hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. as warnings of an impending constitutional crisis rip through the nation's capital, today's front page is nothing short of showcasing an unprecedented alarm reaching up on to the ranks of the pentagon over what the military will do if and when president trump makes good on his open admission that he will not go quietly if he loses the november 3rd election to joe biden. it's a threat that's already putting our democracy in jeopardy, or so says presidential historian michael beschloss to rachel maddow. >> you want to go into history to look for something like this?

go into italian history and look at mussolini. this is the way dictators come to power. he's telling you what he intends to do. and we've got to make very sure that in the next 5 1/2 weeks and after that, we do not get in a situation where just as senator sanders was saying tonight that donald trump announces he's won and puts us in a situation where our democracy is being stolen minute by minute. this is not a drill. franklin roosevelt said in 1940 at the time of adolf hitler, never before since jamestown and plymouth rock has american civilization been in this kind of danger. we are approaching that point tonight. >> if you are a fan of michael beschloss, that's the first time he's ever said any of those things. it's a possibility, though, that the u.s. military isn't just fretting about, but in some cases they are privately preparing for. that's according to brand-new reporting in today's "new york times" that says this. quote, senior leaders at the

pentagon speaking anonymously acknowledge that they were talking among themselves about what to do if mr. trump, who will still be president from election day to inauguration day, invokes the insurrection act and tries to send troops into the street as he repeatedly threatened to do during the protests against police brutality and systemic racism. defense department officials have privately discussed the possibility of mr. trump trying to use any civil unrest around the elections to put his thumb on the scales. several pentagon officials said such a move could prompt resignations among many of mr. trump's senior generals starting at the top with general milley. those concerns extenting to state capitals across the country. "washington post" reporting this. quote, democratic state attorneys general strategized among themselves on what to do if the president refuses to accept the result and said they were most concerned of his drum beat of unfounded accusations

about fraud could undermine public confidence in the election. meanwhile, state election officials said they were considering what federal resources trump might seek to deploy before and during the election, such as the president's statement last month that he would send u.s. attorneys, sheriffs and other law enforcement officers into polling places. the preparations across america to protect our democracy from its president is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. senior columnist at bloomberg opinion, tim o'brien. also former democratic congresswoman, contributing columnist to "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst, donna edwards is back. and retired four-star general and msnbc military analyst barry mccaffrey is here. i wish over the last four years all the people who had likened donald trump's america to a banana public could take it back so they could say it now. this does seem like the kind of conduct in which america would

send election watchers and america would seek to spread democratic goals and practices if it were a third world country struggling as we are right now. what do you think? >> we have never seen anything like this, literally, since 1860 and the start of the civil war. i don't believe we're going to end up in trouble at all. i believe our institutions, the congress, the supreme court, federal law enforcement, the media are all going to do their job. so i don't believe we're going to end up in a crisis. if we do, the one thing i can assure you is the u.s. armed forces will not be part of the dispute resolution. so i do think that we are possibly going to end up with some bizarre situation, courtesy of the electoral college where we end up with nancy pelosi or chuck schumer or senator grassley as the next president of the united states.

i hope it doesn't happen. but this is a rogue president, a lawless actor. we've never seen anything like this threatening the foundation of u.s. democracy. >> because it would reassure me, i'd like you to take me through where your faith in institutions comes from. as a student of patterns, the pattern has been that every time we've said that in the last four years, the institution has folded. whether it was the justice department, whether it was the mueller probe, whether it was the impeachment process, whether it was congress. every time we've uttered that sentence, the institutions will hold, we've been wrong. so just let's go through the scenario that's been articulated. donald trump will only call a defeat invalid. he is likely to accept a victory. how do we deal with the fact that this is a president who a victory would be the trigger or the light switch for an

investigation, frankly, because most polls have him 8 to 10 points behind. what do we do at that point, a president who declares victory? >> well, i think the one thing we're sure about on the constitutional resolutions like the president that noon on the 20th of january, this guy isn't the president anymore if there's a disputed election. he's gone. he's out of office. from then on it gets murky. if there's a significant electoral victory for vice president biden, which i expect is going to happen, there won't be a problem. so it's going to be an unusual situation with a tie vote or something along those lines before we see the congress be put front and center to resolve the dispute. potentially, the supreme court. but again, i don't think we should lose confidence in the media to be aggressive,

objective and on this situation. the house of representatives has tried to do a job. we have problems with the senate republicans, to my astonishment. some of these guys are american patriots. they are adult-educated guys and they are sitting there mute with this kind of travesty of justice going on. so again, i think we ought to have confidence, and i am sure that the u.s. armed forces 2.1 million men and women, active guard and reserve, are not going to be in the streets for or against donald trump. if there's a law enforcement requirement, probably a u.s. federal marshal with a warrant that goes over and evicts trump from the white house if it came to that. >> general, let me ask you from where your confidence in the men and women of the military comes from. and i don't mean this harshly, but it was only after the fact, after days and weeks of brutal

press that general milley made a video apologizing for his role in wearing combat fatigues and participating in the clearing of largely peaceful protesters from lafayette square. mim jiller resigned from an advisory committee. but it wasn't an affront to the military that people saw in the moment and said no. i guess my question is about, what do you think happens in the moment when donald trump, as he's expected to do, seeks to use the military in an inappropriate way? >> look, the armed forces are used to following the instructions the secretary of defense and president of the united states, there's no question about it. and there's a presumption these are legal orders. i've known general milley since he was a lieutenant colonel. he's one of the most intelligent, transparent, law-based princeton graduates we've ever had in uniform. big athlete. he's just a tremendous combat

leader. he got caught by surprise coming out of the white house and ended up in a photo op, backpedalled into the crowd the minute he figured it out, unlike the secretary of defense, and disappeared. and i think after a period of agony on, what do we do, he came out with a very straightforward apology in a statement, as did the chief staff of the united states army. so again, nicolle, i feel pretty confident that there is 100% reliability that the armed forces will respect the constitution of the united states. more importantly, they'll not be involved in a disputed election. the problem is going to be in the house of representatives or in the senate. and if they can't sort it out, there's some scenarios out there that are incredible. then they'll end up in the supreme court. but we'll get a presidential decision, and i think if trump unilaterally tries to pull a

coup at noon on the 20th, he's out. nobody will follow his instructions anymore to include the armed forces. >> i want to stay on this topic and bring you in, donna edwards. this is a letter "the new york times" mentions in that report that i quoted from sent august 11th to the aforementioned general milley from john nadal and paul yingling. as i said, helene cooper references this in her piece. in a few months time you may have to choose between defying a lawless president or betraying your constitutional oath. we write to assist you in thinking clearly about that choice. if donald trump refuses to leave office at the expiration of his constitutional term, the united states military must remove him by force and you must give that order. due to a dangerous confluence of circumstances, the once unthi unthinkable scenario of authoritarian rule in the united states is now a very real possibility. donna? >> you know what, nicolle, it's

really staggering we're even having this conversation. and the reason that we're having it is because the president of the united states has not just hinted. he has said very clearly that he will not accept the results of the election. and i think that this is one of many occasions where we have to take the president at his word. and i think that we have to be prepared, all of us who are in public life and who are in our -- within our institutions, have to be prepared to take the steps that will allow us to use the constitutional tools that we have to remove him from office. and i do share general mccaffrey's confidence that we have institutions that have been bent, but they are not broken. and it's going to take all of us to summon them up.

