who are

black and it doesn't matter what their fourth amendment rights are. and that's what we have to fix. >> so, maya, let me ask you this question. this is from a "new york times" article, an investigative piece. and i'm quoting it here. judge mary shaw, who signed the order said she asked needed questions of the officers, reviewed affidavits, prepared each warrant and made the probable cause requirement by law. it established what the police said was probable cause. mr. glover's car making trips between the trap house where the drugs were and mrs. taylor's home. her car's appearance in front of 2424 elliott on multiple occasions. surveillance of footage of him leaving her apartment with a package in january. a postal inspector's

confirmation that mr. glover used her address to receive packages. and in as late as february he listed her home as an address. it was a very extensive surveillance operation and drug operation for some time and when they went into the three other houses they were looking at, they, in fact -- let me read from the times again. they did, in fact, find -- the swarm of officers beat down the doors and without incident recovering large quantities of crack and fentanyl pills, as well as cash, digital scales and signs to get rid of the evidence, mr. glover, and four others were arrested and taken to jail. i'm curious, because it seems to me that, based on the judge's and nothing compared to the number of judges you worked

before, but most jurdges i went before in my limited time in courts would have probably signed probable cause warrants for these police officers to go to the -- to go to this house, given, also, they had recordings between breonna taylor's boyfriend and her. so do you think the probable cause warrant was improperly signed over to the police officers? do you think that the judges that you worked before in the southern district of new york would have signed such warrants and found probable cause in this case? >> it's important question. because the issue is how easy is it to get a warrant? and what the officers told the judge and to what extent did it justify this -- remember it

started as a no-knock warrant and because she had no criminal record, because there were real questions here, they actually changed it to a knock and announce, that tells you something. it also tells us we need to know more because as i said there were indications the postal service inspector said they didn't think there were suspicious packages. so there is a need to understand more. i think this is the point. we don't actually have a system that says that someone -- someone that -- something that ruth bader ginsburg said as a lone descenter in a 4th amendment case that when you are in your home that is the place the protection has to be the strongest. here if you listen to that 911 call, listen to kevin walker's 911 call because it makes clear, he had no idea who was entering that apartment in a situation which there was supposed to be an announcement. and there were other witnesses

who say they didn't hear an announcement. i think this is important mostly to say it's not just whether they got the warrant. it's that we have a system that has so criminalized black community that there is simply not an opportunity in order to be safe sometimes in your home and no knock warrants and also warrants in general are areas in which we do put people at risk, we do put people at danger and that's why people are so angry right now. and that is where there was also a settlement in this case of $12 million. remember, there's not one officer who pays $1 of that restitution. so we have to create more accountability systems that ensure that the police work is done well and done right and done fairly. >> reverend sharpton, as somebody who has seen his share of moments and marched with families afterwards, what did you make of the attorney general's explanation yesterday.

he took great pains to say this is a tragedy, breonna taylor should be alive. he went on to say as a black man i've had these interactions with police, i know what it's like, but my job is to follow the facts and the law and here's what i found. what did you make of the way he laid out the case? >> he should follow the facts. the fact is that the gentleman that they accused of being a drug dealer was not in the apartment. so you first have to start with the fact that they were going in saying they were pursuing somebody that was not there and, in fact, according to some reports was in custody. secondly, you have to deal with the fact that if you're going to talk about self-defense, self-defense didn't start when the boyfriend fired at who he thought were intruders self-defense started when he thought he was being intruded upon and was defending him in

his girlfriend's apartment. it seems sbrisiinteresting to m want to start self-defense with the police and not the man who thought he was a victim of the break in. i thought it was very affirming the reason we protest saying black lives matter that the only indictment here was the recklessness of the neighbors, nothing addressing the body, the dead body of breonna taylor, saying she does not matter. her life doesn't matter. we're not dealing with this. we're not dealing with the police came in, killed someone who had nothing to do with a crime, who was not a suspect in a crime, and even if if they were, you don't have the right to kill them. she became collateral damage and the attorney general said he's following the facts. and by the way, all of you influencers and celebrities, you don't know kentucky coming in here, this is not who we are. this is a cultural war rather than a legal process. we came in and stayed there in

support because the family of breonna taylor asked for that and we're going to stay there until we get laws for all 50 states that stops this kind of miscarriage of justice. >> reverend al and maya wiley, thank you both for being on this morning. coming up, president trump once again undercuts health experts saying the white house can overrule the fda as the agency pushes for tougher coronavirus vaccine guidelines. "morning joe" is coming right back. e guidelines "morning joe" is coming right back still a father. but now a friend. still an electric car. just more electrifying. still a night out. but everything fits in. still hard work. just a little easier. still a legend. just more legendary. chevrolet. making life's journey, just better.

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you've been a big fan of cuomo, the shutdown in new york, you lauded new york for their policy. new york had the highest death rate in the world how can we jump up and down and say governor did a great job, he had the highest death rate in the world. >> you misconstrued that senator, and you've done that in the past.

they got hit badly and made mistakes. if you look at what's going on right now, the things that are going on in new york to get their test positivity 1% or less is because they are looking at the guidelines that we have put together from the task force of the four or five things of masks, social distancing, outdoors more than indoors, avoiding crowds, and washing hands. >> or they developed enough community immunity that they're no longer having the pandemic because they have enough immunity in new york city to stop -- >> i challenge that senator because -- >> i'm afraid -- >> please sir, i would like to do this because this happens with senator rand all the time. you are not listening to what the director of the cdc said that in new york it's about 22% if you believe 22% is herd immunity, i believe you're alone in that. >> there's also the preexisting immunity of those who have cross reactivity which is about a third of the --

>> we'll have to reserve this discussion we have other senators. >> i'd like to talk to you about that also because there was a study that recently came out that preexisting immunity to coronavirus is that a common cold do not cross react with the covid-19. >> it really is incredible that a guy that goes around calling himself a doctor has spread more misinformation. >> and walked around with the coronavirus. >> by the way, i've got to say, it is -- he is first among many who have been competing in that chamber as republicans to spread the most misinformation that could kill people. >> and the virus. he had it and walked around -- >> here's a guy, yeah, who had it, knew he had been tested for it, was spreading it around before he got his test results back. and now is talking about new york having herd immunity when it's only 22% as dr. anthony fauci said.

and we find out yesterday, willie, only 10% of americans from what our doctors and what trump's own administration has been able to figure out -- only 10% of americans have so far been infected with the coronavirus and we have 200,000 deaths. add that up, multiply that out, we're in big trouble if people listen to rand paul and other conspiracy theorists like rand pall instead of people like dr. fauci. >> and dr. fauci pointed out only 10% of americans have had coronavirus, like dr. redfield said. but i can't believe we're talking about herd immunity despite everything that experts have told us what that idea is. dr. rand paul is an ophthalmologist, which is a great kind of doctor to be, but i'll take dr. fauci's expertise

over his. yesterday the fda was accused of playing politics when it comes to a coronavirus vaccine. the fda was planning to have stricter guidelines for the potential coronavirus vaccine, the president reacted yesterday in the white house briefing room. >> we're looking at that. that has to be approved by the white house, we may or may not approve it. that sounds like a political move. why would they have to be adding great length to the process. we want to have people not get sick. the vaccine is very important, it's the final step. i believe it's going to be the final step. and no, we're looking at that, but i think it's -- i think that was a political move more than anything else. >> here we go. again, it's as orwellian as it gets, willie. he's saying that the fda,

following practiced medical and scientist procedures and getting peer review of this process, is political. when, in fact, what they're doing is they're following their own best practices that the fda has always followed in being cautious. this is running ahead at such a rapid rate, it's breaking down every barrier that's put in place to try to keep americans safe. and donald trump is saying we're going to make it less political by taking it out of the doctors' and the scientists' hands at the fda and pulling it in to me, the wizard of oz, the grand puba to make scientific decisions on vaccines. there's a reason now americans are saying they don't trust this vaccine when it's coming out if this process continues going this way. >> and there are experts who many now are rolling their eyes at the president saying we're

going to have a vaccine by election day, perhaps as the president has said again and again. they say, no, we're not. and to your point are you going to trust the man who has proven he will say and do anything to get himself elected, including not respecting the outcome of the election or the career professionals of the doctors and scientists working on this problem at the fda and cdc. >> the guy who has been lying about medicine and science for seven, eight months now. the guy who will say the exact opposite of what dr. fauci has been saying. it's interesting, rand paul and these other stooges have been saying that dr. fauci is way off course and he's being extreme. and he's being hysterical. when dr. fauci was saying publicly what donald trump was saying privately to bob woodward. we've got it on tape. so here we are again, the fda,

dr. fauci once again trying to go out, and donald trump's republican party seems focus on continuing to lie to the american people and lead to the deaths of again -- >> look at the number. >> -- many more americans. 203,000 americans dead, that's only 10% of the population -- according to donald trump's cdc director only 10% of the population has been infected with the virus and we have 200,000 deaths. multiply that out and see where it goes if we continue to listen to people like donald trump and rand paul. over a million people will die if we continue to listen to people like rand paul, who's talking about herd immunity. donald trump talking about herd mentality. that leads to the death of millions of americans. it's in the numbers. it's in the math. i'm not good at math, okay, i'm not good at math.

