hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. thanks to some stunning new reporting in "the washington post," we now know that rudy giuliani was identified by u.s. intelligence agencies as a target of an active russian intelligence operation to harm the candidacy of joe biden. that's according to new reporting in the postout today. rudy basically functioning as a russian asset by pushing russian disinformation. a bigger headline here as always is the case when russia is identified with attacking the united states with disinformation is the president's reaction to warnings from his own intelligence community about this ongoing and live russian aggression. when white house officials warned him, trump reportedly shrugged it off saying, quote, that's rudy. in the most chilling part of "the washington post" scoop, the post goes on to report, quote,

the intelligence raised concerns that rudy giuliani was being used to feed russian misinformation to the president, the warnings to the white house which have not previously been reported led national security adviser o'brien to caution president trump that any information rudy giuliani brought back from ukraine should be contaminated by russia. the message is do what you want to do but your friend rudy has been worked by russian assets in ukraine. rudy giuliani as well as the spokes people at the cia and dni declined to comment to nbc news. robert mueller's 22 month long investigation on russia/trump ties found russia sought to aid the trump campaign in 2016 and the trump campaign welcomed that help. so this is a staggering upgrade to that arrangement with the president who now sits atop the

united states national security apparatus, using his closest legal and political adviser who is being armed and, quote, contaminated in the words of the intelligence community with russian disinformation to batter joe biden. to put it more bluntly than that, russia and trump are both using rudy to spread the same russian disinformation about joe biden. "the washington post" has the reporting, quote, official's warnings about rudy giuliani underscore the concern that russia is not only seeking to reprize the disinformation campaign it waged in 2016 but also may now be aided, unwittingly or otherwise by those close to the president. those warnings gained fresh urgency in recent days. the information that rudy giuliani sought in ukraine is similar to other emails in correspondents published by the

new york post which they said came from the laptop of hunter biden and was provided by rudy giuliani and steve bannon. this comes as law enforcement is actively investigating whether the alleged hunter biden emails are linked to any foreign intel ops. no one guaranteed the laptop but it hasn't stopped trump as using it from his ailing presidential campaign act. a potential chain of custody from the russians to rudy and out of the president's mouth is where we start. former fbi assistant for counter intel frank figliuzzi is here. jason johnson, journalism and politics professor. and washington post phil rut kerr is here.

all msnbc analysts. if you can take me through, frank figliuzzi, what would happen if donald trump wasn't the president. if this wasn't complicated by his now years long affinity for russia and russian disinformation. >>. >> that's a great question because essentially what you're saying is let's break this down to its simplest components what would we call it if it were not the president but some corporate executive or some citizen? here's what we got. we've got a person named donald trump, who has been warned that he is receiving and is now regurgitating, repeating and disseminating disinformation that he knows to be fabricated and supplied by a foreign intelligence service. and despite the warning he's still doing it. that would be an investigation in the fbi. that person would be in the subject line of the fbi. and there could be criminal, as well as counterintelligence

repercussions for that individual. and i can tell you this, we can play games with what to call this person, donald trump, who's knowingly doing this, but i can tell you what the russian intelligence services call that kind of person, they call him an asset. and that's essentially what we're looking at when he knows it, when he doesn't stop and when he promotes it, he's knowingly aiding and abetting the adversary in if spreading propaganda and disinformation. and he's not going to stop until he is stopped, perhaps by the voters. >> let me ask you, frank figliuzzi, how the operation works from the russian side. they keep pushing the envelope because they're our adversary and that's what you do, you keep pushing. but do you think at its inception this disinformation campaign had ruud walkidy walki the oval telling trump what he got and having trump spew it on the campaign trail. do you think that's what the russians imagined?

>> no, i think in their wildest dreams inside the kremlin they could not have imagined a scenario where the lawyer to the president of the united states is actually becoming a mouthpiece for the intelligence services. i think that's beyond anybody's dreams and somebody is getting heavily rewarded, extra bonuses inside the russian intelligence service for this. you can't make this stuff up, but it's happening and it's the best case scenario. let's not just talk about donald trump. the reporting from "the washington post" tells us also that attorney general barr knows this. the national security advisor knows this and they continue to do it as well. this is a tainted administration. this is beyond the wildest dreams of the russian intelligence service. >> chuck rosenberg i ask those questions because i have, since the presidential transition when comey writes in his book about going in to brief trump and the family and reince priebus, and

some of the other trump ten chiefs of staff ago they didn't act upset that russia had attacked america's election. and then when bob mueller, one of the great fbi leaders in history was appointed to get to the bottom why russia attacked america, the same way a commission was set up after 9/11 to find out how that was missed. i never understood how not just donald trump but fox news and every republican in the congress was so disinterested about what bob mueller might find about a political 9/11. when the results were lied about by barr, i did wonder why are they doing that? if the mueller report didn't bring charges against trump he can move on. and then as he's gone and reversed those cases, erased mueller's work, the prosecution and sentencing of manafort, who was at the heart of the

collusion,stone the dirty trickster on the phone. flynn, we still don't know who said lie about his conversations with the russians. i think what frank is saying is that they are now a part of -- the post reporting leaves it -- we don't know they're doing it on purpose. but they are part of a russian intelligence operation in this country. is that right? >> seems to be, nicole. "the washington post" article also describes something we already knew. if you raise russia and its election interference with the president, it is as described in the post article, a third rail. meaning that anything that undermines, in trump's mind the legitimacy of his win in 2016 is a third rail. nobody wants to go there with him, they don't have the courage to stand up to him. there's a bigger problem and frank and you illustrated it

nicely. let me flip the camera around for a minute to explain the significance of it. imagine that vladimir putin had a very, very close political ally, friend, lawyer, mentor, confident, call him dimitry and somehow the u.s. was able to plant dimitry and dimitry fed it to putin and putin spoke about it, acted about it, talked about it with all of his cabinet members for lack of a better word in the kremlin. the u.s. intelligence community would think of that as an enormous victory. that would be a coupe that we were able to, in one hop, plant information with the president of russia in the kremlin. and that's exactly what has happened with rudy giuliani. my god, i hope it's unwhiting because everything that man does

seems to be unwitting, but it's witting that's worse. either way, nicole, the kremlin has a pipeline to the white house. do you remember when john bolton called rudy giuliani a hand grenade? it seems to me that vladimir putin has pulled the pin on that grenade in the form of rudy giuliani and rolled it into the oval office. >> frank figliuzzi, because it is rudy giuliani, and because it is donald trump, there's a taped confession. let me show you rudy giuliani telling jake tapper that there's nothing wrong with taking disinformation, information from russia. and donald trump telling george stephanopoulos we'd absolutely do it again. >> there's nothing wrong with taking information from russians. depends on where it came from. >> you would have accepted information from russians against a candidate if you were running? >> i probably wouldn't. i wasn't asked. i would have advise out of an

