getting rid of roe as maybe some of the conservative christian base would like to see. >> to me, him saying, there's nothing to see here, or something to that effect in the first debate, and jody ernst saying i don't know if they'll overturn roe. they're looking at the same polling we are. thank you both. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. that is "all in" ons tuesday night. "the rachel ma doe show" starts right now. good evening rachel. >> thanks for joining me. congresswoman ocasio-cortez will be joining me tonight. she lives rent-free full-time inside the mind of the conservative media and the trump white house, both of which are obsessed with her. but the district that she represents in congress has been one of the hardest-hit congressional districts in the entire country when it comes to covid-19. so, congresswoman ocasio-cortez, better known by her initials aoc, she will be joining us live

tonight, specifically to respond to the news that the president has told his administration and republicans in congress that they must stop all work on any kind of coronavirus relief bill. no bill, no covid relief at all, no economic help for industry or individuals, nothing, until after the election, according to the president. he said today that he wants the congress to work only on confirming ac confirming amy coney barrett, his nominee to the supreme court. he wants them to ignore anything else and specifically ignore any kind of covid relief efforts no matter how far talks have come to get us reportedly close to an apparent deal. the stock market tonight fell off a cliff when the president made his statement precluding any possible covid help. even some republicans in congress are expressing shock and disagreement with the preside president's statement. there's polling just out as of last night which shows that the american people by almost a 3 to

1 margin prefer for congress to work on a new covid relief measure before the election rather than trying to install the new judge on the supreme court almost 3 to 1. look at that. nevertheless, that's the opposite of what they're going to do. so, representative alexandria ocasio-cortez will be live here to talk about that in a moment. i'll tell you honestly though we're sort of on the lookout for maybe a potential reversal from the white house on this tonight. and maybe the laws of political logic don't apply here. but if they do, this is something that should probably be reversed. i mean, even if you ignore the stark and terrible impact of a policy decision like this, the fed chair jerome powell today warned in a speech just today that things are going to get very bad economically in this country for no good reason unless a new covid relief bill gets passed and soon. the policy implications here are stark and very bad. and very easy to see coming.

but even if you ignore how much damage this is going to do to the country, it's also just terrible, terrible politics right now one month before an election to tell people you're getting no help. the government could help but we choose not to. all right. so, it's -- i mean i suppose it is possible that this was some sort of presidential blurt, and he will try to take it back. we're at least on the lookout for signs of that. this announcement by the president was out of the blue enough that house speaker nancy pelosi literally speculated on a conference call with her democratic colleagues tonight that perhaps there's something about the president's covid medications, specifically the steroid that he's been taking that might have affected his ability to clearly think this through. but that's that story tonight about the president precluding any help, any covid relief efforts before the election. that story tonight broke as sort of a shock a few hours ago. we are keeping an eye out for

the prospect it will develop as a story further over the course of the night. meanwhile with the latest news that yet another white house senior official, this time stephen miller has tested positive for covid-19. the cluster of infections around the president and the people close to him is becoming almost hard to keep up with. it's becoming hard to track minute by minute. there are literally more and more people in the white house testing positive every day. it is hard to keep track of, but here's what we've got as of right now. the president has covid-19, as does the first lady, melania trump, presidential adviser hope hicks has covid, also white house official, kayleigh mcenany, a bunch of people in her office, chad gillmartin has covid and three other assistants, another person in

the office they're not yet naming. that makes five people with covid in the white house press shop alone. i'm not sure how many more people there are in the white house press shop. that might be it. the rnc chair ronna mcdaniel also has covid. former white house adviser kellyanne conway is positive. her teenage daughter claudia is now positive as well. another trump campaign manager, the 2020 campaign manager, bill stepien has covid now as well. you might remember before joining the white house what bill stepien was famous for was his role in the bridgegate scandal under chris christie. chris christie is positive as well. he was involved in the president's debate prep sessions last week. three republican senators have covid now. senator mike lee of utah, thom tillis of north carolina who's up for re-election in a race that is going to be no cake walk, covid or not. he's running against democratic contender cal cunningham in fix

