that president trump has injected into the presidency and into congress spread to the united states supreme court. >> all right. that does it for me. ari will be back here tomorrow night at 6:00 p.m. eastern. a reminder for tonight, democratic vice presidential nominee kamala harris will join my colleague lawrence o'donnell at 10:00 p.m. eastern. you do not want to miss that. and of course you can catch me back here tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. eastern. "the reidout" with my friend joy reid starts right now. ♪ donald trump is the greatest con man in america. and the foundational myth of his entire political career was evident from the moment he announced his run for the presidency, descending from an elevator in his gilded tower, promising to build a wall and strengthen our military, saying

he'd make america not just great again but also rich again. we now have confirmation that not only was trump's richey rich act a scam, but he's actually been living on credit and drowning in debt the whole time. while pretending to be the world's greatest businessman. what wealth he did have, he withheld from our troops, our roads, our bridges, federal law enforcement, and more because trump is the ultimate tax dodger. living in public housing at 1600 black lives matter plaza while not chipping in to pay for anything that your taxes fund. through blockbuster reporting from the "new york times" examining 20 years of trump tax returns, we have learned that the self-proclaimed billionaire paid a grand total of $750 in federal income taxes in 2016, the year that he won the presidency. and another 750 bucks for his first year in office.

he had paid no income taxes at all, zero, in ten of the previous 15 years. it's the most comprehensive look into donald trump's personal finances that we've seen, which is probably why he and his eldest fail son are screaming, fake news. trump today tweeted that he paid many millions of dollars of taxes but was entitled like everyone else to depreciation and tax credits. trump made a big point of noting that he donates his presidential salary, which wouldn't even cover 1% of his likely actual tax liability. and that 750 bucks, it isn't just a fraction of what you probably paid in taxes. it's a fraction of what every single one of his predecessors paid their first year in office. compared to the nearly $1.8 million president barack obama paid in 2009. now i should note that nbc news has not seen these documents

reviewed by "the times" but the report goes further in exposing trump's biggest lie, that he's a big successful businessman. in fact, he's been a failure his entire career. and that's why he's gone to such great lengths to conceal his tax returns. "the times" reports that also hanging over him is a decade-long audit battle with the internal revenue service over the legitimacy of a $72.9 million tax refund that he claimed and received after declaring huge losses. meanwhile, his financial outlook could get even worse. quote, he is personally responsible for loans and other debts totaling $421 million with most of it coming due within four years. so much for mr. art of the deal. not only is trump an overleveraged con artist. "the times" also strikes at the core of why his ruse is so dangerous. his potential conflicts of

interest. t"the times" notes his propertis have become bazaars for collecting money directly from lobbyists, seeking access to time or favor. "the times" says it plans to release more information about his taxes in the coming days and weeks. and joining me now is michael cohen, donald trump's one-time personal attorney, host of the mia culpa and author of the new tell-all memoir "disloyal," a "new york times" best seller, i should note. >> always good to see you, joy. >> always great to have you back on. and i want to wish you a happy yom kippur because i know that is why you are on the phone with us. thank you for taking the time on an important day. you testified in february of 2019 that you said that when telling me in 2008 or 2009 that he was cutting employee

salaries, including mine, that trump showed you what he claimed was a $10 million irs refund and he couldn't believe how stupid the government was in giving him that refund. do you believe that throughout the time that you were working for donald trump he was cheating about his taxes and lying on his taxes? >> so, joy, let me start with what i know and to which i testified before the house oversight committee in february 2019. what i stated was that trump fraudulently inflated the value of his properties in order to receive favorable terms from lenders only then to underreport their value for tax purposes. basically what i did is i called him our liar in chief that everything he says is a conflation of the truth. and i finalized by saying that the valuation of donald trump's assets is so disproportionate to their real worth that we have no idea the true valuation of anything that he owns.

