some tough shots, but don't let trump get under your skin. which is really hard. we can say that in our interview here. they're on a stage in front of, like, 100 million americans, so it's really tough to execute that, but if joe biden does that, i think he'll have a very good night tonight. >> david plouffe, former campaign manager and adviser to president obama. host now of "the campaign hq podcast." david, thanks for being here. it's really good to have you here on this night. it is now just past 9:00 on the east coast, which means we are about to start. you see chris wallace there taking his seat. he will be the sole moderator tonight. there will be three presidential debates in total, each one will have a solo moderator. seeing the first lady melania trump arrive. we're seeing -- she'll be sitting there on the sort of trump side of the -- of the house with lots of trump family members and white house personnel. we don't know very much -- we were just talking about this, the three of us, earlier a moment ago, we don't know very much about who is in the room. there would usually be, like,

900 or 1,000 people in the room like this becaufor the debate. because of covid, we believe there is less than 100. the campaigns don't appear to have pulled any stunts as to who they've got on site. you can see family members and advisers are quite close to the stage. >> look agent some of whom donald trump invited. he's got a widow here, and who is i guess maybe a part of his immigration message. he's got people who spoke at the rnc. at the republican national convention. >> as does biden. he has somebody who spoke at the dnc. >> exactly. and i think one of the women who spoke we actually talked to here whose dad died of covid and his only pre-existing condition was listening to donald trump. so there are people there. it's a question of whether they can refer to them and i'm curious whether they work them in somehow. >> it will be interesting -- i mean, so many people have advised biden and i think advised trump maybe even a little that part of the key tonight might be humor. if you want a zinger, a memorable line, that humor can

help, especially if you're talking about something that's not the worst, dire thing in the world, if you can take -- if you can take a lighthearted approach. in a room that's almost empty, you can't count on getting roaring applause. >> that cuts both ways. i mean, we always think of trump as someone who needs a crowd, needs that feedback. he's also someone who isn't inhibited by shame. so i wouldn't expect him to be limited by the lack of a cheering audience. i think for biden, he's someone who has done more remote campaigning and remote communicating over the last six months. this may be more comfortable. but i think as joy said, in some ways these are two men running their own races, but what happens when they come together is still anybody's guess. >> yeah. and donald trump is -- is used to being very highly produced. >> correct. >> because, remember, he hired sean hannity's former executive privilege to sort of produce the white house for him. he's had mark burnett, you know, to produce his persona. >> correct. >> so he's out there kind of on

a wire on his own now. he's got to really be an unproduced character who has been stripped of the veneer of actually being the donald trump most americans know. he's sort of out there naked in a sense. people know he's not as rich, know he's not successful and they know it wasn't real. >> we don't know he told them any of those things. >> good point. >> please don't ever say naked again. >> i'm sorry. >> i'm just like -- >> sorry. >> i have to go bleach my brain. my god. i am simple. but i've got a few rules. this will be 90 minutes. there will be no commercials. there will be no opening statements. there will be no breaks, although there will be six distinct sections of about 15 minutes each. it will start, the first question going to president trump. that was prearranged by the campaigns. our moderator will be chris wallace from "fox news sunday." the debate should begin now and the candidates should be taking their places at the podiums. let's go to it live.

good evening from the health education campus of case western reserve university and the cleveland clinic. i'm chris wallace of fox news, and i welcome you to the first of the 2020 presidential debates between president donald j. trump and former vice president joe biden. this debate is sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. the commission has designed the format, six roughly 15-minute segments with two-minute answers from each candidate to the first question then open discussion for the rest of each segment. both campaigns have agreed to these rules. for the record, i decided the topics and the questions in each topic. i can assure you none of the questions has been shared with the commission or the two candidates. this debate is being conducted

under health and safety protocols designed by the cleveland clinic, which is serving as the health security adviser to the commission for all four debates. as a precaution, both campaigns have agreed the candidates will not shake hands at the beginning of tonight's debate. the audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent. no cheers, no boos or other interruptions so we, and more importantly you, can focus on what the candidates have to say. no noise except right now as we welcome the republican nominee, president trump, and the democratic nominee, vice president biden. [ applause ] >> how are you doing, man? >> how are you? >> i'm well.

>> gentlemen, a lot of people have been waiting for this night, so let's get going. our first subject is the supreme court. president trump, you nominated amy coney barrett over the weekend to succeed the late ruth bader ginsburg on the court. you say the constitution is clear about your obligation and the senate's to consider a nominee to the court. vice president biden, you say that this is an effort by the president and republicans to jam through an appointment and what you call an abuse of power. my first question to both of you tonight, why are you right and make the argument you make and your opponent wrong, and where do you think a justice barrett would take the court? president trump, in this first segment, you go first. two minutes. >> thank you very much, chris. i will tell you, very simply, we won the election. elections have consequences. we have the senate. we have the white house. and we have a phenomenal nominee

respected by all. top, top academic. good in every way. good in every way. in fact, some of her biggest endorsers are very liberal people from notre dame and other places. so i think she's going to be fantastic. we have plenty of time. even if we did it after the election itself, i have a lot of time after the election, as you know. so i think that she will be outstanding. she's going to be as good as anybody that has served on that court. we really feel that. we have a professor at notre dame, highly respected by all, said she's the single-greatest student he's ever had. he's been a professor for a long time at a great school. and we just -- we won the election and therefore we have the right to choose her and very few people knowingly would say otherwise. and by the way, the democrats, they wouldn't even think about not doing it. if they had -- the only difference is they'd try to do it faster. there's no way they would give it up. they had merrick garland, but the problem is they didn't have

the election. so they were stopped. and probably that would happen in reverse also. definitely it would happen in reverse. so we won the election and we have the right to do it, chris. >> president trump, thank you. same question to you, vice president biden. you have two minutes. >> well, first of all, thank you for doing this and looking forward to this, mr. president. >> thank you. thank you, joe. >> i -- the american people have a right to have a say in who the supreme court nominee is, and that say occurs when they vote for a united states senator and when they vote for the president of the united states. they're not going to get that chance now because we're in the middle of an election already. the election has already started. tens of thousands of people have already voted. and so the thing that should happen is we should wait. we should wait and see what the outcome of this election is. because that's the only way the american people get to express their view, is by who they elect as president and who they elect as vice president.

now, what's at stake here, as the president has made it clear, he wants to get rid of the affordable care act. he's been running on that. he ran on that and he has been governing on that. he's in the supreme court right now trying to get rid of the affordable care act. which will strip 20 million people from having insurance, health insurance now, if they -- if it goes in the court, and -- and the justice -- and i have nothing -- i'm not opposed to the justice. she seems like a very fine person, but she's written before she went on the bevinch, which her right, that she thinks the affordable care act is not constitutional. the other thing that's on the court -- and if it's struck down, what happens? women's rights are fundamentally changed. once again, a woman could be held -- pay more money because she has a pre-existing condition, a pregnancy. they're able to charge a woman more for the same exact procedure a man did -- gets. and that ended when we, in fact, passed the affordable care act.

and there's 100 million people who have pre-existing conditions. and they'll be taken away as well. those pre-existing conditions, insurance companies are going to love this. and so it's just not appropriate to do this before this election. if he wins the election and the senate is democrat or republican, then he goes forward. if not, we should wait until february. >> all right. >> there aren't 100 million people with pre-existing conditions. as far as the say is concerned, the people already had their say. they -- okay, justice ginsburg said very powerfully, very strongly, at some point, ten years ago or so, she said a president and the senate is elected for a period of time, but a president's elected for four years. we're not le batarded for three years. i'm not elected for three years. so we have the senate, we have a president -- >> he's elected to the next -- >> during that period of time, during that period of time we have an opening. i'm not elected for three years. i'm elected for four years. >> and the election's already

started. >> joe, the 100 million people is totally wrong. i don't know where you got that number. the bigger problem that you have is that you're going to extinguish 180 million people with their private health care that they're very happy with. >> that's simply not true. >> well, you're certainly going to socialist. you're going to socialist medicine. >> gentlemen, we're now into open discussion. >> open discussion. >> yes, i agree. go ahead, vice president biden. >> number one, he knows that -- what i proposed. what i proposed is that we expand obamacare and we increase it. we do not wipe any -- and one of the big debates we had with 23 of my colleagues trying to win the nomination that i won were saying that biden wanted to allow people to have private insurance still. they can. they do. they will under my proposal. >> that's not what you've said and it's not what your party has said. >> that is simply a lie. >> your party wants to go socialist medicine -- >> my party is me. right now i m am the democratic

party right now. >> not according to harris. >> the democratic party platform is what i, in fact, approved of. what i approved of. now, here's the deal, the deal is that it's going to wipe out pre-existing conditions -- by the way, the 20 -- 200 million -- the 200,000 people that have died on his watch, they're -- how many of those have survived? well, there's 7 million people that's contracted covid. what does it mean for them going forward if you strike down the affordable care act? >> joe, you've had 308,000 military people dying because you couldn't provide them proper health care in the military, so don't talk to me about this. it wouldn't be 200, it would be 2 million people because you were very late on the draw. you didn't want me to ban china, which was heavily infected. you didn't want me to ban europe -- >> gentlemen -- mr. president, mr. president, mr. president -- >> you're talking about 2 million people. >> mr. president, as the moderator, we are going to talk about covid in the next segment,

but go ahead. >> let me finish. the point is that the president also is opposed to roe v. wade. that's on the ballot as well. in the court. in the court. and so that's also at stake right now. and so the election is all -- >> you don't know it's on the ballot. why is it on the ballot? >> because you said -- >> it's not on the ballot. >> it's on the ballot in the court. >> i don't think so. >> in the court. >> there's nothing happening there. >> donald, would you just be quiet for a minute. >> and you don't know her view on roe v. wade. you don't know her view. >> well, all right, let's talk to -- i -- we've got a lot to unpack here. gentlemen, we've got a lot of time, so -- on health care, and then we'll come back to roe v. wade. >> all right. >> mr. president, the supreme court will hear a case a week after the election in which the trump administration along with 18 state attorneys general are seeking to overturn -- >> that's right. >> -- obamacare. to end obamacare. you have spent the last -- >> because we want to give good health care. >> if i may ask my question, sir. >> good health care.

