tuesday after the second monday in november. if you take that as the statute -- >> i've never been asked the question before, i've never looked into it. >> does the constitution give the president of the united states the authority to unilaterally delay a general election under any circumstances? does federal law? >> well, senator, if that question ever came before me, i would need to hear arguments from the litigants and read briefs and consult with my law clerks and talk to my colleagues and go through the opinion-writing process. >> really? okay. well, as of right now at least the presidential election is 20 days away. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, october 14th. joe has the morning off, but along with willie and me we have former chair of the republican national committee and senior adviser to the lincoln project, michael steele. white house reporter for the "associated press," jonathan

lemire. professor at princeton university and author of the book begin again, eddie glaude junior. and republican strategist susan delaware percio is with us. and we're going to get to that answer or rather nonanswer from supreme court nominee amy coney barrett on the question of a president's ability to delay the election and the transfer of power. it was kind of a concerning moment for democrats yesterday and a lot of conservatives. we'll talk to michael steele and susan del percio about that and read actually what the constitution says. texts were pretty sure that ag barr and judge barrett are both quite aware of, in fact i'm going to double down and say i know they're aware of it. but first, willie, a defiant president holds another packed campaign rally despite concerns that we could be in the midst of

a second wave of covid. we are in the midst of a global pandemic. >> yeah, another night, another big crowded maskless rally as if this whole pandemic is not taking place. covid-19 cases continue to rise nationwide with infections spreading rapidly in the midwest. states like indiana, minnesota, north dakota setting new averages -- new average highs for cases each of the past eight days. saturday, more than 20 states have reported new highs and their seven day average the case counts. and more than half of those states set records yesterday. covid-19 hospitalizations hit their highest level in nearly six weeks. meanwhile, trish scalia, the wife of eugene scalia tested positive. the statement was she has mild symptoms but is doing well. secretary scalia tested negative on friday night. he has experiences nod no sympt he will work from home.

why is this significant? secretary skille and his wife attended that rose garden ceremony last month where president trump nominated amy coney barrett to fill the vacancy. we have confirmed 27 members of the campaign officials and contacts of donald trump have recently tested positive for coronavirus. of these, at least 14 were in attendance at the september 26th rose garden event for judge barrett, mika. >> just to frame all that, the white house is in the middle of its own outbreak. and with all that as a backdrop, the president continues to hold packed campaign rallies with people squished together when they don't need to be. last night's rally was in southwest pennsylvania. and once again there was no social distancing and few people were wearing masks. and all of these people are being put in danger by the trump campaign. even as the virus surges, the

president claimed begin that the u.s. is, quote, rounding the turn. >> we have -- the vaccines are coming soon, the therapeutics, and frankly, the cure. all i know is i took something, whatever the hell it was i felt good very quickly. i don't know what it was. antibodies! antibodies! i don't know. i took it, i said i felt like superman and i said, let me at 'em! to everyone fighting to recover from the virus, i feel your pain because i felt your pain. and we will beat this virus together and for those -- who has had it? who has it here? who's had it? a lot of people. a lot of people. well you're the people i want to say hello to because you are right now immune. you're right now immune. or they say that. they hate to admit it bas i hec had it. in the old days they say you're

ex-mun for li immune for life. now it's four months. >> that's not true. scientists are looking at cases recurring on people who have already had it. but number two, more importantly, jonathan lemire, you see a message emerging out of the president's wife and even from this white house, herd immunity that that's maybe the way they want to go with this, which would potentially mean many more deaths. >> mika, the defying moments from last night show again how this president -- it's a striking disconnect from reality in terms of the coronavirus in two different ways. first of all, his on condition. there's very little that he did to address his own situation last night, except for the bit you just played where he talked about receiving an antibodies' treatment that at least for now is not available to most of the public. he of course received that because he's receiving the very

best care at walter reed medical center. he talked about being immune which we know scientists are convinced that's not the case for him or anyone else who has had the coronavirus. he suggested that he was well enough, though, that he would plunge into the audience and kiss everyone there as proof that he wasn't contagious anymore. and i would strongly -- i think medical experts would back me up on this, not advise him to do that. secondly, he, again, is framing it as the nation itself having turned the corner when that's simply not the case. we are seeing cases across the nation surge. we are seeing states have their highest daily totals in months, but none of that factors into their framing, which is remarkably unchanged since the president's own diagnosis ten or so days ago. this rally could have taken place a month ago or two months ago in terms of how the president is addressing the virus. still not being honest about where the nation is in terms of handling it. in fact, in many places it's getting worse. there were thousands of people there last night, mika, packed

in closely together, not many in masks. some, as you can see in the video clip behind him because those are handed out for the purposes of the tv footage. but very little elsewhere. but the president's campaign has made a decision to plunge forward, blinders on, and act again like the nation incorrectly is turning the corner on the virus because they don't vape choihave a choice. the president is running out of time. it should be noted as a final point, his first two days of resuming his time on the campaign trail he visited the two most important states on the map, florida and pennsylvania. two states he probably can't win without as his -- shrinks. today he has to go to iowa, a state he won in 2016 but he's forced to play defense there because the pressure joe biden is putting all across the ma'am. the president is in a real bind. >> let's flush out the week even further, talk about states where he's playing defense. iowa today, north carolina tomorrow. these are the president's trip this week. and then on friday he'll be in both florida and georgia before spending the weekend on saturday

in michigan and wisconsin. so how is the trump campaign looking at the map right now? i think they don't want to be in a position where you're having go to georgia 2 1/2 weeks ahead of the election and fight for what is has now become a toss up. >> they're in an extraordinarily difficult spot. they don't have anywhere near the financial resources right now that the biden campaign does. the biden campaign is just swamping them on the airwaves in terms of advertisements and outside groups as well. the trump campaign has pulled down ads in a number of states. they're saying, like in ohio, because they're confident they don't need them. polls suggest otherwise and point to, perhaps, a lack of finances on their part. and they have this incredibly difficult balancing act. they're path to 270 seems to be shrinking by the day. there are some states they can't win without, florida, he's going to be there before election day. but as deficits go between michigan and wisconsin, they're

betting big on pennsylvania. but at the same time, this points to a campaign in trouble. it's one thing to put in a final push in these battleground states, that's where you want to be, that's what campaigns do in the final three weeks. but to also play defense in states where he won with ease in 2016, you said it, willie, georgia later this week. when was the last time a republican president or frankly any republican candidate had to go to georgia in the last couple weeks of an election? iowa tonight. there's talk of an ohio trip that he'll have to do next couple of days. they're even worried about where the polls stand in texas. and that, again, even if he ends up hanging on to these states, the fact that he's got to spend time and money there in the final weeks, that shows a campaign in trouble and it's every day he spends in, say, georgia, say day he can't spend in pennsylvania. >> and here's a poll that shows the point i'm making. in the state of north carolina, why is the president going there tomorrow? here's why. he's in a dead heat. that's within the margin of

error. that's a new monmouth poll, joe biden up four points, that's a tie if you consider the margin of error. michael steele, let's talk about who joe biden is talking to right now in the state of florida and more broadly and how president trump is addressing that same group. i'm talking about seniors. joe biden directly appealing to senior voters at an event in florida yesterday as the president's support among the 65 plus age group has continued to decline despite the president's recent efforts to win them over. >> while you're losing precious time with your loved ones, he's been stuck in a sand trap in one of his golf courses. and when he does decide to lift a finger, it isn't to help you. you've worked hard your whole life contributing to society, building a family, building a country, serving america. you deserve security. you deserve respect and peace of mind. but you're not getting it. and, by the way, if this wasn't so bizarre, you'd think if i tried to make a movie talking

about something like this in america, you'd think i was making it up. because donald trump, it's simple, not a joke, you're expendable, you're forgettable, you're virtually nobody. that's how he sees seniors, this careless, reckless covid response has caused one of the worst tragedies in american history. the only senior that donald trump cares about, the only senior is the senior donald trump. >> so, compare that appeal, michael, to senior voters by biden to this tweet by president trump yesterday. a photo shopped picture of joe biden inserted into a scene presumeedly from an assisted living facility for senior citizens with an edited biden campaign logo adjusted to read, biden for resident. a jab at biden's age comes as at least three different recent polls found the president at a wide disadvantage among voters

age 65 and older. it's an age group that trump won by nine points in 2016. and michael steele, to build on willie's point, president trump is devying his own reality as if there is something wrong with being a senior citizen. and by the way, senior citizens vote avidly. they are interested in this election, they are also interested in their health. >> it is a core constituency and has been for over a generation now. that's how we have put together the kinds of wins that have allowed us to take the house in 2010, for example. a lot of that was on the back of and help from seniors around the country. but particularly in places like florida. so you have, mika and willie, a contrast not just in style, but in the substance of the conversation. one in which you had joe biden actually connecting with seniors in a way that, you know, says to

them, hey, i get where you are at this stage in your life, but i also understand how important you are to what we need to get done in order to turn the country around. verse what's y versus what you saw from the president, not just that mocking tweet, but his own rhetoric on the stage when he talks about himself. they say i'm a senior but i don't feel like it, i don't act like it. so that's a putdown. it's not a recognition of what these men and women represent, not just to the base of the republican party, but to the country as a whole. and the role that they play in setting the direction and have played in setting the direction. so, you know, the president feels -- the one thing i think joe biden said indirectly which i'll say directly is the president takes these voters for granted. he's making assumptions about 2016 in 2020. and the fact of the matter is, this is a completely different race. it's not just what the numbers

are showing, it's just the dynamics from coindividual to civ covid to civil unrest and then his tenure to all that represented by his tweet photo shopped in a wheelchair is the ultimate insult to the men and women who have actually could help him get over the finish line. >> you know, after 2016 when the president eeked out his win in the electoral college and became president there are was some thought that donald trump had some understanding of the electorate, that he was in some ways a political mastermind, he figured out how to become president of the united states by saying the right things to the right group of people. and you watch something like that yesterday and add it to a long list of puzzling recent moments he's had in terms of getting himself re-elect and you wonder what he's thinking when he posts a picture mocking a senior citizens and mocking them broadly when he knows they're a group who helped propel him to

the white house in 2016 and with whom he's getting crushed with right now. >> we've seen over and over again off these last 3 1/2 plus years that donald trump's political instincts are really bad. that he really doesn't know how to do politics. in some ways, what he did he was rolled a seven if we played dice, right? he rolled an 11 when it came to 2016. one of the things that we do know is that early voting suggests that there is a lot of excitement and enthusiasm among the democratic base. willie, we know that not only in terms of the older vote, 65 and older, we're seeing long lines in georgia. we're seeing extraordinarily long lines in texas. that has a lot do with the ineptitude of those -- of the secretary of states in those areas, but it's also and i occasion of just how important this election is to many folk around the country. and so donald trump thinks he's going to repeat 2016, but when we look at the fundamentals on the ground, it is radically

different. and so, again, evidence suggests that his political sense is really dull and dim, willie. >> well, we'll see. we'll see. but i will say i don't think in 2016 he was begging. president trump made this plea at his rally last night to suburban women. >> i ask you do me a favor. suburban women, will you please like me? please. please. i saved your damn neighborhood, okay. the other thing i don't have that much time to be that nice. i can do it but i gotta go quickly. we don't have time. they want me to be politically correct. yes, let's discuss it, let's talk about it over the next ten years. no, no, no. we saved your -- we saved suburbia in the u.s. >> so, susan del percio, there's still this misunderstanding on donald trump's part that we are

at home like cleaning the floors and in suburbia and we're afraid of what -- i mean, i don't know how you could list the ways in which, perhaps, women who happen to live in the sur beshs have be suburbs have been insulted by this man, but you might try. >> i want to know who donald trump thinks he saved the suburbs from? from who? was who was going to hurt these suburban women that he thinks can he relate to? he can't. those rallies show recklessness. they show that he does not care for other people. just like when he spoke to the issue of law and order, he poured fuel on the fire. that's not how a suburban or any other voter wants to see from the president. they want a president who tampers down the situation and who brings public safety. again, these rallies show no

