good day, i'm andrea mitchell in washington where president trump, who was diagnosed with covid less than a week ago, says today he will not participate in the next debate next week, now that the debate commission today decided it must be virtual, not in person, because the president could still be infectious. >> no, i'm not going to waste my time on a virtual debate. that's not what debate's all about, you sit behind a computer and do a debate, it's ridiculous, then they cut you off whenever they want. >> the biden campaign is responding, saying the former vice president will now take questions directly from voters on october 15, instead of participating in the debate that the president won't attend, but he's also asking the debate commission to move the town hall that was scheduled for the 15th to october 22, after these comments from the candidate this

morning. >> we don't know what the president's going to do. he changes his mind every second. >> the other debate making headlines was the vice presidential face-off where senator kamala harris pressed vice president mike pence, the leader of the coronavirus task force, on the white house response to the pandemic. >> the american people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country. >> the reality is when you look at the biden plan, it reads an awful lot like what president trump and i and our task force have been doing every step of the way. we're about freedom and respecting the freedom of the american people. >> let's talk about respecting the american people. you respect the american people when you tell them the truth. >> i will be speaking with dr. anthony fauci in just a few moments about the recent headlines involving the president's coronavirus diagnosis. we begin with nbc white house correspondent and "weekend

today" co-host peter alexander, nbc's mike memoli, and pbs news hour's yamiche alcindor. let's sort through what the biden campaign is now saying, they want to change the format of the october 22 debate. >> yeah, andrea, i think what we've had happen in the last few minutes here is a debate on debates has broken out with all of the participants here. let's rewind and start with this morning. that was the debate commission announcing to the surprise, frankly, of both campaigns, that they were going to move forward with a virtual debate in the town hall format for next week. this was done without consultation of either of the campaigns. the biden campaign said they were just getting ready to begin their conversations about how this debate were to move forward, if it moved forward at all, given the president's diagnosis. very quickly the biden campaign

said they would gladly participate in such a debate but the president ruled it out. kate benefiting field, the deputy campaign manager of the biden campaign, says given the president's unwillingness to participate in a virtual debate, joe biden will find an appropriate place to take questions from voters on october 15, that's when we were scheduled to have that debate. then they said, given the president's refusal to participate, we hope the debate commission will move the biden/trump town hall to october 22 so the president is not able to evade accountability. the voters should have a chance to ask questions of both candidates directly. every presidential candidate since 1992 has participated in such a debate. andrea, we're not sure what that means, if the biden campaign is asking for a town hall style debate in lieu of the final debate or if they want to move back both debates. i'll be in touch with the biden

campaign to try to get some clarity with that. obviously, rather than talking about last night's debate, we've quickly moved to a debate about debates, andrea. >> and in fact, peter, let's also talk about what the president has been saying, because the president this morning has been speaking again about the debate, making a lot of accusations, also saying he's cured, that he never even had to go to the hospital. bring us up to date. >> let's start on the debate over the debates, as mike so eloquently put it right there. that debate continues at the white house behind closed doors, aides telling me that they are trying to convince him, urging him to participate in at least one of the upcoming debates, if not the second one scheduled for next week, the third one scheduled for the 22nd. they're concerned that the president is ceding ground to

joe biden, recognizing that the president is trailing in polls. they say, if you let biden speak more, it will reveal to the public his shortcomings. the president said he wants to host a rally. they said, if you host a rally, you get maybe 3 million viewers on fox news, if you go to a debate you get more than 60 million. that's one of the conversations taking place here. the president's comment morning was sort of a circuitous argument he was making on a lot of different topics, among them saying that he doesn't think he's contagious right now, not that he could know the answer to that question at this point. given the fact that he was tested or revealed that he was positive just last friday, within seven days, normally, it's typically that you would still be contagious. the president on that point also saying jokingly that he views himself as a perfect physical specimen. but it's clear that he is in a foul mood right now. he was attacking christopher wray, his own fbi director, as disappointing, saying that he

