shock the country on the night of november 3rd. >> you know, it's funny. i never trust polls, but i do trust the way politicians act. and john cornyn is acting like a guy who is really in a race right now. his comments, his ads. he knows he's got a fight ahead of him. beto o'rourke, thank you so much for coming on the show. >> thanks, chris. >> all right. that is "all in" on this thursday night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thank you, my friend. much appreciated. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. happy to have you here. i would not have guessed this going into it, but last night's debate between vice president mike pence and senator kamala harris was the second most watched vice presidential debate in history. i would not have expected that. i clearly am a dummy. look, you'll see the pattern immediately. you'll see why i should have seen this coming. these are the top five most watched vice presidential debates in history. number five was 1992. that was al gore versus dan

quayle versus ross perot's running mate, admiral james stockdale. fourth place was 2012. that was paul ryan versus joe biden. but look at the top three. turns out america likes women. who would have thunk? we at least like women on tv competing against men to be vice president of the united states. the top three most watched vice presidential debates of all time are the three with women in them. 1984, geraldine ferraro versus george bush. 2008, joe biden versus sarah palin. and last night turns out to have been the second most watched vice presidential debate in history after biden/palin in '08. the top three most watched vice presidential debates were the ones with women in them. i would not have expected that, but it's fascinating to see. this was the end of the debate last night, which might end up being the definitive sort of visual of the night. i know the fly is in competition, but this moment,

right? senator harris and her husband onstage. vice president pence and his wife on the stage. vice president pence's wife breaking the debate rules by not wearing a mask when she joined her husband onstage at the end of the debate. the only people in that room who were cleared by the debate commission to not be wearing masks were the moderator and the two candidates. but once again we get the family of the candidate from the trump/pence ticket defying those rules and taking off a mask, and you deal with it. i mentioned in our coverage of the debate last night the bizarre-seeming prospect that the vice presidential debate this year might actually be the last debate before the election. i'll tell you to be honest, i raised that last night during our coverage sort of to get it on the record. i was a little conflicted about raising it because i felt like it was such a distant prospect that there might not be other debates. but sure enough, we all wake up tos in this morning that last night's debate might have been

in for this lngs. the commission on presidential debates announcing of their own accord that they feel the only way they could hold the next debate safely would be to hold it virtual with each candidate at a remote location, incidentally the way nixon and kennedy did it back in 1960. president trump immediately said he wouldn't do that. he wouldn't participate in such a debate. his campaign manager, who has also recently been diagnosed with covid-19, the president's campaign manager then releasing a statement saying that the president wouldn't have time for a remotely held debate like that, so maybe the president would do a rally instead, which is a weird argument. but, you know, i mean what does the president want to do right now to demonstrate, you know, his -- his approach to covid, right? he's going to go back to maskless rallies now, right? right after he's just out of the hospital with his own covid diagnosis? maybe he'll just do big make-out sessions with as many of his voters as he can cram into a tiny unventilated room.

or they could have like trump/pence campaign sneeze in my face competitions, a contest to see who can cough droplets into the most strangers mouths in one go. what else are they going to do? he says he won't debate if they have to debate safely and remotely. instead he's going to do a rally, and he doesn't wear a mask. as it stands now, the president has pulled out of the next debate, which is scheduled for a week from tonight. the commission on presidential debates tells nbc news tonight that the commission is sending staff to miami anyway just in case that debate ends up being back on at the last moment. but they are assuming that it's not happening. the debate commission also says they are making tentative plans to go ahead with the third and final presidential debate, which is scheduled for two weeks from tonight in nashville. but, again, who knows?

if they're not going to do the next one, are they going to do the one after that? last night really might have been it. this year might be the year that we get one totally cacophonous, impenetrable presidential debate and whatever that was last night, and that might be it. we will let you know more over the course of the night as we learn more. this appears to be still a developing story. speaking of developing news, you should also know there appears to be something hinky going on vice president pence's schedule. he was due to fly to his home state of indiana tomorrow to vote, to cast an in-person early ballot for the election. the white house abruptly canceled that plan without saying why. vice president pence will not be flying to indiana tomorrow, and he instead is flying back to d.c., and we don't know why, and they won't say why. and that of course led to a lot of skipped heartbeats and worries that it might mean that both the president and vice president were both now infected with covid, but the vice president's press secretary released a statement amid all that concern saying, quote,