regard for public safety. of course it's a turnout. and now with 20 days left to go, those numbers are pretty thin. when you're in the 30s, it's hard to dig out of that with women. and i just don't see it happening, frankly. but he -- when he makes those kind of pleas, that even makes it worse. there's no explaining it. it's desperation. >> except, i will swha explaiay explains it is if you don't plan to win fairly and i think that's what a lot of people are watching even during the supreme court hearings. let's look at other stories we're following. eddie mentioned the long voting flie lines in texas. they saw the longest lines. voters in harris county shattered the record on the first day of in-person voting with more than 128,000 ballots cast. election officials say they were

mine nor minor sporadic machine problems leading to longer lines. meanwhile, they stepped the census count immediately. it blocks a u.s. appeals order that would require the administration to continue gathering census information in the field until the end of october. and what it concluded would increase accuracy after field operations were suspended in march because of the pandemic. but the census burrow saeau wany stop the count so it could meade meet a mandated september 30th deadline to report to the president. they write this. the harms caused by rushing this year's census count are irreparable and that those seeking to keep the count going, quote, will suffer their lasting impact for the next ten years until the next census is conducted. mika. and president trump has renewed his calls on the supreme court to block a subpoena for

his texas retur his tax returns. trump's lawyers asked yesterday to delay a ruling that would allow the manhattan district attorney to obtain trump's financial records. in a 38 page emergency action, they told the judge that it was wrong that the prosecutor had a legal right to subpoena the materials and that an appeals court panel in new york was wrong to uphold that ruling this month. the lawyers argued that, quote. it president's records are disclosed publicly, then the harm will not only be irrelevant repairable, it will be case muting. if the supreme court denies the stay, it is possible that the manhattan prosecutor could enforce the subpoena and then get a copy of the requested documents before election day. but still outside of public

view. what's he hide somethiing? still ahead, we're breaking down day two of the supreme court hearings of amy coney barrett and the key question she refused to answer. plus, with new york seeing an uptick in coronavirus hospitalizations, we will be joined by governor andrew cuomo. and as we go to break, a note that joe's new book, saving freedom, truman, the cold war and the fight for western civilization is coming out on november 24th, but you can pre order it now. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. now. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. did you know you can go to libertymutual.com

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senate confirmation hearings continue this morning for president trump's supreme court nominee amy coney barrett. judge barrett faced tough questions from democrats yesterday who have tried portray her nomination as a potential threat to health care, abortion rights, and more. in one notable moment, judge barrett was asked about whether the president could delay the

upcoming election, an idea you'll remember president trump floated earlier this year. >> does the constitution give the president of the united states the authority to unilaterally delay a general election under any circumstances? does federal law? >> well, senator, if that question ever came before me, i would need to hear arguments from the litigants and read briefs and consult with my law clerks and talk to my colleagues and go through the opinion-writing process. so, you know, if i give off the cuff answers, then i would be basically a legal pundit and i don't think we want judges to be legal pundits. i think we want judges to approach cases thoughtfully and with an open mind. >> do you believe that every president should make a commitment unequivocally and resolutely to the peaceful transfer of power? >> well, senator, that seems to

me to be pulling me in a little bit into this question of whether the president has said that he would not peacefully leave office. and so to the extent that this is a political controversy right now, as a judge, i want to stay out of it. >> joining us now, senior writer of diplomat"politico," jake she jake, good morning. we're going to get into these questions in a moment about delaying the election, the peaceful transfer of power. but from your vantage point cover capitol hill, republicans came in feeling very good but judge amy coney barrett, and i imagine they're feeling maybe even a little bit better this morning. >> yeah, i think this is just a train that's going that's heading to the next station, so to speak, without much interruption, willie. i mean, i don't want to -- i'm going to be like amy coney barrett here a little bit. i don't think that democrats have derailed this nomination in any way. i mean, obviously the brett kavanaugh nomination wasn't derailed after some incredibly

serious allegations. judge barrett has kind of skated through yesterday without being touched at all and she used this kind of tried and true tactic, willie, which we've seen for the last seven nominees, which is we're not -- she's just not answering questions on potential decisions that may or may not come before the court. she's not judging anything that has come before the court in the past. she's just speaking broadly about her judicial philosophy and what that means in terms of how she thinks about deciding decisions and how she thinks about cases kind of broadly speaking. >> and, jake, i think you had the most important tweet of the day. you wrote ban speeches during confirmation hearings. amen to that. does anyone love the sound of their own voice more than a united states senator? it's amazing. >> it's just completely ridiculous, willie. i saw you retweeted that, it put a twinkle in my eye. it's ridiculous. it's absolutely crazy. we don't need to hear these people speak and if they say

that the nominee's not answering questions, they may want to lick in the mirror. amy klobuchar got her to answer questions and she wasn't giving speeches. that's probably a blueprint here. if you ask pointed questions the right way, you're going to get answers. >> cory booker did the same as well. jonathan lemire, i put that same question to you. we know how republicans on capitol hill are feeling, judge barrett was impressive. democrats disagree with her in a lot of places, most importantly maybe on the affordable care act. but how is the white house feeling about how this process is moving today? >> perhaps the president has a twinkle in his eye too, willie. the white house is very pleased from what they've seen so far. president briefly addressed the hearings as he left the white house yesterday for that rally in pennsylvania, said that -- i believe he said that amy's doing really great. and they are. privately that's what they're saying as well. they feel like she's been strong, they feel like she's been commanding, they feel like she hasn't really been touched by democrats. but that seems to be sort of the strategy for the democrats.

yes, there have been a few pointed questions certainly and entirely too many speeches, i'll back up jake on that. but it seems like the democrats largely are take an almost do no harm approach where they realize there's not much they can do to stop this confirmation and their focus, instead, is on the white house and the senate elections in a few weeks. but in terms of the west wing, they're pleased. and the campaign on the trump side still hopes this is a hearing that will sort of electrify their base and change the conversation from the pandemic. but it doesn't really at least so far seem to have done that and enthusiasm boost they're seeing on the right is certainly matched by democrats and those on the left as well. >> well, in a new op-ed for "the washington post" entitled postpone the election, voter intimidation, amy coney barrett is open to it. dana millbag points out the exact parts of the constitution that set the date of the election and that amy coney barrett absolutely positively knows about. dana writes in part, sure,

nominees try to avoid the slippery slope of opining on potential cases, but there is no room for argument here, especially from a self-proclaimed originalist and textualist. article 2 section 1 of the constitution states the congress may determine the time choosing the elections and the day on which they shall give their vote. which day shall be the same throughout the united states. the 20th amendment of the constitution requires the terms of the president and the vice president shall end at noon on the 20th day of january and the terms of their successors shall then begin. title 3 section 1 chapter 1 of the u.s. code specifies the electors of president and vice president shall be appointed each -- in each state on tuesday, the next tuesday after the first monday in november in every fourth year succeeding every election of a president

and vice president. michael steele, there are few questions around these statements, actually i'll say there are none. that could not be more clear and the frustrating thing is, the nominee knew this and could have easily pointsed to it and could ha have easily pointed to her own understanding of it. she's a very brilliant woman, she clearly respects and focus obs the constitution as where she draws the beginning of where they makes her opinion and then thinks about all the other factors. but the constitution is clear here and she knows it. >> she does. and that line of questioning along with a series of others represented a particular problem when she actually touched on. i think you played the clip a moment ago where she -- where she alluded to, well, you know, this is an area where the president has said that, you know, this or that shouldn't happen o

happen or he wants this particular outcome. it put her in an untenable box as a nominee to play in this political space which she was very much trying not to play in. so my read in listening to her answer that question was all she saw was this is a political trap. i don't want to fall into this political trap because this -- this is not a case in cra controversy and it's something that's now been pushed into a political space given the constitution, given everything you just cited, that your know, now i'm -- i don't want to play in this space. now i don't know if i would agree with that, because i think the letter of the law and the constitution are on her side if she were to say, yeah, read the text as a textualist. but i understood where she was. she on a couple of issues was trapped by the president's own hot rhetoric around his nominee. so she wanted to avoid being used in that sense or falling

into that particular trap of answering a question that could then come back and bite her politically if a case in controversy of that magnitude reaches her at the bench. >> yeah. i still think -- >> i mean, i don't know -- >> it would be easier -- go ahead. >> it is, but i think the politics of it, and that's the problem when you have a president who's out here telling you and telegraphing my nominee's going to do this for me. and then that nominee's sitting in the hearing trying to be a judge, to become a justice on the supreme court, it's -- it's particularly hard. i'm not excusing it, i'm just trying to put some context and understanding behind what i think she was going through at that moment. >> yeah. and she made that really clear, susan del percio, when she was talking to cory booker. i think she -- she kind of walked that very, very tight rope very delicately and tried to make clear her intentions

that she doesn't want to jump into a big political issue right now. that's not what she's there for. >> and i agree with michael steele. she kind of was trapped. i don't think it was a good answer. think she could have been forthright about it. at the same time, i think that the democrats have been much more successful in talking about the repeal of obamacare and making health care an issue throughout these hearings. i think it would be a mistake if they use this as a way of changing the subject. because the more they can stay on health care, especially during a pandemic, the better off they are politically. did she -- did she kind of miss out on this opportunity to show she was a little independent? sure. but she was very consistent in not answering questions. so she did the job that she had to do. whether you agree with it or not, i don't, it was basically her only option. >> so, eddie, it was a long day. almost 12 hours of questioning

of judge barrett yesterday, we'll get another day of it here today. a lot of focus on the affordable care act. yesterday rightly so she wouldn't come out and say i'm going to comment on a case that will before the court in less than a month. what are you looking for today? what more would you like to hear by judge barrett? what should she be asked by these sflars? >> senators? >> i don't expect to hear much more from her. she's going to play the ginsburg rule. i think there's some efforts on the part of the democrats to try to get a better sense of her judicial philosophy, although think they're clear about the outcomes. i think although i agree with you and jake about the speeches, i think sheldon whitehouse's speech yesterday was really important about the puppet nature of this whole process that there are strings and sticks being moved about here. and i thought he did a great job in terms of framing the theater of this whole process. so i don't necessarily think anything new can be asked, i think she will continue to evade

any concrete responses. i know people are trying to push her on roe, people might be trying to push her on gay may marriage and prosecute the case around aca. but i think michael steele is right about the way in which judge barrett responded to the question about the peaceful transition of power. but i thought senator diane feinstein's question was a bit more nuanced in this sense, right? it offered us a window into her understanding of limited and scope of executive power. so when you frame her answer alongside bill barr's answer, that -- that offers a window into how is she thinking about the executive branch? and how -- how we might limit its power. now that seems to me, although it's a bit in the weeds, something that would be interesting to understand in relation to her jurisprudence. but, again, willie, i don't expect much new to come today, it's the same theater, the same outcome there are train is making its way into the station. >> it is. it will be interesting to see if

judge barrett seeks to clarify some of those answers on the transfer of power when she comes back today. we will see. meanwhile, senate majority leader mitch mcconnell announced a covid-19 relief package will be the first order of business when the senate returns next week. he said it will be targeted relief for workers, but house speaker nancy pelosi is urging her caucus to hold out for the larger deal. here is some of the contentious interview she had on cnn with wolf blitzer. >> let me quote a man you know well, he's a democrat, and he just said this. he said people in need can't wait until february. $1.8 trillion is significant and more than twice the obama stimulus. make a deal, put the ball in mcconnell court. what do you say too him? >> what i say to yousy don't know why you're always an apologist and many of your colleagues apologists for the republican position.