believes that cheating on ballots is a bigger issue for americans than china and russia among other topics, andrea. he went teeing off on a series of topics. one frankly that struck me was him saying that joe biden and barack obama, among others, should be indicted for their involvement, he says, in the biggest political crime in history. so consider that for a moment. you have now the united states president, the president of the united states, saying of his political opponent that he should be locked up. i know that sounds like familiar language given what he said about hillary clinton. but four years ago he was a candidate. now he's the president using those words. >> and saying that he's been pressing bill barr to actually carry that out. let me just also point out and ask you your take on this. the president was talking about having antibodies, possibly being immune. you've looked into this. these could be the antibodies that he's getting from regeneron. he has no way of knowing what antibodies he has. >> no, andrea, you're exactly right, that came out of his

physician, dr. sean conley's note we received yesterday saying, as an indication of good news, that they found antibodies in the president's system. what's not clear is whether those were the antibodies they put into his system, the experimental antibody cocktail he received from regeneron, or antibodies that his own body, his own system produced. i pressed one of the administration officials when they came out to speak yesterday, i said, how do you know which one it is, and they said, "good question." >> and yamiche, stunning remarks from the president yesterday in a video he taped in the rose garden. >> i view these, they call them therapeutic, but to me it wasn't therapeutic, it just made me better, okay? i call that a cure. i feel great. i feel like perfect. so i think this was a blessing from god that i caught it. this was a blessing in disguise. >> yamiche, he says he's cured, that it was a blessing that he

got covid. can you comment on all of that? >> andrea, these are really remarkable statements from president trump, given the fact that there are more than 7 million americans who have been infected, more than 210,000 americans dead, and he's saying there's some sort of cure out there when we know it's simply not true. the president is misleading the american public on this issue and it shows that the president in some ways is possibly not in tune with what so many americans are doing right now which is grieving for family members and loved ones who have passed away. the president had access to all sorts of experimental drugs, all sorts of high-end medicines that were used of course for the president, given that he is the president of the united states, but there are so many other americans who are waiting for the federal government to give them relief. also to come up with therapeutics to help them. and the president is not helping the situation in this regard, by putting out there that people should not be afraid of the virus. health officials are saying this, this is not just an

opinion. health officials are saying, as americans, we need to stay vigilant. the president is essentially trying to use this virus and his diagnosis in a political way to say, i'm feeling better, i'm doing great, i can go forward. what isn't clear, as we sit right now, is whether or not the president is actually even over the coronavirus. has he tested negative? we don't know. when was the last time he tested negative before he tested positive? we don't know. this is a president at this point that knows he's facing a really, really hard reelection campaign and he is trying his best to grab at straws and grabbing at straws means trying to project confidence and trying to turn some of these videos that we're seeing look about me campaign ad style tv moments. but what we're seeing from the biden campaign is essentially them saying the president is off the rails, he's not really being focused on what the american people need right now. that's the stance of the biden campaign. one other thing that i think, as i was listening to peter talk

about what was going on, he was also talking about hillary clinton's emails, which was remarkable to hear on this day when there are so many other things going on. >> and mike memoli, let's take a look at how covid did dominate the beginning of the debate last night. >> if you have a preexisting condition, heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, they're coming for you. if you love someone who has a preexisting condition, they're coming for you. if you are under the age of 26 on your parents' coverage, they're coming for you. >> i hope we have a chance to talk about health care because obamacare was a disaster. >> and so, mike memoli, there's that. that's also the fact, the nbc exclusive reporting that the president asked his doctors at walter reed last november to sign a nondisclosure agreement. >> yeah, absolutely right, courtney kube and carol lee with that great reporting.

a part of a walter reed visit last year that still remains shrouded in a certain degree of mystery, we still have a lot of questions about what the purpose that have visit was. what's interesting is part of that reporting, as carol and courtney indicate, there is doctor/patient confidentiality already, it's unclear why you would have needed that additional layer of none disclosure agreement, but it's certainly one the president felt he needed. as it relates to the coronavirus, this is one of the reasons why people supporting kamala harris and pushing the biden campaign to consider her for vice president was to prosecute the case against the administration's handling of the pandemic, and mike pence as the head of the white house coronavirus task force. >> thanks so very much to mike memoli, peter alexander, and of course yamiche alcindor. dr. anthony fauci is of course the director of the

