after this election i wonder how many of them will become democrats and that could push democrats into a more centrist type of place. i think some of that may be on display today during the supreme court hearings. keep an eye out for that. that was "way too early." thank you for getting up with us. "morning joe" starts right now. put aside all of the issues of what political implications a rally has and jut put that aside and look at it purely in the context of public health. we know that that is asking for trouble when you do that. we have seen that when you have situations of congregant settings with a lot of people without masks and the data speak for themselves. >> with that warning from dr. anthony fauci, president trump's rally in florida, everybody squished together. governor ron desantis high fiving multiple people and then wiping his nose.

it was an utter medical mess. >> it could be of course for a state that many fear is going to become a hot spot, anthony fauci -- well, in the numbers, we don't need doctors to tell us the numbers but we're getting new cases and a real fear among medical health care experts that we're exploding into another terrible time. you know, willie, i was watching last night as ron desantis, the governor of this state, who is supposed to be setting an example which of course he hasn't from the very beginning was going through the crowd, high fiving, you know? wiping his nose, high fiving people, everything. and i -- i thought back to images of these troubling regimes that came in turbulent times. you know, you see the old black

and white films of these crowds, of these mobs and you wonder what planet did they come from? and then you realize as you're watching it in real time that they're from my home state. >> yeah. >> and i really -- i am quite confident not 50 years from now or 20 years from now, but five years from now people are going to look back on that scene and go what the hell were they thinking? they have grandparents, they have older mom and dads. they have kids with underlying conditions. what were they thinking? what was the governor thinking? what was the president of the united states thinking? what point was mark meadows trying to prove yesterday? what point was mike lee trying

to prove yesterday? what point was lindsey graham trying to prove yesterday? we can pity them. i feel sorry -- >> worried for their friends and family and colleagues. >> i fear for their friends and their grandparents, but it is -- well, it's just -- it's inexplicable. >> well, it starts at the top and president trump has said from the beginning of this that he thinks masks are weird, he doesn't like to wear them. he hasn't shown any willingness to enforce social distancing despite what everyone around him has said. when you put the pictures up and it could have been from a year ago. it could have been a scene from eight months ago when we didn't know how bad it could be. and it could have been a scene from before president trump -- yes, president trump himself contracted coronavirus. remember there was some talk that perhaps when he was

diagnosed with coronavirus that there would be humility from him and there he is standing on stage what 11 days after his diagnosis of coronavirus. no mask, no social distancing. about 7,000 people in florida gathered, standing and cheering, following his lead. and here's what the president said up on that stage last night about how close he actually wanted to get to his supporters. >> and we've got to remember i said it right at the beginning, the cure cannot be worse than the problem itself. but if you don't feel good about it, if you want to stay -- relax, stay. but if you want to get out there, get out. one thing with me, the nice part. i went through it, now they say i'm immune. i feel so powerful. i'll walk into the audience -- i'll walk in there and i'll kiss everyone in that audience. i'll kiss the guys and the

beautiful women and the -- everybody. i'll just give you a big, fat kiss. no, there is something nice. i don't have been to locked up in my basement. i wouldn't allow it to happen. when you're the president you can't lock yourself in the basement and it's risky, it's risky, but you've got to get out. but it does give you a good feeling when you can beat something and now they say you're immune. i don't know how long. some people say for life, some four months. every time i hear it, it gets shorter and shorter because they want it to be as bad as possible. >> he wants to go out in the crowd and give out big, fat kisses. in a crowded rally in florida, here's what dr. fauci, one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases was telling shep smith on cnbc. >> if we don't change and make

masks mostly universal, what are we facing in fall and winter? >> we are facing a lot of trouble. we would like to see the percent positivity coming down and unfortunately if you look at the states of the country, the midwest, the northwest, the states that you mentioned including iowa instead of seeing it going the other direction, down, we are seeing an increase in test positivity. >> so joe, a tale of two pandemics there. president trump out with a big crowd, no masks. saying i want to come out and kiss you, i want to hug you. you have to get out, it's risky, but you have to do it. then obviously more sober and informed analysis from dr. fauci. >> gosh. >> well, and of course donald trump in the rally mocking scientists. >> the example in chief. >> mocking doctors saying oh, some say you're immune for life. nobody says that. donald, why are you lying to your people? nobody says that.

nobody said you're immune for life. nobody said you're immune for years. you know, i was told by a doctor a couple of months ago, immunity will probably last three months. that was my personal doctor. that wasn't somebody at johns hopkins, that wasn't somebody from the best institutions in the world. he said, immunity is about three or four months and it's showing, immunity is about three or four months so you have donald trump saying that science is trying to make this sound as bad as possible. again, the example is just absolutely horrific. >> science is guiding us. >> all of the numbers are going up and again, 216,000 people are dead. 216,000 americans are dead from a virus that donald trump said in january was one person coming in from china and soon that

would be going away. >> like a miracle it would go away. >> he was saying that the same team that he told bob woodward on tape that he knew how bad this was. that it was a killer. that it was five times as bad as the flu. that young people could get it as much as old people could get it. that it's bad for them too. donald trump said a month after that, after he had been warned by his own trade representative, that 500,000 american souls could die after he was warned from his national security adviser that this was going to be the worst crisis of his presidency. a month later, he was telling a crowd in michigan that 15 people had it and soon that would be down to zero. then he said that it was going to go away magically in the spring. then he said they'd reopen by may. i mean, one lie after the other. donald trump denying there was anything serious about this and now 216,000 americans are dead, are dead.

their families, 216,000 families have mourned one personal catastrophe after another and donald trump is making a joke about it. let's bring in axios' jim vandehei and shawna thomas. well, let's just show this now. let's do this free form. let's show a poll from wisconsin. polling from "the new york times," sienna college. joe biden leads by ten points over the president. 51% to 41%. one of the better polls out there. time is running out. biden is up three since september. donald trump's down two and you have the president of the united states talking this way in florida while field hospitals are being set up in wisconsin.

i'm curious your take on exactly what this is going to do to voters in the badger state, especially seniors. >> well, i think there's -- i think that's a great point on seniors. i think there's a disconnect, a big chunk of the population and that if you're younger you probably can get away with going to the rally like that and bad things might not happen. i think where he's getting hurt and the reason that the numbers are plummeting among older voters is they're staying at home. they're talking to their doctor just like you talk to your doctor and none of the doctors are saying go out, rip off your mask and go to a rally. they're saying don't go to church or a restaurant. it's so incongruent for them to change their lives and then seeing president trump and the doctors are saying don't even think about it for a second. and that is the reason that trump is in florida. he should be in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania and instead he has to defend florida which once upon a time looked

pretty good for him and now looks almost as bad in some respects as the state of wisconsin. so he has a problem here. he has a map getting bigger. he doesn't have a big bag of tricks because he doesn't have enough money to overcome the biden money machine and he's basically counting on loyalty, republicans who were with him before to somehow join forces with a bunch of republicans who he thinks are hiding in the wood work which they might be. but when you're down ten, nobody thinks a hidden vote is ten. might be four or three, whatever it is. it's not ten. so i didn't really fully understand the strategy that he's had over the last month as you guys have talked about. other than like you said, the adoring fans. we did the axios study and we looked at everything that every single republican said about him over the years and not a single

word, not a negative word, not in any public forum and the reason is those people love him and they care more about the president than their member of the congress or the republican party. if the president says don't wear a mask, he could be less than two weeks out from the coronavirus and holding a rally and there's people around him cheering without a mask. why? because he's the president and they hang on every word that he says. that's why dr. fauci gets out on the tv every single day to sound the alarm because it's, again, incongruent with the science. so what we'll know in a couple of weeks if there's all these people who think this is the right way to go. >> it doesn't make any sense because the covid numbers are going up and there are states having real problems and hospitals that are still really struggling. joe, it defies logic, mark meadows yesterday refusing to

talk to reporters through a mask as if he was being asked to do something insane. mike lee refusing to wear a mask in the hearing. let's take a look at that mark meadows situation because reporters wanted to get information from him but he refused. let's look at why. >> i can tell you why, let me do this. let me pull this away. >> pull away. >> and then that way i can take this off to talk. i'm more than ten feet away. well i'm not going to talk to the press. >> what is that? >> here's the problem. he refuses to talk through a mask and people who are covering this story, they already know that several white house correspondents have contracted the coronavirus and others are in quarantine because they were exposed. they're just trying to do their jobs safely and this clown if i may is playing games with masks

on top of the fact that we had mike lee in the hearing who was diagnosed positive with coronavirus, am i correct, sitting in the hearing with no mask. this is beyond insanity and i just wonder are there members of this campaign, are there members in the white house, whoever is left, whoever is not in quarantine or who has tested positive for the coronavirus, who has half a brain who can tell donald trump when people are dying, you are losing. >> no, he hasn't listened. and we're not surprised. what is surprising is that people like mike lee would be that inconsiderate and that reckless with the lives of people around him. that mark meadows would be that inconsiderate and reckless with the lives of people around them. when -- i really -- i can't imagine being part of a macho death cult that mark meadows obviously feels he needs to be a

part of, that mike lee feels he needs to be a part of. where you're that inconsiderate to other people. if i'm talking to reporters and they ask for my own safety for me to keep on a mask, i keep on a mask. >> of course. >> i keep on a mask. who would not do that? it's really remarkable and, willie, you look at, you know, who can tell donald trump that this is insanity? nobody. but who should be telling these republicans who are trying to be macho by putting other people's lives in danger. who can tell them that this is wrong headed? well, let's look at the michigan poll that came out yesterday. there are senior citizens in michigan too. donald trump's badly underperforming there among senior citizens for a reason. he's down eight points, losing 48% to 40%. you look at the state of

florida, even where there is a -- willie, the rally in sanford last night, for every person that was there were five seniors who saw that. on their tv. maybe ten, maybe 100. and just said, what does this man not get? what the hell is wrong with him? we have friends. we have lost loved ones. we have buried our friends from our retirement communities and this guy is making a joke of a disease that has shattered our lives over the past year. that's what seniors in florida are thinking. >> he's killed thousands of people in this state. >> a lot of seniors in florida are thinking that's what a lot of seniors in arizona are thinking. in a lot of these states, not

all of them but enough to explain why donald trump is so outperforming hillary clinton and every one of the rallies they might as well put up a biden for president sign in the back. >> there's a reason he's minus 25 with the seniors, that's a huge number. it's because of what you're seeing right there, as you say. people have eyes, they have loved ones who got sick, maybe they got sick, their kids can't go to school. the president is flouting it. we saw those pictures just a second ago. he's chucking the mask around like frisbees as if to say, are you happy, we have five or six masks that he distributed to the crowd as he walked out in a symbolic gesture. the path, shawna thomas, to freedom, if you believe that wearing a mask somehow is not

just not macho but an infringement on your freedom t path to freedom is to wear the mask. if you wear a mask, if we enforce social distancing, we can get back to life, get our kids back to school. but for some reason, and you expect it from donald trump but everyone who's fallen in line behind him from his chief of staff mark meadows all the way down feels that they cannot cross him on that. i mean, you have mike lee who is just coming out of having covid-19 not wearing a mask. i mean, amy coney barrett wore a mask sitting there and listening for six hours and mike lee would not wear one. >> well, judge amy coney barrett has seven kids as we learned multiple times yesterday and has to try to protect her family. so she's thinking about that. i think what strikes me about chief of staff mark meadows' moment with i believe cnn's kristen wilson was those reporters are americans.