and so i think that, you know, calling for patience and calm and making sure the american people understand that we don't have a decision on election day. we have an election season. and we have to wait for every single one of those votes to be counted. and then we have to trust the result based on the confidence that we have in local elections officials all across this country. and depend on leaders who will finally step forward inside and outside of government to ensure that the american people can have confidence in the result and that donald trump will be effectively removed from office if he doesn't win the election. >> donna, let me just follow up because it's not just those gentlemen who don't have confidence that people will reflexively do the right thing. jim miller resigned from the defense science board after the

pentagon participated in that clearing of lafayette square. and i hear what you and general mccaffrey are saying, but i guess i'm going to read this to you and then, secretary esper's nickname is yesper. i guess i want to follow up because i wonder if these agencies and institutions are led by the right men and women. let me read from jim miller's resignation letter to esper. you have made life and death decisions in combat overseas. soon you may be asked to make life and death decisions about using the military on american streets and against americans. where will you draw the line, and when will you draw it? and it's my understanding that jim miller wrote this letter, not because he had a crystal ball and could foresee that we would come to this, but because he had deep anxiety about the man leading the pentagon and put this in writing way back when the lafayette square crisis happened. where will you draw the line, and when will you draw it?

do you feel that esper has drawn a line that you're comfortable in? >> i don't have confidence in the top leadership, the appointed leadership at the department of defense. i do have confidence in the men and women of the military who understand their oath and commitment and will not obey a lawless president. and so, you know, i don't want to be a pollyanna because the president of the united states has sent a really clear signal, and it is a clear and present danger to our republic. at the same time, i want to make sure that americans understand that as voters, we also have a say in what happens and how this happens. and we can't just cede it to this lawless president of the united states. and that there are people within those institutions, even if it is at the senior leadership, there are people within those

institutions who understand what their constitutional responsibility is, and i trust that they are going to uphold them. >> tim, you come at this from a different standpoint, and i think it might be important and reassuring and in some ways it's almost comical. he's not a powerful but malevolent autocrat, but a toddler. explain. >> donald trump has been doing this his whole life. he lacks the maturity and the sophistication to accept responsibilities for his own mistakes. and he has spent decades blaming other people and finding these outside forces that are taking his candy away, whether he's trying to explain why he put six corporations into bankruptcy, why he failed in a number of business ventures down to the most petty things like why his reality tv show didn't get an emmy. it was always that things are rigged. everyone is against him.

in 2016, when he got far behind in the polls. and i think he and everyone else on his campaign did not think he was going to win that race. that's when his -- the rhetoric about a rigged election escalated because i think what he was searching for, rather than a real desire to get his hands on the machinery and turn it over was to explain away his own failures because he is a small, petty, insecure man who lacks any concern about the impact of his decisions around the people he confronts. and i think the real challenge of donald trump has always been what he does to the people around him because who he is has always been telegraphed. what he's doing right now is what he did in 2016. i'm not saying by any means that means we shouldn't steel ourselves for what he and his children now are doing to try to corrupt american sensibilities about the legitimacy of this election. but the reality is, when

pushpack happens to bullies, they back down. and president trump is a profound bully. what he's doing now, he's testing all of the institutions, that both general mccaffrey and donna have identified, and he's asking -- he's forcing all of us to stand up. and the first place this is going to really hit are in swing states in battles with secretaries of state in those swing states who have to adjudicate the elections. >> you know, tim o'brien, i will confess this right now. i was deep in the donald trump archives last night watching a 1992 interview between him and howard stern. and you are right. i mean, he is weak. he is vain. and he is insecure about supremacy. like so he's insecure about -- he needs to be boosted and howard stern was brilliant at boosting his ego which is probably why that friendship flourished. but i want to try to nail you down on what forces this

confrontation to end in a good way for democracy and a bad way from president trump. because you just articulated how this might end. he's a bully. he'll seek to bully local election officials. i mean, they should all gird for the incoming twitter attacks from them. but there is a pattern now. he took off after democratic governors, governors cuomo and whitmer and others during covid. they're all still standing. he's attacked me on twitter. he's attacked you on twitter. we're all still here and functioning. at the end of the day he's a blowhard who blows words, and is it your sense that if the military pushes back, if they refuse to take an order that they view as unlawful, does he back down? >> i think, of course, he'll back down. and i suspect it won't even get to that point. again, i think we're going to have to rely on republican and democratic secretaries of state who monitor the vote. it will be in six or seven swing states where trump's lawyers will try to rush in there and

contest the legitimacy of the ballot. it won't be a national effort. and i think as long as those folks stand tall, that will be the first line of defense. there's no question that trump and don junior, who has taken to twitter to incent people to go to the streets and join the quote/unquote trump army to do election monitoring, are going to be a presence in the street. they are inciting riots. i hope at the local level, local police make sure the poll places are safe and undisturbed. and we can do this. voters can vote. the media can pay attention to this. politicians can keep their hands on the wheel. and the military can stand by because i don't think they'll need to go into the streets. but if it comes to that, i don't believe the military will do what donald trump tells them to do because they recognize him for exactly who he is. >> tim o'brien, donna edwards, general mccaffrey. it's a conversation in a million years i never thought we'd be

having, but thank you all for having it with us. when we come back, a raw and emotional day on capitol hill as americans say their final good-byes and thank yous to a legend. what exactly does it say that two of the most powerful republican men in washington didn't have time to make it. and we are four days away from the first presidential debate. how joe biden and his team are trying to stay focused through what the former vice president is calling a typical trump distraction. plus, the fight isn't over. the new front in the battle for justice are in breonna taylor and her family. all those stories still coming up. don't go anywhere. e. helps you redefine what's possible... now. from the hospital shifting to remote patient care in just 48 hours... to the university moving hundreds of apps quickly to the cloud... or the city government going digital to keep critical services running. you are creating the future--

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it was a noticeable absence during today's memorial service for justice ruth bader ginsburg on capitol hill. the two top republican leaders of the bipartisan big four, mitch mcconnell and house minority leader kevin mccarthy, no-shows. the bipartisan front of our nation's congressional leaders who normally attend services of this magnitude awol. as republicans and democrats on the hill prepare to face off over donald trump's pick to fill the ginsburg seat on the supreme court which donald trump is scheduled to announce tomorrow. joining our conversation is former u.s. attorney joyce vance and white house correspondent for pbs news hour yamiche alsindor. do we know who it is and is the white house grappling with the politics of this, which are far from a boon for donald trump? >> the white house is grappling with the politics of this.

we don't know who the pick is. we have the list of final contenders, it seems. one of them being judge amy barrett. someone who is a devout catholic who is seen as a conservative darling. she's had some tough questioning, especially in 2017 during her confirmation hearing over her connection with a christian group. they are seen as really conservative and have some real issues when it comes to the terms they use. there are critics of that group that say they use the term handmaid and that's connected to the dystopian handmaid but there are people defending her saying her values, including the vice president of the united states, mike pence, her conservative values are an asset and that she should be seen as someone who would be a good pick. there's also barbara lagoa. cuban american woman who was the first hispanic woman to serve on the court. she is someone who also voted

against felons being able to vote unless they paid those court fines and fees in florida. so the president believes this is going to be a pick that's going to help him likely with evangelical voters and people who are pro-life. the white house has been very remiss to say whether they actually are going for the actual overturning of roe v. wade. i pressed the white house press secretary on that. she would not answer the question but we understand the president said in 2016 that he wants to overturn roe v. wade and he'd do so if given the opportunity. so there's a lot of politics at play and this pick will be a big one for president trump and likely an election strategy. >> so joyce, all of this is already in motion as yamiche said. this is the top contender. someone whose affil yagiations outside the mainstream, even of modern catholicism. here's how many people view roe as settled law. don't want it touched.

