welcome to wednesday. it is "meet the press daily." i'm chuck todd. the next 34 days and beyond are going to be some of the most chaotic our democracy has seen in modern times. why shouldn't we make that prediction give what we saw last night? moments ago, we heard joe biden speak about the debate. he called the president's performance a national embarrassment. he called on far right groups to cease and desist, and committed to participating in the next debate. we'll have more reaction in a moment. the president turned last night into an utter disaster, making it clear his strategy is to up end the democracy right now. arguably the low point came when he refused to denounce white se peop supremacy at all. >> are you willing to condemn

white supremacists -- >> sure. >> and to say they need to stand down and not add to the violence as we saw in kenosha and portland. >> i'm prepared to do that. i would say almost everything i see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. >> what are you saying -- >> i'm willing to do -- i want to sea peace. >> say it. >> you want to -- what do you want to call them? >> white supremacists. >> proud boys? stand back and stand by. but i'll tell you what, i'll tell you what, somebody has to do something about antifa and the left, because this is not a right wing problem. >> those words, stand back and stand by are being treated as a rallying cry for this neofascist group called the proud boys. at the same time, the president said the election was being rigged against him and urged his

followers to take action. >> will you urge your supporters to stay calm and not to engage in any civil unrest, and will you pledge that you will not declare victory until the election has been independently certified? president trump, you go first? >> i'm urging my support toers go into the polls and watch very carefully, because that's what has to happen. i'm urging them to do it. i am urging my people, i hope it's going to be a fair election. if it's fair, i'm 100% on board. but if i see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated, i can't go along with that. >> the fallout from last night has been intense and revealing. the president's allies are trying to claim his comments about the proud boys were a rebuke of the group, though that's not how they saw it or how any reasonable person would have heard it. the president also has gone after the moderator, chris

wallace. the response from republicans on capitol hill to the president's performance has been, as you might guess, muted. because what else do you ever hear from that side of the aisle on that stuff these days? democrats are outraged, but some are disappointed that biden wasn't sharper last night. and we have reaction coming from voters around the country, which we'll have more on in a moment. let's dive into all of this. mike is following the biden campaign's stop in ohio. dasha burns is in michigan. chris jansing is in avon, ohio. and with us is robert costa, an msnbc political analyst. mike, you're on the trail right now with the candidate who is out there. biden world today, obviously trying to make the most out of what is a collective mostly agreed upon analysis that the president blew up that debate

last night. >> reporter: yeah, that's right, chuck. they've gone from the train wreck back to the train. i want to explain a little bit about what you're seeing behind me. this has been the unusual biden beat, as it were. he was speaking a couple hundred feet from where i'm standing, just at the train station itself. what's been happening without any notice of where he's going to be, we've seen these crowds spontaneously gather. a big biden crowd, but it's further down the way, there was a sizable trump contingent. it's been interesting, as we try to cover this campaign, what these events have turned into. in terms of what this debate, where we go from here, you saw the former vice president in his remarks try to cast what he thought this debate should be about. he wanted it to be people at their kitchen tables. this train tour is about him being able to say president trump forgot about the forgotten man, that he's the one with empathy, sympathy to understand the plight of the working class.

and biden's team does think he had some good moments last night, that he was able to really stand up to him on the issue of the coronavirus. you know, the idea of it is what it is because you are who you are. but chuck, there was an awful lot that joe biden left on the table in terms of attacks. the president really effective at times trying to put biden up against his own party. and also hurt him with parts of his base. biden didn't respond at all when the president laid into him on issues with criminal justice reform and the crime bill specifically. and that's i think one reason why the biden team wants to continue to participate in these debates. they see them as opportunities as they continue to talk to the american people. but they have now as a boilerplate, an understanding of what to expect. they said they expected something just as chaotic. but as biden put it, the next town hall forum, this might play better into way biden wants to approach this race and he'll

have a chance to do so with lester holt on monday, as he holds the primetime town hall with us as well. >> we heard the biden campaign say no, no, we're going to go through all these debates. do they want more -- do they want the moderator to be able to cut mics, is there going to be a renegotiation with the debate commission? >> reporter: well, what the biden campaign said last night, there is always ongoing discussions with the -- it looks like the former vice president is driving by me. we know part of what they're going to be doing on this train tour is making some local stops. so another interesting insight. the biden campaign said there are these ongoing conversations with the commission. it's cheer they'll hook to maybe fix some of the issues. i don't know that they'll succeed, because it would take some buy-in from the trump side to the cutting of the mics. but let's offer our good wishes to kristen welker who will have