national institute of allergy and infectious diseases and joins me now. dr. fauci, thank you, welcome back to the program. i have to ask you about a lot of the comments that the president has been making about his own health. he has said that he is cured, that the disease just went away, that he now has antibodies, that he could be immune. and that regeneron is a cure, not a therapeutic. can you help us sort through this? i know you haven't examined the president, so you're not involved in this case, but in terms of the public health messaging that is coming right now from the administration. >> i think, andrea, if we take one by one the statements you made, obviously i could only give, you know, surmising about that, since i have not directly been involved in the president's care. but first of all, saying that he's cured now. he certainly looks good and apparently feels good. one of the issues that we all

have to be aware, and his physicians are aware of this, that the history of covid-19 is that you could look and feel like you're doing reasonably well and after a couple of days you could have a downturn, namely have a reversal. that's possible. the chances of that happening, i don't know. as good as he looks, i don't think that's going to happen, but i don't know. but you have to be heads up that it might happen. regarding the antibody that he received, it's a monoclonal antibody. the data, the preliminary data from those antibodies are favorable. i think it's a reasonably good chance that the antibody that he received, the regeneron antibody, made a significant difference in a positive way in his course. but when you have only one, we refer to it in medicine as n equals 1, when you have only one, you can't make the determination that that's a cure. you have to do a clinical trial involving a large number of individuals, compared either to

a placebo or another intervention. having said that, there is a reasonably good chance that that in fact made him much better. >> what concerns would you have about him still being infectious? >> well, you know the general guideline from the cdc says that ten days from the onset of symptoms, that you can essentially consider someone noninfectious. you can definitively show that by another one of the recommendations that had been made about two negative pcr tests, 24 hours apart. so if the president goes ten days without symptoms and they do the tests that we were talking about, then you could make the assumption, based on good science, that he is not infected. but you have to wait and make sure you go through those particular benchmarks that are delineated in the cdc guidelines.

>> are outcomes now improved for people overall, for people who have been infected with covid? >> yes, andrea, and that's particularly true for people with advanced disease, because there are two interventions now that have been shown in good randomized placebo-controlled trials to make a difference in a positive way. for example, remdesivir in hospitalized patients who have lung disease significantly diminished the time to recovery, namely when you leave the hospital. dexamethasone, a commonly used corticosteroid or steroid, as we call it, in hospitalized patients who are either on a ventilator or who required oxygen, has been shown in a really good randomized placebo-controlled trial to significantly improve and in fact decrease the 28-day mortality. now, there are a number of other drugs that are being used early

in the treatment of covid-19. the ones that i mentioned, the two i just mentioned for more advanced disease. but things like monoclonal antibodies, one of which the president did receive, are now in clinical trials. and the data are being accumulated, and they look quite favorable. whether or not they're going to get an emergency use authorization will depend on an analysis of the data by the fda scientists. >> can regeneron, that antibody drug, be mass-produced as quickly as the president is saying and administered for free to the entire nation, to all covid patients? >> well, andrea, i don't have any determination whether it can be free, that depends on the company itself, what they're going to do. >> that's a budget issue. >> convey, that's a budget issue, that's not it. but i'm hearing you can make a

substantial number of doses from several hundred thousand to a million doses, but that's something i hear secondhand, i wouldn't want anybody to take that to the bank. >> we know you're not treating the president, but can you give us a sense of how someone on doses of dexamethasone, the steroid, which is a powerful steroid, can impact a patient dealing with the virus? >> well, i mean, it has a positive effect. if you have advanced disease, particularly that requires oxygen, and you are in the hospital, the studies show that dexamethasone has a really significant positive impact on diminishing the 28-day mortality. so the fact that he received the drug and that it has been shown to be effective in that regard is probably -- not probably, is one of the reasons why the combination -- remember, he's received dexamethasone, he's received remdesivir, and he's received the regeneron

monoclonal antibodies, two of which have been proven to be effective, and one of which is showing in clinical trials a strong indication that it's effective. i think all those things put together certainly have contributed to the fact that the president has done well. but again, you can only show it in the big picture, when you do a large study and prove it in a large number of individuals. but my feeling is, looking at him and how good he looks and the fact that he's received these therapies, it's likely that they played a major role in making him get on the road to recovery. >> is there any risk to a patient to be making major decisions when they're on these powerful steroids? in terms of judgment. >> you know, that's an idea that gets kicked around, andrea. the only trouble with that is, that probably got taken out of context. one of the things, when you're on steroids, there are a number