that isn't what we're going to do. nobody is waiting until february. i want this very much now because people need help now. >> so, jake, wolf asking basic questions of there speaker pelosi. she didn't like them but what is going on here more broadly? on the one hand you have speaker pelosi saying we've holding out for the deal we've put on the table. you have leader mcconnell saying on monday we're coming back with a targeted package that helps small businesses recognizing the pain they're going through. where does this leave census where does this leave people who need the money today? it leaves them without the man they ne money that they need and i would argue perhaps no deal until 2021, some long into 2021. i can't say that definitively. but nancy pelosi believes that she has a strong negotiating hand against the administration to force them to accept a deal that are closer to her terms. now, the big outstanding items are state and local rescue money, money for state and local

governments which republicans have a sharp disagreement with democrats about. what the republicans are going to look to pass in the senate say very slimmed down proposal that includes some broadly bipartisan measures like an extension of the paycheck protection program, the ppp program saved all those businesses a couple months ago, and some other measures that are broadly democrats agree with. but there's a power play going on here, willie, and the power play is nancy pelosi believes that there should be more and doesn't believe in giving away a half measure when a full measure is needed. i don't know whether she's right, wrong, or indifferent. i don't know whether she has a great negotiating hand or not. but these two positions are irrelevant reconcilable and either nancy pelosi needs to fold or republicans need to fold and neither looks likely. why do we say it doesn't look likely? because they've been in this negotiating position since may. this is the longest negotiation i've ever covered maybe besides the aca. so, you know, we're six months into this. i don't know whose fault it is,

but nancy pelosi wants a big bill, republicans want a small bill, they haven't been able to bridge that gap. >> all right. "politico's" jake sherman, thank you so much for being on this morning. and coming up, another drug maker puts a pause on coronavirus clinical trials over safety concerns. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. tyfe concerns. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. there's so much to take advantage of. like $0 copays on virtual visits... ♪ wow ♪ uh-huh $0 copays on primary care visits and lab tests. ♪ wow ♪ uh-huh plus, $0 copays on hundreds of prescription drugs. ♪ wow ♪ uh-huh unitedhealthcare medicare advantage plans. including the only plans with the aarp name. most plans have a $0 premium. it's time to take advantage. ♪ wow such as high blood pressure,ve pdiabetes, and asthma.s this administration and senate republicans want to overturn laws requiring insurance companies

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drug maker eli lilly and company announced yesterday that this is pausing its covid-19 antibody treatment clinical trial due to a potential safety concern. the news comes just a day after johnson and johnson paused its covid-19 vaccine trial. after an unexplained illness. lil ly's drug is similar to what the president received and is currently being tested on hospital patients. a spokeswoman told nbc news how

the of an abundances of caution, the active three independent safety monitoring board has recommended a pause in enrollment. lilly is supportive of the decision to cautiously assurity safety of the patients participating in the study. joining us now, "morning joe" chief medical correspondent dr. dave campbell. dr. dave, to an extent this is not surprising. many experts said the road to a vaccine is bumpy and long and there are these testing phases in place for a reason. >> well, in one concern or one thing that we must think about is that the safety controls that are in place to keep clinical trials heading in the right direction, importantly, identify problems as they develop and a pause that goes into a clinical trial is usually because of safety concerns, if somebody becomes ill, or they have a side effect from the drug.

so with this particular monoclonal antibody therapy coming out of lilly, we can believe from other clinical trials that have been paused, there must be something like that. however, interestingly last night in a separate incident, the fda has come out with a quality control problem at the lilly plant in branchberg, new jersey, that came about from a review of the data collection systems at that plant. it seems to be separate, it was reported by reuters late last night, but now we see the lilly plant was investigated by the fda and an official action indicated report came out, which is not a warning letter, but it's the next step toward the company having to correct some flaws in the manufacturing process at the plant that this

monoclonal antibody, neutralizing antibody drug is being manufactured at, mika. >> all right. i want to get to the rally in sanford, florida, for example, because the president's holding them all over the country. i believe pennsylvania had another one as well. but if you look at the video from -- from these events, many of them are, you know, around his plane and airport. there is 100% the opportunity to social distance these people, to spread them out so that they are not such a risk to each other. but as you can see, the campaign has made sure that everybody is side by side, shoulder to shoulder, absolutely positively exchanging droplets and breathing on each other. so, what was the risk for attendees and their families and friends back home at the trump rally in sanford, florida? we'll just kind of focus in on that one. >> you know, this is a best case/worst case scenario.

florida happens to have a relatively low positivity rate. sanford in particular just north of orlando, the positivity rate was below five, that's good. florida's around six plus right now but going up. if you look across the country, however, the -- many, many states, over 20 states now have increasing rates of infection, and there's no reason to believe that that's going to slow down. so, the risk is high that because they were jammed together and many of them did not have masks on. you were correct about that. that there could be some transmission coming from this and other rallies. so there's no reason for people to avoid social distancing, face masks, just follow the cdc guidelines for prevention because we cannot yet rely on the development of a vaccine and now we're seeing question not rely on the development of other therapies once you have become

infected like we see with lilly, like j&j having to pause their trial for vaccines and other, astrazeneca in the past. so the road to treatment for the infection is less clear than the obvious stated way to prevent the infection with face masks, hand washing, and social distancing. >> dr. dave campbell, thank you very, very much. we're going to have more ahead on these continued trump rallies despite all the health officials saying that this is probably not a good idea. less than -- wow. look at this. i'm just -- i'm -- i'm at a loss. with 20 days until november, the november election, president trump takes his campaign to pennsylvania and pleads for support from a key voting group. plus, supreme court nominee amy coney barrett claims roe v. wade a landmark legal decision on

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still ahead, new york governor andrew cuomo will be our guest as covid cases are once again on the rise. and we continue to tell the stories of the people who lost their lives to the coronavirus. dr. steven kamholz served on new york's front lines as chair of medicine when the pandemic hit. he quickly got to work ordering more supplies and orchestrating the hospital's double in capacity all while teaching residents and treating patients. he fell ill in april and for his last eight weeks, he continued to teach his staff critical care while he was a patient. dr. kamholz on june 11th at the

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there's a lot of people here tonight. [ cheers and applause ] >> a lot of people. i wish the fake news would show it. they never turn the cameras, you know. >> is he talking about us? we'll show the crowd. there's the crowd. there it is. you can see the crowd. another trump rally with no social distancing. and few people wearing masks and, quite frankly, johnstown, pennsylvania, has a lot of space. but look at those metal barriers squishing everybody together almost ensuring that they pass the virus to each other as they are hooting and shouting and waving their arms at the president. this is no joke. we're at an airport. people can spread out but they are refusing to. i don't think it's the people, per se, i think it's the

campaign that makes sure they have this shot. the president surround by adoring supporters squished together perhaps passing the virus from one to another. he's continuing to hold these packed campaign rallies despite a rise in cases of coronavirus and really making these events officially super spreader events very much like the one he held at the white house in the rose gored than caused so many people to get ill. well back to "morning joe." it's wednesday, october 14th. the ap's jonathan lemire and former chair of the republican national committee michael steele still with us this morning. and joining the conversation, chief white house correspondent for "the new york times" and coauthor of the new book the man who ran washington, peter baker. msnbc mike barn knack will icle this morning. and claire mccaskill along with

willie and me. joe has the morning off. and covid cases continue to rise nationwide with infections spreading rapidly in the midwest. state like indiana, minnesota, and north dakota have set a new average high for cases each of the past eight days. since saturday, more than 20 states have reported new highs in their seven-day average of case counts. and more than half of those states set records yesterday. so he individual 19 hospitalizations hit the highest level in nearly six weeks. and, willie, the president continues to act like nothing is going on. >> yeah, that's right. if you look at those events and all the rallies we're going to see this week including tonight another one, a couple more this weekend, a couple more on friday, this is all taking place while that outbreak in the white house continues. trish scalia, the wife of president trump's labor secretary, eugene scalia, has tested positive for coronavirus. a statement from the department

last night said she has, quote, mild symptoms but is doing well. that's good news. while secretary scalia tested negative himself on friday night and has experienced no symptoms. the agency said for the time being that the secretary will work from home. secretary scalia and his wife attended last month's rose garden ceremony where president trump officially nominated judge amy coney barrett to fill the supreme court vacancy. as of yesterday evening, nbc news has confirmed 27 members of the trump administration, campaign officials and contacts recently have tested positive for coronavirus. of these, at least 14 were in attendance at the september 26 rose garden event for judge barrett. and yet, as you've said, mika, the president continues to hold packed campaign rallies like the one last night in pennsylvania. >> we have the -- the vaccines are coming soon, the therapeutics and franklin, the cure. all i know is i took something, whatever the hell it was i felt good very quickly.

i don't know what it was. antibodies! antibodies! i don't know. i took it, i said i felt like superman. and i said, let me at 'em! to everyone fighting to recover from the virus, i feel your pain because i felt your pain. and we will beat this virus together and for those -- who has had it? who has had it here? who's had it? a lot of people. a lot of people. you're the people i want to say hello to because you are right now immune. you're right now immune. or they say that. you know they hate to admit it because i had it. so in the old days they said, well, if you have it you're immune for life, right? once i got it they give you four months. they say you're immune -- you know, anybody else but me, you're immune for life. >> so, peter, what are we 13 days from the president's announcement at least of his diagnosis that he was positive for covid-19. monday florida, tuesday pennsylvania, wednesday today in

iowa. tomorrow north carolina. tomorrow and friday georgia rallies and florida. and i suspect they'll all look a lot like the one last night. big crowds packed in tightly, some people wearing masks, some people not. >> exactly, willie. since the president was -- tested positive, more than 10,000 americans have died from the coronavirus. that's three more 9/11s in the space of a couple weeks. for him it's not a problem. but for 2 million americans, that's not the case. even people who don't necessarily pass away from this, often have cases far more severe than what the president has seen. they have weeks of lung problems and permanent, you know, what seem to be lasting damage to their -- to their breathing and their lungs and sometimes we've seen people go back to the hospital and weeks after they thought they had gotten better. so the president, once again, has shown that whatever lesson

he got interest his cone coronavirus experience does not translate into a larger behavior. that crowd last night was more packed and more dense and more risky than the one at the rose garden that seemingly caused the outbreak that made the white house the leading hot spot in the nation's capital. >> claire mccaskill, the president on the issue of age and how he attacks joe biden and on this coronavirus just continues to defy his own reality. and i wonder, i mean, my contention is, and it could be naive because we saw what happened four years ago, if people are dying, he is losing. because how could people in pennsylvania and people in florida which has its share of seniors, but this pennsylvania folks there want to make a good living. they work hard, they deal with the health care issues that most americans deal with, they deal with their own mortality in the

age of this pandemic. how could they look at these pictures and say, yeah, i want to vote for him? what am i miss something maying? maybe they do. >> this is a real head scratcher, these rallies. at that point in the campaign trump is behind, i think he maybe would acknowledge that to a close aide, so he needs to get votes. and the way he gets votes is by bringing back voters that voted for him four years ago. and who has he lost? he has lost seniors. and why has he lost them? because they're seeing these rallies. he doesn't think that people are living this every day. he cannot relate. these rallies are not for his campaign. these rallies are not for votes. these rallies are for him. his ego. his confidence is shaken. he's scared. the only thing that will keep him going over the last three weeks of this campaign is seeing

