would be the youngest on the court. she's an appeals court judge who has been conservative on issues including abortion. she worked briefly in private practice before teaching for 15 years at notre dame law school. we'll dive more in judge amy coney barrett later in the show, but right now we are 38 days from election day, something president trump is infinitely more interested in than the almost 205,000 americans who are dead from covid-19 and the more than 7 million infected in the 'fa in fact, trump told one of his rally crowds, that covid-19 affects virtually nobody. followed up by a reporter the next day asking him to respond to the 200,000 deaths. trump appears as always solely focused on himself and right now that means filling ruth bader ginsburg's vak kanscancy on the supreme court. his reason is as self-issue as always, his own election. >> we need nine justices.

you need that. with the unso he liz -- it's th everybody knows that. you're going to need nine justices up there. i think it's going to be very important. because what they're doing is a hoax. i think this will end up in the supreme court. and i think it's very important that we have nine justices. and i think the system's going to go very quickly. it's better if you go before the election because i think this -- this scam that the democrats are pulling, it's a scam, this scam will be before the united states supreme court. and i think having a 4-4 situation is not a good situation. >> this scam is the american election. the president is making it clear that his supreme court pick, a lifetime appointment, is not about policy but like most everything else with president trump, it's about his own interests and his re-election. the country and the american people be damned. stacking the courts in order to

ensure you're own political survival is what happens in authoritarian regimes. so is vilifying and is you preecing the medsue preecing the media. and the trump state department rescinded a 2019 international women of courage award presented to a finnish journalist after the trump administration found social media posts that the journalist made that were critical of trump. here's another thing trump has taken straight from the authoritarian playbook. >> when you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful travel of power after the election? >> we're going to have to see what happens. you know that. i've been complaining very strongly about the ballots and the ballots are a disaster. >> i understand that, but people are rioting. do you commit to making sure that there's a peaceful transfer of power? >> if you want to get rid of the ballots and we'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a

transfer, frankly, there will be a continuation. ballots ever out ballots are out of control and you know who knows it better than anyone else? the democrats know it better than anybody else. so we have to be very careful with the ballots. that's a whole big scam. we want to make sure the election is honest and i'm not sure that it can be. >> purposely creating distrust in democratic elections is something that putin does, not the president of the united states. and yet here we are. and, yes, it's bad. the dangers that these types of comments, especially coming from the american president pose to our country and our democracy cannot be understated. one of trump's many former national security advisers general h.r. mcmaster said what trump is doing is, quote, something our founders feared. another exofficial, the four star head of the coast guard endorsing joe biden saying trump is waging an insurgency on our rights with more power being centralized at the executive level.

he was part of a group of almost 500 former national security leaders who signed a letter questioning trump's fitness for command. about his constant claims of mass voter and vote fraud fraud from his political opposition, the fbi director chris ray who trump appointed told the senate homeland security leader this week that there is no evidence of a coordinated national voter fraud effort. ray also recently testified that his biggest worry on election security is americans losing confidence in the legitimacy of the results. that is a trademark of any authoritarian regime and a cornerstone of president trump's re-election campaign. joining me now, democratic congresswoman ayana presley of massachusetts. she's a member of both the congressional black caucus and the house oversight committee. thank you for being with us. i have to say there are week has given me great pause because it looks like we have crossed a line. and i know we've heard that a lot over the last 3 1/2 years, but this line is the one in

which the president doesn't even pretend to speak in favor of a normal democratic process. now just undermining an election that he is likely to lose to allow him to retain power. >> this week has also given me pause, but it's given me resolve as well. i'm not alone in that. as people are casting their ballots in early vote, right now we see unprecedented turnout because people know that donald trump's failures, his cruelty, his callousness, is on the ballot. that's why we need to elect vice president biden and senator harris. >> talk to me about what people should do at this point. because for all of the frustration and despair and the concern about what donald trump is talking about in the end, american citizens continue to have the vote. so as long as you can till out donald trump's nonsense about