62% of all americans. that's not 62% of democrats or 62% of women. 62% of all americans want it left alone. donald trump is putting on the bench someone whose stated affiliations, whether he wants them to or not, would to be vote against roe, to rewrite decades of settled law. more conservative than any of the justices george w. bush advanced, roberts or alito. someone more conservative, perhaps on this question. you don't know until you see her function, than even kavanaugh and gorsuch. this, to me, seems like -- if you take that donald trump's twitter feed is a window into his political trepidation, this is the opposite of what he wants to be communicating to suburban women in the final 40 days of a presidential campaign, that he's losing. >> it's a very interesting situation that lays out the

different constituencies trump has to please with his balancing act if he hopes to be re-elected. more important than public opinion on roe vs. wade is the fact that it is the law of the land. and when we're talking about a supreme court jurist, we're entitled to a judge who will respect the law without regard to their personal beliefs. so i'm not particularly concerned about her personal religious practices. i do think she needs to be thoroughly questioned by the senate about whether she can check those beliefs at the door and decide cases strictly on the basis of the law with no reference to her personal beliefs. i'm going to give you a personal example. my father-in-law was an 11th circuit judge, one step down from the supreme court. he was a religious episcopalian, deeply opposed to the death penalty. the 11th circuit had to rule on a lot of death penalty cases and the law often required him to affirm those cases and impose the death penalty.

we knew he didn't like it. every time he had a death penalty case, his one-piece jumpsuit would go out and he'd weed the entire front yard and then he'd go and do his job. he'd follow the law and the facts and reach the right outcome. i had so much respect for him because he was committed to the law, even at the expensive his personal beliefs. that's what we're entitled to expect from judges in our system. >> it's an important point, but the polls also show that americans don't trust donald trump to pick somebody like that. and if he is still interested in winning nevada, ohio or pennsylvania, fox news suggests he shouldn't make this pick at all. in nevada, 10% advantage for joe biden on the question of who would you like to nominate the country's next supreme court justice. in ohio, which is basically a red state until this year, 6% advantage for joe biden on who the people of ohio would like to make this pick to the supreme

court. and in pennsylvania, a nine-point advantage for joe biden on who the people of pennsylvania would like to make the selection to this open seat on the united states supreme court. >> even with those polls, the president is really hoping that this supreme court nominee and confirmation process that happens and ends before election day will do two critical things for him. he's hoping it riles up the base. he's hoping there are evangelical women and christians, white people in the suburbs specifically, who are looking at him and are really wondering whether or not they can vote for him again and are troubled by some of the things he said. his handling of the coronavirus. the fact that the united states is having such a time struggle with this. that there are so many americans who have died, more than 200,000, and are wondering whether or not they want another four years of scandal and chaos with president trump. and president trump is hoping that if he puts someone, a judge barrett on the bench and that

the conservatives get a 6-3 majority in the supreme court, that they'll be -- that they will be able to really look at him and say, okay, fine. we can give you another four years because we're getting conservative goals. the other thing he's hoping for, if there's a contested election, he said it very clearly that he wants a ninth justice on the supreme court so if there is a discrepancy with the vote or that vote is seen as not being counted eed that he can have a justice on his side. that's sometimes remarkable. obviously we know the supreme court has a conservative and liberal issues there, but this is a president saying, i want someone to rule in my favor if it comes to that. he's saying, i want to make sure that this is all tilted in my favor. what the president is doing, he's not looking at these polls. he's saying what's best for me and what can i do to try to turn this thing around? as we know, president trump, some of the things that are really troubling his campaign

has v to have to do with the fact the president downplayed the coronavirus, used racist language and other things that have hurt his standing among suburban women. >> you know, and, joyce, having -- as a veteran of presidential campaigns, donald trump's political problem is not that his base isn't juiced enough. they're so juiced their adrenal blands are depleted. the problem is there aren't enough of them and the very people he needs to add are the people who are -- what yamiche just described, repugnant. he wants to stack the court because he can't win at the ballot box. there are people who will let him do anything. shoot people on fifth avenue. they're already with him. those are the people that yamiche just described. the only people that he's going to stack the court and maybe issue a loyalty tefrkts those are the ones at his rallies wearing masks. they are the ones still there. the ones that trump thinks he needs, the one that trump is tweeting at are the ones that are going to be repelled by

another attempt at cheating. >> the statistics on this are very solid. the overwhelming majority of the american people don't believe that he should be appointing a new justice this close to the election. it simply violates our sense of fair play. and, of course, there's context here. we know that barack obama appointed a very moderate justice or potential justice in merrick garland, someone who appealed to both democrats and republicans because he was a moderate jurist. and that eight months ahead of the election, the republicans pulled the plug and said no. many of them refused to meet with merrick garland. so it's not surprising that people on both sides of the aisle, but particularly the people that the president needs to appeal to in these closing days ahead of the election, feel like this violates american tradition and fair play. and it's not something that they support. one wonders if he will see that.

in some ways he may do better if this vote didn't occur before the election, if he had a narrative that told people he had to win so that the vote could take place afterwards. >> yeah, now that's an interesting point, although they never seem to be able to find that little parachute once the train -- or the plane, i'm mixing metaphors. but good point. j joyce, thanks. after the break, as americans begin to wonder and worry about whether or not we'll have a peaceful transfer of power, there's one man who doesn't seem to worry about it much at all. his name is joe biden. new comments from the former vice president next.

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joe biden this morning taking a break from debate prep to pay his respects to justice ruth bader ginsburg as she became the very first woman to lie in state at the u.s. capitol ever. biden's focus remains on the november election as donald trump continues to try to rattle americans and american tradition by refusing to agree to a peaceful transfer of power and accept the results. biden sat down with msnbc's steph ruhle this afternoon and explained why trump's attempts to delegitimize the election won't go anywhere. >> this time he has the power of the oval office behind him. does that not put our democracy at risk, given the power he has and the position he's taking? >> i just don't think the power of the oval office depends on

those in authority to enforce what he says. and, you know, you already have six members of his administration who were four-star generals and major positions and on homeland security and the like who said this guy is not fit to be president. i don't think he's going to get the fbi to follow him or anybody else to enforce something that's not real. now what i do -- am concerned about is whether he generates some kind of response in a way that unsettles the society or causes some kind of violence. >> joining our conversation is axios political reporter hans nichol. yamiche is still here. you have a bunch of reporting about an effort that -- it isn't secret but it isn't really being telegraphed about how the biden campaign is preparing for this. talk about it. >> well, there are two things going on. one, there's the legal strategy. but before that, there's a political strategy. and the best legal strategy is a big political win. and that's what we're hearing

from biden officials is that, you know, this doesn't have to be an issue. if joe biden has a landslide, donald trump is not going to be able to question the results of the election and there won't be huge legal battles. that said, the lawyers on both sides are doing what lawyers are paid to do. and that is look around corners and think of every possible contingency. and one of the places they're focusing on, mostly democratic lawyers, as you said. the biden campaign doesn't want to telegraph what they're doing. they want to tip their legal strategy but there is concern about pennsylvania. and what would happen if you had two slates of electors. you have those that are chosen on election day with mail-in ballots and a second group that maybe the state legislator says actually this is the real one. how do you adjudicate that? and that's a difficult problem. >> you know, hans, i don't understand why -- just taking your first point on the political strategy. why don't they box donald trump in and say, if you don't trust the vote then you don't trust

