hi, everyone, it's 4:00 in the east. a blockbuster new investigation by "the new york times" into 20 years of donald trump's tax returns, which they obtained through legal and confidential means goes a long, long way

towards explaining trump's furious and desperate efforts towards using all the levers of the u.s. government he leads to keep his tax returns th s hiddem the public. we should note that nbc news has not independently reviewed the documents, but the investigation as laid out by "the times" is both intricate and simple. intricate, because it takes us deep inside a heavily leveraged and largely failed family business that was always a thin veneer over donald trump's shameless scams and potentially illegal fraud. but simple, because it suggests that he chaeeats on his taxes, facing massive debt, is being paid millions of dollars by foreigners, and is at risk for bankruptcy, criminal tax fraud, criminal bank fraud, and blackmail. other than that, nothing to see here. from that blockbuster report, quote, as the president wages a re-election campaign that polls say he is in danger of losing, his finances are under stress,

beset by losses and hundreds of millions of dollars in debt coming due that he has personally guaranteed. also hanging over him is a decades-long audit battle with the irs over the legitimacy of a $ $72.9 million tax refund that he claimed and received after declaring huge losses. an adverse ruling could cost him more than $100 million. "the times" investigation also reveals that donald trump paid $750 in federal income taxes the year he won the presidency and another measly $750 the first year in office. here are the other big scoops in "the times'" reporting. first, that the president is under extreme financial pressurpressur pressure. quote, mr. trump has reported losses at many of his signature hotels, including $55.5 million at his washington hotel and $15

million at his prized golf resort since 2000. he appears to have sold off most of his stocks and has relied heavily on debt. more than $300 million in loans he personally guarantee willed come due soon. second, no normal person could get cleared by the fbi or the cia to work in a white house or any part of the administration with that kind of debt, for fear that undue influence could be exerted on him or her. "the times" also reports, quote, with financial challenges mounting, mr. trump depends on businesses that can pose a conflict of interest. his properties have become bazaars for collecting money from foreign officials, and he earned millions oin licensing fees from international projects in his first two years in office, including $3 million in the philippines, $2.3 million from india and $1 million from turkey. the corruption of u.s. foreign policy long suspected by former national security adviser john bolton and communicated to ag barr when it came to turkey sounds even more plausible now,

doesn't it? the president, as an overleveraged potential tax fraud is where we start today. senior columnist at bloomberg opinion, tim o'brien, is here. he's been looking at trump's money for a long, long time. frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant and director for counterintelligence is back. frank is the author of the forthcoming book, "the fbi way." also with us, "new york times" chief white house correspondent, peter baker. peter baker, out with a new book, too, in which we hope to have him back to talk to about this week. it's called "the man who ran washington: the life and times of james baker." let me start with you, peter baker, on this stunning piece of reporting in "the times." take me through any highlights i missed or add context wherever you think it needs some. >> i think you hit the highlights. i think this tells us a lot about the president's own businesses, it tells us about his current and past financial conditions. hit i. it tells us a lot about his

reasons for hiding these income tax forms all these years, taking that case all the way to the supreme court. and i think it tells us that this is a president who has presented himself as something that he is not, which is to say, you know, a high successful businessman who, you know, is top of his game and has always been successful when, in fact, what he's told the irs, anyway, is that he's taken loss after loss on business after business over the years. and i think that there are so many different details in here, the $750 figure is obviously just stunning and striking so many people, americans, of course, pay so much more than that. claiming the deductions, writing off $70,000 in hair styling expenses from when he was on "the apprentice." there seems to be, you know, some consulting money that was paid to his daughter, all sorts of things in the documents that he's tried to hide for now four years and longer. >> and peter, we should say that he's denied some of this. there's a statement in "the new york times" reporting that is a

pretty narrow and parsed denial, but here's trump admitting that the federal government is stupid for giving him tax credits. let's listen. or cohen describing it. let's listen. >> when telling me in 2008 or 2009 that he was cutting employees' salaries in half, including mine, he showed me what he claims was a $10 million irs tax refund. and he said that he could not believe how stupid the government was for giving someone like him that much money bac back. >> so, peter, lest his followers or anyone not sure what to believe that this is conduct that trump wouldn't engage in, according to someone who worked very closely with him, this was his operating ethos. and i want to hit on two follow-ups to that. one, it was always known to a

small group of people around him that the business was not some grand, thriving thing. it was a family office. he sat in his office with a marker, marked up newspaper clips and sent them around. his obsession them is very similar to his obsession now. it's not the bigness of the job, it's the small thing around its edges. this reporting seems to confirm that. >> well, it does. and one of the things that i think is really striking, too, even now, even when he's in the oval office and serving the government and the public, he has $300 million in debt that he has personally, you know, obligated to repay coming due in the next four years. in the next four years, when he wants to serve a second term as president, these banks will decide whether or not to foreclose on a president of the united states for massive amounts of debt. and i think that that raises all sorts of issues in its own right, right? this is not a president that's flush with money, and therefore independent of outside

interests. it's quite the opposite. he's on the hook to outside interests in a very, very big and very personal way. >> you know, picking up on that point, frank figliuzzi, if you had too much credit card debt, you couldn't clear a background check to work at the white house. we know from reporting in "the new york times" and other accounts that ivanka and jared didn't clair their background checks. there were flags not just at the fbi, but at the cia. and john kelly and don mcgahn were overruled, trump gave them a clearance. could they all have similar baggage, similar concerns of being vulnerable to corrupt influences? >> yeah, look, you've just discussed the fact that ivanka is now wrapped up in this, because she's been claimed as a business expense for her consulting compensation while she's an employee of the trump organization. so they're exposed in this. and it might be part of why we saw so many concerns about jared kushner getting a security clearance. but i'm here to tell you, nicole, that if this applicant

named donald j. trump were presented to the fbi to work in the cafeteria of tat the hoover building, it would be disqualified for the financial mess that this reflects, for far less than what this reflects. hundreds of millions of dollars coming due on a personal hook for the president. the judgment alone is questionable, that he would put his name personally and be liable for that. and then when you look at the -- you know, it's very simple cost/benefit analysis and how much money do you have coming in? it's done for fbi employees throughout the government, all agencies, if you're going to have a clearance, it's a simple question. do you have more coming in than is going out or not? where's it coming from? and where is it going? and you will look at these tax returns and you see not only what's called tax avoidance, but you see clear violations with regard to air khaircut expenses

clothing expenses that you and i can't take per our tax accountants, but apparently he's found a way to do. how do you respond to that? one is to say that it's fake, but "the new york times" actually has advertise this tax. or he can say, i wasn't engaged, i knew nothing of what was going on. but he's screwed. he's essentially invoking his fifth amendment rights against self-incrimination when he won't release his tax returns publicly. he doesn't want us to see what's there, not only because it's embarrassing, but because it may be evidence of a crime. >> let me stay with that frank figliuzzi. it may be evidence of a crime if it's being investigated by irs enforcement division. is trump in a position to obstruct this investigation the way he obstructed the mueller probe, the way he's obstructed other criminal investigations into himself if that circumstance comes to pass? >> yeah, we need answers on this very question.