the task of trying to wrangle this in a couple of weeks. >> i think a lot of us are feeling their pain this morning, that's for sure. mike, i'll let you catch one the candidate. let me move to grand rapids, that's where we find dasha burns. we checked in yesterday with what people were looking for. i imagine if folks were looking for substance, they know they didn't get it with the debate. how did the debate play, again, debate in quotes, play with the voters out there in kent county? >> reporter: right, chuck. well, we're coming up on our one-year anniversary with some of the voters we've been following here sense last november. i want to reintroduce our viewers to jerry steponovich. he's been one of the big surprises. i met him at a farmer's market during the impeachment inquiry. at that time, he was calling it a witch hunt. he was a big supporter of the

president back then. but sense then, and in part due to the pandemic and some of the other headlines we've seen on this twisty election cycle, he has pulled back a little bit in his support of the president and he's now very much on the fence. i have jerry with me now. so jerry, what did you make of what you saw last night? >> it looked like two kindergarteners fighting in the sandbox. it was hard to comprehend, hard to understand. wasn't sure what was going on. didn't really get an answer on anything from either side. >> the last time we spoke to you, you were sort of back in the trump camp a little bit after the rnc. what did you think of the president's handling of the debate last night? >> i think he came off like a bully. he did bully mr. biden a little bit. of course, he should have just shut his mouth at certain times and let joe explain. other times joe should have shut

his mouth and let the president explain. >> the question everyone out there is wanting to ask, did last night help clarify anything for you? >> not a thing, really. i think we need one more debate, at least one more debate. because i think we need some more issues asked. it was more of a caucus last night between those two than any substantial answers. >> jerry, we've been on this roller coaster with you as you vacillated from left to right and tried to figure out what you're going to do with your vote in november. if the debate didn't help you, any of the latest big headlines, and there have been several, moved anything for you or given you food for thought? >> i think the trump taxes that there's definitely an issue there. i think that needs to be explained more by mr. trump. i look at it, i work for a construction company, and i paid

more in the last year than he's paid in the last four years. so i have some questions about that, you know? i really do. >> jerry, we're going to be following you very closely as you try and make up your mind here and, chuck, there you have it. not really helping anyone come up with any answers here after last night. chuck? >> honestly, though, i'm pa the -- i empathize with jerry. if you were trying to find a message from either campaign, you didn't get it. dasha burns, excellent stuff. from michigan to ohio, that's where we find chris jansing. so chris, last night i checked in with you before the debate. seemed like you had a great spot to watch the debate. i'm sorry you had to watch the debate, because that looked like a great spot. >> reporter: thanks. it was gorgeous. we were all in a very positive mood in this lovely cleveland neighborhood. then when it was all over, the

folks i was watching the debate with used words like painful, unpresidential, disrespectful. chuck, here in ohio, the folks i was with last night, and i've been traveling through battleground states since last month, it almost seems like trump supporters who have not jumped ship, but are concerned about the way he comports himself, were just looking for a reason to stick with him, because they're concerned about what they see as potentially liberal policies oh of a biden/harris administration. he just didn't give them that last night. they talked about a '70s era sound proof booth that he would have to go in if he just couldn't stop talking over joe biden. i mean, seriously, they were so frustrated, chuck. here's a little more of what they told me. >> it's frustration. it's disappointing that those

are the two choice. >> if you were to ask me who won the debate, i don't think either one won. they danced around, called each other names, were disrespectful. >> i don't know if anybody really won, but i came away with a little more respect for joe biden. >> i think i'm still pretty undecided. >> it would maybe edge me a little more towards biden, but not much. >> did you learn anything? >> anything new? no. >> you condition figure out how they get from a to z when they're just yelling at each other. >> be civil and don't go off on a tan gent. >> would you watch another debate? >> i don't know. that was tough. >> what would you like to see in the next presidential debate? >> a mute button on the microphones. >> reporter: yeah, a mute button. one of the concerns they had going in with joe biden was his

age, mental acuity. they felt he did pretty well on that, but not on the issues. they just didn't feel, as you said, chuck, like they learned anything, that they got anywhere, and they are questioning whether or not there should be another debate. but they really think if there is, the rules have got to change. chuck? >> chris jansing in ohio. that was some fascinating responses there, as well. i'm starting to see a consensus formed. it's all anecdotal, but something you're seeing there that's matching a lot of what we're seeing some numbers. chris, thank you very much. let's bring in robert costa. you know, bob, it is -- it feels like we're in a different point in this campaign where

