hello. i'm alise sha mendes. this is "american voices." major breaking news this hour. a bombshell report from the work times. details how trump paid no taxes at all in 10 of the past 15 years because he reported losing more money than he made. according to the report, trump paid about $400 million less in combined federal income taxes than a very wealthy person who paid the average for that group each year. that's despite the fact that between 2004 and 2018, trump made nearly $430 million from

selling his image alone. the "times" also notes president trump wrote off more than $70,000 to style his hair during "the apprentice," another $100,000 for a hairstylist for his ex-wife. the president denied the report a short time ago. >> totally fake news. made up, fake. we went through the same stories, you could have asked me the same questions four years ago, had to litigate this, talk about it. totally fake news. no. actually, i paid tax. and you'll see that as soon as my tax returns -- it's under order. they've been under order for a long time. the irs does not treat me well. >> democrats are already responding, like senate minority leader chuck schumer, who tweeted, raise your hand if you paid more in federal income tax than president trump. kelly o'donnell is at the white house. what are you hearing from the white house about this new reporting? >> reporter: it is not often that we have a major breaking

story just at the time we're scheduled to have an encounter in the briefing room with the president and that happened today. we were able to ask him about this report, and based on the lengthy "new york times" report, and the trump organization had been aware of the reporting, they responded in the report. the president was certainly prepared to are this. he denies that the facts are accurate. but here's the problem, he does not provide us with any counter weight. i jumped in a couple of times, he rebuked me for that, that comes with the territory. trying to ask the president, if not $750 like the reporting suggests, then what amount in federal tax did you pay? it would not stop the president from providing us that figure or a generalized number or some glimpse of his tax returns even though he has for so long said they're under audit and therefore he's not releasing them. that's a decision, not a requirement. he could release them even while under audit. this has been a protracted series of events. it is important in part because the president's identity as a

businessman, a billionaire, a wealthy person, a dealmaker, all of those things are a part of his brand and his political identity. and at a time when he is now in charge of the u.s. government, an issue like not paying federal tax can certainly be very political. at the same time, the president has in the past talked about the fact that when you make a lot of money, as he claimed he did, you try to reduce your tax burden as much as possible within the law. his lawyers say that through things like social security taxes and all the different complex pieces of the tax puzzle, that the president has paid a lot of taxes. today he told us he's paid social security taxes, state taxes, so forth. what he is not giving us is a snapshot or any kind of a top line on what he paid in federal taxes. this is a nagging issue that has followed him throughout his candidacy and during his time in office. and now right before the election because "the new york

times" has gained access to these documents, which nbc news does not have access to and cannot independently confirm at this point. so we're going off of their reporting. but we have the opportunity, alicia, to ask the president about this today. he provided some answers and again pointed to his financial disclosure, which federal officials are required to provide. and he does provide that every year. the president always says that has more detail. what the reporting also showed is that while that filing, which is certainly under penalty of perjury and prepared for his accountants and so forth, it does give a large picture of his wealth and assets. what it doesn't do is show the losses. that's what's in a tax return. that's what the reporting indicates is that the president sustained a lot of financial pressures and a lot of losses. we know from his time as sort of the businessman, pop culture figure, where he had public bankruptcies for some of the legal entities -- not personal bankruptcies, business bankruptcies. we know he has had highs and

lows in his business life. now that he's president, it's taking on a different sort of view. vice president joe biden has for many years made his tax returns public. as someone who was a long-time public official senator for decades and so forth. will this issue prompt him to release his taxes? i don't think anyone expectations that, certainly not before the election. in a second term, if he were to win? would that happen? hard to imagine if he becomes private citizen donald trump again work, he ever release them? as our viewers and readers dig into this new reporting, it certainly creates some ways to understand the president's finances more, and perhaps it gives us more indication of why he has been so reluctant to provide more financial details. we pressed the president, he gave us answers that frankly we've heard him give before, disputing these facts. this will certainly not be a story that goes away easily. at the same time, the president wanted to talk about amy coney

barrett, wanted to talk about her nomination to the court and also he gave also preview of the debate which will happen tuesday night against joe biden in cleveland. the first of their matchups. he says he's been preparing and he cited some of the question back and forth he does with reporters like me and my colleagues as part of his preparation as he gets ready for that face-off. obviously a question like this could become part of the debate. we'll see if the moderator, chris wallace of fox news, will use any of this as a guide for tuesday night. >> when you talked about this question of taxes paid and tax burden, there is, of course, questions of fairness. there's a question of transparency. there is the mount that you made about how it reflects on this brand that he has often relied on. there are other elements of this reporting as well, dealing specifically with money from foreign sources. and also the incredible financial pressure that the president is soon to be under. were any questions asked about either of those two issues? >> not in the time that we were