don't forget, firthe irs is parf the treasury department. the secretary of the treasury is mr. mnuchin, a buddy and kind of a henchman of the president. so i need to see congress engage in this and ask the hard question. where is this audit? how long has this been going on? has it been stymied? let's remember, when the president says, i can't release my tax returns because i'm under audit, what we now know through the "new york times" reporting is confirmed is this is no routine audit. it was triggered automatically because of the massive tax refund that he got and the massive losses that he was claiming, which put him in some years of the reporting among the top losses of individuals in the united states. >> you know, tim o'brien, you've been following the money. you've been sued for reporting on the money. i've got a bunch of specific questions for you, and i want to read some of your reporting today. but at first blush, what does this tell the rest of us that we

didn't already know about donald trump? >> well, i think it has to be in the context of his president, and that's what makes it all unique. you have someone who engineered the biggest tax cut in -- i think since the second world war, that largely benefited affluent americans and corporate america while unbeknownst to most other americans, he, himself, wasn't paying anything in federal income taxes. the average american that donald trump said he was going to washington, to go to battle for, he's essentially been laughing at and not even paying taxes at the most -- in excess of the most low-income taxpayers in america. secondly, donald trump is a major national security problem, in and of himself. i think "the times" allowbalowb the amount of debt that trump has. they may have been speaking specifically about what's coming

due short-term, trump has at least $1.1 billion in debt. he may have around $2 billion in assets. there's a $1 billion gap there. the issue is going to come -- the problem for donald trump is that he's in industries that have been creamed by the coronavirus. commercial and residential real estate, travel, leisure, et cetera. as he gets squeezed and money comes due, is donald trump going to be a mark for foreign interests that want to squeeze him with the idea of helping bail him out? and that's not a new development. that has been hanging over him since he was inaugurated. the beauty and the value of what t"the times" has done is they'v put numeric clothing on all of this. >> you know, i want to press all of you on what this does to the trump brand. i remember during the 2015 and 2016 fuzzy coverage of trump as this real political phenomenon,

one of his sons said, oh, he's a blue collar billionaire, but the whole brand was always wrapped in wealth. if it turns out that the wealth was a big lie, tim o'brien, what is the sort of political exposure that donald trump's done? and i want to put one more data point in the constellation. he thinks e of people in the military and who serve their country are suckers and at best doesn't understand why they serve. it appears that he thinks people who pay their taxes are idiots. that people with good accountants can find a way not to do so. he makes a mockery of all the rules that people have to live by, which is the exact political cudgel he used against hillary clinton. he's laughable he ever made those claims. >> nicole, donald trump is not a wealthy man. he's never been as wealthy as he says he is. he is not worth $10 billion, but he is comfortably, comfortably

wealthy. and that is the issue here. i don't think donald trump is about to go broke anytime soon, but that will develop. what this reveals, though, is you are entitled to get massive benefits from the federal tax code because you are wealthy. in particular if you're in real estate. there are all sorts of gimmicks and write-offs you can do if you're a real estate developer and it's common among all of the large real estate developers, to wind up paying nil in taxes. and i think the real scandal here is what's legal. now, what's illegal is the stuff that's going to get him in trouble with the new york district attorney -- with the manhattan district attorney's office. that's going to await him, i think, long after he leaves the white house if he doesn't win this election this year. he's got serious problems in his accounting and in his taxes that are possibly criminal. and he and his children are going to have to face up to that. but the donald trump brand has

always been a con and a grift. it's about this idea that he's a self-made man who can teach everyone else in the united states how to become just as wealthy as he is. when, in fact, he's somebody who was born on third base and has constantly said he hit a triple. he inherit eed a lot of money fm his father, blew a lot of that money. he remains comfortably wealthy, but does not care a jot for the average american voters who have put their faith and their confidence in him, that he was going to washington to change things. so the institutions that they perceived were taking advantage of them would no longer do nap and now lo and behold, donald trump has completely revealed as somebody who's been taking advantage for decades, not just years, but decades. >> you know, peter baker, one of the more serious issues this raises for him as president and having worked in politics, i remember dealing with this for politicians i worked for, who had careers in business before

they came to office, that were a shadow of what he's got. but let me read from the reporting on his penchant of profiting off the presidency. the records go much further towards revealing the actual and potential conflicts of interest created by mr. trump's refusal to divest himself of his business interests wi s while i white house. his properties have become bazaars for collecting money from lobbyists, foreign officials, and others seeking face time, access, or favors. the records for the first time put precise dollar figures on those transactions. at the mar-a-lago club in palm beach, a flood of new members starting in 2015 allowed him to pocket an additional $5 million a year from the business. and "the times" and others have reported on his pushing his other properties, he pushed doral for a meeting of the g-7. he's pushed the scotland property for other gatherings. he has mixed business and the presidents in an unprecedented

way. >> that's exactly right. other presidents have had business interests, of course, and there have, in fact, been concerns about conflicts at times, but nothing like this. nothing on the scale of this. the president didn't put his assets in a blind trust. he's still basically running the company through his children. he may not be spending much time on it, but certainly profiting from it. and in fact, the outside world knows that if you want to, you know, get in with the trump, you know, clique, you go to trump hotel in washington. you go to doral, you go to all of these different places and become a member of mar-a-lago. this has become part and parcel of the trump world and they're inextricable. they cannot be severed and they have not been severed. so we've seen multiple lawsuits trying to enforce what's called the emoluments clause of the constitution, that says that the president or a federal official can't take money from a foreign interest, and that so far has not been successful in the courts.

one thing that we discovered in these tax records that we did not know whether it would be in there or not, my colleagues did not see additional evidence of particular ties to russia that we have thought could be in there. one of the reasons why people speculated on why he might be hiding these tax forms is there doesn't seem to be additional financial contact with russia that we expected. but there are so many other places. you already pointed out with turkey and all of these other questions that they raise all sorts of other questions. >> i want to end on peter's point with you, frank figliuzzi. peter's interviewed john bolton. one of the most alarming things he describes in the book is a couple of phone calls he made to attorney general barr about concerns there had been a co-mingling of the country's foreign policy and donald trump's either personal or business interests. and one of those countries was

turkey. the policy decisions trump has made that benefit turkey repelled jim mattis, they involved allowing a bunch -- all of our kurdish allies to be slaughtered with that invasion he allowed erdogan to proceed with. it turns out all of those lives, those allies were worth $1 million to him on the tax documents we read about. >> when he look at the actions of trump in the foreign policy arena through a financial lens, and it's not just a profiteering lens, it is a survival, existential factor for him. when you look at debt and understand he has to make a profit from his protest or he's facing potential bankruptcy on a personal level, you now know what drives him and what actually could be the compromise in his life. you used the phrase earlier, the big lie, to describe this perpetuation of the facade. you only need to look to a guy

named general michael flynn to see the counterintelligence aspect of what it means to try and profit from your position and what it means to hide a lie that someone else can help you hide. so flynn lied to the fbi, for reasons that still escape us, but the president has been lying aboutacumen and his wealth. so a foreign power comes along and says, we can help. you do this for us, we'll help with the finances. i have to tell you from a counterintelligence operator standpoint, if we saw a target with this kind of debt, this kind of possible fraud and tax avoidance at his country, we would be on him like crazy to recruit him and offer him whatever he needed to get out of his troubles. >> that is the precise topic that we are going to turn to next with frank and peter strzok, who's joining us in just a moment. peter baker and tim o'brien,

thank you both for starting us off. and peter, congrats to your paper on this unbelievably informative scoop. when we come back, we'll dive into the counterintelligence threats that trump has possibly opened the country up to by someone who was there, someone who worked on an early counterintelligence investigation into the president. the aforementioned peter strzok. plus, who else could trump have tested for loyalty as he did jim comey at the start of his presidency. this as we learned more about potential compromise he could be under. we'll ask the man who spent months studying jim comey, acclaimed actor jeff daniels is our guest. we'll talk to him about all of the day's headlines and what he says is the struggle to be an apolitical public servant in today's america. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" cons continues in just a moment. don't go anywhere. inues in justt don't go anywhere. ners who have turned into their parents. i'm having a big lunch and then just a snack for dinner. so we're using a speakerphone in the store.

is that a good idea? one of the ways i do that is to get them out of the home. you're looking for a grout brush, this is -- garth, did he ask for your help? -no, no. -no. we all see it. we all see it. he has blue hair. -okay. -blue. progressive can't protect you from becoming your parents, but we can protect your home and auto when you bundle with us. -keep it coming. -you don't know him.