excess of caution don't do it. >> if foreigners, russia, china, someone offers you information on an opponent, should they accept it or call the fbi? >> i think maybe you do both. i think you might want to listen. there's nothing wrong with listening. if somebody called from a country, norway, we have information on your opponent. oh, i think i'd want to hear it. >> you want that kind of interference in our elections? >> it's not an interference. they have information. i think i'd take it. >> frank those are many, many months old. i think years old at this point. but everyone listens and the president and rudy solicited this information. it may be unwitting in terms of what's provable but they publicly invited it. >> nicole, this is feigned ignorance. rudy is saying it's fine to take information from russia. trump saying, no -- it's equivalent to taking information from norway. i wouldn't call the fbi. it's feigned inno response. it's the same as the president

saying last night he doesn't know anything about qanon. he knows this is russian government related. so does rudy. once you're on notice you have to do something about it. it's not just another russian giving him this information and disinformation. they're being played, at the least they're being played. at the most this is a witting operation. there's more to this as well. in my career in counterintelligence, i've seen this before. i've seen people in power with huge egos, nicole and they look at you across that interview table and they go, i got it. i got this. thanks very much, fbi, but i know how to handle this. i'm savvy. i can weed out the intel versus the disinformation. i'm an international player. you know in each and every one of those cases that i've experienced, it doesn't end well for that person.

>> and we should remind all of ourselves that the impeachment of donald trump had, at its heart, russian disinformation. that rudy giuliani and donald trump and the people around them and their accomplices at the highest levels at the state department used to smear dedicated, accomplished national security officials like maria von vich and fiona hill. here's the warning, not just that we were at risk of being russia's useful idiots but that rudy giuliani was described as the grenade. >> ambassador bolton, basically indicated with body language that there was nothing much we could do about it. then, in the course of that discussion said that rudy giuliani was a hand grenade that was going to blow everyone up. he was clearly pushing forward issues and ideas that would

probably come back to haunt us. in fact, i think that's where we are today. >> chuck, it was haunting when she said it, but to read this report today was just a gut punch. >> absolutely. look, fiona hill and maria v yavonovich and all the people we heard from were so careful, dignified and cared deeply about the way we conduct ourselves in foreign policy. they knew about the threat, the president didn't care about the threat and that must have been so disturbing to them. it's hard to imagine how it felt other than when i look at what's happened to my own department of justice and fbi, i have that same pit in my stomach. fiona hill was marvelous. nothing has changed. all we know from "the washington post" is that rudy giuliani is being directly used as part of a

disinformation campaign. he doesn't seem to care. the president doesn't seem to care. i sure do hope the voters care. because as frank figliuzzi knows and as he said, this is a very big deal. >> phil rucker, let me bring you in on the politics of this. this matters and we're starting here today because this is the beginning of a story we'll have to cover the next 22 days. there is, as your paper reported, an active russian disinformation op, the white house was warned about it, rudy giuliani is the target of it, is the word that your newspaper used. you have four accomplished national security reporters by lined on the story, which i think four to eight references to sources in here. and they're up to a new operation. it involves emails, a hard drive. talk about how the press is approaching what is now known at the front end of the

disinformation campaign as, quote, contaminated by your story. >> yeah. nicole, it's a real challenge for journalism, news organizations to try to figure out what information comes you on of the mouth or the twitter feed of the president of the united states is credible and what may be foreign disinformation that's being spread by america's enemies abroad to try to influence this election so close to the end. we should keep in mind a couple pieces of context here. rudy giuliani in addition to being the president's friend, lawyer, confidant and former mayor of new york city is his debate coach. the final debate is scheduled to be next week and rudy giuliani has been helping to prepare the president for the debates. so we'll see if there's any new information that rudy giuliani acquired from the sources that he may try to pass to the president to lob at biden on the debate stage with tens of millions of voters watching.

that's a possibility. we should watch to see what the president is saying about this on the rallies. we saw him try to weaponize the new york post story on the company trail. two and a half weeks in politics is a lifetime. there's not a lot of time for journalists and public officials and public servants to try to figure out what's real, what's not, what's credible, what's foreign miss information and keep in mind voters aren't waiting until november 3rd to make up their minds. millions of voters are voting today, tomorrow, until the election. >> i don't know how to say this in a sensitive manner so i'm going to say it. anyone with someone in their family who's battled addiction is happy for every day that person is on this earth. so i'm not saying hunter biden's life and business choices are

not something that phil rucker and his colleagues have a right to look at. i'm saying that america has an ability to understand that vice president biden does not live a lavish life, and if the russian op is to use rudy to get trump to say bad things about hunter biden, who is a recovered addict's business and professional and personal choices, that seems like a last gasp of a desperate political, corrupt political operation. >> nicole, and if you peel away and get this at the base to how americans would hear it, the story is preposterous. the story is preposterous. we're supposed to believe that hunter biden in a drunken stupor dropped off his laptop in a qanon repair office because this person decides to not only dig into hunter biden's emails but

then calls the fbi and rudy giuliani. none of the story makes sense. in the '90s, maybe a politician drops off film to be developed and they see a picture of that person and their mistress and they call the media. but this is so obviously a russian operation, a story created by the trump campaign in order to go back to this ridiculous notion that hunter biden's personal mistakes are a reflection of the entire 47-year career of joe biden doesn't work. it reflects it's not just trump will lie, it's not just that people around his administration will lie. it's not just that they will sit back and promote miss information and disinformation. it's that they are willingly doing so even with an election on the line. of all the resources donald trump could put on the table today, like i don't know a second stimulus for people suffering through coronavirus or infrastructure week, his plan is

to use russians to attack his opponent's son. that shows how desperate and disgusting these people really are when the lives of millions of americans are at stake. >> you know, it's a good political point, phil rucker, if donald trump wanted to bounce five points nationally with seniors and probably to to five in florida and a couple in pennsylvania probably, he could today issue a national mask mandate and say he's going to use the u.s. marshall and military to enforce it. his poll numbers would go up with seniors i wear. i don't understand why his desperate hail marys are so sinister. why not do something to end the pandemic and reboot the economy. >> that's the question from day one of the pandemic, why not do what the scientists say is necessary to help fix this problem in this country. instead the president is in

denial, his administration has dysfunctional over the last several months and he's digging in on his thinking, on his aversion to the science and to the expertise within his own government. we saw it in a town hall last night when, you know, he challenged savannah gat guthrie about the consensus on mask usage and saying he heard from his doctor, dr. scott atlas, that masks don't work as well as the scientific community says they do. it's perplexing and some of the reporting suggests it's perplexing to the president's own advisers, his campaign strategists who are stuck here with a candidate who will not git on a disciplined message and do the easy things to rescue his own political standing. >> jason, try to butt ton this for us. this reporting reveals an active

and live russian disinformation campaign to harm joe biden is targeting rudy giuliani and we know the things that rudy giuliani is pedaling is coming out of donald trump's mouth. where does that leave us? are we wiser, more immune from disinformation from four years ago? i think we have three more fridays to go before election day. >> nicole, i think the fact that we're having this discussion means we are wiser than four years ago. you know, four years ago, wikileaks was sending out uncurated information and everybody was running through it like it was a buffet table at golden corral on a sunday. now we have learned to be more skeptical about leaks and information and where that information may come from and whether or not it was delivered in good ways or whether or not we can trust the original source. i think that not just the press but the american people are a lot more sophisticated now when it comes to this kind of

information. what's interesting is, for an administration led by a man who's been so good at branding and picking out the pulse of the american people, for once he's behind. he thinks americans are dumber than they are, because at this point we don't trust anything that come cos out of this administration. that's why it's falling so flat even though it's only two weeks before the election. >> frank and chuck, thank you both for helping me understand this. frank is sticking around. chuck, jason and phil, thank you for helping us start here. it's an important conversation. i'm grateful to all of you. when we come back, another new low for the president, repeatedly given an opportunity to disavow the group qanon he gave them a boost instead. we'll look at the dangers of that information. a stark contrast in leadership when it comes to the pandemic, the specifics joe biden offered versus the combative lies trump was spewing. plus photographer pete souza is here, he's part of a stunning