in the briefing room today. because frankly, the president shut down the questioning at a certain point. he took a number of questions, but this was not an exhaust the questioners kind of event. part of what has been so unusual about the trump presidency all along is the president will often say he takes no personal salary. we see evidence that he gives his personal salary to the treasury, designating a different agency or department each quarter. but he never divested himself of ownership in his businesses. and so just down the street, the president often goes to his trump hotel in washington, d.c. or other trump branded properties. we often make a note of the fact that he goes to properties that are for-profit. and clearly, because he is the president, there are foreign governments, different entities that want to be in favor with the president who will use his properties for their own events and spend lots of money at those properties. one can only assume to some extent, that is to gain some

kind of advantage with the president. the president says he has turned over the running of his businesses to his two sons, but unlike a lot of other presidents -- again, he's not like other presidents we've had -- his kind of business is not in a trust. it is not separated from his ability to influence the revenue coming into his own properties. "the washington post" has done a lot of reporting on charges that have been billed to the sigh credit service for rooms and equipment and things. ways in which the president has gained revenue into his businesses by being president. that has always been a big question mark. and certainly his daughter, ivanka, son-in-law, jared kushner, who also serve as federal employees, do not take a salary. but their tax returns or their financial disclosures show that they have made tens of millions of dollars through their wealth over the last few years of their time in office as well, and we don't have a lot of transparency on all of that. the president came in portraying himself as fabulously wealthy,

and he has not distanced himself from the things that made him wealthy, and that certainly raises lots of questions about ethics, decision-making, and if the president has used his time in government service, his time on the world stage, to in some ways feather the family business. that's something that his critics certainly say he has done door too often. >> nbc's kelly o'donnell from the white house. chief white house correspondent halley jackson on the phone, what most stands out about this reporting? >> you know, there's a number of things. kelly did such a comprehensive job going through the key piece s pieces. to me three big headlines. i know that you've been all over this as well. it's the headline, the president not paying any income taxes for a number of the last 15 years, only paying $750 in the first two years when elected in 2016, the first year as president. you're already seeing democrats jump on that with senate

minority leader chuck schumer tweeting, raise your hand in you paid more taxes than president trump did. that is going to be a line you're going to hear a lot in the coming days from opponents of the president. the losses kelly was talking about at the president's properties, for example the doral golf course where the president spends a lot of time, i think kelly was down there this week when the president was visiting there, it painted the picture of somebody who was struggling financially and the huge number of loans, $300 million in loans, coming due in the next four years. this "new york times" report does reveal a lot of things that people have been questioning for a long time. now we start to have some answers. i think the other really important piece of this, on the top line here, are the conflicts that are revealed, that "the new york times" lays out -- potential conflicts, we should say -- of the president and the power of his presidency being used to offset some of those losses. for example that roofing company that spent a lot of money at one of the president's properties,

if they were lobbying for deregulation as well. those are the kinds of things ethics watchdogs will be all over, as many watchdogs have been concerned for years about the president never truly divesting himself of his businesses and what that means. the president, as my colleagues know, as kelly at the white house knows, was very defiant, casting this as fake news, despite the trump organization lawyer being quoted on the record in this piece. but i do think it's worth noting -- listen, i've been in front of the president a lot. i've asked him repeatedly, from right after he was elected president, during the transition, all the way up until here, why he won't release his tax returns. this comes up all the time. it comes up every year around tax day when the rest of america is filing their taxes. the president consistently says, because nobody cares except for you. he points his finger. only reporters care about the tax return. that is just not true. there's an online poll from july, this is consistent with the polling over the last four years, showing that 2 in 3

americans, 2 of every 3 potential voters in this country, believe president trump should release his tax returns, just show them, as is custom for every president in modern whoerthis president feels like he doesn't have to, he doesn't want to, and there is no reason why he couldn't do that. he cites often this audit he is under. that is not something that would legally restrict him from releasing tax returns. and so that i think gives important context as you look at all of this. i may knowledge gin there will be a lot more fallout in the 24 hours to come. i'm curious personally as to what the biden campaign is doing strategy-wise now to get ready for this, as it is likely to come up, if not in the debate, in the hours between now and the debate, the chance to ask the president more questions about this. >> while i have you, today you had the ways and means committee chairman, congressman neil, issuing the following statement regarding "the new york times"

report. i'm going to read part of it. "now donald trump is the boss of the agency he considers an adversary, it is essential that the irs' presidential audit program remain free of interference. today's report underscores the importance of the ways and means committee's ongoing lawsuit to access mr. trump's tax returns and ensure the presidential audit program is functioning effectively without proper -- improper influence." how does this affect the president's relationship with democrats on the hill who are still pursuing this lawsuit? does it in any way complicate or clarify this lawsuit? >> i'm sure if you ask democrats they would say, of course it clarifies things for them. the robe why they would say they want to continue the investigation into president trump's finances. this has been something that house democrats, for example in particular, have been working on for years. and there has been a big question of what the president's tax returns show. so i do think that this continues to complicate the relationship the president has.