income. another white house staffer who worked as the president's body man, a man named nick luna has tested positive for covid as has a military valet who is not being named but who reportedly was in direct contact with the president. bloomberg news has named another specific military valet who that news organization says is also positive. but nbc news has not confirmed that reporting from bloomberg news. other people who have attended white house events in recent days or participated in travel with the president in recent days have tested positive, including the president of the university of notre dame john jenkins and the pastor of the harvest church in southern california who attended a white house event this past week but also attended a big mostly mask free, no social distancing prayer march with vice president pence on saturday. also "new york times" white house reporter michael sheer has tested positive. he has told axios today his wife

has now tested positive as well. the white house correspondent's association says there are two other white house journalist who is have tested positive besides mike sheer from "the times." washington, d.c. has just recorded the largest spike in new cases that the district has seen since early june. and it's not known exactly if the infections at the white house and the president's immediate circle are responsible for the overall spike in d.c., but the sheer numbers indicate that's a real possibility. and you know, i don't know exactly what consequences or subsequent behaviors we would expect to derive from a circumstance in the white house that is this nutty and this bad. i don't know what would be the right or expected or normal response to something this insane. but i didn't expect the response would be this. the vice president now tonight mocking democratic vice presidential kamala harris and the commission on presidential debates for wanting to institute

some additional covid protection protocols for tomorrow night's vice presidential debate. i mean, for reference, here's how the cdc defines a close contact of someone with covid, a close contact who should quarantine because of their close contact with someone with covid. cdc defines a close contact as any individual who was within six feet of an infected person for at least 15 minutes starting from two days before the i don't know on set of illness in the known infected person. so, is vice president mike pence a close contact of a known infected person? the president's doctor says president trump's symptoms started on thursday. two days before that on tuesday, vice president pence bragged to a campaign audience he had just come from spending time in the oval office one on one with president trump. if he wasn't lying, that would mean that the vice president was in close contact indoors in a sustained way with the president

two days before the president started showing symptoms. that would make the vice president a close contact of an infectious covid patient. and he should, therefore, be in quarantine for 14 days. and i don't know if maybe the trump white house just doesn't believe in that for some reason, but could he at least not spend tomorrow night breathing all over kamala harris? and the debate moderator, susan page from "usa today"? no, apparently this is remarkable. last night the commission on presidential debates announced that they would put clear dividers between kamala harris and mike pence as an extra precaution for their debate. given that the president is positive and the white house is a covid cluster and the candidates aren't going to wear masks while they debate. it wasn't a proposal that they were discussing from one side or the other, this was something that was agreed to and announced by the debate commission last night. but now today is vice president's staff is mocking the

need and saying they won't agree to it. they say it's not necessary. sure, forget the scientific advice. who would you trust more on the key issue of keeping vip's virus free? who would you trust more on that than the trump-pence white house, which has done such a great job of keeping everybody in the white house all safe right up to the top. tonight joe biden told reporters that he does not expect that he will debate the president if the president still has covid and is infectious next week, the night of their next debate, next thursday night. and you know, on the one hand, duh, of course, if the president is still infectious, he should be quarantining and nobody should be around him, let alone somebody on a debate stage with him. on the other hand, with this white house, who knows. even with him infectious, even symptomatic, they would be happy with him breathing all over joe biden and holding a maskless rally and having him purposely

cough and sneeze on the doorknobs of the u.s. capitol just to see what happens. of course there won't be a presidential debate if the president still has covid and sill is infectious, right? right? the number two official in the coast guard has now tested positive as well. his name is admiral charles w. ray and number two official in the u.s. coast guard. you will remember this past weekend, the white house held that rose garden event at which amy coney barrett was announced as a supreme court nominee. the day after that event -- that's the event where you can use a seating chart from the amy coney barrett announcement in the rose garden last weekend to create an advent calendar predicting the people in republican politics who have tested positive. we don't know if that amy coney barrett announcement in the rose garden last weekend was an occasion of mass infection, but again the numbers of people who are infected, including mike