"the new york times" bombshell reporting about donald trump's tax returns also reveals foreign entanglements that could make him a serious threat to our country's national security. according to the times, trump is, quote, personally responsible for loans and other debts totaling $421 million with most of it coming due within four years. and in his first two years in the white house, his revenue from abroad totaled $73 million. those kinds of foreign receipts and the mystery of to whom he owes all of that money do little to diminish the theory that trump could be compromised. in the chapter of kompromat that

exists in the senate report about russia's undue influence is something that our next guest writes about in his new book. peter strzok tweeted last night, quote, this is a road map of some of the ways trump is compromised. in the hands of hostile intelligence service, these millions of dollars represent coercive leverage over trump, as a result of undisclosed foreign financial deals while he was president. peter strzok joins our conversation. he's a former fbi deputy assistant director of counterintelligence. he's also the author of the new book "compromised." frank figliuzzi remains with us. peter, i saw your tweet last night and i clipped it and sent it to my team and i'm thrilled that you're here to talk to us about it. but this seems like precisely the sort of what animated a lot of the angst about donald trump and his ties to russia or it would appear other foreign governments. talk about it. >> that's absolutely right, nicole. thanks for having me here. part of the concern of any counterintelligence professional

is looking for these hidden financial entanglements. and watching and having done that over six different administrations, every foreign country is trying to use money to get leverage and influence on any given presidency. what the information in "the new york times" reports out of those tax records, the breadth and volume of that monetary back and forth is stunning. it's simply unprecedented. and in any president in modern history. so if you look at the ways that can be used to, as leverage over trump, you have to think of this first and foremost as a national security issue. yes, this is a financial issue, but first and foremost, the ways that it can be used to impact the national security of the united states, by the way, can be used against trump is unprecedented. and is deeply concerning. >> you know, peter baker said in the last block that "the times" tax return data didn't include any new dots connecting back to russia, but it would seem to make the old ones and the new

ones of things that have happened since he's president all the more concerning. can you talk about, if the counterintelligence investigation had proceeded and there's good reason to believe that it didn't for a host of reasons, what would you have wanted to see? >> well, of course, that's an excellent point, that what we're seeing, what i understand that the "new york times" saw were overt records. these are things used in accounting and in filings with the irs. what this isn't is anything that's hidden or, you know, intended to remain off the books. and of course, that's the environment where most foreign intelligence services, certainly sfirve sophisticated ones, are going to try operate. so i wouldn't expect to see necessarily, without getting into any sort of investigative detail, i think it is reasonable to assume that many countries are well capable of placing money into trump or his sbess around him in a way that doesn't show up on the books, that isn't going to show up on filing with

the irs. so the absence of that information doesn't surprise me, but that is very much something i would expect to see had that counterintelligence investigation taken place. >> you know, peter, i want to broaden the lens. we talk so much about russia, it was sort of the beating heart of the mueller probe and the early questions about his campaign, coincidentally or otherwise, five of them had done business in russia. but i want to ask you more broadly about all of the really outside the mainstream foreign policy views he takes. whether it's the slaughter of jamal khashoggi, a journalist who lived and worked in virginia, donald trump didn't just defend mbs, he toed the crowned prince's line. turkey is something we've been talking about. john bolton writes in his book that he was so concerned u.s. foreign policy vis-a-vis toik, he called ag barr, same with china. do you think this is a president just out there chucking and jiving and lookinging for side hustles? >> i do.

i think largely, many of these decisions are driven by personal business interests. and the most important thing is, they're being driven in a way that's hidden. and because they're hidden from the american people, that is precisely what gives these foreign nations leverage over them. so again, that "new york times" data, it talks not just about russia, it talks about turkey, about the philippines it talks about a azerbaijan and dubai. and the concerning thing is until yesterday, none of those transactions were known. so each and every one of those hidden transactions, those hidden payments provide a leverage point for the foreign nations to use over the president and really go a long way to explaining, as you said, some of these just absolutely nonsensical decisions that don't have any benefit to u.s. national security. >> i want to make sure i didn't miss this. so you think it is a plausible, or at least, worthy of further examination, to try to connect otherwise inexplicable foreign

policy moves that do nothing to advance american foreign policy with his business interests, to try to lay those over and understand if there are side deals or other negotiations between the trump businesses and those countries? >> that's exactly right. and that's the goal of counterintelligence. what the fbi and other u.s. intelligence community agencies are trying to do from a counterintelligence perspective is understand why foreign nations and how those foreign nations are doing what they're doing and what they're trying to achieve. so we can clearly lay out why it's in turkey or egypt or saudi arabia's or any number of countries to get actions, policy actions, by this administration. and when we see trump in particular doing those things, again, as you said, from a perspective that makes no sense for u.s. national security, the counterintelligence question becomes why is he doing that? and now we know that certainly there are any number of financial direct pressure points that could be used to be causing that. and that's why you do

counterintelligence. that's why you seek to understand these hidden connections to look at and see where those pressure points and why decisions are being made the way they are in a matter that otherwise make no sense from the standpoint of the u.s. interests. >> you know, frank figliuzzi, i have a combination of waves of shock and lightbulbs going off. it's such a simple explanation, but i think until we had this tax return data, it wasn't something that could be pinned down. tell me if you agree that behind every bizarre foreign policy utterance and action that does nothing to advance this country's foreign policy, it's worthwhile of looking to see if there's an intersection with trump's business interests? and tell me how concerned you are that that could be the case and that there could really be some compromising and compromised positions that the president has taken because of his debt. >> well, look, pete has previously mentioned that the

finances around trump seem to be and are likely the most prevalent driving factor in any compromise. you and i, nicole, have talked about the fact that the president has no shame, so therefore videos of him engaging in inappropriate behavior would not bother him in the least. so it's likely finances, if there's a compromise. and look, there are gaps here that we don't know the answer to. when someone is in this much debt, yet deutsche bank hands him loans for -- that no other bank would give a guy, that has this kind of debt, we need answers to that. and this is a painful reminder that those answers have not even been pursued by the u.s. government and intelligence community. and i'm going to go a step further here. the counterintelligence concern will not go away if this president doesn't get re-elected. here's what i mean. ask any corporate security director about the trade secrets in his company. ask him the threat posed by retirees and people who resign from office, that engineer, that scientist who has the secret formula. now imagine what a president who

needs cash, imagine what he could do to us with the foreign intelligence service, talking about how our nuclear system works, talking about what launch codes look like, talking about where a president goes, where that bunker is, all of the various things that a president is privy too. it doesn't go away when he goes away. and so i would assert that we need these answers and we need the investigation to get opened and continue, even if he doesn't get re-elected. >> i guess i want to end on that. so pete, do you think that counterintelligence investigation, if there isn't one underway now, should be opened into fthe president, his finances? >> absolutely. frank's absolutely right. this is something that doesn't go away whether or not he is re-elected. it is something we need to know not just what happened in the past, but to protect ourselves going forward, we absolutely have to get to the bottom of understanding what his vulnerabilities are and what exists as we're talking right now.