people that lean right, toward an outsider nationalist appeal. he appeals to white grievance. and there are those, chuck, the private alarm about whether this will cost the party the senate, could cost the party gaining any house seats. but it's really the former camp

that dominates the republican party right now, the camp that's bought in on president trump and his conduct. >> it's interesting to hear -- you heard rick santorum say it, if he were on the ballot, he wouldn't be how the president ran last night. it is interesting how muted the down ballot republicans are, particularly this morning. you're not seeing even lindsey graham gung ho about the president's performance. i think he even called it a bit too hot. >> a bit too hot. but where are the disavows? you are s you have a president who is saying stand back and stand by. the republican response is to say the least muted to not -- to basically silence. that tells you everything where this party is politically and how it calculates its own survival. >> the idea of more debates or no more debates. neither campaign is ever going to say no more debates, because nobody wants to look weaker.

but there seems to be some evidence that debates -- you know, it looks like early ratings aren't great, number one. and a lot of people are turned off. >> the challenge for democrats who think this entire process is flawed and that vice president biden should walk away is that many of them want to see president trump confronted by voters in the next town hall, which will be moderated by steve sculley of c-span. because of that voter element, that's led many of my democratic sources today to say vp biden should stick around. look for these negotiations to continue with the commission on presidential debates as that third and final debate approaches, especially about fact checking and interruptions, to make sure it's not another cacophony in cleveland. >> robert costa, with "the washington post," thank you. that you can to all of our great msnbc correspondents, getting on the trail there. up ahead, more reaction from the biden and trump campaigns.

plus, stand back and stand by. the far right extremist group is very happy with president trump's comments about them and to them during the debate.

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on america for good. i'm not going to answer the question -- >> why won't you answer the question? the radical left -- >> would you shut up, man. >> who is on your list, joe? >> gentlemen, i think we've ended this segment. >> he's not going to give a list. >> we're going to move on to the second segment. >> that was a really a productive segment, wasn't it? >> welcome back. so where does this election and the country go from here? i'm joined by mitt romney's former campaign manager, and donna edwards, an msnbc contributor. donna, let me start with the debate conversation here a minute about whether there

should be more, the bulwark, no more debates, slate, cancel the rest of the debates. dan ball questioning whether it would be good for the country if we have two more debates, if that's what they look like. frankly, i understand the sentiment. if this is what they're going to be, this isn't good for the country. what is your advice to the biden campaign on debates? >> well, i just don't think that last night was very productive for the american people. i think that joe biden did his best to speak directly to the american people, but it was difficult in the face of interruptions and bullying, and i just don't know the purpose that it really serves. so i'm leaning towards cancel the debates. i think that joe biden, for example, could schedule a one on one interview with all of the major networks and get, you know, have a better way of communicating his message to the

american people. i just really found that it wasn't productive, and frankly, this business of putting a mute button or allowing the moderator to silence -- i just don't think that's going to work. president trump will just talk over it any way, because he's a bully. i don't think that's helpful for a democracy. >> you know, lonny chen, i hope you were watching at the beginning, we had some conversations with voters who watched the debate. i could tell what they wanted. they actually want a very sort of -- i want them both asked the same questions, you answer, pause, you answer. maybe they should be back-to-back interviews. maybe that would be better for the american people. >> yeah, well, i think the american people want to hear about the plans that these two gentlemen have going forward. i think they do want a substantive conversation. i will say this, i think the town hall format, which is coming up, will be probably a little bit better in the sense that it's hard to misbehave when

you're right in front of an audience. and i don't know what they're going to do for covid-19, if they're going to shrink the size of the audience, presumably there will be people there watching. i think the format has a lot to do with this. if you just get them standing up at a distance, it's very easy to engage in the mind of dialogue we saw last night. format matters, but the substance of what they say going forward matters a lot, too. >> well, i've got a little breaking news as you guys were speaking. we got a statement from the commission on presidential debates. i'm going to read it in full. they acknowledge the obvious. the commission on presidential debates sponsors televised debates for the benefit of the american electorate. last night's debate made clear that additional structure should be added to the format of the remaining debates to ensure a more orderly discussion of the issues. the cbd will be considering the changes that it will adopt and will announce those measures shortly. the statement goes on to praise chris wallace for his