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just this week you retweeted to 87 million followers a conspiracy theory that joe biden ok orchestrated to have seal team six killed to cover up the fake death of -- >> i don't know anything. >> you retweeted it. >> that was an opinion of somebody and that was a retweet.

i'll put it out there. someone can make the decision. >> you're the president, you're not someone's crazy uncle. >> that was a retweet. i do a lot of retweets. >> actually, mary trump reminded us last night he is someone's crazy uncle but he is also the president of the united states. his retweets have consequences. that wasn't the only conspiracy theory that made its way to the town hall. here's the president when asked about a group his fbi deemed a potential terror threat. >> i know nothing about qanon. >> i just told you. >> you told me but what you told me don't necessarily make it fact. i hate to say that. i know nothing about it. i do know they are very much against pedophilia. they fight it very hard. but i know -- >> they believe it's a satanic cult run by the deep state. ben sasse said, quote, qanon is nuts and real leaders call conspiracy theories conspiracy

theories. >> he may be right. >> why not say it's not true? >> i just don't know about qanon. >> joining our conversation, the rev al sharpton, president of the national action network. frank figliuzzi is still here. i mean, rev, he doesn't know anything about qanon except their positions on pedophilia rings? this was ludicrous from him. to the broader point it's not helping him in his closing act of his now ailing presidential campaign. >> he's clearly falling apart, because he's not even politically protecting himself. first of all, qanon came up in the debate, so let's say that -- let's just pretend that he didn't know about it. certainly someone would have briefed him from the campaign, from the justice department and all after it's surfaced in the campaign. so he's outright lying about that. but we are talking about a

president that had the conspiracy theory that barack obama was magically born in kenya, not hawaii, so he is one himself given to conspiracy theories. we do know the group is supportive of him and he is too insecure to ever not be not flattered by people that support him. the danger of this, though, is that he, as the head of state and the commander in chief, would flirt with people that his own intelligence forces say is a threat to internal security and terrorism, domestically and he would flirt with them openly, it is mind boggling and it is frightening. >> frank, i asked you to stick around and try to tie the last conversation with this one. because what russia -- what the russian intel agencies and qanon have in common is they threaten america. why do they like trump so much?

>> because they have found a perfect partner in terms of someone receptive to going somewhere else, other than the truth. he thrives on conspiracy, on falsehoods, fabrications, anything that distracts away from the very unpleasant realities of a very complex world. so they found their match here and it's playing nicely for them. look, people use ignorance as a strategy when it serves their purpose. it's ironic that the president says he knows nothing about qanon yet he's using the same techniques that qanon uses to thrive and spread across the country and across the world. those techniques are letting people think that a frprophesy being fulfilled. every time something happens there's a way to square it into the q drops, what the so-called

q leadership puts out to their followers, it's all vague and murky and the president likes it that way. he thrives okay i don't say and confusion. that's why we see him deny knowledge of qanon. he doesn't know anything about qanon or proud boys but is an expert when it comes to antifa and far left issues. that's not being bought by the general public. they know more about qanon than he's pretending not to know. >> the fbi director has warned about the proud boys and white supremacists, they were behind domestic terrorism and white supremacist groups were behind a foiled fbi plot to kidnap michigan governor gretchen wit mer who just appeared with joe biden, let's watch some of that appearance. >> make no mistake that's who they are, domestic terrorists,

flatter ris flat terrorists, planning to blow up a bridge, threaten the lives of police officers and planning to kidnap a governor, it's what we expect from isis. the failure to condemn these folks is stunning. >> i mean, back to you, frank. the failure to condemn isis would have been front page news. these are domestic terrorists, they have been classified as such by the fbi, donald trump's own appointee there, christopher wray said they're the bucket of people that threaten us the most. what's the impact of having a president who refuses to forcefully and repeatedly make it part of his offensive messaging to say not on my watch. i will not have democratic governors targeted by domestic

terrorists. >> we don't need to engage in a guessing game how this goes over. we need to look at the social media sites, both private and public of these groups to see how they're receiving the information. a person can say i didn't intend to signal or give green lights or aid and abet, but it's happening when you look at what's going on in law enforcement among intelligence analysts, they will tell you they are very worried about the receptivity and how proud boys views this, how qanon views this. this is worse than a failure to denoun denounce. i could live with a failure to denounce. he's actually repeating and disseminating the same theories that can and have gotten people hurt. it's promoting and encouraging, like he did last night with qanon. i think qanon is against pedophilia. that's a signal, i'm with you, keep that theme going.

that works for me. and it's sad because this is going to lead to even more violence. >>, you know, rev, you would know better than me, you know donald trump personally. a trump ally once explained that the slowness and the refusal to condemn these groups -- i think it was in the context of the botched efforts to condemn david duke -- are because he likes everyone that likes him. i'm suspecting it's deeper than that. it's an affinity, a shared view of the world. what's your fake on why the groups are so challenging for him to disavow, even when it does him political harm to be seen as giving him the green light? >> you are probably right. there's something there. i think that on the surface it's clear that it is difficult, if not impossible, given his -- the makeup of his character to disagree with anyone or disavow anyone that likes him. but i think there is a deeper

message here. he's confmfortable with these groups. he identifies with them. i think that's what's so troubling and disturbing, because it would seem to me even the most crass and cynical politician would get away from what makes them uncomfortable. he can sit there last night he stood at the debate and be very comfortable with agreeing with these groups or at least agreeing not to denounce them and find a way to, in some way, empower them, and the fact that he has a comfort level with them means there is not much sunlight between his thoughts and theirs. >> i mean, he has dropped chiefs of staff and cabinet secretaries for lesser offenses than qanon and white supremacists. we'll keep watching this space. the rev, frank figliuzzi thank you both for spending time with us. >> trump and biden were both