>> peter strzok and frank figliuzzi, both of you guaranteeing i will not sleep tonight. thank you, though, for your incredibly special and unique expertise. it's a pleasure to get to talk to both of you on a day like this about a story like this. after the break, award-winning actor jeff daniels joins me to discuss his new mini series, "the comey rule," which takes a closer look at the turbulent relationship between donald trump and former fbi director, jim comey. donald trump and former fbi director, jim comey.

it's true, mr. president, you can fire the fbi director at any time for any reason or for no reason at all, because i want to stay because i love the bureau and i love my job and i believe i'm doing it well. >> one thing i never had to think about in trump organization, because i did so much myself is people think, oh, you were so big, but truth is, i did everything. and i have to rely on people, i have all of these idiot advisers around who think they got me elected. you know who i actually listen to? tv people. because i've got to get ratings, every day. white house adviser can guess wrong, still keep his job. not the tv guys. a lot of smart people in that business. >> well, you can rely on me, sir, to tell you -- >> i need loyalty. >> that was a clip from the fantastic new showtime two-part mini series "the comey rule." it's based on former fbi

director jim comey's 2018 memoir, "a higher loyalty." the series follows comey through two consequential investigations taken by the fbi around and during the fbi legislation. the investigation into hillary clinton's e-mails and a much-more secret investigation into donald trump's campaign and their ties to russia. that part we just played for you was a seminole moment in comey's account, the president asking him for personal loyalty, ignoring the rule of law, and the mission of the fbi to be apolitical. it's a moment that pains jim comey to this day, that happened to be the scene they were filming when the former fbi director visited the set and he described it as, quote, eerily accurate and said he felt slightly ill watching it. joining our conversation is someone who should never make anyone feel ill, our friend, award-winning actor, jeff daniels. he stars in the new mini series, "the comey rule," as jim comey, of course, airing now on showtime. so i watched this.

i was so captivated by your performance. it is so smart, it is so subtle, it is so faithful to the facts. you're getting -- those are the reviews coming in from a lot of the players. i just had one of them on, pete strzok. but i wonder what it is like. i got to meet you when you were on broadway in "to kill a mockingbird." no one who lived those exact events could watch it and text you or call you. what is it like to play people who are still very much in the arena? >> well, you -- you certainly acknowledge it and then you bail on it, because you have to treat it like any other job. and it helped me that as atticus finch, i was going up against the ghost of gregory peck, which is as real if not worse than comey. so then to go right from that into "the comey rule," i knew eventually i would meet him. i didn't meet him beforehand. i had the book, i had the audio book of jim reading it, i had

youtube, even on the kolbert show, you got to see his sense of humor. so i had plenty going in. e-mailed him in "the end of mockingbird," i said, i'm in new york, you know where to find me. he said, thanks, but he didn't come up. and i didn't want to impose. i didn't want to go down to his house. but then you got a job to do. and at the end of the day, you're not doing it for him, you're doing it for people who want to know what he was thinking. and it's a bonus if he likes it. but, you know, it's not like we're going to reshoot it if he doesn't. so you try to do a real authentic portrayal and certainly i had the book to go from. >> well, look, it is -- it is a production and it is art, but it also has a purpose. and i know billy ray and the producer and writer and you felt strongly that it come out before the election. explain that?

>> that was the deal. that was what we were pitched and why we all jumped onboard. we want to be part of the conversation. we know one part of the story and that's trump. well, comey's a liar. and there's another side. and this is that. and certainly before an election, you might want to hear that other side to be more informed than perhaps all of us were in october of 2016. so it was important to billy, it was important to me that that be -- that it come out before the election and when it wasn't going to be coming out before the election, that, you know, that was unacceptable. >> what is it eabout the comey story that is so important to the trump story? because i feel that the comey story is so central to the trump story. to me, it's where trump most blatantly asks the fbi to serve him and not the country. the country's preeminent law enforcement agency is supposed to catch bad guys, protect the homeland from terrorists, from mass shootings, from threats.

donald trump, what, 40 days in, 30 days in, asks jim comey to turn it in a totally different direction, so it serves basically as trump's secret police. drop political investigations into mike flynn, protect him, be loyal to him? how does that story being told? i mean, what to you is so important about that story being told here in the final 35 days before an election? >> one of the things that struck me and the contrast between how jim comey and donald trump. you have honesty, decency, and a respect for the rule of law on one side and you have the opposite of that on the other. and we're so politically polarized. we don't know what's true anymore. what giuliani told us, truth isn't truth. we're all confused, especially out in the midwest where we're going, who's telling the truth?

and it's nice to see, and i think the show reminds us of, here's an honest, decent guy. you may not like what he did, but you need to know more about why he did it before you start, you know, vilifying him again. there were reasons. there was rock and a hard place and he was trying to hang on to the sacredness of the rule of law, of the institutions that make america what it is, to right, to truth, to facts, to justice. those are all things that they're bigger than jim comey. and he reveres them. and people think of him as a self-righteous or a boy scout. you know, that's a guy who believes in those things and will make decisions based on those things. and nowhere in there is how the political left feels about it or how the political right feels about it. and i -- i think we need to be reminded of that going into this election, because i think on the ballot, forget left/right, on

the ballot, do you believe in honesty or dishonesty? do you believe in decency or indecency? do you believe in telling the truth or lying? vote. and "the comey rule" is an example of one side and the other. and "the new york times" yesterday, come on. i want to ask you about all of the news of the day, because i know you're steeped in it. and you, like me, come in constant frequent contact with people on the other side of the trump question, so i want to ask you, we talked last time about what's breaking through and in the time of a global pandemic and the economic crisis created by this country's uniquely terrible response to it, i just want to ask you what it looks like there. could i ask you to stick with us through a break and talk to you more on the other side? >> you bet. >> all right. jeff daniels is staying with us. up next, donald trump facing new scrutiny as joe biden pulls

ahead. we'll have more with jeff daniels on the other side. l hav daniels on the other side.

my father always reminded me, "a good education takes you many different horizons" and that sticked to my mind. so, when $1 a day came out, i said, "why not"? why not just utilize that resource. and walmart made that path open for me. without the $1 a day program, i definitely don't think i'd be in school right now. each week for me in school is just an accomplishment. i feel proud every step of the way.

am i overreacting, no. >> no, this is how a mob boss talks. a. >> a few take aways. the independents of the fbi doesn't mean anything to him. he sees everything in terms of personal loyalty. he thinks you have a problem

with him. i told him you don't. >> boss, you have to be very careful here. memorialize any more conversations you have with them. >> this can't happen again. it is completely inappropriate. >> mr. president, am i suppose ed to refuse his call. >> we're back with actor jeff daniels, who played jim comey there in the new mini series, the comby role. that was you talking to andy mccabe and some of other comey's other deputies. the degree to which the conversations between principals and staffers is remarkable. i want to ask you another question about the mini series. do you think there's an explanation known to all of us yet for all of the lies about russia? >> it's not known to us yet, no. no. it's not known to us yet. but if it were stripped, they would take it back because the

bad guy's too obvious. look -- >> that's certainly -- >> i mean, it's just a badly written bad guy. it's so transparent. the fact that i believe it was "the new york times" today wrote an article about putin to maybe call a truce to the cyber space thing with america. that's putin getting into the lifeboat on the titanic. okay? >> yeah. yeah. >> what are they talking about in hello sisinki. there's all of that. the tax returns they don't show us. it's so obvious and where did he get all the money? all roads as speaker pelosi said, all roads lead to putin. times are running out. this is a bad movie we're living through. if it weren't so life and death, it's a bad movie.