the ill legit mace cyst election, the work, the resolve that you speak of involves going out and voting and making sure you vote properly and making sure those around you know how to vote properly. >> that's right. we, the people, still have the power. and so i need you to exercise that. i need you do two things. complete your census, and i need you to cast your ballot to vote. and you can go to i will vote.com to figure out your registration status, to figure out what the early vote options are in your state. but make a plan to vote and then do it. and if you do plan on voting on november 3rd at the polls, come prepared. bring a brown bag lunch if you need to, bring a chair, make sure that nothing on instructs your ability to cast that ballot, because everything is on the line. and we see that with them putting forward amy coney barrett as his nominee, that everything is on the line. health care is on the line. immigrants' rights are on the line. my very bodily autonomy is on

the line. our civil rights are on the line. democracy is on the line. >> what can you do about the supreme court nominee that will come at some point today and the aim is to have her confirmed before the election? >> well, let me just say that not only is donald trump and his gop-led senate willing to honor the final wishes of justice ginsburg, they have contempt for the american people because they are dishonoring what two-thirds of the american people want. and that sis a confirmation process after the inauguration. and then insult to injury, trump making good on his word who would want to overturn roe v wade. instead, he does put forward someone who is antichoice, who is anti-immigrant, and that has been proven in decision time and time again. and so she is unfit. amy coney barrett is unfit, she's unqualified.

we deserve a justice who will protect our health care, who understands that every person should be able to make their own decisions about their health. and if we want to start a family. we need a justice who protects our workers and believes in a justice economy and a healthy democracy. and that nominee is not amy coney barrett. >> but when people say to you what can i do about this, if republicans in the senate insist on ramming this through before an election, something that they said in 2016 is not a fair thing to do, what can -- what can regular people do about this? >> sure. well, i'm going to do everything in my power and lobby every smar that i c senator that i can. we have to concede nothing. we have to keep applying pressure. i know these have been a sobering four years, but there are some victories that we have won and we won that with our vigilance. we the people are powerful. continue to express public outcry, continue to affirm what though 2 thirds americans say, which is that they want a

confirmation process after the inauguration of vice president biden and senator harris. and might i add when it comes to the senate, which has been a roadblock to progress all along, the fact that they have not moved on a comprehensive relief bill in the midst of this pandemic but instead, ali, they have moved on 200 plus federal judges shows that they have contempt for the american people. so keep the pressure up. cede nothing. >> there are americans who will be losing more jobs in the coming days and their apartments and their homes. and that is not something the senate is prepared to take up. thank you for joining us. joining me now, u.s. army veteran who everybodied as chief of staff to colin powell. and barbara mcquade, a professor at the university of michigan law school and an msnbc legal analyst. her latest piece in new york magazine gets at the heart of who congruent stories, ginsburg

example shows us how to save our democracy. thank you to both of you for joining us. carl, let me start with you, sir. there has been talking, we have heard that there's some people in the pentagon talking informally about what to do if donald trump invokes the insurrection act after the election, if he loses during the time when he is a lame duck president and how the military is supposed to respond to that. you are part of a group that has thought this through, thought through what the transfer of power looks like after the election. tell me your thoughts please, sir. >> your first point, ali, i think the military is going to act in accordance with the constitution. so i don't have deep concern about how the military might act. hey do have deep concern about now, even though collin powell was right when he said trump is a proverbial liar, that all he does is lie, i still take words like -- and i'm going to quote this -- get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a

transfer. when he makes comments like that, i get really worried that. sounds like joe stalin who said the ballot count is irrelevant, it's who counts the ballots that is critical. that's vladimir putin. that's joe stalin. that's not an american president. and yet it is an american president, this president. >> barbara mcquade, give me, please, your legal perspective. i know you have this remarkable ability to add a legal perspective to anything, including a recipe for mack crony and cheese. this is something far more serious. this is the president saying as the colonel said, if you don't have the ballots you won't have a problem, there won't be a transition. i was shocked when i heard that. i've heard crazy things from donald trump for years. this one was more crazy than normal. >> i agree with you, ali. i think there's reason to be concerned. one of which is the fact that attorney general william barr has been playing along with this game. you'll hear him repeating these talking points about mail-in ballots lacking legitimacy,