i mean, it's gaslighting to the extreme. trump has lied for so long about literally every facet of his life that the real truth is, according to the "new york times," it's shocking. >> yeah. and you're a lawyer. when you look at the levering of the assets, as you said. so you don't really know what they're worth, but they go up in value when he wants to claim insurance on them and when he wants to sell banks on saying he's a good risk. they go down in value when it's time to file his taxes. do you believe that in addition to potential tax fraud that donald trump has committed potential insurance fraud? >> absolutely. i talked about that as well. i provided information with that to the house oversight, both the senate and the house select committees on intelligence. it is what it is. but one of the things that i also testified that i wanted to state was that now i call him our commander in cheat. trump is compromised to the

core. the man has literally spent his entire business career inflating his net worth. it's not just inflating it for tax purposes. it's also to feed his ego. and that's an insatiable need. it's all to feed his self-worth. >> because he wants people to think he's a billionaire. we know that the "new york times" -- >> i talk about had i throughout the book "disloyal." and i talk about it on m on mea culpa. it's all about his ego and he's willing to jeopardize it in the united states. >> we know that the "new york times" reports that he's got $421 million in loans and debts that he could face foreclosure on some of his properties. should they win re-election, these companies would have to decide whether to foreclose on the president of the united states if he wins. trump's private records show

that his company once paid $747,622 in fees to an unnamed consultant for hotel projects in hawaii and vancouver, british columbia. ivanka's forms showed she had received an identical amount through a consulting company she coowned. this is someone who trump reportedly thought about making his runningmate in 2016, that he wanted to maybe have ivanka as his running mate. >> you do have to laugh. honestly, joy, you have to laugh at the sheer stupidity of that. never in history before has anything this ridiculous ever been proposed. i truly believe that what we're seeing right now is the beginning of the end for donald trump. it's not just now about his taxes, but we've seen the racist language, we've seen the horrible handling of covid-19. we're beginning to see this

house of cards crumble before our eyes. and as you just stated in regard to ivanka trump, let me tell you what this is all about. this is all about basically taking money from the individuals that he was partners with. these were all licensing deals. and what they did is they had ivanka or they created this company, maybe didn't tell the financial partners. they then brought this company in as a consultant. in ivanka's case, it was probably for her ivanka spa or maybe doing the furnishings inside the units or in the lobby hallways. i don't know specifically what it's for. but whatever it is, i certainly hope that that money was disclosed to the financial partners. you see, all three of those

properties that you just referred, hawaii, vancouver, et cetera, those are all licensing deals. and in licensing deals, donald trump only takes money out of the deals. he does not invest a single penny of his own money into it. and so being that he's incentivized to grab as much as he can, there's no doubt in my mind that the partners probably did not know that they were paying ivanka trump three-quarters of a million dollars or about 250,000 for each of the projects. >> wow. michael cohen, thank you so much for your time. really illuminating. always appreciate you as always. >> you're very welcome, joy. have a great evening. >> and i'm joined now by the co-author of "trump's the art of the deal." what do you make about trump not only apparently lied on his wealth, lied on his taxes allegedly but also involved his favorite, involved ivanka trump

in the scheme and put her in potential jeopardy legally? >> well, donald trump, we know, doesn't care about anybody but donald trump. that includes ivanka ultimately. in other words, if it's about his advancing his own interests versus hurting her interests, he will surely choose advancing his own interests. it's funny that michael cohen just referred to trump as the commander in cheat because there's a wonderful quote that it really explains all this from rick riley's book, which was actually called "commander in cheat." and it's how golf explains trump. and he says trump doesn't cheat in golf, he cheats like a three-card monte dealer. he throws it, boots it, and moves it. he lies about his lies. he fudges and foozles and fluffs. and it's the exact same thing with his taxes. he doesn't just cheat. he is an epic cheater. >> and not only that but the