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you can't say everyone has to do this. but you would -- like you can't mandate a mask. but you can say, you can go to every governor, get them all in a room, all 50 of them as president and say, ask people to wear the mask. >> that was former vice president joe biden last night offering granular specifics on how he'd handle the coronavirus pandemic as president. and how he might try to mandate or encourage governors to mandate masks and the taking and tr distributing of a vaccine. biden suppressed that a president's words matter. with that in mind, here is the current president who shared no plan to mandate either mask wearing or social distancing or anything else, who five minutes earlier repeated an inaccurate claim about masks and cited a study incorrectly to back up his lie. >> i'm good with masks. i tell people to wear masks but

the other day they came out with a statement to say that 85% of people that wear masks catch it. >> i know that study that can't what they said. >> that's what i heard. but regardless everybody is tested. i knew i'm president, i have to see people, i can't be in a basement, i can't be in a room. >> you can see people with a mask though, right? >> i can but people with masks are catching it all the time. >> let's bring in msnbc medical contributor dr. patel. my colleague savannah guthrie there did a brilliant job debunking his lie there about people that wear masks, 85% of them get covid. it's not true. he used a statistic that didn't exist to make an argument that isn't accurate. what do you make of the ongoing threat that the president poses to our ability to protect ourselves from covid? >> it's an incredible ongoing

threat, nicole. he's continuing, at every turn, to just propagate, even more misinformation, just when i thought there was no more misinformation to propagate, he somehow twists statistics in a study to actually propagate misinformation. so, you know, all viewers be ware. there is no such thing as masks causing covid and there is no cure for covid. and the president can talk about how he's been immune or he's got a cure. those are all lies. all of them meant to just completely alienate and isolate this base that he keeps speaking to, which feeds off of this ms. information and is frankly, nicole, driving at lo of outbreaks at the hot spots at the rallies and other gatherings he's also holding. >> one of those was his white house someone who caught covid and was in intensive care for

seven days from covid was chris christie. here he is on gma talking about that. >> no matter what you're doing, you should have a mask on and try to remain socially distance from folks. i did it for seven months george, stayed healthy. i didn't do it for four days and i wound up in the icu. >> so four days with donald trump landed chris christie in the icu. why don't more of these people. kellyanne conway has a case of covid, hope hicks battled covid, i think we were on the air when the footage of her walking maskless to air force one. why don't they care about trying to save the lives of people that might be more vulnerable and more at risk? >> they simply -- not only do they not care about the people, including their own colleagues around them, but i think they're all responding to this example set by their commander in chief, who clearly does not care about any of them.

and every comment he has made, he still, to this day is not acknowledging the millions of americans who have been infected, and the hundreds of thousands that we estimate that have already passed but those that are likely going to pass because of this reckless behavior. so i think the people around him, unfortunately, most as you know, nicole, most white house aides should be able to push back on a president, to be able to tell him the truth. in this white house you've seen this culture of fear and retaliation, where i don't think that honesty is welcome. and candidly it's now reverberating through their scientific advisers will people like dr. scott atlas who's putting forward concepts around herd immunity that will kill people. it doesn't matter. there's no reason to even talk about these things. as you pointed out, savannah guthrie did an excellent job trying at every step of the way, this is a president who is in his own -- he is in his own head

and has his own beliefs and could careless about the people around him, even those people voting for him. >> it is stunning. and it was really a spectacle to see someone like savannah so rooted in facts and objectivity, try to have just a conversation and pull out some information, stuff as basic as when donald trump's last negative covid test was, if he indeed took one before the test. also notable he wasn't able to say whether he did or didn't. to be continued. dr. kavita patel, always wonderful to talk to you. thank you for taking time for us today. up next we go behind the scenes of the obama presidency with white house photographer pete souza. his photographs of president obama serve as the documentary tonight on msnbc. we'll be right back with that conversation. t on msnbc we'll be right back with that

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during my eight years as the chief official white house photographer for the obama administration, i documented all of the important moments of his presidency. the emotion, the tough decisions, the stressful times, the fun times. but also showing what he was like as a dad, as a husband,

just as a human being. to me, that shows how the job of the president should be done. >> trust me when i tell you that this doc is a tonic for the times in which we gather here every day. stirring moments from what is sadly a by gone era. joining us now is pete souza white house photographer for ronald reagan and barack obama. it is call the the way i see it looking at the obama's presidency through interviews with pete and his other west wing colleagues. we got to talk about this earlier in the week and i got to see it already. but one of the most, i think, difficult things to talk about is that your mother plays a really neat role in the doc.

and you lost her on sunday. so just talk about what this week has been like and how having her in this doc that airs tonight on msnbc, the first time everyone could see it, keeps it right there, at least this week and as long as this doc is in wide circulation. >> yeah. you know the first time i saw the film, nicolle, she was still alive. and i guess i'll watch the film tonight or be the first time since she's died that i've seen the film. so it is going to be that part for me quite emotional. >> and she's in there but you don't need to be humanized by anyone other than your relationship with the presidents you shot. just talk about -- because i feel like you have become this vessel for every former staffer who aches for what has happened to that physical place that we all revered, the oval office.

>> yeah, i mean, i was kind of like the one person throughout the administration who was in all of these different compartments of his life. so like every emotion that barack obama went through as president, i was in the room for. and in some ways i experienced it with him. it wasn't that we spoke about it. but the fact that i was -- there is a certain bond between him and i. i think because, you know, i knew everything that he was going through every day. the good and the bad. >> i want to show you something that i think illustrates that. this is about his trips to walter reed and your photos are right in the middle of what he went through. let's watch. >> every three months we would go to waller reed and woe visit wounded warriors. i think it affected him emotionally. one time he went and we saw cory

remsberg, he had got injured by an ied and his colleague was killed and he was thrown into a ravine and under water, somehow he survived not drowning. he spent months in acomma and lost half of his eye sight and control half of his body and had to relearn how to walk, talk and eat. and here is the thing that took me aback. president obama has met him in normandy in the previous june and i had taken the picture and we had sent a copy to the family and it was taped on the hospital wall. and i was looking at that picture and looking at cory and saying to myself, this is the real cost of war. >> it makes me -- that is the second time i've seen it. it makes me cry every time.

truly great presidents feel that their role as commander-in-chief is among the most difficult and the most sacred. and i know your other job now is pointing out the contrast between president obama and this president. but on this front, it couldn't be more stark. >> well, you know, he was inherently empathetic and compassionate. as is, by the way, joe biden. and he felt it was part of his duty to go to walter reed, as i say, every few months. you know george w. bush did the same thing. we don't see the current president interacting with wounded warriors in the same way. or people affected by some national tragedy. it is hard for me to watch, to be honest with you. >> i wanted to ask you, last question for you is about your instagram feed.