>> over the last four years, you have promised to repeal and replace obamacare, but you have never in these four years come up with a plan, a comprehensive plan -- >> yes, i have. >> to replace obamacare. >> of course i have. i got rid of the individual mandate. excuse me, i got rid of the individual mandate, which was a big chunk of -- >> that is not a comprehensive plan. >> that is absolutely a huge thing. chris, that was the worst part of obamacare. >> let me ask my question. >> well, i'll ask joe. the individual mandate was the most unpopular aspect of obamacare. >> mr. president, i'm the moderator of this debate, and i would like you to let me ask my question and then you can kansas. >> go ahead, chris. >> you in the course of the three years have never come up with a comprehensive plan to replace obamacare, and just this last thursday you signed a largely symbolic executive order to protect people with pre-existing conditions five days before this debate.

so my question, sir, is, what is the trump health care plan? >> all right. well, first of all, i guess i'm debating you, not him, but that's okay. i'm not surprised. let me just tell you something that there's nothing symbolic. i'm cutting drug prices. i'm going with favored nations which no president has had the courage to do because you're going against big pharma. drug prices will be coming down 80% or 90%. you could have done it during your 47-year period in government but you didn't do it. nobody's done it. so we're cutting health care. >> what about pre-existing conditions -- >> i give an example. insulin. it's going to -- it was destroying families, destroying people, the costs. i'm getting it so for cheap, it's like water, you want to know the truth. so cheap. take a look at all the drugs, what we're doing. prescription drug prices. we're going to allow our governors to go to other countries to buy drugs because they pay just a tiny fact. >> as i say, this is open discussion. >> this is big stuff. >> sir, you'll be happy, i'm about to pick up on one of your points to ask the vice

president, which is, as he points out, that you would like to add a public option to obamacare. >> yes. >> and the argument that he makes and other republicans make is that that is going to end private insurance -- >> it is not. >> -- and will -- >> sorry. >> if i can ask the question. >> that's not what your party says, by the way. >> it will end private insurance and create a government takeover of health care. >> it does not. it's only for those people who are so poor they qualify for medicaid, they can get that free in most states except governors who want to deny people who are poor medicaid. anyone who qualifies for medicare -- excuse me, medicaid would automatically be enrolled in the public option. the vast majority of the american people would still not be in that option. number one zb. >> joe, you agreed with bernie sanders who is far-left on the manifesto we call it, that would give you socialized medicine. >> hey, i'm not gonna listen to him. the fact of the matter is i beat

bernie sanders. >> not by much. pocahontas would have left two days early, you would have lost every primary on super tuesday. you got very lucky. >> i got very lucky. i'm going to get very lucky tonight as well. >> with what? >> i'm going to make sure -- >> with what? >> here's the deal, the fact is everything he's saying so far is simply a lie. i'm not here to call out his lies, everybody knows he's a liar. >> joe, you're the liar. >> i want to make sure -- >> you graduated last in your class, not first in your class. >> oh, god. >> mr. president, can you let him finish, sir. >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> you'd be surprised. you'd be surprised. go ahead, joe. >> the wrong night at the wrong time. >> listen, you agreed with bernie sanders and the manifesto. >> there is no manifesto, number one. >> please, let him speak, mr. president. >> he just lost the left. >> number two. >> you just lost the left. you agreed with bernie sanders on a plan -- >> folks -- >> -- you absolutely agreed to --

>> do you have any idea what this clown's doing? >> socialized medicine. >> mr. president -- >> i tell you what, he is not for any help for any people needing health care. >> who isn't, bernie? >> because he, in fact, has already cost 10 million people their health care that they had from their employers because of his recession. number one. >> oh, yeah, yeah. >> number two, there are 20 million people getting health care through obamacare now that he wants to take it away. he won't ever look you in the eye and say that's what he wants to do, take it away. >> no, i want to give them better health care at a much lower price. >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> i've already fixed it. i've already fixed it to an extent. >> he has never done a single thing. >> gentlemen, you realize if you're both speaking at the same time -- let the president -- go ahead, sir. >> obamacare is no good. we made it better and i had a choice toe make very early on. we took away the individual mandate. we guaranteed pre-existing conditions, but took away the individual mandate. >> not true. >> listen, this is the way it is.

and that destroyed -- that -- they shouldn't even call it obamacare. then i had a choice to make, do i let my people run it really well or badly? if i run it badly, they'll probably blame him but they'll blame me. more importantly, i want to help people, okay. i said you got to run it so well. i just had a meeting for it. they said the problem is no matter how well you run obamacare, it's a disaster. it's too expensive. premiums are too high. >> that's what his people said. >> we do want to get rid of it -- chris, we want to get rid of it -- >> i understand, sir, but i have to give you roughly equal time. please let the vice president talk, sir. >> good. >> he has no plan for health care. >> of course we do. >> please. >> he sends out wishful thinking. he has executive orders that have no power. he hasn't lowered drug costs for anybody. he's been promising a health care plan since he got elected. he has none, like almost everything else he talks about. he does not have a plan. he doesn't have a plan. and the fact is this man doesn't know what he's talking about.

>> all right. i have one final question for you -- >> sure -- >> -- mr. vice president. if senate republicans -- we were talking originally about the supreme court here. if senate republicans go ahead and confirm justice barrett, there has been talk about ending the filibuster or even packing the court, adding to the nine justices there. you call this a distraction by the president, but, in fact, it wasn't brought up by the president, it was brought up by some of your democratic colleagues in the congress. so my question to you is, you have refused in the past to talk about it. are you willing to tell the american people tonight whether or not you will support either ending the filibuster or packing the court -- >> whatever position i take on that, that will become the issue. the issue is the american people should speak. you should go out and vote. you're in voting now. vote and let your senators nkno how strong you feel. >> are you going to pack the court? are you going to pack the court. he doesn't want to answer the

question. >> i'm not going to answer the question. >> why wouldn't you answer that question? >> the question is -- the question is -- >> a new supreme court justice, the radical left -- >> will you shut up, man. >> listen, who is on your list, joe? >> all right, gentlemen, i think we've ended this -- >> this is so un-presidential. >> not going to give a list. >> we have ended this segment. we're going to move on to the next segment. >> that was really a productive segment, wasn't it. keep yapping, man. >> the people understand, joe. >> they sure do. >> 47 years, you've done nothing. they understand. >> all right. the second subject is covid-19, which is an awfully serious subject, so let's try to be serious about it. we have had more than 7 million cases of coronavirus in the united states. and more than 200,000 people have died. even after we produce a vaccine, experts say that it could be months or even years before we come back to anything approaching normal. my question for both of you is,

based on what you have said and done so far and what you have said you would do, starting in 2021, why should the american people trust you more than your opponent to deal with this public health crisis going forward? in this case, the question goes to you first, sir. two minutes uninterrupted. >> good luck. 200,000 dead. as you said, over 7 million infected in the united states. we, in fact, have 5% of -- 4% of the world's population, 20% of the deaths. 40,000 people a day are contracting covid. in addition to that, about between 750 and 1,000 people today are dying. when he was presented with that number he said "it is what it is." well, it is what it is because you are who you are. that's why it is. the president has no plan. he hasn't laid out anything. he knew all the way back in

february how serious this crisis was. he knew was a deadly disease. what did he do? he's on tape as acknowledging he knew it. he said he didn't tell us or give people a warning of it because he didn't want to panic the american people. you don't panic, he panicked. in addition to that, what did he do? he went in and he -- we were insisting that the chinese -- the people we had on the ground in china should be able to go to wuhan and determine for themselves how dangerous this was. he did not even ask xi to do that. he told us what a great job xi was doing. he said we owe him a debt of gratitude for being so transparent with us. and what did he do then? he then did nothing -- he waited and waited and waited. he still doesn't have a plan. >> wrong. >> i laid out -- >> sir, it's his two minutes. >> it's so wrong. >> -- a plan of exactly what we should be doing. and i laid out again in july what we should be doing. we should be providing all the protective gear possible. we should be providing the money the house has passed in order to

be able to go out and get people the help they need to keep their businesses open. open schools, it costs a lot of money. you should get out of your bunker and get out of the sand trap on your golf course and go in the oval office and bring together the democrats, republicans and fund what needs to be done now to save lives. >> so, if we would have listened to you -- >> you have two minutes, sir. >> if we would have listened to you, the country would have been left wide open. millions of people would have died, not 200,000, and one person is too much, it's china's fault. it should have never happened. they stopped it from going in, but it was china's fault. and by the way, when you talk about numbers. you don't know how many people died in china. you don't know how many people died in russia. you don't know how many people died in india. they don't exactly give you a straight count, just so you understand, but if you look at what we've done, i closed it and you said he's xenophobic, he's a racist and he's xenophobic -- >> unrelated. >> wait a minute, sir. it's his two minutes. >> you didn't think we should close our country because you

thought it was terrible. you wouldn't have closed it for another two months. by my doing it early, in fact, dr. fauci said president trump saved thousands of lives. many of your democrat governors said president trump did a phenomenal job. we worked with the governor -- oh, really, go take a look. the governors said i did a phenomenal job. most of them said that. in fact, people that would not be necessarily on my side said that. president trump did a phenomenal job. we did. we got the gowns, we got the masks, we made the ventilators. you wouldn't have made ventilators. and now we're weeks away from a vaccine. we're doing therapeutics already. fewer people are dying when they get silk. -- sick. far fewer people are dying. we've done a great job. the only thing i haven't done a good job and that's because of the fake news. no matter what you say to them, they give you bad press on it. it's just fake news. they give you good press. they give me bad press because that's the way it is unfortunately. let me tell you something -- i don't care, i've gotten used to

it. let me tell you, joe, you never could have done the job. you don't have it in your blood. >> i know how to do the job. >> well, you didn't do well in swine flew. h1n1. you were a disaster. your own chief of staff said you were a disaster. >> 14,000 people died, not 200,000. there was no economic recession. >> sir, you made a point. let him answer. >> and there is no one -- we didn't shut down the economy. this is his economy that's being -- he shut down. the reason it the shut it shut down. how many of you got up this morning and had an empty chair at the kitchen table because someone died of covid? how many of you are in a situation where you lost your mom or dad and you couldn't even speak to them and had a nurse holding a phone up so you could, in fact, say good-bye. >> you would have lost far more people. far more people. you would have been much later. you were months behind me, joe. >> his own cdc director says we can lose another 200,000 people between now and the end of the

year. he said if we just wear a mask, we can save half those numbers. just a mask. and by the way, in terms of the whole notion of a vaccine, we're for a vaccine, but we -- i don't trust him at all. nor do you. i know you don't. what we trust is the scientists. >> you don't trust johnson & johnson, pfizer? >> gentlemen, let me move on to questions about the future because you both have touched on one of the -- two of the questions i'm going to ask. focussing on the future first. president trump, you have repeatedly either constant didn'ted or been at odds with some of your government's own top scientists. the week before last, the head of the centers for disease control dr. redfield said it would be summer before the vaccine would become generally available to the public. you said that he was confused. and mistaken. though were your two words. >> yeah. >> but the head of your operation warp speed has said exactly the same thing. are they both wrong? >> well, i've spoken to the companies and we can have it a

lot sooner. it's a very political thing because people like this would rather make it political than save lives. >> oh, god. >> it is a very political thing. i've spoken to pfizer, i've spoken to all of the people that you have to speak to. we have great -- moderna, johnson & johnson and others. they can go faster than that by a lot. it's become very political because the left -- or i don't know if i call him left. i don't know what i call him. >> the head of the operation warp speed -- >> i disagree with him. no, i disagree with both of them. he didn't say that. he said it could be there but also much sooner. i had him in my office two days ago. >> he talked about the summer, sir, before it's generally available. >> he said there is a possibility we'll have answer before november 1st. it could also be -- >> i'm talking about whether it's generally available. >> well, we're going to deliver it right away. we have the military all set up. logistically they're all set up. we have our military that delivers soldiers and they can do 200,000 a day. they're going to be delivering the vaccine. >> this is the same man who told you -- >> it's all set up. >> -- by easter this would be

gone away. the warm weather it would be gone, miraculously, like a miracle. by the way, maybe inject some bleach in your arm and that would take care of. >> that was said sarcastically and you know it. >> here's the deal, this man is talking about a vaccine. every serious -- every serious company is talking about maybe having a vaccine done by the end of the year. but the distribution of that vaccine will not occur until some time beginning in the middle of next year to get it out. if we get the vaccine. and pray god we will. pray god we will. >> mr. vice president, i want to pick up the -- >> you'll have the vaccine sooner. >> i want to pick up on this question, though. you say the public can trust the scientists but they can't trust president trump. in fact, you said that tonight. your running mate, senator harris, goes further, saying the public health experts, quote, will be muzzled, will be suppressed. given the fact that polls already show that people are concerned about the vaccine and are reluctant to take it, are you and your running mate, senator harris, contributing to that fear?