hypocrisy is just endless. this is a guy who criticized president obama saying, oh, he only pays 20.5% on $790,000 salary. knowing he's not paying at all, i believe that's a 2012 tweet who knows if he paid any taxes that year. he's also been vicious toward immigrants, particularly undocumented immigrants and trying to build a wall to keep the brown people out. we know that he used undocumented polish labor to build trump tower, one of the few things he actually owns. but here this was tweeted. an undocumented woman who said trump organization knew she was undocumented and still employed her, showing that she had paid more income tax than trump did. and we know that collectively undocumented immigrants have paid far more than donald trump has in maybe 20 years. so, the hypocrisy, i guess, is almost as bad as the cheating. >> well, look, trump lives

inside a bubble that's almost unimaginable. he genuinely believes that he is not subject to the same rules that anybody else is. and when he worries even without being conscious of it that he's done something wrong, he almost always projects that onto someone else. you go on his twitter feed and read it, and all of the critical things he says, imagine as being statements just about himself. and there you will get what trump actually thinks about himself. so, listen, it's late in the game to be complaining about trump being hypocritical or about trump being a breaker of the law. really, i'm starting to think most, even in all my worry about trump's being re-elected about what it's going to take for the nation to heal. i sure hope we're going to be talking about that going forward. >> well, the other thing, though, is that the donald trump saga, whether he wins or loses, seems likely to continue, tony. we're either going to be talking about a president fighting off

foreclosure on properties that have failed because he has mismanaged them and maybe $300 million of debt coming due to who knows who. we're talking about potential national security risks and we're talking about maybe other sanctions. so even if he gets re-elected, it's not like it's going to end. he can't end this conversation. and if he loses, the whole narrative of trump be that he's a business failure, a tax cheat and a liar who really wasn't really that rich. and i think, you know, you can talk about this. it's very important to him that people think he's really, really rich. it turns out he's not. he's just broke. >> look, it's important to him that people feel he's rich, but it's even more important to him that he doesn't spend the rest of his life in prison. that's the biggest issue for him in not being re-elected. we're stuck with trump being part of our consciousness, whether he wins or loses. but i really do feel like this is an inflexion point in that the possibility of getting

beyond, not for the 30% of trump's supporters who are just part of a cult and wouldn't mind if he shot people on fifth avenue. but for the rest of the population, i think there's an opportunity and a hunger to find common ground where we haven't before. the effect on our national psyche, the degree to which he has lowered what is acceptable, what is considered good character, for all of the country, for his supporters but also for his critics who are part of this trauma, is just really the most terrifying -- not terrifying but horrifying part of this. >> indeed. tony schwartz, thank you so much. always great to talk with you. and up next on "the reidout," you take a look at your federal tax return from 2017. just take a look at it. now go all the way down to line 63 where it says total tax.

that's how much you paid. now, compare that number to donald trump. he reportedly paid $750. how is that going to play in youngstown, ohio, and other communities where hardworking people play by the rules? senator sharod brown will be here to discuss. plus, after a month of trump scandals that would have sunk any other president, remember the quaint obama days when the tan suit was considered scandalous? >> he should be addressing the country on such a serious matter and he looked like he was on his way to a party at the hamptons and i thought the suit was a metaphor for his lack of seriousness. >> a tan suit, a scandal! [ laughter ] "the reidout" continues after this. is. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are getting clearer, yeah i feel free ♪ ♪ to bare my skin ♪ yeah that's all me. ♪ nothing and me go hand in hand ♪ ♪ nothing on my skin ♪ that's my new plan.

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when you're donald trump or his children, the dignity of hard work is a foreign concept. they've inherited most of what

they have, the fact that trump paid no federal income taxes in ten out of 15 years or that his daughter was a willing participant in the scheme should come as no surprise. to put this in context, trump, during the first year of his term, was paying only $750 in taxes. meanwhile, nurses, teachers, and firefighters are paying nearly 20 times more. for more, i'm joined by senator sherrod brown, democrat from ohio. and, senator brown, cory bush, newly elected to congress, tweeted something that i think was very poignant. she tweeted i've lived paycheck to paycheck. when i couldn't pay rent, i was evicted. when i had covid-19, i fell into medical debt. when i couldn't afford my taxes, my nursing license was suspended. trump didn't pay taxes but he gets free housing, health care, and the presidency. i wonder how this story is resonating in your state with

