good day. i'm andrea mitchell in washington, as president trump and joe biden prepare to square off at their first presidential debate in cleveland tonight in front of what is expected to be perhaps the biggest audience ever for a political showdown from around the country and the world. inside the debate hall, only about 80 people. the coronavirus is making this an intimate affair. no handshakes between the candidates. only a few selected covid-tested guests for what is expected to

be an assault by president trump, who has set a low bar for joe biden. is president trump underestimating biden? could the trump jamming backfire? joining me now, "weekend today" co-host peter alexander in cleveland. neera tanden from the center for american progress who helped joe biden prepare against his vice presidential debate against sarah palin. first, peter, what are you hearing from both campaigns as we get closer to tonight's big showdown? >> andrea, i want to take you into the room, very quickly, if i can, to give you a sense of what this room looks like. on the left, that's the lectern that president trump will use. the one on the right is for joe biden. they're flipping a coin which they've already done to determine that president trump will receive the first question as part of this 90-minute

debate. you made the point about coronavirus testing. that means no awkward elbow bump, no handshake at all, just 80 to 100 people in the room here. but to the politics of this evening, i've been speaking to some of the president's aides and those close to joe biden as well. from the president, they say he's going to try to sort of play the role, keep it steady, but look for him to go after joe biden on a series of topics including biden's son's business doings. a bipartisan senate committee found no wrongdoing by the former vice president. for biden, the focus will be, according to his aides, to try not to take the president's bait, to speak directly to the american voters and focus on key issues in their minds, not just the president's record but also the coronavirus pandemic. and andrea, one thing that's striking that sort of plays into that message from joe biden is

this very venue here on the campus of the cleveland clinic. this very room a matter of months ago hosted 300 beds for coronavirus patients. it ultimately did not need to be used. but it demonstrates how over the course of the last several months we've really seen this unprecedented time with more than 206,000 americans now dead, andrea. >> indeed, that grim, terrible toll. neera, the biden campaign says they're candidate is going to stay on message, not take the bait from president trump. but can joe biden really let it go? there will be perhaps dozens of attacks, misstatements. we know the president's way of going after biden. can he let all that go, just go and get past, does he risk getting bogged down in details? >> i do think that if you have watched donald trump before, you recognize that he wants to rattle his opponent and he tried that with hillary and he will

definitely try that tonight. i do think what's unique about this experience for joe biden, he's debated at this level before, is this is sort of unprecedented moment to speak directly to the american people. and so it's really an opportunity for people who don't know his plans to deal with the virus or what he'll do on the economy to speak very directly to that. i know that trump will try to, you know, bring joe biden down into a mud fight. but i think it's really incumbent on joe biden to recognize he's actually not talking to donald trump, and he is talking directly to the american people. >> you remember well the perils for incumbents, 2012, the debate of obama versus romney, made the race tighten. will it be enough for trump to

say, on this big issue that's unloaded on him in the last 48 hours, that he didn't pay any taxes for years and years and then only paid $750 the first year of his presidency and the year before, is it going to be enough for him to just say, i was smart not to pay taxes, as he said to hillary clinton, memorably, when he said that's probably why he didn't pay taxes when he was going bankrupt in atlantic city. >> what we know, andrea, about the president's approach when this comes to these sort of things, generally he doesn't spend a lot of time defending himself or trying to explain. he will probably say one very brief thing and move on. i'm reminded of, in 2012, when governor romney had to respond to the "47%" tape, you may remember that was a critical development in that campaign. and during debate prep we spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the right answer, what the right angles were, what the right pivots were. president trump doesn't approach

debate prep in that way. arguably the reporting suggests he hasn't done any prep. i think his strategy on this is going to be similar to the strategy we've seen with other scandals, other issues the president has faced, which is not say very much about it, look to deflect, look to attack. that's when he believes he's at his strength. and i would fully expect that same strategy to be executed upon tonight. >> he can always say fake news or a hoax, two favorite responses. neera, so many debates are about a singular moment or phrase. here are a few that we remembered. >> governor clinton, thank you. we have a question right here. >> yes, how has national debt personally affected each of your lives? >> for every dollar that i propose to spend on education, he spends $5 on a tax cut for the wealthiest 1%. those are very clear differences. >> governor? >> the man is practicing fuzzy math again. there is differences.