>> no more than the question you just asked him. you pointed out he puts pressure and disagrees with his own scientists. >> but you're saying -- senator harris is saying you can't trust the scientists. >> well, no, no, you can trust the scientists. she didn't say that. you can trust the scientists. >> she did say that. >> the public health experts will be muzzled, will be suppressed. >> yes, that's what he's going to try to do. there are thousands of scientists out there like here at this great hospital that don't work for him. their job doesn't depend on him. that's not -- they're the people -- and by the way -- >> i spoke to the scientists that are in charge. they will have the vaccine very soon. >> let him finish. >> do you believe for a moment what he's telling you, in light of all the lies he's told you about the whole issue relating to covid? he still hasn't even acknowledged that he knew this was happening, knew how dangerous it was going to be back in february and he didn't even tell you. he's on record as saying it.

he panicked or he just looked at the stock market. one of the two. because guess what? a lot of people died. and a lot more are going to die unless he gets a lot smarter a lot quicker. >> mr. president? >> did you use the word smart? so you said you went to delaware state but you forget the name of your college. you didn't go to delaware state. you graduated either the lowest or almost the lowest in your class. don't ever use the word smart with me. don't ever use that word. >> oh, give me a break, man. >> you know what? there's nothing smart about you, joe. 47 years, you've done nothing. >> let's have this debate -- >> let me just tell you something, joe, if you would have had the charge of what i was put through. i had to close the greatest economy in the history of our country. and by the way, now it's being built again. >> we'll get to the economy in the next segment, sir. >> it's going up fast. >> okay. when it comes to how the virus has been handled so far, the two of you have taken very different approaches, and this is going to affect. how the virus is handled going

forward by whichever of you ends up becoming the next president. i want to quickly go through several of those. vice president biden, you have been much more reluctant about reopening the economy and the schools, why, sir? >> because he doesn't have a plan. if i were running it, i'd know what the plan is. you've got to provide these businesses the ability to have the money to be able to reopen with the ppe as well as with the sanitation they need. you have to provide -- >> tell that to nancy pelosi. >> will he just shush for a minute. >> tell it to nancy pelosi and schumer. crying chuck. >> by the way, nancy pelosi and schumer, they have a plan. he won't even meet with them. the republicans won't meet with the senate. >> okay. >> he sits -- he sits on his golf course -- i mean, literally. >> you probably play more than i do, joe. >> let what about this question reopenings? >> well, he wants to shut down this country and i want to keep it open. wait a minute, joe, let me shut

you down for a second, joe. just one second. we want to -- he wants to shut down the country. we just went through it. we had to because we didn't know anything about the disease. now we found that elderly people with heart problems and diabetes and different problems are very, very vulnerable. we learned a lot. young children aren't. even younger people aren't. we've learned a lot. but he wants to shut it down. more people will be hurt by continuing -- if you look at pennsylvania, if you look at certain states that have been shut down, they have democrat governors all. one of the reasons they're shut down is because they want to keep it shut down until after the election, november 3rd. because it's a political thing. >> i want to move on to another segment. gentlemen, i want to move on to another subject. >> those states are not doing well that are shut down. >> i got to respond to that. >> president trump, you have begun to increasingly question the effectiveness of masks as a disease preventer, and, in fact, recently you have cited the issue of waiters touching their masks and touching plates.

are you questioning the -- >> no, think that masks are okay. >> the efficacy of masks. >> you have to understand, i have a mask right here. i put a mask on when i think i need it. tonight, as an example, everybody's had a test and you've had social distancing and all of the things that you have to, but i wear masks, when needed. when needed, i wear masks. i don't have to -- i don't wear masks like him. every time you see him he's got a mask. he could be speaking 200 feet away and he shows up with the biggest mask i've ever seen. i will say this -- >> vice president biden, go ahead, sir. >> look, the way to open businesses is give them the wherewithal to be able to open. we provided money -- >> but i was asking you, sir, about masks. >> well, masks make a big difference. his own head of the cdc said if we just wore masks between now -- if everybody wore a mask and social distanced between now and january, we'd probably save up to 100,000 lives. it matters. >> and they've also said the opposite. they've also said the opposite. >> no serious person said the opposite. >> all right. i wanted to --

>> dr. fauci said the opposite. >> he did not say the opposite. >> a little more than a minute left in this segment. >> masks are not good. then he changed his mind and said masks are good. i'm okay with masks. i'm not fighting masks. >> i want to ask you about one last subject. your different approaches has even affected the way you campaigned. president trump, you're holding large rallies with crowds packed together, thousands of people. >> outside. >> outside, yes, sir. agreed. vice president biden, you are holding much smaller events. >> because nobody will show up. >> people with masks -- >> well, it's true, nobody shows up to his rallies. >> all right. in any case, why are you holding the big rallies, why are you not? you go first, sir. >> because people want to hear what i have to say. i've done a great job as president and i'll have 25,000, 30,000 people show up at airports, we use airports hangars. >> are you not worried about the disease issue, sir? >> well, so far we have had no problem whatsoever. it's outside. that's a big difference according to the experts. we do them outside.

we have tremendous crowds, as you see. i mean, every -- and literal on 24 hours notice. and joe does the circles and has three people someplace. >> okay. >> by the way, did you see one of the last big rallies he had. a reporter came up to him to ask him a question and he said, no, no, no, stand back, put on a mask. put on a mask. have you been tested? i'm way far away from those other people. that's what he said. i'm going to be okay. he's not worried about you. he's not worried about the people breathing in -- >> we've had no negative effects. >> no negative effect. >> we've had no negative effect and we've had 35,000, 40,000 people at these rallies. >> do you want to quickly finish up because i want to move on to our next question? >> yes, i would. he's been totally irresponsible the way in which he's handled the social distancing and people wearing masks. basically encouraging them not to. >> all right. >> he's a fool on this. >> if you could get the crowds, you would have done the same thing. but you can't. nobody cares. >> gentlemen, can we move on to the economy? >> yes.

>> the economy is -- i think it's fair to say -- recovering faster than expected from the shutdown. >> much faster. >> in the second quarter. the unemployment rate fell to 8.4% last month. the federal reserve says the hit to growth, which is going to be there, is not going to be nearly as big as they had expected. president trump, you say we are in a v-shaped recovery. vice president biden, you say it's more of a "k" shape. what difference does that mean to the american people in terms of the economy? president trump, in this segment you go first. >> so we've built the greatest economy in history. we close it down because of the china plague. when the plague came in, we closed it down. which was very hard psychologically to do. he didn't think we should close it down and he was wrong. again, 2 million people would be dead now instead of, still, 204,000 people is too much. one person is too much. should have never happened from china. but what happened is we closed it down and now we're reopening. and we're doing record business.

we had 10.4 million people in a fo four-month period that we've put people back into the workforce. that's a record the likes of which nobody's seen before. he will shut it down again. he will destroy this country. you know, a lot of people between drugs and alcohol and depression, when you start shutting it down, you take a look at what's happening at some of your democrat-run states where they have these tough shutdowns. and i'm telling you it's because they don't want to open it. one of them came out last week, you saw that, oh, we're going to open up november 9th. why november 9th? because it's after the election. they think they're hurting us by keeping them closed. they're hurting people. people know what to do. they can social distancing. they can wash the hands. they can wear masks. they can do whatever they want. but they got to open these states up. when you look at north carolina -- when you look and these governors are under siege. pennsylvania, michigan and a couple of others, you got to open these states up. it's not fair. you're talking about almost

being in prison. you look at what's going on with divorce. look what's going on with alcoholism and drugs. it's a very, very sad thing. and he'll close down the whole country. this guy will close down the whole country and destroy our country. our country is coming back incredibly well. setting records as it does it. we don't need somebody to come in and say let's shut it down. >> all right. your two minutes, sir. we now move to you. as i -- as i said posing the question, the president says it's a v-shaped recovery, you say it's a k-shaped recovery. what's the difference? >> the difference is millionaires and billionaires like him in the middle of a covid crisis have done very well. billionaires have made another $300 billion. because of his tax proposal and he only focused on the market. but you folks at home, you folks living in scranton and claymont and all the small towns and working. class towns in america, how are you doing? this guy paid --

>> well. >> a total of $750 in taxes. >> sir, it's his -- >> it's a wrong statement. >> i understand. you've agreed to the two minutes. so please let him have. >> do i get my time back? the fact is that he has worked on this in a way that he's going to be the first president of the united states to leave office having fewer jobs in his administration than when he became president. fewer jobs. than when he became president. first one in american history. secondly, the people who have lost their jobs are those people who have been on the front lines. those people who have been saving our lives. those people who have been out there dying. people who have been putting themselves in the way to make sure that we could all try to make it. and the idea that he is insisting that we go forward and open when you have almost half the states in america with a significant increase in covid deaths and covid cases in the united states of america. and he wants to open it up more. why does he want to open it?

why doesn't he take care -- you can't fix the economy until you fix the covid crisis. he has no intention of making it better for you all at home in terms of your health and safety. schools. why aren't schools open? because it costs a lot of money to open them safely. you know, they were going to give -- his administration was going to give the teachers and school students masks. then they decided, no, couldn't do that because it the not a national emergency. not a national emergency. they've done nothing to help small businesses. nothing. they're closing. 1 in 6 is now gone. he ought to get on the job and take care of the needs of the american people so we can open safely. >> all right. your time is up, sir. we are going to get to -- >> i have to respond to that. >> well, you both had two minutes, sir. >> excuse me, he made a statement. >> so did you. >> people want their schools -- no, people want their schools open. they don't want to be shut down. they don't want their states shut down. they want their restaurants. i look at new york, it's so sad what's happening in new york. it's almost like a ghost town. i'm not sure they can ever

recover, what they've done in new york. people want their places open. they want to get back to their lives. >> people want to be safe. >> i'm the one that brought back football. by the way, i brought back big ten football. it was me -- and i'm very happy to do it. >> all right. >> the people of ohio are very proud of me. >> gentlemen, we're going to get to your economic plans going forward in a moment, but first, mr. president, as you well know, there's a new report that in 2016, the year you were le batarded preside ? elected president, and the first year as president, you paid $7,5$750 a year in federal income tax in each of those years. i know you pay a lot of other taxes, but i'm asking you the specific question, is it true you paid $750 in federal income taxes each of those two years? >> i paid millions of dollars in taxes. millions of dollars of income tax. and let me just tell you, there was a story in one of the papers -- >> show us your tax returns.