of side effects. it makes you hyper energetic, it sometimes interferes with your ability to sleep. if you're on it on a very long time, and which he's not, they don't plan on having him on it for a long period of time, there are long range side effects. but the side effects when a person is on a higher dose for a short time, it's more that you're very energetic. that's one of the things that happens. i've treated literally hundreds and hundreds of patients with corticosteroids. and that's one of the things you look at. it certainly interferes with your sleep because it makes you hyperenerg hyperenergetic. >> how do you know when you're not contagious? >> well, you don't know. the laboratory tells you whether or not you are or not. it's a scientific thing. if you look at a large number of people and you try to get a feel

for the brackets, it's almost certainly, and there are vaeshlts variabilities on this, but ait's almost a certainly, the other things that had been in the cdc guidelines is that if you have two pcr tests 24 hours apart, that are negative, now, again, someone is going to say, yes, but what about the reports that even many, many, many days out, if you do it, you still see a positive. well, a pcr test can pick up essentially irrelevant dead fragments of the virus. but depending upon how many cycles gets you to that positivity, even what looks like a positive pcr may not be at all indicative of infectivity.

>> the new fda rules that make it more difficult for them to speed up vaccines for approval before election day, the president says this is just another political hit job. do you think the career fda officials were involved in a political hit job? >> no. no, andrea. that i can say with a good degree of certainty. i mean, i know these individuals, these career scientists, they're devoted to science and the public health. and the decisions they make about the conditions of an eua, i have confidence in them, because they've been doing this for years and years. they know what they're doing. they're very good people. >> on tuesday, twitter flagged a tweet from the president, and facebook took down information saying he was spreading misleading and potentially harmful information when he wrote that many people in a year, sometimes over 100,000, die from the flu. are we going to close down the country, no, we learn to live

with it just like we're learning to live with covid. can you communicate to our viewers what dangers you see in comparing covid to the flu? >> i think the thing that has been said is that when you look at young people, particularly children, the flu, when you deal with morbidity and mortality for children, compared to covid for children and young adults, it's as bad as or worse, we'll say. so that's where you get the comparison between flu and covid-19. but the comparison really ends there, because when you look at the impact of covid-19 on the general population at all ages for morbidity and mortality compared to a seasonal flu, there's absolutely no doubt, no doubt at all, that this covid-19, with its 210,000 deaths in the united states, 1

million deaths globally, 7 plus million infections in the united states, is far more serious than a seasonal flu. no doubt about that. >> the white house has refused assistance from the cdc for contact tracing of the road garden event. there have been other events at the white house. the white house is now a hotspot. shouldn't the white house cooperate with cdc and d.c. officials, indeed, on contact tracing? >> you know, andrea, i don't know if i can really comment meaningfully on that. i do know there is a cdc person assigned to the white house. and i had not been involved in the discussions about how they were going to go about doing contact tracing. so i'm a little bit concerned about making any comment about that, because i'm not there firsthand in those discussions. >> we have reporting today on nbc that -- exclusive reporting by our colleagues, that the

white house, the president, demanded a nondisclosure agreement from walter reed doctors, military doctors, last november when he visited. wouldn't the hipaa regulations obviate the need for that? why would doctors at walter reed have to sign nondisclosure agreements for treating the president? >> andrea, i don't have an answer for that. the hipaa agreements that we and myself as a physician are bound by, when i see patients across the street from where i'm sitting right now at the nih clinical center, i'm bound by the hipaa agreements not to make any information known to the public unless i get permission from the patients themselves. so i'm just not sure why that added level was put in. i can't comment on that. >> how concerned should we be about the increase in a number of areas, we're talking about north dakota, we're talking about wisconsin, the increase in country cases?