to be honest, i'm not sure fit adds a new complication, because that relationship was pretty complicated enough, right? it is pretty simple. democrats don't like the president, the president doesn't like house democrats, generally speaking, when it comes to these issues of finances. so this is i would say another layer on top of that. i do think that -- looking at chairman neal's statement you read a piece of, i do think you will see echoes of that from other democrats in the days to come. you're starting to see some of that from some of these other key lawmakers here. but as far as the hill piece, this is going to add fuel to the fire that house democrats have been looking at. the question always for me also is, what do republicans say of this? oftentimes you've seen when the president has come under fire republicans saying things like, i haven't seen this, i defer to the president, some of them taking on the messaging of the president himself. and i do wonder if that is going to be something that we hear

from, for example, senate republicans too, if, for example, they will try to change the subject to the other big news of the weekend, the president's supreme court nomination of amy barrett and the coming hearings and the fight over her, though not much of a fight given the. s have the votes. >> even though you said it was in some ways not complicated, part of the challenge of this happening on such a tight timeline, that there is no room for error, as you well know. the report notes that trump paid $750 in taxes in the u.s. but he paid $16,000 in taxes to panama. what does that tell you? >> and other countries as well. far more than he paid in the u.s. i expect democrats will seize on this, where the president has

decried other businesses for not paying their fair share at home, yet this shows his company may have been doing just that. the hypocrisy line may be something else that you hear from democrats moving forward based on figures, panama and others, the president paying tens of thousands more to those countries than to the u.s. >> halley jackson, thank you so much. joining me to discuss, zore rina maxwell, msnbc political analyst, the author of "the end of white politics." amadi, prosecuted a number of federal tax cases. christina greer, associate professor of political science at fordham university. the author of "the making of donald trump." david, i know that i am going to lose you in a few minutes so i want to start with you. big picture, for someone who is just tuning in, what are the top lines on this reporting? what most stands out to you? >> donald trump has paid little or no income taxes in this

century. in two years he paid a plug-in amount, $750, that's of no consequence, while paying vastly larger sums in taxes to foreign governments, panama, the philippines, and elsewhere. he has taken dubious deductions on behalf of his son. he may have engaged in gift tax fraud. and he has lost unbelievable sums of money in 2008 and 2009 alone, tax deductions totaling $1.4 billion that wiped out his tax obligation at that time. what this illustrates is why donald trump doesn't want you to see his tax returns, other than the one that i published at d. report three years ago, and that he has good reason to try and argue, falsely that he can't release his returns because he's under audit. once you've signed your return, nothing changes by releasing it. there is no legitimate reason for donald trump to withhold his tax returns.

this is entirely something he's trying to do to protect his image. >> we have spoken with many journalists. about have lots of questions. we've spoken with political analysts. zore lena is a recovering attorney. i ask you, as a former federal prosecutor wearing that hat, what does this reporting tell you, and what questions does it leave you with? >> it leaves me with a lot of questions. i think a moment ago there was a discussion of potential gift tax fraud. if you're looking at what might be criminal versus what may be a civil violation -- we know, of course, there's a very large potential civil violation here, given there's an audit and a very, very large claimed reduction in refund. the potential to, for example -- he's being ivanka trump very large sums of money. the focus for a criminal charge is, what is false in these tax returns, and what did donald trump know about those false

statements? in other words, donald trump's going to try to say, i was just signing things put in front of me. but for a criminal charge, you have to prove that he knew that that statement was false and that he made that knowing that he was going to evade tax in some way, knowing it was unlawful in some way. that's the burden of proof. it's going to be very interesting in the coming weeks, as there's a lot of scrutiny over these i think impossible to defend tax returns, if "the new york times" reporting is correct, for example, accountants and other advisers in his corporation -- i would like to hear from them. did they advise him to make these deductions? what did they have to say about these, for example, gifts to his daughter, some of the other very questionable amounts here any think those are going to be the amounts that prosecutors would want to have. >> this goes to the point you were making about the verbiage around accountants? >> yes. two things we know from the past that are important. donald had two income tax fraud