>> i paid $38 million one year. i paid $27 million one year. >> show us your tax returns. >> i went -- you'll see it as soon as it's finished. you know if you wanted to, go to the board of elections. there's an 118-page or so report that says everything i have, every bank i have. i'm totally underleveraged because the assets are extremely good and we have a very -- we have a -- i built a great company. >> sir, i'm asking you a specific question -- >> let me tell you -- >> i understand that. >> release your tax returns. >> mr. president, i'm asking you a question. will you tell us how much you paid in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017? >> millions of dollars. >> you paid millions of dollars -- >> millions of dollars. millions of dollars. and you'll get to see it. >> when? >> chris, let me just tell you something. that it was the tax laws -- i don't want to pay tax. before i came here, i was a private developer. i was a private business people. like every other private person,

unless they're stupid, they go through the laws and that's what it is. he passed a tax bill that gave us all these privileges for depreciation and tax credits. we build a building and we get tabs credits, like the hotel on pennsylvania avenue, you get a massive -- which, by the way, was given to me by the obama administration, if you can believe that. now, man got fired right after that happened, but -- >> vice president biden, do you want to respond? >> yeah, i do want to respond. look, the tax code that made him -- put him in a position that he pays less tax than a schoolteacher makes -- on the money a schoolteacher makes is because of him taking -- he says he's smart because he can take advantage of the tabs code. -- tax code. he does take advantage of the tax code. i'm going to eliminate the trump tax cuts. >> good. okay. >> i'm going to eliminate those tax cuts and make sure we invest in the people who need the help. people out there need help. >> why didn't you do it over the last 25 years?

>> because you weren't president screwing things up. >> you were a senator -- >> you're the worst president america has ever had. come on. >> let me tell tell you, joe, i've done more in 47 months, i've done more than you've done in 47 years, joe. we've done things that you never even thought of doing, including fixing the broken military that you gave me. including taking care of your vets. >> mr. president, we're talking about the economy. i'd like to ask you about your plans going forward because, mr. vice president, your economic plan, if you were to be elected president -- >> he has none. >> focuses a lot on big government. big taxes. big spending. i want to focus first on the taxes. you proposed more than $4 trillion over a decade in new taxes on individuals making more than $400,000 a year and on corporations. president trump says that that kind of an increase in taxes is going to hurt the economy, as it's just coming out of a recession. >> well, just take a look at what the analysis done by wall

street firms. points out that my -- my economic plan would create 7 million more jobs than his in four years. number one. and number two, it would create an additional $1 trillion in economic growth because it would be about buying american, that we have to -- the federal government spends $6 billion a year on everything from ships to steel to buildings and the like. and under my proposal, we're going to make sure that every penny of that has to be made by a company -- >> but respectfully, sir, i'm talking about taxes not spending. >> by the way, i'm going to eliminate a certain amount of the tax. the corporate took should be 28%. you have 19 companies -- in the fortune 500 who don't pay a single penny in tax making billions of dollars. >> why didn't you do it before when you were vice president with obama? >> because you, in fact, passed

it. >> that's right, i got it done and you know what happened? our economy boomed like it's never boomed. >> mr. president -- >> let me finish. >> mr. president, let me pick up on that. you would continue your free market approach. lower taxes. more deregulation, correct? >> not lower taxes for the american people. >> let me -- >> excuse me. >> but in obama's -- you talk about the economy booming. it turns out in obama's final three years as president, more jobs were created, 1.5 million more jobs than in the first three years of your presidency. >> they had the slowest recovery since -- economic recovery since 1929. it was the slowest recovery. also, they took over something that was down here. all you had to do is turn on the lights and you pick up a lot. they had the slowest economic recovery since 1929. let me tell you about the stock market. when the stock market goes up, that means jobs. it also means 401(k)s. if you got in, if you ever became president with your ideas, you want to terminate my taxes.

i'll tell you what, you'll lose half of the companies that have poured in here will leave -- >> half of the companies. >> they'll leave for other places. they will leave and you will have a depression the likes of which you've never seen. >> look -- >> mr. vice president -- >> we inherited the worst recession short of a depression in american history. i was asked to bring it back. we were able to have an economic recovery that created the jobs you're talking about. we hannded him a booming econom. he blew it. >> it wasn't booming. >> he blew it. >> it wasn't booming. it was the weakest recovery since 1929. >> sir, is it fair to say he blew it when, in fact, there was record low unemployment before covid? >> yeah, but because what he did -- even before covid, manufacturing went in the hole. manufacturing went in the hole. >> excuse me, chris, wait. >> number one. number two -- >> chris, they said -- now you're on number two. chris, chris, they said it would take -- >> this guy is something. >> it would take a miracle to bring back manufacturing.

i brought back 700,000 jobs. they brought back nothing. they gave up on manufacturing. standard fair. >> i'm the guy who brought back the automobile industry. i was asked to bring back chrysler and jetergeneral motor right here in the state of ohio and michigan. they're gone. he blew it. >> ohio had the best year they've ever had. michigan had the best year. many car companies came in from germany and japan, went to michigan and went to ohio. and they're not coming to you. >> mr. vice president, go ahead. >> so you take a look at what he's actually done. he's done very little. he's trade deals are the same way. he talks about these great trade deals. he talks about the art of the deal. chinas perfected the art of the steal. we have a higher deficit with china now than we did before. we have the highest trade deficit with mexico. >> china ate your lunch. china ate your lunch, joe, and no wonder your son goes in and he takes out -- he takes out billions of dollars. takes out billions of dollars to

manage. he makes millions of dollars. and also -- >> simply not true. >> while we're at it, why is it, just out of curiosity, the mayor of moscow's wife gave your son $3.5 million. >> that is not true. >> what did he do to do with bu deserve it? >> none of that is true. >> really -- >> mr. president, please. >> totally discredited. >> wait, he didn't get $3.5 million, joe? >> mr. president -- >> that is not true. >> oh, really? >> mr. president! it's an open discussion, please, you -- >> it's a fact. >> you have raised an issue. let the vice president answer. >> he wasn't paid $183,000 a month with no experience in energy? >> my son did nothing wrong. >> i think he did. >> mr. president, let him answer. >> he doesn't want to let me answer, because he knows i have the truth. his position has been totally

discredited. >> by who? the media. >> well, by the media, by our allies, by the world bank. by everyone. as a matter of fact -- >> mr. president, please stop. >> he testified under oath. >> let me ask you this -- >> i'm listening to you. >> he got $3.5 million from moscow. >> he testified under oath in his administration said i did my job, and i did it very well. >> oh, really? i would like to know who they are? >> i'll give you the list. >> go ahead, sir. >> you have already fired most of them. >> some people don't do a good job. >> wait a minute, you get the final word. >> it's hard to get any word in with this clown -- i mean -- >> no, no, mr. president -- >> why did he deserve $3.5 million from moscow? >> here's the deal. we want to talk about families and ethics? i don't want to do that? i mean, his family we could talk

about all night. >> my family -- >> let him -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> mr. president -- >> this is not about -- >> it's about your family. the american people -- that's not true. he doesn't want to talk about what you need. you, the american people. it's about you. that's what we're talking about. that's the end of this segment. we're moving on. >> can i be honest? he stood up, he stood up -- >> the answer to the question is, no. sir -- >> with $1 billion -- >> that is absolutely not true. >> stop! >> you're going to have -- gentlemen! i hate to raise my voice, but here's the deal. we have six segments. we have ended that segment. we're going to go to the next segment. in that segment, you each are

going to have two uninterrupted minutes. in those two minutes, you can say anything you want. i'm going to ask a question about race, but if you want to answer about something else, go ahead. but i think the country would be better served if we allowed both people to speak with fewer interruptions. i'm appealing to you, sir, to do that. >> and him, too. >> frankly, you've been doing more interrupting than that. >> that's all right. but he does plenty. >> less than you have. let's please continue on. the issue of race. vanderbilt bi vice president biden, you say president trump's response to the violence in charlottesville three years ago when he talked about very fine people on both sides is what directly led you to launch this run for president. >> oh, yeah, sure. >> president trump, you have often said that you believe you have done more for black americans than any president with the possible exception of abraham lincoln.

my question for the two of you is why should voters trust you rather than your opponent to deal with the race issues facing this country over the next four years? vice president biden, you go first. >> it's about equity and equality. it's about decency. it's about the constitution. and we have never walked away from trying to require equity for everyone, equality for the whole of america. but we've never accomplished it. we've never walked away from it like he has done. it is true. the reason i got in the race -- close your eyes, remember what those people looked like coming out of fields carrying torches, their veins bulges, just spewing antisemitic bile. a young woman got killed. the president said there were very fine people on both sides. no president has ever said anything like that. the second point i would make is that when floyd was killed, when

mr. floyd was killed, there was a peaceful protest in front of the white house. what did he do? he came out of his bunker, had the military do -- use tear gas on them so he could walk across to a church and hold up a bible and what happened after that? the bishop of that very church said that it was a disgrace. the general who was with him said all he ever wants to do is divide people, not unite people at all. this is a president who has used everything as a dog whistle to try to generate racist hatred, racist division. this is a man who, in fact, you talk about helping african-americans, 1 in 1,000 african-americans has been killed because of the coronavirus. and if he doesn't do something quickly, by the end of the year, 1 in 500 will have been killed. 1 in 500 african-americans. this man, this man, is the savior of african-americans? this man cares at all? this man's done virtually

nothing. look, the fact is, you have to look at what he talks about. you have to look at what he did and what he did has been disastrous for the african-american community. >> president trump, you have two minutes. why should americans trust you over your opponent to deal with race? >> he did a crime bill, 1994, where you called them super predators, african-americans, super predators. and they've never forgotten it. they've never forgotten it. so you call them super predators and i'm letting people out of jail now. you have treated the african-american population community, you have treated the black community as about bad as anybody in this country. you did the 1994 -- that's why if you look at the polls, i'm doing better than any republican has done in a long time, because they saw what you did. you called them super predators, and you've called them worse than that. because you look back at over yourle testimony.