>> how does it feel in michigan for trump? he's behind joe biden by eight points, losing support among some of the strongest groups that backed him in the state of michigan four years ago. white men. how does it feel and what do you attribute his decline there four years later to? >> the republican party has always been strong in the midwest and in michigan. i mean, we voted to the left i think since the reagan then trump is the first time we didn't. but i have a lot of friends who have voted republican their whole lives and it's tough for them because and i've told a couple of them, i said the republican party that you belong to, that my dad belonged to, doesn't exist anymore. what stewart stevens writes about and it's a lie. jim comey lived that. family values. truth. being honest. going to church. all that stuff.

my dad worshipped, i mean, that was what he was. but he always voted republican, but those guys are lost. they don't have a party. i was talking to a historian in the spring of 2016 and this historian, prominent historian, told me it's the end of the republican party. if they elected donald trump b, it's the end of the republican party. he got elected. and i think now they're just destroying themselves and biden sitting back, kamala sitting back going let them blow themselves up. they seem to be doing it all on their own. it is just, the it's sad. because friends of mine now have to look at joe biden as their answer and it's like well, you know, you could do a lot worse. you know? and it's, i also think that time this is, gloomy, and november

3rd is an opportunity. this is a chance to write the first chapter of a new america. you've got it in the candidates in biden and kamala. you've got it in the outreach of the black lives matter. you've got it in the one of the most important events that happened in the last four years was the woman's march the day after his inauguration. remember the pictures of that. better be outraged now. take all that outrage, all of us and get the vote out. make sure that this nightmare that is trump and all the people, the sycophants and enablers and those who are complicit all go down with him because this is an opportunity to turn it around and i know the courts are stacked, but still. this is an opportunity. but people have to get involved. >> jeff daniels, you are one of

our favorite guests. you are always welcome to come back, whether you have a show time mini series out or not. thank you so much for spending some time with us and everyone should watch both parts of the two-part series, the comey rule. i think they're both up as of tonight. exceptional. if you can stand to go back in time and relive these events, it is one of the best detpictions f what they were like. so say the people who were in the room. the next hour of deadline white house starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. fter a quick break. don't go anywhere. 's term and the primary process has started we'll wait to the next election. i want you to use my words against me. you're on the record. yeah, hold the tape. lindsey must go and the lincoln project are responsible for the content of this ad.

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totally fake news. made up. fake. we went through the same stories. you could have asked me the same stories four years ago. actually, i paid tax. and you'll see that as soon as my tax returns, it's under order. they've been under order for a long time. the irs does not treat me well. >> hi, again, everybody. it's 5:00 in the east. if it sounds like "the new york times" bombshell exclusive on donald trump's tax returns is under donald trump's skin, that might be because of headlines like this one. the fake billionaire plastered across the right leaning drudge report highlighting the damaging portrayal from "the new york times" of the president's finances. his success in business, which was his chief sales pitch to his base in 2016, described today as more performance than reality. from that reporting, quote, together with related financial documents and legal filings, the

records offer the most detailed look yet inside the president's business empire. they reveal the hollowness, but also the wizardry behind the self-made billionaire image. ultimately, mr. trump has been more successful playing a business mogul than being one in real life. this massive spes investigation draws on more than two decades of tax return data. that a himself has gone to great lengths to conceal from state and federal investigators as well as congress, it exposes donald trump as a financial loser. to borrow a favorite expression of his. quote, most of mr. trump's core enterprises from his constellation of golf courses to his conservative magnet hotel in washington report losing millions, if not tens of millions of dollars year after year. and within the next four years, more than $300 million in loans obligations for which he is personally responsible, will come due. but the revelation that his

landed with perhaps the loudest thud inside donald trump's campaign just 36 days out from the closing of the polls is this. quote, donald j. trump paid $750 in federal income taxes the year he won the presidency. in his first year in the white house, he paid another $750. he had paid no federal income taxes at all in ten of the previous 15 years. largely because he reported losing much more money than he made. we should note that nbc news has not independently reviewed the documents that form the basis of "the new york times" investigation. and "the new york times" points out that trump has paid other kinds of federal taxes, like medicare and social security, but the fact that the self-described billionaire mogul president paid zero to $750 in income tax in the most recent years, far less than the bills paid by most average americans, most struggle ling to make ends meet, has already become a central argument of a new video

just out from the biden campaign showing teachers, firefighters and nurses, some of the front line workers in the pandemic, also bearing the brunt of his failed response to covid. all pay more income tax than donald trump. that is where we start this hour. some of our favorite reporters and friends. former rnc chairman and senior adviser to the lincoln project, michael steele is here. also, eddie gloud and "new york times" reporter, nick. lucky for us. eddie and nick are msnbc contributors. nick, first, congratulations to your colleagues and to your paper for this stunning piece of reporting that goes a long way toward filling in some of the questions, not all of them, on donald trump's financial picture. take me through any of the highlights either that i glossed over or that you think deserve conte context? >> well, look, for the big picture, i think the big take away from this stunning piece of reporting by colleagues of mine is that president trump was not

a good investor in real estate. he was very good at selling himself as a good investor of real estate, but he was bad at the actual part involve iing th real estate investing. he lost so much money investing in real estate that he was able to use those losses to off set income in the thing he was actually good at, which is playing a mogul on tv. which is how he got back to paying zero in taxes those years and 750 in some years. it's a great piece of reporting and of course if your hair stylist cost a lot of money, nicole, you can probably extend for him. >> i don't think it would count as any surprise that mine doesn't and i don't, but i will leave it at that. michael steele, i just want to come to you on the lies. i mean, as tim o'brien said in the last hour, he's plenty rich

enough. why the scam? why the charade? the lies about all of the losses? >> i don't think we'd have a couch long enough for us to lie down on. not him, but us. you know, that's the truth of it. you know, who understands and knows the psychology here? this is a level of dysfunction and, and sort of you know, egomaniacal games playing that none of us would ever expect to see in a president of the united states. look. this is the ponzi scheme that's gotten exposed. robbing peter to pay paul. not paying paul at all. this is you know, this has been a lifetime for trump of a shell game. and trying to figure out how to avoid to do the very thing that the rest of us do every two weeks. when we get that paycheck and we see uncle sam has gotten his fair share. in some cases, more than his fair share.

and yet, trump has avoided that and that's the part that sticks and i think will rub the rawest here. i think the biden campaign ad is brilliant. don't have to say anything. just show you the numbers. teachers, $7,000. you know, nurses, you know, $12,000. in taxes. these are people real people in the middle of dealing with covid-19 and they're still paying their taxes. so this is a tough message for trump right now. and it will be interesting to see how he dances on that pinhead tomorrow night when he's asked about it and i'm sure we'll hear 1,000 times he's under aud iit. only paid $750 in taxes and that has nothing to do with your audit. >> they talked about the coach. so let's go there. i mean, we look at this repo

reporting that after forbes valued trump's holdings at just $200 million, donald trump called in as a fake persona, persona named john barren. called jonathan green burg to make the case that donald trump was donald trump under the pseudo name was much richer. i'm told by people that know from there are three things he cares about and sadly for the country, the democracy he leads, they have nothing to do with the rule of law or america's national security. there are questions about the size of his wealth. questions about his virility, his sexual prowess and his intelligence. what do you make of what's going on at the white house in the trump campaign right now? >> well, first of all, those three elements, nicole, suggest a profound narcissist. we can just say that. up front. although i'm not clinically qualified to make that judgment, but it seems that way. let's be clear.