these crowds that adore him. but everyone else is seeing these crowds and they're horrified. >> happy birthday, michael, it's birthday plus one for mike barnicle. 57 years old again this year. congratulations on that. >> thank you. >> but i want to ask you the way president trump has been talking about seniors. we played some of joe biden talking to seniors saying president trump takes your vote for granted, he's not looking after you during this pandemic. yesterday president trump tweeted this photoshopped picture of joe biden inserted into a scene that looks an awful lot like an assisted living facility for senior citizens with an edited biden campaign logo adjusted to read biden for resident. at least three different recent polls show the president trailing joe biden among voters age 65 and older. it's an age group president trump won by nine points in 2016. just another confounding strategic move by the president of the united states who knows he needs that senior vote to attack them again in a meme

that's going around today. >> yeah, well claire mccaskill, not for the first time, is on to something here, willie. these rallies are, indeed, for donald trump. and he is actually thinking that he's looking at a mirror reflection of 2016 when he goes to these rallies when, in fact, the facts are grim and grizzly. america is number one, ladies and gentlemen, we're number one in the number of infections from the disease and we're number one in the number of deaths from the disease thus far. the disease is not going away. the virus is not going away. it's been handled terribly incompetent by guess who? the man standing in front of those rallies, donald j. trump. and he can't deal with it. and, again, i agree with claire. think he knows he's losing and has to be really out of it not to know that. so this is what he's left with. a pile of delusion, fantasy, and the hope that what he's looking

at in johnstown, pennsylvania, last night, that he can recreate 2016. it doesn't look like he can. >> michael steele, what happened to this vaccine that's going to be miraculously appearing by november or december? i mean, again, i think the drug makers are trying to say, whoa, whoa, back up. we don't want to be responsible for something that kills somebody. and that's unrealistic. this president is the wizard of oz. and yet, i just want to be clear, at i believe it was the sanford rally i had on the air thought maybe a thousand people were there, it turned out there were 7,000 people there. i'm, number one, really worried about those people and their families and their health. but, number two, where is this information getting to people where they feel that they can show up at these rallies and they're safe and everything that joe biden and dr. fauci and medical experts, dr. dave

campbell, dr. scott gottlieb, everything that they're saying is a lie? because my worry is their news sources at this point are fox and facebook. and if you do just that, you don't think there's a pandemic going on. >> well, a couple of things. one, their news source, yes, while it's fox and primarily, it's the president at the end of the day. they watch his actions, they listen -- >> fox and facebook. >> -- to his words, yeah, and they try to connect through those portals, facebook, fox. but he, at the end of the day, the key player here. they take their lead off of him. if he comes out and says i had the disease, i feel 20 years young they're is great, you know, and then he's like, how many of you had it? yeah, you're the people i want to talk to. and they're out there, yeah, i had covid-19. you know, what do you do with

that? i mean, i appreciate your sentiment that you're worried about these folks. i'm not worried about them. i mean, after eight months of information and facts and medical findings regarding covid-19, you still want to go stand in a crowd like that with no mask? good luck, that's on you. you know, the only thing i regret is the cost that we're going to have to bear in the health care system because you are taking your own life and those around you at risk and you don't seem to care about it. so that's -- but donald trump is okay with that. and so, you know, i don't know how we get around that curve. if he's okay with it and his supporters are okay with it, then the rest of us has to decide whether or not we're okay with it. and that's what this election is about. which is why the president doesn't want to talk about covid-19, the real effects of covid-19, he wants to dismiss it as a one-off, because he knows what the underlying truth is doing to his campaign and has

done. his campaign -- you have two campaigns right now, mika, donald trump's campaign for re-election and you have his official campaign's effort at re-election. and they're going in two very different directions. >> okay. mika, i want to jump in here with breaking news just announced by nbc. tomorrow night 8:00 eastern on nbc, msnbc, and all the nbc universal platforms, prurp u president trump will hold a live town hall hosted by savannah guthrie. remember tomorrow was supposed to be the night of the second debate. joe biden is doing his own town hall. savannah guthrie will host a town hall well president trump. jonathan lemire, there's more news in here that's significant which i can report, it's not a white house test. the national institutes of health oversaw and conducted its own test and analysis of president trump in order so that

this event could take place. they found with a high degree of confidence that president trump is not transmitting the virus. so the nih led by dr. anthony fauci has conducted and independent pcr test and found what it says a high degree of confidence that the president is not transmitting the virus, therefore, clearing him for this one-hour nbc town hall tomorrow night with savannah guthrie. >> well, let's start there, willie. that's significant in itself that an independent outside test was conducted and says the president is most likely not contagious because, of course, the information we've gotten from the white house and their doctors has been at times hard to believe. they've had a real credibility crisis throughout this moment since the president's diagnosis that he, indeed, had contracted cokrid v covid-19. you're right, tomorrow night was supposed to be the second presidential debate. the two men, biden and trump were to square off after their

very contentious first one. let's reflect quickly on the chronology here that after the president's diagnosis, the debate commission said what this debate would be held remotely, it would be a virltu virtual debate. the trump campaign blew that up and said he wouldn't participate. and then later they said let's just postpone them a week. let's have one on the 22nd and the 20 ninebling9 29th. the biden campaign said no. but this was a missed opportunity. they have been pointing fingers at each other saying this was a mistake, they have you hshould the virtual debate. but this will be an interesting moment for both candidates. the town hall format is one that joe biden has compelled in during this year, during the primaries and he had one recently a few weeks ago on nbc. there's a little expectation he will do well there again tomorrow.

while the president of course, he had one on another network a few weeks ago and faced some tough questions and was thrown off his game at times and seemed to not really listen and respond to the voters. it's not necessarily a format where he does particularly well. but it will be a bright spotlight on both men and sort of an opening act for their final debate which we still hope and think will happen next week. >> so, mika, a couple more details to add in here. this will be held outdoors tomorrow night at the art museum in miami, in accord waance with guidelines of health officials down there. they will be 12 feet apart, the audience will be social distanced, required to wear face masks on premises, answer way questionnaire, have a temperature check. so official nbc news and the white house taking every precaution to make sure we can pull off this event safely again tomorrow night at 8:00 eastern. >> that's great news. that's great news that the nih has gotten a negative test from the president, but here are the

questions that come out of it from my point of view. i'm looking at the september 26 rose garden event where a lot of people got sick. also looking at the debate. the presidential debate on september 29th. i want to know when the president first tested positive, and if he indeed went to that presidential debate knowing that he was positive with the coronavirus. that -- that question has not been answered. it has been repeatedly asked. we now know that he is not shedding the virus, so the question for doctors and scientists moving on, but really the question for the white house doctor and the hospital that treated him that has these answers but for some reason would not give them to us, is whether or not this president was shedding the virus during the debate. and, whether or not he was knowingly doing so. because he showed up late to that debate and then, you know, did the old gentleman's honor saying, well, yeah, yeah, i'm negative, he never got tested

that day. he was supposed to be. the cleveland clinic i guess let it go by because he showed up late. wouldn't have done that. especially given how he looked that night and how he performed. we are all concerned that he was sick that night and showed up at the debate sick with his family in the audience not wearing masks. peter baker, are these legitimate questions given what we know about the coronavirus, what we know about the time span of the virus, and the time span of being contagious and then finally not shedding the virus, we've got pretty good numbers on how long this lasts in a corona patient. >> right. i think it's a very legitimate question and this is a white house that either doesn't want to know itself or doesn't want us to know. some of these answers it knows already. when he was tested positive for the first time, as you say, when was he tested negative for the last time. what were the -- what did the scans show of his lungs? is there any long term damage done to that?

they said they had expected results. well, you could expect a lot of things. that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no damage but they won't tell us. and think you're right, they're not doing the kind of contact tracing you would have thought they would have done off of that september 26th event in the rose garden. people who were there that day never got phone calls from the white house saying who were you in contact with? where could this have come from? there are so many unanswered questions and that's a white house that doesn't want to have them answered because they don't want to focus on this. they want to pretend what it doesn't happen. except it did happen and president trump is simply superman and everything is fine. remember we also don't really know the effect of the drugs he was put on. he was put on a combination of drugs that very few people, if any where are have actually been put on in combination to this date because he was able to access the most experimental, most, you know, cutting edge therapies that are available as well as these steroids. obviously there's some reason to ask what kind of effect it had. at one point our colleagues reported in the "new york times"

that he was so pumped up by the time he was ready to leave the hospital he wanted to wear a superman shirt under his dress shirt and rip it off in front of the cameras to show how good he felt. >> my god. >> he just last night in the clip he showed said he felt like superman. he wanted to demonstrate that in a pretty extraordinary way. and i think that, you know, people have asked the question about where he's at at this point. >> the superman story is just pitiful. i think the part of his departure from the hospital that was, perhaps, most insulting to the american people was when he did a video bellowing at the camera to not let the coronavirus dominate you when 217,000 people have been more than dominated by the coronavirus. they're dead. and their families are mourning a death that they could not even mourn with the person who was dying, that they couldn't even say good-bye. that they couldn't even have access to that person.

that the person died a lonely, awful death and he's telling the american people to not let it dominate you. you know there are president is such a showboater, claire mccaskill, and alongside the fact that this has been a disastrous response to the coronavirus since it first came here and he lied to the american people about just how bad it was going to be. he didn't give information. he gave terrible information. he prescribed bleached and hydroxychloroquine. but having said that, we're in a health emergency right now. and shouldn't the american people know when he first tested positive, especially since he has exposed the entire top level of the government and the supreme court to this virus? isn't there a way congress can

find out when he first tested positive? >> well, probably not because it would involve subpoenas and that would take a long time as one reform that needs to happen that you get a rocket docket for congressional subpoenas when there is a president that is at large basically ignoring every attempt to get information out of an administration. but here's the thing. he is showing his disdain for the one thing that we all know helps keep people from dying. and that is masks. day after day in many, many ways he has sent the strongest signal possible to the american people don't wear a mask. and we know from every expert that that is the best way to prevent the spread of this disease and then subsequent death. so it's so ironic to me that, you know, we're going to have dueling town halls tomorrow night. but make no mistake about it,

the safety that people will see with the town hall with donald trump is not because donald trump wants everyone to test and have masks, it's because nbc's insisting on it. this is not -- donald trump wouldn't care if anybody was -- look at last night. and the pollsters now, i think what they ought do is go out to all these early voting states and count the people in line masks versus no masks and i'm willing to bet that the people wearing masks are all there waiting for hours if they have to to vote against donald trump. and the people with masks are part of that -- excuse me, the people without masks are the people that you saw last night at that rally that have bought with this guy is selling, and that is somehow masks make you less manly or less american. which is patently ridiculous. >> claire, thank you. and still ahead on "morning joe," new york governor andrew cuomo joins us with a look at his state's ongoing to fight against coronavirus and what should be done to protect

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welcome back to "morning joe." a live scene of times square. still hard to get used to seven months. that's rush in our new york city. joining us now democrat ib governor andrew kum mov new york. the author of the new book, american crisis, leadership lessons from the covid-19 pandemic. good morning, it's good to see you again. candidly you and i just had this conversation two days ago on the today show so i'm going to spread the ball around a little bit here. but i want to ask you for the benefit of our audience where do you think we are in the state of new york, specifically in new york city. hospitalizations are up. there's been this looming threat we've heard about from public health experts at the fall and especially the winter and the confluence with flu season is going to be dangerous again. how are you bracing?