>> andrea, i've told you this, and i've told others, i am concerned about that. we are entering into the cooler and colder months of fall and winter, when a lot of things that you would have normally done outside now out of necessity have to be done indoors. when you have what we have, which is a baseline of 40,000 infections per day, that's at a level that i'm not comfortable with. i would like to see that level way, way down, well below 10,000. when you have a baseline like that, and you look at what we call the upticks in test positivity, in certain regions of the country, some regions of the country are doing quite well, but in certain regions of the country like the midwest, the northwest, and even now we're starting to see a little difficulty in the northeast, in new york, then you get

concerned, because it is more difficult to deal with respiratory borne virus as people begin to go indoors more. and if you start seeing upticks the way we're seeing it and you have a baseline that's 40,000 and stuck at 40,000, that's not the optimal position to be in, as you enter into the fall and winter. >> finally, the modeling of behavior, the rose garden imagery with people not wearing masks, i know it was outdoors. the president coming back from walter reed, then taking off his mask very dramatically the minute he got inside, and going inside, where there were staff around him, without a mask. what can you say about this, this lack of showing an example? >> well, i'm not making judgments, andrea. the only thing i can do is repeat what i repeat maybe 20, 30 times a day, that in order to

avoid the acquisition and transmission of this virus, which is highly transmissible, you should have uniform wearing of masks. you should have physical distancing. you should avoid crowds. you should try and do things outdoors much more than indoors. and you should frequently wash your hands. and to me that goes for any situation, without exception. >> dr. fauci, thank you so much, thanks for being with us today. >> thank you, andrea, i appreciate your having me. and we're following a lot of breaking news today. now this out of michigan, where the fbi says they stopped a plot to kidnap michigan governor gretchen whitmer. six men have been arrested and charged. joining me now with more on all of this, nbc news investigations correspondent tom winter. tom? >> reporter: andrea, the plot and the arrest today being announced by federal authorities in a case that's being charged in the western district of

michigan. six men, identified as adam fox, barry croft, caleb francs, daniel harris, five of those men with the exception of barry croft, all from michigan, croft is from delaware, charged with a single count of conspiracy to commit kidnapping. this investigation, andrea, according to the charging documents, began in early 2020 when the fbi began monitoring social media, and monitoring discussions of people that talked about the quote violent overthrow of government in certain governmental leaders. this investigation progressed through several months. the fbi, according to the chargesi in charging documents today, was able to use undercover fbi agents as well as confidential human sources more commonly referred to as informants in this investigation. one of those informants came from a militia group in michigan and as a result that have they were able to speak with this person who came forward because they were concerned that the militia was seeking the addresses of police officers and wanted to kill police officers.

one of the militia groups that was kind of associated or tried to be brought in to be recruited by the people that were charged today in this plot to kidnap governor grip etchen whitmer wa allegedly involved in one of those second amendment rallies at the capital in michigan. an important note, based on the charging documents, there was no imminent threat to the governor, because they had undercover agents and it appears there was no imminent threat to her. but certainly lurid details, and according to the charging documents, reported conversations that tie all these men to this plot, and some very disturbing details inside that complaint. >> fascinating story, and i gather she's going to have a response later this afternoon. thanks, tom winter. we'll of course be following this nonstop all day on msnbc.

and the art of the dodge. both vice president pence and senator harris left several critical questions unanswered at last night's debate. more on what they did not say, next. it's about the humans, this human, that human or these humans. it's about getting more than health insurance and a partner who listens and acts. humana calls it human care. it's about offering a range of medicare advantage plans many that include prescription drug coverage. it's about talking to your doctor from your couch helping you find cheaper prescriptions before you even ask. and a plan as low as a zero dollar monthly plan premium in many areas. call or go online to speak with a licensed humana sales agent and get your free decision guide. it's about helping you find specialists and schedule appointments. and covering you in emergencies wherever you are. it's saving big on prescriptions like humana medicare advantage prescription drug plan members who saved an estimated 7,800 dollars on average on their prescription cost last year. it's about feeling your best with silver sneakers fitness programs and

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and joining me now with some more breaking news on the presidential debates and the debate over debates. nbc news white house correspondent peter alexander. bill kristol, founding director of depending democracy together, and "washington post" opinion writer jonathan capehart, a pulitzer prize-winning journalist. we have a new statement from the trump campaign appearing in two more debates. >> exactly right, the statement coming from the president's campaign manager bill stepien who himself tested positive for the coronavirus over the last several days, pushing back on the idea, like the president did, of having a virtual debate,