professionalism and skill that he attempted to bring to last night's debate. so donna edwards, here's what i would say to the commission. good luck getting the president's team to agree to any changes on that front, since it seemed to be their plan was to destroy the format. >> well, the president and his team agreed to the format last night, and violated the rules. and so i just don't believe that the president either has the capacity or the desire to follow a structure that he agrees with. and i don't trust it. and so, you know, i praise the commission for trying to figure out a way to structure this, but that requires cooperation of both campaigns. joe biden cooperated last night, president trump did not. and let me just say about chris wallace. i don't know that anyone in his position would have been able to constrain president trump interrupting and talking over joe biden. and so i don't place it on him. this is all in the lap of the

president of the united states who didn't behave presidentially and will not in the future. >> you bring up a good point, lonny, on format. the ceded debates are always the less confrontational. when they're seated at a table, ryan and biden did a seated debate. i know cheney loved the seated debate. the president hates being seated. that we know. so you think cutting off mics then is a measure that's worthwhile? >> i think they should consider giving the moderator a little more power to step in, including a mute button, if necessary. i do think that's something that could work. but really, the only way you're going to change behavior is fundamentally if the incentives get align sod that behavior will change, right this so if the feedback is, look, you know, president trump, you're too hot

last night, we have something to show you that says these are the voters you need and you're not able to convince them by doing what you're doing, i think you've got to change the incentives. that's the only way you're going to change behavior in this situation. the format does matter. the seated format is good. i'm eager to see what steve sculley does with this town hall debate in a couple of weeks. and you have the vp debate, that has been seated in the past. so we'll see how that goes next week. >> very quickly, there was the one piece of substance that broke through, the president's refusal to condemn the proud boys. this made a lot of republican senators a little uncomfortable. i'm going to play a handful of clips we heard. >> i think he misspoke in response to chris wallace's comment. i think he should correct it. if he doesn't correct it, i guess he didn't misspeak. >> he should have made it very clear that there's no reason for people on the far left or far

right when it comes to antifa or these white supremacist groups. should have been very clear. >> were you disturbed by that >> like i said, i saw it afterwards. i was hoping for more clarity. >> i condemn white supremacy, all extremist groups. i think that all of these groups are hateful and i condemn them in the strongest terms. we need to remain one nation under god. >> i thought tim scott left something hanging out there that the president ought to be paying attention to. if he doesn't correct it, i guess he didn't misspeak. >> well, you know, i mean, this is the presidetzel day for republicans. it's very difficult for them to stand by a president who will not simply condemn white supremacist groups and white supremacy, and, you know, tell

the proud boys to stand back and stand by. it's very threatening. i think that, you know, republicans who are worth their salt, have to really separate themselves from the president of the united states on this. this is very dangerous territory for the republican party. it's really dangerous for the american people. >> lonny, is there a single republican senate on the ballot helped by the debate? >> that's what they worry about, the down ballot. they have to be spending the day thinking about, you know, where are we going to invest dollars over the next week until the next debate? because i don't think it was helpful. i think a lot of republicans are going to have to figure out how do you draw separation without turning off the trump base, which you clearly need to win? particularly in some of these states. joni ernst in iowa, corey gardner, and they need an

energized republican base. it's hard to do that while criticizing the president. there is no getting around this situation. what the president did last night, you're going have to separate yourself from that if you want to have any hope of picking up that suburban moderate vote. >> lonny chen, donna edwards, thank you both for your perspectives this afternoon. up ahead, how dangerous were the president's comments on those white supremacists? the white house is saying he didn't say what we all heard him say. that does tell you certainly white house staffers are nervous about what he said. but extremists heard it loud and clear. that's next. - [narrator] the shark vacmop combines powerful suction