what have you learned from the first go at this that will get you ready for this winter? >> thank you. good morning. welcome to the new normal, okay. i think until we have a vaccine and until the vaccine is fully administered, this is what wur going you're going to see probable for the next year, year and a half. the virus is going to stay. the virus is going to flare up in places. and what states have to do, because the federal government is doing nothing, we have to develop a sophisticated capacity to find those very small, we call them mini clusters, where the cases are flaring up and immediately attack them. what we're doing in new york is in some ways opposite of what other states are doing. other states are reducing their testing, they're in a denial mode. we're increasing our testing and our sophistication. so when you find just a mini

cluster of cases, run and attack it. right now our state infection rate is about 1%. which is one of the lowest on the globe, frankly. but we're very good at finding these mini clusters and attacking them. right now we have them in some orthodoxed jewish communities for a certain set of circumstances and we're attacking them where they. but this will be the next year. >> governor cuomo, the book is leadership lessons during this pandemic. and i'm just curious what you learned in terms of the art of the deal in the pandemic age in terms of working with this white house. because in the book you talk about mark meadows linking hospital funding to sharing the test results on how hi hydroxychloroquine treated

covid-19. what was that conversation like? >> i think, mika, what we've learned and we see it over and over and over, because this is really a one-trick pony this president and a one-trick administration. first of all, there has been a denial of this virus since day one and this recent manifestation is more of the same. and the art of the deal is leverage, right? that's what trump was about. he's a marketing man and he leverages as a negotiating tactic. he sis a marketing man who becae president because he played the division and the alienation that existed in america. and he made it worse. he doesn't create anything, he reads the marketplace and he reacts. he saw the polarization. he saw the division. he saw the anger and he played to it, marketed it, became president. and then the art of the deal,

his book on real estate, it's leverage. they leverage every situation. >> but what did mark meadows say? you're saying mark meadows linked hospital funding to sharing test results on hydroxychloroquine. was that just to get the president's, you know, favorite drug which he never took when he was sick, by the way, according to his doctors? i mean, what do you know about what that conversation was like? >> yeah, this was at the time of the first hydroxychloroquine scam. they believed in it, the fda was test it, the fda was using new york hospitals because when he such a high caseload. they wanted the results from the new york hospitals quickly. the new york hospitals were in the middle of this protocol that they were doing their testing with the fda. mr. meadows effectively said, we want the results, we want them fast and we are supposed to be giving out hospital funding

pursuant to the c.a.r.e.s. act. and basically said we're not going to send it to new york if we don't get the test results. but, they had done it to me on everything. they did it to me with the trusted traveler program where it was pure extortion. they wanted the list of undocumented driver's licenses and they penalized the state because of it. when i said new york state is going to set up a committee to test the vaccine, he said, i'll put you at the end of the list. it's leverage. it's extortion. >> and what deals did you -- what deals did you -- did you give him the test results? what did they get out of this? did they extort? >> no. i said in words i don't want to repeat to you what i said to mr. meadows, but i said that doesn't work with me in new york. the fda will get the test results when they get them.

by the way, had they got the test results, they totally disproved that hydroxychloroquine worked. i mean, it was one of the greatest charades. and one of the dumbest charades. why would they have put such capital on hydroxychloroquine unless they knew it worked? and then it turned out to be a total failure. so, no, it's never worked. and it's one of the reasons i'm so, frankly, outraged at this white house. >> now, the book is leadership lessons from the covid-19 pandemic. my other question to you, governor, is why release this now? because we're in the middle of it. it's not over yet. >> yeah. that's exactly why, mika. because, you know, we talk about it today like we're still surprised at how this white house is acting. we are in the middle of it. it is halftime and we are in the

locker room and we do have to understand what happened in the first half. because we have to go out and play a whole second half now. ly the literally you want to say it's a year or more, a year and a half or more and we have to understand what has happened. because we can't keep going on like this. we just can't. you can't lose another 217,000 people. so we have to understand what happened in the first half so we don't do it again, frankly. >> governor, jonathan lemire has the next question. jonathan. >> governor, good morning. i wanted to ask you two things with the pandemic. first, you mentioned the outbreaks that you've seen in orthodoxed jewish communities in brooklyn and queens and where there's been real resistance to mask wearing and social distancing. we've seen the videos. it's almost more like clashes with police there. if you could talk a little bit more about what you're seeing and what sort of enforcement needs to be done in those

neighborhoods. and secondly there's been a criticism from the early days of the pandemic about the state policy that sent patients who had been infected back into nursing homes, certainly the president has been extremely critical of that position. could you walk through your thinking as to why that happened and would you do so again if, indeed, we saw another outbreak now? >> yeah. two things. going forward, what has to happen now, i believe, is the state has to be increase its testing capacity, increase its sophistication, because you're going to find pockets. and when you find a pocket, one pocket is very dangerous. one person can create dozens of cases, okay. and we see them once in a while in a bar, in a labor day party, at a sweet 16 party we had one. and we now have one in the orthodoxed jewish community which brings a whole different particular set of circumstances, right? and i worked very closely with

the orthodoxed community for many years and i get the culture, et cetera. but, i also get the danger of this virus and the public health laws, the public health law and as difficult as it is, we're going to enforce the law because we have to stamp out every little cluster. in terms of what the president has said about nursing homes, look, the -- their attack on democratic governors and democratic states on covid, their counterattack when everybody pointed out that this is a federal government that walked away from a national crisis and somehow delegated it to 50 states, i don't even know how you do that. if you had -- were at war would you delegate it to 50 states? but, their criticism was, well, people in nursing homes died. yes, people in nursing homes died and they attacked me and all the other democratic governors with that. we know that. this virus attacks the old and the weak. we introduced -- we were

introduced to the virus in seattle, washington, when it attacked in a nursing home. and, yes, a large number of seniors in nursing homes passed away. in new york state, when you look at the percentage of deaths in nursing homes, we're 46 out of 50 states. 46 out of 50 states. so, by percentage our loss was much, much less than other states. we've done a full study of it, the virus came into nursing homes from the staff. this is before we knew there was asymptomatic spread, before we had the testing capacity. but we always had additional beds for covid-positive people. weapon had emergency hospital beds, additional hospital capacity. we never forced any nursing home to take them. so -- that's just not true. >> just to follow on that, though, at the time in march absolutely there were -- the

idea that the hospitals were going to be full was a real one, you wanted to free up beds. but to jonathan's question now, you do a lot of reflecting in this book and you admit to to some mistakes, maybe we should have done masking sooner and shut things down earlier, that's all early march fog of war stuff and we get that. but with the benefit of hindsight, would you not have issued that march 25th directive to send covid positive patients back to nursing homes and will you do it again if this comes up? >> yeah. willie, i thiet ghate to get te with you but sometimes sometimes these things are technical. there was never a directive that said we will send covid positive people back to nursing you homes. the directive which was modeled on the federal directive said you cannot discriminate. but the state law clearly says a nursing home can't accept the person unless they can treat them. having said that, would my health department have followed the federal guidance? obviously not knowing the

political issue it was going create. but there was no issue in reality is what i'm saying. because we never did have a scarcity of it beds. we always had additional hospital beds and emergency beds. so no nursing home was forced to take someone. we never got there. other states are there today, interestingly enough. and they're republican states and that's why the president has stopped saying it. >> i mentioned that we talked a couple days ago on the today show about in question of nursing homes, and i heard it from a couple people, many of whom like you and think you did a good job generally but who were upset by the way you've talked about this nursing home issue and pushed off responsibility to other people. what do you say to those families who believe that the death of their loved one was preventable? >> one of the things i find reprehensible about it, willie, is the president did create that

impressing, whi impression. which is cruel. it's cruel to say that families who lost people in nursing homes saying this could have been prevented by a different government policy. it makes their pain worse. it is not true. if you want to rewind all the tape, we should have been testing staff before they walked into a nursing home. that is true. and that's back in march when we didn't have any tests. we were told asymptomatic spread was impossible. that you had to have a symptom. so the nursing homeworkers without symptoms were allowed in. that was bad information that we received. that's how you would have really prevented it. but, for the president to create a narrative which is factually untrue, which causes pain, i understand his political reason. i mean, he needs some counterattack on covid. but it's just -- it's untrue and

it's mean. >> i mean, your department of health wrote the march 25th advisory, to just to put a fine point on it, do you take any responsibility for the 6,600 deaths in nursing homes in the state of new york? >> look, i take responsibility for every death in the state of new york. i'm governor of the state. i take responsibility for every death. i don't care, frankly, if -- if it's my fault, not my fault from it's the federal government, if it's god that did it, i'm responsible, i'm in charge, and i've never run away from that. but i also want to make sure we have facts here, willie. and we do learn the lesson because we're only at halftime and we have to do it over again. and we do have to understand that this is a virus that attacked new york, that was not a china virus, willie, it was a european virus. it came from italy and france

and spain and this federal government was asleep at the switch and never told us and the virus came for two months before they ever gave us notice. their whole international watchdog cdc collapsed. we had mers, when he sars, and then we have covid and they act as if it's the first time of it happened that it descended from the heavens when literally it's the same play that happened with mers and sars and ebola. so, yeah, let's -- let's be honest about the lessons so it doesn't happen again and let's be honest about the lessons so we don't have another 217,000 people die while we're listening to the hysterical politics of a man desperate to remain in office. >> governor, mike barnicle has a question for you. mike. >> governor, to your point about the past, about this spring, everything that new york and the rest of the country went through but specifically new york city, there are people with lingering memories that might never go

away of nights spent listening to helicopters and sirens and the death toll continually racking up. and there are eruption and pockets of the virus that are going to pop up as we've become colder through the fall, the virus will grow, it's consistent. so, i think a lot of people want to know specifically in new york city who is going to be in charge in new york city in controlling the virus, of making sure supplies are available and making sure that everything is as consistent as possible, is it going to be you or is it going to be bill de blasio? >> yeah. what we did here, mike, which was, frankly, smart. other states did not do it and i think they paid the price. we passed a law very early on that said the state is in charge of everything, period. you need a statewide response. you can't handle this virus city by city or county by county. you can't handle this virus in new york city different than westchester, different than

rockland, different than albany. the law says the state is responsible for everything. that's why when the question was posed to me who's responsible, i'm responsible. and that's the way it should be. the real template should have been the federal government was responsible. i believe that. this was a national pandemic. when it's national, it triggers the federal government. when i was in the federal government and there was a regional situation, the federal government took control. but, in the absence of a federal government, the state steps in, it's a statewide plan. the mayor, county executive, has no legal authority in this. now, they talk a lot, mike, because that's what politicians do, right? and every local politicians will talk about what they think. but it's all state authority. >> all right. the new book is american crisis leadership lessons from the covid-19 pandemic.

governor andrew cuomo, thank you so much for being on this morning. >> thank you. and early voting is also under way in illinois. the state board of elections has more than 600,000 people have cast ballots either in person or by mail. joining us now, republican candidate for illinois's 14th congressional district, jim ober weiss. he's challenging incumbent democrat laura underwood. and we appreciate you coming on this morning. first of all, if you could share with me when you're hearing from constituents in the district that you would like to represent, how they are feeling about the handling of the coronavirus pandemic and how is the district fairing in the coronavirus pandemic right now? >> i've been actually out knocking on doors for about two months now, we're finding people certainly have some concern about the virus, but i think

that most people think that this is something we have to suffer through together. that we're gradually working through and hopefully we'll have a vaccine fairly soon. what's been very interesting to me as i have talked to people, and by the way, i'm wearing a mask and standing back six feet from the door when people come to the door. but it's very interesting. the first question i ask, of course, will you support me for u.s. congress? and we're getting a very rof overwhelming yes to that from most people. the second question i ask is what do you think about the presidential race? and that's been interesting because i get strong supporters who think he's the greatest president ever, but lots of other people who don't like the way the office has operated, don't like the personality of the president. and it seems that most people are either going to go out to vote for the president or against the president. virtually nobody seems to like joe biden. nobody's going out to vote for joe biden, it's either for trump or against trump, which is a little different than most

presidential elections. >> and so just picking up on your point that this is something we need suffer through together on the coronavirus, i appreciate that you're practicing social distancing, wearing a mask. clearly you believe that that could help in prevention. how do you speak to -- to voters about this, especially since there is some controversy and also confusion from the president himself about masks and about exactly how to handle this pandemic? how would you handle it especially given the fact that you know how your voters feeling about it and you know about the deaths that are happening in your district. would you urge people to practice extremely strict social distancing and what else? >> well, look, my oldest daughter is a nurse practice

anythinger practitioner who's worked in emergency rooms for 20, 30 years and she pays a lot of attention to the science on this issue and i do tend to listen to what she has to say. i believe that after looking at some of the evidence that masks do provide some protection both for the wearer and for others in the room. if you're indoors and in close contact for a prolonged period of time with other people, i think it's certainly wise to wear a mask and helpful to everybody. however, realistically when you're outdoors and you're five or six feet from people, moving around, it seems to me there is little need to wear a mask under those circumstances. so, i guess maybe you consider that somewhere middle of the road. they have a place. i think it should be up to local authorities to decide what is important. i don't think there should be a national mask program where everybody has to wear a mask when they walk out. to me it's a joke when people are riding bicycles or jogging wearing a mask. that, to me, makes no sense whatsoever. >> mike barnicle.