they're journalists and i get that attacking journalists is a thing that this white house does and that works for them and that plays well, but taking a step back. they're americans, and if he was somewhere that americans wanted to ask him a question, he didn't just walk by, he was actually trying to pull the microphone back he wanted to talk and get their point of view out there, if he was doing that with people not journalists in the hall of the capitol hill, i don't -- i hope he wouldn't have acted like that. i hope he would have respected their wishes. and, you know, that really, really strikes me. i think the other thing about these campaign events that we have to remember separating president trump from possible people in the campaign or the white house who are trying to possibly modify how the president talks about this virus, president trump knows what worked in 2016. and that all of these people

underestimated him, even though he was getting these huge crowds all over the country in 2016 and he thinks those crowds equated his win. and so if he is behind as he seems to be in a lot of state polling as well as national polling, he needs those crowds. he needs those tv views. he needs that -- the entire spectacle. the show must go on, right? but we are not in 2016 anymore. we are in 2020. there is a virus raging through the country that people think is going to get worse. and he's still using that old playbook and that old playbook reminds everybody especially since the president tested positive for covid-19 it reminds everybody that we are in the middle of the pandemic. he cannot escape that. so this is how he's going to proceed, then as joe pointed out about all of the senior citizens and you pointed out, willie,

that the polling is showing that senior citizens are not with him the way they were in 2016, all the senior citizens are reminded they haven't hugged their grandchildren in possibly six months depending on where they are in their health or they're in a nursing home that no one can come visit. if he doesn't get to the reality that we are, it will keep reminding people that he's not taking covid-19 seriously and that's an electoral problem. >> it is, it is all over the country and, jim vandehei, you look at the numbers that came out yesterday, "the new york times"/sienna polls. michigan, eight points. i suspect that they might be tighter than that in the end. a good bit tighter than that in the end, but those are two states that the trump campaign have written off.

i mean, trump's going there to wisconsin i think this weekend, but word inside the campaign is they understand they're going to get shut out in the upper midwest. they have got to throw everything at pennsylvania. but if they are -- if wisconsin and michigan are now firmly in biden's camp and arizona seems to be breaking that way, what's the pathway for donald trump? where does he focus? >> it's an almost impossible path. he needs something to break. he needs a minnesota, a michigan, a wisconsin, an arizona, somewhere that the polling looks bad for him to be wrong. otherwise, there is no path. there's a reason, you know, you talked about the same republicans, they're looking at polls and say the private polls are even worse than the public polls. starting with his debate performance and then accelerated by his handling of the coronavirus when he was diagnosed that the bottom fell out. that's the term that everyone

keeps using. maybe they're wrong. maybe he defies gravity and logic and polls and data once again. but there aren't many republicans who feel like that's possible because they're not only looking at his numbers but the senate numbers. the senate republicans who attached themselves so tightly to do you mean are seeing a similar dip in their numbers. the republican brand for the first time has been scuffed by the affiliate with trump. >> jim, can i ask you really quickly, what about in 2016? a lot of people are saying, well, this is exactly where hillary clinton was in 2016. is that true? >> it's truish. like her numbers -- they were similar to where they were right now, they were not as bad, the polls were tighter. but it's true that hillary clinton had a big lead in national public polls and that in a lot of these states she had a lead that was substantial too. she wasn't up ten points in wisconsin, i think it was about

half that at this point. so that the margin is much bigger. i said the reason for the asterisk is the same reason we have been talking about the asterisk, when you do get outside of the bubble there's an astronomical number of people who are trump supporters, who are showing their flags and boats and everything else they can paint his name on, many who haven't betted before that's what he's betting on. he's betting that the pennsylvania poll is off by a lot because there's a lot of rural voters who won't talk to the pollsters, but seeing the work load that they have and they'll come out and vote, it has to be a huge number to overcome the polls. maybe the polls are just off by 10 or 12. listen, if they're wrong this time, you might as well shut down the entire polling industry.

>> all right. losing his audio. but we got the point. >> yeah. thank you, jim vandehei, so much. as the audio was fading was again, if the polls are this off this year, just shut them down. there's no need for political polls. >> okay. jim vandehei, thank you. johnson & johnson announced monday that it has paused clinical trials for a covid-19 vaccine candidate after a participant developed an unexplained illness in the final stage of the trial. the company says the pause is in compliance with regulatory standards and this the participant's health is being evaluated. even those who are serious are an expected part of clinical large studies. we are learning more about this participant's illness and it's important to have all of the facts before we share additional

information. we'll speak with dr. vin gupta about this very development. early voting kicked off in georgia yesterday with high turnouts and long lines. the georgia secretary of state reported more than 126,000 people voted in person yesterday. a 41% increase over first day of voting in 2016. voters waited in hours long lines at polling locations. some there for nearly ten hours. the record breaking turnout may have been helped yesterday being a holiday, columbus day. though the state did see similar long waits in the state's primary in june when a record number of voters also turned out. officials said there were no issues with voting machines. dave wasserman of the cook political reports that gwinnett county has nine advanced voting centers open nine to 12 hours a day including weekends between now and the end of the month. so we have to keep an eye on

georgia to see if they get a better handle on the wait time to vote. >> and, willie, the point that i think dave was making was, hey, yeah, the lines were really long, but this isn't like texas where the governor, governor abbott, is deliberately trying to make voting as hard as possible. here in gwinnett county, there were again, there were nine different locations. they're open a good bit of time. and i think what dave's point was, hey, this was a historic crush yesterday. let's see how it plays out over the next week or so. >> massive numbers and people waiting in line for 12 hours. because it was the first day and there was a reflection of the enthusiasm and there's a reason that the trump administration is playing defense in the state oh georgia and not playing in places like michigan and

wisconsin. the braves austin riley had a leadoff home run in the top of the ninth inning to put the atlanta braves ahead of the dodgers in game one of the nlcs. riley's home run sparking a four run rally for the braves. atlanta takes the opener, 5-1. in the american league, america's team, the tampa bay rays, manuel margot had a breakout game against the astros. launching a three-run home run to put tampa on top. check this out, in right field, tumbling over that wall in foul territory and holding on. the rays within it 4-2. they have a 2-0 lead in the season. great catch there. the rays doing a public service for the nation, running the cheating astros out. >> i speak for you and all of america when i say, jesus loves the rays. >> okay. >> you know, this is an

organization that even last year, the year before, just they always punch above their weight. >> yeah. >> and it's -- i always thought this was a shame that they played in the ugliest stadium in america with a fan base that doesn't really support them the way they should support them because i'm telling you this is growing in to one of the really good, you know, top five baseball organizations. again, they get more from less than anybody there and for them to have beaten the yankees and now to be doing this to the houston astros it's pretty remarkable, isn't it? >> it's not a fluke. the way they run out their pitchers for an inning and put in a new pitcher and they have no money. they have no fans. and somehow, they're building a system that produces these teams now that are competitive every

year and more than competitive, they're now the favorite to go play in the world series. yeah. incredible organization. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> mika, would you like to add anything about baseball? >> no. we'll talk to senator richard blumenthal and plus steny hoyer will weigh in on the state of coronavirus relief negotiations. as we go to break, a note that joe's new book which my mom is loving, "saving freedom, truman, the cold war and the fight for western civilization" is coming out on november 24th. you can preorder now. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ow "morning joe" is back in a moment stick. with the freestyle libre 14 day system, a continuous glucose monitor, you don't have to. with a painless, one-second scan you can check your glucose with a smart phone or reader

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medical contributor. i want to talk about the president's rally in sanford yesterday. we have this video of -- it's in sanford, florida. we have this video of governor desantis coming in along with i believe some congressional representatives. he's high fiving everybody in the audience. and really, i know it's early in the morning and not to gross you out, but as he rounds the corner here and gets closer to the stage, pasts the post and you wait a beat or two, just about right now, governor desantis is going to use that same hand to wipe his face. dr. vin gupta, help me out here. we're in a pandemic. did anybody tell anybody in sanford, florida, or the governor? >> good morning, mika. it's interesting you talk about hand hygiene there because there was a study that was published last week showing in the absence of hand sanitizing, covid-19 if you're in an exposed environment can last on the hand for nine hours versus the common flu

about an hour and a half. obviously, he was hand sanitizing during that walk you showed us. leaders -- i use that term loosely like governor desantis we have to put up with have been unfortunately modeling bad behavior and passing laws to ban the mask mandates like the mayor of miami passed months ago. he's working against the one intervention that you were talking about that we know can save lives. his interest was never for the welfare of the floridians. >> dr. gupta, let me ask you to comb through dr. sean conley's brief memo that went out before president trump went to florida to justify him doing the event last night. he said that the president tested negative on consecutive days and he's not infectious.

can you walk us through what you saw in the memo and how much credence we should lend it? >> good morning, willie. i'm glad you asked that question because all of this is about expectation setting for the american people on what they can and cannot -- what they expect if they come down with covid-19. that letter by dr. conley is the first of its kind nationwide. when you're talking about the care of the individual with severe covid-19 pneumonia which is what the president had, in no circumstance would you ever clear an individual of what we call a rapid an tijen test. it's a quick and a cheap test meant for broad screening of the huge populations. that's the intention of the test. it's -- the fact that it's quick and cheap means that you sacrifice on quality. willie, these tests historically

have false negative rates anywhere from 30 to 50%. as we learn more, and i know the company will say oh, well, our initial results are great, but as we have learned more about the tests we know they underperformed. why they'd choose a historically poor performing test to clear the president who can get the best test in the lab is very suspicious and suggests if he got the right test he would still be positive. you can make no comment, willie, on infectiousness with this type of test. it's smoke and mirrors and it's bad for expectation setting, of course. example setting for the american people because as we talked about, he should be in quarantine for 20 days and should not be looking to treat his way out of it. >> as you look at president trump on the stage working the crowd last night, is it possible or likely he's shedding virus up on that stage?