>> i'm going to fix it because i agree with you, premiums have gotten too high, co-pays, deductibles, prescription drug costs. i've laid out a series of actions that we can take to try to get those costs down. but here is what i don't want people to forget, when we're talking about reigning in the cost which has to be the highest priority of the next president. >> now, presumably donald trump is not going to loom over joe biden's shoulder, nor -- >> one benefit of covid. >> neera, what about that? >> i think that joe biden, who has done these debates before, who has debated sarah palin, who debated paul ryan, recognizes that he's on camera all the time. and his facial expressions and his responses, his body language, is pretty critical to this process. but i also think that with covid

and the maelstrom of news that donald trump breeds every day, this is a moment where joe biden can really connect to the people about what he's going to do to make their lives better. i think that's a real opportunity. it's also an opportunity to hold donald trump accountable for his failures, the fact that 200,000 people have died in this country from the coronavirus when so many fewer people have died in other countries. that's a real opportunity for biden. >> nera tanned en, lahnee chen, peter alexander, thanks all. joining me now, cindy mccain, a new member of joe biden's transition advisory board, and of course wife of republican presidential nominee from 2008 john mccain. cindy, congratulations, i understand there's a new

grandchild, making egan had a b. >> yes, liberty sage was born last night. >> and you're with us today, a beautiful name, i'm sure a beautiful baby from a beautiful mom. thanks for joining us. you have a unique understanding of how a candidate prepares for a presidential debate. do you think joe biden can let these attacks roll off his back? >> i think joe biden's purpose tonight is to talk directly to the american people and let them know where he stands on what he believes and where he feels he can lead this country if elected president. he's up against an opponent that has a very special relationship with the truth. so i think as long as he focuses on what is at stake here, and that's the american people, then i think he'll do well. we've all seen him in action, we know what he can do. he's a good debater.

and i believe he's going to be a good president. >> turning to obamacare, which is a centerpiece of joe biden's debate strategy and his campaign strategy, especially because its survival is about to be argued before the supreme court only days after the election, your husband memorably cast that thumbs down, his last vote, to stop president trump from repealing it. can you share what went into his thinking at such a critical moment in his career? >> well, the reason john cast the down vote for it is because there was no better plan at that point. the republicans just wanted to repeal it at the time and john did not feel that that was appropriate, since we had nothing to replace it with. we'll see what the supreme court says. i think whatever occurs in this campaign will be not just important but it's the opportunity for this newly-elected president biden to

right the ship. we're in a very difficult time right now and we need someone that's going to not only tell the american people the truth, but also remind the american people what's good, that this president has integrity, he has decency, he works together, we've all seen the way he worked with my husband on issues. he can compromise. he can do the things that are right for the country. and that's really what's at stake right now. >> you've spoken in the past about the president's -- that the president made to "the atlantic" calling american world war i casualties losers and suckers, years after attacking gold star families. how do you think that affects the voters? you're part of a legendary military family and a military mom as well. >> i think i can pretty well speak for the american families who have been a part of service

to our country. and that is, it's repulsive. these young men and women, many of them gave the ultimate sacrifice, are not losers or suckers. they are indeed heroes. that includes my own family but more importantly, the families of every other service member around. that to me just replicates and talks about a lack of understanding for what the military represents, and too with what every service member, not just in the military but in other service-oriented areas, are doing. it's a lack of empathy. it's a lack of kindness. it's also a lack of really understanding what this country is all about. >> i want to ask you about the politics of all of this.