but even i can look at the numbers, and if we follow rand paul's path, donald trump's path, over 2 or 3 million people will die. >> and we're having to check senators at the moment. and we've seen -- remember what dr. redfield said last week and president trump came to the podium said he was confused last week. we heard that again yesterday from scott atlas, who has become president trump's favorite doctor on the coronavirus task force saying dr. redfield is wrong about that 10% number. so donald trump has a cleanup crew come in behind the experts after they say something that is, again, scientific consensus. >> the president has time and again undermined his public health officials the highest

levels and is sowing doubt and suggesting that he knows better than the people who have devoted their lives to public health and science. you're right, last week he undermined the head of the cdc on a vaccine timetable, as well as the usage and effectiveness of masks. we saw it again yesterday. and also you mentioned dr. at s dr. atlas, the president also went to dr. atlas to suggest that public health officials, we're now in fall and the cold and flu season beginning, might be confusing the common cold or flu with covid to try to sort of up those numbers, up the coronavirus numbers to make the president look worse. this is a president seeing conspiracy in every corner and is again, trying to suggest that the american people can't trust the officials of public life because in the president's estimation they're all out to get him. it's connected to our conversation earlier in the hour about mail-in ballots, the

peaceful transfer of power. this is a president sowing doubt across the landscape here in all facets of life, painting himself as the victim of a conspiracy, seemingly, out to get him. and there are also emboldening his supporters. and therefore not ruling out a peaceful transfer of power. the vaccine timetable is going to be watched so carefully six months until the election. drug companies and public health officials believe a vaccine could be ready by years end, very few said by november 3rd. we also know the president and his political team are counting on that as one of their october surprises to have some sort of announcement about the vaccine. the question is, will he allow it to have the scrutiny andry governor -- rigor it deserves. >> adults between 20 and 29 accounted for the greatest portion of new coronavirus cases, over 20% between june and

august, suggesting young adults are likely contributing to community spread of the virus and are not as protected as previously believed. according to a new cdc report, the average age of confirmed covid-19 patients dropped from 46 years in may to 38 in august. as a growing number of young adults contracted the virus. young adults are more likely to have mild or no symptoms which could add to the belief they are not at risk while contributing to asymptomatic spread of the virus to others, according to the report. joining us chief medical correspondent dr. dave campbell. we're learning so much about this virus. some people have long-term symptoms and it really drags out for them. we have a friend to this show who's really suffering still right now after weeks and weeks. what are we learning about young

adults and their ability to spread the virus? that along with the policies that we have in place to try to keep people safe, are they meshing? >> the cdc said even more than what you just mentioned, mika. they looked specifically at the changing ages for people infected. they also found, down here in the south, that 20 to 39-year-olds were increasing in their likelihood of being infected and transmitting the infection to older people. when they compared the younger group to the older group, knowing it was the older folks early in the pandemic that were more likely to be infected. there's now a strong suggestion that we're seeing as increasing numbers of young people become infected that they are thereby transmitting it to older people because there is a delay of about one week in the indegreesing number of young people compared to the

increasing number of old people. let me be clear, we see as the number of young people that are infected increases, about a week later, the number of older people that get infected goes up. we know the inoculation period and the period of time during which the virus grows inside you is about a week. so the cdc is now showing us in real time that young kids during the summer and now that we're back in school, young people, college-age kids are increasing in the likelihood that they're going to transmit the coronavirus to older people. thereby, giving it with an increasing rate to those at risk for more severe illness, mika. >> dr. dave campbell, thank you very, very much. we turn back now to president trump's plan to contest the results of the november

election. coming into sharp focus yesterday when he again refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power. as we've said, this isn't the first time, including when fox news' chris wallace asked the president in june if he'd accept the results regardless of the outcome, the president said, quote, i'd have to see. but his answer yesterday came with a starker warning. here is the exchange followed by what he said about the courts. >> win, lose or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transfer of power after the election? there has been rioting a little, across this country, in your so-called red and blue states, will you commit to making sure there is a peaceful transfer ral of power after the election?

>> we have to see what happens. i've been complaining about the ballots -- >> i understand that, people have been rioting. >> we want to -- get rid of the ballots and we'll have a peaceful -- there won't be a peaceful, frankly, there will be a continuation. the ballots are out of control. you know it and the democrats know it better than anybody else. i think this will end up in the supreme court. i think it's very important that we have nine justices. this scam that the democrats are pulling, it's a scam, this scam will be before the united states supreme court. and i think having a 4-4 situation is not a good situation. >> again, i just have to reiterate, he's just -- first of all, two things. first of all, he's just lying when he talks about all of his problems with the ballots. get rid of the ballots there

won't be a transfer because he says the democrats know what a scam the ballots are. it's just a lie. talk to republicans. republicans have, over the past several months, defending mail-in ballots, have been defending absentee ballots. >> he's lying. >> yes. he's lying to himself, conspiracy theorists. he's desperately trying to do what he can to have a reason to dispute the election. here's the subtext. it's embarrassing. if you're running in a close race, you have to be horrified by the fact that you have a president at the top of your ticket who is admitting to americans that he knows he's a loser. donald trump already knows he's a loser because he's talking

like a loser. he's talking like a loser who knows he doesn't have a chance to win. which is interesting because, i don't know, the polls don't look that bad for him. i know -- alex, do we have any polls today? let's put up -- we got a couple polls today. i haven't seen them yet. let's see how close the race is. it seems to me that they keep saying this race is close. what do we have? so this is a quinnipiac poll. he's losing by 10 points. that is pretty bad. gees, 42%. that's -- oh. this is a marguette university law poll -- okay. never mind. he is losing badly. as my dad was say, he's getting his clock cleaned. and it's pretty bad. losing by ten points. >> but this is a consequential moment for having him saying

outloud. >> yeah. he knows he's going to lose. so let me correct my last statement. doesn't look like it's that close of a race right now. so he's setting this up by trying to draw out the possibility of a challenge. but again, republicans haven't followed him down this rabbit hole, at least in the senate. they're not going around trying to under mind democracy, most of them saying mail-in ballots are fine. but yeah, get rid of the ballots, there won't be a transfer. we can't underline it in enough. this is a president going back to 2016 saying i don't know if i'm going to accept the results or not. he's never been asked, i don't think, this question, will you exit to a peaceful transfer of power. i'm wondering what ben sasse

thinks in nebraska of the president of the united states refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power. i wonder what cory gardner in colorado, what martha mcsally in arizona, what thom tillis -- hey, thom, the president of the united states for the first time in the great history of the this constitutional republic said he would not commit to a peaceful transfer. thom we grew up in the same region. i think you're a southerner. i'm not sure where you grew up. but at least in the schools i grew up, university of alabama, university of florida, we were taught that what separates america from every other country in the world is for how long this grand constitutional republic has had a peaceful transfer of power.