the vote. agree that you will invalidate it, either any outcome or no outcome. but why are we sort of fighting on trump's terrain that only a trump defeat would be questioned. if you look at all the polls and what the intelligence community has said about putin's plan to help trump and hurt biden, the only suspicious outcome based on the polling and the intelligence would be a trump win. >> so you get a radically different view talking to republican attorneys. talking to people in the rnc and the trump campaign. and that is they question the validity of these ballots, of naked ballots, of whatever mail-in ballots that are out there. now we can have a separate conversation on how legitimate those concerns are and whether or not the facts actually bolster them. there's not a lot of evidence to suggest that there is a huge problem with mail-in voting, even groups like the heritage foundation. but that's the argument that donald trump is trying to make. and what you hear or read between the lines for what biden folks are saying, democrats

around town, they don't necessarily want to engage with that argument head-on help any time you engage with it head-on with donald trump, you're playing on his terrain. that's in part why the biden campaign is not really previewing their legal plan because they want to keep this focused on the politics. and getting people out to vote, whether it's in person or mail-in ballots and winning on election day, i mean, you look at the polls this morning. you can see how joe biden could roll through donald trump pretty quickly in some of the midwestern states, and i stumbled there because i was going to do a pac-10, big 12 analogy but you can see -- you can see a way where joe biden has a big win and he just rolls through the second and -- as you said, there have to be votes. >> you know, yamiche, i watched the white house chief of staff who i think used to be in congress just debase himself and debase the office of the

presidency with this smear against the current fbi director, christopher wray this morning on the cbs morning show who when the anchor pushed back and said there's no evidence of widespread voter fraud, your own hand-picked fbi director testified to that under oath and he said, well, he's having a hard time finding a bunch of emails. why are they in a circular firing squad shooting at their own executive branch over this? >> well, the main reason is because they are really trying to all work to convince americans that somehow the election that hasn't even happened yet is rigged. and mark meadows is in this position where the president has said over and over again that there is voter fraud but there's massive voter fraud. even though there isn't any evidence and mark meadows now defending that. there's reporting from "the new york times," maggie haberman, that said just a few weeks ago, mark meadows was the one trying to defend the fbi director wray

from getting fired by donald trump. so what you have here is really this feeling that donald trump has been laying the groundwork for a long time to make the case to people that the election is not fair and that if he doesn't win, that something must have gone wrong and the election was rigged, rather than the fact he has simply, through his problems responding to the coronavirus and so many other things, that he has simply not won himself a second term. >> maybe mark meadows should check in with general kelly or reince priebus to see how this job usually ends. hans nichols, yamiche alcindor, thanks for spending time with us. steph's full interview with joe biden will air as part of the attitude national business conference, msnbc will have full coverage of that tomorrow on weekends with alex witt at 12:00 noon. after the break, we've heard it before.

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kraft. for the win win. if you want us to accept the results, then release the transcript. release the transcript so we can have transparency. and if you did everything that you could do on breonna's

behalf, you shouldn't have any problem whatsoever, daniel cameron, to releasing the transcript so that we can see you fought for all of kentucky's citizens. especially including tamika palmer's daughter breonna taylor. release the transcript. >> that was breonna taylor's family attorney ben crump demanding more transparency at an emotional news conference today in louisville. crump is calling on kentucky's attorney general, daniel cameron, to release evidence into how the grand jury reached its decision not to hold anybody responsible for taylor's killing. that decision has led to another day of protests across the country as frustrations continue to rise. we also, for the first time since wednesday's announcement, heard from taylor's family. her aunt read this statement from taylor's mother. >> i knew cameron would never do his job, but what i do know is

that him and countless others will go to bed sleeping with breonna's face still hearing her say her name. cameron alone didn't fail her but the officer who told a lie to obtain a lie to obtain a search warrant failed her. the judge that signed the search warrant failed her. the terrorist that broke down her door failed her. the system as a whole has failed her. >> joining our conversation, red line re line, reverend al sharpton. people want to know whether there's further recourse for breonna taylor. what's the answer? >> well, i think part of the recourse is that mr. cameron, the state attorney general, is a protege of mitch mcconnell, who is majority leader of the

senate, but the senator from kentucky who faces election in kentucky in about five weeks, little more than five weeks. i think that certainly i have been talking to some of the ministers and grass roots leaders on the ground that there can be a political answer by really voting in that election in the name of breonna taylor against the one blocking the george floyd police injustice act from going before the senate, that is their senator, mitch mcconnell, who will not let it go to the floor. they're also voting, you have a new administration, new attorney general, you may have a new attorney general if they find the basis to do it to come in with a federal investigation. you can't hope for that under william barr, but clearly it is not out of the -- the clock has not run with the new attorney general next year, if in fact

that happens. and you need to keep the pressure on in the streets in terms of nonviolent protests. if you look at the litany of cases, then you see why the breonna taylor case is also, shows, is representative of what happened to george floyd, to amad arbury, those cases were indictments in all those cases, none in breonna's. the system isn't working because those enforcing the law are not enforcing the law as in the case of mr. cameron. >> to your point, what was so interesting about breonna taylor's aunt's statement that we just showed, she would like to see some accountability for all of the fatal steps that were taken before breonna taylor was killed and i guess tragically you and i meet too often when a

family is grieving an unjustified shooting, in this case murder of a young woman. what is the reality that any of those other steps will be reexamined and anyone held to account around the search warrant or judge that signed the search warrant or other steps that she tried to draw attention to in her statement today, rev. >> the reality is as she said, the system failed breonna. that was the mother's statement read today. that's what the mother said on march on washington, the mother spoke there just four weeks ago today. that's the reality. the other real reality of it is that when the new administration came in three years ago under donald trump, they cancelled all of the consent decrees on those states that had to deal with policing that would be guided and supervised by the justice department. they stopped that. that needs to be reinstituted

because that chain that led to the failure there could have been dealt with differently if there was a consent decree over louisville. this administration has done nothing there. remember, nicolle, everyone in this chain comes out of the politics of the matter. state attorney general was elected, many of those in the police force are put there by elected officials, and elevated, so there must be a moral as well as political response and redo in order for the system to work and for it not to work was also a political decision. >> rev, you know all of the families. how is the family holding up? >> the family is distraught. i mean, just because they got a settlement, that's not justice. you can't pay for the right to kill that woman, miss palmer's daughter. money can't get that away,

relieve the pain and suffering. every day she wakes up her daughter is dead for no reason, who did nothing, even according to the police, there was nothing established to cause them to shoot her, even if -- they demanded they release the grand jury minutes. we don't know what they put in front of the grand jury. we don't know if they knew all of the evidence or not until the minutes are released, and when you look at what we do know, we do know that breonna taylor did not fire a gun, she was not involved in anything wrong, and even if she had been, and she has not been implicated in any way, to shoot her six times, and nobody not be indicted for reckless manslaughter, only indicted one policeman for being reckless with her neighbors and not her and she's dead, and they said the ambulance was 20

minutes away before they responded, she laid there dying, in the absence of any law or power of compassion for a human being, and someone needs to be accountable, particularly among the police that operated that way as well as those in the chain that the aunt made out in the mother's statement from the judge all the way to those officers that were involved in directing officers at that house. >> rev, thank you for spending some time with us and helping us understand where things stand today. we're really grateful. up next, sewing the seeds of election doubt and discord with a little help from your friends, the politization of the justice department is complete, with a little more than five weeks to go. next hour of "deadline: white house" coming your way next. don't go anywhere. oming your wa. don't go anywhere.