working-class voters. >> i think it's one more thing on top of trump's disrespect for work, disrespect for members of the military, especially those who die. what really jumped out at me is i pay a good bit of attention to tax issues. and one of the things that a teacher can deduct only up to $250 on his or her school supplies if you buy school supplies for your student. they can only deduct up to $250. and donald trump deducted $70,000 for doing his hair. and that's just one of the injustices that i think really grade on people that people work really hard on this country, and increasingly people don't have much to show for it. and trump so betrays workers. and while most people understand the dignity of work, it really is such a clear contrast, even more than it was the day before yesterday. >> you mentioned the hair thing.

there was a tweet. it was kind of humorous, showed an image of donald trump's hair after noting that he deducted $70,000. it's a funny tweet, but, the reality is, look, i'm on tv, i don't have 70,000 worth of hair stuff to deduct on my taxes. i don't know if you as a public servant, are you deducting tens of thousands of dollars for hairstyling? your hair looks very fetching. >> this hair, are you kidding, joy? [ laughter ] >> i think it looks great. >> it really does -- it just increasingly grades on people that he lives under no rules and the rest of us in the country live under rules that push back when you violate the rules and the norms. and this president doesn't think he has to, of course. >> i'm looking at the current unemployment rate in ohio is 9%. donald trump brags about building the greatest economy on earth. 9% is damn near one in ten ohioans who would like to be

working or not. you have this covid crisis that's devastating states and devastating people all over the country. i think the thing that struck me the most about this "new york times" piece is the idea that somebody of donald trump's supposed wealth has not been chipping in, has not been helping to pay for the military. and i know there are lots of people who serve and who are veterans in ohio, has not been chipping in to pay for ohio roads, to pay for the school systems, the things that the federal -- our federal taxes pay for that stuff. he's basically been exempting himself from chipping into anything. and yet he's the one who claims that he owns patriotism and he loves the country and he loves the military. that is grading to me. >> he isn't chipping in. and they were happy to kill the $600 a week in my state, 600,000 ohioans who can't find jobs. as you say, the unemployment rate, i think it's at least 9%. i think it's probably higher,

people give up all the rules about counting unemployed -- the numbers about employed. but the president and mcconnell simply took away in august $600 a week that the study show kept 12 million americans out of poverty. so, 600,000 ohioans, first of all just lost $600 a week. what are they going to do? they are not protected from eviction particularly well. their schools aren't opened safely because mcconnell can't find his way. he doesn't see the urgency in putting money into public education. only the wealthy -- in ohio it's mostly the wealthy suburban schools that can open for person-to-person business. most children are in school districts where it's remote learning and you can't learn remotely as well as you can in person. we all know that. local governments are ignored, small businesses. and he doesn't pay taxes and he doesn't seem to think we should help those workers. the most grading thing of all is on the senate floor and to hear

millionaire senators saying that's $600 a week, that's just too much. shouldn't be giving people that money. i mean, it's incredible. >> it is incredible. even on the subject of what he's been able to get away with. and i think the other thing that's shocking is that bank after bank after bake knowing his track record, knowing his failures, knowing he didn't pay back the last bank, that's the ultimate privilege. you just keep getting more money and not be taken down by the irs. meanwhile, propublica has a piece talking about the fact that the places where there are the most audits are in poor, rural, and particularly for the black poor, that they are much more likely to be audited and congress has asked the irs to report on why it audits the poor more than the affluent. and its response from the irs has been that it doesn't have enough money and people to audit the wealthy properly. so it audits the poor. so if donald trump were a poor person or a person of color, he'd likely have been audited and maybe in jail.