about being ripe for fraud. when he's asked to document that with any evidence at all, he has none. he says things like common sense and logic tells me that there's fraud when you have mail-in ballots. in fact, it is actually the opposite. there have been studies done in places like oregon where they've had exclusively mail-in ballots since the year 2000 and the a. fraud there is nil. the likelihood of being instruct by lightning is greater than having voter fraud. it's knots one election that's controlled at a national level, it's 50 state elections so in each state we've got people and processes in place designed for this very purpose. vote by mail is not a new thing. it's happened before in every election. so the safeguards that are there will give us confidence that the vote will be accurate. it's the recognition of that vote that i worry about. >> yeah, last election more than 20% of people voted by mail or absentee.

that number will be up multiple this year. colonel, one of the issues at play here is the degree to which -- we saw it in kenosha, wisconsin, where a young man took a gun, ended up shooting two people because he thought he was in service of donald trump's call for law and order. that's part of the problem here, because donald trump is creating an environment for citizen violence in the wake of the november 3rd election. there may be people who infer that they should take up arms. how do we deal with that? >> i think you've hit on one of the significant concerns that i have, and i think every american should have, that is that donald trump may be a liar, and he's lied about north korea, he's lied about iran, he's lied about venezuela, he's lied about russia, he's lied about germany. he may be a constant liar, but that doesn't mean that some of the things he says aren't stoking his base. and particularly those members of his base who own the guns in this country.

that's of some concern. we've already seen the kind of stereotype of what might happen in portland and other places and kenosha, as you've mentioned. this is a very, very dicey situation that he's creating, and i don't think he's smart enough to realize that he is creating it to the extent that he is. it's very reminiscent of the period from 1850 to 1860 in the united states when the tierney of the minority, slave holders in the south, really ran the united states government. and it ran it with complicity from the north who knew how important slavery was to the economy. we're back in a period where a lot of the things that happened in that very torturous period that led to our civil war seem eerily like what's happening today. and i agree with what was just said about attorney general barr. if i were the speaker of the house nancy pelosi, i'd start impeachment proceedings against him immediately. he's no attorney general. he's not even a good lawyer.

he's a dangerous threat to this country. >> a point barbara's made several times. we talk about the courts, the military, we talk about ways in which we can protect democracy, but the one message that i'm hoping to get clear today is that there is a way for every american to participate in this democracy and shrug off the dismissal of the president of the united states, that is to vote. that is today to figure out how to vote. figure out if you're voting by mail or absentee. what envelope it goes in, triple check and make sure everybody around you knows how to do that. if you're voting at the ballot box, make that plan and be prepared now for it. don't let them take your vote. >> yeah, ali -- i thought your words to open this segment were powerful comparing our country to other democracies that have seen their demise. but the people still have power and representative presley was inspiring about making sure people know how to get out and vote. we still have that power. i think one of the things that

could silence president trump is a land slide victory for joe biden. if it's a close election, that's when it gets dangerous. you know, the election in 2016, he was elected without winning the popular vote and he won in a few swing states by just a sliver. here in michigan he won by 10,000 votes in a time when voter turnout was far less than it was in 12 2012 or 2008. making sure people get out and vote is the way to defeat this president. >> colonel, last word to you. >> i agree 100%. you're going to run into obstacles. i just got my mail-in ballots for virginia. they're very confusing. at one point on the ballot instruction it says you have to have a witness and another point it says you don't. so i said the hell with it, i'm not mailing it in, i'm going down the street to the library, i'm filling out the ballot, which i can do and i'm dropping it in the dropbox. however you vote, vote because what was just said, an overwhelming electoral college