that, thom, in america, my teachers in mississippi and in alabama and in georgia, pensacola, florida, they taught me that what separates us from countries that aren't free is that we have a peaceful transfer of power and somebody leaves office and somebody else comes into office without tanks having to roll down our streets. it's been really something that we've taken great pride in this republic for a long time. and thom tillis, i'm wondering, are you proud of that? thom, do you believe what makes america great is that every president, before donald trump, has never questioned whether there would be a peaceful

transfer of power. susan collins, i'm wondering about maine, i know a little bit about maine, not as much as mika does, she's been there every year of her life. do they teach that in maine schools? this morning in bank gore, are they cheating the kids in your state -- are they cheating kids in augusta that what separates america from, i don't know, say belarus, from russia, from china, is that in our country, you have leaders who that leave office and others that go into office because there's a

peaceful transfer of power, susan collins? and i'm wondering susan collins, will you speak out today and condemn the president of the united states for being the first president in over 240 years of this constitutional republic to not guarantee and peaceful transfer of power? >> you know, i could play just as i am in the background and we could have this be an invitation for you to step forward and not commit your life to jesus christ but instead commit yourself to the basic outlines of american democracy. susan collins, will you condemn today the president of the united states when asked, will you commit to a peaceful transfer of power, refused to answer the -- now, it's i don't think it's hard. i don't think you have to wring

your hands and say this is so disturbing. it's interesting, susan, because i remember you saying that when you voted for brett kavanaugh that brett kavanaugh respected the 50-year -- almost 50-year precedent of roe v. wade because he respected precedent and then, of course, he didn't quite vote that way. so you're wrong there. i also remember more to this point, susan collins, when you said, after impeachment that you voted against the impeachment of a president who used his position as commander in chief in an american foreign policy aid to a struggling democracy invaded by russia. blackmail that leaded to dig up dirt on his political opponent in america. you said at the end of that, do you remember what you said? i don't know if you remember

what you said? do you remember what you said? you said that donald trump had learned his lesson. of course he fired american hero lieutenant-colonel vindman later that week. he started interfering in roger stone's sentencing later that week. but susan collins, will you today step forward and condemn the president of the united states, like mitt romney, for saying that he would not guarantee a peaceful transfer of power. this, i know we have so much stuff coming at us every day, susan. i know it's hard because this president does so many things every day that undermines american democracy. i know it's exhausting because this president every day shatters constitutional norms,

shatters political norms. but this is elmental. this is a first principle of this republic's founding. this is what general george washington did as president of the united states when he decided, after eight years in the presidency, that he would set this precedent, like roman times, and do his duty to his republic and then go back to his farm. will susan collins, you, today, please, for the sake of america and thom tillis, will you please -- and cory gardner, can you all please today, for the sake of america, tell the

president of the united states how wrong he was, how wrong he continues to be, to let me -- let me give you the question again, to not answer the question from a reporter, will you commit to a peaceful transfer of power? this is as easy of a test as you will ever be given in american politics. i hope, for the sake of yourself and the sake of your party and the sake of your country, that you just do the right thing. >> let's bring in contributor mike barnicle. white house correspondent yamiche al cinder. national security expert, columnist and author of the book "the death of expertise" tom mick ni nickels. benjamin wittes. and professor of global

politics, columnist for "the washington post" and host of power corrupts podcast, brian claus joins us. great to have you all on board this hour. we'll begin right there. tom, your thoughts on what seems to be a simple question for republican lawmakers, but also on the president's pretty consequential statements yesterday. i feel like so many times he puts things out there as a joke or throws them off to the side. but we're learning to believe him and to hear what he says. and he talked about a continuation of power. what's your take? >> the president is engaging in psychological warfare against the american people. he's throwing the statements out there in part because he himself is incapable of ever giving any other answer. if you ask him will you accept the outcome of any fair

competition, it is in donald trump's nature to say no unless he wins. because otherwise it's not fair. and that's part of what was buried in what he said. not only will he not commit to a peaceful transfer of power, but he basically said if the votes are counted fairly, there won't be a transfer of power, that is putin, nor e ga, every dictator over the past 50 years. if you count the votes correctly we don't need a transfer of power because, of course, i will win. he is hammering that into the brain of his cult, any outcome that does not produce a donald trump victory is, by definition, a rigged and unjust outcome. we shouldn't -- his supporters are already starting with, well, that's just the way he talks, he

can't really do anything about that. first of all, he's the commander in chief, he has, you know -- a man sits next to the nuclear codes, he has the gigantic machinery of the united states government at his disposal. even if he is incompetent and has no idea what he's talking about, there are people around him, like the attorney general and others, who are perfectly competent and already are trying to make sure the election is tipped towards the president. we have to take at least some of it seriously, it's such a breach of constitutional norms that we can't not be enraged about this because the president is too ridiculous to know what he said. >> he -- we are to take it all seriously. it's not just oh, he's just saying that anymore. that's unacceptable. and at this point, we have a list we could make for you, let's just take one. sure, i'll get dirt on a

political rival from a foreign leader, i'll shake them down. >> from china. he asked china in front of cameras. >> so here's my question, benjamin wittes. we know who he is. let's establish that fact and we can do that, in fact, we may do an entire show bearing out the potentials here. but just for this moment here, let's take him at his word. what's the legal recourse anywhere in this country at any level for a president who wants a continuation of power and wants to push his way through this election even if he loses? >> so i think that's exactly the right question. donald trump has been doing exactly this since the 2016 campaign when he said that he'd accept the results of the election if he won, right. and so, the idea that he's not committed to the process, if it doesn't go his way, is not new, although this is a particularly

flamboya flamboyantly, ugly expression of it. there are a few things you can do about it. and short of the litigation that will happen if he tries to do it, let's start with what joe just did, which is holding every person who is running for office at the federal level in congress to the words that the president said, and, you know, making them accountable for either not believing in the peaceful transition of power or for repute kuwaiti reputiating what the president said. their word doesn't matter that much because look at what they did with pushing through a supreme court justice in the last term of the presidential term.

but it is important to get them on the record and make them accountable for not being willing to say that the peaceful transition of power matters. irrespective of the president. and the second thing you can do is do this at the state legislative level because at the end of the day, the play that bart gellman in that article is describing is getting state legislatures to assign their electoral votes irrespective of the will of the people as expressed in in the election to donald trump. so the one thing that really matters there is whether state legislative officers are willing to go along with that. a lot of them are on the ballot. here's an assignment for every local state house reporter in battleground states. call them all. get them on the record about

this. under what circumstances, if any, would they override the will of the electorate in their states? there's a final thing i just want to add to joe's eloquent rant about the peaceful transition of power. there's one other thing you should be getting everybody on the record about about this. which is whether they will favor counting the damn votes. because the premises of the president's remarks is, we just sent out a whole lot -- we're in the process of sending out a whole lot of mail-in ballots and they shouldn't be counted because he should just win. so the last i looked yesterday, 173,000 people had voted just yesterday in north carolina alone. should those votes count? the president says no. every member of congress, every

state legislative office in north carolina should be asked the question, in addition to do you believe in the peaceful transition of power, do you believe in counting the votes under the law of your state? >> here's what the president said yesterday again we want to, we have to get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very -- you'll have a peaceful transfer. frankly, there will be a continuation. basically if we get rid of the ballots i'll remain president. so far mitt romney, the only republican we can find who has spoken out about this, calling the president's comments and the idea he wouldn't leave if he lost the election unthinkable and unacceptable. yamiche you covered this president every day for the duration of his term. as shocking as his comments were yesterday and worthy of our focus, they're not new. he said the same thing to chris wallace in an interview in july

when asked if he would respect the outcome of the election he said we'll see. he also created a commission to look into fraud in the 2016 election, an election he won because he lost the popular vote he didn't like that story, sought to prove there was fraud in the election. that commission was disbanded when it found no such evidence. yes, this is alarming and we're talking about it for good reason but it's a continuation of something he's been telling us for a long time. >> that's right. yesterday's comments and the president refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power is par for the course. he's been using rhetoric and language that echos that of dictators and authoritarian governments, this is the aspect i'm talking about, from his own supporters as well as critics of president trump. everyone recognizes he likes this idea of strong men talking about the media as enemies, the

idea that ballots are part of a grand fraud against him, if he doesn't win, talking about the elections as rigged. going back to when he was debating hillary clinton saying he was going to jail his political opponent. i wrote a story for the "new york times" years ago that's just as relevant today, there were so many people that came to america from countries that had been makan over by dig takectato saw in president trump the leaders they fled. i'm talking bad actors at the helm of their governments. the thing that's important is we have to talk about the context within which this is happening. the president understands media coverage, understands sucking the air out of the room. this is happening as 200,000 americans have died of the coronavirus, more than 6.9 million people are infected

by the virus. he wants to talk about anything other than the virus. this is part of it being scary to some people who watch how democratic nations slip into dictatorships, it's also been telling to me to watch how the president has wanted to talk about this and not really acknowledge in some strong way the fact that there are so many people who have died from this virus. he talks about the vaccine being around the corner and he keeps talking about information and talking about things in a way that's different and in contrast to top health officials in the country. that needs to be thought of as questi we're thinking about the fact that the president is saying he doesn't want to leave office. we're in this situation, with mail-in ballots, because the president has struggled -- that's a nice way to put it -- in his response. >> it's interesting you said what you said because before we came on the air, i had the thought in my mind that this is

yet another smoke bomb that the president throws out. he throws out this these things, the central premises is to own the libs and enrage the media because he knows that makes him more powerful with his base. and so, as we were looking at this story and as we decided to cover this story, the one thing i knew was that, yes, it takes people's minds off the fact that if you look at the bottom left-hand corner of your screen, right-hand corner of your screen, there are 203,000 dead americans, a lot of them because of donald trump's miserable handling of this crisis, because he lied to the american people, kept information from them, covered up information, basic information, from them about this being an airborne virus, that it was a killer, it was the worst crisis he was going to face in his presidency, at the same time he was hearing that, hearing 500,000 people were going to die in america from his trade adviser, he was telling

americans this was one person coming in from china on january the 23rd and that person would be taken care of and then a month later it was 15 people coming in and sick but they were all soon going to be healed. early march saying this was going away in april. then he started talking about pumping disinfectants into people's bodies. saying again it was going away when the weather got warmer. we continued to have the spike. yamiche brings up a great point. so much is to distract from the bitter truth on your screen right now that 203,000 families have lost a loved one to this pandemic, to this virus that the virus has been lying about through his teeth, still continues to lie about even today. so with that in mind, we understand that.