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welcome back. as we said, the proud boys celebrated last night after hearing president trump to sell them to stand back and stand by. instead of disavowing them during the debate. he maid it clear, there was no -- he made it clear after the "stand by" and added somebody has to do something about these people. it was clear this group could be called upon. that's what it sounded like to most people. on private social media platform groups, they wrote, president trump told the proud boys to stand by because someone needs to deal with antifa. well, sir, we're ready. joining me now is former fbi

special agent. clint, any time we have talked about these extremist groups getting the attention of somebody, it was a big deal to qanon. now the proud boys are getting this. how dangerous is this? >> chuck, it takes a group that was once obscure and makes them much more main stream. this is a consistent pattern that we've seen. it was qanon, i think fs on with you two weeks ago. it gives validation to qanon and to the proud boys. they just had a big rally in sunday in portland, 26 september. they bring themselves together. one of the things they talk about is we need to protect the vote, we need to show up at polling places and guard ballot boxes. this is part of a mobilization. so when the president says that, he literally is making both

intimidation become real, mobilization to become real. and at the same point, if something needs to be done about an extremist group, pitting another extremist group against them is not what the president should be doing. he's in charge of the fbi and the department of homeland security. why wouldn't we go through formal institutions rather than to a vigilante type group to undertake actions that are not authorized nor legal? >> i'm just trying to figure out, if you were back at the fbi right now doing this basically investigating of what's happening to these domestic extremist groups, and you realize the president of the united states is the security risk here, what do you do at the fbi? >> it has got to be absolutely painful for agents, folks at the department of homeland security that are trying to secure and make sure we have safe elections during a pandemic, they are essentially running two elections, a mail-in election

and in-person election. can you imagine what you would do, if you showed up let's say to investigate a leak based on a mobilization at a polling place, and they say, your boss, the president, told me that i need to protect the ballots, i need to protect the polling places. this would be almost impossible for them to pursue as a lead, because it is their superior, it is a level above them as an organization that's advocate thing. it gives the institutions almost no ground to stand on, and no pathway to achieve success for the american people and making sure that we have a safe, protected, and valid vote on november 3rd. >> what have you seen -- have you seen much this morning? we started the segment by telling you -- telling viewers about various ways some members of proud boys viewed what the president did. are you continuing to see today more of this action and do social media companies need to

step in on this one? >> yeah. it's across social signal to move forward. this is a signal none of these groups have ever had before. to do it using force if need be. this really seems like hey, he's saying you need to stick up for me, and to do that, you need to do it for election day.

>> we are exactly 15 hours removed from the debate, from the debate ending, and we are still not heard from the president himself condemn thing group. clint watts, appreciate you coming on and sharing your expertise on this stuff. thank you. up ahead, even one of president trump's debate advisers is publicly criticizing his debate performance. jason miller joins me next. to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three p's. what are the three p's? the three p's of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i just turned 80. what's my price? $9.95 a month for you, too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the number one most popular whole life insurance plan

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you come in and decide you want to be aggressive. i think that was the right thing to be aggressive, but that was too hot. so i think what happens is, with all that heat, as you said before, you lose the light. >> welcome back. that was former nu eer new jers governor chris christie last night, criticizing the president's debate performance. joining me now is jason miller, senior adviser for the trump campaign. so jason, i know you put out a statement in the campaign. other than the campaign -- other than the people the campaign

pays, it's hard to find anybody who thinks the president did a good job. and i want to have you respond to michael goodwin. he's a big fan of the president, somebody you count on a lot in "the new york post" to move your message. i want you to respond to him. here's what he wrote. the bulk of the blame falls on trump who came with a clear plan and executed it flawlessly. unfortunately, it was a very bad plan, the president was determined to rattle biden by interrupting him. >> we both know, this is your best ally in new york city. >> well, chuck, i couldn't disagree more. if anything, i would point you to telemundo who ran a poll of their viewers and folks watching who said by 2-1 clip president trump was victorious last night. but there's something really important i want to point out. typically with the first debates in these re-elections, usually

presidents lose a first debate. last night, president trump was the dominant force, and i think he handily won this debate. not only did he lay out a clear vision of what he wanted to do in a second term, he continually called out joe biden for his weakness to stand up to the radical left, his weakness to even put out basic things like what law enforcement groups were backing him. and here's the critical point, chuck. biden didn't make any progress on the two big issues that americans are most concerned about right now. covid recovery, and economic recovery. biden looked like he was struggling, he was grasping for the facts. he looked weak on that stage. >> jason miller, i think you were citing a fan poll. all of the method logical polls say the exact opposite. we had a -- >> but chuck, this would be -- >> so, look, i understand -- >> chuck, you know i won that

one four years ago. chuck, i clearly won. it was because president trump not only did he win -- >> what are you talking about? >> he won. and he won the election four years ago, and with the latino community that was watching the debate last night, they liked how president trump stood up on law and order, and the fact that biden couldn't condemn antifa, he had such weak words for the radical left, that resonated with a lot of americans. what is's resonated with most americans is the president's failure to condemn white supremacists and the proud boys. in fact, encouraging them to stand by and attack antifa. i know your campaign is trying to come around and say he misspoke. it's been 15 hours. the president has a lot of ways to speak. he always knows when he has something to say, he says it. he's refusing to say anything, and it sounds like the public should take that for what it's worth. >> no. chuck, and please don't come