you are one of the most followed and most famous critics of this president. usually without saying a word. but with showing an image that makes a point for you. what st is that role like? >> i think it was a role that i felt i had to do, that i had a unique position having witnessed two presidencies on the inside. one republican and one a democrat. so i think i had a unique view point to be able to talk about what the presidency should be like. that the office should be treated with respect and dignity, that the person holding that office should be empathetic and compassionate and decent. and normally, those are the kind of posts that i'm trying to compare to what -- with what is going on today. >> pete souza, i have to say the

hour and 40 minutes i spent watching "the way i see it" is one of the most enjoyable hours and 40 minutes i've spent any time lately. i will watch it again tonight at 10:00 on msnbc with no commercials. congratulations. it is wonderful. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. s after a quick break. vicks vapopatch. easy to wear with soothing vicks vapors for her, for you, for the whole family. trusted soothing vapors, from vicks we live in the mountains so i like to walk. i'm really busy in my life; i'm always doing something. i'm not a person that's going to sit too long. in the morning, i wake up and the first thing i do is go to my art studio.

a couple came up and handed me a brochure on prevagen. i've been taking prevagen for about four years. i feel a little bit brighter and my mind just feels sharper. i would recommend it to anyone. it absolutely works. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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i don't want it getting out of this room, but my opponent is an impressive fellow in many ways. political upon opponents could have difficulty seeing best in each other but i've had a few glimpses of this man at his best and i admire his great skill,

energy and determination. it is not for nothing that he's inspired so many folks in his own party and beyond. i can't wish my opponent luck. but i do wish him well. >> hi, again, everyone. it is 5:00 in the east. that is the late senator john mccain about this time in 2008. it was days before his defeat to then senator obama. a more noble time when presidential candidates respected one another and the peaceful transfer of power. when republicans could speak their minds without fearing a mean tweet from a want to be dictators or the anger and ranl of his base. fast forward to 2020 and the republican party has essentially become a rubber stamp for donald trump, bending over become wards to justify his insults, his cruelty, his whims and his embrace of conspiracy theories. if they had anything bad to say about the president, they kept it to themselves. but not so much any more. as donald trump's poll numbers

continue to plummet, threatening their hold on the upper chamber, senate republicans finally seem to be channeling a teeny smidge of their john mccain. airing private thoughts in public and trying to get off the runaway trump train. here is what ben sasse had to say in a phone call obtained by the washington examiner. >> i'm worried that if president trump loses as looks likely that he's going to take the senate down with him. i'm now looking at the possibility of a republican blood bath in the senate, and thatez why i've never been on the trump train. that is why i didn't agree to serve on his re-election committee and i'm not campaigning for him. >> a blood bath. would you. ben sasse wasn't the first person to make that prediction and probably won't be the last. here is what ted cruz told cnbc one week ago. >> i think we could lose the white house and both houses of congress, that it could be a

blood bath of watergate proportions and i don't recall an election in my lifetime where the delta, the spread between those two was as dramatic as it is and it makes this a very uncertain election. >> for his part, donald trump seems to be dismissing their comments in the mounting evidence that he could be heading for defeat. tweeting today that massive red wave is coming. somewhere. republicans jumping ship as the president's closing arguments appear to be faltering is where we start this hour with our favorite reporters and friends. former usa congresswoman donna edwards is back and a.p. white house reporter jonathan lemire is here and my friend mark salter, senior advisers to john mccain for many years including his 2008 presidential campaign and more importantly today the author of the new book "the luckiest man" life with john mccain. we were talking to pete souza in the last hour and this is the

same vain that used to be in politics. thank you for being with us. mark salter, i saw that clip when you tweeted it out. and i remember how painful those days were. but because the transfer of power is in the news, let me ask you, i remember when john handed me your draft of his concession speech. and we were in the hotel room. i had just come back from doing a round of interviews including with brian williams and the polls aren't closed in the west coast, let's not call it yet. and there weren't the most fun interviews i'd every done but i was happy to do them for john. and i remember walking into the room and he came over to me and he watched everything but he handed me your speech, the draft of his concession speech and he had wet eyes and say read it. it is the best one he's ever written. why was the transfer of pow so important to him. >> because he was a patriot. and that is how a patriot

accepts defeat in this country. and you want to do it with grace and by reminding all americans that even though he suffered a very disappointing defeat that he worked very hard not to suffer, that he still felt he was the luckiest man on earth because he got to continue serving in the united states and that was the passion of his life and he was going to take this one in stride and get back to work when he could. he wanted to make sure that president-elect obama had every good wish from him and his full support for a smooth transition of power and it wasn't really that unusual up until now. that's really how people are supposed to -- generally taught to behave in politics. but when you look at that clip of the smith dinner, it feels like a lifetime ago now. and i'll give donald trump this, he makes every year feel like a

decade. and it makes me feel older. but any way. >> i feel the same way. yeah. jonathan lemire let me bring you into this. donald trump has no experience as president with republican senators dising him. my old boss george w. bush grew accustomed to critics within his own party and scejohn mccain wa one of the loudest but he hasn't governed with anything other than a echo chamber for the most lunatic extra judicial inappropriate crass kinds of things that have gone on. how are they dealing with this now? >> you're right, nicolle. there has been very few examples of members of the republican senator tanding up to the president. john mccain is one. let's remember he was the deciding vote to scuttle the health care plan back in 2017. we saw after helsinki, but they

are few and far between. but you're seeing now a little bit of daylight. a little bit of concern. senator sass and cruz are examples. but we've written this week, my colleagues and i wrote this week about how there is growing alarm among republicans that not only is president heading for defeat, he may be heading for a significant one. one that takes the senate with him. and i would not say yet they are preparing for a post trump world just yet. but there are thoughts about that direction. how they could try to salvage themselves and keep themselves above water here. we saw from mitch mcconnell in the last week or so. as someone who has aligned himself so closely with the president and this is about as critical as he's going to be when he made a point of saying that he hadn't been to the white house in a couple of months because he didn't trust how they were managing the pandemic there. he didn't feel it was safe. and that in itself was interpretted by some republicans that the senate majority lead

ser going to distance himself but the message is clear. there are real concern that the president is losing. and we saw last night at that town hall, it seems to me this, it was sort of a whiplash effect between the two stations where one moment you had joe biden talk about -- tax rates and you had donald trump defending a conspiracy theory. but the takeaway was mostly this, there is nothing the president did last night to help him. even his own aides acknowledge that. he's running out of time. the counter is growing short for the president now. >> donna, i want to play more ben sasse's takedown of donald trump because it sounds like the sorts of things we cover here every day. >> the united states now regularly sells out our allies under his leadership. the way he treats women and spends like a drunken sailer. he mocks evangelicals behind closed doors. his family has treated the presidency like a business opportunity. he's flirted with white supremacists. at the beginning of the covid crisis he refuse the to treat it

serious. first he ignored covid and then went into full economic shutdown mode. he was the one who said 10 to 14 days of shutdown would fix this and that was always wrong. and so i don't think the way he's led through covid has been reasonable or responsible. >> wow, donna. i wonder if he could have been so good if he said those things seven months ago. >> i was just thinking the same thing. let's not give ben sasse a profile encourage award. because at this stage republicans who continue to stick with the president are actually just going to be in even more hot water over the next couple of weeks. you know, i think one of the things that strikes me is that ben sasse actually sought the endorsement of the president and received it just a month or so ago. ben sasse could have said these things when he was running in a

competitive primary in the spring and he didn't. and so we're not going to award him bonus points. but his critique is right. it is the critique that we've been making here on your program for months and months. actually for the last couple of years. it is a critique that republicans could have made all along and didn't. and so there will be fewer of them in the united states senate, fewer of them in the house of representatives, and none of them in the white house in just a couple of weeks. >> you know, mark salter, so much of the book is about your time and how you ended up in the senate which was a story that i didn't know. but i want to show you the fundraising numbers. because chief among he and she being outraised is lindsey graham. democrat jamie harrison raised $57 million and lindsay raised