but mike barnicle, this has also been a theme of donald trump's for some time. donald trump has been talking about, my government, my military, the fact that he's going to serve more than the constitutionally mandated limit of eight years. that he's going to have a third term. trying to undermine the results of the election from the very beginning. talking about how yesterday he wouldn't guarantee the peaceful transfer of power. that requires a closer examination and we're going to have to be able to do two things at once. we're going to have to follow him down this rabbit trail because this rabbit trail may lead to the worst constitutional crisis for american democracy that we've had since the civil war. and also you have a president who continues to tell us who he is. a man who does not respect constitutional norms.

a man who does not respect checks and balances that james madison and our founders put on presidential power back in -- you know, back in 1789. all of these things -- or 1787. all of these things donald trump has contempt for and is ignorant of and right now is placing this constitutional republic in jeopardy. >> joe, i would feel better if if i thought this was another diversion. but this is who he is, as you just indicated. we just heard who he is. maybe it's time to have a visual proof of who he is. and the visual proof would be something that every american who has taken the office of the presidency has done in january or earlier, in march, after they get elected.

and there's this, you take your left hand, put it on a bible, you raise your right hand and you say, i will faithfully execute the office of the presidency of the united states. i will preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the united states. well, donald trump has violated that oath of office already. and he just did again yesterday in public. we have never been here before. the republic, our republic, america, has been in existence for nearly 250 years. we have never had a threat posed to the stability, the foundations of our democracy as this man presented us. brian claus, i don't know about you. you studied it, written about the elements of democracy and the dangers of democracy. i would be willing to pose the question to every republican senator today, a basic question, are you a republican or are you an american?

brian. >> i think it's quite clear that this is an emergency election now. i think it's quite clear this is not an election between democrats and republicans. but between democracy and authoritarian populism, which is what donald trump represents. it's one of these things i've been warning about this for four or five years because donald trump has shown us who he is. you look at the playbook, he's drown just about every page out of it. scapegoats minorities, uses his office for personal gain, calls to jail his opponents, uses misinformation and these are blips because they're so frequent but a week ago he was calling on voters to try to vote twice. so at some point you have to say he's telling us what he's going to do and we have this bias as human beings that we think nefarious action is done in secret. so we think it's less worrying

when donald trump goes into a press conference and tells us i'm planning to subvert american democrat democracy. it's time to believe him. it's not about health care, all these other things that are important, but this is about the integrity of the system. if you agree with democracy, you agree with joe biden on the one thing that counts the most in this election, in my opinion, that's protegting the constitution and upholding the american democracy. >> thank you all for being on this morning and talking about this truly consequential moment in history. more now on the role the republican party is playing all of this. our next guest is an election forecaster who said instead of rejecting the president's anti-democratic moves the gop has spent the past year laying the ground work for what she

calls the president's coup. joining us election forecast analyst rachel bittacofer, good to have you on this morning. after everything we've been talking about, rachel, what does your research and what you've been working on point to, and what are your biggest concerns? >> i should definitely specify, i'm not with the nascanon center anymore. i've been looking at the movements the party has been making not president trump because he's been doing outlandish things and these are not empty threats. but what matters is the infrastructure. and so for the last year i've been watching what is the

republican national committee doing? how are they responding? we know that the congressional delegation has been enabling trump through silence in the last segment joe was making a -- yet again, another probably fruitless appeal to some of the swing state senators who are most endangered and that would be helpful, right, it's helpful when susan collins or mitt romney comes out and says don't do that. but what matters is, are they putting things in place to help him transition through that time period of election loss through the months of december and january and then actually go into a term during minority, you know, losing the election technically and they are. so i think what we need to do is we need to be putting some attention on the chairwoman of the gop, the rnc, rhonda

mcdaniel and looking at the infrastructure and the way to do that is congressional oversight. but she's moving playing chess, these lawsuits they're not organic, they're part of a large strategy she's been operating largely in the shadows and it's time we start to pay attention to what they're doing. >> beyond paying attention, who can actually make a difference to bring some balance to this or to deter what could be a very nefarious end to this election process. everyone says it's terrible. it's terrible what this person is doing, what that person is doing, when are they going to speak out against it and be patriots? can we at this point assume they may not. >> yes. right. >> what's the oversight? what's the answer to this? >> i mean, here's the thing you guys need to understand and america needs to understand. i've been talking about this for a while, you can see this if you watch any of the congressional

testimonies. in republican world, it is they that are defending the institutional purity. bill barr is american hero, okay. there's an information ecosystem that is different than what everybody else in america is digesting. and in it, trump is -- he's -- what he's doing. and this is how all dictators rise, right. he's on a freedom crusade. and none of this information is getting through. they never will listen to the woodward tapes. they never read the mueller report. they listen to bill o'reilly and sean hannity's version of these documents and they have constructed an alternative reality that started in the jim jordan part of the party but goes through the rank and file now. and that is a key feature. because if you're asking, you know -- and this is a conversation i had with somebody i care deeply about who isn't

even in this orbit and they couldn't make the connection that their former friends and allies, i'm sure joe can relate to this, are going to idly stand by and let america fall into an authoritarian coup and i'm trying to explain, they don't know what they're doing. they don't have this information. they're not looking and thinking about it and navigating it through the mentality that we are doing. they think what they're doing is saving america. they think that obama and the russia investigation was the power grab. they think they're resetting american institutions into purity by what they're doing. it goes all the way down to the bottom, right. there are things we can do but everything described so far are going to be reactive. we're going to go to court in december and try to get the vote counts to stop. we're going to go to the streets

if they try to do the vote counting. we cannot do that. that is too late for the country. so we need to start now going on offense, right. and i think the offense is, sunlight onto the republican national committee under rank and file republicans who, at this point, they're between a rock and a hard place but they've been able to operate there because they've had no pressure from the other side. and they're not being forced to digest reality. >> all right. rachel thank you so much. >> very, very -- >> thank you so much, rachel. it's so interesting, i talk to a lot of friends, family members, and it's so fascinating that throughout the first six months of the coronavirus, they said, that's nothing. it's just like the flu. it's no different than the flu. we've heard that also from republicans. and then, of course, you have the president of the united

states telling bob woodward, as he's spreading that lie to the american people publicly, that it's much worse than the flu, much more dangerous than the flu. but they continue to do that. right now, if i talk to my friends -- life long friends. people who would, if i asked them to give me a kidney to, you know, to save my life, they would do it. i mean, these are people who are extraordinarily close to me. i would do it for them, do whatever i could for them. yet they are oblivious. they live in another information ecosystem that completely makes up the news. if you talk about donald trump, they will talk about andrew cuomo. if you talk about donald trump, they will talk about mayor de blasio. some friends, when you talk

about children in cages, they'll say that was all nancy pelosi, donald trump could never do that without nancy pelosi's approval. and you sit and patiently talk to people you love and explain, no, actually, it was donald trump who had his cabinet raise hands supporting, as policy, the caging of children to try to stop over people from coming into the united states. doesn't matter what the issue is. they are living in an alternative reality with an alternative set of facts, and it's all very calculated from other news services, it's all very calculated by people that go onto facebook. and so, do they know the -- no, they don't know the facts. they know the facts that donald trump and his supporters are turning out there that are actually lies, or they know distractions. but they're not going to hold

donald trump accountable for lying, willie. and again, let me say again, these are people who are friends, they're family members, people i've loved my entire life, people who have loved me their entire life. people who have been there for me at all times when i've needed them. and people who i will be with for the rest of my life. but, you know, not to make this personal but sometimes i say to them, i say, you know, you're saying that you're supporting the president of the united states and, of course, we went to first baptist church together from a very young age and went to college together and we've grown older together and yeah, you're just telling me -- i'm not mad i said to them -- you're telling me you're going to vote for a man who accused me of