lee, senator mike lee here, seen ugh haddi hugging people and holding his mask in his hand, the number of people at that event and have since tested positive make it possible. that was last saturday at the white house. last sunday at the white house, the day after that outdoor event at the white house, which may have been a super spreader occasion, the day after that, the white house hosted another event. this one indoors with zero social distancing and no masks in evidence. and admiral ray, the number two in the coast guard attended that event in the white house. so, now the day after that event with no protections in place at all, no social distancing, no masks, between that event and another pentagon

meeting which happened a couple days earlier at which admiral ray met with other senior brass from the military, between those different occasions in washington which he was around other senior officers from the military, the list of senior u.s. military officers who are now under quarantine is mind blowing, under quarantine as of right now. chairman of joint chiefs of staff, mark milley. general john hyten. chaef of naval operations, army chief of staff, space force chief of staff, number two official, deputy come don't of the u.s. marine corp., national guard, they're all quarantining now. they've all been exposed. now, speaking of the nsa, the national security agency, i've actually got news for you on that front. and this is exclusive to us. i am just breaking this news now. you have not heard this anywhere else. i mentioned that general paul knack sony who heads the nsa and

cyber command, he is now one of our nation's top military leaders, who are all under quarantine after being exposed to covid-19. his predecessor as head of the nsa, his predecessor who ran the nsa under george w. bush forced michael hayden, ran the cia under george w. bush as well. general michael hayden is now retired from the military, retired from his long and often controversial career as a very high level military and national security official. michael hayden is not someone i would have expected this from, but i am going to show you now here exclusively something that michael hayden has just done for republican voters against trump. this has not aired anywhere else before. i am going to show it to you right. watch this.

>> i'm mike hayden. i was the former director of the cia and the nsa. if there's another term for president trump, i don't know what happens to america. truth is really important, but especially in intelligence. president trump doesn't care about facts. president trump doesn't care about the truth. he doesn't listen to his experts. the fbi says white nationalism is a real problem. and the fbi wants to do something about it. but the president doesn't want to talk about that. he doesn't keep the country safe. it's unbelievable. i was 40 years in the military, okay? alliances are wonderful. alliances are win/win. and now i don't know what's happening to our alliances.

i mean it. if trump gives another term, i think many alliances will be gone, and america will be alone. and that's a real, real problem. i absolutely disagree with some of biden's policies. but that's not important. what's important is the united states. and i'm supporting joe biden. biden is a good man. donald trump is not. >> michael hayden. his speech inflected there by aphasia, by affects of a stroke, recording that remarkable ad for republican voters against trump. what he says at the end there is -- i absolutely disagree with some of the biden's policies, but that's not important.

what's important is the united states. and i'm supporting joe biden. biden is a good man. donald trump is not. michael hayden, again, george w. bush era director of the national security administration and director of the cia. even though michael hayden's successor of nha is quarantining tonight because of covid exposure, paul participated in a remarkable joint address to the country today, i guess is the way you would consider it. it was a video that was addressed to the public from the heads of four intelligence and law enforcement agencies that are responsible for protecting the presidential election. chris wray, head of the fbi, and others, director of the cyber security and infrastructure security agency, better known as

cisa, something i didn't know existed before they and the fbi started putting out joint announcements about adversaries messing with the election again this year. but this is an odd duck. i'm not sure i've seen anything like it before. it is targeted to us, the pub le lick. and it is a warning that our 2020 elections are being targeted by bad actors. it's a threat from the ed hhead the fbi will be caught and punished for messing with our elections. but it's also a pep talk to us, the public, that we can do it. that despite these threats to our election and the serious y nature of them, we as americans will choose our own leaders. we can do this. we need to vote. we even ought to be volunteers to work as election workers ourselves. this is remarkable. watch this. >> we're not going to tolerate