nobody's sick. there's no positive tests. that's good to know, also still unsettling to see that kind of a statement. but it's just been that kind of a day. it's just another day when the news has been nuts. i keep assuming naively that things will be less nuts like one day. i'm not sure things are going to be any less nuts between now and november 3rd. we're going to speak tonight here on this show with the attorney general for the state of michigan. she's going to be hear live in just a moment. today federal and state authorities announced dozens of felony charges against 13 armed far-right alleged conspirators who, among other things, are accused of plotting the kidnapping and potential assassination of michigan's democratic governor gretchen whitmer. now, at least some of these guys who were arrested and charged today appear to be associated with a strand of the boogaloo movement, the far-right, trump-era weird terrorist movement that not only desires but seeks to bring about a

second civil war in the united states, a convulsive race war to basically destroy this country. nice folks. you will remember the armed right-wing groups that stormed into the michigan state capitol in may, threatening among other things to lynch governor whitmer at the time over restrictions designed to slow the spread of covid in that state. that march on the michigan state capitol was not the only -- was not only the occasion for president trump doing his liberate michigan thing at the time, encouraging those protests. when it came to the people with guns storming into that state capitol, president trump went out of his way to call them, quote, very good people. he said at the time in may about the people with rifles storming into the michigan state legislature, quote, the governor of michigan, he said, should give a little. these are very good people. see them. talk to them, he said. make a deal. that's what the president said in may about those armed

protesters who, among other things, were threatening to lynch the governor. state and federal law enforcement now say that within weeks of that encouragement from the president, armed right-wing groups in michigan were actually casing the governor's home, planning to buy explosives, practicing how to build ieds, and plotting their escape routes for how they'd get away from the cops either after killing governor whitmer or with her in tow as their kidnapping victim. so, again, we'll have the michigan attorney general joining us momentarily. we're also watching tonight the strange and we expect to be developing story of this guy, who has now been hit with federal felony charges. his name is elliott broidy. he had a senior role in the trump inaugural committee. he was a major donor to the trump campaign. not long after trump's inauguration, the republican party in this since deleted press release announced its new national finance team under the

leadership of steve wynn, who has since had to give up his casino empire in a huge sexual harassment scandal. the party brought on -- they announced in that press release they brought on as deputy finance chairman, a nice group of guys, michael cohen, the president's former personal lawyer, who would go on to multiple felony convictions and a jail term. they also in that same press release announced elliott broidy as a national deputy chairman of the republican party. he is also as of today now charged with multiple felonies. they also -- the other guy they announced in that press release that day was louis dejoy, the guy who president trump put in charge of messing up the post office, right, as covid made us all change to vote by mail for this election. steve wynn, elliott broidy, michael cohen, and louis dejoy all in the same press release, all announced as having these

major new roles in the national republican party all on the same day. couldn't happen to a nicer bunch. i will just reiterate that the national republican party has since deleted that press release from their website, but it's a real thing. elliott broidy has now, as i mentioned, been charged with multiple felonies. he's charged basically with taking money illegally from foreign sources to get the justice department to drop certain prosecutions. but elliott broidy is tied up in a whole bunch of stuff. all the scandals involving the trump inaugural, he was a senior figure in the trump inaugural. broidy, you may also remember, was embroied in a hush money payment scheme that was almost literally a carbon copy of the one president trump got embroiled in with porn star stormy daniels. i mean literally it was a copied thing. it does seem like the lawyers involved in both the trump hush money payoff and the broidy hush money payoff, the lawyers may have used the exact same documents and the exact same fake names for both broidy and

trump's hush money deals. elliott broidy was also the key link to the trump campaign and the trump administration for convicted pedophile george nader, who for some reason had tons of access to the highest levels of the trump campaign, the trump transition, and even the trump administration. george nader is now in jail, probably forever, on child pornography and child sex trafficking charges. his business arrangements with elliott bringdy, with this guy from the rnc and the trump inaugural committee, that business relationships between george nader and elliott broidy remain murky. but with broidy himself facing federal felony charges, maybe more will come out about that too. all in the lead-up to the president's re-election effort. elliott broidy is expected to plead guilty, at least that's what these court filings look like today. we shall see. tonight just before we got on the air, a federal judge in ohio told the republican secretary of state there that ohio has to put