murder 11 times and was trying to get an investigation started up to throw me in jail to silence me. and even when the family who was being hurt the most by this conspiracy theory begged the president to stop lying about their daughter and their wife who had been dead for 19 years, the president kept talking about it. and willie, i say to him -- you know their answer, it's just donald trump, nobody believes him, he's crazy. but i'm not voting for him, i'm voting against aoc. well, aoc is not on the ballot. i'm not voting for him, i'm voting against andrew cuomo. andrew cuomo is not on the ballot. i'm voting against elizabeth warren. they're never voting for donald trump they say. it's always voting against somebody else. the funny thing is, they're not

saying they're voting against joe biden because joe is an okay guy. but this is something that we've never seen before and it is extraordinary that people do live in this cocoon of false information. >> yeah. and it's a cocoon that has people booing masks at rallies, has people cheering violence, it's a cocoon that has people cheering donald trump's repeated story of our colleague getting hit by a rubber bullet, gleefully telling that story. it's -- >> it's a cocoon that has people dying. >> sure. as you say, joe, because of the volume of tweets and comments he puts out there, there's a tendency, it happens in the press, too, by the way, to say gosh, people roll their eyes and push it aside. but there are certain things you can't do that to. if you're a republican this morning you can't say i haven't read the tweet, i'm not going to respond to everybody that comes

out of donald trump's mouth. when the president stands there and won't commit to an election, that demands an answer. i mentioned mitt romney was the only one we could find. i want to mention congressman steve ciphers of ohio put out this statement, nothing defines the constitution of our republic than the peaceful transition of power. i'll uphold that. when elections are over and winners are declared we must all commit on ourselves to the constitution and accept the results. that's congressman stooiiefrs f ohio. served the country in iraq as well. >> there you go. >> he served this morning well too. we thank him for confirming a basic necessity of american democracy. mike barnicle quickly, we have to go to break but we want to remember our friend harry evans who passed away.

>> yes. >> one of the most legendary editors of the 20th century and a good friend of ours. harry was editor of the sunday times from 1967 to 1981, took over the times for a year. and then, editor at large at "reuters" since 2011. but again, more importantly, a friend of all of us here at "morning joe." >> joe, harry evans was a news person up until the moment he died. and although he was born in britain, he came to america in the early 1980s and he bled the news red, white and blue. he loved this country. he was stunned at what was going on in this country prior to his death, just prior to his death. he was an epic editor, instilled loyalty, values and ethics in everyone who ever worked for him and we will dearly miss him.

>> mike barnicle, thank you for that. we move to somewhat related story if you look at the big picture, a secret inauguration after a disputed election in belarus and a russian opposition leader finally released from the hospital after being poisoned. we've been talking about the difference between democracy and autocracy this morning. and that conversation continues joining us we have ed luce and former ambassador to sweden mark bra z bra sin ski, . good to have you both. >> ed luce, the struggle continues in belarus, the "new york times" yesterday posted an extraordinary mini documentary -- >> everyone should watch that. >> -- on the leader of this democratic challenge but the

people of belarus are still resisting, still demanding their freedom. >> they are. and it's been many, many weeks now, they've been receiving moral support from most of the europeans and the state department here and from american groups, not from the american president. as you probably saw last week, lu lukashenko who rigged the election, went to moscow, met with putin, it was extraordinary to watch the body language. he sat on the edge of his seat with a notebook on his knees, scribbling notes as putin spoke. putin was leaning back like a mafia don and basically giving instructions. it's now clear that meeting was for lukashenko was to secure

putin's green light to go ahead with the secret inauguration. this is a country where an election was rigged. where there was no possibility of peaceful transfer of power and where the belarus who tried to vote against him are being brutally oppressed, are not getting support from the american president as in any other circumstance they would be expected to do. who himself, as you've been talking about quite rightly all morning, is casting doubt on whether he would accept a peaceful transfer of power. it's a very odd moment. >> ambassador, what should the united states be doing right now to support the peaceful marchers, the demonstrators in a way that ronald reagan and other american presidents supported

peaceful demonstrators and those who resisted the soviet union behind the iron curtain. what can we do? >> joe, president trump, at the u.n. this week should have said three words, i support svetlana. she is the housewife in belarus who because her husband, the opposition leader, is in jail, is leading the movement. and those words would have empowered the movement across the country. it's a little bit like the solidarity movement in poland 40 years ago this year which united the country to topple the soviet regime there. the point is, to add to ed's great commentary and description of lukashenko visiting russian

president putin this past week. the people have been fighting for freedom for 26 years. this is the last dictator in europe and this is not a republican issue or democratic issue. this is low-hanging fruit in terms of u.s. leadership standing for our values. of u.s.p standing for our values. feet. there is nothing like this coming out of the u.s. this is low hanging fruit for the leadership. >> let's talk about novalney.

tell us what is the latest on him? >> well, it's quite clear that vs hoivened with this soviet devised poison that has been used on others. including many ex russian spies based on in britain. he is absolutely clearly a victim of a russian plot, that this is not something you go and buy in your pharmacy. this is a very, very preserved russian state chemical. he climbs novalney had table

novachuk on his own. macron reportedly blew a gasket. he said i'm not such russian peasant that you can feed these kinds of stories to. this is putin bavensically tell the world, in this case the french president, he can do what he likes. there is no consequence. the fact that navalney is now talking about going back to russia, he is now the leading opposition to putin, the previous one was killed on red square. the fact that navalney now is saying he wants to return to russia is an extraordinary measure of the character of this man.

you have a president getting behind somebody, the power of that is detroit. the power of the west putting its shoulder behind navalny would be remarkable. we all know the measure of this man. he's extraordinary courageous figure. >> yeah. hey, let's talk finally about the united nations who is celebrating wi celebrating what the washington post described as a gloomy 75th anniversary. has there ever been a time that he united nations seemed less relevant under the affairs of the world and what can be done to make that international organization vital in a way that its founders, 75 years ago, conceived it to be.

because this was, again, an institution that 75 years ago the world held out great hope for. >> clearly, joe, the u.n. has not lived up to its expectations in terms of pulling together a collective response as the most effective response for global challenges, whether it's pandemics, or international terrorism, or many of the regional military challenges. but one thing the u.n. does have is this, joe. it has the power to convene like few others. and that is why this week was, in certain ways, a missed opportunity for the united states in terms of the u.s. president to speak to the world. because what the u.n. annual meeting provides is an opportunity for the u.s. to give a statement of vision why the u.s. is important to the world and why the world needs america and then the american president

can point out what america expects from the world. instead, we had president trump talking about how our weapons are the most advanced while president xi of china talked about carbon neutrality for china by 2016, but by 2060 and that isolationism cannot return. which message do you think is more attractive to the world and who do you think the world wants to see succeed after these speeches? so in that sense, we're missing the utility of this flawed institution, but an institution that can be useful in terms of advancing the american interest. >> former ambassador mark brazinski and ed loose, thank you both very much for your input this morning. we have a lot more still to come on "morning joe." will republican leaders speak out today against the president's refusal to commit to

a peaceful transfer of power? there have only been a few so far. plus, new reporting that the trump campaign is discussing contingency plans to bypass election results as part of a bid to hold on to power. and democratic senator cory booker will be our guest. "morning joe" is coming right back. guest "morning joe" is coming right back ♪ ♪ it's official:

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rairan is a different place when i took over. when i became president, iran was a real threat to the entire middle east and maybe beyond. >> when i took over our military, we didn't have ammunition. i was told by a top general, maybe the top of them all, sir, i'm sorry, sir, we don't have ammunition. >> we are going to win four more years. and then after that, we'll go for another four years. >> telling us how to run our

country. how was your country run? she's going to tell us. she's telling us how to run our country. >> you have to dominate. if you don't dominate, you're wasting your time. they're going to run over you. you're going to look like a bunch of jerks. you have to dominate. >> will you come in here today for a peaceful transfer of power after the elections? >> we're going to have to see what happens. you know that. >> so some remarkable things that actually can be both shocking and not surprising at the same time, considering that they come from donald trump. but, mika, there you had the president of the united states yesterday saying that he will not commit to a peaceful transfer of power. that was the question. so let's, again, say that for the first time in the history of this republic, you have a president of the united states who will not commit to a

peaceful transfer of power, at the same time he's asking republicans to lie to their constituents and go back on what they said four years ago and promised four years ago and ran through a supreme court justice. why? because he needs that supreme court justice to vote for him on any election disputes that he stirs up. that is pretty much a five alarm fire. >> that's where we are. and you invoked maya angelou in your sunday piece in "the washington post." when someone tells you who they are, believe them. in this case with donald trump, you've got to believe him. he ends up following through every time with pretty much everything he says. >> willie, what was the xktd comment where he said something like, if there aren't ballots, then there won't be a transfer. if there aren't -- something along those lines. >> he said get rid of the ballots and you'll have -- there

won't be a transfer, frankly, there will be a continuation of power. so what he's saying there is, let's be cheer, if you get rid of mail-in ballots, mail-in vote which has been used widely and has for some time across this country, then i will be re-elected. that's what he's calling for there. there were two parts to that comment there yesterday. number one, we'll see what happens in terms of a peaceful transfer of power. we haven't heard that before except for a president from this one and we ought to think about getting rid of mail-in voting so that i can continue into a second term. >> okay. >> and he and ted cruz saying we have to get somebody on the sdou supreme court as quickly as possible so i can contest the results. joining us now, al sharpton.