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i have a pretty good idea of the method of his madness and what he might try to do to undermine. he is trying to have the constitution of the united states swallow clorox. >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in the east. with the vast majority of all national statewide and battleground polling showing donald trump is likely to lose the november election to joe biden, polls showing voters oppose his imminent appointment of a far right anti-choice, anti-obamacare justice to replace justice ruth bader ginsburg, donald trump and his attorney general appear to be on the precipice of shredding the united states constitution or as

nancy pelosi says, cloroxing it in a brazen power grab, even for them. donald trump's campaign to steal the november election by delegitimizing any outcome other than what is now an unlikely win is headquartered in donald trump's west wing, but its plumbers are attorney general bill barr and his deputies. from the "new york times," the justice department thursday released details about an investigation into nine discarded mailed in ballots in pennsylvania. it is an unusual step that stoked new fears that president trump's political appointees were using levers of law enforcement to sew doubt about the election. importantly, the doj and the white house are now at odds with the current fbi director, christopher wray, that maintains no widespread voter fraud is occurring. >> we have not seen historically any kind of coordinated national

voter fraud effort in a major election, whether by mail or otherwise. >> those comments brought about a smear this morning from donald trump's chief of staff, mark meadows, on cbs this morning. >> their own fbi director says he has seen no evidence of widespread voter fraud by mail or otherwise. >> well, with all due respect to director wray, has a hard time finding emails in his own fbi, whether or not finding out about voter fraud. >> leaking of an ongoing investigation by doj into nine ballots is the proverbial tip of the iceberg. breaking this afternoon, a startling detail from "new york times." times writes attorney general william barr briefed president trump on the details of ongoing voter fraud investigation. that same ballot investigation in pennsylvania, a highly unusual move that raised new

questions about any role the department has in mr. trump's re-election bid. the times also adds new reporting to our understanding of perhaps the most politically charged investigation into his politically adversaries. john durham investigation, into origins of the russia probe and one that has broadened and now includes the clintons. mr. durham's focus on the clinton foundation comes as concerns deep enamong democrats. the bow tying on bill barr comes from watchdog michael bromwich. a big day for the not normal at doj. not normal for evidence to be released in the midst of a criminal investigation, durham. not normally for investigations to be announced when commenced. violations of practices,

protocols and norms. the doj on a political footing not seen since watergate is where we start this hour. some of our favorite reporters and friends. acting solicitor general, legal analyst, kneel cot yal, and "new york times" washington correspondent and msnbc national security analyst, and white house correspondent kara lee. what does this picture look like? >> it looks incredibly ugly. at this point, the justice department should be called barr and trump llp. the justice department is really the president's own personal law firm. not which one, barr or trump, is a worse lawyer. the white house and the justice department have historically had a contacts policy. worked on it in my first job at the justice department, it governs when you can have communications between justice department and white house about an ongoing investigation. it is an incredibly sensitive thing. sometimes you do, if the justice

department indicts a foreign leader or something, you give the white house a heads up. otherwise, you keep the independence. it is really important, the system of prosecution depends on independence. and the president and barr are running prosecution policy like transportation policy or something like that. but, you know, kind of a who to release, people like the president's pals like roger stone, who to go after, and the weirdest thing about the pennsylvania episode is the selective release of information to the public. i mean, not only did they disclose there was this investigation into nine ballots that were somehow discarded, they announced who they were voted for, who were supposedly the ballots were for. they said nine votes for trump. they were incompetent, they couldn't get that right. had to issue a new press statement saying it was only seven, but the whole thing is so weird and it is designed to

basically take the narrative away from chris wray who said there's not much to the voter fraud story to insinuate that there is. >> mike sh mychmidt, we mention two pieces. let me read from one of them. justice department policy calls for keeping voter fraud investigations under wraps to avoid effecting the election outcome. the experts said it was almost unheard of for the department to provide an update on the case and disclose the name of the candidate for whom the ballots had been cast. so i count at least three of the department's own practicing having been violated here, disclosing a new investigation, opening the ballots, and revealing for whom people had voted. what's going on? >> well, this is a highly unusual way of dealing with an

ongoing investigation. and as neal was pointing out, the advantageous thing is that it fits in in a way we haven't seen before. in this case, the president can say his voters, votes were not being counted, that they were being discarded and that helps advance that narrative with his base and it really softens the ground as he is softening the ground in other areas by contending justice department and that the election, there may be questions about the election coming up to it, saying he won't take the results. this gives his base the ammunition they're looking for. >> barr also briefed him on the investigation, another practice that isn't normal. what's the plan, to alienate christopher wray as the lone truth teller, to create a parallel reality? at the end of the day it doesn't

contradict christopher wray's sworn testimony. or ben ginsburg's testimony, they have been searching for voter fraud, never found any except out of donald trump's mouth. >> look, i think what's going on here is the ultimate battle for the narrative. and if donald trump can pick up different scraps to use to make his argument that voter fraud, that mail-in voting is fraudulent and is rife with it, that's advantageous for him. i think the greatest advantage the president and barr has is the bull horn of positions that come with that. and it is not necessarily clear how much the justice department legally can do. in this case, they're investigating, but the more powerful thing is the information from it and the actual notion of the investigation and the idea that trump's supporters are not being

counted. >> other than at this point it appears to be fiction, bill barr is described this way in the atlantic. he is a one man wrecking crew, set on destroying reforms in place after watergate and other checks and balances inherent in the system. public confidence is that the system is no person is above the law, rules apply to everyone equally has been shaken by recurring stark evidence during the tenure of bill barr, this simply is not true. >> yeah, nicolle, look, what we're seeing is that what's become a poor sort of piece of the president's re-election campaign is this idea that he's somehow been wronged, and barr plays into that in a number of ways, whether the president feels he has been wronged by obama administration officials that started the russia

investigation against him, whether he feels likesque wronged because there's widespread potential voter fraud out there which there is no evidence, so what you can see him doing, this is part of his re-election strategy, there is confusion out there about mail-in voting, about processes for voting, we're in the middle of a pandemic. the issues with postal service. and the president is trying to capitalize on that. that's the strategy. what you see him doing is rather than saying look, there's a problem here, here's how we're going to fix it, he's just raising the problem over and over and over again. to mike's point, the way that gets perpetuated is it doesn't take much, so there's nine ballots in this one instance in pennsylvania, which if you look at the facts of it according to nbc's reporting, this could wind up being a simple mistake by a temporary worker, but it feeds this broader narrative that the president is trying to construe to help his re-election campaign, to sew doubt, because

he is down in the polls. apparently this is the way he wants voters to think about his re-election, that he is somehow the victim. we heard from him today in atlanta at a rally there, he raised this issue again, talking about finding ballots in the waste basket and things like that. that's where bar intersects with the president's re-election campaign. that's why you see things like what you just read being written. >> you know, neal, i spoke to two democratic strategists this morning. it is incumbent on joe biden to have a legal strategy which mike and carol and others reported he does, one being run by mr. bauer, but also a political strategy, and why isn't joe biden asking whether an outcome that results in trump's victory,

which would be something we know russia is working toward, which we know that all the polls suggest today at least is highly unlikely. is there more that joe biden can do to use this as a political thing against donald trump? >> i will answer that, before doing that, mike called these barr, doj allegations highly unusual. i just want to be clear about this. it is not just highly unusual. what you described in the last ten minutes is lawless. it is corrosive. he's basically saying trump can't trust his own fbi director. trump fired the last one, comey, put another person in, wray, and now is sending his chief of staff out to impugn him, too. so this kind of victim mentality, everyone is against him, even trump's own appointees is getting a little tired and ridiculous. with respect to what biden can do, i think he is taking the right principled high road, to not try to impugn integrity of