>> it's absolutely likely and the fact that they're not actually leveling with us and giving us the right information on the right type of test, they know what the right type of test is. he should be adhering to guidelines and they're trying to justify why he's out there and it's wrong. >> he said, quote, they say i'm immune. i feel so powerful. what did you make of that statement? >> it's nonsensical. there's no scientific basis for that. first, will, we don't know what real immunity to covid-19 looks like, and number two, you don't develop true immunity ten days out that's going to protect you three months out from the potential second infection. there's no way he can confidently say that. >> with that in mind, dr. gupta, nevada man is the first confirmed case in the united states adding to the growing number of reinfections around the world.

researchers at the university of nevada published the case of the 25-year-old man who tested negative in may and now tested positive in june, suffering two infections nearly six weeks apart. according to researchers the man was infected by different strains of the virus. the second one was more potent leaving him hospitalized and required supplemental oxygen. the nevada case is the fifth confirmed case of reinfection worldwide after cases in ecuador, netherlands and belgium and hong kong. a tiny sample size, but what does that tell you? >> you know, willie, that's alarming because what we thought we knew about immunity was that if you got infected, you developed antibodies and you maybe had a window of three to four months of protection from reinfection. the six weeks of a healthy young individual, hopefully is the exception to that rule where you have the three to four month

window. a study came out that suggesting that individuals who donate plasma, the antibodies last for about 90 to 120 days. we're hoping that the case of the nevada gentleman, we hope he gets better is the exception to the rule. >> let's hope so. dr. vin gupta, thanks, we appreciate it. mika? well, after curbing the first outbreak, countries in europe are looking to be in the grip of a second wave. in italy, 5,000 new cases were recorded for the first time since march with health authorities mandating masks outdoors and preparing new restrictions such as a ban on private parties. in france the number of patients in intensive care has surpassed a peak in may. in spain, there are restrictions on leaving and entering the capital of madrid which is under a state of emergency. in the uk, health authorities

say the number of hospitalizations have quadrupled in the past three weeks and there are now more covid patients than before the government imposed a lockdown back in march. >> let's bring in the author of "the world, the brief introduction" richard haass and mark brzezinski, he served on the national security staff under bill clinton. we have a few topics to get to. i want to talk about the outbreak in europe. this should not be a surprise, we have been warned that the fall would be more difficult and we're starting to see that re-emerge in europe as well as the united states. how is europe handling it? >> it's not handling it well. as the days get shorter, people

go inside and it shows how vulnerable you are to new spikes and we are seeing it throughout europe. behavior isn't changing sufficiently given the threat. this will real implications for economic recovery. it will slow it down, it's building new barriers between and among the countries of europe. but for us, this is a real warning of what happens with premature reopenings if the way is not sufficiently -- above all if people aren't wearing masks. >> and mark brzezinski, let's move from europe to north korea right now and talk about how europe with unveiled a quote monster missile, intercontinental ballistic missiles which sends a message to the next president. i remember barack obama telling

donald trump, forget about obamacare, it will be north korea that that keeps you up at night. this president said we never had to worry about nuclear missiles coming out of north korea again, this is just a -- this is a deadly monument to donald trump's failure. how could one president have gotten an issue like north korea so wrong? >> well, thank you for having me, joe and mika. what you're seeing in north korea right now with this rolling out of the largest icbm they have ever presented is an example of why in diplomacy you don't put all your eggs in one basket. donald trump made north korea the focal point of his diplomatic engagement and put the prestige of the american presidency online in terms of engaging kim jong-un and what we see literally is an icbm in our

face. in terms of pure national security, the question is is the icbm real or some phony model. but in terms of advancing the american interest around the world, we have to keep contingencies on the table to advance our interests. we have in certain ways boxed china away from our diplomatic efforts regarding north korea. and what you're seeing now in china with this month with the leadership changes there is the emergence of more hard-liners. they are not on our side when it comes to dealing with the north koreans and we need the chinese to deal with the north korean threat. certainly as it goes to the coronavirus challenge as well, you know, the coronavirus challenge is an opportunity for vaccine diplomacy. the re-emergence of corona in europe shows that corona is not

leaving us any time soon and we others to share with us and join with us in addressing this threat. we have alienated our allies in a shared problem as you can imagine, a global pandemic. >> richard, let me ask you about north korea. most experts are saying that over the past four years, during the trump presidency, during the love letters, during the bizarre summits that north korea has actually used donald trump's bluster and his missteps to actually advance their missile weapon program, to advance their nuclear programs. what can you tell us? >> there's no arguing with that conclusion, joe. over 3 1/2 years, north korea has dramatically increased the number of nuclear weapons it has. it has increased and improved the entire missile force. this seems to be the latest example. it could mean they're either able to put larger warheads on

long range missiles. some people are speculating they're putting more than one warhead on a missile which really complicates the missile defense challenge. for me the problem isn't that the president was willing to meet with kim jong-un. the problem is that he basically was in lala land, talking about denuclearization. we never had serious arms control. we never had serious diplomacy. all or nothing diplomacy gets you nothing that's what we have here. so the situation is objectively worse than 3 1/2 years ago. >> and richard, can you talk about the eu sanctioning lukashenko, is that going to have an impact? >> well, they have some sanctions in place and they have cocked the trigger for a whole new round of sanctions. they say keep tracking down, if you don't have more elections the other sanctions will come in against you.

i think this is a last gasp by the europeans to bring about a peaceful transition. we'll see if it works. it might depend on what the guy in the kremlin decides to do. >> ambassador, what do you think? will these sanctions move towards getting the last -- europe's last dictator to back down? >> well, the eu sanctions would have more impetus if they were backed by the americans. the sad thing is that we haven't heard anything out of the american government since the eu imposed sanctions on the belarusian leader and the eu imposed sanctions on russian officials because of the poisoning of navalny. america and europe used to speak in one voice as it pertains to dictators in the former soviet bloc. do not think that putin does not notice that there's a big divide between the eu, europe, and the united states on this now. >> richard, final thought on

that point. >> well, absolutely. but we wake up every day, the great structural advantage of american policy, and mark is right, is alliances and partners. we have dozens willing to work with us, vis-a-vis, china, terrorism, you name it and the whole problem with america first, unilateralism, we are destroying what we created over the last century. >> thank you both. we'll go live to capitol hill where live confirmation hearings will resume in two hours for president trump's supreme court pick, amy coney barrett. kasie hunt joins us with her latest reporting. "morning joe" will be right back. orting "morning joe" will be right back and i helped raise my younger brother. when college felt out of reach, the kpmg future leaders program was there for me.

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i have already spoken on it. i'm not a fan of court packing but i don't want to get off on

that whole issue. i want to keep focused. the president would love nothing better than to fight about whether or not i would in fact pack the court or not pack the court, et cetera. the focus is why is he doing what he's doing now? >> you know, shawna, as much as republicans, mitch mcconnell, have savaged senate norms, political norms, they have lied through their teeth over the past four years, denying merrick garland even a hearing and then lying about a standard which they broke their own standard, there are some democrats who could constitutionally move forward and add a couple of seats a couple of years from now to the supreme court. but some have point out that the guy who has been in the senate for as long as joe biden has been in, an institutionalist, probably not -- that probably would not be the first thing that would come to mind for joe biden. >> yeah. i think one of the things that

we have to understand is if former vice president biden is elected president of the united states, he has a certain amount of political capital he will be able to spend and i think, you know, depending on how big of a landslide it might be for him, that it had more political capital versus less, this may not be what he wants to spend that political capital on. we have multiple things coming down the road. one supreme court is supposed to hear that aca case, the affordable care act, the obamacare case. if for some reason obamacare is struck down, and we wouldn't know that for multiple months and i understand that, that may be something that he has to spend the political capital on because they're running so hard on things like health care. so i think joe biden has now answered the question of court packing that he's not really going to answer it until after the election. politically, there's no good

reason to answer this question in a concrete way until after the election. and this may not be the thing that he needs to spend a lot of his -- a lot of his energy on come next year. but i do think, you know, he's leaving in some ways it open if there are democratic senators who want to talk about that, if there are democratic senators who want to put forth some kind of bills next year about the side of the supreme court, then he's not saying don't do that. he's just saying politically, this is not the thing i should be talking about right now. >> shawna thomas, thank you very much. still ahead the president returned to the campaign trail last night as if he had never had the virus. flouting safety protocols and telling his supporters it's okay to ignore lockdown measures. plus, what dr. anthony fauci is saying about the president's decision to continue holding large rallies. "morning joe" is coming right back. joe" is coming right back (vo) verizon knows how to build unlimited right.

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no tomatoes.. [hard a] tonight... i'll be eating four cheese tortellini with extra tomatoes. [full emphasis on the soft a] so its come to this? [doorbell chimes] thank you. [doorbell chimes] bravo. careful, hamill. daddy's not here to save you. oh i am my daddy. wait, what? what are you talking about?

he was warned but ignored the evidence. holding rallies indoors. turning a white house into the super spreader and contracting the virus himself. >> now tested positive. >> now he claims he's learned about covid. >> i get it. >> but he hasn't learned a thing. putting us and those sworn to protect him at risk. >> don't be afraid of it. >> meanwhile, america pays the price. 215,000 dead, no plan. and now another wave is coming. had enough? >> i'm joe biden and i approve this message. >> another new ad from the dnc. welcome back to "morning joe." tuesday, october 13th. >> i have to say, if he were a better politician, if he were -- >> yeah. >> -- more cynical, willie, he would have used this as a road to damascus conversion.

he's got his hard-core supporters. he could have used this as a road to conversion, i have seen the light, i understand, i did my best to protect you all but now i understand. i have to do even more and i really do understand this and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. he actually would win over some suburban voters, some seniors who have moved away from him. but time and time again, when confronted with the 70-30 issue he chooses the 30% and tells the 70% to go to hell. and you look at an issue as simple as wearing masks, where we do know a lot more, six, seven, eight months in. we understand you don't have to shut down an entire economy. if everybody is wearing masks. look at the example.

look at south korea. look at vietnam. look at countries in southeast asia where wearing masks has actually become socially acceptable over time. and their numbers are so much lower than ours in the west. but donald trump, he can never -- he can never grab the low-hanging fruit. he always has to chop the entire tree down and unfortunately when he chops it and chops it and chops it, that political tree it falls back and like crushes -- >> his campaign. >> his campaign, time and again. and he's done it again here. it's just like -- if i were supporting this guy, if i were a republican senator i'd be beyond myself which is now why many senators are distancing himself from him. >> the reading of the

electorate, what might win him enough votes to win wisconsin or michigan seemed to be gone. and the three of us have been saying for how long, eight months now. he likes to talk about being a war time president. he likes to compare himself to churchill. what if he had come out from the beginning and actually behaved like churchill and said this is a serious problem, but we're america. we have the best doctors and the best innovation in the world. we'll get our arm around this. it starts with wearing a mask for a while. we have to stay away from each other for a while and shut down for a while. we'll be through this in a count of months. your kids will be back to school next fall and he did the opposite as bob woodward's book showed. in fact, last night in sanford he did the opposite of what you're saying. he said i came through this and i'm stronger. i feel so powerful. so what he's saying is, anybody can survive this. he said out loud it's not something to be afraid of. in fact, i feel immune and more powerful right now. here's the president last night in florida.