we're following the reaction to yesterday's announcement that a louisville grand jury decided not to indict the police officers directly involved in breonna taylor's death. most protesters adhered to the 9:00 p.m. curfew in louisville. but demonstrators took to the streets in cities around the country in reaction to the grand jury decision. philadelphia, los angeles, chicago, and new york were among the cities that saw black lives matter signs and heard calls say her name late into the evening. but we're going to begin with president trump's plan to contest the results of the november election coming into sharp focus yesterday when he,

again, refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power. this isn't the first time. when fox news's chris wallace asked the president in june if he would accept the election results, no matter the outcome, the president said, quote, i have to see. but his answer to that question yesterday came with a much starker warning. here is the exchange. >> win, lose or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transferral of power after the election? there has been rioting across this country in your so-called red and blue states. will you commit to making sure there is a peaceful transfer of power after the election? >> we're going to have to see what happens. you know that. i've been complaining very strongly about the ballots and the ballots are a disaster. >> i understand that. but people are rioting.

do you commit to making sure there is a peaceful transferral of power? get rid of the ballots and we'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a transfer, frankly. there will be a continuation. the ballots are out of control. you know it and you know who knows it better than anybody el else? the democrats know it better than anybody else. >> first of all, he's rambling incoherently. >> well, no, but he's getting out the point. >> he doesn't even know what he's talking about. he's rambling incoherently because he's losing it and he has been for some time. but every republican, he's a liar, too. of course, you know that. 20,000 plus lies. but here the president is saying the democrats know that. actually, the truth is, willie, one republican after another republican after another republican has said there is no problem with mail-in ballots.

they have even said there is no trouble, there is no problem with mail-in ballots. "the wall street journal" editorial page who have written some extraordinarily embarrassing editorials in defense of donald trump can, just making my flinch, even they said, mr. president, there is nothing wrong with mail-in ballots and if you really are that scared, you're not going to run -- i mean not going to win, then get out of the race and let somebody else do it. which by the way, that is the subtext of this. every morning, we sit around and we look at polls and we talk about who is going to win, donald trump is telling us who is going to win. he's telling us that he can't beat joe biden. he's telling us that he's going to have to try to overturn the

results of this democratic election. because he knows he's going to lose. >> we added in what happens if he's not re-elected, if he's not impeached, also what happens if he's not re-elected. we've been suppressiexpressing concerns about what he's going to do. he said it out loud yesterday. he said it loud and clear. so you can continue to mock that, but i think it's well past time to take seriously and literally what he's saying about this because this is not a man who thinks he can win right now. wv we know that. we know they are worried about the prospects of re-election and what happens in the space between election day and however many days or weeks it takes to count these mail-in votes is the

space the president intends to fill with doubt and conspiracy about why he may lose. >> and, willie, what we heard yesterday from the president wasn't just unprecedented, but down right dangerous. coming at a time when we did see more violence in louisville and we have seen more outbursts all summer long. and i think it should be clear that some of those in louisville last night were seem to go be armed militia types, some of whom were spotted wearing pro trump paraphernalia. so what we have now is the president continuing his months long crusade to sow seeds of doubt about the election. it started with his assault on mail-in balloting and we should underscore this every time despite his claims of widespread fraud with mail-in balloting. there is no evidence of that

whatsoever. we know that he missioncommissi 2017 after taking office a panel to discussed allegations of voter fraud then because he lost the popular vote. mind you, the exact deficit that he lost the popular vote to hillary clinton. that panel was disbanded quietly. it found no evidence of voter fraud. and we know the president and his team, they have hired an army of lawyers. they're expecting a lot of legal challenges. he said as much the other day that he expects this election will be decided in the courts. and they're going to focus on mail-in balloting. they're going to try to invalidate a lot of these ballots. they're going to make it as difficult as possible for americans, at least in portions of this country, to vote. and that is why, and certainly since the death of justice ginsburg there has rightly been an extraordinary of the focus on the future of how the court could decide matters like abortion rights and gun control. but it shouldn't be lost that

part of the plan here, part of why the president and senate majority leader mcconnell are trying to push in a justice now, even though there is some wisdom to say they should leave that seat open until after the election, make it an incentive, but they feel like they want to do it before the election because, one, they feel like that will be a victory if they confirm and install a justice and secondly and perhaps more importantly, so that justice is seated on the bench for any legal challenges that may come to this election. and we should expect there should be many in the days and weeks after election day. still ahead on "morning joe," what are senate republicans saying about the president's break with democracy? not much. reverend al weighs in next on "morning joe." l weighs in next "morning joe." it's official: national coffee day is now national dunkin' day! celebrate with a free medium hot or iced coffee with any purchase on september 29th.

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fraudsters, they're out to get your medicare number so they can bill fake claims in your good name. don't give them that chance. just calling to confirm your medicare number. do you have your card available? for example, if the caller says they're from medicare, watch out. it's probably a scam. don't give out your card number. and always check your claims statements for errors. report fraudulent charges to 1-800-medicare. guard your card. learn more at medicare.gov/fraud. want conservative judges on i'the court.vative, this may make you feel better, but i really don't care. if an opening comes in the last year of president trump's term and the primary process has started we'll wait to the next election. i want you to use my words against me. you're on the record. yeah, hold the tape. lindsey must go and the lincoln project are responsible for the content of this ad.

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election is so he can strengthen his hand. should the supreme court have to decide the election.strengthen . should the supreme court have to decide the election. >> i think this will end up in the supreme court and i think it's very important that we have nine justices. this scam that the democrats are pulling, it's a scam, this scam will be before the united states supreme court and i think having a 4-4 situation is not a good situation. >> you know, all of his allies except, of course, for roy cohen who is his attorney general, all of his allies say the scam is the president of the united states questioning mail-in voting, absentee voting. this has been going on for decades. and it has been proven time and again, say republican governors, say republican senators, say republican members of congress, it has been proven time and again to be safe. but there we go. but reverend al, at any other point in american history, a

supreme court justice who is elevated to the high court would recuse themselves for a case that involves the president of the united states that the president of the united states stupidly said out allowed what ernd just keep in his head if he really wants to be good at corrupting american democracy and that is i'm going to appoint you so you will vote for me when i put up challenges to the election. i'm going to vote for you, but you have to help me get back into office for another four years. >> if we have to have any iota of a democratic process in this election, the republicans in the senate, if they move forward as they seem determined to do, with the process of confirmation hearings or whoever the president nominates saturday and a vote, they are to insist they

recuse themselves. in effect, this president has, therefore, not only violated the whole procedure they had set up in 2016 against justice garland not named by president obama, he has, in fact, put in place how he can check mate american democracy by putting in a judge that will guarantee if proceedings go through the courts up to the supreme court his re-election. and for him to be able to check mate american democracy is, in fact, a coup rather than an election. and i think that this is a challenge the republicans have to deal with from the public that you must have if you insist on doing what you should not be doing. you should at least make sure they recuse themselves, otherwise you've handed over this democracy to a whole situation that is nothing short of that we are now going into an autocracy headed by a man who is

not even able to get through a sentence without really revealing his inner most thoughts of ultimate power. coming up, the election that could break america. a new piece in the atlantic puts a fine point on what is at stake this november. "morning joe" is back in a moment. this november. "morning joe" is back in a moment introducing stocks by the slice from fidelity. now you can trade stocks and etfs for any amount you choose instead of buying by the share. all with no commissions. stocks by the slice from fidelity. get your slice today.