trials over his 1984 tax return. he lost both those trials. he had fabricated hundreds of thousands of dollars of deductions that did not exist. he altered the tax return itself, according to his own witness, to create and fabricate these. so we have good reason to be suspicious of donald. secondly, from an audit the city of new york did over one of his deals, donald has a history of lying and denying, say i have no records, a water pipe broke and destroyed the records, when he had the records. prosecutors, it's clear in the manhattan case, the state-level case, are looking at the business records at the accounting firm and the transactions. they've asked specifically for communications between donald trump and the accountants and for draft tax returns. and i suspect we'll find out that they did things on donald's

orders rather than following proper legal advice. because that's how donald's operated throughout the 32 years that i've been writing about him. >> i want to read you a tweet from senator elizabeth warren. she writes, donald trump paid just $750 in income taxes in 2016 and 2017. he knows better than anyone that there's one set of rules for the wealthy and giant corporations, and another for hard-working americans, and instead of using his power to fix it, he's taken advantage of it at every turn. you know there has been some conversation this evening about how best to approach this reporting. what do you think is the right way for former vice president joe biden, 48 hours away from his first debate? how does he frame what is being shown to us in this "new york times" reporting? >> i think there's really two threads. i think there's a journalistic thread where experts like david and the reporters at "the new york times" and elsewhere are going to look at all of the documentation, and they're going

to dig into this story, and they're going to give us all the information. but i think in terms of the presidential campaign, the other thread that is joe biden needs to make this matter for the everyday american. whether it's trying to demonstrate that donald trump is paying barely anything, while you are paying your taxes and following the rules that you're supposed to as an ordinary person who's a working person, who doesn't have all of the benefits of having the powerful lawyers and lobbyists. i think if joe biden can make it matter for the american people, if he can make it matter for the person on main street, then i think that can be a compelling message. but again, going back to something i said earlier the last hour, i think fundamentally the strongest argument is that the financial conflicts are a national security issue for donald trump. and if he is compromised in any way in his finances, that means that we can't trust that he's making the best decisions for the american people, and that is

a dangerous thing for everyone, especially considering that we're in the middle of a global pandemic. >> the panel is staying with me. i want to bring in congressman joaquin castro of texas. thanks so much for joining us. i am sure you've gotten a chance at this point to read "the new york times" reporting. what most stands out to you? >> i think it reveals what many people have suspected, which is the larger point, that donald trump is a fraud. that he's not what he claims to be. he claims to be a successful deal-making businessman who built himself up from the ground up, and his tax records reveal that he's actually the opposite. that he's basically a deadbeat who isn't paying much in taxes. he rails against people like dreamers and immigrants and attacks them. dreamers pay about $8.7 billion a year in taxes. and donald trump paid $750.

you could go through a long list of hard-working, humble people in this country who pay their taxes, right? garbage collectors, all these essential workers we've been talking about during this pandemic. and yet you've got the most powerful person in the country who's employing a mountain of lawyers and accountants, who is giving gifts and paying his daughter hundreds of thousands of dollars as a consultant, doing everything that he can to avoid what people making $40,000 a year, some of them less than that, are dutifully doing, paying their taxes. to me, it affirms that donald trump is a fraud. >> congressman, there's this question of fairness, as you say. there's also this question of the president receiving money from foreign sources. i wonder what you make of that reporting, especially given that it was more than originally anticipated. >> i think zorlina's right. i sat on the intelligence

committee. we went from you the russia investigation. we went through the first part of impeachment which involved actions in ukraine. what it does is, it sets up a situation where the president of the united states, with all that immense power, is somebody who can be bought. and bought not only by people who are fellow citizens of ours, but people from around the world. whether it's russia, saudi arabia, or any number of countries. and that's why the lawsuits over the emoluments clause, over donald trump's taxes, take on even more urgency now. because we now have seen that his tax situation, so i think these things are going to get more intense. absolutely, you know, as some folks have noted on social media, and it's true, if you were somebody else and you tried to get a security clearance with these kinds of debts, you wouldn't get one. they wouldn't allow you to see the classified information that donald trump is seeing on a daily basis. and that's a very dangerous

situation for this country to be in, to have the president of the united states be somebody who can be bought and sold, and influenced because he needs the money. >> dr. greer, can you jump in on that point? how this question, all the reporting that we're seeing, how it becomes not just a question of fairness, but a question of national security? >> oh, i couldn't agree more. we have to think about the behavior of the president over the past few years. we ask ourselves why is it that he consistently stands up for our adversaries and will never support sometimes his own american people? questioning whether or not they should even be real citizens? i'm thinking about our journalistic colleague, mr. khashoggi, when he was murdered. gru donald trump has proven that it's about him, it's about his personal finances. i've been ringing the alarm with zorlina for many years. why are ivanka and jared kushner getting millions upon millions