and popular vote victory for biden is the best way to stop this tyrant. >> thank you to both of you. lawrence wilkerson, and brash mcquade, former united states attorney in michigan and an msnbc legal analysts. president trump is set to announce amy coney barrett as the supreme court nominee. if confirmed, the reliably conservative judge would replace one of the most outspoken liberals. what you need to know about amy coney barrett next. ls. what you need to know about amy coney barrett next. no tomatoes.. [hard a] tonight... i'll be eating four cheese tortellini with extra tomatoes. [full emphasis on the soft a] so its come to this? [doorbell chimes] thank you. [doorbell chimes] bravo. careful, hamill. daddy's not here to save you. oh i am my daddy. wait, what? what are you talking about?

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trump's big reveal has been cut short as nbc news has learned he is set to nominate judge amy coney barrett to the supreme court later today. barrett was confirmed as a judge for the seven edge circuit court of appeals in 2017 after facing a tough nomination fight that led the senate to vote along h confirmation. it was then that senator dianne feinstein said to barrett, quote, the doing gma lives loudn you. she was been defined as a textualist much in the same way the late justice scalia was. she cleshlrked for him. she would have a 6-3 on the court potentially lasting for decades to come. don't forget, trump said he would only nominate a justice who would overturn roe versus wade among other decisions. nbc also reporting that trump's decline in evangelical support could be part of his decision to

choose barrett as the nominee. the president looking for someone to excite his base of support just a month before the election. i'm joined now by carol lee. what do we know about amy coney barrett? >> we know she's a favorite. and the president was hearing an earful over the past week from his evangelical supporters, some of who told the white house anybody on the president's list would be okay. but a good number of them were saying the only type of candidate that would be acceptable was a judge like amy coney barrett who has a long record of, in their view, showing that she is, indeed, a conservative. showing her opposition to roe v wade. so the press age to the presidemessage was if you want us to stick with you, you need to pick someone like barrett. the republicans were sending that message to the white house. there were senators saying they would only accept somebody who

had a long paper trail showing that they had an opposition, a demonstrated opposition to roe ve v wade in particular. and the other top tier, lagoa, she had a number of people advocating for her but the argument from the president's evangelical supporters was that she didn't have the kind of paper trail that they think is necessary to show that she would rule in the way that they would want her to rule. they also pointed to and it was interesting because some of her advocates said she was confirmed by eight senate by 80-15. this shows she would easily get through more easily than someone like judge barrett. but the president's religious conservative supporters were saying that's a huge red flag in this environment to have that sort of bipartisan support. it shows that she would not necessarily vote on the court in the way that they would want her to. so, as opposed to someone like judge barrett who is confirmed by a narrower margin than that.

this time around if she is confirmed, it's expected to be even closer of a vote. but so far the president's supporters, particularly among evangelicals are saying bring it on, the bigger the fight the better. we want this. they are fired up and energized about this. the question i hanging over this is whether or not the president is alienating other voters he'll need on november 3rd, particularly suburban women. for now, the key supporters that the president was slipping on polls with, they are fired up about this choice and they really wanted him to move in this direction and according to our reporting, the president has done that. >> carol, thank you for your excellent reporting. carol lee is a correspondent for nbc news joining from us washington. the u.s. has surpassed 7 million coronavirus cases and 205,000 deaths. meanwhile, americans could lose their health care. it affordable care act is gutted by a conservative supreme court.

and on tuesday, donald trump and joe biden face-off on the debate stage for the first time. watch msnbc's coverage of the first 2020 debate with brian williams, rachel maddow, joy reid and nicolle wallace tuesday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. nicolle y at 8:00 p.m. eastern. you defy convention. you turn every ask into an answer. because those who set the standard, reserve the right to raise it. the ram rebel, ram power wagon, and the all-new ram 1500 trx. why more people are switching to ram than ever before. the power has shifted. ♪ now you can trade stocks and etfs for any amount you choose instead of buying by the share. all with no commissions. stocks by the slice from fidelity. get your slice today. it's made for this guy