you've shunned politics for so long. coming out for joe biden as a republican and how you think it might affect suburban women, many of whom might still, according to the people who we have out talking to them, are still looking at their 401(k)s, still think that donald trump according to the polling is ahead of joe biden on the economy which is a big issue. >> well, i think there's a lot of women, not necessarily suburban women but women in general, out there that may be on the fence and they're not really sure, you know, which way to go and perhaps are really studying both candidates. i think -- i hope what i do is give them the courage to perhaps step over the line and cast a vote for joe biden. i believe -- the reason i am here is because i want this country to be a better place. i want our elected representatives to be people that do have empathy and kindness and do care about the

american people. and i think hopefully i represent some of that and hopefully people will perhaps look at what i've done and maybe take the step forward and vote for joe biden. >> thanks again to you, the senate is at a critical turning point with a supreme court justice and there's a lot at stake here, the world seems to be turning upside down. we appreciate you coming and sharing your insights. again, congratulations on liberty sage, the beautiful new mccain. >> thank you. >> thanks to you. >> thank you. and reality bites. how "the apprentice" helped donald trump amass a fortune of millions but it still didn't get him out of financial free-fall. is it safe to send children back to school? new reporting from "the new york times" about how the white house pressured the cdc to soften its medical advice. former member of the white house task force olivia troye joining

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i was seriously in trouble. i was billions of dollars in debt. i used my brain. i used my negotiating skills and i worked it all out. ny mu company is bigger than it ever was and it's stronger than it ever was and i'm having more fun than i ever had. >> donald trump in 2004 launching "the apprentice" which gave him the reputation as a brilliant businessman on which he ran for president. in reality, according to "the new york times," the almost half a billion dollars he earned from the show rescued him from past financial ruin and he used that money to go on a buying spree of unprofitable golf properties using those losses to avoid paying taxes for years to come. also according to "the times," he's personally on the hook for $400 million of loans that come due in a few years. chuck rosenberg started his year as a federal prosecutor in the

criminal section of the tax division of doj. chuck, so good to see you. you are a tax expert. his tactics are so aggressive, from what we've read. what alarm bells would go off for investigators of possible fraud? we know that the manhattan d.a. is looking into this very thing. >> sure. not surprisingly, andrea. look, tax avoidance, minimizing your taxes are perfectly lawful. tax evasion is a crime, it's unlawful. the "new york times" reporting has been absolutely brilliant. what you can't tell, though, from the face of the reporting is whether it's lawful tax avoidance or unlawful tax evasion. frankly, it could be a little bit of both. there are things in the reports from "the new york times" that are deeply troubling. much of the president's wealth was built on his own branding, using his name attached to several in some cases shady enterprises including something called multilevel marketing

scheme, really a fancy way of saying a ponzi scheme. and he's in deep debt. as you pointed out, more than $400 million in loans coming due very shortly. so it appears to be a bit of a house of cards. again, maybe not illegal, but at best unseemly and perhaps illegal. >> and there's that $73 million tax refund that he claimed and received, starting a 2010 audit battle with the irs. he paid $750 in federal income tax, according to "the times," in 2016. households earning 30 to $40,000 a year paid $2,380 on average. that is a striking mismatch. >> absolutely, it is. now, again, it may be lawful. he had massive losses in earlier

years. irs rules, which are cumbersome and byzantine, to say the least, allow taxpayers to use those losses in previous years to offset income in subsequent years. but without getting all tax-y on you, here is the thing, andrea. the president has criticized the "new york times" reporting. he's called it a hoax, not surprisingly. but there's a really simple solution. he has said he cannot release his tax returns because they're under audit. that is a lie. let me be clear. that is a lie. there is nothing that prevents him from releasing his tax returns. if "the new york times" has it wrong, the president can show us why. he's failed to do so and he should be held to account for that. >> there are a lot of personal deductions that also seem strange, to say the least. $70,000 for hair color and his haircuts. the millions and millions in money to ivanka and the adult sons for consultant fees when

they were also officials within the trump enterprise. writing off those kinds of expenses as business expenses? >> right, a very aggressive use of deductions. again, there's a lawful way to do it, a legitimate business expense is deductible, there's no question about that. but when you're paying consulting fees, for instance, to your own child who is also on the management board of your own company, that seems to be improper. again, if you want to show that tax return is false and illegally so and intentionally so, you need all the underlying work papers, you need the profit and loss statements, you need the bank statements, and you need to talk to everyone who compiled the returns to know what they were told and what they understood and what directions they got perhaps from mr. trump. so on its face you can't tell if it's unlawful. but to your point, andrea, it looks awfully bad. >> chuck rosenberg, thank you so much. we really appreciate your expertise. and it's great to see you today.