of dollars? they're representing the united states in formal capacities, which is highly appropriate, and possibly illegal. sadly, though, i think so many people in our international community have seen that the emperor has no clothes. and not just donald trump, but now they're seeing that the united states is not the superpower that she once purported to be. especially how we've handled the coronavirus, with over 200,000 deaths. no other country has that sort of percentage the way we are. the fact that the president is quite callous when thinking about how that's affected families and communities. also, i really do worry about how the democrats are going to articulate this to voters. we have to take this situation, because we know that the president hikes to create chaos. he likes to create news stories multiple times a day. this is not something that can go away. we have been very concerned that his financial dealings are inextricably linked to many of our adversaries. this can't be something where we get distracted. this can't be something where

chuck schumer tweets on sunday and wraps it up. he needs to be quite aggressive with his republican colleagues, especially those that are in states that are turning purple. he needs to articulate a vision to those voters and help them understand is the extreme threat this poses to american democracy, but also how it's just not fair, as congressman stated, that some of us are buying into this nation, we are doing our most patriotic duty to support this nation financially, and our own president, the helpful executive branch, is not doing so. >> all right. we have to take a very quick break. when we return, we'll continue with the latest on this breaking news, "the new york times" obtained new documents showing donald trump avoided paying taxes for years. wow! jim, couu pop the hood for us? there she is. turbocharged, right? yes it is. jim, could you, uh, kick the tires? oh yes. can you change the color inside the car? oh sure. how about blue? that's more cyan, but. jump in the back seat, jim. act like my kids.

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major breaking news, a long and detailed report from "the new york times" that shows that president trump paid a ludicrously small amount of taxes in the past 20 years, having paid no taxes at all in 10 of the past 15 years. it also notes that he's lost a whole lot more money than he made. in fact, his debt and other loans total $421 million. with most of it coming due within four years. the "times" notes if he wins re-election, his lenders could be placed in the unprecedented position of weighing whether to foreclose on a sitting president. our cameras were in the briefing room when the president was

asked about the report just a short time ago. here's what he said. >> fake news. totally fake news. made up, fake. we went through the same stories. you could have asked me the same questions four years ago, i had to litigate this, talk about it. totally fake news, no. actually, i paid tax. and you'll see that as soon as my tax returns are -- it's under order. they've been under order for a long time. the irs does not treat me well. >> joining me, stephanie ruhle, nbc senior business correspondent. really big picture, for someone just coming to this reporting, what most stood out to you? >> what most stands out is immediately the president doesn't want to talk about this. he's saying let's dismiss this, this thing's been litigated, he doesn't want this to be focused on. but it needs to be. the fact that the president had write-downs this big, losing this much money, and wasn't paying taxes for years and

years, on the face, people will mock him and say, oh, he's not as rich as he said he was. and he'll be embarrassed by it. but that's not the story. the story is, did he manipulate his own books in such a way that it was illegally? if he did, that's a major problem. we know he didn't have any lenders from u.s. banks. we know he only had deutsche bank. given the complexity and how much money he loss, to your point, could those lenders be looking to foreclose on some of those properties? we're going to need to know who those lenders are. because the reason this matters to the american people is not to mock the president for not being that wealthy, who cares? it's, does he have conflicts of interest that put our national security at risk? does he put his private business interests ahead of the american people? if he does and these issues are, here's a really important word, illegal, then he is in a whole lot of trouble. but if this is, oh my goodness, he doesn't really have that much money, he's a laughingstock, then this thing won't stick. but it should.

because it stinks to the high heavens. >> we had david fairenhold earlier on from "the new york times" and he said this answered a number of riddles reporters have been working on since the beginning of this presidency. it also, though, begets more questions. and the "new york times" says there's much more reporting on the way. for you as a journalist that has covered these stories, what are the questions that you have remaining? where do you want to see this story go from here? >> great. we need to keep asking more questions. because remember, kellyanne conway, two years into the presidency, when she was asked about the president's taxes, said, oh, he doesn't have to supply them, that issue has already been litigated. the american people don't care. they elected him. she was wrong then, they are wrong now. we want to have an understanding, who are his lenders? how do you have these complicated businesses? doral, who gave him the money for it?