>> i am so glad you brought that up. because we've had those discussions where if you're eligible for an income tax cut you're making $30,000 a year, you're eligible for the child tax credit, it can mean several thousand dollars in your pockets. and to hear privileged members of the senate just whine about these tax breaks, these tax refunds, they're refundable tax credits that low-income people get and they have continued to push the irs to audit them more aggressively if they can find $100 that somebody probably accidently. they don't really ever say people are trying to do this, they're filling out their tax returns. they make some mistakes, they are audited so insidduously, so aggressively but people like donald trump aren't. one audit, you audit somebody like donald trump, you're going to get that $72 million that he owes the irs. you've got a lot of earned

income tax credit filings. >> people are paying that extra $39 on turbo tax because they're afraid if they get audited they need some help and they don't have million dollar lawyers like donald trump does. i want to play quickly kamala harris. she spoke with my colleague about another aspect of these tax returns. take a listen. [ no audio ] oh, okay. that audio is not working. but she said this is why the american people deserve to have a full accounting of the financial interest including the indebtedness of the president of the united states. she says she shares in this concern who does he owe the money to? who does he owe the money to? and who do you owe debt to any foreign nation? are you concerned about the national security implications of donald trump being in hoc for more than $420, a lot of people

who have no idea who it's to. >> spiraling down in his finances and almost griff their own campaign contributors so they have the lifestyle they want. of course it's a threat to us. and i think it's important, joy, to look at who pays here. in ohio we have a speaker of the house that has been indicted, republican speaker. he's still in the legislature. they haven't expelled him but for $60 million bribe from the electric company. you know what happens? to pay that $60 million bribe to him and his republican cronies, people's electric bills go up. so, when people like trump gain the system somebody's got to pay for it so other people can survive or it means cuts in our public health budget, cuts in our public education budget, cuts in highways and all in clean water and all the things we care about. so it's not just trump

stealing -- essentially stealing money. it's also about who gets hurt, whom he's stealing it from and it's really from a bunch of middle-class and low-income people he's stealing it. >> much like the wall ended up getting paid for by the american taxpayer, not mexico. i put cori bush in congress already. she still has to win the general election. she won the primary. so i just projected her forward. speak it into existence is what i say. thank you so much, senator sherrod brown. appreciate you very much. still ahead on "the reidout," this month has seen a series of scandals that would have sunk a normal presidency, but it's just business as usual in trump world. that's next. stay with us. what if i sleep hot? ...or cold? introducing the new sleep number 360 smart bed. now temperature balancing, so you can sleep better together. save up to $1,000 on the new sleep number 360 smart bed and adjustable base. plus, 0% interest for 24 months & free delivery. ends monday.

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remember when it was just an october surprise? well, that was before donald trump applied a wrecking ball to

american politics. so instead of one singular surprise which happens sometime next month, we got a nonstop avalanche of controversies that would have tanked any other person's political ambitions for good. like when he told americans to vote twice, which is illegal, only for us to learn the very next day from "the atlantic" that trump had characterized americans who had died in war as losers and suckers resulting in the white house playing cleanup duty for days until "the washington post" revealed audiotapes of trump admitting this to bob woodward. >> this is deadly stuff. i wanted to always play it down. i still like playing it down. >> yes. >> because i don't want to create a panic. >> trump's deliberate deception along with his string of super spreader rallies came the same month the united states reached 7 million coronavirus cases and 200,000 deaths. and still that didn't pump the brakes on trump's next

controversy when he refused to abide by that little democracy thing. >> will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferral of power after the election? >> we're going to have to see what happens. >> which all brings us to today's big headline, that trump's gilded billionaire tycoon bit is all a sham. the question is will any of this break through? tomorrow donald trump and joe biden square off on stage for the first time. trump is of course throwing out increasingly desperate attacks against biden because that's what he does. but the polls show it's trump that has the most to prove. and that is next. ♪ woo! - go ♪

go go go ♪ go go go go on a real vacation. visit go rving.com or your nearest rv dealer. want conservative judges on i'the court.vative, this may make you feel better, but i really don't care. if an opening comes in the last year of president trump's term and the primary process has started we'll wait to the next election. i want you to use my words against me. you're on the record. yeah, hold the tape. lindsey must go and the lincoln project are responsible for the content of this ad.