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let's bring in staff writer at the atlantic battlon geldman whose latest piece is entitled the election that could break america. also with us, brendan nyan. very good to have you both on board this morning. >> so, barton, let me ask you about your report that trump will first claim victory before mail ballots are tabulated and then circumventing the votes altogether. that is how -- that is your chief concern. talk about how that will happen. >> we're used to the idea that we cast voetsz and then the

popular vote winner in a state gets that state's electric tore votes. but the stud doesn't say it has to be that way. trump and his people are aware of this. the state legislature has the power, according to the supreme court, to seize back from the people the decision over who the electors will be. and trump's people are talking about a strategy in which they would go to the lawyers in some of the six swing states that are controlled by republicans in the legislature, in both chambers, and say you should reject the vote count because it's corrupt, because it's rigged, because it's filled with fraud and you should, therefore, appoint electors that would be trump electors regardless of the vote, to cast aside the vote. >> so let's be clear here, that in the swing states of michigan,

wisconsin, pennsylvania, you have democratic governors, but you have republican legislatures there. you have republican lawyers in ohio and florida, as well. are you saying that donald trump's campaign and his lawyers are talking to some in those legislatures and telling them to jo every throw the will of the voters in those states? >> well, i know that they've been that conversation with the head of the republican party in pennsylvania who told me so. and i know that the pennsylvania senate majority leader and speaker of the house are aware of this talk and have talked about it themselves, about the possibility. trump is run ago campaign premised on the idea that he can't win enough votes if all the votes are counted and that

he has to change venues. he has to change to a different way of counting. and the thing about a presidential election is that it depends on the concession of the loser. if the loser won't concede, he's got a bunch of different reps he can work. there is no ability of the umpire to say, it's over, we've called it. >> so let me ask, that seems to me we've already had a supreme court ruling earlier this year on electors that didn't follow the will of their -- of the people in their states. would it then go to the court of the united states to force the state lawyers to follow the will of the people in their states?

>> they were different kinds of cases. and it's not necessarily the courts that it would go to. it would probably go to the court, as well. but the electoral count act, which was passed after the only other time in american history that we've had a debacle like this where two different groups of people said i'm the elector for the state of pennsylvania, for example, it's supposed to go to congress. congress is supposed to decide who are the legitimate electors if any from that state. the electoral count act is one of the most indesieferble statutes ever passed by congress. there are a number of likely scenarios in which congress can't make the decision, in

which you have both sides dead locks. they short of check mate each other on who are going to be the people who cast the votes from, in this case, pennsylvania. and the problem is that when you have chaos going on for a long time, which is trump's strategy here, then as time passes, the president, the person who has got the troops under his command and has the apparatus of the federal government at his command is going to take advantage of that dead lock and stay in power. >> so professor, this delayed count is coming. we've known it was going to come for many months now because of this pandemic, because so many people will vote by mail in record numbers. so we get to election night. we have the vote that we can count that night and we now know that because even some ballots aren't even open until election day, it's going to take some days or perhaps weeks.

what donald trump laid out yesterday, the president said in that space i'm going to say we shouldn't have had mail-in voting. he'll have a story about something that happens in one state and use that as evidence that mail-in voting is fraudulent. so what do you see, as a professor of government, happening until all the votes are known? >> i don't think we have any idea. barton has laid out the possible scenarios and they're very grim. it will be essential for the public to demand a fair and complete count in that moment. that is the ultimate constraint of power in that time. when the votes are first cast and when we have an ultimates are hugz, as parton has suggested, there is a potential for the president and his allies to destabilize that process, to sow chaos and to then use that

chaos as a pretext to undermine the validity of the result. to try to change the outcome of the election. and this is a democratic emergency. this is something that experts are incredibly alarmed about. my colleagues are terrified of what they're seeing in the united states. this is straight out of the textbooks of how countries slide out of democracy and into authoritarianism. the peaceful transfer of power, we depend on losers acquiescing, stepping down. that is the core of democracy itself. donald trump has told us what he would do under those circumstances. the question is what will his allies do? this is a time of choosing for every person of good faith in either party to decide whether

they are for democracy or not. and there will be all sorts of confusion and complications about mail-in ballots and a hundred other permutations that the president is trying to create around this process. do you know incumbents should step down when they lose or do you believe this is a country that is no longer a democracy? that is the simple question we face right now. >> staff writer at the atlantic barton gelman, everybody should read his piece. it's entitled the election that could break america and the professor from dartmouth college, brendan nye. thank you, as well. cory booker joins the conversation next on "morning joe." r joins the conversation next on "morning joe.

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the unsolicited ballots that they're sending is a scam. it's a hoax. everybody knows that and the democrats know it better thanl everybody else. so you're going to need nine justices up there. i think it's going to be very important. what theerp doing is a hoax with the ballots. >> and i think this will end up in the supreme court and i think it's very important that we have nine justices. this scam that the democrats are pulling, it's a scam, this scam will be before the united states supreme court. and i think having a 4-4 situation is nos a good situation. >> donald trump, the past two days, essentially admitting that he wants a ninth justice on the bench before the election to help him should the supreme court have to decide who wins. it's a similar take from ted

cruz of texas. four years ago, he took a hard line when asked if his party could block a democratic president from filling the vacant supreme court seat indefinitely, arguing the court could continue on with less than nine justices seated. cruz said, quote, there is certainly long historical precedent for a supreme court with fewer justices. i would note, just recently, that justice stephen breyer observed that the vacancy is not impacting the ability of the court to do its job. that's a debate. we are going to have. compare that to what senator cruz said just six days ago. >> we cannot have election day come and go with a 4-4 court. a 4-4 court that is equally divided cannot decide anything. and i think we risk a constitutional crisis if we do not have a nine justice supreme court, particularly when there is such a risk of a contested litigation and a contested

election. >> let's bring in democratic senator cory booker of new jersey. also with us for this conversation is new york university law professor melissa murray and mike barnacle is with us, as well. senator booker, i'll start with you. you're on the judiciary committee and the foreign affairs committee. how would you describe where we stand at this point in terms of the potential that our democracy could be messed around with by this president? >> this president is menacing our democracy. and i think if you cannot commit, whether you're that challenger or incumbent, if you cannot commit to the constitutional norm and ideal of a peaceful transfer of power, you've made your illegal legitimatement and you should resign your office. there is nothing more basic and

fundamental to our nation's democracy than the peaceful transfer of power. you can't commit to that, your honor not be running fyou shoul for president of the united states. with all respect to other nations, we have not zimbabwe. we are the united states of america. if our leader cannot commit himself to what makes us distinct and enduring, he loses all legitimacy and he forfeits his office. >> but your republican counterparts, they have a hard time speaking out against this president. if they don't say these same words, agree with you, agree that it's country over party and what this president is saying, what happens if he's not

stopped? >> then they are complicit to our national undoing if they do not stand up. and it's not enough to wait and see what happens. language like this to me is a betrayal open your oath. he raised his hand and swore an oath to uphold the constitution. and now he is saying plainly that he will not follow the constitutional mandates. if you are not calling this out right now, you are complicit in this president who has menaced our democracy and careening us towards a serious crisis in about 40 days. >> senator booker, willie geist, good to see you this morning. we mentioned a few minutes ago, steve romney, senator geiger spoke out against what the president said. since then, marco rubio has spoken out against it, as well, and so has liz cheney. so we happened to make sure we put this out there as people who say no, we will uphold the oath

and the constitution under this transfer of power. what would you say, though, to people who are very concerned who are watching this show right now about what happens between election day and whenever all those mail-in ballots are counted? how do we as a country brace ourselves for what is coming in november? >> let's give a full picture of what is going to happen. the fbi has already warned us, i've read the intelligence reports, this will be seized upon by our adversaries. the russians have gotten very sophisticated by their ability to plant these stories and we have a president who pushes that. the deceit and the lies will be swirling around and we need to be focused not just on the transfer of power, but we all need to show a greater loyalty to the entemperaturance of this

democracy. he has been dragging the legitimacy of institution after institution. he's attacked the cdc and its legitimacy by politicizing it. the fda he's been politicizing that institution, attacking the legitimacy of the post office. attacking the legitimacy of the supreme court now with the way that they're handling the rereplacement of ruth bader ginsburg. so we are a democracy that has sustained itself because of the strength of our institutions, our enemies are trying to get us to question our institutions, question the free press, even question truth itself. so we should coming towards one of our greatest tests as a democracy takes from now. >> it certainly is a crisis point, melissa murray.