who is the money behind mar-a-lago in palm beach? his property in palm beach that he bought and sold a couple of years later for twice as much money to a russian? we want to understand where exactly those business ties are from. in this reporting you see that miss universe moscow, the president got paid over $2 million. the arrangers of miss universe moscow have very close ties to vladimir putin. vladimir putin, who we know from chris wray, the fbi director, who said it twice in the last week, there is currently russian interference happening in the upcoming election. meant to sow chaos and hurt joe biden. when president trump has been asked about that, he completely dismisses it. so we need to take this reporting and take it a step further and say, exactly who do you owe money to, mr. president? because if it's a foreign government, if it's a foreign entity, it's a problem for the american people. not to make fun of you that you're not some business guru. you're not putting the safety and the security of the american people first. >> i want you to help me

understand something that might seem like minutiae, but seems important to me, which is that according to the irs, for business expenses to be deducted, they must be, quote, ordinary and necessary. how has trump, based on this reporting, stretched that definition? >> are you kidding me? the fact that he has his fame listed as an asset. that's ridiculous. he has got expenses all over this place and write-down that is have nothing to do with normal and necessary business. so when you actually -- i mean, the fact that he lists proceeds from fame, that is not something any ordinary american can do. and i'm not saying that people should take issue with the fact that the president is a wealthy man, but the president shouldn't engage in practices and misrepresent he's finances to the irs and cheat the government in ways that everyday americans absolutely don't ever have the opportunity to. >> all right. stephanie ruhle, thank you so much for joining us. i want to bring in katy tur,

msnbc anchor, she is on the phone with us. katy, my friend, you covered the 2016 trump campaign. you're very familiar with the people surrounding the president. what more can you tell us about this new report? >> i want to add to one thing stephanie was saying. all the points she was making were spot on. but it's not just the foreign entities that should have people concerned. it's, if donald trump is re-elected president, who is he beholden to that is currently paying him through his golf resorts, through mar-a-lago, through the trump hotel in d.c., and what sort of favoritism might they be getting from the president in his role as president when it comes to something like deregulation as an example in the "new york times" article. going back to the political aspects of this, i had a long conversation a moment ago with michael cohn about the mood inside the trump organization, why the president felt like he

could continue to get away with something like this. cohen pointed me -- he's out with a new book. he pointed me to page 94 of his new book "disloyal" where he describes donald trump getting a $10 million refund from the irs. and he says donald trump said to him, can you believe how f'ing stupid the irs is? who would give me a refund of $10 f'ing million dollars? they are so stupid. cohen says this because he is claiming that everything that he has been saying about the president is proving to be true. that he's a racist, a con man, and a cheat. and this is the biggest example of that with the tax returns and the irs. i asked him why the president was so adamant in 2016 and 2015 about this not getting released. was it pure ego? or was it something more? did he not just want the american public to know that he didn't actually make as much money as he did? was he worried about the political ramifications of what

it would mean to show the american public that he almost pays nothing in taxes, nothing in federal taxes, almost nothing beyond that? michael cohen said it wasn't necessarily that. remember, i spoke to trump voters left and right in 2015 and 2016. they didn't care about any of this, necessarily. they believed he was smarter. this is what i kept hearing. they believed he was smarter for being able to circumvent the irs. cohen says what trump was really worried about, in his estimation, was that if these taxes were released, these returns were released, professional accountants, think tanks, would go through all of these returns and point out all of the flaws that stephanie, for example, was laying out a moment ago. that they would do the same thing that "the new york times" has done. that he was making illegitimate deductions, illegitimately moving money around. he said, trump would have known

he would get hit with tax repayments, penalties, interest, and that he frankly did not have the money to pay it. he said the president -- and i will say this as well. in the past, the president has said he doesn't want to release his returns, partly because they're under audit, and lo and behold they were under audit, but also he said people would misread them. he has said that in the past. i asked cohen why he thought he could keep getting away with this with the irs. he knew public scrutiny would get him into trouble and reveal flaws, why didn't he think the irs would ultimately catch up with him, audit him, ask for this sort of money back? and he said he believed that continue to fight the irs under wraps, indefinitely. like there was no end in sight for when he would stop having to fight the irs. he could continue to kick the ball down the line. then one final question i had

was, if everybody in the trump organization knew that donald trump was not making as much money as he claimed to be, what would the feeling inside the organization, working for donald trump as he was making these outrageous claims? he said the reality is, nobody in the trump organization -- this is according to michael cohen -- had any view of these tax returns, ever saw them, except for, he believed, donald trump, alan weisselberg, who's the trump cfo, don jr., ivanka trump, and eric. >> katy tur, i want you to stay with me. i want to bring in tony schwartz, the cothur of "trump: art of the deal." the new book is "dealing with the devil: my mother, trump, and me." tony, does any of what katy was reporting surprise you? >> no. not a bit. in fact, what i believe will happen is that we'll see all of the things that michael cohen said and katy just talked about