back the drop boxes for people to drop off their absentee ballots. this is another one of those places where republicans are trying to make it as hard as possible to vote. specifically ohio republicans have been trying to pull the same thing that texas republicans are doing right now, which is that they've tried to make it so there's only one place in every county where people can drop off their ballots. instead of letting local election boards in the county decide what's best and most convenient for their voters, both in texas and in ohio, republican state officials there have said, no, no, no. there's only one place in each county where you can drop these things off no matter how big the county is and no matter how inconvenient that is. frank larose is the republican secretary of state in ohio. he had conjured this new rule for this election by which he said you could only have a drop box at the county elections board, and that's it. there could be no other place you could drop off any ballots in any one county. we don't know where he conjured that rule from. he said he was bound to

establish that new rule for this election out of somewhere. tonight a federal judge told him to knock it off and said, actually in ohio, counties can make their own diecisions about where drop boxes go, how many there are, and where they will be. we'll see how far republicans try to fight that, to take more of the drop boxes away, to make it harder for you to have a place to drop your ballot off. tonight in the even more eek waltly matched swing state of wisconsin, republicans are doing better in their efforts to make voting as unnecessarily difficult as possible. a federal appeals court has now sided with wisconsin republicans who have said they don't want the state to count any ballots that arrive in the mail after election day. now, once you've mailed your ballot, it's the post office's responsibility to get it delivered. you can't control ou quickly it gets delivered, and with louis dejoy in charge of the postal service, there's a lot of reason to worry about how long the post office will take. the previous plan in wisconsin is that your vote had to be

postmarked by election day, but they'd keep receiving them and counting them up to six days after the election. now that has been blocked. wisconsin republicans say if your vote isn't there by election day, they don't want to count it. so far a federal appeals court siding with republicans in wisconsin. wisconsin republicans have also for now at least succeeded in their efforts to make it harder to adequately staff polling places for the election. if you have been thinking about volunteering to be a poll worker, if you have been thinking that this year you might want to volunteer to help out at a polling place on election day to help make sure the election runs smoothly, i will tell you right now wisconsin is one of the states that really needs more poll workers right now, especially because wisconsin republicans are having some success in their fight to make it harder to ensure that all parts of the state are going to have enough volunteers on election day. so if you are within the sound of my voice out there in wisconsin, if you are in good health and you feel up to it and you can spare the time, your state needs you. find out if you can be a polling

place volunteer. just google "poll worker volunteer wisconsin." it takes you right to the landing page to do it. that actually works in any state by the way. if you're thinking about volunteering to be a poll worker, now's the time to do it. and it's easy to find out in any state. just google poll worker, volunteer, and then the name of your state. it works. but in wisconsin in particular, they really need poll workers right now, particularly because of what republicans are doing to try to make it harder to get poll workers at every voting location. i mean it is quite a thing what republicans are doing there right now. trying to undo all the efforts to make the election run smoothly, to make it possible for people to vote despite the covid risk. i mean wisconsin is in crisis right now in covid. wisconsin is top three in the country right now in terms of how bad their covid situation is. it's really bad in north dakota. it's bad in south dakota. it's bad in a number of other states, but wisconsin is setting

records almost daily now for new cases, for the number of new covid patients hospitalizes, for new deaths from covid. the governor of wisconsin just announced that a new field hospital has to be opened at the state fairgrounds because so many wisconsin hospitals are hitting capacity and getting overwhelmed. we are hearing stories now from wisconsin and from the dakotas as i mentioned about covid patients being turned away. doctors spending hours on the phone trying to find a hospital that will take a transferred covid patient because everybody's full and there's nowhere to put anyone. this was the news today in the grand forks herald. bismarck, dickinson, and ninek, north dakota, managing heavy patient volumes. as of yesterday, there are a grand total of three icu beds available in all of bismarck, north dakota. bismarck is the state capital. bismarck now has three icu beds total for the whole city. in the college town of

dickinson, north dakota, there's one icu bed left. in minot, home to 40,000 people, there's only two icu beds left as of yesterday. the associated press has this report out of south dakota today. one local tribal health department in south dakota trying to get a patient who was ill with covid-19 moved to a hospital that could better take care of that patient, a hospital that was more capable. that local health authority in south dakota reports that they called 14 different hospitals in south dakota to try to find a place to transfer their patient. all 14 of the hospitals they contacted said they could not take a new covid patient. and, in fact, they were all trying to divert their own new covid patients to other facilities themselves. 14 hospitals, no, we can't take your patient. we're looking for places to move our patients too. that local health department in south dakota serving the cheyenne river sioux tribe, they eventually found one hospital that could take their patient.