>> and we've got to remember i said it at the beginning, the cure cannot be worse than the problem. the cure cannot be worse, but if you don't feel good about it, stay. if you want to get out get out. the nice part, i went through it, now they say i'm immune. i feel so powerful. i'll walk into the audience -- i'll kiss everyone in that audience. i'll kiss the guys and the beautiful women and everybody. i'll just give you a big, fat kiss. you know, there is something nice. i don't have to be locked up in the basement. i wouldn't allow it to happen anyway. when you're the president, you can't lock yourself in a basement and say i'm not going to bother with the world. you have to get out and it's risky. it's risky but you have to get out. but it does give you a good -- a good feeling when you can beat something and now they say you're immune. i don't know for how long.

some people say for months, some four months. every time i hear it gets shorter and shorter because they want it to be as bad as possible. >> there are so many people in this country, who follow president trump's example. 60 million people voted for donald trump and the example he's setting right now is terrible and potentially deadly for a lot of people. >> he talks doctors, he talks epidemiologists and he is saying they try to make it as bad as possible, no, donald. read the front page of any newspaper. "wall street journal," read "the wall street journal," they will tell you, in fact, i think it on my phone. >> you know what? if you don't read, actually talk to your scientists. >> i think it was "wall street journal" that had the breaking news that the nevada man was the first to be reinfected three

months later. i had a doctor -- a personal doctor tell me several months ago, you're not immune for life. donald, that's just -- that's just a new level of dumb. >> could be the 'roids talking. >> it could be the 'roids talking. going out and kissing all the men in the crowd, i think he said, and then the women. keep me off of those 'roids. but anyway, three months, my doctor told me -- he said it looks like from everything we're looking at he may have immunity for three months but the president said something else in there. it goes against -- yeah, everything that we tried to teach our children in america goes against the examples that preachers tell us from pulpits that generals tell us about how you effectively run a unit during war. marines always say the leaders are the last ones to get a drink of water. the leaders are the last ones to

get a bite to eat. the leaders are the last ones to get some sleep. jesus talked about servant leadership. talked about leaders having to wash the feet of those who worked for it -- for them. but here you have donald trump saying as president you have to take risks. here's the problem. donald trump's not taking a risk with his life. >> nope. >> you look at all the people in the crowds. and there's not one of them that would get the type of medical treatment that he got. if they got sick, if their oxygen level went low, they wouldn't be rushed out to a helicopter and flown to one of the best medical facilities in the world and have a presidential suite. well, doctors are giving them a

treatment that literally nobody else on the planet has ever gotten for this virus. for this plague, as donald trump calls it. no, they would be sitting alone in their home. they would nervously be trying to get a doctor on the line. they would be trying to figure out what do i do with my children, what do i do with my parents? what do i do with my job, am i going to lose my job? where do i send my kids? nobody will come to the hospital with me. how do i get to the hospital? will they even let me in? am i showing enough symptoms, am i showing enough conditions, but trump doesn't think about that because he never thinks about anybody but himself. so no, a president doesn't have to take risks with other people's lives for his own political gain.

>> and -- >> and if they do, and they are unworthy of your vote. they are unworthy of the presidency. they are unworthy of anybody's respect. >> and joe, a lot has changed in four years. that rally and i'll put it in quotes, super spreader event last night in sanford, florida, i don't know, how dare the campaign squish them together to get their shots. this is malpractice, causing people to get sick. they were at an airport, they could have been socially distanced. but the campaign chose to squish them together and all of the people in there who may have the virus are spreading it. that is so beyond incomprehensible in the days and the times we're living in with

216,000 people dead and people dying horrible deaths from this virus. >> yeah. let's bring in pulitzer prize winning author, political analyst, eugene robinson. with us is presidential historian jon meacham. jon, i talked earlier about the images. i saw last night, i looked at the people in the crowd and i was reminded of images from -- you know, black and white images that we have all grown up seeing of roaring crowds from troubling -- supporting troubling regimes and turbulent times and looking at the people in that film and going, okay, wait. what drew them there? how could they be there? what led to the breakdown in society so bad that they got

there? i saw last night in the midst of a pandemic that's killed 215,000 people i saw the governor of the state of florida high fiving people. rubbing his nose. spreading -- probably spreading the disease. i saw people packed. images that, again, are completely disconnected from anything that any one of their doctors would have told them. there are some people in the crowds wearing masks but very few. but the vast majority were maskless and here's the governor of the state of florida and the president of the united states who are supposed to be examples and the governor is doing that and the president of the united states is telling everyone he's immune for life and the scientists are saying that the immunity may only last three or

four months and immunity only lasts three or four months. how do we process this? where do we put this right now? donald trump's rallies, especially after -- how do -- i'll just ask, how do we process this as a country? >> well, it's a cult as opposed to a party at this point or a campaign. there is a disproportionate veneration for a singular figure, at the expense of reason and balance and a sense of loyalty to the ideas for which a campaign and a party in american life tends to stand and simply this connection to this leader. so that's one thing to think about is that you're fighting an irrational force. it's an elemental force.

you have to ask yourself what it is about american life that created the context in which 41 to 45% -- let's call it 46.1. that's what he carried in the popular vote in '16, so let's say he's probably kept that. so how did 46.1% of americans come to the point where they would suspend their reason and let their elemental appetites take over? and that's a deep and searching and essential question that trump's successor whether he has a successor in three weeks or three months or four years is going to have to confront in a very serious way. because it's about a broken faith, right? those folks don't believe expertise, they don't believe experience. they don't believe in the

rational world that helped create america in the first place. america for all of its flaws is an enlightenment era project. it was created by white men who excluded many from the social compact, but the people -- when they included themselves they were doing so because they believed that we could actually create the man -- that mankind could create a government that would take account of these passions and balance them. we're out of balance and i think it's about globalization. i think it's the fact that people who look like me are headed to about 46, 47% of the population before too long. people who look like me don't like that, don't like the idea of falling off the top of the pyramid. we have only been in this

country really since 1965 when you think about it. the voting rights act, civil rights act, the immigration act of '65 created the pollidy that we have. and we didn't have a system of apartheid in the country and george wallace got 14.5% of the note and 55% of the country said i don't like this very much. so these are all unfolding forces. the reaction to globalization and i think my view is that the best act of restoration -- i don't mean just take us back to the bushes, i do mean a restoration of giving reason a chance, giving science a chance when it comes to something as fundamental as public health begins with telling the stories of how it's worked before. we solved polio.

we built a powerful country because we redefined the role between the state and the individual and the middle of the 20th century. there are stories to tell. >> of course, there are and of course we should be doing better with it now but we're not. gene robinson, i wanted to show you some more of the culture that john's talking about there, giving voice by president trump. senator mike lee announced he was diagnosed with covid-19 and he took off his mask and senator lee did not respond if he had been tested recently. meanwhile, mark meadows refused to keep his mask on while speaking to reporters at the capitol. here he is outside the senate hearing room. >> tell you what, let me do this. let me pull this away. >> yeah, pull away. >> that way i can take this off to talk. i'm more than ten feet away. i'm not -- well, i'm not going to talk through the mask.

>> so gene, rather than wear a mask, mark meadows, the chief of staff walked away. they don't want to upset the boss and what the president said last night, while not wearing a mask, it's not unique to him. it's a message. rudy giuliani was in philadelphia, they're trying to scare up support in pennsylvania, of course, a state they need to win and he said the following to a group of trump supporters. quote, people don't die of this disease anymore. the message is that the president survived it, we've moved on, let's look to election day. >> well, that's simply not try, willie. people do die of this disease. people die, you know, 800, 900,000, 1,000 people a die in this country, they die of this disease. cases are up. hospitalizations are -- for coronavirus, covid-19 in this country up and are up rather

sharply. 35,000 people in the hospital right now in this country suffering from covid-19. i checked the figure a couple weeks ago it was 30,000. it's rising quite significantly. the number of cases is rising quite significantly. and in both those instances with mike lee who just had -- who was diagnosed i think 11 days ago or something like that, meaning it's doubtful whether he's cleared the virus and mark meadows who's been around the president so much and refused to wear a mask, both of those incidents happened in indoor spaces and we know that indoor spaces are particularly conducive to spreading the -- we

know all of this as jon meacham said, this is an abandonment of the reason and, you know, following a cult leader. and i guess, i mean, mike lee believes it's in their political interest and mark meadows too and perhaps they have drunk the kool-aid. the question going forward, is this -- is donald trump a unique figure? the wrong figure at the wrong time from my perspective, to exploit what was happening in the country and to become the head of this cult. if he's defeated, does the cult persist, does the cult dissipate, does it lose steam, what happens? i hope we get to see that question answered after the election and after the inauguration because i hope it turns out a certain way.

but that'll be a big question, you know? is it trumpism without trump? >> there's no doubt that we have gotten to this point where americans are skeptical of leadership and skeptical of experts and skeptical of science and skeptical of math because of one failure after another in the 21th century and it started on september 11th. we weren't prepared for september 11th. there's actually a dotcom crash before that and then you had enron and then 2002, the iraq war began, weapons of mass destruction and you had hurricane katrina and you had a meltdown in iraq. you had wall street melting down and causing the great recession. you can keep moving forward. in 2009, 2010, we were doing better in iraq, but still, the economy was stumbling.

we left iraq. created a void, caused the rise of isis. you had distrust -- you can go throughout the 21st century and you can find one after another after another instance of where americans -- americans had had reason to be concerned that maybe the best and the brightest haven't been in washington, d.c. over the past 20 years. but the thinking that goes in to what we have been seeing, willie, is -- just does it naturally lead to you ignoring the doctors? does it naturally lead to ignoring science? does it naturally lead to ignoring what is best for you and your families? and there's this concept of, you know, we're supposed to be shocked. i mean, that's what donald trump wants to do. he loves owning the libs. meadows loves owning the libs, and they don't understand

they're owning conservatives as well, like me. they're owning doctors like the family physicians that people go to in the state of florida and arizona, that seniors go to. well, look who they're owning in wisconsin, look at the wisconsin poll. obviously, by a margin of ten points in the state of wiscon n wisconsin, they're also owning 51% of the population who don't think it's cool. do not think it's cool to do the things that donald trump does. 51%. he's losing by ten points with three weeks to go in wisconsin and yes, yes, yes, hillary clinton was ahead as well. but you talk to the trump campaign through and they will tell you wisconsin is out of reach. that's what they say privately. they have been saying for some time that michigan, another poll that we have from yesterday, and an a-rated poll that michigan is also out of points, it's eight points. i'll not quoting the libs at the

new york times or at the nation. i'm quoting people inside donald trump's campaign who understand that michigan is gone. so in owning the libs, this is the political equivalent of, you know, donald trump's aide going and buying sushi and somebody saying something bad about him after he's paid him $100 and throwing their sushi away before he eats it. >> who would do that? >> to make a point. i mean, owning the libs approach to governing might get you 40%, 42%, 43% of the vote and it does not win you elections and we have three years to prove it. >> yeah. there's a new spate of morning consult polls just going out while you're talking right now, joe. you know, it's ugly again. pennsylvania biden is up eight. ugly for donald trump i should

say. minnesota, biden's up. ohio and georgia and arizona are through within play. they're tossup states. he's getting crushed by 14 points in colorado which has up of the down-ballot effects and cory gardner is now down ten points. thom tillis is trailing. >> can i ask you some specifics? what was the number -- pennsylvania what plus 8. what was the number in minnesota? >> minnesota was plus 6 for biden. these are the morning consult polls. michigan plus 7 for biden. ohio within the margin of error, president trump up three points but there's within the margin of error. georgia, a dead heat. florida has biden up 5. colorado, biden up 14 points and again cory gardner trailing by ten points in his race in colorado in this poll. >> well, in the north carolina

poll, what's the cunningham/tillis number? >> i think it was six points. let me check it out real quick, but the spread with biden in the state of north carolina is four. that's within the margin of error. but tillis is trailing here. >> that's a tough race. >> six points and tillis was running against a game who is doing everything he can to lose and tillis still can't catch him. i mean, look at the numbers, gene robinson, and again, it's pretty consistent now. pennsylvania plus 8. minnesota plus 6. ohio minus 3. georgia is even. georgia, we saw the lines in georgia. everyone talks about the hidden vote against -- for donald trump. i'm telling you, i could be wrong because, you know, i'm wrong so much. >> here we go. >> but there is an intensity. i look at those lines and again -- again, it's only

anecdotal. but i remember looking at lines when i was driving around in '94 and i looked at the people going in and i said, i'm doing okay. i'm looking at if people lined up, there was a determination we have never seen it before. i remember seeing it in northern virginia, women standing in the rain to vote in the gubernatorial contest and those women, gene, i would love to be able to speak like a pulitzer prize winner like you and meacham, but those women in 2007, the only way i can describe it is they looked pissed off and there are a lot of americans that i'm looking at lines and you know what? i won't use that word again this morning because of course we're a family show and we have been since 1947, willie, since we came back from the war. but there's a determination and you get the sense that these women have been waiting for four

years for this moment because they realize it's a most important vote they'll make in their entire life and were i were a trump supporter i'd be very nervous right now. >> i would too. i will tell you why the lines matter, like in georgia, people are waiting 11 hours to vote. why did this do this? it's the first day of early in-person voting in georgia and they wanted to vote on the first day, the first opportunity they had to vote. they wanted to stand in line and so they got -- they got to the polling places and they saw that the lines were hours and hours long. they could have decided i'll wait until tomorrow. i'll wait until later in the week, i'll wait until the lines thin out a bit. but they stayed there all day. i call that intensity too. and i would be incredibly nervous about that if i were the

trump campaign. we saw the same thing in fairfax county, virginia, not far from where i am now. on first day of early in person voting. people formed long, long lines and stayed in the lines all day in order to vote. it's -- so that's something, and it also highlights something different about all of the polls this year, that it's later than you think. it's later than anybody thinks because the election is already happening. and about 10 million people have already voted in -- by some estimates, you know, a quarter of the florida voter or close to the 20% or something has already been cast. in other states up to a quarter of the vote. i mean, we're getting in to that range already. three weeks before the election.