rushing to the rescue of someone who spoke at the funeral of an exalted cyclops for the kkk, someone who said they didn't want their kids going to school in a racial jungle. >> are you really going down this road? >> 100%. 150%, chuck. he can -- >> the president of the united states refuses to condemn david duke, refuses -- >> he condemned it last night. chris wallace asked if he condemned it and he said sure. he said sure three times, not one time, but three times. chuck, don't throw joe biden a life vest here. >> stop this. you know you're making stuff up. >> chuck, i'm not making -- >> jason miller -- >> that's not -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> i'm pointing out that --

chuck, listen to me. >> jason miller, i want to understand why the president of the united states four years ago couldn't condemn david duke. three years ago, said there were fine people on both sides. couldn't condemn the proud boys. this is not an accident any more, this is called a pattern. >> chuck, chuck, don't gaslight the viewers here, clearly last night president trump said that he condemned those when chris wallace said do you condemn them, he -- >> what does stand by mean? why does he want the proud boys to stand by for sh >> stand byhe and let law enforcement do their job. he's condemned the left, the right. he wanted them to get out of the way. he wants law enforcement to do their job. last friday, chuck, let's have a real talk for a moment. let friday, president trump was

in atlanta rolling out his platinum plan, his contract with black america, where he's talked about infusing $500 billion into the black community to close the wealth gap, something that's very critical, he condemned the kkk and antifa and said he would label both groups as a troierrot group. he was doing that last friday because that's what he believes. what was joe biden doing? look at his half century of palling around with segregationists. and the fact that he said if you can't decide for me or not, then you ain't black. that is shameful and i think joe biden has supported racist policies for half a century. >> can you make this claim, when your campaign four years ago, that you also worked on, treated black voters and said they were to be deterred from voting. you had a campaign strategy that deterred black people from voting. explain to me how this is

somebody who is somehow wanting to have black voters vote for them. >> not at all. never even heard of that until this fake report from a couple discussed on the campaign, never heard of it. here's the reality, check, four years ago, president trump did two points better with african-americans than mitt romney had done four years previo previously. we've seen president trump getting north of 20% with african-american voters. right now, we're in mid to high teens with voters. it's because of the hope, the optimism and the financial possibility that president trump is bringing to the community. in fact, right after we get done with this interview, we're going to release an interview with jack brewer, a former nfl player e who is now on board with president trump, because he believes in what president trump has done, not just with the first step act, but this contract with black america, the second step act. as we start going through this,

get thing capital back into the black community. this is the key, because for too long, politicians like joe biden have turned a blind eye to the black community. donald trump is helping them. >> what i'm curious about is, why president trump had no interest in wanting a debate. it seems to me he went into this intentionally wanting to destroy the format, because it sounds like he was afraid to let joe biden talk. >> i would disagree with you on that. i think president trump called on joe biden on law and order, the green new deal, some of the radical leftist things. and this was -- >> he didn't have much of his facts correct. >> hold on. i mean, in fairness, president trump clearly won the debate. i would say chris wallace, i know some folks have been attacking him. i'm going to defend him here and say chris finished second in the dsh. i think joe biden was a distant third if you're rating the

candidates here. president trump is a dominant force and he took it to joe biden who, on the big stage, joe crumbled. he melted into a puddle and he couldn't even defend himself. and here's the one other thing, president trump did last night, he turned joe biden into a swamp creature, a grifter. >> jason miller, i think the amount of projection, the idea that president trump accuses anybody else of being a grifter is somebody else with those tax returns. but jason miller, your satellite window is closing. we have to go. >> where is hunter? thanks. >> joining me is one of the leaders of the democratic side of the aisle, also a biden surrogate. congressman jim clyburn. congressman clyburn. >> yes, sir. >> how are you? i apologize for being a few minutes late. that was not the most enlightening back and forth just there, but let me ask you this. why should joe biden participate in debates going forward? >> well, unless -- thank you so

much for having me, chuck. unless they're going to to something to restructure this format, he shouldn't. i do believe that the commission ought to be about elevating the presidency of this country and forming the electorate about the future of the country, and to allow it to divolve into what it became last night is a disservice. so the commission needs to step up and do what is necessary to make it what it ought to be. i have seen a lot of debates. i have been to a lot of them. and i used to be very, very proud just to be in the audience, even when my candidate wasn't winning. and that's what the commission ought to do, restore dignity to this process. because last night was a disaster. >> do you think joe biden should have punched him harder?