foreign interference in our elections or criminal activity that threatens the sanctity of your vote or undermines public confidence in the outcome of the election. >> foreign actors are spreading disinformation and attempting to sway voters by executing influence operations. they are using an array of cyber activities with the intent to gain access to our election infrastructure. they're also attempting to collect derogatory personal information from candidates, campaigns and prominent americans. despite these nefarious efforts, our election system remains resilient. to be clear, it would be very difficult for adversaries to interfere with or manipulate voting results at scale. securing our election requires a whole of society approach. every american has a role to play, especially since the american voter is the primary

target of these foreign influence and disinformation efforts. as americans, we are all in this together. i encourage you to stay informed and vote. by doing so, you'll not only help protect our elections but also send a clear message to our adversaries. we decide who elected officials are. >> the american voters will decide american elections. and you, as the american voter, are the last line of defense. by being a prepared, participating and patient voter. prepared by having a voting plan, no matter how you're voting. participate by volunteering to be an election worker if you can. and be patient. because of the changes due to covid, on november 3rd, we might not know the outcome of our election. and that's okay. but we're going to need your patience until official results are announced. so, get out there and vote with confidence and be a part of protecting 2020.

>> chris krebs speaking alongside bill, christopher wray, all the heads of law enforcement intelligence agencies tasked with protecting the election from crime and interference this year. i don't know if the trump white house knows that this is what their intelligence and law enforcement agencies are doing in this messaging to the public ahead of election day. but boy does that kind of stuff from those officials contradict everything we are hearing from the president? especially the vote, vote, vote part. as of today, we are exactly four weeks from election day, which seems impossible to believe, but it's true. facebook today just announced a sweeping ban of accounts and postings linked to qanon, the trump-supporting, ever-growing conspiracy cult that says, among other things, that democrats eat babies and all democrats and

lots of hollywood celebrities are all about to be rounded up by the secret other people who are wanliging war on them. recently qanon folks said that trump doesn't really have covid. the whole reason he went to walter reed was just to cover up for the fact that he was really leading a secret covert op against the satanic baby eaters. qanon thrives on facebook in particular like mold on a hot bag of wet bread. facebook is announcing tonight that it will take down all qanon pages and groups and profiles. this is going much further, and it's a much larger action than any previous effort they've taken to try to take action against what they consider to be a violent conspiracy cult. "the new york times" tonight just in the past hour endorsed vice president biden with this

long new editorial, "elect joe biden, america." the former vice president is the leader our nation needs now. with exactly four weeks to go until election day, here's basically where joe biden's chances stand today in terms of the election. a new cnn national poll released today shows joe biden with his national lead in the race so far. biden leads the president in this poll by 16 points, 57% to 41 kt approximate. prognosticators watch for one candidate to hit the 50% threshold as key indicators of electability. here biden is at 57% in this national poll. the cnn poll was conducted after the first presidential debate and mostly after president trump's coronavirus diagnosis was made public. and while that 16-point biden advantage may seem unlikely, it may seem like a bit of an outlier given just the size of that lead, it's worth noting

that an nbc "wall street journal" poll released just sunday showed biden with a 14-point lead among registered voters. that's in keeping with the margin. that was conducted after the debate but before news emerged that the president tested positive for covid. as bad as the national polling is for the president, it's the state match-ups that of course count since that's how we pick the winner. in pennsylvania, a new monmouth university polls biden up 12 points. last month that showed him with a 4-point edge. in michigan, vice president biden is up 9 points according to a brand-new wdiv detroit news poll. that same michigan poll showed biden beating the president last month, but gaining ground on him last month compared to this month. in arizona, another key swing

state, a new "new york times" sienna poll shows biden leading trump by 8 points 49% to 41% in arizona. the one bit of polling news seems to be in florida, a new suffolk university poll in florida that shows trump and biden tied in florida. most polls have showed biden with a narrow lead in florida. but the suffolk university today polls shows them both at 45%. again, that's florida. so, there's four weeks to go. this election like no other. more than 4.7 million americans have already cast their ballots in the presidential race with four weeks still to go before election day. that number of voters, 4.7 million people having already voted. that's more than 50 times the number of people who had cast their ballots by this time in the race in 2016. more than 50 times as many people have already voted compared to this time four years ago. and the polling right now when