so in terms of the president trying to move poll numbers and change the dynamics of this election, the election is happening already. and that's the other thing that would deeply worry me if i see all of the democrats voting and i know that, you know, i'm in the middle of the election day essentially. >> so jon meacham, the donald trump campaign has cut ad spending in places like wisconsin and minnesota and michigan. they say they'll be back in michigan and they're putting some resources into places like georgia. they're sending surrogates to georgia. as a guy who has studied southern politics for most of his life, what do you think when i say to you the state of georgia may be a tossup this year? >> well, the great question in georgia, can the atlanta loop, which is more blue than red, dominate or make up for the rest

of the state? it's a big state, i grew up about two miles from the georgia line. north georgia is doug collins' district. i remember covering pat buchanan in the 1992 primaries there and they loved him. and remember, if you're looking for -- you know, there's a line between george wallace and pat buchanan to trump. so there is intensity there too. but georgia is a great question, can you turn a red state purple? my state interestingly, tennessee, is in no danger of that. i asked a former very senior elected official -- state official about this and one of the things that's happening in the south is the states that are doing well with jobs, pre covid companies moving in, you know, you'd think -- and georgia is a

great example because atlanta was such a magnet for jobs particularly after world war ii it would bring folks to the south more left of center but it hasn't happened in tennessee as much. i asked this man why and he said he thought that instead of center left people coming and changing the state, a lot of people in other states who were possibly closeted fox news people would come and then they could basically be who they wanted to be. and so that's an interesting detail and also yet another reason i think to be wary of all of these numbers. i totally agree with gene, the election is happening. but there is world enough and time to look at margins for democrats. i think the work and this is not -- this sounds partisan, but

it's not, but the work has to be making sure folks stay in the lines and continue to vote. john lewis went across the pettus bridge to make sure we have the right to exercise that vote. if these polls are right, given the structural partisanship of the country, that's a big number. right? 51 is the old 58, probably. one other measurement to watch is i was looking for some kind of measure of bipartisanship which would be true nationally, and the best thing i came across was self-identified republicans or democrats who told exit pollsters in the past that they voted for the other guy. and so here's interesting numbers. 40% of republicans voted for johnson in '64. 40% of democrats voted for nixon in '72.

then the numbers start to go down. that's because the democrats became republicans, right? 9% of democrats voted for george w. bush in 2000 and 13% of republicans voted for obama in 2008. and then of course it was de minimus in 2016. it will be really interesting to see if that number can return to the 10% or so average because if, in fact, you are a republican and you're willing to tell an exit pollster you voted the other way, that's probably a data point you can trust. >> jon meacham, thank you very much. 17 u.s. states set records for new coronavirus infections on monday. that's 34% of all u.s. states. this is why all of the president was dancing only stage has night. >> like yeltsin.

>> literally unaware. in western montana, hospitals are nearing capacity. in north dakota, cases are double the number of hospital beds available. in south dakota, covid-19 cases now equal the state's third largest city. in wisconsin, an all-time high was reached in hospitalizations. in wyoming, cases up by triple digits. denver's seven-day average are as high now as they were at the height of the pandemic. in idaho, nearly one in four in that state screened for covid this week tested positive. in illinois, many illinois coronavirus outbreaks have been undisclosed. we don't know about them. in indiana, the number of patients in hospitals grew over the weekend to the highest level in nearly five months. in kansas, the state recorded

another record spike in covid-19 cases. in kentucky, the state reported its highest number of cases on a monday since the pandemic began. in minnesota, a second peak of the pandemic is hitting a wider swath of the state than in the spring. in nebraska, coronavirus cases are now higher than they have ever been. in new mexico, the state reached the highest seven-day average of new covid-19 cases. in ohio, the state hit a grim milestone surpassing 5,000 deaths from the virus. the president dances on stage. >> you know, we have gotten so numb. we'll go through the other states but just look at that number in ohio. 5,000 deaths. we have gotten so numbed, donald trump tried to numb us from all those who died from the pandemic. it's easy to forget that that number, more people have died in ohio of the coronavirus which donald trump called a hoax than

died on 9/11. >> they died agonizing -- >> people died alone in ohio of the coronavirus, than died in all of our years fighting the afghanistan war. >> in oklahoma the number of confirmed cases topped 100,000. and in west virginia, schools will go to all remote instruction and no extracurricular activities can take place for children in west virginia. so everyone's cooped up at home again. meanwhile in tennessee the mayor of a small town died from the virus yesterday. manchester mayor lonnie norman was hospitalized earlier this month before dying after a valiant fight against covid-19. the city said in a facebook post he was 79 years old. working as a technician supervisor for 40 years, norman first entered public office back

in 1984 and became the first black mayor elected in manchester in 1991. norman was just re-elected in august to serve a third term for the city of 10,000 located in coffey county. it's known for hosting the bonnaroo music festival. it was initially postponed this year before ultimately being canceled. all together, due to the pandemic. we'll be right back. due to the pandemic we'll be right back. ing hotels. and when you get a big deal... ...you feel like a big deal. ♪ priceline. every trip is a big deal.

bradley, get a freshly made subway footlong instead. try my favorite, turkey. order on the app. anything for my fans. try the new subway buffalo chicken or bbq chicken.

simply put, i believe we should not be moving forward on this nomination. not until the election has ended and the next president has taken office. >> yes, judge, i think this hearing is a sham. i think it shows real messed up priorities from the republican party. >> the big secret influences

behind this unseemly rush see this nominee as a judicial torpedo they are failing at the aca. >> democrats on the senate judiciary committee staying on message in yesterday's hearing for supreme court nominee amy coney barrett. focusing much of their opening statements on the future of the affordable care act. let's bring in democratic member of the judiciary committee, senator richard blumenthal. and host of "way too early," kasie hunt joining us from capitol hill as well. great to have you. senator blumenthal, how did you think yesterday went? how did you feel about the nomination of judge amy coney barrett after listening to her opening statements and answering questions. i know you're concerned about the affordable care act, but as

a nominee, how does she fare? >> i'm deeply concerned about the affordable care act and what we did yesterday i feel very good about it. we brought real people into the room showing the real harm that this nominee will do to people like connor, a 10-year-old boy in richfield, kentucky, who suffers from an incurable disease and is alive today because he has health care access, afforded by the aca. so people with pre-existing conditions who would lose their coverage are in that room, but also on the issues of reproductive freedoms and gun violence prevention, this nominee has extreme and radical views. she described her views on the second amendment as radical and her reproductive freedom stances will be very much at issue today. so i think so far, she's talked about her personal qualities,

her background, but she has answered none of the tough questions that we're going to have for her and we're going to be taking our case to the american people. >> kasie hunt, i know you have been covering this. tell us about the dynamics inside the room. there was some republican senators, mike lee, who had been diagnosed as covid positive not wearing a mask. what was it like in there? tell us some of your reporting and then you can take it to the senator, kasie. >> sure. mika, we learned today, this morning actually, that senator thom tillis is also going to be here in person today. he appeared virtually yesterday. he is bringing -- well, mike lee brought yesterday the equivalent of a doctor's note from the capitol physician say it's fine, i'm not contagious, i'm cleared to appear. it wasn't clear whether he had tested negative for coronavirus. i think you guys showed mark meadows as well refusing to talk to reporters without a mask so

that's definitely been some of the drama that's played out here. we'll see if tillis decides to keep his mask on during questioning. lee would not respond to questions from reporters when they tried to ask him why he didn't keep his mask on during the questioning yesterday. senator, i want to ask you about the politics of this, because clearly, you are very unified. we are 21 days away from -- i suppose it's the best -- it's best described as the last day of voting, we obviously know people across the country voting. what do you think is the dynamic at play in terms of the money that's coming in for democratic senate candidates? i mean, the numbers have been astonishing. i know there's some people who are counting on this to help them, like lindsey graham, to help them in the final days of the race but there's a sense among democrats this may be driving that financial rush. at the end of the day, do you think having this hearing right

before people make decision about who to vote for is helping democrats at the polls or does it give republicans an advantage? >> plainly, as you know, kasie, the republicans have the votes on this committee. they can prevail by raw power, but they don't have the american people on their side. they don't have history on their side. they're losing because the american people want the next president and the next senate to choose the next justice and the american people want the affordable care act. they want reproductive freedoms and sensible common sense gun violence prevention, but there's an agenda here and it is a pretty ugly one. the president of the united states decided in the days after justice ginsburg's death he wanted to put another justice on the supreme court so she could decide this election. he made it absolutely clear.