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why haven't you have said anything about the u.s. having over 200,000 deaths? >> go ahead, anybody else. >> milestone today of 200,000 deaths to the virus. what do you want to say to the american people? >> i think it's a shame. i think if we didn't do it properly and do it right, you'd have 2.5 million deaths. if you take a look at alternatives, you could have 2.5 million deaths or something thereabouts. you could have a number that would be substantially more -- >> that's just not true. that's if you absolutely did nothing, not even talk about it, not even have any masks, not have any social distancing, not

having any shutting down. we're exactly on track for the number of deaths we thought we were going to have with this piecemeal approach that president trump has taken. but there he was again dismissing and blatantly ignoring the facts placed squarely before him regarding covid-19. it's a tactic that he and his administration have often used since the very beginning of this pandemic. >> it's going to disappear. one day it's like a miracle, it will disappear. and from our shores, you know, it could get worse before it gets better. could maybe go away. we'll see what happens. nobody really knows. >> that's not true that nobody really knows, that was seven months ago that he said that. i can't help but play that sound from february now that we know that trump knew exactly how deadly this virus was at the time. the callous disregard for human life is staggering. coronavirus is once again on the rise in the united states with cases surging in 22 states. growing on average of 43,000 new

cases a day marking a 16% increase in the past week. nationwide, the total number of reported covid cases has new surpassed 7 million. death toll is rapidly approaching 204,800 people. meanwhile, trump's manipulation of once trusted federal health institutions like the cdc and the fda for the purposes of his own political messaging has been extremely damaging and has eroded the public's trust in those institutions. olivia troy, a one-time white house task force administrator described this dynamic to my colleague rachel maddow last night. >> i saw a lot of political pressure and dynamics on the doctors on the task force first hand. there were certainly a lot of internal pressure from various senior, very senior political figures in the west wing. i saw the doctors bullied at times. i saw them at times have to

really stand their ground ground a and fight. and sometimes when they did that it meant most of you didn't see them in the press briefing the next day because they had probably said something that was a little bit too forthcoming and very true and it wasn't in line with their message. >> so olivia was describing the stuff we couldn't see. now you can see it on full display in public as well. this week the food and drug administration, the fda, unveiled plans for tougher standards for the upcoming coronavirus vaccine. tougher standards to keep you safe. trump immediately fired back at the agency, one that is run by his administration, i might add, saying that he may not approve these measures and accusing the fda of playing politics. and now with 38 days to go until the election, trump is trying to jam through his supreme court nominee, in spite of the precedent set by republicans in 2016 that justices to the supreme court should not be confirmed in an election year.

in an election year. not an election few weeks. it's a move that would remake the court ahead of a case challenging the affordable care act. obamacare. trump's expected pick, amy coney barrett is on record criticizing the court's decision to uphold the aca in a previous case, but now challenge -- a new challenge to obamacare is come together court in november which means that if barrett is confirmed by the senate, the new 6-3 conservative majority will likely gut obamacare leaving millions of americans without health insurance during one of the deadliest global disease outbreaks in modern history. joining me now is andy, the former head of centers for medicare and medicaid services also known as cms. andy, i can't overstate the importance of this. while justice john roberts wrote the majority opinion last time that did not gut obamacare, putting amy coney barrett on the court probably seals the fate

against it. she said in response to his decision last time, she wrote, chief justice roberts pushed the affordable care act beyond its plausibling to save the statute. he construed the penalty imposed on those without health insurance as a tax which permitted him to sustain the statute as a valid exercise of the taxing power. he had treated the payment as the statute did, as a penalty, he would have had to invalidate the statute as lying beyond congress's commerce power. i only read this because i'm reminding the people of the basis on which obamacare is being challenged in the court. which means we could have no obamacare by the second week of november or the third week of november. >> yeah. it's a very, very specious argument, but i think it's clear as you point out, whoever he's putting in the court, it looks like it's going to be barrett, it's someone who's been doing public job interview for that role. those statements are no