millions of people are voting is not good for the president's re-election effort right now. that said, him proclaiming today four weeks out that republicans insist on no covid relief for the american people at all before the election, that's not going to help him much either. more than that though, more than the politics of that, no covid relief in the election is going to be a body blow to the economy, to whole categories of struggling businesses, and to lots and lots and lots of americans, particularly unemployed americans who have been stranded by this pandemic, who now know the president and his party insist on them getting no help at all. why are they doing this? what a time? what a thing. representative alexandria ocasio-cortez joins us live next. plus we'll hear from the chairman of the medical division at ucsf. e medical division at ucsf.

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the fallout from president trump taking a sledge hammer to any hope of some sort of covid relief bill today, the fallout from that was not what you would call subtle. within minutes of the president such shuting down negotiations on any covid bill until after the election, the dow dropped suddenly and sharply. here's how that looked like. the president made the scorched earth move on covid relief and boom off a cliff. former vice president joe biden didn't mince words in response either. he said, quote, make no mistake, if you're out of work, if your business is closed, if your child's school is shut down, if you're seeing lay offs in your community, donald trump decided today none of that the maars to him. this baffling announcement by the president today will be felt by every american as our country continues to struggle against this epidemic. but it won't be felt by every

american equally. new york state's 14th congressional district includes parts of the bronx and queens. it's one of the hardest hit districts in the country in terms of coronavirus detects and cases but also in terms of poverty and income inequality that have been made worse by the terribly botched federal response to this ongoing pandemic. the good people of new york's 14th district are represented by congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez who today herself did not shy away from calling this an anti-everybody agenda, saying the president and the republican party are walking away from getting any covid stimulus relief done, endangering millions of they themselves got covid and enjoyed free socialized health care. also they can push through an anti-aca, supreme court pick. joining us live is alexandria ocasio-cortez of the great state of new york. her district has been called the epicenter of the epicenter.

it's nice to see you. thanks for making time tonight. >> of course. thank you for having me. >> i've seen some of your initial reaction online to this decision by the president that there will be no covid-related help to the american people at all before the election. but i wanted to ask you specifically in the context of your district because your district has been so hard-hit, what do you think the impact of this decision will be? >> well, you know, i think new york's 14th congressional district is really a microcosm for the entire country. and we're also a bellwether. whenever the country is about to go through something incredibly draw matic and severe, it often hits my district first. we saw this covid and the pandemic. our district was hit heaviest and hardest first before the waves started echoing across the nation in terms of covid cases spiking. and we're already starting to see warning signs of the severe economic and health fallout that

is to come. we are on the brink of an eviction crisis, a mass eviction crisis here in our district but also across the country. 30 million to 40 million people are at risk of being evicted because the president has decided to walk away from every working person in this country. now, that's before we even get to mortgages. it's before we get to unemployment extension. it's before we get to an another second stimulus check. in addition, just as we're entering the fall, we are at risk of a second spike. and what we are seeing here in new york city, which is a city that has some of the strictest covid guidelines and some of the highest rates of mask-wearing adherence in the country, we are still starting to experience areas where there's a second -- where there's kind of a second spike. nine zip codes in new york city are at risk of being shut down totally or partially due to a

secondary fall wave. now, if we decide and if the president and the gop follow through with walking away from covid relief, we are looking at one of -- we are staring down the barrel at one of the largest mass eviction crises in the history of this country since the great depression. that's what we're looking at. we're looking at a potential second wave that could be catastrophic. we are looking at the potential of hunger in the united states exploding on a level that we have never seen since the great depression. and all of it is preventable. all of it. all we need to do is authorize a second stimulus check. we need to make sure that we get state and local funding so that municipal governments can stay above water at least through the end of the year. we need to make sure that we are funding large-scale testing and tracing programs. and we need to make sure that we're really developing a