he articulated it and this justice must commit to recuse herself. otherwise, she's going to destroy the legitimacy of the court and her own credibility. that's why i demanded she that she in fact take herself out any decision if the election reaches the court like bush v gore. i think the american people want the american people to decide this and not the supreme court. this whole proceeding is really a sham when you think about it. americans are voting right now. and the president is trying to in effect have the supreme court decide the election, not the american voters. >> senator blumenthal, willie geist. good to have you with this us this morning. we heard senator klobuchar say it's a sham. but the president has the right,

in fact, the constitutional duty to fill the seat since he's the president? >> he has no constitutional right to fill it. abraham lincoln decided he would wait and in fact he was behind in the polls and was losing the election. maybe not behind in the polls but he thought he'd lose the elect and he waited. that's the right thing to do and in this case, the right thing to do is actually the better politics because it's what the majority of the american people want. only the fact that donald trump thinks he can have another bush v gore is the reason he's proceeding so hastily and that he can shift the legal center of the court vastly rightward because this justice is radical in her views. that's the word she described -- she used to describe her own views on the second amendment and i think there is a

fundamental issue here. the republicans have the raw power, but it isn't required by the constitution that the seat be filled and in fact it erodes and destroys the legitimacy of the court. i have argued in the supreme court. i was a supreme court law clerk, i revere it as an institution. the legitimacy is the source of the value and it does lasting damage. >> senator richard blumenthal, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. joining us now, someone who usually join us in the legal analyst role and a friend but now is venturing for a new title. mayor of new york city, maya wiley join us. she recently declared her candidacy for mayor of new york. first, congratulations on this big decision. it's exciting. it's also a very daunting time

to be considering a run to be mayor of new york city especially given black lives matter, the police, the tension and of course the presidential election causing concerns from the top down. why are you >> well, first of all, mika, i couldn't imagine a better person to be discussing this with since you have been telling us all to know our values. and i think that's a big part of it, right. our city, our cities across the country, but new york city has been a city in crisis where we have lost almost 24,000 of our neighbors, our friends, our family members to covid. we have lost those lives at the same time that we were already in an affordability crisis even before covid started, and with the president that has simply attacked us on a regular basis because he doesn't like the views of our voters. well, that's the time when we

need leadership that steps up and says, no more business as usual. no more politics of division. it is time we come together, we do what new yorkers always do in crisis. we get busy and we get it done. but we're not going to do it with a traditional politics. we need to have leadership that understands what the daily lives of new yorkers are. and in a context where we have so fortunately started to discuss honestly what systemic racism has meant in the country, what gender discrimination has meant in this country, what it means to start to include people who are transgender, for example, that we have to be better, that we can be better. and we need leadership that calls us to be better. and that's why i am all in. >> on the issue of systemic racism, can you give me a sense of how you would handle the new

york city police department, what changes you might make, what you might do to bridge, you know, the issues of addressing the issues of systemic racism with also making sure our cops have what they need and the guidance they need to keep the streets safe? >> absolutely important to balance those things. and we start by putting the public back in public safety. we need strong public oversight that says what the priorities and policies of policing are. mika, you and i have had this conversation about policing. police officers often say, you know, we don't know what you are going to want us to do one day to the next. one day we do something, it's fine, and then the next day you tell us it's wrong. let's get the rules of the road very clear. camden, new jersey, has an

18-page excessive force policy and they have significantly reduced police violence as a result. new york city, we only have a couple of pages. let's get clear on the rules of the road so everyone knows and understands. and let's transform policing into something that solves problems because we know in studies and pilots around the country we've never take this to scale, but when you engage police in partnering with other parts of government, partnering with communities, identifying the things they are getting called to do that are not policing functions, we can right-size policing and ensure that we are bringing an all-hands-on deck efforts to solve problems of poverty rather than criminalizing poverty. >> maya, it's willie. congratulations on jumping into the race. a year from now we will be looking at election day in new york city. you are jumping in at quite a time, as mika alluded to, with

everything beigoing on in the c, the perception that the city has fallen in the middle of this pandemic. we see a lot of empty storefronts, housing problems. there is a lot on your plate as you look at this job. so what made you want to jump into this race at a time when it's going to be a very, very heavy lift if you are elected? >> well, first and foremost, let me just say, because i believe deeply in new york city. this is a crisis of historic proportion and it's going to take historic leadership to call us together. that's what new yorkers have done time and time again. we did it after 9/11. we did it after hurricane sandy. now the call is to do it in a way that ensures that we're stronger, that we are fairer, that we are more just, and cwe can do that. here's the point. we are in a crisis, but we do have assets. and those assets are our people. we have incredible know-how.

we have communities that have been doing so much with so little for so long. we have an opportunity in this crisis to transform so that people can actually afford the rent. and it's not all bad news. we already in "the new york times" had a report that because the price of housing has come down, there are people coming back. one couple that moved to miami that's now come back because they could get a great apartment in their same building for less money. there are people coming to the city now, moving to the city. and if we start to recognize that because we are a phenomenal city, we are a city that has had it all, and we have to bring that back, but we have to bring that back in a way that ensures we can all afford to live here with dignity. >> maya wiley, candidate for mayor of new york city, thank you very much for being on this morning. good luck. and we'll see you soon. still ahead, the president

hosted another large campaign rally last night, a scatter super-spreader, and another scheduled for tonight. dr. fauci has warned that this is asking for trouble. "morning joe" is back in a moment. when joe biden wants an update on the virus,

he calls on the nation's top health experts. working together, for all americans, is what joe does. when writing his healthcare plan, joe biden worked with both doctors and patients to make healthcare affordable by lowering premiums, reducing drug costs, and protecting people with pre-existing conditions. joe listened to both small business owners and workers to create his economic plan that cuts taxes for middle class families, creates 18 million new jobs in his first term, and raises wages by as much as $15,000 a year. joe biden's plans will help working families immediately

by making the super rich finally pay their fair share. for joe, it's never been about ego. it's always been about the work he can do for working families. it's what he's always done. joe biden brings everyone to the table and gets it done. i'm joe biden, and i approve this message.

put aside all of the issues of what political implications a rally has and just put that aside and look at it purely in the context of public health. we know that that is asking for trouble when you do that. we have seen that when you have situations of congregate settings where there are a lot of people without masks. the data speak for themselves. >> and with that warning from dr. anthony fauci, president trump's florida rally yesterday, everybody squished tonight. governor ron de san tis

high-fiving people and wiping his nose. i mean, it was an utter medical mess. >> it could be, of course, for a state that many fear is going to become a hot spot. anthony fauci, well, the numbers, we don't need doctors to tell us what numbers show us, and that is that we are getting new cases and a real fear among medical health care experts that we're exploding into another terrible time. you know, really i was watching last night as ron desantis, the governor of this state, who is supposed to be setting an example, which of course he hasn't from the very beginning, was going through the crowd high-fiving, you know, wiping his nose, high-fiving people, everything. and i thought back to images of these troubling regimes that came in turbulent times, you

know. you see the old black-and-white films of these crowds, of these mobs, and you wonder what planet did they come from? and then you realize, as you're watching it in real time, that they're from my home state. >> yeah. >> and i really -- i am quite confident, not 50 years from now or 20 years from now, but five years from now people are going to look back on that scene and go, what the hell were they thinking? they have grandparents. they have older mom and dads. they have kids with underlying conditions. what were they thinking? what was the governor thinking? what was the president of the united states thinking? what point was mark meadows

trying to prove yesterday? what point was mike lee trying to prove yesterday? what point was lindsey graham trying to prove yesterday? we can pity them. i feel sorry for them. >> worried for their families and friends and colleagues. >> i fear for their friends. i fear for their grandparents. but it is, well, it's just -- it's inexplicable. >> it starts at the top. president trump said from the beginning that he thinks masks are weird, he doesn't like to wear them. he hasn't shown any willingness to enforce social distancing despite what everyone around him has said. if you look at that scene last night, when you put the pictures up and look at it, that could have been a scene from a year ago when we didn't know anything about covid-19 before it existed. it could have been a scene from eight months ago when we didn't know how bad it could be. and it could have been a scene from before president trump, yes president trump himself, contracted coronavirus.

remember there was some talk that perhaps when he was diagnosed with coronavirus there might be some humility from him, that going through this experience would show him how serious coronavirus was. well, my god, there he is standing on stage 11 days after his diagnosis of coronavirus. no mask. no social distancing. about 7,000 people in florida gathered, standing and cheering, following his lead. and here's what the president said up on that stage last night about how close he actually wanted to get to his supporters. >> we got to remember i said it right at the beginning. the cure cannot be worse than the problem itself can. the cure cannot be worse, but if you don't feel good about it, if you want to stay, stay. relax, stay. if you want to get out there, get out. one thing with me, the nice part, i went through it. now they say i'm immune. i feel so powerful. i walk into that audience. i'll walk in there. i'll kiss everyone in that

audience. i'll kiss the guys and the beautiful women and everybody. i'll just give you a big fat kiss. no, but there is something nice. i don't have to be locked up in my basement and i wouldn't allow that to happen anyway. when you are the president, you can't lock yourself in a basement and say i'm not going to bother with the word. you have to get out. and it's risky. it's risky, but you've got to get out. but it does give you a good feeling when you can beat something and now they say you're immune. i don't know for how long. some people say for life, some say four months. everybody time i hear them it gets shorter and shorter because they want it to be as bad as possible. >> he wants to go in the crowd and give big fat kisses. here's what dr. fauci, one of the world's leading experts on fin infectious diseases was telling shep smith on cnbc. >> if we don't change and make

masks mostly universal in america, what are we facing this fall and winter? >> i think we are facing a whole lot of trouble. we would like to see the percent positivity coming down and, unfortunately, if you look at the states of the country, the midwest, the northwest, the states that you mentioned, including iowa, instead of seeing it go in the other direction, down, we are seeing an increase in test positivity. >> so, joe, a tale of two pandemics there. president trump out with a big crowd, no mask saying, i want to come out and kiss you, i want to hug you, get out, it's risky, but you've got to do it, and a more sober and informed analysis from dr. fauci. >> well, and, of course, donald trump in the rally mocking scientists. >> the example. >> mocking doctors, saying, oh, some say it's you're immune for life. nobody says that. donald, why are you lying to

your people? nobody says that. nobody said you're immune for life. nobody said you're immune for years. you know, i was told by a doctor a couple of months ago, immunity will last probably three months. that was my personal doctor. that wasn't somebody at johns hopkins. that wasn't somebody from the best institutions in the world. said immunity is three, four months. of course, the immunity is three or four months. and so you have donald trump saying that science is trying to make this sound as bad as possible. again, the example is just absolutely horrific. we are going into the fall. the numbers are going up. and, again, 216,000 people are dead. 216,000 americans are dead. dead from a virus that donald trump said in january was one

person coming in from china and soon that would be going away. >> like a miracle it would go away. >> he said that at the same time he was telling bob woodward on tape that he knew how bad this was, that it was a killer, that it was five times as bad as the flu. that young people could get it as much as old people could get it. it was bad for them, too. donald trump also said a month after that, after he had been warned by his own trade representative, that 500,000 american souls could die after he was warned from his national security advisor this was going to be the worst crisis of his presidency. a month later he was telling a crowd in michigan that 15 people had it and soon that would be down to zero. then he said that it was going to go away magically in the spring. then he said they were going to reopen by april. then he said -- i mean, one lie after another. donald trump denying that there was anything serious about this. anything. and now 216,000 american are

dead. are dead. their families, 216,000 families have mourned one personal catastrophe after another, and donald trump is going out there making a joke about it. let's bring in co-founder and ceo of axios. jim, i want to go to you. we are going to get to -- well, let's just show it now. we are going to do this free form. let's show paul from wisconsin and we'll team it up with a last story, battleground state, siena college in wisconsin. your old home state. joe biden leads by ten points over the president. 51% to 41%. this is one of the better polls out there. time's running out. biden up three since september. trump's down two. and you have the president of the united states talking this way in florida while field hospitals are being set up in

wisconsin. i am curious your take on exactly what this is going to do to voters in the badger state, especially seniors. >> well, i think that's a great point on seniors. i think there is a disconnect. there is a big chunk of the population that if you are younger, you probably can got away with going to a rally like that and bad things might not happen. where he is getting hurt and the reason the numbers are plummeting among older voters is they are staying at home. they are talking to their doctors and none of them are saying go out, rip off your mask and go to a rally. they are saying don't go to a church, don't go to a restaurant. that is so incongruent for them to be changing their lives even if they really like donald trump and like republicans and then to see him saying things that their doctors who they trust more than they trust politicians are saying don't think about for a second. and that is the reason that trump is in florida, right. you shouldn't be in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania thinking those are closer and instead he has to defend florida which once

upon a time looked good for him and now looks almost as bad as the state of wisconsin. he has a problem. he has a map getting bigger. he has a credibility problem around the coronavirus and he doesn't really have a big bag of tricks because he doesn't have enough money to overcome the biden money machine and he is counting on loyalty. he is counting on republicans who were with him before to somehow join forces with a bunch of republicans who he thinks he hiding in the woodwork. there might be. there might be a lot of republicans in the swing states not talking to pollsters. when you are down ten, it's not ten. so really fully understand the strategy that he has had over the last month, as you guys have talked about, other than like he has adoring fans. we did a study where we looked at every single thing every republican has said about him over four years and almost every republican has never said anything negative. not a single word.