but in order to find a place for their patient, they had to go across state lines into minnesota. the country is heading into what looks like another peak in terms of cases. in 39 states, case numbers are going up right now. meanwhile, federally the secretary of health and human services this week took a meeting with the flat earth society of covid. health secretary alex azar this week taking a meeting with three of the leading proponents of the idea that everyone should get it, that we should aim for herd immunity. masks are a bad idea. social distancing is a bad idea. closing anything is a bad idea. get everybody together. the more infection we all get, the getter. that will give us herd immunity and never mind that it might kill millions of americans along the way. these guys really are the flat earth society of covid-19. but the secretary of health and human services met with these

people on monday, touting that he was meeting with them. these are the people promoting mass infection of as many americans as possible. health secretary tweeted this after that meeting. quote, we heard strong reinforcement of the trump administration's strategy. oh, good. the president is positive and has been hospitalized for it within the past week. the president is knnow refusingo do the next presidential debate, but he is threatening to start up his mask-free rallies again. the president's behavior and statements are erratic enough right now even for him that the speaker of the house is talking openly about the 25th amendment to the constitution and the process by which the president might be declared unfit. the president demanded in a rambling nearly hour-long cable news call-in today that president obama must be arrested and charged, and vice president

biden must be arrested and charged, and vice president biden shouldn't be allowed to run for president against him. he also said hillary clinton must be arrested and indicted too. the president also telling his interviewer today that he feels fantastic. maybe he does. he also said that as far as he's concerned, he's not contagious. he can tell. he doesn't think he is. i don't think i'm contagious at all. and now he says he will hit the campaign trail again and start traveling. is he contagious, though? i mean why do you think it is that the white house won't say when the president got infected, right? they've told us when they say he got his positive test, which was thursday night a week ago. but they won't say when he got his last negative test before that. so we don't know if when they tested him on thursday, he'd already been positive for a week or two weeks or three weeks or a day or five hours. we don't know.

they won't say when his negative test was before that, which would tell us how long the president has likely been infected. why won't they tell us about his previous negative test results? i mean they used to tell us about his negative test results all the time. i feel like this has kind of gone down the memory hole a little bit. but, look, you can find these headlines. this is march 14th. trump tested negative for the coronavirus, white house physician says. then in april, april 2nd, trump again tests negative for coronavirus, white house says. then in may, may 7th, trump and pence test negative. and then later in may, trump on his latest coronavirus test -- i tested positively toward negative, which is president trump speak for "i tested negative." the white house has been touting the president's negative covid test results all along. they never considered it secret. they never before considered that information to be private

or some kind of, you know, hipaa violation to announce that the president tested negative for the coronavirus. they used to freely broadcast that information over a period of weeks and months. hey, got a negative test. he got another negative test on this test. he tested negative again. they used to tell us that all the time, but now they won't say. why do you think they won't say? >> doctor, what was the date of the president's last negative test? >> i'm not going to get into all the testing going back. >> was he tested on tuesday before he went to the debate, and then was he tested on thursday morning when he went to -- >> yeah, i'm not going to give you a detailed readout with time stamps of every time the president's tested. >> do you remember when he had his last negative test? >> i don't want to go backwards. >> when was his last negative test and what "h" was his viral load? >> everyone wants that. >> we don't know when his last negative test was. will we? >> we don't normally get into the testing protocol for the test. >> obviously you know when he last tested negative.