accident. there is one remedy, and the remedy to ensure and really the only way to ensure that the aca continues to exist is a democratic sweep. with joe biden in the white house, a democratic senate and democratic house, the aca gets restored in one science, entence day. without that, we're in a very strange place where we may have millions without insurance and none of us able to get insurance again because insurance companies just won't cover us. >> i've been meaning to talk to you for a couple weeks because the president was at a national constitution center in philadelphia and he said he's got a better plan. he's got it, it's already worked out, it's a replacement for the aca and it will have coverage for everybody with preexisting conditions. do you know what he's talking about? >> well, look, i think the president confuses things that he writes down on a piece of paper and calls it an executive order with an actual plan. an actual plan is something that either proposal to get through congress or is a set of

administrative rules that can be enacted to deliver on what he says. he's none of those things. what he has is a piece of paper now that says you must be covered, it's the policy of the united states you should be covered for preexisting conditions and as you pointed out, he's -- he's saying that just as he's inappropriately using the justice department in the courts to get rid of preexisting condition coverage. so it's a kind of thing we've seen from him before where what he's doing is exactly the opposite of what he's saying publicly. and, of course, you know, what he's saying now about preexisting conditions, it's really equivalent of a tweet on fancy stationary. there's no legal validity to it. you could never use that to get coverage from an insurance company. >> let's remind people, obamacare did three things. it expanded government-provided health insurance and things like medicare and medicaid. it covered a whole lot of people who otherwise weren't covered because they kont afford it.

at its core was this idea because you are sick or have a preexisting condition you cannot be denied insurance or be made to pay exorbitant amounts for it. republicans have taken effort after effort, i can't count how many, there was always a promise of repeal and represent place but there was never ever ever a replace. >> that's right. so, look, before the aca, which is the world that republicans want to go back to, where trump wants to go back to, insurance could cover what it wanted, charge what it wanted, exclude what it wanted. think about this in the context, ali, of the covid-19 yoois cris crisis we're in. let's say there's 20, 30 million cases, young people, maybe then get covid-19, they don't think it's a big deal, they're out partying. five years from now, ten years from now they go to get insurance, what happens? well, covid-19 we now know impacts limbs, it impacts your organ systems, kidney, heart, brain, liver, your gut, it

impacts your circulatory system, your immune system. so if you get asthma or if you get a heart arrhythmia ten, 15 years from now and you had covid-19, you will not be able to be covered in the is the ultimate preexisting condition, and getting rid of this law not only cuts 20 million people off their coverage, as you said, but it basically means that there's so, so many of us, including many who are getting covid-19 right now, getting coverage will just be impossible. >> andy, thank you for reminding us of what the consequences are of this election and of this supreme court nomination. an andy is the host of in the bubble podcast and founder of united states of care. i don't know who needs to hear this, but the only way your vote won't count is if you don't vote. you can vote early, you can vote in person, you can vote by mail depending on your state. coming up next, i'll explain your best options for getting your ballot in and counted by

november 1st. it starts with planning your vote. head to this important website, nbc news.com/plan your vote. put in your zip code or state. it will tell you what do. we'll be right back. state. it will tell you what do. we'll be right back. book's 2020 best resale value brand, 2020 lowest 5-year cost to own brand, and most trusted brand for 6 consecutive years. no wonder kelley blue book also picked subaru as their 2020 best overall brand. a trusted brand and a proven value. it's easy to love a subaru. get 0% apr financing for 63 months on select subaru models, now through september 30th. i'm a delivery operations manager in san diego, california. we were one of the first stations to pilot a fleet of electric vehicles. we're striving to deliver a package with zero emissions into the air. i feel really proud of the impact that has on the environment. we have two daughters and i want to do everything