donald trump said in the art of the deal that he deals in effect with people's fantasies. that he knows that people want the spectacular, right? he says he engages in truthful hyperbole. i don't know how true that adjective actually is. but he knows he's playing on the field of people's fantasies. and now that that's been pierced and people see him for what he is, i think what the white house and the campaign is trying to, and the trump campaign is trying to grapple with is what do we place instead? what do we do in response to the piercing of the illusion? check this out, nicole. when you find out that wwe wrestling is fake, do you stop watching it? i don't think so. i think this is the key. right? that donald trump has been engaged in, in perpetuating this

lie. people know, i mean mark cuban tried to call him to the table. bloomberg, warren buffett, let's put our taxes. folk know or knew that he was just bluster and now that we have the evidence, i don't know how much that will change people from watching the game. if that makes sense, nicole. >> you know, i want to read more from the reporting to you, nick. this is about what could become his next legal battle. and possible criminal exposure if there's fraud alleged. the times reports mr. trump has written off his business expenses, co.s coses including fuel and meals associated with his aircraft. used to shuttle him among his various homes and properties. likewise, the cost of haircuts including more than 70,000 paid to style his hair during the apprentice. together, nine trurp entities have written off at least $95,000 paid to favorite hair and makeup artist of ivanka

trump. you mentioned this before. the piece of this that to foe low up on eddie's point, the trumps are nothing like any of the people that they want to vote for them. and olivia troy, she's the third former homeland security official to come out in the miles taylor, elizabeth newman, she described donald trump as finding a silver lining in the pandemic to be that he didn't have to touch his supporters anymore because he was disgusted by them. this is just another data point that puts him farther away from his voters and the lives they lead, nick. >> well, look, it's hard to assess 24 hours in the publication of this story the impact it will have on the race, how it will change the perception of the voters, but i think the power of the story for me as a reader and journalist is in the details. the small amount of taxes paid, these tax write offs for his haircuts and hair styling. what that means is that people

like you and me are paying for his hair stylists. that's what that means essentially. and i think these details are relatable. it's too soon to see if it changes the perception of voters who are important, but it certainly casts a really important light on how he has functioned as a business leader and investor for anyone who cares about that. >> and it remains to be scene how big of a deal joe biden might make of this or whether he ignores it tomorrow night, but senator harris spoke to lawrence o'donnell while ago and here's what she had to say about it. >> as you know from your work in the senate intelligence committee, debt, personal debt, is a very significant issue when considering security clearances. what is your reaction to that debt that the president has? >> well, i mean, lawrence, this is why the american people deserve to have a full accounting of the financial

interests including the indebtness of the president of the united states and i do share in that concern. who does he owe the money to? tell us. who do you owe the money to? and do you owe debt to any foreign nation? do you owe, do you owe debt, do you owe money, somebody money, do you owe anybody money who is impacted by any decision you make as president of the united states? we need to know that. the american people have a right to know that when the president of the united states acts, he acts with their priorities in mind, not with his priorities in mind and we've already known that he puts his political priorities in front of the american people. but we are now seeing in a way that is evident, clearly evident, that he also is prepared to put his personal interests ahead of the american people by not disclosing who he owes money to and apparently, he

owes a lot of money. maybe to a lot of people and we should know. >> so, michael steele, that's a run at 10:00, but she makes the same points that were made much more sharply by peter strzok and frank, two former deputy fbi directors in the counterintelligence arena, who say that if there isn't already, there should absolutely be a counterintelligence investigation to answer the question kamala harris just laid out. to whom does he owe money and whomever that is, what leverage are they exerting over him? and if you look at his puzzling foreign policy interactions from toting the mbs, is crown prince of saudi arabia's line on the slaughter and dismembering of the journalist living and wo working in virginia. you look at the inse sant defense of russia.

you look at the policies when it came to turkey, who we know from these returns gave him a million bucks that repelled his own secretary of defense. his own national security adviser. it certainly seems that just from where you and i sit, there are plenty of little crumbs that would seem worthy of investigation. >> absolutely. i've said for a number of years now, that the sweet ticklish spot in this trump orbit is the foreign entanglements. kamala has it exactly right in term s of the inquiry there because the reality of it is his son has told us. how do you think we built our golf courses? the russians gave us the money. you know. so, that's, that's don jr. telling us that. that wasn't an investigation. he just volunteered there. oyeah, i think there is reason now in light of this reporting and more reporting as i understand from reading that times article to come. that there is incumbent upon the

congress to raise the stakes here. because our national security is at risk. the interest of the united states are in play. and if there is a financial interest that the president deems greater, a personal financial interest he deems greater than our interest as a nation and our interest as citizens, yeah. i think i'd want to know about that. >> you know, and just to close the loop on this, part of what it raises, there's detail after detail about what may end up looking really shady and really the way a rich person and a rich real estate person manipulates the tax code. the other side of it is the slashing yellow that i said pete and frank talked about. senator harris talked about. that is the national security line of question iing and you'v got dan coates telling bob woodward, it was clear putin had

something on him. you've got john bolton calling attorney general barr about the president's conduct with turkey, about china. i mean, do you think it's plausible that when the truth emerges and we know it will eventually, that there were all sorts of things for sale? >> yes, absolutely. i mean, $421 million personally guaranteed loans? i think that's what, that's the figure, right? and how that could be leveraged. i mean, it's very clear. i watched the segment, the earlier segment with peter strzok and it was clear that not only does it present a national security threat now, it presents a national security threat moving forward, right? and you combine that with the reality of cheats, with regards to the tax code stuff that i don't understand but we see there's a different set of rules for people like donald trump. you see it in the -- i mean, he

stiffed people for $287 million that he didn't pay back since 2010? it goes beyond just simply being a drifter. he's a crook. i think it's clear. not only is he a crook, he's a crook that presents a threat to our national security as a country and we need to recognize it for what it is. >> nick, sorry, want to give you a quick last word. i'm no financial wizard, but looks like there's a possibility he could bankrupt if this audit goes against him. do you have any preview of what the subsequent times report iin has or any thoughts on the financial picture the president will be in total? >> well, stay tuned on the future reporting participant, but you can look up a story and see that this is a man who owes a lot of money. now, his debtors are stated -- thest not a huge mystery if you believe those, but the question

is what might a president who is deeply in debt do with the levers of government and power to clear his debts, avoid them. secure against them for the future. those are all fair questions to ask. it goes to questions of foreign policy. it goes to questions of banking regular lace. of how attuned he is to the money coming into thiz properties like the washington hotel and doral and special interests. all those are important considerations as to how a president who is deeply in debt might behave. >> unbelievable piece of repo reporting, again. congratulations to you and your colleagues. we're grateful to have it. michael and eddie are staying put. when we return, the times bombshell comes as new polls clear that donald trump is losing. both in the battleground states and nationwide. we'll have the latest numbers for you next. plus, the republicans latest maniacal plan to steal the 2020 election and what democrats are doing to prepare for that and joe biden will hammer trump over his mishandling of the coronavirus pandemic at tomorrow

night's debate. and with cases on the rise, there are new fears from the director of the cdc that trump is being spoon fed bad medicine about the virus by his new covid adviser. the white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ter a quick break. don't agonywhere. 20 years ago, i was an hourly associate cart pusher. the different positions i've had taught me how to be there for others. ♪ i started out as a cashier. i mean, the sky's the limit with walmart. it's all up to you. ♪ ♪