as far as the church is concerned and as far as the generals are concerned, we just got the support of 250 military leaders and generals, total support. law enforcement, almost every law enforcement group in the united states. i have florida, i have texas, i have ohio, i have -- excuse me, portland, the sheriff just came out today and he said i support president trump. i don't think you have any law enforcement. you can't even say the word law enforcement, because if you say those words, you're going to lose all of your radical left supporters. and why aren't you saying those words, joe? why don't you say the words law enforcement? because you know what? if they called us in portland, we would put out that fire in a half an hour. but they won't do it, because they're run by radical left democrats. if you look at chicago, if you look at any place you want to look, seattle, they heard we were coming in the following day, and they put up their hands and we got back seattle. minneapolis, we got it back, joe, because we believe in law and order. but you don't. the top ten cities in just about

the top 40 cities are run by democrats and in many cases, radical left. and they've got you wrapped around their finger, joe, to a point where you don't want to say anything about law and order. and i'll tell you what, the people of this country want and demand law and order and you're afraid to even say it. >> all right. i want to return to the question of race. vice president biden, after the grand jury in the breonna taylor case decided not to charge any of the police with homicide, you said it raises the question "whether justice could be equally applied in america." do you believe that there is a separate but unequal system of justice for blacks in this country? >> yes, there is. there's systemic injustice in this country, in education, in work, and in law enforcement. and the way in which it's enforced. but look, the vast majority of police officers are good, decent, honorable men and women. they risk their lives every day to take care of us.

but there are some bad apples. when they find them, they have to be sorted out. they have to be held accountable. they have to be held accountable. and what i'm going to do as president of the united states is call a -- together an entire group of people at the white house, everybody from the civil rights groups, the police officers, police chiefs and we're going to work this out. so we change the way in which we have more transparency and when these things happen. these cops aren't happy they see what happened to george floyd. these cops aren't happy to see what happened to breonna taylor. most don't like it. but we have to have a system where people are held accountable. and by the way, violence and response is never appropriate. never appropriate. peaceful protest is. >> what is peaceful protest? when they run through the middle of the town and burn down stores and kill people all over the place? that is a peaceful protest. >> president trump, i would like to continue with the issue of

race. i promise we'll get to the issue of law and order in a moment. this month, your administration directed federal agencies to end racial sensitivity training that addresses white privilege or critical race theory. why did you decide to do that, to end racial sensitivity training, and do you believe there is systemic racism in this country, sir? >> i ended it because it's racist. a lot of people that were complaining they were asked to do things that were insane, that it was a radical revolution that was taking place in our military, in our schools, all over the place. and you know it and so does everybody else. >> what does radical -- >> if you are a certain person, you had no status in life. there was sort of a reversal. if you look at the people, we were paying people hundreds of thousands of dollars to teach very bad ideas.

and frankly very sick ideas. and really they were teaching people to hate our country. and i'm not going to do that. i'm not going to allow that to happen. we have to go back to the core values of this country. they were teaching people that our country is a horrible place, it's a racist place, and they were teaching people to hate our country. and i'm not going to allow that to happen. >> vice president biden? >> nobody is doing that. he's just -- >> oh, yes, you just don't know. >> i know a lot more -- >> you don't know. >> let him finish. >> the fact is, there is racial insensitivi insensitivity. people have to be made aware of what other people feel like, what is demeaning to them. they don't want to -- many people don't want to hurt other people's feelings. but it's -- it makes a big difference. it makes a gigantic difference in the way a child is able to grow up and have a sense of self-esteem. it's a little how this guy and his friends look down on so many

people. they look down their nose on people like irish catholics like me that grew up in scranton. they don't look down on people who don't have money or of a different faith. they look down on people who are a different color. in fact, we're all americans. the only way we're going to bring this country together is bring everybody together. there's nothing we cannot do if we do it together. we can take this on and we can defeat racism. >> president trump, sir? >> during the obama-biden administration, there was tremendous division. there was hatred. you look at ferguson, you go to many places. look at what happened in oakland. look what happened in baltimore. frankly, it was more violent than what i'm seeing now. but the reason is the democrats have reason these cities -- they don't want to talk like you about law and order. are you in favor of law and order? >> i'm in favor of law -- >> are you in favor of law and order? >> yes.

>> you asked a question. let him finish. [ overlapping speakers ] >> law and order with justice where people get treated fairly. the fact is, violent crime went down 17% -- 15% in our administration. >> all right. >> it went down much more in ours. >> mr. president, you're going to be very happy, because we're now going to talk about law and order. >> police have trouble with democratic run cities. >> there has been a dramatic increase in homicides in america this summer, particularly. and you often blame that on democratic mayors and governors. but in fact, there have been equivalent spikes in republican led cities like tulsa and ft. worth. so the question is, is this really a party issue? >> i think it's a party issue. you can bring in a couple of examples. but if you look at what's going on in chicago, where 53 people were not and 8 died. shot. if you look at new york where

it's going up like nobody's ever seen anything. the numbers are going up 150%, 200%. >> republican cities. >> it is crazy what's going on. he doesn't want to say law and order because he'll lose his radical left supporters. once he does that, it's ever with. if he ever got to run this country and they ran it the way he would want to, we would have our suburbs would be gone. and you would see problems like you -- >> he wouldn't know a suburb unless he took a wrong turn. >> i know suburbs. >> i was raised in the suburbs. this is not 1950. all these dog whistles don't work anymore. there's many people driving their kids white, black, hispanic to soccer practice like never in the past. he has a failure to deal with covid. they're dying in the suburbs. his failure to deal with the

environment, they're being flooded and burned out. that's why the suburbs are in trouble. >> i do want to talk about this issue of law and order. in the joint recommendation that came from the biden/bernie sanders task force, you talked about "reimagining policing." first of all, what does reimagining policing mean, and do you support -- let me finish the question -- what does reimagining policing mean and do you support the black lives matter call for community control of policing? >> look, what i support is the police having the opportunity to deal with the problems they face. and i'm totally opposed to defunding the police officers. as a matter of fact, local police. the only onedy funding in his budget calls for a $400 million cut in local law enforcement assistance. they need more assistance. they need, when they show up for a 9/11 call, to have someone

with them a psychiatrist to keep them from having force and be able to talk people down. we have to have community policing like we had before, where the officers get to know the people in the communities. that's when crime went down. it didn't go up, it went down. so we have to be -- >> that's not what they're talking about, chris. he's talking about defunding the police. >> that is not true. >> he doesn't have any -- he has no law enforcement support. almost nothing. who do you have, name one group that supports you, name one group that came out and supported you. go ahead. think. we have time. >> we don't have time to do anything -- >> name one law enforcement group that came out and supported you. >> gentlemen, i think i'm going to take back the moderator's role and get to another subject, which is the issue of protests. in many cities that have turned violent. in portland, oregon, we had more than 100 straight days of protests, which i think you

would agree, you talk about peaceful protests. many of those turned into riots. mr. vice president, you say that people who commit crimes should be held accountable. the question i have, as the democratic nominee, and earlier tonight, you said that you are the democratic party right now, have you ever called the democratic mayor of portland or the democratic governor of oregon, and said, hey, you've got to stop this, bring in the national guard, do whatever it takes, but you would stop the days and months of violence in portland? >> i don't hold public office now. i am a former vice president. i've made it clear, i made it clear in my public statements that the violence should be prosecuted. it should be prosecuted. and anyone -- >> but you never called -- excuse me, sir. you have never called for the leaders in portland and in oregon to bring in the national guard and knock off 100 days of

riots? >> they can take care of it if they would stay out of the way. >> oh, really? >> i asked him a question -- >> in the middle of the street, they shot a young man. >> president trump, go ahead, sir. >> by the way, you know, his own former spokesperson said, you know, riots and chaos and violence help his cause. that's what this is all about. >> i don't know who said that. >> i do. >> who? >> i think -- kellyanne conway. >> i don't think she said that. >> the point is that is what he keeps trying to rile everything up. he doesn't want to calm things down. instead of saying let's get everybody together, figure out how to deal with this, he just pours gasoline on the fire constantly. >> and to end this segment, i'm going to give you a minute to answer, sir. you have --

>> i have to answer him? >> you have repeatedly -- >> he made a statement. >> i'm asking you -- >> i would love to end it -- >> if you want to switch seats, we can do that. >> if we would send in the national guard, it would be over. >> you have repeatedly criticized the vice president for not specifically calling out antifa and other extremist groups. are you willing to condemn white supremacists and militia groups and say they need to stand down and nod to add to the violence in these cities as we saw in kenosha and in portland? >> sure, i'm willing to do that. i would say almost everything i see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. >> what are you saying? >> i'm willing to do -- i want to sea peace. >> then do it. >> say it. >> do you want to call them -- what do you want to call them. >> white supremacists.

>> would you like me to condemn. >> proud boys, stand by, but somebody has to do something about antifa and the left. this is a left wing problem. >> antifa is an idea, not an organization. >> you've got to be kidding me. >> gentlemen, we're done, sir. we're moving on to the next -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> can i tell you what? antifa, antifa is a dangerous, radical group. >> we're now moving on to the trump and biden records. when a president -- i'm going to ask a question, when the president seeks a second term, it is generally a referendum on his record. but vice president biden, you like to quote one of your dad's sayings, which is don't compare me to the jaul migalmighty, com

to the alternative. and in this case, you are the alternative. looking at both of your records, why should voters elect you president over your opponent in this segment. president trump, you go first. two minutes. >> because there has never been an administration or president who has done more than i've done in a period of 3 1/2 years. and that's despite the impeachment hoax, and you saw what happened today with hillary clinton where it was a whole big conjob. but despite going through all of these things where i had to fight both flanks, behind me and above, there's never been an administration that's done what i've done. the greatest -- before covid came in, the greatest economy in history, lowest unemployment numbers. everything was good. everything was going -- and by the way, there was unity going to happen. people were calling me for the first time in years, they were calling, and they were saying it's time maybe. and then what happened? we got hit. but now we're building it up again. a rebuilding of the military,

including space force and all of the other things. a fixing of the v.a. which was a mess under him. 308,000 people died because they didn't have proper health care. it was a mess. and we've now got a 91% approval at the v.a. we take care of our vets. we've rebuilt our military. the job that we've done, and some people say the most important thing, by the end of the first term, i'll have approximately 300 federal judges and court of appeals judges, 300. and hopefully three great supreme court judstices. that is a record, the likes of which very few people -- and you know one of the reasons i will have so many judges? because president obama and him left me 128 judges to fill. when you leave office, you don't leave any judges. they left 128 openings. if i were a member of his party, because they have a little different philosophy, i would

say if you left us 128 openings, you can't be a good president. you can't be a good vice president. but i want to thank you, because it gives us almost -- it will probably be above that number by the end of this term, 300 judges. it's a record. >> looking at both your records, why should voters elect you president opposed to president trump? you have two minutes. >> under this president we've become weaker, sicker, poorer, more divided, and more violent. when i was vice president, we inherited a recession. i was asked to fix it. i did. we left him a booming economy. and he caused a recession. with regard to being weaker, the fact is i have gone head to head with putin and made it clear to him we're not going to take any of his stuff. he's putin's puppy. he refuses to say anything about -- >> your son got $3.5 million.