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we have not seen historically any kind of coordinated national voter fraud effort in a major election, whether it's by mail or otherwise. >> unlike the rest of trump's cronies in his administration, fbi director chris ray admits that rampant voter fraud in this country say farce. he put to rest conspiracy theories. many republicans have fallen in line with trump's assault or voting, which is dangerous. michelle goldberg writes trump is an aspiring fascist who would burn democracy to the ground to sell his diseased ego. but there is a world after

trump, end quote. i'm not going to give oxygen to trump's lies about voting, especially since he appears already to be represent fusing these election results 38 days too early. but i want to make one thing clear. while some elected republicans are doing everything they can to suppress votes, i need you to remember and use it to motivate you to get to the polls. your vote is something that matters in this country. it's your constitutional duty as an american citizen. don't let trump's fake news trick you into thinking that your vote doesn't matter, because it does. and it will. whether you want to vote by mail or in person, it will count. nothing has changed in the voting process except how you may submit your ballot. to your commitment to democracy and to the vote shouldn't have changed either. and it's easy, especially if you plan for it. you can vote early or in person or in some cases use a dropbox for your ballot. every state does have different rules. it may take a minute to read. different methods, different

deadlines, but get started. check to see if you're registered in your state. if you're not, that's step one. make sure you know where your polling location is because some states like georgia and texas have gotten rid of polling locations making it harder for some communities vote. if you're plan iening on a maim ballot, follow the instructions carefully. make sure your name is in the right place and your signature is right. make sure it's going to get there on time. this is the time to be proactive and to confirm your registration. check out our nbc news guide online. plan your vote. nbc news.com plan your vote. some of you may be wondering what may happen. it president loses the election but refuses to accept the results. if that happens, it's to up other people to figure out. but you did your duty. let the constitution do its. we take voting for granted in this country, but nothing should ever prevent you from exercising right to cast your ballot and have it count.

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[ engine rumbling ] [ beeping ] [ engine revs ] uh, you know there's a 30-minute limit, right? tell that to the rain. [ beeping ] for those who were born to ride, there's progressive. despite what seemed to be a step in the right direction after the city of louisville's $12 million settlement with the family of breonna taylor this week, we, as a nation, took multiple steps backward. a kentucky grand jury chose to indite one, just one of the police officers involved in taylor's shooting death. and he's not being charged for anything to do with taylor's

death. he is charged with want to endanger meant for the bullets that hit a neighbor's apartment. none of the officers were directly charged in breonna taylor's death. it brings into sharp focus not just the protection the police officers receive, but the injustice embedded in our legal and policing systems. even after a racial justice movement that has swept the nation, very little has changed on a policy level in the u.s. even in cities that appeared open to reform. with me now, captain sonya pruitt from the police department, she's dedicated to police action and reform and injustice. and the cofounder of the african american policy forum and the #say her name campaign. thank you both for being with us. let me start with you, kimberly. there looked to be something hopeful in the settlement with breonna taylor's family because

it involved some police reform, some things that the police were supposed to do differently. but the justice system which so many of the protesters with whom i have spoken, they complain about, that the policing and the justice system is unfair. african americans do not get treated the same way as white people in this country. that's not changing at least for now. >> you're right. that's not changing at all. and i will say even beyond that, the reality that this represents, namely there was a judgment that no moral or legal wrong had been done by taking the life of breonna taylor, a completely innocent woman in her own home is, in many ways, i think the emmett till moment for black women. remember when emit till wmett t killed, people were able to see how racism was so unrelenting

that white men could take the life of a 14-year-old boy. and the criminal justice system said it was okay. well, this is what this means for a black won. home minding her own business and a life is taken and the criminal justice system says no injury has happened. no legally significant taking of life has happened. this is going to shape how black women receive the value, the devaluing of our lives in the american criminal justice system and basically it's a signal to the world that our lives really don't matter. at least don't matter enough to overtake and hold back police for basically what? trying to get some narcotics? it was really worth taking her life to get some nanarcotics? we need to sit with that.