why -- >> i don't know when he last tested negative. i've answered this question a number of times. >> why can't the white house say when he last tested negative? >> look, we've addressed this. we're not asking to go back through a bunch of records and look backwards. >> when was president trump last tested before his positive result? >> alison, you'll have to ask the president's team that. >> when was the president's last negative test? >> i sknt reveal that at this point. the doctors would like to keep it private since it's his private -- >> why? >> my understanding is it's his private medical history. my understanding is we're not making it public at this time. >> he never kept it private before. it was never before considered to be part of his private medical history. they will not say. they were happy to say multiple times before whenever the president tested negative, week after week, month after month, whenever he tested negative, they would tell us. now they won't say. now it's a secret. how long do you think he's been infected for? when do you think he actually got his last negative test? i mean they're telling us he

tested positive a week ago tonight. in the days before that, he had a rally in minnesota. he had a fund-raiser in new jersey. he had a debate with joe biden in ohio. he did a huge event at the rose garden where no one wore masks and nobody social distanced. he did an event with gold star families, families who lost a loved one in the u.s. military. he did an event with gold star families inside at the white house. nobody wore masks. no one social distanced. he did all of those things in the days before the white house tells us he tested positive. did the president bother to get tested before he did any of those events, any of those no-mask, no social distancing events? did he? what are the anothers the president was positive for all of those things? it's not an issue of small concern, in part because the president is now blaming the gold star families at the white house, at that sunday event before he tested positive. he's blaming the gold star

families for having infected him, which is astonishing in its own right, right? but why is he saying that? did the president himself test negative before that event? isn't it possible that he was the one who was positive at that event and that he was the one potentially spreading it to them? i mean the president's health isn't supposed to be a secret. on the issue of him testing negative for covid, even the trump white house has not treated that before as a secret. the bizarre secrecy about the timing of the president's infection means what they are keeping secret from us all now is information about the president as an agent of infection himself while he is actively, publicly blaming military families, blaming the families of america's fallen servicemen and service women for having infected him. yeah, they probably gave it to him. put up or shut up. you're going to make an allegation like that, prove it. when did he get his last test? why are military families the first ones you think to blame?

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joining us tonight for the interview is khizr khan, he's a gold star father who's son died trying to stop a suicide bomber from trying to attack his unit in iraq. he paid tribute to his son at the democratic convention, at one point holding up his pocket constitution and challenging then-candidate donald trump to read it. mr. trump at the time was calling for a ban on muslims entering the country. the president responded by attacking mr. khan and his family pretty mercilessly in the days after that event. mr. khan, thank you so much for being here today. it's a really honor to have you here with us. >> thank you, rachel. thank you for being wise of

democracy. thank you. for many years, you have brightened our hearts and our homes. thank you. >> oh, that's -- i'm very moved by you saying that, sir. let me just ask you about the president's remarks. i feel like part of what bothered the president so much about you and the way you've spoken about your son's sacrifice and about the way you've spoken about the president is that i feel like you do actually have some insight into how the president thinks. and i think that's what bothers him about you. what is your take on why the president would have blamed gold star families of all people for his covid infection? >> rachel, donald trump does not realize, has no comprehension or understanding of what sacrifice and service is.

calling autocrats and authoritarians his friends. he has no understanding of what service is, what service to nation, service to country is. he is a reckless president. 210,000 deaths because of his lies and because of his secrecy, holding the information from us. on 26th of september, there was a white house event that nobody took any precaution. on 27th, they invited gold star families to the white house. he does not understand that this nation respects gold star families the most. these gold star families have done something for this nation, for this country that donald trump cannot imagine, cannot comprehend.

he is handicapped of that understanding. it is that event in the rose garden that has spread the coronavirus among his mute enablers, and now so many military leaders that it has become a matter of national security. it is for that reason that he's trying to find to point fingers, to blame somewhere for this nation has understood. this nation knows him well now that he has a habit. he's operating on putin's playbook to blame anyone but himself for this coronavirus -- for its spread, and he will not stop up until we all in america vote him out. he sees that. he foresees his defeat.