vaccine responsibly and not pushing one out for the sake of an election. >> one of the things that i think is so baffling about this decision. i mean, even if you ignore the real world impact that you were just talking about there at length and in detail and with eloquence, even if you ignore the real world impact, politically this is something that is inexplicable. we are four weeks from the election. the american people are in a tough situation coast to coast. some of the states that are having the biggest spikes right now are deep red states that are very supportive of the president and they are radio-in pain right now both in terms of covid and tech nomic impact of it. it's strange to me. and i don't understand it. it makes me watch for a potential reversal here or some sort of move behind the curtain that we're not expecting. i wanted to ask you though how you think this interacts with the president being diagnosed and what appears to be a large white house cluster and all of these people in republican politics and the upper echelons

of the white house testing positive? that just seems like one other element of this that makes this decision almost unbelievable, let alone a surprise. >> you know, it is unbelievable. and on one hand, you know, i think that they're just kind of drinking their own kool-aid. they really started to believe that masks didn't matter, that rapid tests, which we had known were less effective, were acceptable before a mass superspreading event. they didn't even seat those -- they didn't even put those seats six feet apart outside. so, there's a certain just basic denial of science and lack of acceptance of science that we're looking at. but, you know, additionally, the president is not in a good condition. we just was diagnosed with covid. his oxygen levels were in perilously low areas over the weekend that were extremely

concerning and then we're supposed to believe that everything is absolutely fine right now when we were receiving conflicting medical reports from both the white house chief of staff mark meadows and some of the physicians that we're hearing at walter reed. now, i don't think that we should be making any large political decisions when the president is in such a perilous -- in such a perilous medical state. he is still receiving interventions in treatments and we're in the middle of talking about and making dramatic decisions about what is happening with the covid stimulus. not only that, but he's also directly conflicting himself today. he retweeted the federal chairman jerome powell, which is saying that congress cannot do enough when it comes to critical economic indicators like inflation, when it looks at -- when we're looking at joblessness. there is -- the fed is basically telling us that there is no

program too big that we could authorize. we cannot effectively spend enough right now. and the president retweeted that while also saying that he's going to walk away from relief. he is absolutely and the entire white house staff. and by the way, every single ub a republican senator that is enabling him -- this is also about lindsey graham. this is about mitch mcconnell. this is about susan collins. and yes, this is about making sure that we elect -- rather that our republican senators who are enabling this are allowing our economy to risk free fall because if we had a veto-proof majority in the senate, we could get this done without him. but the senate republicans don't want to pass a covid stimulus bill either. and that's why we are in the position that we are in today.

>> congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez of new york. it's a pleasure to have you with us tonight. thank you. stay safe. much more news ahead here tonight. stay with us. e news ahead here tonight. stay with us of the dryer wrinkl? next time try bounce wrinkle guard dryer sheets. the world's first mega sheet with 3x more wrinkle relaxers. look at the difference of these two shirts... the wrinkle guard shirt has less wrinkles and static, and more softness and freshness. to tame wrinkles on the go use bounce 3in1 rapid touch up spray. bounce out wrinkles with bounce wrinkle guard dryer sheets and touch up spray! both, with a money back guarantee.

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traffic and air pollution will be even worse after the pandemic. that's why we support measure rr to keep caltrain running. which is at risk of shutdown because of the crisis. to keep millions of cars off our roads, to reduce air pollution and fight climate change. and measure rr helps essential workers like me get to work and keep our communities healthy. relieve traffic. reduce pollution. rescue caltrain. [all] yes on measure rr. taking california for a ride. companies like uber, lyft, doordash. breaking state employment laws for years. now these multi-billion-dollar companies wrote deceptive prop 22 to buy themselves a new law. to deny drivers the rights they deserve. no sick leave.

no workers' comp. no unemployment benefits. vote no on the deceptive uber, lyft, doordash prop 22. one ride california doesn't want to take. this is a fast-moving news environment right now, and i imagine that it will be over these next four weeks. we've got an update on a couple of stories we've been covering tonight just since on the air. first of all, nbc news is reporting in the past couple of minutes that vice president pence will not object to there being a plexiglass barrier between him and senator kamala harris at tomorrow night's vice presidential debate, despite the fact that he and his team have been mocking the vice presidential nominee of the democratic party for going along with that after the commission on presidential debates announced it last night. he will not object so they will have those plexiglass dividers between the candidates.