the town hall scheduled for next week, saying that's a nonstarter. instead the campaign is saying, americans deserve to hear directly from both candidates on two other dates, october 22nd, so they would move the first debate back a week, and then october 29th. that 29th debate, if that happened, would take place five days before the election. so the latest from the campaign is the president is open to two more debates but wants them to be delayed until presumably his infection has cleared, then he wouldn't be contagious and would be able to debate in person, andrea. >> that actually seems like a very reasonable compromise all around, given the covid infection. let's go on to bill kristol, let's talk about the debate that was last night, which is certainly much more substantive, but they did both of them avoid answering questions on whether climate change as an existential threat, overturning roe v. wade, and importantly, not answering

the question about a peaceful transfer of power which was raised so importantly by the president's repeated comments. let's take a look at this. >> if vice president biden is declared the winner and president trump refuses to accept a peaceful transfer of power, what would be your role and responsibility as vice president? what would you personally do? you have two minutes. >> susan, first and foremost i think we're going to win this election. >> bill, he never really answered that question. how would you react to the whole performance? >> you're right, andrea. >> in terms of the vice president not answering a very important question. >> i think that was the most important thing to come out of the debate last night, unfortunately. there was the normal ducking of questions that are awkward for you, put you in an unpopular position, or you have a position that you don't want to clarify something because parts of your coalition won't like it if you clarify it, that's politics as

usual. refusing to flat out say, not that he ever got to it, but to say at the beginning of your answer, yes, we will honor the results of the election, as vice president of the united states i have taken an oath to uphold the constitution and the laws of the united states and i will do so and i will do my best and work hard to make sure everyone else in the government does so, that i think, the failure to do that, was worrisome. it was just irresponsible as president trump has been. you put that together with his failure on the white supremacy question, to really come out and denounce those groups and denounce violence and say as many other people from both parties have said, hey, anyone who thinks they're supporting me, supporting us, by engaging in violence or threats or intimidation, especially in light of what we now learned today about the attempts apparently against governor whitmer, the refusal to say flat out that is wrong, that is unacceptable, that for me also

as a problem. it's those two failures of omission, the failure to commit to upholding the rule of law on the transfer of power, on recognizing the election results, and the failure to unequivocally denounce violence by any of one's misguided supporters, those were i think the most important, you know, omissions last night. and they were by vice president pence, unfortunately. >> and jonathan, harris, for her part, like joe biden last week, wouldn't answer whether or not, if they win the election, they would pack the court. take a look at this. >> susan, people are voting right now. they would like to know if you and joe biden are going to pack the supreme court if you don't get your way in this nomination. >> let's talk about packing. >> you gave a nonanswer. >> i'm trying to answer you now. >> the american people deserve a straight answer. if you haven't figured it out yet, the straight answer is they are going to pack the supreme

court if they somehow win this election. >> jonathan, of course that's because the democratic caucus in the senate is divided on this issue and it's a very tough issue for them to acknowledge right now. >> mm-hmm. you know, i just filed my column at "the washington post" on this very issue of dodging questions. bill kristol basically articulated what my column was all about, how all dodges are not created equal. vice president pence's dodge on the peaceful transfer of power is the most egregious because it's the one that could possibly happen. when it comes to so-called packing the court, so many things would have to fall into place in order for us to even have that conversation. it's almost -- it's almost impossible. not only would joe biden and kamala harris have to win the election, but then the democrats would have to re-take the senate. and then let's say those two

pieces fall in place. they would have to submit -- they would have to get legislation through the house and the senate in a congress that is going to be grappling with getting ahold of the pandemic, reviving the economy, and untold other things that would get in the way of something that , in terms of consequential, doesn't need to be at the top of the list. the fact that senator harris pivoted way from so-called packing the supreme court and focused on the very real issue of republicans and senate majority leader mitch mcconnell spending a lot of time packing the lower courts, from the courts of appeal on down with more than 200 federal appointments to the federal judiciary, it was a smart pivot on senator harris' part. >> and there were a lot of interruptions, twice as many coming from pence than from, of course, kamala harris.