>> no, no. mr. president -- wait a minute, mr. president, your campaign agreed to both sides would get two-minute answers, uninterrupted. your side agreed to it. and why don't you observe what your campaign agreed to as a ground rule, okay, sir? >> he never keeps his sir. >> i'm not asking -- that was a rhetorical question. >> can i get back 30 seconds? >> yes. go ahead. >> thirdly, we're poorer. the billionaires have gotten much more wealthy by a tune of over $300 to $400 billion more since covid. you at home are in more trouble than you were before. in terms of being more violent, when we were in office, there were 15% less violence in america than there is today. he's president of the united states. it's on his watch. and with regard to more divided, the nation can't stay divided. we can't be this way. and speaking of my son, the way

you can talk about the military, the way you talk about them being losers and being -- and just being suckers, my son was in iraq. he spent a year there. he got the bronze star. he got the conspicuous service medal. he was not a loser. he was a patriot. and the people left behind there were heroes. and i resent -- >> are you talking about hunter? >> i'm talking about my sbeau biden. >> hunter got thrown out of the military. he was thrown out, dishonorably discharged for cocaine use, and he didn't have a job until you became vice president. and once you were vice president he made a fortune in ukraine, moss to you, acow and various o. and he didn't have a job. >> my son, like a lot of people you know at home, had a drug problem. he's overtaken it. he's fixed it. he's worked on it. and i'm proud of it.

>> why was he given tens of millions dollars. >> president trump, president trump, we have -- we've been through this. i think the american people would rather hear about more substantial subjects. as the moderator, sir, i'm going to make a judgment, sir. >> how do you get $3.5 million from the mayor of moscow? [ overlapping speakers ] >> you know, i would like to talk about climate change. >> so would i. >> okay. >> the forest fires in the west are raging now. they have burned millions of acres. they have displaced hundreds of thousands of people. when state officials there blamed the fires on climate change, mr. president, you said i don't think the science knows. over your four years, you have pulled the u.s. out of the paris climate accord, you have rolled back a number of obama

environmental records. what do you believe about the science of climate change and what will you do in the next four years to confront it? >> i want crystal clean water and air, i want beautiful, clean air. we have now the lowest carbon -- if you look at our numbers right now, we are doing phenomenally. but i haven't destroyed our businesses. our businesses aren't put out of commission. if you look at the paris accord, it was a disaster from our stand point. and people are actually very happy about what's going on, because our businesses are doing well. as far as the fires are concerned, you need forest management. in addition to everything else. the forest floors are loaded up with trees, dead trees that are years old, and they're like kinder. you drop a cigarette in there, and the whole forest burns down. >> what do you believe about the science of climate change, sir? >> i believe that we have to do everything we can to have

emaculate air, emaculate water, and do whatever else we can that's good. we're planting a billion trees, the billion tree project. >> do you believe that human pollution, greenhouse gas emissions contributes to the global warming. >> i think a lot of things do. but to an extent, yes. but i also think we have to do better management of our forests. every year, i get the call, california's burning. california's burning. if that was cleaned, if you had forest management, good forest management, you wouldn't be getting those calls. in europe, they have forest cities. they maintain and manage their forests. i was with the head of a major company. it's a forest city. he said sir, we have trees that are far more -- they ig variety mu -- ignite much easier than california. i said at some point, you can't

every year have hundreds of thousands of acres of land just burned to the ground. that's burning down because of a lack of management. >> you believe in the science of climate change, why have you rolled back the obama clean power plan which limited carbon emissions in power plants? >> because it was driving energy prices through the sky. >> why have you relaxed fuel economy standards that will create more pollution. >> not really. the car is much less expensive and a much safer car, and you're talking about a tiny difference. what would happen, because of the cost of the car, you would have at least double and triple the number of cars purchased. we have the old slugs out there that are 10, 12 years old. if you did that, the car would be safer, much cheaper. >> but in california -- >> it would take a lot of cars off the market, because people could afford a car. now, by the way, we'll see how that turns out. but a lot of people agree with

me, many people. the car has gotten so expensive, because they have computers all over the place for an extra little bit of gasoline. and i'm okay with electric cars, too. i'm all for electric cars. i've given big incentives for electric cars. but what they have done in california is just crazy. >> vice president biden, i would like you to respond to the president's climate change record, but i want to ask you about you proposed $2 trillion in green jobs. you talk about new limits, not abolishing, but new limits on fracking, ending the use of fossil fuels to generate electricity by 2035 and zero net emission of greenhouse emissions by 2050. the president says a lot of these things would tank the economy and cost millions of jobs. >> he's wrong, number one. number two, if in fact during our administration, i was in charge -- able to bring down the cost of renewable energy to cheaper than or as cheap as coal

and gas and oil. nobody is going to build another coal fired plant in america. no one is going to build another oil fired plant in america. they're going to move to renewable energy, number one. number two, we're going to make sure we're able to take the federal fleet and turn it into a neat that's run on their electric vehicles, making sure we can do that. we're going to put 500,000 charging stations, and all of the highways that we'll be building in the future. we're going to build an economy that, in fact, is going to provide for the ability of us to take 4 million buildings and make sure that they, in fact, are weatherized in a way that they will add mitt significantly less gas and oil because the heat will not be going out. there's so many things that we can do now to create thousands and thousands of jobs. we can get to net zero in terms of energy production by 2035. not only not costing people jobs, creating jobs.

creating millions of good-paying jobs. not $15 an hour, but prevailing wage by having a new infrastructure that, in fact, is green. and the first thing i will do is i will rejoin the paris accord. i will join the paris accord because with us out of it, look what's happening. it's all falling apart. talk about someone who has no relationship with foreign policy. brazil, the rainforest of brazil, is being torn down, ripped down. more carbon is absorbed in that rainforest and every bit of carbon that's emitted in the united states. instead of doing something about that, i would be gathering up and making sure we had the countries of the world coming up with $20 billion and saying here's $20 billion, stop -- stop tearing down the forest. and if you don't, then you're going to have significant economic consequences. >> what about the argument that president trump basically says that you have to balance

environmental interests and economic interests and he's drawn his line. >> he hasn't drawn a line. he still makes sure -- he wants to make sure that methane is not a problem. you can now admit more methane without a problem. >> not true. >> he says you don't have to have mileage standards for automobiles. >> not true. >> it's all true. >> he's talking about the green new deal, it's not $20 billion as you said, it's $100 trillion. >> i'm talking about -- >> where they want to rip down buildings and rebuild the buildings. it's the dumbest, most ridiculous, where airplanes are out of business, where two-car systems are out. where they want to take out the cows, too. that's not true either, right? this is a $100 trillion -- that's more money that our country could make in 100 years. >> let me -- wait a minute, sir.

i have studied your plan, and it includes upgrading 4 million buildings, weatherizing 2 million homes over four years, building 1.5 million energy efficient homes. so the question becomes, some the president is saying, i think some people who support the president would say that sounds like it's going to cost a lot of money and hurt the economy. >> it's going to create thousands and millions of jobs. good-paying jobs. >> $100 trillion. >> it's going to create millions of good-paying jobs. and these tax incentives for these people to weatherize. it's going to make the economy much safer. look how much we're paying now to deal with the hurricanes. he has an answer for hurricanes. maybe we should drop a nuclear weapon on them. >> i never said that. you made it up. >> and here's the deal. >> you make up a lot of things. >> we are going to be in a position where we can create hard, hard, good jobs by making

sure the environment is clean and we are all in better shape. we spend billions of dollars now, billions of dollars on floods, hurricanes, rising seas. we're in real trouble. look what's happened just in the midwest with these storms that come through and wipe out entire sections and counties in iowa. that didn't happen before. because of global warming. we make up 15% of the world's problems. we, in fact -- but the rest of the world we have to get them to come along. that's why we have to get back into -- back into the paris accord. >> gentlemen -- >> wait a minute, chris, why didn't he do it for 47 years? china sends up real dirt into the air, russia does, india does, they all do. we're supposed to be good. and by the way, he made a couple of statements. the green new deal is $100 trillion. not $20 billion. >> that is not my plan. the green new deal is not my

plan. >> gentlemen -- >> he made a statement about the military. he and his friends made it up and then they went with it. i never said it about the military. he called the military stupid bastards. he said, stupid bastards. he said it. play it. >> go ahead, mr. vice president, answer his final question. >> the final question is, i can't remember which of all his rantings. >> i'm having a little trouble myself. about the economy and about this question of whether it's going to cost -- >> the economy. >> i mean, the green new deal and your environmental changes. >> the green new deal will pay for itself as we move forward. we're not going to build plants that, in fact, are polluting plants. >> do you support the green new deal? >> no, i don't. >> oh, you don't? that's a big statement. >> i support the biden plan that

i put forward. the biden plan, which is different than what he calls the radical green new deal. >> gentlemen, final segment. election integrity. as we meet tonight, millions of americans are receiving mail-in ballots already going to vote early. how confident should we be that this will be a fair election and what are you prepared to do over the next five plus weeks, because it will not only be to election day, but also counting some mail-in ballots after election day, what are you prepared to do to reassure the american people that the next president will be the legitimate winner of this election in this final segment, mr. vice president, you go first. >> prepared to let people go. go to iwillvote.com, decide how you're going to vote and by which means you're going to vote. his own homeland security director and fbi director says there's no evidence at all that

mail-in ballots are a source of being manipulated and cheating. they said that. the fact is, there are going to be millions of people, because of covid, that are going to be voting by mail-in ballots, like he does, by the way. he sits behind the resolute desk and sends his ballot to florida. number two, we're going to make sure those people who want to vote in person are able to vote because enough poll watchers are there to make sure they can socially distance. the polls are open on time and the polls stay open until the votes are counted. this is about trying to dissuade people from voting, because he's trying to scare people into thinking that it's not going to be legitimate. show up and vote. you will determine the outcome of this election. vote, vote, vote. if you're able to vote early in your state, vote early. if you're able to vote in person, vote in person. vote whatever way is the best way for you. because you will -- he cannot stop you from being able to determine the outcome of this