the election, to have faith in america and have faith in the american people and voters and the system instead of doing what tru trump is trying to do is insinuate garbage and nonsense about it. i really like his approach. that's the true american approach as opposed to the russian influenced approach. >> let me press you a little bit, neal. has it worked for anybody else? did it work for adam schiff and impeachment managers, for mr. mueller and his deputies? has it worked yet? >> you're right about that, hasn't worked yet. but presidential elections are a different moment in our nation's consciousness. there's unprecedented degree of attention toward this election and realization that the stakes are different than who is accusing who of corruption in washington. 200,000 plus americans have died at this point, and if that doesn't focus the american

public's attention, i'm not sure what will. >> mike, let me come back to you on the other piece of times reporting that we mentioned, that mr. durham's probe is now expected to focus at least in part on the clinton foundation. what's that about? >> well, just yet another sort of mysterious part of this investigation and how is it that the clintons and their foundation plays into what originally was an investigation into the roots of the 2016 crossfire hurricane investigation to the president's campaign. you know, i mean, look, investigations can go in different ways and you can open new doors, find different things, but given the president's narrative and the attorney general's rhetoric on the issue, and that i think is the most important point here, it is the fact that the attorney general and the president have spoken so much about whether it is the durham investigation or

mail-in voting. when anything around these issues happens, the perception is immediately cast against them, and that's because they talked about it so much. there's a reason there was this norm that was developed in the years after watergate about not talking about investigations because it is an issue of perception. now you have a story about how they're looking into stuff related to the clintons, and look at that. the attorney general and the president have a problem again because they talked so much about it. >> carol, if you step back and look at the fact we're 40 days out from the election, very few people who aren't sure which way they're going to go november 3rd are holding their breath or waiting with baited breath to see how another clinton investigation will land. what is the point politically of this? to whom are they prosecuting their political enemies to please? >> nicolle, it is the same group

of voters that the president has been talking to since 2016, since he came into the white house. the durham investigation and looking into the clintons, those are things that play really well with the president's base, so that's what the play is. i mean, they're looking at this as a vote turnout game. get your voters out as much as you can, try to suppress the other vote. that's where these sort of multiple different threads come together, and that's why something like looking into the clintons, comparing that investigation to how the russian investigation started, anything involving comey, the fbi director, the russian investigation, it gets the president's supporters fired up and that's part of their goal. fire up the president's base, try to suppress voters elsewhere, and that's why you see him doing what he's doing. >> neal, i'll give you the final word, whether you think that's what is missing.

it would seem that donald trump's base is so juiced, they're attending rallies mask free, on top of one another. if you trust his twitter feed as a window into who he is worried about, it isn't people waiting for a result in the clinton foundation investigation, it is suburban women that strayed for him that voted for democrats in 2018 and are giving joe biden big leads in most of the battleground states. >> i think you're absolutely right. i think the president himself is probably worried about this. tomorrow, he will nominate a justice that will replace ruth bader ginsburg, a national hero who protected a woman's right to choose. and it is by all accounts, putting someone in to overturn roe vs wade, that's what members of his party are calling for, what he said he wants to do. i think trump is very worried about women coming out and voting, that's why he is trying to rush the nominee through to give him another vote on the

supreme court with an election dispute. and he basically said that yesterday, nicolle, he said i need that ninth justice up there because of election dispute. i can't think of anything more corrosive than a statement like that from the president of the united states. i need another justice up there to vote for me because i'm essentially not sure the people are going to vote for me. >> we will see how it all works out. maybe i'm wrong. maybe the clinton foundation investigation is the silver bullet for the suburbs. when we return, olivia troye is speaking out against trump again. with fears he could use the military against election protesters, her latest message is resonating loud and clear. that story is next. plus, donald trump will announce his nominee to the

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more dangerous and corrupt president than trump. he's harming our basic values, giving rise to hate, and he's selling out america to big corporations. i'm working to protect immigrants, women, communities of color, and lgbtq people. and i'm making corporations like pg&e and insurance companies play by our rules. we need experienced leadership to wipe away trump's stain on america for good.

after everything i have seen two years working in the white house, what was the breaking point was the day of the lafayette square incident with the president.

watching someone carry a bible, tear up peaceful protesters in a violent way, as a person of faith, it was a really dark moment. that was a moment i had to sit down, dig deep, and say no matter how hard i work, it doesn't matter because the president is so disconnected from the reality of the problems across our country. we will no longer be america after four more years of trump. >> olivia troye had a front row seat to one of the most consequential, talked about days of the trump presidency, when the story of his presidency is written sooner or later, what happened in lafayette square in june will likely have its own chapter or chapters, not just for what it meant at the time. it was immediately obvious clearing protesters using the military was extraordinarily inappropriate. also what it meant for our future. terrific reporting in "new york times" indicating senior leaders at the pentagon speaking anonymously acknowledged they

were talking among themselves what to do if mr. trump who will invoke the insurrection act as he repeatedly threatened to do so. eddie blie from princeton university, msnbc contributor, ring stangle join me. i'm usually conflicted about people that stay in and think they can make a difference, but this group that's come out and is filling in a lot of the blanks, miles taylor, elisabeth newman, now olivia troye, is telling important new details. we wouldn't have them if not for them telling their stories. what do you think? >> i agree with you. you know, i wish we could hear more from general mattis and others, but this is helping us. i have been saying, i know it

sounds hyperbolic, nicolle, but what we're witnessing in real time is an all out assault on american democracy. we know we have an executive branch that's rogue, we know we're experiencing a broken senate. we have seen now attempt to politicize the military. and of course to politicize the courts. for me, coming out of the tradition of which i come, idea of deploying military or police or sheriffs harkens to days of jim clark, bull connor, where there was use of deployment of the state to scare and harass and terrorize black voters. so this is in some ways indicative of the underbelly of american political life, but it is in some ways reflection on the assault on american democracy. i'm thankful for these folks, nicolle. >> let's stick there in the underbelly. let me show you more of what olivia troye saw, the underbelly

of the truck white house. >> he wants people out on the streets. the president claims to be pro-law enforcement. he is putting our law enforcement in harm's way purposely because he thinks it serves his agenda. i would say to my colleagues, if you're going to speak out, right now is when it matters most. we all lived it. we know president trump cares only about himself, given where we are as a country, now is the time to tell the truth. >> 40 days and counting. where is the window for hearing these kinds of accounts about his real motives? the law and order campaign is as olivia troye described, one that puts law enforcement in harm's way purposely because he thinks it is part of his political agenda. >> yes. it is very powerful what she has to say. i'm glad she has spoken out, glad that others have as well. i think that it simply confirms what we all know about him already, what voters know about

him already. i am concerned about use of the military as a prop as he used them in lafayette square, the way a third world dictate or would use generals with medals. i think the idea of invoking the insurrection act is absurd. i mean, a little bit of history. that was passed because thomas jefferson thought there was a rebellion in the works against the country, the country was only 20 years old. i mean, the idea of using the insurrection act for some demonstrations, constitutionally protected demonstrations is absurd. it is the kind of thing again a third world tin pot dictator would do. i believe the generals, joint chiefs of staff, secretary of defense wouldn't want to be used as political props. i am cautiously optimistic our military who care so much about