borne out in ways that go beyond what even this first tranche of material suggests. because i have absolutely no doubt that trump has, just as he does everywhere else in his life, has cheated and lied and tried to ensure that he maximizes his income no matter whether that's legal or not. far beyond what anybody has seen so far. >> i am struck by something that katy said from her reporting with michael cohen, this idea that trump thought he could continue to the tangle with the irs indefinitely. i mean, i think to a lot of people, that sounds absurd, even more absurd coming from the president of the united states. what do you make of that claim? >> that's the way he's been all his life, kicked the ball down

the road on a plethora of crimes that he's committed. he's been able to, you know, relatively speaking, be teflon-like. and you really see the circle closing at this point. i mean, it's -- each day, each week, as we get closer to the election, there's one more terrible revelation about what trump has done. and you know, i do believe -- i'm someone who does believe in karma. it just doesn't always happen instantly. and i do think it's going to catch up with trump. and i do think it's going to be a bloodletting for the country, meaning it's going to be ultimately a good thing, just as it was a good thing when richard nixon resigned in 1974. it's going to be a good thing because this country so desperately needs to heal from what it's been subjected to under trump.

>> katy, your final thoughts before i let you go? >> you know, alicia, it is potentially a political issue. there are voters out there who are potentially struggling to make a decision about whether to vote for trump, or maybe not to vote at all, to stay home. and the idea that the president of the united states pays less money than almost every other american, probably, has got to be difficult for some voters. i mean, it could potentially be a straw for enough voters to put him in some hot water in some key areas. remember, he only won by a very small margin. i keep saying this, in 2016, in some key areas. if he loses support from a handful of people in these areas, he is in trouble. alternatively, if he motivates more voters to vote against him, he is in a lot of trouble.

he gets those 4.4 million democrats to vote against him, the ones that didn't show up in 2016 for obama, this is a very difficult election for him to win. and a moment ago i was talking about how, lo and behold, the president actually was under an audit. she also add that being under an audit does not mean that you cannot release your taxes. his own irs commissioner has said so. it has been the excuse he has used to try to keep them under wraps for all these years. >> all right, katy tur, thank you for joining us. thank you for that reporting. i want to go to zorlina maxwell, msnbc political analyst. i want you to pick up where katy left off, talking about the political implications of this. this, of course, comes with great proximity not only to the election, but to confirmation hearings for a supreme court justice that is already a very tight timeline. how do you see this playing out?

>> i think, you know, donald trump has his work cut out for him in terms of keeping the nation and the voters' attention on his supreme court fight. i think that, you know, that occurring in the middle of this pandemic, so close to the election, was something that could energize his base to turn out for him. i think the question of whether or not he is corrupt and beholden to foreign entities, even to katy's point, domestic entities who he may be giving favors to because of the business dealings that he's involved with with them, that's potentially an issue that voters can and should care about. because we want to make sure our president is making the decisions domestically and in terms of foreign policy that are for the interests of the american people. that's why he's sworn in to govern. if he's not doing that, then that's certainly not just a conflict of interest, but that's a disqualifying factor in terms

of being the commander in chief. i think that politically, if joe biden wants to send a message that resonates with the everyday american, as i said before, it's not so much about the president not being as rich as he is, but who is giving him the money, and who is he going to be faithful to in terms of his decision-making versus the best interests of the american people? i think this is the core issue that many critics of the president have been hitting on from the beginning. i think the tax returns is really the bright, shiny object that can potentially reveal a lot about why many people felt that the president was a walking, talking conflict of interest in terms of his finances and the fact that he has to make decisions on behalf of the american people. so i think joe biden can do a lot with this story potentially. but in the middle of a pandemic, we know that there are -- there's still -- anything can

happen. so there's -- nothing is in the bank, as they say. i think joe biden needs to continue to get his people out so that turnout, those 4 million that stayed home between 2012 and '16, do not do so in 2020. >> to pick up on zerlina's point, one of the questions is about conflict of interest. we know there is a lot more reporting still on the way. what do you anticipate seeing as the story develops? >> what we've seen before. which is, if trump can get away with a conflict of interest, he will always do so. that began, of course, with his choosing not to put his company in trust. and it will continue. i'm sure it has continued now. you know, the really interesting thing to me about this is that the thing that will kill trump in this, the thing that biden can seize on in the debate, is that the number one most

important thing to trump is how much money he has. because he completely conflats his personal worth, his worth as a human being, with his net worth. if there's anything that comes clear in it's that, indeed, he a terrible businessman. i mean, it's a wonderful line in the "times" piece when it just very simple, ultimately, mr. trump has been more successful playing business mogul than being one in real life. you know, the fakeness of trump's story is so profoundly evident in these documents. this is a guy who has invented a fictional reality for 40 years and it is being torn asunder. >> dr. greer, i want to read you, of course, there are people on twitter, lots of democratic leaders who are firing off their thoughts. i want to bring you some of them. senator elizabeth warren tweeting, "the president pays