and raise property taxes w$11 billion a year? small businesses get saddled with big tax bills they can't pay. they're forced to cut jobs. or, pass on higher costs to consumers. that means we pay more for everything like gas, food, utilities and health care. and the cost of living in california gets even more expensive.

now is the wrong time to raise taxes on californians. vote no on prop. 15. ms. williams: we've been working hard... ms. robinson: ...to make learning fun again. ms. duncan: and making sure our students can succeed. ms. zamora: we're with you every step of the way. ms. robinson: i know it's a challenging time. ms. zamora: no one wants to be back in the classroom more than teachers. ms. williams: we have missed you so much. mr. hardesty: but we all have to be safe. ms. robinson: because we're all in this together. narrator: making our school buildings safer. ms. robinson: working together, we can make it a great year. narrator: because the california teachers association knows quality public schools make a better california for all of us. trump's tax returns are a treasure trove for his potential criminality which explains why he's so desperate to get that second presidential term on lock. but he faces an uphill climb. a new poll from the "new york

times" and siena college is showing biden leading trump by eight points with the democratic nominee also leading in battleground states. biden is up by eight points in michigan and winning by a whopping ten points in wisconsin and leading trump 49 to 40% in pennsylvania. joining me is republican strategist and adviser to the lincoln project. i appreciate you guys being here. pennsylvania is the state that republicans and trump seems to care the most about, at least at present. and so i'll ask you first, susan, how does this story play in places like pittsburg, in places like philadelphia, this revelation that donald trump isn't chipping in to pay for the military and to pay for anything because he's been cheating on his taxes for ten out of 15 years? >> we can almost say this in anything. the people that are with trump are with him. at the lincoln project we're

going after that -- that may have voted for him in 2016. and now see his record and know that he is just incapable of being a decent person or president, for that matter. so, i think what we're seeing and how it'll affect them, i think it's a cumulative effect. it's one thing after the other that just verifies that this man cannot be trusted. he's a cheat. he's a horrible businessman. and he has no idea how to run a company. >> cornell, trump, still for whatever reason, leads on the economy. but i think part of that is from "the apprentice" where people think he's a businessman, he must know what he's doing. now that people know he's a terrible businessman, i wonder if that makes a difference. everybody who voted for barack obama in 2008 and 2012 also voted for biden. all the things about him are baked into those two votes. i want to play joe biden talking

about his, giving his scranton message. this was on cnn. >> it's the latest reminder how clear the choice is here between in this race between park avenue and scranton. you have in donald trump a president who spends his time thinking about how he can work his way out of paying taxes of meeting the object deviatiligat. with joe biden you have somebody who has a completely different perspective on what it means to be a working family in this country. >> now that clearly is not joe biden. that was kate bedingfield. [ laughter ] his spokeswoman. but the point still stands, does this story just reinforce the fact that biden is the working class white guy and trump is the park avenue cheat? >> i think it certainly sort of helps lock in that narrative. but going back to your earlier point about the economy, look, democrats never have the advantage over republicans on

the question of dealing with economy. do you think barack obama who won two back-to-back majorities had advantage over mitt romney in the economy? no, we didn't. we had a pretty sizeable disadvantage. however, when it came to the question of whether or not somebody is going to fight for a economy that works for you, we made the conversation about who in fact's going to fight most for the middle class, not who's going to build an economy that's going to work for all the rich people. so, i think if joe biden sort of keeps his focus on working more for working class people, he's on safe ground. >> let me play a couple of voters, the great ali velshi. here are a couple of voters that he spoke to. let's start with gayle, a colorado voter. >> here we are faced with this man who is supposedly in charge