$28 and now groveling for money on fox shows. first, what do you think? but what would john think about -- he was kind of fatalistic about political gravity and this to me feels like political gravity. these guys said nothing as the president talked about grabbing women in the bleep, assailed robert mueller and james comey. what do you think john would have thought about the numbers and the state of the republican control of the senate? >> what i think is i wish i'd been a media consultant and not a speech writer. having limped through a couple of presidential campaigns on financial fumes. >> i feel you. >> you could only -- i could only dream of half that. obviously it shows the intensity and the passion behind democrats in this cycle. it is shaping up to be in a much more polarized age, what -- i

know you remember, nicolle, the last couple of weeks in the campaign in '08, we knew we were going to lose and not much to do about it. and right track, wrong track was terrible. obama had ten times the amount of money we had. banks were closing and people couldn't get money out of the atms. it was -- okay, but there is a little of that now. trump goes out and all he ever -- you have the two town halls. biden goes out and he contradicts trump's attacks on his fitness. whenever trump goes out he reaffirms everybody's doubts about his fitness. there is nothing he's capable of doing to reverse this trend which seems to be breaking now somewhat decisively toward biden and i think that is moving a lot of the senate races. he would have to become a different person.

but he's stuck on some deuce ex mackinac or he and rudy try to cook one up again. knock on wood -- >> that is exactly where we are. >> traumatizes from two 2016. it sure doesn't look like it is going the president's way. >> i want to show you one of the ads that one of our former friends who is doing what mark just said cashing in, not really at all. but involved in the political advertising universe. this is in my opinion the best ad that the lincoln project has made. it is about what our little girls see in the president. let's watch. >> now imagine how she feels when she watches women being verbally attacked. >> what a stupid question that is. but i watch you a lot. you ask a lot of stupid

questions. >> maligned. belittled. >> i know you're not thinking. you never do. >> insulting. your daughters are absorbing that message right in front of your eyes. now imagine a different future for her. a future where the president who doesn't just value a female voice but chooses one to be his right-hand woman. a strong woman with compassion, unafraid to take on a bully. >> mr. vice president, i'm speaking. >> donna edwards, the debasement of women is, i think heilman joins this expression, not a bug but a feature of the trump presidency. i'm surprised it took so long for anyone to sort of put all of that together. that is trump in his own words, things he said about powerful women over his presidency and it could have gone on for 15 more minutes. what do you think? >> well, you know what, nicolle, it was reinforced last night at debate where he bullied savannah

guthrie, he talked over her and, he interrupted her. he was just a patent bully and i think women saw that and were disgusted by it. so the ad is the president's own words and his own actions and i think that when you look at the contrast with joe biden, where not only does he have kamala harris on his ticket, he demonstrates every time he talks about her, how much he respects her and her intellect, her capacity and you can't imagine donald trump doing that at all with any women, even the ones who are around him. in fact, last night, i think he made some reference to savannah guthrie being cute. how inappropriate was that for girls and women to see and hear. >> jonathan, let me give youa quick last word. other than begging women to like him, is there a plan for repackaging what donald trump is

and says and does before the election? >> his efforts so far haven't worked. we saw last night, he has taken the last week or so and flat out begging women to like him. and earlier this summer they aimed their law and order pitch at suburban women. but they've broken away from him dramatically. women across the board in every part of the country in part because of that, the rhetoric and the debasement of other members of their gender but issues of competency they feel they're suffered during this pandemic recession, the toll on women is certainly very lopsided in that. and also of course we've seen the president struggle with seniors too of both genders who have disapproved of the handling of the pandemic and he's had to spend a lot of time here in the closing weeks of this campaign trying to win them back with a message that hasn't gone anywhere. his campaign tells me his closing argument is about the economy, they point to the gallop pol from a few days ago that said 56% of americans

are -- feel they are better off today than four years ago despite the pandemic. they like that number. but it is not a number that the president has been able to stay with any insistency. the messaging is struggling to break through. and as a final point, look at geography, this week as he returned to the road, he hasn't gone just to florida and pennsylvania, he's had to play defense for states once firmly in his grapple. iowa and then georgia tonight. no republican candidate wants to be in georgia two and a half weeks before the election. >> that is true. donna he had wars, jonathan lemire and mark salter, congratulations on the book. i cried often. the luckiest man is out now. buy it and read it. when we come back. it is been exactly one year since the last time donald trump spoke with house speaker nancy pelosi, speaking of powerful women who scare him. she will be our guest in just a moment. we'll get her reaction to the bombshell report that rudy

giuliani has been identified as u.s. intelligence as a target of an active russian intelligence operation to spread disinformation about joe biden. and later in the hour, coronavirus cases are rising in nearly every state and spreading at an alarming rate in the upper midwest. experts that i sa experts that is a flashing red warning heading into winter. "deadline: white house" comes back after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. [ beeping ] [ engine revs ] uh, you know there's a 30-minute limit, right? tell that to the rain. [ beeping ] for those who were born to ride, there's progressive. understanding how to talk to your doctor about treatment options is key.

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this may be the understatement of century but in the past year a lot has happened. a deadly pandemic spread across this country. infecting more than 8 million

americans and taking from us more than 219,000. the president of the united states impeached over soliciting foreign interference in the 2020 election. designed to hurt joe biden. protests erupted across this country. part of a racial reckoning demanding racial justice and an end to police brutality and millions of acres of the state's along the west coast of this country were scorched in historic wildfires. quite a year. in that time, one year, the president and nancy pelosi have not spoken. today marks the one year anniversary of the last chat, the sitdown at the white house that turns so combative the speaker and his democratic colleagues walked out. but not before this image of speaker pelosi was snapped. she is pointing her finger at the president and she made clear when it came to donald trump, all roads lead to putin. joining us now, house speaker nancy pelosi. i remember where i was when that

photo came out. i was sitting in dinner with a family friend. and i remember when i saw that the white house had put it out, i said, oh, no, every woman will know exactly what is going on in this picture and i could tell by the faces of the men sitting next to trump, none of them are looking at you or him, they're looking at their hands and feet and anywhere but because they know he's a heel and you've got him. this is mommy sends the bad boy to his room. what do you think about the year that we've had and the fact that you and the president aren't on speaking terms? would you be open if he reached out to and tried to open that channel of conversation? >> well it woe depend on the what the purpose is. but actually waen pointing a finger. i was gesturing, with you, mr. president, all roads lead to putin. so it is funny about it is the wouse put out that photo. because we're not allowed to wear a smart watch in the room. it is all about -- they have all