>> well, i think joe biden tried to be as restrained as a good man would be. you know, and i think that even with that restraint, i still hear people today, not all of them republicans, saying, he was informed but he was weak. i don't know why people always equate goodness with weakness. i don't think you're weak because you're a good guy. he was trying to be a good guy. and that's one of his faults sometimes. >> if a message broke through last night that helps joe biden, what do you think it was? >> well, what joe said, you know, it is what it is. because you have who you are. and i think that is the message. the american people must understand that we are in the predicament we're in today because this president is who

and what he is. he's an incompetent who has masqueraded as someone who knows what he's doing. he as absolutely no idea how the government should be operated and i think that is what came through last night more than anything else. you know, i have been an administrator since i was 25 years old. i started running stuff. one of the things i found out early as an administrator, if you find a real incompetent that's always stirring up chaos, that is establishing shiny objects for people to keep their eyes on something else outside of what they're really doing, that's what this president is doing. he's ruining this country, and he's doing things to create chaos, and here's joe biden trying to build community. i wish that trump would read martin luther king's last book, where we go from here, chaos to community.

that's what we saw last night, cayuhaos with trump. community with biden. >> do you think what the trump campaign is really trying to do is demoralize turnout. you heard from jason miller there, and the president, they're traying to create a mythical divide between the progressives and the center left dems a little bit. are they succeeding in that, and do you see the strategy as essentially a suppression strategy, demoralize people from not even wanting to participate in this mess? >> yes, i do see it as being the intent, but i can tell you from what i have heard and what i see when i go home on weekends, they're doing anything but that. i have never seen the electorate as motivated as it is today. and i think that's why you have seen those interesting numbers coming up down there in south carolina for jimmy harrison and lindsey graham because people are motivated.

i saw a new number in north carolina yesterday, for cunningham leading the incumbent republican by ten points. that's because people are motivated. so i can tell mr. trump and all of his followers, if that is what you're trying to do, find another horse to ride. >> very quickly, coronavirus relief. it's our understanding speaker pelosi and treasury secretary mnuchin are meeting. frankly, it's nice to see there's some face to face talks with some member of the administration and congressional leadership. should we assume this is actually going somewhere this time? >> well, if they can't come to some kind of a deal, and i really wish they would, pelosi has put more stuff on the table. they just seem to either reject it for us to ask them to meet us halfway and they cut in half what they had been offering, that's not being honest or honorable. so i hope they would come to

some kind of agreement. if they don't, i hope that the speaker and the leader will come to the floor in the next 24 to 48 hours with something that we will present to the american people so that the american people know that we mean business and we're here to protect them and the republicans and their recalcitrance will not be suffered by the house of representatives. >> help me read some tea leaves here. the sooner you vote, the less likely there's a deal, the later you vote, the more likely there's a vote? >> no, we can do both. key can vote on something today and still do a deal. so the deal may come -- >> okay. >> even if we were to vote. remember, if we vote and the house is doing the law, we have to get the senate to go along. we can do it in the house and still get a deal. >> all right. congressman jim clyburn,

democrat from south carolina, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective, sir. thank you. >> thank you very much for having me. >> thank you all for being with us this hour. we'll be back tomorrow with more "meet the press daily." msnbc's coverage continues with katy tur right after this break. on a fixed budget, remember the three p's. what are the three p's? the three p's of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i just turned 80. what's my price? $9.95 a month for you, too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the number one most popular whole life insurance plan available through the colonial penn program. it has an affordable rate starting at $9.95 a month. no medical exam, no health questions.

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good afternoon. i'm katy tur. it is 11:00 a.m. out west and 2:00 p.m. in the east where a day after the debate, the agreement was that it was a disaster. the new york post called it a brutal slugfest and a hot mess. reuters said chaos reigned. and the judge report called the event a circus that exposes a nation in decline. a cbs news snap poll found that by far the most common response to the debate was annoyance. and a number of voters who spoke to nbc news didn't disagree. >> you are a mom of two boys, and you told me you felt a little bit of kinship with chris wallace last night. >>