of our nation supposed to be setting a good example who brags about, has bragged for a long time about not paying any taxes. and now it's been revealed that he paid all of $750 in taxes the first year of his presidency. my husband and i pay 35 times that amount after our deductions. >> noting first of all that the $750 is memorable and that's a bad thing for trump. it's memorable and that she herself paid 35 times that amount after our deduction. that means it's a fairness issue. now let's play leann wheeler, another colorado voter and u.s. airforce veteran. >> i think there will also be some in the military who may change their opinion of him, given that tax dollars in fact fund our national defense. if that does not offend some of those who would vote for him who serve this country, then i'm going to have to have some conversation with some folks. >> susan, if you are still a republican strategist, what

would be your reaction to those two women? because that seems dangerous for trump. >> that is very dangerous for trump. and the fact that you mentioned two women who are giving that message is very dangerous for trump. because women are the keepers of the pocketbook when it comes to the economies of family. and they are watching every dollar. and that's why it's not just $750, it's the fact that their insurance premiums probably cost twice that much and they're aware of it and they don't get to deduct that. there are so many issues that will be affecting middle class families. and the disregard that trump has for them. look, i'm a republican. i like lower taxes. i hate taxes. and i think that's what it comes down to. and don't forget this. if donald trump is feeding on his taxes, if he cheated on his spouse, he will cheat america. >> what do you think biden should focus on? because there seems to be a really rich environment for him between the $750, which everyone

can relate to that because everybody has paid more than that. people wish they could get $750 back from turbo tax or whatever or h&r block and they're lucky if they get that back. and then you've got the idea that donald trump, while not chipping in, is trying to take away 20 million people's health care using the supreme court as a way to snatch health care away from people. where should biden go if you are advising team biden on what he should do tomorrow? >> you know, it's a target-rich environment. it's kind of overwhelming. but that's i think the point of trump and a lot of the ridiculous things that he does, tries to overwhelm the space. i think biden should stick to a couple of attack lines that has to deal with fighting for working class people. but also, you know, joy, i got to tell you, at this point, i think biden has to make it about

what he's going to do to turn this country around and change things and make things better and make it less about trump. so many times in 2016 i heard from these obama voters who sat out or voted third party and they said i wanted to hear more about hillary clinton and her plans, i didn't want to hear any more about trump. trump's bad. but what are you going to do for us? i think if i were advising team biden, that's what i would tell them to focus on. >> i will quote professor jason johnson again, it's not undecided between trump and biden. it's more undecided between vote and not vote. amen to that. susan, cornell and everybody better vote. up next, vote, vote, vote, it's very important. next up, the director of the cdc says he's alarmed by the false information that trump is getting from a senior member of the coronavirus task force, including the idea that herd immunity can resolve the pandemic. that remarkable discord now out in public is coming up next.

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how would you describe where we are as a nation right now? >> yeah. well, we're not in a good place. you don't want to be in a position like that as the weather starts getting cold. >> back in august, dr. anthony fauci said the u.s. needed to get its cases below 10,000 before fall to avoid, quote, a really bad situation. well, right now we're averaging more than 40,000 cases per day. and the messaging coming from the white house isn't helping. trump's own cdc director dr. robert redfield was over heard telling a colleague that task force member dr. scott atlas is arming trump with misleading data, including questioning the

efficacy of masks, whether young people are susceptible and herd immunity. he added everything he says is false. joining me is the former acting director of the cdc. thank you so much for being here, doctor. and let's talk through a few of these things. i have been thinking a lot about florida. i used to live there, and i see these videos of people herding into bars since the governor of that state re-opened bars. the tampa bay times reports that florida surpassed 700,000 cases as a state -- as the state enters its phase three reopening. desantis has removed all the restrictions. i think we have some video of people in these bars, which i would like you to look at as you answer these questions. if donald trump is getting bad information saying herd immunity will solve the virus and governors like desantis are acting on what seems like the