his enablers see that, and that is why they are trying to blame anyone and everyone. but we all need to get out as america needs to get out and vote. that is the power that we all have to vote him out so that he will have no room to object, no room to call the election fraud. guess who is at this time cherishing and enjoying this moment that donald trump has caused in our nation? it's our adversaries. he is playing their games, but we have all understood, this nation has understood we are going to vote him out and vote his enablers, vote his mute enablers out. >> mr. khan, you used that phrase twice, the mute enablers of this president. i think that one of the things that we have found flummoxing as a nation and as citizens watching the president's

behavior is that while we might be able to wrap our heads around why the president would attack war heroes, why the president would attack people who have been wounded or killed in service of their country as your son was, while we might be able to imagine something about the president's own pathology in repeatedly doing that, it is -- we don't expect it of the political class more broadly. we don't expect it for more than an individual who we might see as part of there just being something wrong with them. and the president's mute enablers, as you describe them, are now trying to clean up after the president blaming his covid infection on gold star families, seemingly without any evidence at all. and i have to ask if that makes it worse for you, that it's not just an attack from the president, that it's everybody in the administration who is trying to make it okay that he keeps carrying out attacks like this against you and other people who have gone through the kinds of sacrifices that you have, these unimaginable

sacrifices for the country. >> well, i -- i can only say this, that they all see that this titanic is sinking, and they are trying to jump out of it as soon as they can, for they are afraid. they are afraid of their careers, their livelihood, their families. one thing i notice in your broadcast, i must comment on that because that is one of my area of legal practice, and that is hipaa privacy. these doctors, they better watch their white coats and their privilege to practice. i want them to hear before they utter the word hipaa privacy trying to keep this information secret, this information away from public. th there is a public health concern

exception to hipaa, where if your patient has become a public concern, public health concern, you must disclose the details so that public health concerns could be addressed. i hope his doctor is listening. i hope he will read public health concern exception to hipaa privacy rule. >> mr. khizr khan, gold star father, thank you for making time to be here tonight. i know you don't have to do this. it means the world, though. >> thank you. >> all right. we've got much more ahead here tonight. as i mentioned, i will be talking live in just a moment with michigan's attorney general. again, 13 conspirators accused today in michigan by state and federal authorities in a plot to kidnap and potentially assassinate the democratic governor of the great state of michigan. that state's attorney general joins us live next. stay with us. stay with ushe sups died. how do trump and mcconnell respond?

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good afternoon. earlier today attorney general dana nessel was joined by officials from the department of justice and the fbi to announce state and federal charges against 13 members of two militia groups who were preparing to kidnap and possibly kill me. when i put my hand on the bible and took the oath of office 22 months ago, i knew this job would be hard. but i'll be honest. i never could have imagined anything like this. >> i'll be honest. i never could have imagined anything like this. imagine having to do your press conference and say, they were arrested for planning to possibly kill me. governor gretchen whitmer today. today federal and state authorities announced charges against 13 men, saying at least 6 of them had hatched a detailed plan to kidnap michigan's democratic governor gretchen whitmer and potentially kill her. those six men were arrested on federal conspiracy to kidnap charges last night.

the criminal complaint against them has some remarkable detail. you should know what's in the charging documents here today. they document how one of the alleged ringleaders said he, quote, needed 200 men to storm the capitol building in lansing, michigan, and take hostages, including the governor. that suspect said he planned to try the governor for treason. according to the criminal complaint, the group wanted to execute their plan before the election next month. the court documents show that during a meeting in july, the suspects discussed attacking a michigan state police facility. one of the men also suggested shooting up the governor's vacation home in michigan. on another occasion one of the suspects said to have said that their best opportunity to abduct governor whitmer would be when she was arriving at or leaving either her personal vacation home or the governor's official residence. that suspect described it as a, quote, snatch and grab, man. grab the bleepin' governor. that suspect, according to the complaint, later said that after

kidnapping governor whitmer, the group would remove her to a secure location in wisconsin for what they called, quote, trial. the charging documents show that several members of the group participated in firearms training and attempting to make and test improvised explosive devices. they also tri-stasurveilled gov whitmer's vacation home. on one of those occasions, one of those men suggested the demolition of a nearby bridge in order to hinder a police response should they succeed in kidnapping or killing the governor. investigators say that the group's meetings were conducted in the basement of a vacuum store in grand rapids, a store owned by one of the suspects. they allegedly accessed those meetings through a trapdoor hidden under a recognize on the main floor of the shop. despite that and despite the fact the men communicated using encrypted apps, the group's every move was being covered by

informants. in addiction the state of michi charged seven other men with providing material support for terrorist activities, being members of a gang, and using firearms while committing felonies. i think there was a perception today that these might have been overlapping federal and state charges for the same group of men. this is six men charged federally and seven different men charged at the state level. the men charged at the state level are all said to be linked to an arm ted right-wing group that ridiculously calls themselves the wolverine watchm watchmen. fantasize much? today the state attorney general says they sought to instigate a second civil war. they'd engaged in planning and