>> unlike watching the video of george floyd get killed where it was sort of obvious to everyone, it was -- sorry, just listening to my control room. oh, we've lost the feed to sonya. we'll try and get her back. i'll ask you the question. unlike george floyd where it was obvious to everyone who saw that those police had deliberate intent, they knew they were snuffing a man's life out at the moment, but the issue is at no point did the police force come forward and say there were a few things that went wrong. there's some confusion about whether there was knocking or no knocking which wouldn't be confusing if everybody had their body cameras on in the first place. there's a whole bunch of things that happened. the police could have come out and said a lot went wrong here, we're going to change that, an innocent woman didn't need to die. we didn't mean harm but we didn't have processes in place to protect her. i'm not sure another breonna

taylor doesn't die on another night because the things that killed her are still there. >> well, and breonna taylor herself is another jones, she's another catherine jonston. the reality is that this war on drugs, this war on crime has turned many, many black women and children into collateral damage and when the criminal justice system does not admit that a wrong has been done, when the officers say that they were morally and ethically in the right to take an innocent person's life, that means that the reforms that need to take place will unlikely take place, but more importantly, the idea that a life has been lost that should not have been lost, the idea -- pursuing this particular form of criminal enforcement was too costly isn't even something that people are willing to say.

let's just remember, one of the main things of say her name is to fight the invisibility of black women. breonna taylor's name isn't even mentioned in the indictment. >> yeah. >> and when she was killed, the police report said that there were no injuries. what more kpampexample of the f that black women don't matter can you think of? >> all of the things we have covered in the last month none of them justified the end result. some of them justified nothing. in fact in the case of breonna taylor nothing was happening that should have resulted in her being killed let alone arrested. how can we get to the point where we can get police forces to say this, where we can say mistakes were made that resulted in someone's death, they were not intentional, that's not what policing and justice is supposed to look like. why can't we get there? because that's what feels like could have happened in

louisville. >> because ali we've been saying over and over again that the system of policing is based on something that started 400 plus years ago. it was never meant to hold black people in honor and here we are in 2020 and we are still in the same place. but what i want to tell your audience is do not be fooled. when you hear people say well, especially the attorney general, say that there was really no justifiable reason that we could charge these police officers, it was self-defense. i have to tell you there were several areas in which if the information had been investigated thoroughly because i'm not sure that it was, that you could have found a way to hold the police accountable. you had a shoddy investigation. you had a shoddy search warrant. you didn't even have a process by which police officers could be held accountable in their search warrants. they just went straight to a judge who signed off on it and it seemed like a rubber stamp and then you send in a crew of

officers who are in plain clothes, not a swat team who did not do their due diligence in surveilling the property, knowing who was there, i mean and then you do a knock and announce, you claim for a no knock warrant. there were many, many mistakes made in the process leading up to breonna taylor's death. so we want people to be educated about that. this is wrong, i am offended, i am insult suicide. the people that i work with in justice reform and in police reform are also insulted and we're going to keep pushing forward. but here's the bottom line. we may just have to just scrap police departments and start all over again. i am now on the side of just abolishing it. it doesn't mean you're going to get rid of all the officers but you need to have officers in the right frame of mind doing the work. >> a new way to think about it but we're going to need new ways to think about it because the old ways keep coming up short.

thanks to both of you. that does it for me. thank you for watching. join me tomorrow as we resume velshi across america 2020. tomorrow we'll be at pueblo, colorado. a.m. joy up next. you're watching msnbc. you're watching msnbc. tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean?

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do this job but what i do know that him and countless others will go to bed sleeping with breonna's face still hearing her say her name. i hope you wagner know the pain of hearing your child murdered days in a row. >> welcome to a.m. joy. i'm tiffany cross and it is so great to be back with you under these sad circumstances. we have a lot to get to including donald trump's expected pick of amy coney barrett to replace ruth bader ginsburg on the supreme court and we'll get to that later in