new revelations also about how the white house tried to pressure the cdc on school reopenings. how a former aide to vice president pence tried to shield the agency and is now speaking out. olivia troye left the white house at the end of july and joins me next. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. "andrea mitchl reports" on msnbc. frustrated that clothes come out of the dryer wrinkled? next time try bounce wrinkle guard dryer sheets. the world's first mega sheet with 3x more wrinkle relaxers. look at the difference of these two shirts... the wrinkle guard shirt has less wrinkles and static, and more softness and freshness. to tame wrinkles on the go use bounce 3in1 rapid touch up spray. bounce out wrinkles with bounce wrinkle guard dryer sheets and touch up spray! both, with a money back guarantee.

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today as parents around the country are wrestling with whether in-classroom learning is safe for their kids, new reporting by "the new york times" today on white house pressure over the summer to get the cdc to play down the risks of sending their children back to school. a witness who was staffing the task force before she quit at the end of july over the overall handling of the pandemic is olivia troye, former homeland security and intelligence adviser to vice president pence. oliv olivia, it's good to see you again, thanks for being with us. this new reporting says you were repeatedly asked by marc short, the vice president's chief of staff, to pressure the cdc to produce charts and reports that showed a decline in covid among young people. you're quoted as saying you regret being complicit in that effort. describe what happened from your vantage point. >> hi, andrea, thank you for

having me on your show again. this is something that i faced and struggled with repeatedly in my tenure while serving on the covid task force for the vice president. this is something that went on behind the scenes. this is just actually one example of that type of situation where we were tasked internally to find additional data that played more in favor of the narrative of what the senior politicals in the white house and the president wanted to relay. in this specific instance, this had to do with fighting data that was displayed in a certain way that showed that perhaps people under the age of 18 were less susceptible to covid or, you know, were less likely to be at risk. unfortunately this played into the pressure on the cdc and these guidelines. and there is a whole effort behind the scenes that happened

to include people from omb and across other interagency players internally who weighed in on what the cdc was saying. it's something that's weighed on me still today because this is one of the most egregious things i saw happen firsthand and as a national security professional, that is just something that crosses a line. this is people's children, families. this is impacting people still today. >> and at one point, they went so far as to get the cdc to incorporate an hhs mental health study about the negative effects of staying at home, which everyone acknowledges is a reality, and actually deborah birx, who you admire, joined that effort. there is an email obtained by "the new york times" where dr. birx asks cdc director dr. redfield to include some of the guidance from that agency into the intro to their guidelines. and it actually took place. wasn't this wrong?

>> you know, i think this is another example of the task force doctors and experts facing political pressure inside the white house every single day and how this dynamic coming from the president from the very top was pitting these doctors constantly against each other, trying to navigate this dynamic on trying to do the right thing but figuring out how you survive in this environment when you know that if not you, if you don't get up and fight, then who? then you end up with somebody else who isn't willing to take a stand every now and then and you pick your battles. although i'm not privy directly to what happened in that conversation, unfortunately i don't have any insight on that specific communication, i can imagine that dr. birx was feeling extreme pressure probably from people within her own very office, which i saw her face firsthand. and i'm sure dr. redfield was on

the receiving end, struggling with it as well. i've gotten to know dr. birx personally. i have seen her struggle. i have seen her take some serious hits from within the white house. and my heart goes out to every single member of the task force who is still there. i know that it is still hard today. i have been there morally, personally, on a level that's still hard to talk about today. i know they are continuously struggling and trying to do the right thing while they constantly get this pressure and bullying from inside. until you're in the situation, it's very hard to really understand how hard it is when you know in the back of your head that americans' lives are at risk and this is continuing to happen. >> at one point, according to "the times," the white house prepared slides downplaying the virus' effects on children, boosting the importance of reopening schools, saying that children could not be infected