a very interesting debate. just one caution, that a man i know said to me last night, that the debate was really over for a lot of women the first time she said "please, mr. vice president, don't interrupt me." thanks very much. peter alexander, bill kristol, jonathan capehart, thanks to all of you. joining me now is the director of national intelligence -- excuse me, the former director of the cia, john brennan. welcome, mr. brennan. the director of national intelligence, john ratcliffe, announced wednesday he's releasing a new batch of documents to the department of justice as a part of the fbi's investigation into russian interference in the election in 2016, after he declassified handwritten notes by you to bolster president trump's claims that you and other former obama administration officials had plotted to create connections

between trump and -- the trump campaign, rather, and russia. last night at the debate, vice president pence repeated the widely-discredited accusations. i want to play that for you now. >> when joe biden was vice president of the united states, the fbi actually spied on president trump and my campaign. i mean, there were documents released this week that the cia actually made a referral to the fbi documenting that those allegations were coming from the hillary clinton campaign. >> so, director john brennan, you've got a new book out, it's called "undaunted: my fight against america's enemies at home and abroad," which is actually the perfect title to ask you to please correct the record about your notes, about john ratcliffe, who is now the head of u.s. intelligence. were you briefing president obama about a hillary clinton plot against donald trump? >> first of all, i think it's appalling that the director of national intelligence, john

ratcliffe, has so recklessly and in such a politically craven manner declassified in a very selective way these documents. you can see from the heavy redactions on these documents that it is cherry picking. now, in the summer of 2016, i briefed president obama and a small group of national security council seniors on some very sensitive intelligence involving a russian allegation that hillary clinton was going to highlight the widely-reported ties between donald trump and vladimir putin as well as the widely-reported russian hacking of the democratic national committee server. the intelligence suggested or indicated that the russians claimed that this was an effort by hillary to divert from other issues that she was dealing with such as her email server. now, that was an allegation that the russians were making. and as john ratcliffe's memo

says, they don't know whether or not it was fabricated or if it was based on any type of truth. but even if it were, and that's a big "if," there's nothing inappropriate or illegal for hillary clinton to highlight what was widely known at the time, which was the russians were responsible for that hacking. now, i am concerned about this release of sensitive intelligence. and i'm sure some of your listeners are wondering whether or not that release compromises u.s. sensitive intelligence sources and methods. and also i believe that some of your listeners probably wonder that if, if that intelligence was obtained from one of cia's foreign liaison partners, i would imagine that those foreign liaison partners would be very, very reluctant to share such sensitive intelligence with the cia and with the u.s. intelligence community if in fact its intelligence is going to be released publicly for these political purposes. so i do think john ratcliffe has

a lot of explaining to do, exploiting and abusing the authorities that are inherent in the office of the director of national intelligence, but also what the implications are and what the negative consequences are of making this release at this time on the eve of a presidential election. >> that obviously would be compromising sources and methods, which is a cardinal rule that any intelligence officer should not be doing, to say nothing of the head of the 17 agencies. let me play you something that the president said this morning about pressuring the attorney general to indict joe biden and others from the administration. >> unless bill barr indicts these people for crimes, the greatest political crime in the history of our country, then we're going to get little satisfaction unless i win and we'll just have to go -- because i won't forget it. but these people should be

indicted. this was the greatest political crime in the history of our country and that includes obama and it includes biden. these are people that, uh, spied on my campaign. >> your response to that? >> it's clear that donald trump now is desperate. he's grasping at whatever straw he can in order to try to improve his prospects in next month's election. and unfortunately we have an attorney general who has bowed to donald trump's wishes. i am just hoping and counting on people like john durham, the special prosecutor looking into the origins of the fbi's investigation, to maintain his professionalism, his integrity. and donald trump, again, is just looking for a way to try to tarnish the biden candidacy as well as individuals who were involved in a very, very important and legitimate investigation into russian interference in the 2016 election. there is no doubt about it,

russia interfered in the election on behalf of donald trump. i believe they're doing it again. and donald trump knows that he is likely to go down into defeat. and so therefore he will resort to any tactic. and i do worry about give to the different institutions of our government to try to do whatever they can to undermine, again, joe biden's candidacy. >> what are your concerns about why the president seems to side with vladimir putin against the conclusions of his own intelligence agencies? >> i think there's still an awful lot that the american people do not know about donald trump's dealings with vladimir putin, with the russians during donald trump's business career, as well as during this administration. it's clear that donald trump is hiding things, because he won't release his tax returns, as well as other financial records. so i don't know what exactly donald trump fears most, whether

it's on the financial, business, tax, or personal front, or whether or not he is, in addition, trying to ensure that when he leaves the presidency, he's going to be able to reap the benefits of having a good relationship with vladimir putin and his oligarch supporters. i don't know. but it's clear that this obsequiousness that donald trump has shown to vladimir putin, it is revealing of something that i think donald trump is hiding. and unfortunately, despite the efforts of the mueller team and the impeachment and trial of donald trump, there's still i think a lot that we don't know about donald trump, his past, and his present. >> to be continued. john brennan, the book is "undaunted." it's a fascinating account of what it was like to serve for all of those decades in the cia and also to be in the middle of this firestorm. thank you so much, i hope you'll come back and talk more about the book and about your experiences.