>> mr. oberweis, one quick question. what is the deal with the mask? what do you have gets against masks? >> i don't have anything against them,s a just when in close contact indoors, i wear one. i don't think it does any good -- >> you make fun of people who wear them. but you are making fun of people who wear them and they wear them because they don't want to infect anyone else. why make fun of them? >> no, on the contrary. i am not making fun of anybody. i think it's unnecessary when you are out. i think it's strange people wear one when bicycling or jogging outdoors. no sense. no need. >> all right. if you were in the house of representatives right now, would you vote for the $2.5 trillion package, the add on for the c.a.r.e.s. act? >> look, i think the house should be looking at how do we help those who are really in need. how do we protect businesses that have been hurt by this pandemic.

how do we help those employees who are in need. but to use this pandemic as an excuse to throw in lots of unneeded, unrelated programs as nancy pelosi wants to do is absolutely wrong. >> like what programs are unneeded and related that are in that bill? >> well, look, i am not going to go through a whole list, but i think you are well aware that nancy pelosi would like to use this as an excuse to pass some of her favorite legislation. why don't we do stand alone things? look at what is important, what is needed and pass those. and i think the president has suggested that. >> michael steele. >> hey, jim. thank you for making the run. i appreciate you getting out there on the trail like that. how have you, in light of the questioning from my colleagues on coronavirus and what you would do in congress, how do you see yourself going into this

congress with a nancy pelosi as speaker and potentially with democrats controlling the senate with or without president trump in the white house, how do you see yourself as a member of congress? do you find that it's more important for you to represent your district or represent the interest of, let's say, if president trump is in the white house, the interest of the president? and how do voters respond to that? what's their expectation of you in light of coronavirus and all of the things that we are dealing with, particularly on matters of race. is that an issue in your district that you, as a member of congress, would be willing to step into and have a conversation with your district about? >> well, look, i believe that -- and i served in the illinois senate for the last almost eight years. i constantly try to remind my

fellow colleagues vote yes on a bill if you think it's a good bill, vote no if you think it's a bad bill regardless of which party is sponsoring that bill. unfortunately, that doesn't always happen in the illinois senate. i will continue to vote what i think is good in the interest of our country, good in the interest of our state, and good in the interest of our district. that's why i believe so strongly in term limits. when we have term limited legislators, they tend to vote in ways they believe are good for the country, state and district. when you have career politicians they vote in ways they believe are good for their own re-election and you get different legislation because of that. one of the issues in our district has been this whole idea of protesting and demonstrating. my opponent made the statement that looting and rioting is a beautiful form of protest. when you destroy other people's businesses, their jobz and livelihoods, that's not a

beautiful form of protest. when any of us see something wrong we have a right to demonstrate peacefully. that's what martin luther king did. believe it or not i walked down the streets in michigan with cory brooks to demonstrate the virus against the city of chicago. we didn't steal anything, throw molotov cocktails at businesses. my opponent thinks that's okay. that shouldn't be a republican or democrat issue. we should say absolutely not, that should not be allowed to happen and we need to stop it. >> i am not sure that's exactly what she says, but we'll leave it there. jim oberweis, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. claire mchaskell looking ahead to the hearings today for supreme court nominee amy coney barrett. what are you going to be looking for? >> i am going to watch the democrats once again showing incredible discipline. i referenced what this is about is finding new votes.

the math is cruel here. they do not have the votes to stop her confirmation but they have a platform to calmly and respectfully point out that on every issue that she is weighed in on hin her career, gun safet, the aca, whether it's corporate money in politics, voting rights, and roe v. wade, she is out of step with most americans. and she represents what the republican party has in their platform. so i see them, once again, using this as an opportunity to pull people to our -- to the democratic side on november the 3rd. they have been really doing a good job with it so far. >> claire mchaskell, thank you so much. and kasie hunt will join us from capitol hill with her latest reporting coming up. "morning joe" will be right back.

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move an election day? >> actually, i haven't looked into that question under the constitution. >> it says federal election day is the tuesday after the first monday in november. so if you take that as correct statute, is there any executive action -- >> i have never been asked the question before. i never looked into it. >> does the constitution give the president of the united states the authority to unilaterally delay a general election under any circumstances? does federal law? >> well, senator, if that question ever came before me, i would need to hear arguments from the litigants and read briefs and consult with my law clerks and talk it my colleagues and go through the opinion-writing process. >> really? okay. well, as of right now at least, the presidential election is 20

days away. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, october 14th. joe has the morning off, but along with willie and me we have former chair of the republican national committee and senior advisor to the lincoln project, michael steele. white house reporter for "the associated press" jonathan lamire. professor at princeton university and author of "begin again," and republican strategist and senior advisor at the lincoln project susan delpursio is with us. and we will get to that answer or rather non-answer in a moment from supreme court nominee amy coney barrett on the question of a president's ability to delay the election and the transfer of power. it was kind of a concerning moment for democrats yesterday and a lot of conservatives. we will talk to michael steele and susan about that and read actually what the constitution

says. they were sure that ag barr and judge barrett are quite aware of. i am going to double down and say i know they were aware of it. willie, a defiant president holds another packed campaign rally despite concerns that we could be in the midst of a second wave of covid. we are in the midst of a global pandemic. >> yep, another night, another big crowded maskless rally as if this whole pandemic is not taking place. covid-19 cases continue to rise nationwide with infections spreading rapidly in the midwest. states like indiana, minnesota, north dakota setting new average, new average highs for the past eight days. saturday more than 20 states have reported new highs in their seven-day average of case counts, and more than half of those states set records yesterday. covid-19 hospitalizations hit their highest level in nearly six weeks. meanwhile, the wife of president trump's labor secretary, eugene

scalia, has tested positive for coronavirus. a statement from the department last night said she has, quote, mild symptoms but is doing well. secretary scalia tested negative friday night. the agency said for the time being the secretary will work from home. why is this significant? secretary scalia and his wife attended that rose garden ceremony last month where president trump officially nominated judge amy coney barrett to fill the supreme court vacancy. as of yesterday evening, nbc news has confirmed 27 members of the trump administration campaign officials and contacts have recently tested positive for coronavirus. of these, at least 14 were in attendance at the september 26th rose garden event for judge barrett. mika. >> just to frame all that, the white house is in the middle of its own outbreak. with all of that as a back trop, the president continues to hold packed campaign rallies with

people squished together when they don't need to be. last night's rally in southwest pennsylvania, and once again there was no social distancing and few people were wearing masks, and all of these people are being put in danger by the trump campaign. even as the virus surges, the president claimed again that the u.s. is, quote, rounding the turn. >> we have the vaccines are coming soon. the therapeutics and, frankly, the cure. all i know is i took something, whatever the hell it was, i felt good very quickly. i don't know what it was. antibodies. antibodies. i don't know. i took it, i said i felt like superman. i said let me at them. to everyone fighting to recover from the virus, i feel your pain because i felt your pain and we will beat this virus together and for those -- who has had it

here? who's had it? a lot of people. a lot of people. you are the people i want to say hello to because you are right now immune. you're right now immune. or they say that. you know, they hate to admit it because i had it. in the old days they said, well, if you have it, you are immune for life, right? once i got it they give you four months, you know? anybody else but me, you are immune for life. >> that's not true. scientists are looking at cases that are recurring on people who have already had it. but number two, more importantly, jonathan lamire, you see a narrative emerging out of the president's mouth and perhaps even from this white house, herd immunity, that's maybe the way they want to go with this, which would potentially mean many more deaths. >> mika, the defining moments from last night show again how this president is a striking disconnect interest reality in

terms of the coronavirus in two different ways. first of all, his own condition. there is very little that he did to address his own situation last night except for what you just played where he talked about receiving an antibody treatment for now is not available to most of the public. he received that because he was receiving the best care as president at walter reed medical center. he talked about being immune. scientists are not convinced that's the case for him or anyone else. he suggested he was well enough that he would plunge into the audience and kiss everyone there as proof he wasn't contagious anymore. i would strongly, and i think medical experts would back me up on this, not to do that. secondly, he is framing it as the nation having turned the corner when that's not the case. we are seeing cases across the nation surge. we are seeing states have their highest daily totals in months. yet none of that factors into their framing which is remarkably unchanged since the

president's diagnosis ten or so days ago. this rally could have taken place a month ago or two months ago in terms of how the president is addressing the virus. still not being honest about where the nation is in terms of handling it. in fact, in many places it's getting worse. there are thousands of people there last night, mika, packed in closely together, not many in masks. some, as you could see in the video clip behind him, because those are handed out for the purposes of the tv footage. but very little elsewhere. but the president's campaign has made a decision to plunge forward, blinders on, and act again like the nation incorrectly is trying to -- the president, they think is running out of time. it should be noted as a final point, his first two days of resuming his time on the campaign trail, he visited the two most important states on the map, florida and pennsylvania. two states he probably can't win without. but today he has to go it iowa, a state he won handily in 2016, but he is forced to play defense

there because of the pressure joe biden is putting on all across the map. the president is in a real mind. >> let's flesh out the weak even further, states he is playing defense. iowa today. north carolina tomorrow. these are the president's trips this week. and then on friday he will be in florida and georgia before spending the weekend on saturday in michigan and wisconsin. so how is the trump campaign looking at the map right now? i think they don't want to be in a position to go to georgia two and a half weeks before the election and fight for what has now become a toss-up. >> they are in an extraordinarily difficult spot. let's be clear. they don't have anywhere near the financial resources that the biden campaign does. the biden campaign is swamping them on the airwaves in terms of advertisements and outside groups as well. the trump campaign has pulled down ads in a number of states they are saying, like in ohio, because they are confident they don't need them. polls suggest otherwise and point to perhaps a lack of

finances on their part. they had in difficult balancing act. their path seems to be shrinking by the way. some states they can't win without, florida chief among them. but as deficits grow in places like michigan and wisconsin they are betting big on pennsylvania where he was yesterday and where he will be several more times before november 3rd. at the same time, this points to a campaign in trouble. it's one thing to put in a final push in these battleground states. that's where you want to be. that's what campaigns do in the final three weeks. to also play defense in states where he won with ease in 2016, you said it, willie, georgia later this week. when was the last time a president, a republican president or frankly any republican candidate went to zwrorgz in the last welcocouple weeks? iowa he will have to do the next couple of days. also they are worried about where the polls stand in texas. even if he ends up hanging on to these states, the fact that he has to spend time and money

there in the final weeks, that shows a campaign in trouble. it's every day he spends in, say, georgia is a day he can't spend in pennsylvania. >> coming up, to jonathan's point, there is new polling from north carolina that may explain why president trump is heading there tomorrow. plus, just days after directly appealing to senior voters, president trump mocks joe biden's age and insults all of those americans out there who depend on assisted living facilities. how that's going to go over in florida. "morning joe" is back in a moment. i'm a conservative,

want conservative judges on the court. this may make you feel better, but i really don't care. if an opening comes in the last year of president trump's term and the primary process has started we'll wait to the next election. i want you to use my words against me. you're on the record. yeah, hold the tape. lindsey must go and the lincoln project are responsible for the content of this ad. go go go ♪ go go go go on a real vacation. visit