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the debate's coming up. everyone's going to be watching. how are you preparing specifically? >> i think i prepare every day. when you're president, you sort of see everything that they're going to be asking. >> it is going to be difficult. i know, my guess is it's going

to be straight attack. mostly personal. that's the only thing he knows how to do. he doesn't know how to debate the facts because he's not that smart. >> the first of three planned presidential debates is tomorrow night on cleveland. they're not short on topics to discuss, not to mention who knows what to expect from donald trump considering his latest round of polling. he is losing in maine. losing in wisconsin. losing in michigan and donald trump is losing minnesota. he and joe biden are statistically tied in georgia and north carolina, while trump leads in south carolina. but no matter how much loose cannon trump decided to be, there's almost certainly going to be a question on the topic we've been discussing today. here's how he addressed it in 2016. >> he showed he didn't pay any federal income tax. >> that makes me smart. >> joining our conversation is editor at a large, the 19th and msnbc contributor, aaron haines, eddie and michael steele are

still here. erin, what do you think of this issue? do you think the tax returns will be something that joe biden will inject or i have noticed a very messaged discipline joe biden on the stump. focused on the pandemic. focused on the economy. how do you see him using this bombshell reporting tomorrow night? >> well, i mean, i think that chris wallace has to address this as moderator and maybe it will go into the category, the topic of trump's record, right? but i mean i think that this has to be something they unpack in this debate and unpack early because frankly, amidst the pandemic with everything else that the american people are kind of juggling at home, i don't know if they have the bandwidth to hold 90 minutes of this conversation, but certainly at the top of this, this would be something they would want to tune into and appreciate with some help understanding although it's not like russia on the

ukraine. this is literally a kitchen table kind of issue that millions of people in this country who pay taxes understand you know, very clearly at least at the very top surface level. >> you know, people have asked me on and off tv, how does joe biden prepare for this debate? i never know what to say because donald trump is the guy who brought three of bill clinton's alleged extramarital relationships, women to the last debate. i mean, what do you say? how does joe biden prepare to go into a series of three debates with donald trump, whofrankly i think losing by more this time than he was four years ago. >> yeah. well, i mean i think this first debate is going to be a test of that. i think that this is probably like you were saying, he has been somebody that's been pretty disciplined and stayed on message in trying cast donald trump as inadequately responding to the pandemic and i think that for both of these candidates, you're going to e see them

bringing what they've been doing on the campaign trail to the debate stage for folks who have not been following the ins and outs of what they've been saying during this general election campaign. so i think that he will continue to talk about the president and his handling of the pandemic. the president and his mishandling of the issue of systemic racism in this country and you know, the implications of the president's supreme court nominee and the fact that you know, they're trying to rush this through with five weeks left to go until election day and with millions of americans already casting ballots across the country and so i think sticking to that and not attempting to fact check president trump in real time because if he did that, he would probably be doing that for the entirety of the time that they have on stage so not really doing that, but sticking to his message and really making sure that he is persuading voters in the home stretch is probably the strategy that joe biden is focused on.

>> you know, michael steele, i have a two-part question for you. donald trump, when confronted with someone rooted in facts, whether it was jonathan swan of axios or chris wallace of fox news, has been a miserable failure and i wonder what sort of version of trump you expect to see. here's a little preview of how trump's thinking about the debate. he tweeted on saturday, i will be strongly demanding a drug test of sleepy joe biden after the debate on tuesday night. nachl rally, i'll agree to take one, also. his debate performances have been record setting uneven to put it mildly. only drugs could have caused this discrepancy three question marks. donald trump went at it a little bit. this was biden's response. pretty good. vice president biden intended to deliver his answers in words. if the president thinks his best

case is made in urine, he can have at it. we expect nothing less from donald trump -- so, here we are. >> that's a little bit biting. yeah. i mean, come on. >> i thought it was a good response. >> it was an excellent response. >> trump's asking you to pee in a cup. >> no, perfect. i mean, that came from joe, so, we'll see what joe has to say on the stage. but here's the truth of it and i think we all kind of realized where we are at this point. donald trump, to the extent that he can make this a you know what show, and it starts with s, he will. he will stand on that stage and he will, the challenge he will have in someone like chris wallace is not going to play that game. he's going to hold his feet as much he can to the fire and then joe has that other obligation as

wem. wu as you know, trump's tweet is really you know, here, here's a bright shining object for everybody to get on. that says nothing, means nothing, is probably a form of projection. and to the extent that you know, he's going to you know, take a drug test, too, yeah. at the same time you release your tax returns. we get it. we know. we've been here. we get it. you know? and at some point, the american people just stop taking anything he says seriously. i thought though that eddie made a good point that should not be overlooked because out of all of this madness, there's a methodology. that's the wwe concept. that at the end of the the day, and i've already had some conversations since this tax story broke, people said yeah, but it shows that you know, he was really smart. he figured out how to use the system and i'm just like okay, bro, whatever. you try that. and let me know how much luck

you have, okay? you try not to pay your debts and avoid paying uncle sam and see how well you do. there is still this element of voters out, this level of support out there, that it didn't matter and that's what you're going to see trump play to tonight more than anything else. is to see how much everyone is against me. how much they're coming after me. how much the system is trying to tear me down. that tax story is a hoax. it's not true. you know. and so, that's something to keep an eye on to see how the needles move on that. you put up the states and where he's leading, where trump is leading, where joe is leading. i still, nicole, not convinced 35 days out that all the numbers we're seeing are real. there are a lot more trump loyalists, ak lights out there than i think a lot of folks really want to acknowledge. you know who they are. you probably go to bed with one at night. probably will have sunday din

eer with one this week. so, that's the reality of it. right now. >> michael, you always expand my horizons and way of looking at everything. thank you so much for spending some time with us. eddie's name has been invoked. errin is also sticking around. our special coverage of the first presidential debate starts tomorrow night at 8:00 eastern. i'll be there with joy and rachel and brian and we will be joined by a special guest, she is the last person to have debated donald trump head to head. the only person, actually, to have ever done that. former secretary of state, hillary rodham clinton joins us at 8:00 p.m. tomorrow. when we return, house speaker nancy pelosi, is warning democrats to be on guard for the newest republican plan to steal the 2020 election. that story deadline white house continues. election. that story deadline white house continues.

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♪ i know we'll make it to the finish line ♪ ♪ i know you're waiting on the other side ♪ ♪ i'm like you on-demand glucose monitoring. because they're always on. another life-changing technology from abbott. so you don't wait for life. you live it. i don't want to end up in the supreme court and i don't want to go back to congress either. even though we have an advantage if we go back to congress. does everyone understand that? >> so i've been working on this for a while, on every almost scheme he may have to steal the election. >> house speaker, nancy pelosi, has to be ready for anything, including the once in a century possibility that trump suggested there at a rally. house of representatives is

called on to settle the presidential election. if neither trump or biden wins the electoral college outright, the decision could be thrown to the newly elected house where each state delegation gets a single vote and while democrats do indeed control house, they're outnumbered, at least right now, when it comes to state delegations. it adds another level of urgency for speaker pelosi, who would need to gain seats. eddie and errin are still here. i talked about michael pushing out my brain in the way i think about these things. donald trump forces democrats and the biden campaign to do so every day with his different snare yoes for stealing the election. >> right. right. so, this quickly, in terms of the debate, he's desperate. going to come out like a wild boxer. it's important for vice president biden not to lose his calm to be dleliberate, methodical, keep tacking him and he'll wind up trying to bite his ear off. but any way, but in terms of

this, we need to understand this point. in relation to the three ds. and this is what i'm calling the three ds. we're dealing with the reality of death. covid-19. and how he's bungled that. we're dealing with the revelation of debt. and how he's leveraged. both yields desperation. we need to understand and speaker pelosi speaking, you could hear the urgency in her tone, that this man is desperate. that the republicans are desperate and they are going to do everything within their power to hold on to power. even if it means destroying democracy. they're going to take advantage of the democratic process in order to undermine it. we need to understand them for who they are and name them as such. >> you know, errin, maybe two years ago, it might have sounded like a farfetched you know break glass in case scenario, but what donald trump projects isn't too

far from what eddie just outlined. >> yeah and you see the president continuing at his rallies in press briefings, to raise uncertainty about the results of the election, which has why you hear joe biden continuing to say that this election needs to be a mandate, right, as opposed to won on the margins that could possibly be left open to question and so i think that that in addition to the voter protection efforts that the biden campaign is trying to use to push back against whatever tactics the president may and the campaign may employ between now and election day are part of what they see as the solution, but really trying run up the score even against what they know is going to be voter suppression, coupled with the challenges of casting a ballot in the pandemic are very real. it is uncertain again now effective a counterweight stories like this "new york