not at home. not on social media. not in any public forum. those people love him and listen to the president. they care nor about tmore about president than a member of the republican priority. he could be less than two weeks out from having the coronavirus, people are standing, cheering without a mask. why? because he is the president and they hang on every word he says. that's why dr. fauci gets out on the tv every single day to sound the alarm. again it's incongruent with the science. so we will know in a couple of weeks if there are all these people who think this is the right way to go. even people inside don't. >> still ahead on "morning joe," early voting gets underway in georgia with some people waiting up to ten hours to vote. we will take a look at what election officials are calling record high turnout. you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. - [announcer] welcome to intelligent indoor grilling

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some other news this morning. johnson johnson announced monday it paused clinical trials for a covid-19 vaccine candidate after a participant developed an unexplained illness in the final stage of the trials. the company says the pause is in compliance with regulatory standards and that the participants' condition is being reviewed and evaluated. it reads adverse events, even those that are serious, are an expected part of any clinical study, especially large studies. it says we are also learning more about this participant's illness and it's important to have all the facts before we share additional information. we will speak in a moment with dr. gupta about this development. early voting kicked off in georgia yesterday with high turn yuts and long lines. the georgia secretary of state reported that more than 126,000

people voted in person yesterday. a 41% increase over first day of voting in 2016. voters waited in hours-long lines at polling locations. some there for nearly ten hours. the record-breaking turnout may have been helped yesterday being a holiday, columbus day, though the state did see similar long waits in the state's primary in june when a record number of voters also turned out. officials said there were no issues with voting machines. dave wasserman of the cook political report notes that gwinnett county in georgia has nine advanced voting centers open 9 to 12 hours a day, including weekends between now and the end of the month. we will keep an eye on georgia to see if they get a better handle on the wait time to vote. >> and, willie, the point that i think dave was making was, hey, yeah, the lines were really long, but this isn't like texas

where the governor, governor abbott, is deliberately trying to make voting as hard as possible. here in gwinnett county there were, again, there were nine different locations. they are open a good bit of time, and but dave's point was, hey, this was a historic crush yesterday. let's see how it plays out over the next week or so. >> massive numbers out there. some people, as mika said, waiting in line for 12 hours because it was the first day and i think that's a reflection of enthusiasm and there is a reason the trump campaign is playing defense in the state of georgia in places like iowa, having to protect his flank and not playing in places like michigan and wisconsin the way he'd like it be. >> coming up on "morning joe," senator john mccain of arizona, very good to have you on the show this morning, sir. >> thank you. i am freezing my ass off. >> i am one of the few that gets up early enough. >> i have to get my blood going

in the morning. >> i confess, i watch you all the time. >> oh, my gosh! >> could i say congratulations to you and joe. i am really pleased joe found someone that loves him as much as he does. >> the ways we like to remember senator john mccain on "morning joe." up next, his long-time friend and aide mark salter joins us with his new book about the late senator. "morning joe" is coming right back. with two new haunted houses, the screams are just getting started. wear your favorite costumes and the fun never ends. come get your halloween on, happening now at universal orlando resort.

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two, just about right now governor desantis is going to use that same hand to wipe his face. dr. gupta, help me out here. we are in a pandemic. did anybody tell anybody in sanford, florida, or the governor? >> you know, good morning, mika. it's interesting you talk about hand hygiene there because there was a study published last week showing that in the absence of hand sanitizing covid-19, if you are in an exposed environment, lasts on the hand for nine hours versus the common flu, an hour and a half. he wasn't hand sanitizing during that walk you just showed us, obviously. so leaders, and i use that term loosely, like governor desantis that we have to put up with, have unfortunately been modeling bad behavior and have been passing laws, actually banning things like mask mandates, the mayor of miami had passed a few months ago. i mean, he is actively working against the one intervention

that i know all of you were talking about a few minutes ago, that we know can save lives in the absence of the vaccine. so his interests have never been for the welfare of floridians. >> let me ask you to comb through dr. sean conley's brief memo yesterday that went out before president trump went to florida to justify his doing that event last night. he said that the president tested negative on consecutive days and said he is not infectious. can you kind of walk us through what you saw in that memo and how much credence we should lend it? >> good morning, willie. i am glad you asked that because because this is about expectation setting for the american people and what they can and cannot -- what should they expect if they come down with covid-19? that letter by dr. conley is the first of its kind nationwide. when you're talking about the care of an individual with severe covid-19 pneumonia, which is what the president had, in no

circumstance would you ever clear an individual like that using what we know -- what we call a rapid antigen test, the test that they utilized, he referred to it in his letter. that is a quick and cheap test that is meant for broad screening of huge populations. that's the intention of that test. it is not -- the fact that it's quick and cheap means you sacrifice on quality. willie, these are types -- these tests historically have false/negative rates anywhere from 30 to 50%. as we learn more, and i know the company will say, well, our initial results are great. as we learn more about these tests in this category, we know that they underperform. why they should choose a historically poor performing test to clear the president, the pcr test, the best test, is very suspicious. if he got the right test, he would be positive.

you can make no comment on infectiousness with this type of test. it's smoke and mirrors and it's bad for expectation setting of course. example setting for the american people. as we talked about, he should be in quarantine for 20 days and he should not be looking to test his way out of it. >> so you don't know specifically, you are not treating him. given as you said, as you look at president trump on that stage working the crowd last night, is it possible or likely that he is shedding virus up on that stage? >> it's absolutely likely. and the fact that they are not leveling with us and giving us the right information on the right type of test. they know what the right type of test is. the antigen test is not the right type of test. absolutely. he should be adhering to guidelines and they are trying to concoct a narrative to justify why he is out there and he it's wrong. >> he said on stage, they say i'm immune, i feel so powerful. what did you make of that statement? >> it's nonsensical.

there is no scientific basis for that that he has immunity to reinfection. first, we don't know what real immunity to covid looks like. number two, you don't develop true immunity to the infection ten days out that's going to protect you three months out from a potential second infection. we know ari reinfection is possible. >> dr. gaup that, thanks, we appreciate it. coming up, house majority leader hoyer joins the conversation. we will talk about the latest impasse between democrats and the white house when it comes to coronavirus stimulus talks. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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no workers' comp. no unemployment benefits. vote no on the deceptive uber, lyft, doordash prop 22. one ride california doesn't want to take. . roberta mccain, the mother of late senator john mccain, died yesterday at her home in washington at the age of 108.

roberta mccain was an oil heiress from oklahoma who spent her life at the center of military and political power as the wife and daughter-in-law of four-star admirals john mccain jr. and sr. "the washington post" noted mrs. mccain was an outgoing hostess, known to make breakfast for politicians key to her husband's success. she raced three children, including senator john mccain, whose funeral she attended two years ago. long-time chief of staff to the late senator mccain, mark salter, the author of the new book the luckiest man, life with john mccain. kasie hunt is back with us as well from capitol hill. >> mark give us your thoughts about mrs. mccain and her passing. >> she was an extraordinary

lady. one of the most lively exist, most vivacious, most intriguing, most energetic people i have met. she wasbass was a lot of fun to around. she could put her son in his place. she used to have this -- she thought he was drawing a little bit too much attention to himself or on tv too much or something, she had a line something like, fool's names and fool's faces are often seen in public places. she would chastise him for his language, call him up and give him grief if she heard him swear somewhere. she was just a wonderful person. >> incredible. hey, tell me about your book "the luckiest man" and why john mccain believed he was the luckiest man alive. >> well, you know, he believed that probably surviving his well-known brushes with death, multiple plane crashes, the fire

on the uss forrestal that killed 131 of his comrades, 5 1/2 years in captivity. he also believed he was lucky because he survived or overcame what he knew were his own flaws and failings, his tempers, rebelliousness. he used to have this line. even in the last year of his life he would say, fifth from the bottom of my class in the naval academy and the republican nominee for president, unbelievable. and what he thought was luck though, i think, was really the -- it was the fact that he lived by a code, that he believed that you can redeem your flaws and failures by sacrificing for others, and he did that again and again in his life. >> you know, mark, he always talked about his failures. didn't run away from them, and he understood that. it's interesting though, you talk about those personal

failures that he had, and put next to that though the code that he lived by. i bet you there is not a person in pensacola, florida, that didn't know john mccain. that didn't tell me how he stumbled in their patio, slept on their porch, woke up the next morning, stumbled off when he was in flight school. like you said, was not exactly a great candidate in annapolis. and yet he had to make, i think, the choice of his life, and that was did he do what so pane other people wou -- so many other people would have done and gone home from vietnam when he was being tortured, beaten so badly, he wouldn't be able to raise his hands above his head for the rest of his life. he stayed there with his band of brothers. it was the code. despite any personal fail ijs,

the code carried him through that moment. could you talk about that code and the contrast between this happy go lucky guy who, when called upon to show people what leadership really was, he showed them in the most dramatic way possible. >> yeah. well, you know, the code he lived by was sort of an amal gam of the example his father and grandfather set. there had been a mccain in the military in every generation going back to the revolution. it was a colorful, rich demanding legacy, which he, you know, felt the burden of sometimes. and i think resisted it, but knew he would be called to uphold it at some point. it was a code he learned from episcopal high school where he went to high school and from the naval academy. they both had honor codes. both -- and while he was in trouble often at those schools, he never -- he took great pride in saying i never violated the honor code.

in fact, he revered it, would talk about it at length. it was sort of the code of the officer and the gentleman. in prison there was a prisoner code of conduct. part of that code was, you know, you return home in order of your capture. so if he had gone home in july of 1968, the vietnamese offered him relief. his father had been made commander and chief of all u.s. forces in the pacific. it was obvious to him they were trying to demoralize the other prisoners by offering him amnesty, to say the admiral's son can go home but you are stuck here for the duration. so he refused. and he was very sick at the time. he had broken both arms and one leg. he had disentear. he was down to 100 pounds. and when he refused multiple times to go back after a few weeks they came and gave him the worst beating over several daze he had a had all the time in

prison and broke him. something he was -- he was ashamed of. he shouldn't have been. everybody has a breaking point. everybody in prison had their breaking point. but he was -- he felt guilty about that the rest of his life, which was, you know, totally unnecessary. but it was part of who he was. >> mark, it's willie geist. congratulations on the book. as we watch president trump over the last four years at these rallies saying things like send them back, about sitting united states congresswomen and the way he has stoked a part of his base to keep them close, whatever he has to do, i'm struck by the way that john mccain walked that line. i am thinking about that town hall moment in 2008 down the stretch of a tough political campaign in minnesota when a woman said barack obama is an arab and he took the mic out of her hand and said, no, ma'am, he is a good man, a family man, a

good citizen. we just disagree on the issues, which feels like the way politics see be. at this point it feels like a quaint way of viewing politics. how did he walk that line? >> he thought the american experiment was a sacred project, that it was a project that proved that self-government is the only moral government, that all human beings are entitled to it. he thought our differences were so few compared to all the things that we should be united from, and he ran his campaigns with respect for that. it really was more often than not most of the time country first for him. even at the risk of his own interests, and, you know, in prison at the risk of his own life. i don't think donald trump has ever put this country first for one moment in his toddry life.