even though the president was well aware, told bob woodward he knew that young people could be affected. "the times" published the slides. we have one slide here saying children are unlikely to spread the virus unless they display covid-19 symptoms that the rate of infection among children and from students to teachers has been shown to be very low. the cdc obtained to this presentation and it never was made public. are you witness to the fact that there were attempts like this to distort the science and that there were times when the task force members did manage to push back? >> yes, absolutely. and i think unfortunately in this case, i mean, i would say strike one up, one win for the cdc for overcoming this effort. i saw this repeatedly on slides that were tailored to fit a certain narrative. and sometimes i saw people like dr. redfield or dr. birx and others on the task force,

including actually at times, you know, the task force leader himself, the vice president, where they were blindsided by slides or developments showing up that they could not necessarily have been on the same page with and had to push back on. so i am grateful that these slides actually never made it out. >> on the day that our report with you first aired, your first tv interview, marc short went on msnbc afterwards and said that you had a vendetta against president trump and that you left the white house because the strain was too much for you to do the job. i want to give you a chance to respond to that. >> you know, i know the truth and reality of the situation and what was happening behind the scenes. i know that i worked very long days and i stood by these task force members. i don't think that anybody inside the white house could say that i didn't do my job and do it well. i was very dedicated, unwaveringly, and at times, i mean, you know, to marc i would

say, you know the truth. i spent a lot of late nights. and there were times when i tried calling you at night and you wouldn't pick up the phone. and there were other task force members on the call with me, staying up until late at night trying to do the right thing. >> olivia troye, thanks for being with us. again, we really appreciate it. thanks so much. >> thank you, andrea. president trump is on the hook for more than $400 million of debt. but whom does he owe? and is it a national security threat as nancy pelosi suggested? this is "andrea mitchell reports." we'll hear more on that coming up. you're watching msnbc. undred thd dollar student debt. two hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in debt. ah, sofi literally changed my life. it was the easiest application process. sofi made it so there's no tradeoff between my dreams and paying student loans. student loans don't have to take over for the rest of your life. thank you for allowing me to get my money right.

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one of special counsel robert miles an hourueller's le prosecutors says president trump's finances should have been investigated as part of the russia probe amid bombshell revelations from "the new york times" that house speaker nancy pelosi told me are a national

security matter. andrew weissmann was one of mueller's prosecutors and the author of "where law ends," just out today. andrew, thanks for joining us today. i want to ask you why the decision was made not to fully investigate donald trump's finances. >> great question, obviously quite timely in light of the "new york times" reporting. i think the first thing that people need to understand is, for 22 months we were investigating somebody who had an unusual power, and that is he had the power to fire us. i've prosecuted mobsters and enron executives, and those can be tough cases. but the people you're looking at don't have that power to pull the plug on your investigation. so early on, i describe in the book how we issued a subpoena to deutsche bank, and the white house called up and said, are you doing an investigation of the president's finances?

usually that's a red flag, that's something to look at. director mueller had a tough decision to make at that initial stage of the investigation which is, do you risk being fired and thus not continuing an investigation, or do you decide let's put that off 'til later. and he made the decision to do the latter. and that of course led to all sorts of prosecutions. we uncovered what russia had been doing in terms of interfering with the election to try and tip the election in favor of candidate trump, of russian interference in terms of hacking the dnc. we learned that paul manafort had been giving polling data to a russian operative. so all sort of things came out of the investigation. where i take issue with the decision is that we didn't revisit it later in the day. and it seemed to me that later on in the investigation, after