the country, care about the body politic, who cares about the civilian regard for the military that they wouldn't be coopted by a tin pot dictator. >> let me stay with you, rick, and press a little more on this idea of our national security and now homeland security threatened by the current president. this is an account out today in the denver post from someone who saw donald trump up close, was a clear national security official, worked for multiple presidents. this is what he writes. i have briefed him up close and i have seen and felt the eskt of his faults on our nation's security. out of respect for the confidential nature of oval office conversations, i will not provide details. suffice to say that the person you see presiding over covid-19 press conferences is the same one in the privacy of his

office. he has little patience for facts or data that do not comport with his personal world view, thus, the conversations are erratic, less than fully thoughtful. what do you make about the crush, rick stangle, of accounts, bob woodward has accounts from dan coats, jim mattis, we heard from olivia troye, before her, elizabeth newman, before her, miles taylor. we're hearing from robert car der oh. there isn't anyone that left trump except mcmaster that doesn't endorse trump but has a mealy mouth, incomplete picture of what he experienced inside. there's no one that left donald trump in national security capacity that can recommend him as president. >> no. i mean, all of the reports align, i'm in the middle of bob woodward's terrific book, i think i mentioned before,

bolton's book, whatever is provenance, these are things he witnessed himself. over and over, the depravity, the lunacy, childishness, pettiness, he reports it in detail in an almost scientific way so i think we know that. i think we all have to be prepared for these unconstitutional behaviors that he is possibly anticipating, particularly in that time after the election and before the inauguration, that's when the institutions of our country, the military, the court system, congress has to protect the constitutionality. we talked about the military. the military takes an oath not to defend the president of the united states, they take an oath to defend the constitution, and i believe they will do that. >> eddie, i want to come back to

you on two things rick said. one, the depravity of donald trump's presidency. two, rick is the third person today to put his faith in the institutions, but the truth is in the moment of the lafayette square clearing of protesters general milly did not do the right thing. it took him days. it was after a week, a crush of bad press from people inside and outside of the military for him to go to a video camera and record an apology. in the moment, people do not always do the right thing. do you think we're putting too much faith in our institutions? >> well, perhaps. you know, i'm still thinking of hannah errant and her phrase at the bennality of evil. the daily choices we make that in some ways enable evil to happen. following a simple order.

we have seen over and over the cascading effect of trump on our institutions in this country. and we've seen the effect of a kind of corrupt political class on those institutions. we're witnessing in real time, nicolle, erosion of democratic norms. again, you see the brokenness of the senate, how hyper partisanship has gummed up the gears of our democracy. i think it is important to have the faith but we cannot be naive. i'm not saying rick is being naive, we need to understand what donald trump is doing in terms of distraction. there are 204,000 americans that are dead. so there's that. then there's desperation. we can't forget that donald trump, when he becomes a citizen, he will be in the cross hairs of the new york attorney general. his company will be subject to investigation. this man's back is against the wall. we need to understand his character which means he's

capable of doing anything to survive. >> after that, eddie and rick are not going anywhere. they're sticking with us for a little while longer. when we return, donald trump is hoping for a political boost by pushing through a supreme court nominee before the election. but it is democrats who so far seem energized by trump plowing ahead with that. that story next. owing ahead with that. that story next. inflammatory co. inflammatory co. because there are options. like an "unjection™". xeljanz. the first and only pill of its kind that treats moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, or moderate to severe ulcerative colitis when other medicines have not helped enough. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections. before and during treatment, your doctor should check for infections, like tb and do blood tests. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b or c, have flu-like symptoms, or are prone to infections. serious, sometimes fatal infections, cancers including lymphoma, and blood clots have happened.

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replacement before the election. 57% think the nomination should wait. 19 point margin. a chance that trump's plan to nominate a conservative justice could backfire in november. the nomination is a gamble for trump. in order to achieve a 6-3 conservative majority on the court, republicans are poised to defy a clear majority of voters who have indicated in polls they want the winner of the election to pick a nominee for justice ruth bader ginsburg's seat. they're even willing to energize democratic turnout by elevating issues like abortion, if it

means achieving the long term goal of moving the court further to the right. eddie, i should note that peter baker, msnbc contributor, chief correspondent has written that donald trump has selected judge amy comey barrett. we have not confirmed that at nbc news, but two or three other news organizations have. if that is the case and because it is donald trump, things can change at any moment, something like bad press for barrett could change his opinion about that pick, she is known to be extremely conservative, has voiced her disregard for obamacare and is known to be a very trustworthy, extreme conservative voice. your thoughts? >> so between daniel cameron and judge bynum, we need to

understanding politics, what are people's positions. it is not enough to have a black man as ag, a woman on the court. we need to understand the politics that follow from their views. so we've been talking about donald trump and his limitations, and apparently he doesn't really understand political math, right? i think he is banking a lot on trying to activate those diseffected white voters with this pick. that's the only way i can say this makes any sense because he is going to activate the democratic base, nicolle, alienate suburban white women. my only guess is that he's trying to motivate diseffected white voters, try to bring them in to kind of expand his base as it were because that's the only place he can expand it. again, he is going to lose voters. i don't know what is the political motivation outside the long game of getting a conservative court for

generations. >> carol, i have been thinking since last friday night about a scoop that you and steph ruhle had about a speech john bolton gave shortly before he left the white house, before it was known how acrimonious his tenure was and the legal fight that was to come with the justice department and with the white house over prepublication of his book. i remember you and steph reported, he said with the supreme court, donald trump can't be trusted. he could put anyone on there, jared and ivanka could convince him to put a liberal on the court. the irony is the best thing for his fate would have been to appoint a moderate or someone like merrick garland. it would appear that's not the direction he appears to be heading. >> yeah, nicolle. all of the bets have been on amy coney barrett all week. people close to the president cold nbc that they expect the president would wind up picking

her. it was down to a two woman race. and the president was heavily lobbied by officials in florida who really wanted him to go with the judge that was cuban american, obviously a woman, and young, and they liked her story, thought she would have broader appeal. she was confirmed 80-15 in the senate. there was that camp. then there were some of the president's most staunchest, most core supporters, these religious conservatives that were lobbying him saying you need to pick somebody, the only acceptable nominee we would like is somebody like judge barrett, and the reason they argue that is for the reasons you said. from their point of view, she has a long paper trail. she's an established conservative. the concerns the religious conservatives have is that she didn't have a long paper trail, that's not the case with someone

like judge barrett. one of the president's allies told me, evangelical leader, bring it on. they want a big fight. they think this is something that will energize the president's base. to your point, it does not necessarily broaden the base and really energizes democrats. that's what faith leaders who are advocating for democratic candidates, told us they're going to use health care in particular. we've seen a big push to say a judge like amy coney barrett would overturn obamacare, that's detrimental to women, suburban women. if the president does nominate judge barrett, this is a real play for his core base of supporters, his standing among them has been slipping a bit and there is a desire to shore them up. it appears that he may be leaning towards siding with this camp of supporters that urged him to go with what somebody

described as purist sort of nominee that would indeed rule in the way they would hope that somebody would, particularly when it comes to roe v wade. >> you know, carol, when you work for a president, you brace for catastrophic midterms because voters sort of reach for equ equallibrium. almost always the other party wins in midterms, for president obama that was true both midterms, for president bush, true in the second. house speaker became speaker the first time in '06. there's a real risk the equilibrium they'll see if he changes the court to 6-3, whether barrett or another like her, would have a catastrophic political impact not just on trump but on mitch mcconnell's senate majority. what are the musings the white house is hearing from the

senate? >> look, there's a couple of views on this. you know, there are republicans, particularly religious conservative republicans that don't particularly care. they think this is worth it, that having the court stacked in this way with a judge like judge barrett on the bench would be worth whatever political ramifications are to come in the next cycle or the cycle after that because this is a very long game for them. president trump doesn't necessarily play a similar long game, and there could be swift backlash to him. one of the interesting things is the timing of this. there are people around the president that think why would you want to confirm this person before the november election. you want to keep it hanging out there so you can entice people to come, give them a reason to come to the polls. democrats have a similar sort of balancing act to do. >> carol lee, eddie glaude with us as some of the news seems to be shaking loose.