times" tax story even though we know that there are more coming, how much of a counterweight is that really going to be to 15 seasons of the apprentice and four years of this presidency for the people that support president trump. >> you know, she's on to an interesting point, eddie. i think we've paid too much attention to the trump voter and not enough attention to the trump coalition. the trump coalition that led him to an electoral victory four years ago is not the same as the trump voter who can't be repelled by anything. if it were, he wouldn't be eight to ten points down in every national poll. where do you think the true state of the race is, eddie? >> i don't know. you know, trump sits in the sweet spot of greed and selfishness and racism. that's his comfort zone. so you have folks who are out there greedy, nicole, who were only concerned about their well being, who will vote for them. they're not the ones who are screaming ugly, nasty things. so it's precisely that coalition. that leads me to, like michael

steele and e errin, to be doubtful about the numbers we see and this is what's really important about the ground game. i know we're in covid-19. but it's important that the democratic party and this machine that we get, we turn folk out. that folk turn out to vote at the largest, and i know people are probably going to go on twitter to say you were talking about turning out to vote? yes, i am and i think this is really important because we don't know what that coalition will look like and how it will be activated. greed and selfishness joins with racism. that's where donald trump sits and thrives. >> eddie, errin, spitting truth today. thank you both so much for doing so. we're grateful to you. when we return, troubling signs that the coronavirus is coming back in some of the places that were hit the hardest and new concerns from the drirector of the cdc about the medical advice donald trump is getting from one of his advicers. deadline white house continues after a quick break.

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we'd be remiss to wonderf i every one of joe biden's attack lines on the debate stage tomorrow night shouldn't circle back to donald trump's negligent handling of the pandemic. more than 206,000 americans have now lost their lives to the coronavirus pandemic as trump pursued a strategy of playing it

down in his own words. now, rising infection rates in 26 states are raising fears of a essential national wave this fall. now this, another sign that science is not what's leading trump's response. we've confirmed that robert redfield is voicing his alarm about the misleading data that scott atlas is arm aing donald trump with, telling a colleague over the phone, quote, everything he says is false. joining our conversation is health policy expert and nbc news medical contributor, dr. gupta. i don't know if it's reassuring or depressing that the head of the cdc has to deal with the propagandas and conspiracy theorists inside the coronavirus task force, but i wonner what you think about this conversation that nbc is reporting on where dr. redfield describes mr. atlas as such. >> good afternoon. i'm sure he's just tired because dr. atlas has been wrong at

every turn. about a month of having to deal with him at the white house podium. let's see what he said. he said children cannot transmit this disease. covid-19, as effectively as duts. that's wrong. we now have data suggesting that children can easily transfer it as well if not better than adults. that's number one. number two, this myth that young adults can't end up in the icu and see me. turns out if you're infected as a young adult in covid-19, it's the same risk of ending up in the icu. so again, misnation. information. talking about herd immunity, with no empathy. now we have great evidence from our own cdc suggesting that these spikes in the 20 to 29-year-old age bracket are proceeded by a surge in cases among those who are 60 to 69 years old. so you can't engage in herd immunity and think you can -- off the elderly without being at

risk, which is why i'm sure he's seeing people turn on him. >> and we should point out in defense of mr. redfield, the man he's talking about, mr. atlas, said this about masks, there's no sound science, on vaccines, he contradicted tony fauci and director headfield and he is someone who has no experience, no background in infectious diseases. but that's that. i want to know what con vversatn about the pandemic in tomorrow night's debate best serves the voting public from you. >> well i think what i hope what you'll hear from former vice president biden is a return to science and perhaps elevating individuals into potentially his future administration that will focus on the facts because americans want to hear them. if i may, nicole, can i share a few facts here because i'm g getting questions all the time.

>> please. >> from individuals craving guidance. fantastic. so number one, you know, i show the n-95 mask a lot here, but you don't hear from our surgeon general, what if you can't access an n-95 mask because this is the best fitting, most protective mask against covid-19. well, it turns out thatere's something called a three layer surgical mas a k. this is the kind of mask that the usps or something like it is going to be mass distributed to every household across the country. five masks per every american household. the trump administration put a nix on that because this is deemed to be pretty darn effective. what we know doesn't work are bandanna masks or the neck goiter. doesn't work. they're too thin. that's one. two, a big question i get is flu shots. when should you get one? the cdc has not bespecific been specific enough. they say the end of october. takes about two weeks to work. get it now. for parents wondering about

halloween. go for a skav gjere hunt at home. carve pumpkins. do a consume contest, but don't trick or treat, it's too difficult. going to have to sanitize every candy in and of itself and finally, the senate is debating theact. the hero's act would provide home caregiver s the needed compensation and sick pay leave that they need. we don't talk about this enough. our health care system from a human personnel system is the weakest it's ever been. a lot of people have been furloughed and fired, and we need that more than ever. but i hope the senate will act on the hero's about to get the right people back in place at work providing care for americans. >> tony fauci has said we need to get our number of new infections down to 10,000 a day

before fall. we're still far away from that. what are your concerns as the fall is upon us? >> well, what i'm seeing is that 40,000 new case rates a day, deaths remaining at about 1,000. here's my concern. with that type of burden, we're entering colder climates. we know respiratory path agaoge like to transmit themselves. i'm worried about those that come in with the flu or pneumonia and need a ventilator. my own institute for health metrics at the university of washington, they have modeled out, and modelling have pros and cons. but icu capability also be stretched yet again come january 1. so we need to be concerned and focus on policies that can help save american lives. >> it's such a good point. we haven't been here in a winter season yet. dr. gupta, thank you for talking

us through all of this. thank you for your facts. when we return, we will pay tribute to lives well lived. e t. let me tell you something,

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generous soul with a gorgeous singing voice, who died after a fight with the coronavirus. well, now we'll show you a new face. this is debbie's mom, shirley. on the very same day her daughter passed away, shirley tested positive for the disease. and this past weekend, coronavirus took her, too. she was only 57 years old. shirley, like her daughter, was described as an angel on earth. she was an award winning department chair for nursing at midland's technical college in columbia, south carolina. her co-workers told the nbc station there that shirley somehow found more than 24 hours in one day, and that she used all of them to make the world a better place. so tragically, for a second time in the span of three weeks, we're asking you to keep the banister family in your thoughts, particularly dennis banister who has lost a loving wife and a beautiful daughter in the same month.

we'll be right back. month we'll be right back. i'm a conservative,

want conservative judges on the court. this may make you feel better, but i really don't care. if an opening comes in the last year of president trump's term and the primary process has started we'll wait to the next election. i want you to use my words against me. you're on the record. yeah, hold the tape. lindsey must go and the lincoln project are responsible for the content of this ad. staying at home is more important than ever, especially if you have a chronic illness or just got out of the hospital. kindred at home can come to you. with the help of our skilled, compassionate clinicians, you can learn to manage your illness or regain your strength in the privacy of home. we take every precaution to protect you so your home can be both a comfortable place and a safe place to get the care you need. kindred at home. go online or call the number on your screen.

thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're always grateful. settle in now because "the beat" starts right now. hi there. >> hey, nicolle, thank you very much. welcome to "the beat," everyone. i'm in for ari melber this hour. we have a big show with that "new york times" bombshell on trump's taxes, opening new questions about possible fraud, tax evasion, bankruptcy, and a whole lot more. dropping just ahead of the first presidential debate. tonight, i have a special interview with someone who actually has tangled with trump on the debate stage. also, former obama act solicitor general, the fight over the supreme court, and whole lot more. and a former trump organization executive on the uproar as his tax secrets are now exposed.

and that is where we begin