we had proved all those things and proceeded, it was important for us at that point to do the full financial investigation that was warranted by the appointment order of the special counsel. >> and in fact all of us had assumed that you were doing that. we assumed that the fbi already had his tax returns, which clearly was a false assumption as well. you write in the book that lawless white house -- you write that our country is now faced with the problem of a lawless white house with a belief that following the rules is optional and that breaking them comes at minimal if not zero cost. and then you say about the subpoena, about what you told robert mueller, quote, what are we saying to future presidents and to future investigators if we do not subpoena the president in this investigation? how can others justify the need to do so? that was really a critical, critical moment, not subpoenaing the president, just accepting

his prewritten answers. >> i was very concerned about the precedent that was set in terms of what will the next special counsel do. they will throw back in that special counsel's face what happened here. but one of the things i do in the book is try and lay out ways in which i think the special counsel rules can be amended. as you know, andrea, having -- being about my age, you know that these rules have changed over time from watergate to ken starr to what we have now. and i think it would be really good for congress and the department of justice to take a look at the rules under which the next special counsel operates so that the next special counsel mueller has an easier time of making those decisions and has clear guidance from those rules as to what he's supposed to do, not the least of which would be the education

function. in other words, everyone had the assumption that we could in fact indict a sitting president when in fact we had to follow doj rules that we could not. people thought that we were doing a full financial investigation and our report didn't clearly lay out what we did and did not do. and i think that educational function of the special counsel rules really needs to be enhanced going forward so we don't have this situation arise again. >> indeed. andrew weissmann, thanks so much for your insights and congratulations on the book. it's good to see you. debate day. joe biden and donald trump squaring off tonight. what to watch for, what to expect. analysis from two veterans reporters and authors, coming up next. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc.

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president trump and former vice president biden facing off only hours from now and their first presidential debate amidst a pandemic that has caused widespread unemployment and business failures, racial tensions, and a supreme court battle, among other crises. today the white house opened the senate campaign for judge amy coney barrett who could be a

decisive vote on obama and even the presidential winner if she's confirmed on president trump's rapid schedule before the election. >> reporter: if judge coney barrett is confirmed, should we recuse herself from any election-related cases? >> no answer on that. joining me now, "new york times" chief white house correspondent peter baker and susan glassner, staff writer at "the new yorker," the co-authors of "the man who ran washington: the life and times of james a. baker iii." congratulations, this book is incredible. it is just an amazing panoply of american history. and through your reporting, deep reporting on this unique individual. let's talk about debates, for instance. he was involved in everything in american politics, diplomacy,

finance, for so many decades. he's known for his role in several key debates. peter, what are the expectations for tonight's debate for president trump and former vice president biden, first of all? >> well, i think that jim baker would recognize the dynamic is because donald trump needs to change the dynamics of this race. he's losing by eight, nine, ten percentage points. he's only got 35 days left until the election and he needs to shake things up. nothing has changed this so far. his law and order message, supreme court nomination. none of these factors have changed the underlying dynamics of this race. he needs tonight to do something to change the minds and to rally his own supporters in a way he hasn't been able to do so far. whether he can do that or not, up in the air. that's why this debate matters so much for him. for biden, it's a matter of holding on to the lead he's got. not doing anything to mess it up, not doing anything to give

ammunition to the other side. but this is the first time we'll see the two of them on a stage together. that's a pretty important moment. >> and we've seen before in history james baker prepping ronald reagan for this debate against jimmy carter in 1980. jimmy carter, of course, the incumbent. ronald reagan viewed as a threat, a security threat if you will. donald trump when he first ran, and take a look where he says there you go again, as well as, are you better off than you were four years ago, which was really a fundamental question. that's really an important question for joe biden tonight. >> well, that's right, andrea. i think that you look back at baker and his time. he knew how crucial these debates were as a moment the american public is paying attention to. also by the way, how difficult it is for incumbent presidents

as opposed to insurgent challengers. ronald reagan had a tough time but an easier time in 1980 against jimmy k moomy carter. baker almost got in trouble when he screwed up his 1984 initial debate against mondale. reagan went on to recover and to win in a landslide re-election victory but he didn't do very well. and there's a long history. remember, even barack obama did not do very well in his first debate against romney when he was running for re-election. donald trump has famously been saying he doesn't care very much about preparing for tonight's debate. he hasn't been closeted doing it very much, and you know, it will be interesting to see, he didn't really have any primary debate season this time. you had no significant challengers, whereas joe biden went through the rigor of a whole bunch of debates. many of them cacophonous. we'll see if trump is ready for it. many incumbents aren't. >> and then the supreme court.