thank you for talking us through it all. when we come back, new predictions about end of the coronavirus pandemic and how long it will be before life starts to look anything like normal again. we'll tell you what health experts are saying. it is a far cry from what we're hearing from donald trump. deadline white house back after a quick break. d trump. deadline white house back after a quick break. and you're going to find yourself where you need to be. ♪ the race is never over. the journey has no port. the adventure never ends, because we are always on the way. ♪ ♪ i do motivational speakingld. in addition to the substitute teaching. i honestly feel that that's my calling-- to give back to younger people. i think most adults will start realizing that they don't recall things as quickly as they used to

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when the world starts spinning again, let's remember this time where none of us felt secure, and fight for a future where everyone can. because when the world seems like it's standing still... that's the perfect time for us to change it. there is no clearer sign, at least not rooted i object science and facts that the

coronavirus pandemic will be over anytime soon. yesterday, we passed another grim milestone. more than 7 million cases since the pandemic again, more than 204,000 that lost their lives. politico is out with a big picture look at where things stand. painted by tough experts on how and when life gets back to more or less normal. the startling report reads by november, 2021, most americans will have received two doses of a vaccine that while not gloriously effective fights the disease in more cases than not. meanwhile, americans continue to wear masks and avoid large gatherings and the covid-19 numbers drop steadily after a series of surges earlier in the year. eventually, as more and more americans develop immunity through exposure and vaccination and as treatments become more effective, covid-19 recedes into the swarm of ordinary illnesses americans get every winter. that's 2021, folks.

the reporting is a stark contrast to anything donald trump says, his promises that everything will be better with an election day vaccine, something he should probably read perhaps this afternoon between his indoor campaign event in atlanta and rally tonight in virginia that state officials are trying to rick is still here too. so now it's out in the open. i think dr. patel, a lot of people had sort of privately talked about. especially people with large employers, is that we are probably looking at a fall 2021 return to big companies putting their work force into big buildings with elevators and without windows that open. does that sound right to you? >> yeah and you've seen some large corporations have signaled, especially technology companies, that june, july, at a minimum, is going to be remote

work until summer, and then to be determined. i think that what you're touching on is the heart and pulse of every american town and city, if we're not going to have employees returning, when we do return, it's exactly what up. that a vaccine does not mean that we can't take these preventive measures. we have to do the distance and the masks and there's a reason for that. this virus will continue to try to infect people until there's nobody left to infect. that's how viruses work. and we have enough of a fatality rate and enough people that go into a hospital and long term outcomes that we have to take it seriously. so that's why you hear many public health experts even saying, 2022 is when things, quote, look normal. and i think that's a reasonable expectation. >> dr. patel, can you do what we always ask you to do? can you put the decision and the push to put children back into classrooms this fall, september

2020, in context with the reality that adults won't largely be going back to their work places until more than a year later. is there any other example in science or public health where children have been asked to go out there first? >> yeah, i think you can't find a single more kind of hot button shoe. as you have personally experienced, there's the thing that all parents have about being in schools and what risk that's poses to not only the children but their household and there is no other parallel. we haven't had a virus where we've had such little understanding about the role that children play. we are starting to see data, nicole, that illustrates that children are not the likely kind of first people to spread the virus. usually the pattern is that a staff member, an adult is infected, and then children are

infected. what is the trillion-dollar question that we all care about is what role do children have in, how can we predict which ones will get sick, because we know they do, and then which ones could potentially have a higher likelihood of spreading it to other children, other adults. and i think you're asking the right question. are we sending our children into harm's way simply because we're so frustrated and our policies have not supported this. the conversation would be very different. i keep talking about testing. we would feel a lot better doing this if we had very easy access. people like dr. michael, harvard and others who have advocated for almost like an easy pregnancy test type of covid test that could you do at home before you send a child to school. and that combined with trying to understand how we can continue to enforce masks, it's not political. just plain science. and i'll tell you from watching my own kids, they're much more

likely to wear a mask than many adults are in some places where they've been shamed. so i think there's a universe where we can have children safely in school and adults safely at work but these other issues have to happen in that order. and at the end of the day, we need to have reliable health insurance so when people get sick, we had 3.3 million americans lose health care because they lost their jobs in just the three months in the peak of the coronavirus. so those things go hand in hand. it's not just the virus. it is stability in all forms. >> rick stengel, there's such hard credible truths being told to the american people. how many people do you think will accept this reporting in politico that 2021 is the soonest we'll return to our new normal? >> well, i think people will have to accept it. businesses will make decisions, schools will make decisions.

i have a sophomore in college, my youngest son. he's not there on campus. but kindergartners are having to go to school. i think dr. patel put his finger on it. the colossal failure of the trump administration is around testing. if we had quick easy inexpensive testing, we would be much less worried about all of this. we wouldn't have all the doubt about vaccines. and that was a colossal failure. he used the federal government to get behind the national testing plan. your point about normal, there is no normal anymore. the new normal will be something different. i mean, you've been around, traveled around. people wear masks all the time. they wear masks on the subway, they wear masks in the street. that is what will happen in mer american cities now. every building will be structured differently. commercial real estate will go thank you change that they never have before. the new normal will be something different. we will not ever be back to the

new normal. >> rick stengel, thank you both so much for spending some time with us on these important headlines. and finally, as we do every day, we remember lives well lived. on the very day they turned 18, tommy searcy and his twin brother went down to their fire station to volunteer. what followed was years and years of honorable service. they rose through ranks and eventually made it to the houston fire department, according to click two houston. tommy was a person so full of joy, so full of love for his family and his community, he was a prankster who took his job seriously. last year he saved a colleague's life in a house fire. tommy, a father of three, died in the coronavirus in august. but we'll let the houston fire department take it from here. at tommy's memorial, a final dribble you'd over radio. >> you have committed your life to serving others.

your compassion will truly be missed. your legacy will live on. captain searcy, you were a dedicated member within this department and therefore, will be truly missed. very well, tommy. we're all finding ways to keep moving. but how do we make sure the direction we're headed is forward? at fidelity, you'll get the planning and advice to prepare you for the future, without sacrificing the things

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of color, and lgbtq people. and i'm making corporations like pg&e and insurance companies play by our rules. we need experienced leadership to wipe away trump's stain on america for good. on this friday of another 37-day week, let us thank you for letting us into your homes in these extraordinary times. "the beat" starts now with ari. >> we have a ton of friday night news so i'll get to it. i hope you have a wonderful weekend. >> we'll be watching. >> thank you. welcome to "the beat." we're tracking two big stories that are unfolding this friday night. new clues about who is now atop the short list for replacing justice ruth bader ginsburg, one name above all others emerging and we have the latest on that shortly. also the bruising clash in this

presidential campaign. more bad news for the trump campaign.