same idea, that just let people go wild, go into bars, be wherever they want and then suddenly that will solve it, how do we ever get out of this nightmare? how do we ever end this pandemic? >> yeah. i mean, this is a really dangerous situation. you know, joy, as you remember over the summer, we saw cases going up dramatically in florida, in texas, arizona and california and so much of that has been related to what young people have been doing, gathering together, really down playing the impact of this. and, so, if that's what's taking place in florida, if they're moving away from the measures that actually have worked in bringing down cases in those states, wearing masks, social distancing, keeping bars and restaurants closed for indoor activity, if they move away from that, it's logical what's going to happen. the cases are going to go up. and the thing about disease in young people, you know, while most young people will do relatively well with this, not

all with. there will been deaths -- a lot of deaths in young people as well. but young people don't keep the infection to young people. they spread it to older people. the cdc published good data on this. a week or so after you see the rise in young people, you see the rise in older people and older people are at greater risk of bad disease and dying. so if the president is getting advice from someone who is not a public health leader, who is not infectious disease expert and he's leading with that advice, the whole nation suffers. >> let me play dr. anthony fauci on the floor to reopening. >> what you make of florida's decision to ease those restrictions, opening up bars and restaurants. >> well, that is very concerning to me. i mean, we have always said that, myself and dr. deborah birx, the coordinator of the task force, that that is something we really need to be careful about because when you are dealing with community

spread and you have the kind of congregate setting where people get together, particularly without masks, you're really asking for trouble. >> when you're dealing with community spread and you have that kind of con yes gagre that kind of con yes gagrgate s, you are asking for trouble. whether it's colleges or elementary or high schools. atlanta, the atlanta journal of constitution noted that the state of georgia has been not telling parents, they have been withholding covid-19 counts from the public. georgia health officials have decided to hold information about coronavirus infections at school, saying the public has no legal right to information about outbreaks that the state is investigating. so when you add to the congregate settings, the governor let up and allowed them to put in mask orders if they want to. but in some of these schools, parents are sending their kids in or teachers are going in and they don't have any idea that anybody has coronavirus.

how dangerous is that? >> yeah. there needs to be transparency on this. and one of the things that we have been calling for as a foundation in a big way is data have to be collected and broken down by race, ethnicity, by zip code so you can see how this is playing out across different schools, in different school districts. we know that a lot of schools in america are funded off of property taxes, so wealthier schools are going to be able to do more to protect the students and staff and teachers than schools in lower-income communities. and we know that many of those communities have a higher proportion of black and brown children. what does it say about us as a country if we're not ensuring that all children are safe and staff and teachers are safe? and we're not getting this information across the board. it is something that has to happen. >> the midwest is seeing a surge in covid cases. do you worry that now any state that is very, very trumpy is going to have people that are going to be getting very, very sick? >> well, i worry. i worry a lot that when you have

any state and you have a significant number of people, whether it's 30% or more, who aren't wearing masks and social distancing and washing their hands for whatever reason, whether it's political or they don't believe it, everyone suffers from that. and not every community suffers equality. so we have to come together as a nation. what we're seeing in the midwest will happen everywhere. >> absolutely. thank you so much. i really appreciate you. before i go, tonight kamala harris joins lawrence o'donnell at 10:00 p.m. eastern, and it is on the occasion of his 10th anniversary of "the last word." you do not want to miss it and congratulations to lawrence and the entire team on this huge milestone. and tomorrow night is debate night. be sure to join me and my colleagues more complete coverage beginning at 8:00 p.m. eastern. the girls are getting back together. that's tonight's "reid out."

and also brian, too. it's the girls and then brian, okay? "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in," 36 days from election day, 24 hours from the first debate, and we finally know why donald trump is hiding his tax returns. tonight david k. johnson and adam davidson on whether this president is a tax cheat, an awful business person or both. former obama national security adviser on the danger of a president that is this exposed is. and stacey abrams on a full populus president that doesn't pay his taxes. and why the president tieing his supreme court pick to his toxic attack on american health care is a gift for democrats. when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. well, we've got the president's taxes. we have a lot of them, at least. i imagine if you are