also "the new york times" reporting two interesting developments out of the white house under headline trump's return leaves white house in disarray as infections jolt west wing. the "times" describes some white house staff members as worrying about president trump's behavior, including today, calling off the congressional coronavirus relief bill talks suddenly, might have been spurred by the cocktail of drugs he has been taking to treat the coronavirus, including dexamethasone, a steroid that can cause mood swings, can give a false level of energy and a sense of euphoria. white house staff members wondering whether the president's behavior is affected by those potentially mood-altering drugs. the white house also conceding tonight to "the new york times," white house officials conceding tonight to "the new york times," that although there has been an impression created that president trump was getting tested every day, the president

has not been getting tested every day, according to two people familiar with the practices. this, of course, puts a new cast on the refusal of the president's doctors to say when he last tested negative for the virus, which of course is important in terms of figuring out who else he might have exposed and what else he might have done while knowing that he was at least potentially infected with coronavirus, if not exposed -- if not just exposed to other people around him who were known positive cases. joining us now is chairman of the department of medicine at the university of california at san francisco. it's an honor to have you with us tonight. thank you for making the time. >> thank you rachel. pleasure to be here. >> i've been thinking all day about talking to you and i've gone through about 30 different things to ask you news has overtaken a lot of that planning. i have to ask your reaction first of all to the news that apparently there will be plexiglass dividers between the

candidates on stage tomorrow night. do you think that is sound science? do you think that's wise? >> it's wiser than not. i think it would be even safer if the candidates were in different physical spaces. but if they're going to be in physical spaces and share physical space, being 12 feet away, plexiglass, having people tested, that feels reasonably safe. >> terms of the vice president's potential exposure, we are told by the president's physicians that the president himself was showing symptoms on thursday. vice president pence says that he was with the president inside the oval office two days before that on tuesday. if that timeline is right -- and again that's the white house's own time line -- should vice president pence be quarantining away from all other people, even if he continues to test negative over these next few days? >> well, we know that the average person's infectious a day or two before they have symptoms. so, that timeline would make you

worry that vice president pence was exposed, and therefore he should be staying away from other people until he has a number of negative tests to be 100% on the safe side. >> there's been what i sort of previously consider to be some loose talk about whether we should worry about the president's ability to carry out the duties of the presidency given the covid treatments he's taking, whether or not specifically the steroid that he's taking is something that might have cognitive or mood-altering effects on the president that should worry us in terms of the kinds of decisions he's making. i've considered that to be, sort of, people overworrying. but now we've got news from the "new york times" that there are white house officials who are worried about that, the speaker of the house gave voice to that worry tonight. are we overthinking this, or is that something that is

potentially a real concern? >> i don't think we're overthinking it. it's hard to say for sure without him being examined by physicians, and i would love it to be independent physicians. what we do know is that not only does that medicine, dexamethasone, frequently cause mood swings, even manicness, euphoria, but covid can also alter your thinking. and particularly in elderly people. when an older person comes into the hospital, they're not thinking clearly and confused, the first thing we think about is infection. for a 74-year-old man to have symptomatic covid, low blood oxygen which can alter your thinking and be on dexamethasone raises the possibility that his thinking is altered, his judgment is altered from the medications, and part of the problem is if he is is one responsible for figuring out whether he's thinking clearly, that not a good plan. i would say of the hundreds and hundreds of patients iv've take care of, it's not at all

infrequent that they have no idea. it's one of these things that happens. they lose insight. they are unable to tell they have a problem. it's the folks around them that can tell that. i can't say for sure that there's a problem here, but it certainly is possible given the medications, the low blood oxygen and the infections itself. >> dr. wakter, you're saying some stuff that is rattling me a little bit. i'm going to break the rules a little bit and ask you if you wouldn't mind sticking with us to the other side of this commercial break and coming back so i can ask you a few clarifying questions because you've unnerved me a little. would you mind staying with u