of the technology. and they put that out. and i said, thank you very much, mr. president. but we left because there was no purpose to staying there. there was no truth coming from the other side. and it was really just unfortunate and it -- because all roads lead to putin. you could see that continuation in the revelations about rudy giuliani, when those inter actions with the russians were made known, were found out, they were made known to the white house. we don't know what that reaction was. but it is a continuation of all roads. now, you said some things that happened over the year. let me say without the two of us speaking person-to-person, but either through the airwaves or through the president's interimmediaty aries we were able to pass a huge omnibus bill to keep government open. working with secretary mnuchin then and able to work with the

trade representatives to improve vastly what the president thought would be a good trade agreement with russia -- excuse me with mexico and canada and we were able to affect a u.s./mexico/canada free trade agreement that overwhelmingly the democrats voted for. they usually don't. but he improved the bill -- the proposal and since then we've had four bipartisan overwhelmingly partisan covid-19 bills in the congress and in addition to other legislation. so it isn't as if it has to be person-to-person between the speaker and the president. it has to be knowledge for knowledge in terms of what we -- what our purpose is. what we know about the challenge we face and what the possible solutions are. how we strategically put something together that will get the votes and the signature to improve the lives of the american people. the last thing it is about is

whether the president speaks truth in any meeting in the white house worthy of attending. >> i mean, we know he does -- look, i take your point and you look at the fact that donald trump has nasty things to say about his own former national security advisers and chiefs of staff and secretary of state. it's clear that he saves his warm fuzzies for vladimir putin. on that topic, though, i want to press you about whether there are structural changes needed. it is clear that the intelligence community has found that the russians have succeeded in placing a russian asset as close to the president as one can get in rudy giuliani, his chief political adviser, his chief personal attorney and one of the most visible surrogates for donald trump is in the views of u.s. intelligence, a target of a russian disinformation campaign. that information is being

laundered by the president and coming out of his mouth on the campaign trail. are you worried about that dynamic in the last 20 days of a presidential campaign? >> no, i'm not worried. because it comes as no surprise that the president has been catering to vladimir putin and now as our intelligence we're following what was going on among some russians, they fell -- came upon rudy giuliani and again reported that to the white house. this is part of the impeachment as you mentioned earlier. they have been trying to blame the ukraine for what the russians did in the last election. diverted attention from what the russians are doing 24/7 in this election, constantly, and i do believe that the american people want to choose our president, they don't want vladimir putin to choose our next president. so everyone is very vigilant. that doesn't mean that they

aren't trying. but it does mean that people are voting. and for all of the poise that you could talk about, about this president and his connection to russia and maybe how they'll help him pay his debts, that the best antidote to the poison is the vote. antidote, vote. >> what is the latest staft -- of talks. you have worked on other covid relief bills with secretary mnuchin and what is the latest of the talks and are they ongoing. >> the secondary set they were willing to accept our language on the testing. but they had some changes. so we're still waiting to see what the changes are. because as you know, the devil and the angels are in the detail. as soon as i get it, which i haven't gotten it yet. then we'll talk about it on sunday since we haven't gotten it yet today.

probably on sunday. we're making progress. we have to have clarification in language because we have some big differences. that is to say when it comes to the amount that is one disagreement. but it is not just about the money, it is about the funding. and if the funding is about giving the president a slush fund for testing, a slush fund for health care providers, a slush fund for this, rather than a prescription for what we need, what scientists tell us to need to stop the spread of this virus. this is the core problem. everything else is a symptom. the way our economy goes down, whether our kids can't go to school, all of that, we have to centrally defeat the virus. and science has told us how. testing, tracing, treating, mask wearing, ventilation, separation, sanitation, all of it. and if we do that, we can help stop it and then if we could,

god willing, get a vaccine and i hope that will be soon and i pray it will be soon. some of them here say, you know, you have to choose faith or science. i say science is an answer to our prayers. so we pray that god's gift to us, that wisdom will be soon and that it will be used -- people will embrace it when it is safe and efficacious and even if it comes in the next five days under the presidency of the donald trump. but it is -- it is so sad. i don't know if you saw the debate in kentucky where amy mcgrath was talking to mcconnell saying why aren't are you addressing this problem and he laughed. he laughed. it is no laughing matter. mr. leader, it is no laughing matter. they have never taken this seriously. over and over again we've put testing into -- from the first

bill, testing, testing, testing. but it is clear that in order to get the job done, we have to prescribe a national strategic plan that is science-based and adequately funded. if the president -- the president knows when a president speaks his words mean a ton. and people trust. and we would hope that he would embrace a solution rather than mocking it or in the case of the majority leader, laughing at it. so again we're -- >> speaker pelosi -- >> we'll talk again probably on sunday. well we can't speak before we see where we've gone on the language. but i'll tell you one more thing and i'd like to make this point. >> sure. >> one of the other points of disagreement is how we treat low income working families. we have in our bill the earned income tax credit child tax credit, child and dependent tax credit which means substantial

assistance to america's work -- low income working families. working. this is a tax credit. and by the way, nicolle, it is something that will work with president bush in the most substantial way. he understood what it means to have a tax credit for america's working families. what they had, and especially at the low income level, what they have in her bill is a gigantic tax break for the wealthiest people in our country. and the cares act is good policy and nothing to do with coronavirus. it was retroactive. and now they're saying, no, we don't think we want to give a tax credit to america's working families and it makes a big difference. you see the articles now showing how many people are falling into poverty because there is no relief and we want that relief to happen. so that is another discussion that we're having. so far they have not been receptive.

but hopefully they will be when they see the difference that it will make. it's -- well forget compassion in terms of don't we care about lifting people out of poverty, it is stimulus to the economy. and everything that we have in there is coronavirus centric, honoring our heroes, crushing the virus, money in the pacts of the american people and then we have some things that are our democracy like the elections and census and the rest. but on these -- >> i want to ask you about -- >> we have our discussions continuing. >> i want to ask you about that last topic you just mentioned. donald trump and vice president pence have refused to say that they will honor, i just had mark salter on who worked for john mccain talking about john mccain's concession speech in 2008. we remember that he viewed that as one of the most important speeches of his life. bestowing all of the legitimacy and dignity on an incoming

president, our current president now has said that he may not accept the results. what is congress doing if it is to open up lines of communications, to allies, to reassure them we'll get our bleep together. if it is to open channels for whistleblowers at the pentagon or the state department. what are you doing to support the other agencies of the executive branch if donald trump puts unprecedented strain on them? >> well, let me just say this, that is probably not something i would discuss openly here. but i think everyone is prepared for the worst, prepared for the worst but hoping for the best. you referenced john mccain's speech, were john mccain on the ballot now, would that george bush or mitt romney, and think different. i say to the republicans, take back your party. this isn't who you are. if so if somebody is saying i'm