which is, you know, a late-breaking, big issue, of course, with the death of ruth bader ginsburg, the appointment last weekend of amy coney barrett and her appearance already in the senate today, this rapid timetable. peter, president trump's nominee for the supreme court is very, very conservative but has the appeal, you know, a mom of seven school-aged children, all the rest they've been portraying her as, how would that compare to the way baker helped president reagan choose sandra day o'connor, somebody who was more middle of the road and very confirmable as the first woman on the court? >> well, that's exactly right. people forget that ronald reagan put the very first woman on the supreme court. it was sandra day o'connor. and baker helped steer him to her as a more moderate choice that would reach out across the aisle. this is the difference between then and now, right? baker's era and today's era.

the incentive was to reach out and get consensus, get somebody out there who would appeal to the other party. today the incentive seems to be the opposite direction. get somebody who is so, you know, powerfully conservative that would rouse and rally your own base, even at the expense of losing basically every democrat, every member of the other party. that's not seen as a virtue. bipartisan consensus is out the window. it's all about pushing forward somebody as far to the, you know, extreme of your party as you can. in baker's era, it was the exact opposite. >> to the two of you, james baker was proudest of his role as a diplomat and all of -- that he achieved with global relationships. the end of the cold war. the relationship at the end of the cold war and reunification of germany and raising money for the first iraq war, desert storm

for the japan -- the alliance there. you write that james baker torn about his feelings about donald trump, called him nuts and crazy, but he's not a never trumper, and he's sticking with him so far. can you explain that? >> well, you know, we've watched him wrestle with this question as republicans around the country have wrestled with this question for the last five years. jim baker does not like donald trump. let's make that clear. he called him nuts to us. he call him crazy. he said in many ways what he stands for is antithetical to everything that baker has been though world stage. baker is an internationalist. he's a free trader. he was so offended, i remember one time right after trump's inauguration he said y does he keep saying mexico is going to pay for the wall. mexico is not going to pay for the wall. he shouldn't do that. he was offended by the incompetence of the administration. we're at such a partisan time, i think for many republicans, not

just for baker, you see them having a really hard time renouncing the idea of their party. and that's why, by the way, donald trump is running so close in the polls to joe biden. you would think with 200,000 dead americans, with the economy cratering, with all the scandals that it would be a much wider race, frankly. and i think our conversations with baker helped me to understand why it's not. and i -- we just learned so much from doing this project. we don't study lbj as a power broke erbecause we admire him but to understand how power worked, and that's what this was. >> well, susan and peter, congratulations again. we have to leave it there for now. we'll keep returning to this book going forward. that does it for "andrea mitchell reports." join msnbc for complete coverage of the first presidential debate tonight starting at 8:00 eastern. i'll be joining our special network coverage on your local nbc station at 9:00 eastern. chuck todd is up next with "mtp

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want conservative judges on i'the court.vative, this may make you feel better, but i really don't care. if an opening comes in the last year of president trump's term and the primary process has started we'll wait to the next election. i want you to use my words against me. you're on the record. yeah, hold the tape. lindsey must go and the lincoln project are responsible for the content of this ad.

more dangerous and corrupt president than trump. he's harming our basic values, giving rise to hate, and he's selling out america to big corporations. i'm working to protect immigrants, women, communities of color, and lgbtq people. and i'm making corporations like pg&e and insurance companies play by our rules. we need experienced leadership to wipe away trump's stain on america for good. if it's tuesday, the candidates get ready to face off in the first presidential debate of 2020. as the front-runner biden has the most to lose. and president trump is signaling a scorched earth strategy. plus, as the candidates take the stage, coronavirus continues to rage. a million people have died around the world. north america leads the wod.