and the former health and human services secretary is out with a new report telling us what went wrong in the nation's coronavirus response and how not to keep making the same mistakes. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports." that's next on msnbc. g trip... ...when their windshield got a chip. they drove to safelite for a same-day repair. and with their insurance, it was no cost to them. >> woman: really? >> tech: that's service you can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ ♪water? why?! ahhhh! incoming! ahhhahh! i'm saved! water tastes like, water. so we fixed it. mio i wouldn't be here if i thought reverse mortgages, took advantage of any american senior, or worse, that it was some way to take your home. learn how homeowners are strategically using a reverse mortgage loan to cover expenses,

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trump administration and current leadership for its pandemic response calling it dangerously incompetent and saying they should be voted out or thousands more could die in this country. this is the council on foreign relations and nonpartisan group releasing a new report today calling the administration's pandemic response deeply flawed. joining me now is sylvia mathews burwell, american university president and former health and human service secretary to president obama. she is co-chair of the council on foreign relations independent task force report just out today. very good to see you. thank you for being with us. first of all, your reaction to the new england journal of medicine which never gets political. >> thank you for having me -- >> are you as surprised by it. >> my reaction to the report is, first, i would say there's one difference which is our report is not about the election but there are a number of similarities. and first, our conclusions are similar. in terms of the flawed response that our nation has seen. second, i would say that it is also similar, the breadth and

depth of the group of people that have come together both in terms of the piece by the new england journal of medicine and the bipartisan group that came together on the council on foreign relations report. and finally, i would say there's a similarity in intent. and i think the intention is to make sure that we have a pathway to better health and economic outcome for american citizens in our nation. >> when you talk about what went wrong, you talk about that the response was deeply flawed, that the u.s. failed to mobilize a nationwide response. that the present u.s. officials failed to provide clear science-based information, that china information sharing was flawed, at best. do you want to explain, in particular the response in the mobilization -- >> so the main conclusions of the report, one is that pandemics are inevitable and we need to treat them like we treat other major national security

and economic security issues both in terms of preparing for them and then when we have to execute a response. in terms of the response, we know we need a national strategy. and a national strategy that includes a national approach to testing, contact tracing and ensuring that whether it's citizens or governments at the state and local level that they have the tools and the information to make the decisions and take the steps they need to take to help fight a pandemic. >> what about rejoining the w.h.o., a mistake to have gotten out of the w.h.o.? >> yes. and that's one of the conclusions of the report is that we should not pull out of the w.h.o. while there are elements of the w.h.o.'s response that could and should be improved, there were a number of places where the w.h.o. played a very important role and whether that is in bringing together the national -- the international response and the different responses of nations, making sure we have the appropriate tracking mechanism so that

information is moving as quickly as possible so that nations can take the steps they need to, to prepare for the pandemic moving to their own country. >> it's a very important document. people should really read it. i'm sure it's posted on the website as well. thank you very much, silvia burwell matthews. of course, for all of the work you're doing on this. and that does it for today. a very busy breaking news day on "andrea mitchell reports." chuck todd is up next with "mtp daily." throughout the wash process. protect your clothes, with downy defy damage

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♪ welcome to thursday. it's "meet the press daily." i'm chuck todd. a very busy day of headlines involving the president, the virus, his refusal to participate in next week's debate and last night's vp debate which may be the last debate of the cycle. we begin with disturbing breaking news. you are looking live at the state of michigan where state and federal law enforcement officials are about to announce they've charged six men who were conspiring to kidnap michigan's democratic governor gretchen whitmer while seeking assistance from local militia members. we're expecting to hear from the state's attorney general along with officials from the fbi and the michigan state police. here's what we do know so far. according to an affidavit that'