election. and in terms of whether or not the votes are counted, that will be accepted. if i win, that will be accepted. if i lose, that will be accepted. by the way, if he says he's not sure what he's going to accept, let me tell you something, it doesn't matter. because if we get the votes, it's going to be all over. he's going to go. he can't stay in power. it won't happen. it won't happen. so vote. just make sure you understand you have it in your control to determine what this country is going to look like the next four years. is it going to change or are you going to get four more years of these lies? >> mr. president, two minutes. >> so when i listen to joe talking about a transition, there's been no transition from when i won. i won that election, and if you look at crooked hillary clinton, if you look at all of the different people, there was no transition, because they came after me trying to do a coup. they came after me spying on my campaign. they started from the day i won and even before i won. from the day i came down with

the escalator with our first lady. they were a disgrace to our country, and we've caught them all. we've got it all on tape. and by the way, you gave the idea for the logan act against general flynn. we caught you in a sense. and president obama was sitting in the office, he knew about it, too. so don't tell me about a free transition. as far as the ballots are concerned, it's a disaster. a solicited ballot is okay. you're soliciting, you're asking, they send it back, you send it back. i did that. they're sending millions of ballots all of the country. there's fraud. they found them in creeks. they found some with the name, just happened to have the name trump in a waste paper basket. they're being sent all over the place. they sent two in a democrat area, they sent out a thousand ballots, everybody got two ballots. this is going to be a fraud like you've ever seen. the other thing, it's nice, on

november 3rd, you're watching and you'll see who won the election. i think we're going to do well, because people are happy with the job we've done. but we might not know for months, because these ballots are going to be all over. take a look at what happened in manhattan. take a look at what happened in new hampshire. take a look at what happened in virginia and other places. they're not losing 2%, 1%, which is too much. they're losing 30%, 40%. it's a fraud. and it's a shame. and can you imagine where they say you have to have your ballot in by november 10th. november 10th? that means that's seven days after the election, in theory, should have been announced. it's all run by democrats. it's a rigged election. >> president trump, you have been charging for moments that mail-in balloting is going to be a disaster. you say it's rigged. that it's going to lead to fraud. but in 2018, 31 million people

voted mail-in voting. that was a quarter, more than a quarter of all the voters that year, cast their ballots by mail. now that millions of mail-in ballots have gone out, what are you going to do about it, and are you counting on the supreme court, including a justice barrett, to settle any disputes? >> i think i'm counting on them to look at the waballots, i hop we don't need them. but for the ballots, i think so. because what's happening is incredible. i read today where at least 1% of the ballots for 2016 were invalidated. they take them -- we don't like them, they throw them away. >> if there are millions going out right now -- >> you do a solicited ballot. >> i'm asking you about the fact that millions of people -- >> you go and vote. like they used to. >> i'm talking about -- >> chris, you either do a

solicited ballot, where they send it in, they send it back. they have mailmen -- did you see what's going on? take a look at west virginia, mailmen selling the ballots. they're being sold, dumped in rivers. this is a horrible thing for our country. this is not going to end well. this is not going to end well. >> mr. vice president -- >> five states that had mail-in ballots for the last decade or more, and you don't have to solicit the ballot. it's sent to you. it's sent to your home. what we're saying is, it has to be a postmark by the time -- by election day. if it doesn't get in until the 7th, 8th, 9th, it still should be counted. he's just afraid of counting the votes. >> you're wrong, you're wrong. >> i want to continue on this. >> chris, he's so wrong. >> excuse me, vice president biden, the biggest problem, in fact, over the years with mail-in voting has not been

fraud, historically. it has been that sizable numbers, sometimes hundreds of thousands of ballots are thrown out because they have not been properly filled out or there is some other irregularity or they missed the deadline. so are you concerned that the supreme court, with a justice barrett, will settle any dispute? >> i am concerned that any court would settle this, because here's the deal. when you file -- when you get a ballot and you fill it out, you're supposed to have an affidavit. if you didn't know you have someone say this is me, you should be able to, if, in fact, you can verify that's you before the ballot is thrown out, that's sufficient to count the ballot because someone made a mistake and not dotting the correct i. who they voted for, testify, say who they voted for. say it's you. that is totally legitimate. >> when you have 80 million ballots sent in swamping the system, you know it can't be

done. you know it can't. and already there's been fraud. >> gentlemen, final question. in eight states, election workers are prohibited currently by law, eight states, from even beginning to process ballots, each take them out of the envelopes and flatten them, until election day. that means that it's likely, because there's going to be a huge increase in mail-in balloting, that we are not going to know on election night who the winner is, that it could be days or weeks. >> it could be months. >> until we find out who the new president is. so first for you, sir, finally for the vanderbilice president. will you urge your supporters to stay calm during this extended period, not to engage in any civil unrest, and will you pledge tonight that you will not declare victory until the election has been independently certified. president trump, you go first.

>> i'm urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully, because that's what has to happen. i am urging them to do it. as you know today, there was a big problem. in philadelphia, they went into watch. they're called poll watchers. they were thrown out. they weren't allowed to watch. you know why? because bad things happen in philadelphia. bad things. i am urging my people, i hope it's going to be a fair election. if it's going to be a fair election, i am 100% on board. but if i see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated, i can't go along with that. from a common sense -- >> what does that mean? >> it means you have a fraudulent election. >> what would you do about that? >> these people aren't equipped to handle it. number two, they cheat. they cheat. hey, they found ballots in a waste paper basket three days ago, and they all had the -- military ballots. they all had the name trump on

them. >> vice president biden, will you urge your supporters to stay calm while the vote is counted and will you pledge not to declare victory until the election is independently certified? >> yes. and here's the deal. they count the ballots, as you pointed out. some of these ballots can't even be opened until election day. and if there's thousands of ballots, it's going to take time to do it. by the way, our military, they've been voting by ballots for the end of the civil war in effect. and that's what's going to happen. why is it for them somehow not fraudulent? it's the same process. it's honest. no one has established at all that there is fraud related to mail-in ballots. that somehow it's a fraudulent process. >> it's been established. take a look at carolyn maloney's race. >> vice president biden, go

ahead. >> here's the deal. the fact is, i will accept it. and he will too. you know why? because once the winner is declared after all the ballots are counted, all the votes are counted, that will be the end of it. that will be the end of it. if it's me, in fact, fine. if it's not me, i will support the outcome. and i'll be a president, not just for the democrats, i'll be a president for democrats and republicans. and this guy -- >> i want an honest ballot count. >> gentlemen, this is the end of this debate. >> i want an honest ballot count. i think he does, too. >> to be continued, as in more debates as we go on. president trump, vice president biden, it's been an interesting hour and a half. i want to thank you both for participating in the first of three debates that you have agreed to engage in. we want to thank case western reserve university for hosting this debate. the next debate will be one week from tomorrow, october 7th at

the university of utah in salt lake city. the two vice presidential nominees, vice president mike pence and senator kamala harris will debate at 9:00 p.m. eastern. we hope you watch. until then, thank you. and good night. [ applause ] >> it's all over including the shouting in cleveland, as we will keep our camera trained on the hall at the end of this, as you may know, a limited crowd present. what a dark event we have just witnessed. the tip of the hat to mack mccarthy. if thats don't a mess, it will do until the mess gets here. as difficult as that was to watch, as the spouses now join both men on stage, as bracing as it is to realize this behavior is taking place in pursuit of the job we used to refer to as leader of the free world, there was an incumbent on that stage tonight, a president who passed

up an opportunity more than once to unify. a president who passed up an opportunity to pay even passing tribute to joe biden's dead son, who served his country. a president who passed up an opportunity to denounce supremacy groups like the proud boys and their ilk, telling them instead to stand back and added for good measure, stand by. we'll stay on this as all of the participants have cleared the stage now, including the moderator chris wallace, who has been the subject of a lot of talk already tonight. it was all new territory for those who have followed the presidency just even as citizens over the course of our lifetime. the president could not agree on mask wearing, could not give a full throated endorsement of that. he tried his best to diminish

any assurances about the safety and integrity of our coming election. took him 47 minutes to get to hunter biden, a subject he returned to again and again. his popinion of the administrative job on coronavirus was a great job, 200,000 dead to the contrary. and about his remark to inject disinfectant in the white house briefing room, he now says that was said in sarcasm. as i toss to my colleagues, rachel maddow, joy reid, nicolle wallace, there is so much here in just going through my notes, it also strikes me, gang, that, for the first time, at one of these we heard a challenger say into the camera about his opponent, the incumbent president, if he loses, he's going to go. he can't stay in power. vast reason to say that. just a first in our history,

rachel. >> yeah, the first time you've ever had to give the american people a reason to imagine a future where the voters decide the outcome of an election, not a strong man who says he'll refuse to go because any election that doesn't reinstate him in power is by definition illegitimate. i mean, i didn't have the night that i expected to have as a person involved in this coverage. i spent the last few days and weeks and certainly many hours preparing my knowledge base so that we could do some, you know, sober, rapid fire fact checking on what both candidates said from the stage. we'll do that. that will happen in days ahead. we'll do some of that tonight. but what happened on that debate stage was unlike anything that's ever happened on a presidential debate stage ever before. the clear choice that the american people have to make

doesn't much feel like a choice between biden and trump. it feels like a choice between a type of civic, formal politics, where there are debates which have rules, where people on both sides may talk over each other a little bit, but at least they are participating in the same process. and we ultimately decide which one of them we want to be the leader. or we have what we have seen tonight, and what this incumbent president is promising, which is a monstrous, unintelligible display of loggeria which has nothing to do with civic discourse, with debate, or even with the integrity of the contest they're about to approach. the fact that they ended this by him saying the election doesn't matter to him, that ballots -- that 80 million ballots will overwhelm the system, you know it, therefore the ballots shouldn't be counted.

he is not participating in a re-election scam pain, he's arguing that he should stay in office and the election town negated. he treated the debate that way, with just increasingly wild and obscene lies, including lying about the vice president's dead son in iraq as a way of trying to score points on it. this is the sort of thing that shouldn't happen. this sort of debate shouldn't happen in a democracy. not one in which we decide or think we choose between candidates based on them proposing competing sides of an argument. this is not the night i expected. >> look, i just want to give voice to what is probably the elephant in the room for those that have moderated debates. chris wallace did not act as a

moderator. donald trump was the abused, and chris wallace was among those abused. i have participated in debate negotiations. there are rules. president trump didn't follow them. and the debate moderator didn't hold his feet to the fire. and everyone who was suggesting there was nothing he could do, try driving down the freeway in a rainstorm with an 8-year-old in the back screaming. there is always something you can do, something you can deprive a misbehaved child of. in this case, it was president trump's need of air time. i wonder what the conversations being had among the subsequent moderators about what to do with an abusive participant. president trump abused the process, he abused the debate moderator. he sought to abuse his opponent. now, men and women will react to this very differently. i think in the face of abuse, there's just a human instinct to defend. and so i think men might feel

like joe biden missed opportunities to punch back. i think women might have appreciated that this didn't descend into pure violence. this felt like an assault on our senses and our presidential campaign process. it felt like another assault on our politics, because that's what it was. however, i said this before the debate started. this was the plan. they prepped for this. he didn't wing it. he lied when he said being president is all the prep i need. i think the question now becomes why? what's the plan? that abiliin't going to win you single vote from moms in the suburbs. i have worked for three presidential campaigns, and that is not how you talk to them. so what are they doing? >> well, it's a display of disdain and abuse for the

system, because he thinks the system is about to turn him out of office. so he's running against the election, not against joe biden. >> the thing is, as i was watching it, first of all, for the first 15 minutes, i wouldn't understand what anyone was saying, because as you said, i've seen the newt gingrich debate strategy when he would attack the moderator. there is the attack the moderator strategy and try to litigate the moderator. this question is unfair, why are you asking that? i've seen the strategy of try to belittle and throw your opponent off and make a mistake. trump used that in 2016 against hillary clinton. he would mock her and try to throw her off her game. there's all sorts of strategies. this was not -- if it was a debate strategy, i would be surprised. maybe it was. it just seemed like a man who was out of control. that president trump physically could not stand to hear truth about himself.