but, you know, he would have been appalled, you know, by some of the things that are going on now. yeah, i was there when that question was asked. you know, that was just a typical mccain thing to do. it wasn't a surprise to any of us at the time. >> kasie hunt has the next question. kasie. >> hi, kasie. >> good morning. how are you? the hearings that we're seeing on the hill led by judiciary chairman senator lindsey graham, who was, of course, an old friend, long-time friend of john mccain's, how do you think senator mccain would view the political process that we're seeing now, sure, but also what lindsey graham has done over the course of the past couple of years since senator mccain's passing in embracing president trump? >> yeah. you know, they were very good friends, and i am going to try to avoid, kasie, saying how john mccain would react to this

particular, you know, present moment or something that's happened here other than that i think the division in the country and polarization and the views which this campaign is being prosecuted by the president's campaign would have disappointed him, worried him, i think. he and lindsey were very good friends. he would still be, i am sure, very good friends with lindsey, whatever disagreements they might have about president trump. i'll just leave it at that. >> and they did, mika, they did have disagreements. even at the end of his life, about his relationship with donald trump. but as mark said, they were friends, and you live by a code and you remain friends about people even if you disagree with them politically. >> well, in wrapping up your account, mark, of the senator's

first run for president, which was 20 years ago, you write the following. the fact that a republican political celebrity was regarded favorably by a surprisingly large percentage of democrats, and had off-the-chart support from independents while maintaining solid approval ratings within his own party, should have indicated to republican leaders that mccain was on to something, both in his personal style and his championing of reform-oriented conservatism. the new book is "the luckiest man: live with john mccain." mark salter, i am going to take with me fool's names and fool's faces are often seen in public places. i love that! so, thank you for sharing. >> thank you. we really appreciate it. >> up next, house majority leader steny hoyer is standing by. he joins the conversation next on "morning joe." 20 years ago, i was an hourly

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the white house has been sending mixed signals. trump aides are pushing for immediate action on a bill -- >> wait, wait. but he said he -- >> we will never get through this. >> he wanted to kill it. >> no, he wants immediate action. >> no, he said he wanted it killed, he was going to do it himself. >> immediate action. >> i am confused. are the steroids -- >> it's a tale of two tweets, joe. >> is it the steroids making him act this erratically? >> yes, actually. >> thank you, doctor.

>> i am not a doctor -- >> but you play one on tv. >> i give him that excuse. >> okay. >> all right. this is up to the trump administration's $1.8 trillion proposal was dismissed by both parties. joining us now house majority leader congressman steny hoyer of maryland. great to have you on the show. kasie hunt is on capitol hill. she has got to run, but she's got the first question. kasie. >> let's start right there because, i mean, even mitch mcconnell has been out there saying he is confused about the state of coronavirus relief negotiations and the white house has been insisting that they can get senate republicans onboard. senate republicans seem to have different plans. do you think that there is any possibility that a relief plan could pass before election day or not? >> well, it ought to. it ought to pass in the near -- in the next few days, frankly. but as your lead-in pointed out,

kasie, joe and mika, he's erratic. he's impulsive. you don't foe what he believes from time to time, and he sends mixed messages, and as i understand it from mcconnell, he has at least halfom time to tim mixed messages. as i understand it from mcconnell, he's got at least half of his caucus who don't want to do anything. sort of like mcconnell's response to our may 15th bill where he said let the state goes bankrupt. it's very difficult to negotiate and stay on target. mnuchin could do that. nancy pelosi and the secretary mnuchin reached four major deals dealing with covid-19 and the economic consequences of covid-19. and the health consequences. four major deals passed overwhelmingly on a bipartisan basis. and then, frankly, mcconnell and mccarthy, the leader in the house, walked away and said let's wait and see what happens. we now have over 215,000 people who have died.

7.5, approaching 8 million who have gotten sick. we need to act now. pelosi and mnuchin made four major deals. we ought to be able to make a fifth if the president would stay on target and have a single message. we're not going to negotiate. we'll negotiate on just three things and, oh, by the way now, i'll negotiate and we ought to spend more money than the democrats have proposed. what -- money i don't think is the issue. what is the issue is children and families and restaurants, states and local governments, all of which are absolutely critical if we're going to keep our economy moving and confront effectively this virus. in addition to that, we can't come to an agreement on testing. when all the experts say, all of them, that testing is absolutely critically important to defeating covid-19. so very difficult. apparently the president, whether it's on steroids, but

frankly he was erratic before these steroids so the steroids, i guess, just made it worse. >> it's willie geist. you can see how this is frustrating to a small business owner or family trying to make ends meet, watching this play out in washington. they're not following it the way we are. they don't care who is to blame. they just need some help here. what could change the dynamic here? we know steve mnuchin and mark meadows is following the lead of the president whose take on this changes by the day. how do you change the dynamic of this negotiation so those checks get out the door, maybe you can save some of those small businesses who don't care about the fight on capitol hill. >> look, if the president stays on target with a single concept of what he wants to do, i think we can get that done. i feel badly for secretary mnuchin because he sits in the room with pelosi and others and says, okay, we're going to do this. and it has changed on him as he goes back to the white house. so then he has to call nancy and

say, well, we can't do that or we can't do this. earned income tax credit. that's for families who are working but don't make enough money. we're talking about child care. we know if we want kids back in school, which we need to do, we need to spend money on education. we need to give the local education offices enough resources to make the schools safe or, in addition, to make sure that they can provide virtual learning opportunities for their kids. so these are vital items and, yes, we want to do -- we've agreed on the airlines. we've agreed on he wants to make family payments. we've agreed on unemployment insurance. we have 600. he's up to 400, i believe. but we could make that deal. but we cannot leave people behind that are in desperate need. for instance, nutritional help. we know these food lines with families who never, ever in

their lifetime expected to be in a food line can't put food on their tables. we need to deal with that in a robust way. and every economist says that. chairman powell of the federal reserve said just the other day that, frankly, the $3.4 trillion he thought would be important to do and he is saying doing 2.2 is also important to do. so i think the president is prepared to come to the money. he needs to come to make sure we can take care of the states, whether they are blue or red states, who hire teachers, who hire police, firefighters, who hire sanitation workers and other critical workers in our society to make our society work and make it healthy and be able to defeat this covid virus. nancy pelosi and secretary mnuchin want to make a deal. they made, joe and mika and willie, they made four deals. those four deals were passed

overwhelmingly in a bipartisan fashion. now we have this change back and forth with the president. i will negotiate. i won't negotiate. i'll negotiate this number. i'll negotiate a number higher than the democrats want. we ought to get this done. and we need to take care of the airlines. we're all agreed on that. not in disagreement. but we ought to take care of testing. ought to take care of children and families. ought to take care of states and locals and if we leave those behind and just do partial, well, it may be from the president's standpoint, good that he signs a check giving money to people from him politically, but an awful lot of people are going to be left behind and the economy will not be sustained and health care will not be put forward as a top priority. the top priority, obviously, is the supreme court. while thousands of people are dying on a daily basis, the supreme court of the united states is the most important objective of the republicans.

mcconnell has said that. that's a shame. >> house majority leader steny hoyer, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. joe, before we close today, i want to go through those new poll numbers out this morning from morning consult. joe biden is up 8 percentage points nationally. 51 to 43. turning to several battleground states, biden is up by 14 in colorado, 8 in pennsylvania, 7 in michigan and wisconsin. 6 in minnesota and 5 in florida. biden also leads in north carolina by 4 and in arizona by 3. the two are statistically tied in georgia while trump is ahead by two in texas. three in ohio and 12 in south carolina. break those down for us. >> well, you know, willie, if you just look at the upper midwest, which, of course, we all were looking at after 2016,

explaining how donald trump could win the election that nobody expected him to win. it was because of those upper midwest states. pennsylvania, wisconsin and michigan. we've seen one poll after another this week showing biden up 8. this morning, 8 in pennsylvania, 7 in wisconsin. 7 in michigan. "the new york times"/siena poll yesterday had biden up 10 in wisconsin 8 in michigan. and the trump campaign understands they cannot win those two states. they have to win pennsylvania if they want to have a chance at this. but we're also starting to see polls showing joe biden starting to separate in florida. this poll he's up by five points which, again, not to underline it, but why don't we end where we began. there are a hell of a lot of seniors in florida that are looking at donald trump's recklessness with a disease that's killed 215,000 people and a lot of seniors.

and they have to be scratching their heads going, why is he still not taking this seriously? i can't vote for him. >> the same morning consult poll has him down eight points. the president down eight points to joe biden among seniors, the people you're talking about who are watching that event in florida and can't believe their eyes. we are three weeks from today, there will be election day. joe biden has to like where he is in those polls. the campaign likes where they are in those polls. but they would also tell you, we are three weeks from election day. i don't hear any complacency from them. i don't hear it from most democrats because they know how close this race will be. if you just take those upper midwest states that handed donald trump the white house from michigan and wisconsin and then you move over to pennsylvania, those are widening. there's no question about it. the gap is getting wider in those states and it's where it's been before. meanwhile this morning, i would also point out that president trump is now going after dr. fauci on twitter because, as we

showed several times during this program, dr. fauci has expressed concern. he said of the rallies last night in florida, you're asking for trouble with an event like that. and he said generally, we are facing a whole lot of trouble as we look towards fall and winter here. >> well, of course, also dr. fauci's words were twisted beyond recognition by donald trump. lied about what dr. fauci said about him in a campaign ad. and i guess donald trump doesn't understand that dr. fauci doesn't have to put up with that sleazy behavior. >> yeah. don't rnd mine your top doctor and don't have those events that could lead to more people dying. the more people are dying, the more that you are losing. that does it for us this morning. chuck todd picks up this special coverage of day two of the confirmation hearing for judge amy coney barrett.

>> good tuesday morning. i'm chuck todd of nbc news. welcome to msnbc's special coverage of the supreme court nomination hearings for judge amy coney barrett. lindsey graham will gavel in for what's going to be a marathon 11-hour day of testimony. the 22 senators on the committee will each get 30 minutes to directly question judge barrett. they'll do tall today. all but two democratic senators, kamala harris and patrick leahy, are expected to appear in the hearing room in person, including thom tillis who was diagnosed with the coronavirus just 11 days ago. we'll have an incredible team here to cover every angle of this. garrett haake is inside the hearing room. senior white house reporter shannon pettypiece, also joining the conversation, former missouri senator, claire mccaskill and melissa murray, law professor at nyu. and a former law