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learned a second languageument applied to college applied for a loan started a business started a blog shared a picture shared a moment turn your wish list into a checklist, with internet essentials from comcast. when you're connected, you're ready for anything. in the state of north carolina, why is the president going there tomorrow? here's why. he is in a dead heat. that's within the margin of error. a monmouth university poll, joe biden up four points. that's a tie if you consider that the margin of error. michael steele, let's talk about who joe biden is talking to right now in the state of florida and, more broadly, and

how president trump is addressing that same group. i am talking about seniors. joe biden directly appealing to senior voters at an event in florida yesterday as the president's support among the 65 plus age group has continued to decline despite the president's recent efforts to win them over. >> you are losing precious time with your loved ones, he has been stuck in a sand trap on one of his golf courses. and when he does decide to lift a finger, it isn't to help you. you worked hardier whole life. contributing to society, building a family, building the country, serving america. you deserve security. you deserve respect and peace of mind. but you are not getting it. and by the way, if this wasn't so bizarre, you'd think, you know, if i tried to make a movie talking about something like this in america, you would think i was making it up. because donald trump is simple. not a joke. you're expendable. you're forgettable.

you're virtually nobody. that's how he sees seniors. careless, arrogant, reckless covid-19 response has caused one of the worst tragedies in american history. the only senior that donald trump cares about, the only senior is senior donald trump. >> so, compare that appeal, michael, to senior voters to this tweet by president trump yesterday. a photoshopped picture of joe biden inserted into a scene presumably from an assisted-living facility from senior citizens with an edited biden logo saying biden for resident. it comes at three different polls found the president at a wide disadvantage among voters aged 65 and older. it's an age group that trump won by nine points in 2016. michael steele, to build on willie's point, president trump is defying his own reality.

as if there is something wrong with being a senior citizen, and by the way, senior citizens vote avidly. they are interested in this election. they are also interested in their health. >> it is a core con stitch wensy of the republican and has been for a generation now, and that's how we have put together the kinds of wins that have allowed us to take the house in 2010, for example. a lot of that was on the back of and help from seniors around the country, but particularly in places like florida. so you have, mika and willie, a contrast not just in style, but in the substance of the conversation. one in which you had joe biden actually connecting with seniors in a way that, you know, says, hey, i get where you are at this stage in your life, but i also understand how important you are to what we need to get done in

order to turn the country around versus what you saw from the president, not just that mocking tweet, but his own rhetoric on the stage where he talks about himself. they say, i'm a senior, but then i don't feel like it, i don't act like it. and so that's again a put-down. it's not a recognition of what these men and women represent not just to the base of the republican party, but to the country as a whole. and the role that they play in setting the direction and have played in setting the direction. so, you know, the president feels -- the one thing i think joe biden said indirectly, which i'll say directly, the president takes these voters for granted. he is making assumptions about 2016 in 2020. and the fact of the matter is this is a completely different race. not just what the numbers are showing. the dynamics from covid to civil unrest to the flattening of the economy to the concerns that people have, and then his tin ear to all of that represented

by that tweet of him, you know, photoshopped in a wheelchair is the ultimate insult to the men and women who could help him get over the finish line. >> eddie, after 2016 when the president eked out his win in the electoral college and became president, there was some thought he had some understanding of the electorate, he was a political mastermind, figured out how to become the president of the united states by saying the right things to the right group of people. you watch something like that yesterday and added to a long list of puzzling recent moments in terms of getting himself re-elected and you wonder what he is thinking when he posts a picture mocking a senior citizen and mocking senior citizens broadly when they helped propel him to the white house in 2016 and with whom he is getting crushed with right now. >> yeah, i mean, we have seen over and over again over these last three and a half plus years that donald trump's political instincts are really bad, that he really doesn't know how to do

politics. in some ways, what he did was he rolled a search if we play dice, right. he rolled an 11 when it came to 2016. one of the things that we do know is that early voting suggests there is a lot of excitement and enthusiasm among the democratic base. we know not only in terms of the older vote, 65 and older, we are seeing long lines in georgia. we are seeing extraordinarily long lines in texas that has a lot to do with the ineptitude of those, of the secretary of states in those areas, but it's also an indication of just how important this election is to many folks around the country. and so donald trump thinks he's going to repeat 2016, but when we look at the fundamentals on the ground, it is radically different. and so, again, evidence suggests that his political sense is really dull and dim. >> coming up, president trump is now calling on the supreme court to keep his tax records hidden

from new york prosecutors. the latest on that. and a big decision on the u.s. census that could have sweeping repercussions. we will be back with much more "morning joe." ." with two new haunted houses, the screams are just getting started. wear your favorite costumes and the fun never ends. come get your halloween on, happening now at universal orlando resort. when being a fan on a budget gets tough... ...our agents do the legwork,... ...so saving on auto insurance is... easy usaa. what you're made of, we're made for. our most advanced formularonamel repair. easy helps you brush in vital minerals to actively repair and strengthen enamel. so you don't just brush to clean, you brush to build. pronamel intensive enamel repair.

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>> president trump made this plea at his rally last night to suburban women. >> i ask you to do me a favor. suburban women, will you please like me? please. please. i saved your damn neighborhood, okay? the other thing, i don't have that much time to be that nice. i can do it, but i got to go quickly. we don't have time. they want me to be politically correct. oh, yes, let's discuss it, let's talk about it over the next ten years. no, no, no. we saved your -- we saved suburbia in the u.s. >> so, susan delpurse yes, there isio, there is a misunderstanding on donald trump's part that we are at home cleaning the floors and in suburbia and we're afraid of what -- i mean, i don't know how

you could list the ways in which perhaps women who happen to live in the suburbs have been insulted by this man, but you might try. >> yeah. i want to know who donald trump thinks he saved the suburbs from. like from who? who was going to hurt the suburban women that he thinks he can relate it to? he can't. that's why he rallies like it's 2016, but it's not. and those rallies show recklessness. they show that he does not care for other people just like when he spoke to the issue of law and order, he poured fuel on the fire. that's not what suburban or any other voter wants to see interest the president. they want a president who tampers down the situation, who brings public safety. and again these rallies show no regard for public safety. of course it's -- and now with 20 days left to go, those numbers are pretty baked in.

when you are in the 30s, it's hard to dig out of that with women. and i just don't see it happening, frankly. but when he makes those kinds of pleas, that even makes it worse. there is no explaining it. it's desperation. >> except i will say what explains it, is that if you don't plan to win fairly and you have other plans, and that's something that i think a lot of people are watching, even during these supreme court hearings. let's look at some other stories we are following now. eddie mentioned the long voting lines in texas. texas saw a record number of voters for the long lines for the state's first day of early voting. according to the texas tribune, voters in harris county shattered the record on the first day of in-person voting with more than 128,000 ballots cast. election officials say there were minor sporadic machine problems leading to long wait times. willie. >> meanwhile, the supreme court yesterday effectively allowed

the government to stop the census count immediately. the decision blocks a u.s. appeals court order that would have required the administration to continue gathering census information in the field until the end of october . it would increase accuracy after field operations were suspended in march because of the pandemic. but the census bureau said it wanted to stop the count so it could start processing the data to meet a federally mandated december 31st deadline for reporting the results to the president. in a dissenting opinion justice sonya sotomayer says, the harms caused irrelable. they will suffer lasting impact for the next ten years until the next census is con dugged. >> and president trump has renewed his calls on the supreme court to block a subpoena for his tax returns. seeking to appeal their case to the supreme court for the second time in less than a year, trump's lawyers asked yesterday

to delay a ruling that would allow the manhattan district attorney to obtain trump's financial records. in a 38-page emergency application, trump's legal team told the court that a federal district court judge was wrong to rule that the prosecutor had a legal right to subpoena the materials and that an appeals court panel in new york was wrong to uphold that ruling this month. the lawyers argue that, quote, if the president's records are disclosed publicly, then the harm will not only be irrepairable, it will be case mooting. if the supreme court denies the state, it is possible that the manhattan prosecutor could enforce the subpoena and then get a copy of the requested documents before election day, but still outside of public view. coming up, interviews with democratic candidates for u.s. congress in three battleground states, and why their races could help determine the

presidency. "morning joe" is back in a moment. i'm looking for my client. i'm his accountant.

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vote yes on prop 25 to end money bail. does the constitution give the president of the united states the authority to unilaterally delay a general election under any circumstances? does federal law? >> well, senator, if that question ever came before me, i would need to hear arguments from the litigants and read briefs and consult with my law clerks and talk to my colleagues and go through the opinion-writing process. so, you know, if i give o off-the-cuff answers, i would be a legal pundit, and i don't think we want judges to be legal pundits. i think we want judges to approach cases thoughtfully and with an open mind. >> do you believe that every president should make a commitment unequivocally and

resolutely to the peaceful transfer of power? >> well, senator, that seems to me to be pulling me in a little bit into this question of whether the president has said that he would not peacefully leave office. so to the extent that this is a political controversy right now, as a judge i want to stay out of it. >> so that's judge amy coney barrett in yesterday's hearing somewhat equivocating on those answers with good reason because it is a big political issue right now. having said that, she did talk about the history of this country and how it has been an incredible positive thing that every time there has been one, and the people of america who did not get their choice in leaders, the person they voted for accepted the results peacefully. i think she answered the question more than people are giving her credit for, but it still is a question, especially

given this president. judge barrett was also pressed on abortion rights, telling the senate judiciary committee in a landmark roe v. wade case which legalized abortion nationwide shouldn't be cat forized as a superprecedent. >> is roe a super precedent? >> i am answering a lot of questions about roe, which i think indicates roe doesn't fall in that category. >> you said proun is -- i know my time is running out, is a super precedent. that's something the supreme court has not even said, but you have said that. so if you say that, why won't you say that about roe v. wade. >> as richard fallon from harvard says, roe is not a super precedent because calls for the overruling have not ceased. that doesn't mean it should be overruled. it means that it doesn't fall on the small handful of cases like mashry versus madison and brown versus the board that no one

questions anymore. >> judge barrett wouldn't say how she would rule on roe v. wade if she were presented a challenge to the case. >> joining us host of "way too early" kasie hunt. also with us new york university law professor melissa murray. mark barnacle is back as well. melissa, let me start with you as the professor. explain what a super precedent is and what was happening in that hearing. >> so the term super precedent refers to a group of cases that have been repeatedly reaffirmed by the supreme court over different moments of time. so different constituted courts have reaffirmed this precedent and that includes brown v. board of education, which everyone would agree is firmly entrenched. others would say it also includes roe v. wade, which also has been repeatedly reaffirmed by the court and was not

actually very controversial when it was decided in 1973. it's controversial later with some political realignment over questions of reproductive rights. >> kasie, you are covering the hearings that start over 20 minutes from now in the senate judiciary committee. yesterday most republicans i talked to, certainly the white house, believes that judge barrett acquitted herself very well over almost 12 hours of questioning. who could we expect as we look ahead to today? >> i am not hearing anyone make an argument on either side she did not acquit herself well, you know, republicans who have been trying to do this as fast as possible are lucky, frankly, she has done this well to keep them on the timeline that they want to get her confirmed to the bench before election day. she is serving herself well in that regard, i suppose, as well. it's clear she is being very careful both in terms of how she is handling the senators and

deferring to long standing precedent to have these, the judges who are potentially going to be appointed to the court to not say how they would rule on anything. she is also clearly being very careful that she is aware she is talking to an audience of one, that of course is president trump down the street at the white house who is certainly keeping an eye on all of this. i think you are going to see today, you may see follow-up questions on some of the things that did come up in terms of the peaceful transfer of power as well as the delay of the election. i also think you are going to to continue to see a focus on the affordable care act. it's clear that democrats are confidence that their strategy is working. do no harm to joe biden or their chances of taking back the senate. the fact that lindsey graham started the hearing yesterday morning by saying, essentially trying to give judge barrett an opportunity to explain why she is not a threat to the affordable care act, it tells me that that argument is working, it's getting traction.