i started writing down, trying to take notes like you. i started trying. i tried. when joe biden -- and i thought his best moment is when he started talking about his son. he said my son served his country, he was not a loser and not a sucker. this was a moving moment. when it was a chance for the country to take a step back and listen to what he was saying about his son, president trump physically couldn't let him get to the end of the sent tense. >> and he interjected, who was that? >> he thought, this is my chance to go after hunter biden. he wasn't talking about hunter biden, he was talking about beau biden, who is dead. and trump didn't have the decency or the humanity to let him finish his thought about his son who is dead. because president trump essentially was not there to display even being president. i started googling the lincoln douglas debates, right? as i'm watching this, i'm thinking to myself, we as a

country, we're the established democracy after worl ward war i. we were going to demonstrate to other countries what it was about. the idea of civilized debate is such a core part of it. this was embarrassing for me. somebody was tweeting, i hope the rest of the world wasn't watching. watching us become this. this was not a debate. it might have been a strategy to just don't let biden say anything that's negative. as soon as he starts talking, dive in there and get it. >> it was a display. >> it was a display, a performance, and it was a performance that included a refusal to condemn white supremacy, which is the greatest single threat to the homeland. it was a performance which he refused to let the moderator moderate. when you look at someone with such an insatiable need to dominate and control. i think it's possible that they

see what steve kornacki showed us, this is a race electorally out of reach. if their mission was to change the dynamics of the race, they did nothing to change the dynamics of the race. but maybe they fortified the fo supporters they need to keep the faith at one donald trump closed on. >> i don't think this was like a maga moment. i don't think trump supporters and trump tv, you know, is going to be like, wow, that was a great performance from donald trump. >> who knows? >> you couldn't understand him either. i think this was not about trump displaying things that his base would like. i think this was about trump saying this process is legitimate. moderator, i don't even know what that is. we've got two minutes? forget that. i'm talking over you. anyoner, anyoner, anyoner. i am running against this process. there is no peaceful democratic transition of power in this country because we don't have a democratic transition of power because i'm the one in charge. it's a small "d" anti-democrat. >> 100%.

i think he was essentially saying i won't even allow you to hear the critique of me. it's just me, and you're going to hear me whether the moderator is talking, whether joe biden is talking. this is me. this is my -- >> i'm going to make it so you can't hear anything. >> nothing. >> but here's what he needed and what he wants. he wants good press, and he wanted a good 90 minutes of air time. he understood at a cellular level that this was it. >> yeah. >> that these are the last times to get 90 minutes of air time. and i do not think that the result was for historians like jon meacham to say this was the lowest moment in the american presidency. i think he will be enraged by the coverage of the performance. >> yes. >> and while i think the performance was what they planned it to be, i do not think the reception will be something that will make him happy. i think he was looking to change the dynamics of the race, and he will not have with this performance. >> i have a question for you, nicolle. if you were joe biden's team, would you do another one? because the point i think that

rachel made is true. at this point we're not doing -- we're trying to do these -- they're sort of functional performative pieces of our democracy and hang on to the last little bits of what we understand our democracy to be about. so we do the right things. we do our debates. we try to look at the polls and look at this as a -- it's so abnormal now. >> yeah. >> it's so far down the -- >> joe biden has to go because you don't stand up to a bully who is trying to do whatever he's doing, lift his leg and pee on our democracy by not showing up and standing up to the bully. you stand there because you made a deal, and you hold up your end of the deal. i don't joe biden did himself any harm tonight. >> joe biden won this in -- >> running away. >> when joe biden turned to the camera and talked to the american people, which was his gambit. that was his trick tonight. he would stop engaging with this and just talk to the camera. >> those were the best moments. >> that was the only part of the debate that was coherent. >> you're like someone remembered i'm watching. donald trump, it's like you

imagined him in that house rattling around after whatever is on, hannity or laura ingraham and like shouting at the walls. it's like tonight there was a camera on him, and that's what we saw. this was like him unfiltered yelling at the tv after the fox program -- >> where biden didn't lose his control. he did do some cathartic things. will this guy shut up, calling hmm a clown. >> he did for the record call him a racist, which in the old days would be the headline. >> and the worst president -- he said, you are the worst president that we have ever had. by the way, on the subject of the proud boys, he didn't just not condemn them. he said -- >> he said stand by. >> stand by for what? >> direction? >> morse code blinking? what was that? >> i want to bring back into the conversation david plouffe. he is the former campaign manager to president obama and the last person we spoke with before we left this planet and spent 90-something minutes in a satellite asteroid orbit that

felt very dangerous. david, what did you think? >> well, i mean this is another democratic norm that donald trump has shattered. >> yeah. >> even in '16, he treated the presidential debates somewhat normally for him. but i just want to echo what nicolle said. we talked about this before the debate. let's focus on where the race is. if you look at all the battleground states on average, let's say biden is up 50-45, which means trump is losing. people are voting now. 10% of the volt te in wisconsins already been cast. donald trump was in great political danger before the pandemic. part of it was people thought he was a jerk. they thought he was narcissistic. so i agree with nicolle. the voters he needs to pull away from joe biden -- this isn't simply winning undecides. he has to win all of the undecideds basically, juice turnout. that performance tonight i think is going to reinforce people's decision that donald trump does not deserve another four years. the other thing is nicolle knows well it's not just a debate night. what are we going to be talking about tomorrow and thursday and

friday? >> right. >> and i think a couple things. one, the fact that president trump refused to offer any sympathy to vice president biden for his dead son who served in iraq, beau biden. remarkable moment that i think will be replayed over and over that people will share on social media. the other thing which i assume the joe biden campaign will do a good at pushing about. i thought juone of his stronges lines, when he said, when you said that hundreds of thousands of people have died and that just is what it is, it is what it is because you are who you are. >> right. >> i thought that was a strong moment, and i think the entire debate really encapsulated the fact that donald trump won't change. and i agree with you. i think trump in his mind tonight was probably thinking vladimir putin doesn't have to do these debates. why should i? >> example. >> why should i have to go through this? debates, voting, elections, this is my country. this is my white house. again he likes to talk about the suburbs. suburban voters are fleeing and

i think today will only intensify that. >> that's a very, very, very good point. >> the suburbs are really where he's hurting. if you look at the philadelphia suburbs, that's where he's bleeding. the women voters he's been trying to terrify about cory booker, when they watch this performance, this screaming, as you said, wandering through the white house in his bedroom slippers and robe performance on television, does he -- i don't know if he thinks that people are going to gravitate toward it or if he's not capable of caring anymore because he's left the planet. at this point he's just an angry autocrat who's desperate to hang on to power and who sees the legal threat ahead of him and the potential seizure of assets in his future and the potential for closure of trump tower, and he's mad, and he does not understand why he has to even sit for a debate or sit for an election. >> he thinks the whole thing is beneath him and something that shouldn't be touched by his power. >> absolutely. >> and that is why -- i mean i think that there's no question that the biden campaign has to,

you know, agree to turn up at whatever debates there's going to be. if you're the presidential commission on debates, though, what happened to chris wallace tonight? people will blame chris wallace, and i'm sure he deserves some level of blame. but i think he was in a position where he was there with a target on him and he got splattered by what the president decided to do with this process. is the presidential commission on debates going to put other journalists, other moderators in the position of being attacked and cheated on in that way? i mean without them having some way to control it, some way to cut the mic or some other way to assert control. >> i think some of the most uncomfortable moments were when chris wallace was saying, mr. president, this one will make you happy. like an abused person freaking out, he was trying to -- one candidate was out of control, and the neutral moderator was trying to calm him down by saying things like you're going to like the next question.

that's not normal. >> but every time he said, mr. president, mr. president, mr. president, please. it was just a reminder that, oh, my god. these were not two untested politicians up there winging it. one of these people is the president of the united states. that is humiliating for us as a country. this was a joke. >> yeah. >> this was a mess. >> and the president, you know -- the parties organize the primary debates, and there's a lot of fighting within the primary process sometimes as to whether outside groups should be allowed to organize town halls or debates or mini debates. but when it comes to a general election, both major parties have a nominee. this is the presidential commission on debates. it is neutral moderators who do something that is carried by every single network everywhere in the country. this is part of our civic process that has just been undone. >> yeah. >> by donald trump saying, i'm not doing this. i'm just going to get up there and talk the whole time and screw you. and he didn't bite the head off a bat, which was what -- but this was the proverbial

equivalent of him biting the head off a bat. >> it was. >> we need to think about how we regain this civic institution, which is a debate that is actually a debate that is between two candidates, that is moderated by a neutral observer who's in control. >> yeah. >> we have to get that back in the same way we need to get back the norms of peaceful tran sigsz of power and all the other things he says don't apply to him. >> to david plouffe's point, he was that four years ago, and this is the abuse of the state that we saw showcased during the entire rnc convention, right? this is now as the head of state, donald trump is abusing the things that aren't his. they're ours. the presidency doesn't belong to him. he's supposed to be its steward. so to see the deterioration of his conduct in the intervening four years is another alarming thing. >> yeah, yeah. >> and his own deterioration. i'm sorry to say it. i know it's unpolite to talk about it, but this is a diminished character. he seemed out of control. >> cognitively or emotionally? >> he seemed he couldn't emotionally control himself, that he wasn't capable of him,

that maybe he didn't have the capability to stop himself. >> a thought of people thought biden's temper would get the better of him tonight and he did show it a couple of times but he was the one in control while the president was. >> something else. >> out of it. we are going to hand over now to our colleague brian williams. "the 11th hour" starts right now. >> with thanks back to you. to rachel maddow, joy reid, and nicolle wallace, thank you all in our studios in new york. and with that, good evening to you at home once again. welcome to a special expanded debate night edition of "the 11th hour." this was day 1,349 of the trump administration. just 35 days to go now until the presidential election. the first of what we still think will be three presidential debates for this 2020 campaign is now history, such as it is. as expected, it was conten