not going to accept the peaceful transfer of power and saying i can't reject qanon and those kind of things, there is something wrong here. so there are a lot of interests ready to be helpful. but the fact is the big vote is it. this is what is -- and you see people turning out. we think our campaigns are doing a great job mobilizing the vote. but a lot of this is spontaneous. it is organic. people coming out to vote because they know that their lives are at stake. this is a health vote. you see what they're trying to do in the court to overturn the affordable care act, pre-existing conditions, you see how they have neglected and laughed at doing a solution, crushing the virus and so people know vote your health. vote your health. and they're turning out. so the mobilization is working, the messaging is very clear. that is what motivates people to vote. and frankly the more the

people -- the more the president does his tweets the more money we raise in order to get out the message and mobilize the troops. so we're ready for a big vote. and that would be the best antidote, a big vote, antidote. but nonetheless we suspect that he has some skull dugery that he wanted engage in. and again he want -- we're working in many ways in that regard and including my just win operation, to make sure he understands he's not going to be president because of the vote in the house of representatives. he thinks that's his light at the end of the tunnel. and i keep saying to him, that light is a train coming right at you. don't come down this path. just accept whoever wins, accept the verdict of the american people. the decision of the american people. so, again, i'm hopeful in our negotiations. >> you're saying something that i heard from so many -- yeah.

what i keep hearing from democratic leaders is that the size of the victory really is important to the peaceful transfer of power and i hear you saying that loud and clear. madam speaker, to be continued. thank you so much for spending some time with us today on all of these topics. we're grateful. >> my pleasure. >> coronavirus cases are rising in nearly every state with alarming spikes in the upper midwest. our next guest warns that what is happening there will soon be happening nationwide. "deadline: white house" returns after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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for all of us. vote yes on prop 16. sen months into the coronavirus pandemic here in the us. we're quickly approaching a death toll of 220,000 souls. and we've officially surpassed 8 million total infections including our current commander-in-chief. 1 million of the cases were just in the last three weeks. yesterday this country added more tan 65,000 new cases. our most since july. hospitals in the upper midwest where cases are soaring are preparing for a surge of patients. wisconsin, idaho, utah and montana shattered their own single day case records this week. and north and south dakota are adding more new cases per capita than any other states. as our next guest, a expert in minnesota says in today's "new york times," quote, what is happening in the upper midwest

is just a harbinger of things to co come. we're joined with dr. michael olster home from research and policy at the university of minnesota. i think it was about ten days ago that you redirected my attention to the daily number of new cases and where it is coming to. i had looked at that every morning night and throughout march and april and may and june and then i had a false sense of security as summer ended. we're now so far above where dr. fauci told us where we should be before we contemplate taking our foot off the case. he wants 10,000 cases. we're six times that. what is going on. >> we're in this journey with the virus. and while it seems like seven months is a lifetime, we're still in the third inning of this game. the next six to 12 weeks in particular are going to be very, very difficult. the case numbers at 65,000 new

cases aday are going to grow substantially. and then when we get into the cold weather season, where we'll have a lot more indoor air exposure, the holidays are coming, a time when we know from an inflew enza standpoint, we see a lot of transmission around the country. so we have to brace for this and help educate the public of what they could do to reduce their risk. >> chris christie, who was a close trump adviser, his debate prepper, he was at the white house for debate prep around the time that the white house outbreak took at least 34 people victim to coronavirus infections that we know about. he said this morning on "good morning america" that he was vigilant in terms of mask wearing and social distancing for seven months. he slipped up for four days and he spent in the white house and ended up in the icu for seven days. that seems like a microcosm of what just a quick trip home for the holidays or a quick slip up

in mask waearing could do to someone, landing them in the emergency room. you talked about pandemic anger. how do we turn those before we end up with a country of chris christies. >> well, you know, i think the challenge we have is turn it before we're forced it turn on our own loved ones start to die. that is a major motivating factor to sense the reality of what is happening. we don't want that to be the reason people make a change. frankly i'm concerned that the public right now instead of swinging toward the distancing, making sure they're not in large crowds, inside, whether it be a family reunion, weddings, funerals, et cetera, they're just going the opposite way. and so we could keep trying to get the message out there. but i will promise them that they will begin to change their ways unfortunately it may ome be after their own loved ones start to die from this. >> what is the future look like for us?

donald trump keeps lying about masks, as 85% of the people who wear them get covid, which is a lie. he talks about being cured. there is no cure. what are the interventions and what are the potential treatments on the horizon and are they a mirage? is a vaccine a sure thing? >> well let's just take the vaccine as what will ultimately be a very important tool. but it is not going to be the be all end all. at this point if we had a vaccine that was even 50% to 60% effective we could consider that a victory given the kind of virus that this coronavirus is. the big challenge we have is you hear day in and day out people are skeptical of the vaccine and i actually believe that the fda will do a good job of bringing us a vaccine that is same and effective and not making it available until it is ready. but if they do, if only 50% of the population uses the vaccine, which is the data now shows in our communities, is what it

likely to be the case, and if the vaccine is only 50% to 60% effective, only 25% to 30% of the population will be protected from vaccine. if you add that up with the 10% to 12% of the population alreadyalready infected and have some protection, that still gets up to 35% to 40% of the population protected. when you look forward then into next year, you could see we're still dealing with this virus for some time to come. and what i worry about is americans have given up on this virus. they're done with it. unfortunately the virus is not done with us. and so we have a choice. we could either come to live with this and understand what distancing means, what it means not to be in these large crowds what, it means to mask, what it means to understand that saying you love someone may mean not seeing them as opposed to seeing them and until we understand that, we're just going to continue to see this pandemic go on for a potentially many, many more weeks and months ahead.

>> when ied in the white house for george bush, he was focused on threat of one of the bird flus and we would go on in saturday and drill and i tried to get out of one day an the staff at the cdc and the staff of dr. fauci said the single most aspect we're practicing is public communication. you just articulated. you said people are done with this. how much do you attribute that we have a president that is still in deny of mask wearing social distancing and the basic threat that it poses? >> well i think it surely is an important part of it. but i also have to give us a sense of reality. look at europe right now. yesterday was the first day since april where there were more cases per population in europe than in the united states. now, remember, this is an area that had done such a good job of driving the case numbers down by these forced distancing activities, you know, helping to

reduce large crowds and so forth and they did that right through the end of august. then all of a sudden they let the brake up quickly and you saw what happened. it came back in a large way. so i think this is not just a u.s. issue, it is an international issue. but nonetheless u.s. leadership here is critical and right now the message that people are getting is very, very mixed. one day they hear that oh, you should just let it run wild to develop this concept of herd immunity and the next day they hear, no, you don't want that. if we have a national leadership that was bipartisan, that was sciencist and politicians and the media altogether, i think we could do much more to help the public understand this. and right now they are coop fused and that makes it easier to say i'm doing everything i'm told to do so i'm fine when it is not. >> you mentioned herd immunity. that is in the news and communicated because the white

house embraced this doctrine of no more shutdowns, but to let the virus run rampant through 60% to 80% of the population. what would that look like? >> millions of deaths. many, many cases and the economy that would collapse. it would be horrible. and i would consider it immora