is it fair to say because there are many who believe as this point that this president is trying to turn this country into a dictatorship or an autocracy. what indications do we have that he isn't? >> well, i think the president has been very clear that whether he wants to install an autocracy or a dictator shich, he wants a dictatorship and he's made that clear throughout this presidency. we have seen the president deploy a militia over the governors of states. as senator booker says, it's not just an existential threat to democracy, it's a threat to the knew tallty of tknew neutralit. by essentially saying one-third of his supreme court is in his

pocket, the president is basically saying that the decisions of the supreme court are political decisions. that is nothing that the court wants for itself. it try toes stay above the political fray and the president is basically bringing the supreme court down with him. >> senator booker, you just said a few moments ago that the republicans in general i think you alluded to, unless they said something about what the president did yesterday, not for the first time saying we'll see, we'll see whether he'll go awlong a transfer of power, that they were complicit in our undoing as a nation. so my question to you is you are a member of a body, the united states senate, where everyone is so collegial. why is it on this point that poses such a threat to our

republic, nearly 250 years old, who have never seen anything like this, such a threat, a dangerous threat, why is it that the democrats in the united states senate as a group don't force the 53 republican senators, your colleagues, to go on the record, whether they agree or disagree with what donald trump said yesterday? >> first of all, there's been a lot of talk about everything from trying to pass a resolution on the senate floor calling for various committees to try and take this matter up. all of us have to understand that in crises like this, it's not just the word of our enemies. it's the silence of your friends. if you are a friend of this democracy, if you swore an oath like we all have in this senate, now is that test.

speak against anyone who is threatening them, especially from the highest office in the land. >> lindsey graham, the chair of the judiciary committee says he wants an expedited hearing and a vote before the election. democrats don't appear to have the votes to do anything about that right now. do you think differently? >> no. we still don't know where everyone stands. it's going be a long shot. we're going to try to appeal to their decency, you can't just months ago say that there's a standard and tell people to use your words against ow this matter and have them suddenly flip and change that. as we said earlier, this is

delegitimatizing and politicizing the supreme court in a way that will be so damaging to our democracy. again, you cannot have two different standards, one for donald trump and one for barack obama because in that case what you're doing is in effect giving barack obama a thee-year term in terms of the supreme court and president trump a five-year term. so we are really at a painful moment right now. and i think democrats are going to appeal to your sense of honor. >> i know you've heard some democrats say, okay, republican webs if you're going to violate norms, we'll do you one better and if you get your nominee in, we will expand the court by, say, two seats next year if we win back the senate. is that a good idea? >> i think it's not a good idea to be discussing that right now because there's one big opposition in that. it's that we win in november.

we have to win the senate back. what this should be doing is animating people. right now, this supreme court decision is going to affect people's health care, medicaid expansion, your right to organize as a union, your voice in this democracy against corporations who are rising in power thanks to citizens united and so much more. this should become the election where right now we turn tall of our fear into fight, our worry into work, and the agonizing that is going on right now into organizing so that we win this election. and then let's start debating what we should do if the democrats are in the majority. but that, to me, to jump to that is irresponsible and losing focus on the matter at hand which is winning in november. >> but do you agree it is something on the table if you do win? >> right now, i think that is

foley to engage in those discussions when we haven't even won the elections yet. there will be a real debate on a lot of things should democrats get in control. by right now that is not constructive in any way. what is constructive is organizing, working, volunteering, making campaign contributions against all this dark money that mitch mcconnell is so good in summoning. then we have a whole suite of options. we have to focus on what is important and the most important thing right now it seems is we are running out of maneuvers and options in the senate is to win

this election in 40 days. >> so melissa murray, what is your take on how this is going to play out? and not how we think it should play out. but given the patterns that we have seen over the past three he years, how do you think this is going to play out? >> well, i think it's obvious that leader mcconnell and the president understand that the courts are absolutely central to their efforts to consolidate republican power even in the face of a lacking democratic mandate to do so. and, you know, the talk of structural reform and court packing really is remiss. the court has been packed. for the last few years, the president has been unable to pass his own political agenda with the exception of loading the courts with young conservative judges who will serve for generations. the supreme court is merely the last step in that plan. it's an opportunity for leader mcconnell and the president to

solidified a third of the court in trump control, and they're going to press this, and i think we're going to see a confirmation despite the best efforts of the democrats. and the requestion is what will the people do? will the president have a mandate before november 3rd. >> senator cory booker, i wanted to ask you about the decision of the grand jury yesterday in the breonna taylor death. officers were not charged in her death. the third officer was charged but not for her death but for the wanton endangerment of firing into a neighbor's apartment. as you listened, what was your reaction? >> sadness and anger that we live in a country where you could be sleeping in your bed and have people storm into your home, not because you're a suspected murderer or violent felon but because of spriggs us of drug crimes and kill you.

none of us when we go to bed at night would think that's justified or justice. justice has not been done. that's why in the senate we're working so hard to try to ban that kind of police action. so we have a severe lack of justice, and i think i'm not the only person that just felt sad and angry yesterday, and now we need to channel that into the kind of work that's going to end this ongoing nightmare that goes back generations where we see police force, police in this country too often killing unarmed african-americans, whether they're sleeping in their bed or being choked out on a new york city street. this is happening far too often, in violation of the highest ideals of this country, which is equal under the law and justice for all. we have work to do in america and we all know it. we have to admit it's a matter of urgency, a matter of life and death. we need to begin to take real

actions, and i believe, again, we're at a cross roads in our country. one president who denies that this is even a problem but actually tries to insight more division among racial lines. also trying to look at values of decency and honor and grace. >> senator cory booker, thank you very, very much. and now to senate republicans finding no evidence that joe biden acted improperly with his son's ties to a ukrainian energy company. chairman of the senate homeland security committee and finance committees released an 87-page joint report yesterday which argued that hunter biden's position with burisma was, quote, problematic, but did not influence the then vice president's behavior or change the obama administration policy toward ukraine.

much of the republican report rehashes unproven allegations that echoed a russian disinformation campaign and was already a key part of the gop defense during impeachment hearings. the bind campaign chairman wrote, wasted months diverting the senate homeland security and governmental affairs committee away from any oversight of the catastrophically botched federal response to the pandemic. that's basically it. joining us is curt mandela. curt, this wild goose chase over hunter biden and burisma seems to find more about perhaps russian connections with trump than anything else, but right now, doesn't it seem like the

course of history right now is at stake in terms of the sanctity of our democracy and what this president has said about peaceful transition of power? >> yeah, mika. it speaks volumes about where we are right now as a country and really how far the republican party has fallen in these four years that as the president is advancing dictatorial/authoritarian impulses, the senate republicans are enabling them and are being used to promote blatant russian propaganda to try to smear one of the president's political opponents. the politicization of this committee under ron johnson is unlike anything we've ever seen before, and it's nothing more than taxpayer finance opposition research, and, you know, the biden campaign is rife -- when i talk about all the things the oversight committee hasn't been doing while chasing down this

conspiracy theory biden situation, the fda, the cdc, the things going on within the president's own family, how there's a nexus of conflict of interest, financial activities of the government, all of those things unaddressed, uninvestigated by ron johnson, they waste all this evidence targeting the president's political adversaries, it's disgraceful and incredibly damaging. >> and then looking at yesterday and his comments about the elections, is there any recourse? any oversight many whwhen the pt says something like that? >> you know, unfortunately we've seen time and again this president exploit the limitations of oversight, exploit the loopholes that exist in oversight. i think one of the most important things going forward is what congress said yesterday, the leaders of the house, all the congressional committees, nancy pelosi want things that would strengthening their

subpoena authority, give them standing to fast track cases so if someone obstructs them, they can get a ruling on something quickly and timely. all of these cracks in democracy are happening, and really what we've seen is there's really not much they can do right now, and that's a big problem. we don't have check and balance right now. we i don't have a balanced government right now. we have an executive branch running away and doing whatever it wants. the only way we can stop it is to show up and vote in november. if we don't get to that threshold, mika, i'm very concerned about what that's going to mean for our country going forward. >> kurt bardella, thank you very much for being on this morning. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage after this final short break. ge after this final short break.

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i'm stepny ruhle. september 24th, thursday. we start with breaking rules. frustration and outright disappointment once again rippling across the nation. overnight protests broke out in multiple cities after grand jury decided no charges would be brought against louisville police in the shooting death of breonna taylor. it started in lufbl but quickly spread across this country. demonstrations took place from coast to coast, l.a. to nyc. crowds gathered outside police stations and court houses, demanding justice for the 26-year-old killed while she was asleep in her apartment. the grand jury determined that the officers were justified in firing the fatal shots because taylor's boyfriend fired at them first. an officer who was fired but later indicted, shooting into the neighbor's apartment, nothing for the killing