training in order to potentially kidnap the governor and other government officials. sobering isn't the right word here, but this is at least a very sobering story to see these parallel federal and state charges for two different groups of large numbers of people who are apparently co-conspirators or allegedly co-conspirators in this plot. it's just a remarkable story, and the michigan attorney general dana nessel will be here with us next to talk about it. xp so you can quickly check the markets? yeah, actually i'm taking one last look at my dashboard before we board. excellent. and you have thinkorswim mobile- -so i can finish analyzing the risk on this position. you two are all set. have a great flight. thanks. we'll see ya. ah, they're getting so smart. choose the app that fits your investing style. ♪

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the individuals in custody are suspected to have attempted to identify the home of law enforcement officers in order to target them, make threats of violence, institute a civil war and engaged in planning and training for an operation to attack the capitol building of michigan and kidnapp government officials, including the governor of michigan.

joining federal law enforcement officials in a remarkable joint operation that resulted in the arrest and charges against 13 alleged armed far right conspirators who officials describe as trying to bring about a second civil war in part via a plot to kidnapp the democratic michigan governor, gretchen whitmer. joining me is the attorney general for the state of michigan. i didn't expect to be speaking to you this soon on this topic. this is a remarkable operation you and your colleagues unveiled today. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me here. >> can you tell us about the joint nature of the operation? it has been an interesting thing to follow as we teased out what it really is. it is so scary on the face. we have six people charged federally, seven people charged

at the state level. appears like the groups were engaged in separate but related activities? >> well, the groups were working together but for some of them federal charged seemed appropriate and others state charges. i want to reach out to thank the federal authorities and fbi and also the u.s. attorneys of the eastern and western districts of michigan who work in concert with the michigan state police and of course with our office, the department of attorney generals. this was a joint effort by the state and then the federal government to the work together in this effort. there remain many groups out there and individuals who are domestic terrorists. it is a source of great concern in our state. it is not just a michigan problem.

at this juncturue urit is an american problem. >> can you tell our viewers if there are links between any of the people that were charged and the high profile demonstrations we saw in michigan. armed right wing groups stormed the legislature in order to make their displeasure known. they threatened to lynch the governor in terms of their political rhetoric at that event. are their links between the demonstrations and the individuals who are charged here today? >> i would say absolutely there are links. those individuals were there. if you saw any of the photographs from that event you might remember a picture that my state senator took where you see armed gunmen who are hovering over the state senate as they are actually in session. some of the individuals are the same people who were charged in

the indictments. it served as a rekruting station for engaged membership and to recruit new members. absolutely those events were crucial and pivotal in terms of them organizing and having new members joining the organization. >> do you believe any of the plots were imminent. do you believe governor whitmer was in real physical danger? >> i think that all of the organizing and all of the trainings that they were doing and all of the tactical work was leading towards this event. there was mention, it seems, like there was an intention to carry out the plots prior to the election. absolutely we believe that the governor could have been in grave danger, and as i always

say i would rather have a poor conspiracy case than the strongest homicide case. nothing more important than saving the governor's life. i think we have a strong and compelling state case. activities of the individuals at any time they could have carried out any plans. they were ready. they were prepared. we are fortunate no lives were lost. >> michigan's state attorney general. thank you for being here tonight. i am sure this has been a really, really intense day. thanks for helping us understand. >> i will say one of the more bizarre knock on events after the charges were announced. the president multiple times has taken to twitter to attack governor whitmer of michigan.

just tonight governor whitmer of michigan has done a terrible job. open up your state, schools, churches. attacking the governor under who the plot was just interrupted by state and federal law enforcement. timing, sir. we will be right back. enforceme. timing, sir. we will be right back. knowing who we are is hard. it's hard. eliminate who you are not first, and you're going to find yourself where you need to be. ♪ the race is never over.

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what a newsday this has been. i love my job. i do. i absolutely love my job. i wake up every day and i am excited to see what we are going to be covering. i have to admit i wake up and look at the news now, i am doing it kind of like this. like a gory movie, afraid to look directly. that is what we do. i will see you again tomorrow night. now time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. >> you just broke news with the attorney general as far as i can