less in taxes than struggling families and he's proud of it. he thinks teachers and janitors should pay to keep our country running, not billion naaires an corporates." we have julian castro writing, "undocumented immigrants pay $11.7 billion in state and federal taxtaxes. in 2014. trump paid $7250 the year he became president and $750 the next year. he needs to stop free loading off americans." finally, senator bernie sanders tweeting, "shock of shocks. donald trump, the self-proclaimed billionaire, received a $72.9 million tax refund from the irs while not paying a nickel in federal income taxes in 10 out of 15 years. yes, trump l-o-v-e-s, loves corporate socialism for himself, rugged capitalism for everyone else." dr. greer? >> all these things are true. i appreciate the members of

congress, you know, speaking out about it. however, what is imperative is to take this messaging and distill it down to the voting public. it needs to be articulated in a way where voters see how this directly relates to them. yes, trump is a liar and a thief and a fraud. we know these things. black women have been screaming them from the rooftops, actually, for four years plus some. these things are facts. what needs to happen now is our elected officials, in cities and towns across the nation, distill this information in a way that voters can process it, where it mobilizes them and motivates them to actually turn out and vote on november 3rd. as zer relina mentioned we haver too many, millions of voter-eligible elections who chose to sit on the sidelines not just from 2012 to 2016 but every year we have roughly 40% of the voting h-eligible population chooses not to participate in the presidential election which obviously affects

down-state races, senate, house, mayors and judges and district attorneys throughout the nation. >> tony, i take the point that my colleague, stephanie ruhle, was making a little while ago, win is that as enticing as it may be for some to focus on the branding element of this, the fact that the president purports to be very wealthy but may not be as wealthy as once imagined, that the real focus needs to say on these foreign sources of money, foreign sources of influence, you know more about this brand than anyone else. i wonder what fissures you believe this reporting begins to snow. >> i think what it does is it just brings to life what people have been speculating without, in many cases, this documentation. so the evidence of influence or potential influence of particularly these rogue countries or these countries led by authoritarians who trump accepts money from, is now going to be out there for everybody to

see. i do think at the same time that the absolutely most important thing on a gut level for these americans who sit on the fence about where to vote right now is this guy's paying no taxes. he earns billions. or hundreds of millions. i'm paying significant percentage of taxes so i'm supporting donald trump? and i think you're going to see this bleed over into the corporate world, too, because we have a lot of very, very large corporations that are also paying little or no tax. whose burden is it to support the future of this country? is it the poorest people? or is it the wealthiest people? or is there a fairer way than we have right now? and this is quintessential unfairness. >> zerlina, you heard dr. greer's argument there that the real -- the real task before democrats is to figure out how

to distell what is in these tax records, what is in this reporting. and make it very relatable to people's lives. that is, a lot of the work that you have spent your time doing. so how do democrats take on that task? >> well, in 2016 i think in part the message that we try to get across that i think people are willing to at least consider now is that donald trump is a con man and that he puts forward false information to support his supposed wealth and also he tries to hype up his own success in order to make the case for why he would be a good president. now four years into his presidency i think all of us can understand pretty clearly that that is not true. and so i think that the con man nature of donald trump comes to the fore when he can see that not was he lying about all of his wealth and success before, and he was lying about how he acquired that success and became

the person he is now, but also i think that -- i think that -- i think that the tax returns demonstrate the evidence of that -- the fact that he had been a con man. >> all right. let's take a quick break, but we'll continue our coverage of his breaking news. "the new york times" got ahold of new documents showing just how little president trump pays in taxes. stay with us. for america. it's 5g ultra wideband, and it's already available in parts of select cities. like los angeles. and in new york city. and it's rolling out in cities around the country. with massive capacity. it's like an eight-lane highway compared to a two-lane dirt road. 25x faster than today's 4g networks. in fact, it's the fastest 5g in the world. from the network more people rely on. this is 5g built right. only on verizon. did you know diarrhea is often causedtry pepto diarrhea. food? pepto® diarrhea is proven effective to treat symptoms,

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that is all the time i have for this weekend. i want to thank my guests zerlina maxwell, christina greer, and tony schwartz. i'm alicia mendez. see you back here next saturday at 6:00 p.m. eastern. my colleague, joshua, picks up our breaking news coverage. >> very busy night of breaking news coverage. hi there, i'm joshua johnson. good to be with you tonight. from nbc news world headquarters in new york, welcome to "the week." let us begin tonight with the breaking story. some long-awaited reporting from "the new york times." it has obtained president trump's tax returns from the past two decades. the "times'" investigation shows that mr. trump paid just $750 in federal income taxes in the year he won the presidency. not