senator graham talked about his own campaign when he opened the hearing yesterday in a way that suggested he was perhaps frustrated with the effectiveness of the dictioemoc strategy. i would look to see more of that today. >> yeah, an on the democrats' line of questions on the aca, here's how it went yesterday. >> one of president trump's campaign promises in 2015 was that his judicial appointment will do the right thing on obamacare. you can see it right here. and, in fact, judge, just one day after you were nominated, this is like a few weeks ago, he said also on twitter that it would be a big win if the supreme court strikes down the health law. so, judge, my first question, do you think we should take the president at his word when he says his nominee will do the

right thing and overturn the affordable care act? >> senator klobuchar, i can't really speak to what the president has said on twitter. he hasn't said any of that to me, and what i can tell you, as i have told your colleagues earlier today, is that no one has elicited from me any commitment in a case or brought up a commitment in a case. >> vice president pence described chief justice roberts as an, and i am quoting, a disappointment to conservatives because of the obamacare decision. in upholding the aca the chief justice was the one justice appointed by a republican president who went against the political wishes of the party that appointed him. why did you choose to single him out for criticism in that constitutional commentary article? >> well, senator, i was writing about the majority opinion.

and chief justice roberts was the author of the opinion. so i was simply discussing what the five-justice majority adopt ds as its reasoning. i am not here on a mission to destroy the affordable care act. >> prior to your nomination, were you aware of president trump's statements committing to nominate judges who will strike down the affordable care act? and i appreciate a yes-or-no answer, please. >> i want to be very, very careful. i am under oath. as i'm sitting here, i don't recall seeing those statements. let's see. i don't recall seeing or hearing those statements, but i don't really know what context they were in. so i guess i can't really definitively give you a yes-or-no answer. what i would like to say is i don't recall hearing about or seeing such statements. >> okay. mike barnicle, your thoughts? and you can take the next question. >> well, i think my thoughts are probably shared by quite a few

people in the country who watched the hearings, that sis skillful and well prepared witness. professor murray, on that score, given that, judge barrett is very skillful in her presentations and very well prepared, but there is one element that i'm wondering what you thought about, and it is her evasiveness on basic questions like, does the president of the united states have the constitutional authority to postpone an election? which she absolutely refused to answer. what was your take on things like that? simple things like that. >> i thought those were puzzling answers. there was also the question that was asked by, i think, senator klobuchar, whether or not voter intimidation is illegal. it is clearly illegal and she refused to answer that in a straightforward way. i think part of what is going on here is that she is adhering to what she calls the ginsburg rule, which is that you don't

comment on matters that might come before the court, and she is taking a very broad view of that. almost anything under this particular understanding of the ginsburg rule, something that would come before the court. she is dodging and weaving on a lot of this, trying to avoid falling into answers that would allow the democrats more of an opportunity to really press her on her views and how her personal views might impact her judging. >> all right. new york university law professor melissa murray, thank you very much. and nbc's kasie hunt, thank you for your reporting on this. and up next in, in the past few weeks we have discussed a scenario in which donald trump could lose the election, but still remain president. and beating back such an attempt could hinge on three house races. we'll talk to the three democratic candidates who would need to win to keep that scenario from playing out. we'll be right back.

joe biden was raised with middle class values. joe doesn't need to be the center of attention. or see himself on tv. he has always focused on getting the job done. joe led us out of the 2008 recession, and increased health coverage for millions. as president, joe will focus on getting us out of our crises. he'll listen to experts, work across the aisle. and put the american people first. ff pac is responsible for the content of this ad.

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to save you up to 60%. these are all great. and when you get a big deal... ♪ ...you feel like a big deal. ♪ priceline. every trip is a big deal. >> he will be out on the trail and is doing well. thank you. >> all right. barack obama will be hitting the campaign trail soon for his former vice president joe biden, and aide tells nbc news that obama advisors have been working with the biden campaign and

other key campaign committees to draw up a robust campaign schedule for the closing weeks of the campaign. but now back to an election scenario that we have been talking about here on this show that house speaker nancy pelosi has been mobilizing democrats for in recent weeks. the possibility that neither joe biden nor president donald trump will win an outright electoral college victory, which would result in the house intervening. speaker pelosi described it last month right here on "morning joe." >> one of the possibilities that he would declare victory on election night and say the vote by mail doesn't count, i won by those who voted in person. secondly, he would have his allies in states send college folks who say biden wins the state and it's a republican legislature and state and they will say we are sending trump

electors. we take that to court. that takes time. if you win in court, it takes time. if you don't have the electoral college number, the majority by a certain date, representatives voting by state. so he has 26 votes. we have 22. two are even. so it's important for us to make sure, as the constitution says, nobody has a majority in the house, because it's very clear the winner is the person with a majority in the house. we just have to take him down one vote. we'd rather have the 26 ourselves, but we just have to take him down one vote. >> longtime media executive and eder at large at "newsweek," warning about this very scenario and offered a way for democrats to avoid the election playing out in trump's favor this way. tom rodgers joins us again now

along with three congressional candidates in districts that tom says could determine the presidency. for pennsylvania first, dr. christina finello, for michigan's third, hillary scholten and for florida's 16, margaret good. tom, begin with you, if you could get out the chalkboard so to speak and explain clearly how this could play out in trump's favor, if this scenario were to happen. >> well, thanks for having me, mika. well, first order of business, make the voted to big to rig but donald trump made very clear they're going to challenge mail-in ballots and very few believe the new supreme court with just barrett on it is going to step in and stop that and trump actually said ultimately congress will make this decision and as speaker pelosi just laid out, the problem is today if that vote occurred on the current composition of the house, trump would win that vote

26-22. even though the democrats have a major majority in the house today. that is a state-by-state delegation where the number of representatives that are republican versus democrat in each state determines how that state votes. and as a result, when the new congress convenes which is the congress that would have this question before them, if it actually goes this far, under the 12th amendment, the democrats have to flip four states. three of those four states are florida, pennsylvania and michigan, and you have today three prolific women candidates representing each of those states, florida, pennsylvania and michigan, and it only takes one congressional seat pick-up in each of those states to flip those state delegations. so these individual races are absolutely crucial if the democrats are going to have a blue firewall against this trump challenge. so these races are truly of national significance.

>> so let's pull up the three candidates here. christina, hillary and margaret. no pressure at all, ladies! dr. christina finello, what is your campaign running on and how is it going? >> great. thank you so much for having me here today. i'm running in pennsylvania's first district, which is buxton montgomery county in the philadelphia suburbs i have deep roots here, grew up in a working-class family and understand the challenges of are this district, because i've lived it. i have a daughter with pre-existing conditions and still paying off my student loans and we have a congressman who made our lives much harder in this distribute. sided with donald trump on taking away health care, for people with pre-existing conditions. sided with trump on limiting reproductive freedom and sided with trump voting for the trump tax bill. when the gop and trump need him the most, my opponent's by their side. we can win this race. you know, we can bring change to

washington. our district is right to flip. we are one of three districts that hillary clinton won in 2016. it's still held by a republican incumbent and momentum's on our side. just had a poll yesterday showing us you by a point and biden leading by double digits. if we want to send a message to end this trump agenda we have to flip this district and replace brian physical patrick with me, christina finello. go to our website and help us flip the seat and flip the pennsylvania delegation. >> hillary scholten, how much does coronavirus play it role in what you're talking to voters about and how is your campaign going there? what's your main issue? >> thank you so much for having me, mika. it's a pleasure to be here. you know, the coronavirus is top of everyone's minds, not only the laboring threat of the pandemic but the economic fallout. a district like mine, average income for faum of four is around $50,000 a year.

this is, has been a devastating 2020. health care is top of mind for so many, because of the pandemic, and because, you know, related to the recession, we've got 5.4 million americans without health insurance. i can't go to the grocery store without people talking to me just how important it is that we protect people with pre-existing conditions, lower the cost of care. our campaign is on fire. we are up by two points in the polls, on the brink of making history here by electing the first democrat in almost 50 years. the first woman ever to represent this district. people are excited and we're building something new here in west michigan. i wasn't born and raised in a democratic household, and, you know, but have come to see that the time is now for change, and that's really the story of west michigan.

it is, kent county, heart of my district, considered a real bellwether for this election and as tom mentioned, it is literally one of the most crucial seats to flip in order to make sure that we can prevent trump from winning in michigan again in 2020. it matter es des deeply to peop the ground. this could be one of the very first votes i cast for michigan's third congressional district. we're working hard here to win this seat. anybody who's interested in learning more and getting involved, feel free to check us out at hillaryscholten.com. >> margaret good, how is your race going? you're in florida. as it pertains to the coronavirus, is there an issue with how people are getting their news? i mean, it's hard enough to grapple with your opponent, but are you also struggling with people understand the facts? >> well, you know, people want to live in a healthy and a safe and a civil society, and

unfortunately that is not where we are right now. people are sick. they're financially insecure. they cannot look to the government, because trump is not taking this virus seriously. he is downplaying the importance of it, and our current congressman, my opponent, buchanan, named one of the most corrupt members of congress five times and in lockstep with president trump. he's voted to gut health care, to cut medicare, to allow insurance companies to drop people with pre-existing conditions, and we deserve so much better, and the seniors in this district, they aren't having it. they have seen their friends get sick. they fear for their own health, and they're -- they're scared, and isolated. and this is a district that is one of the oldest districts in the country, and that's why we have seen this shift in -- in voting. our polling has us statistically

tied with our opponent. >> wow. >> so we are working hard to flip this seat and make sure that we bring accountability to washington and florida, as you know, is one of the most important states. this is trump's path to, to the re-election, to the white house, and if we stop him in florida, we stop this chaos and bring normalcy and decency back to this country. >> three women looking to flip seats in what could be the most vital districts in the country. dr. christina finello, hillary scholten, margaret good, thank you all. we should mention we've reached out to each of their opponents to offer interviews as well. tom rodgers, thank you for staying on this, and before we close today, willie geist? >> yeah. a busy morning, mika. the news tomorrow night at 8:00 eastern time tpresident trump w hold a town hall meeting on nbc news. er that on msnbc as well. the real headline out of that

one-hour program is that the president submitted to an independent pcr test from the national institutes of health and doctor anthony fauci himself along with dr. clifford lane review issed president trump's medical data including the pcr test and concluded with a high degree of confidence the president is not shedding infectious virus thereby clearing him to participate in tomorrow night's town hall with savannah. mike, kick it to you and gone 2 hours 59 minutes without me mentioning the great service by the tampa bay rays jumping out to a 3-0 lead over the houston astros. >> willie, they are america's team. fighting the good fight and hopefully will succeed in beating the cheaters from houston. to your point, tomorrow night's town hall meeting, savannah guthrie and president donald trump, a real sign of an indication the trump internal numbers are showing devastation

and he is now seeking a wider audience. not just the fox tv audience. he's going to speak to a wider audience of americans. >> yeah. there you go. all right. that does it for us this morning. chuck todd picks up the special coverage night now. good wednesday morning. i an chuck todd of nbc news, and welcome to the msnbc coverage of the supreme court just hearings of amy coney barrett. yesterday the hearing last the 12 hours. today each get 20 minutes to ask remaining questions. at some point expect them to break into closed session to press the judge on more personal issues. this is expected to be the final day that we see judge barrett at these hearings. the