with alex witt." we have 16 days to go, the cash and the controversy stemming from the president's last rally. meantime, fact checking getting tense on the sunday talk shows. >> absolutely he did, jake. >> no, he didn't. >> he said it in a tweet. >> he referred to the pres -- i have looked it up. he referred to the president's long history of xenophobia and racism. he did not call the partial travel bans from china and europe -- >> soft joe biden. >> and there's evidence of that. plus, we've got shattering the records. how well early voting systems are working. and could it really happen? a new push in washington to get covid relief done before election day. and we begin this hour with the race to the white house just 16 days to go. a busy day on the trail with both candidates stomapping in critical states. tonight the president will hold a rally in nevada.

and this comes as trump faces growing criticism for holding those packed rallies with little to no masks or social distancing. this as coronavirus cases are spiking in several states. today the president's daughter-in-law defending his actio actions in downplaying the severity of the virus. >> the reality is i go -- >> there are more than 220,000 dead americans, laura. there's literally no objective health expert who thinks that the president has done a good job with this pandemic. we have the highest death rate -- >> that's not true. >> in the entire world. here's what i'll tell you. we are coming out of it. we are seen the death rate decrease dramatically. we also have a huge population whenever you want to compare us to canada, compare us to europe. we're doing actually much better than europe is. >> no, we're not. >> not only with the virus but financially. we are. these are numbers. you can go look them up. >> i have. >> and meantime, pete buttigieg making the case for biden today saying he is the candidate who can unify this country.

>> what we need to turn the page from is a president who is incapable of handling a public health crisis that has now cost almost a quarter of a million american lives, thrown our economy into a total wreckage and has clearly no plan to do anything about it. so, yeah, let's turn the page. and we have a very clear choice between two very different futures for this country. and any differences that we have -- remember when everybody was saying how can the democrats possibly unify? look how unified we are now. you've got democrats from across the spectrum from the left to the center joining within independents and republicans because we can all see what's at stake. the clock is ticking on whether house democrats and white house officials can actually make a deal on coronavirus relief before the election. today house speaker nancy pelosi says she is optimistic. >> if you don't get that agreement in the 48-hour

deadline, what happens? >> here's the thing, the 48 only relates to if we want to get it done before the election, which we do. >> we have a team of reporters and analysts following the latest for us this hour. and we're going to begin with nbc's carol lee in washington. there's new reaction to the president's rally in michigan where he targeted the state's governor, prompting those "lock her up" chants from the crowd. what's the latest on that? >> yeah, alex, the president's coming under some criticism for attacking gretchen whitmer about her handling of the coronavirus, criticizing some of the restrictions in michigan because of the pandemic. that's what prompted these chants of "lock her up." the president essentially doing this just recently after the governor was the target according to the justice department of an alleged plot to kidnap her. take a listen to what the president had to say. >> what you're doing in michigan has been amazing. now, you got to get your governor to open up your state. [ cheers and applause ]

and get your schools open. get your schools open. the schools have to be open, right? [ crowd chanting] >> look her up, [ laughter ] lock them all up. >> now the president really contributing to that at the end there saying "lock them all up." his daughter-in-law this morning saying he was not trying to be threatening at all to the governor. the governor whitmer, however, was on "meet the press" saying she did indeed feel like the president was inciting some potential threats against her. here's what they had to say. >> he wasn't doing anything, i don't think, to provoke people to threaten this woman at all. he was having fun at a trump rally. and quite frankly, there are bigger issues than this right

now for everyday americans. people want to get the country reopened. they want to get back to work. >> it's incredibly disturbing that the president of the united states ten days after a plot to kidnap, put me on trial, and execute me, ten days after that was uncovered, the president is at it again and inspiring and incentivizing and inciting this kind of domestic terrorism. it is wrong. it's got to end. it is dangerous not just for me and my family but for public servants everywhere. >> so there you heard the governor calling on the president to stop this sort of rhetoric. alex, as you know and everyone knows, this is something that's unlikely for the president to do. this has been his style, his approach, since he was campaigning in 2016. he's continued that throughout his presidency. and now that we're in the closing weeks of the 2020 campaign, i don't think anybody expects him to really tone it

down. if anything, he's going to be ramping up, particularly when it comes to being on the campaign trail, he'll head to california today to do some fundraising and then have another rally later today in reno. >> to your point, carol, the more cheers he gets when he behaves and speaks that way, the louder and more emphatic he will get in that style, that, to your point, he has always demonstrated. joe biden is expected to appear in battleground, north carolina, and that is where the president won by a small margin in 2016 and is planning yet another trip there on wednesday. it is his 16th visit there in this election cycle. here's a look at the latest north carolina poll though. biden is out front with a narrow lead, got six points on him. ali, welcome to you, my friend. what can we expect today? >> alex, a lot of things that feel normal 16 days out from election day out here on the campaign trail, joe biden coming to a critical battleground state here in north carolina, a place

where voters have already started voting. over a million of them have already cast their ballots. and he's here reminding the rest of the state that if they have to vote, this has been part of the closing pitch for democrats across the board so that joe biden is coming here with just over two weeks until election day. that part feels pretty normal. what doesn't is take a look behind me, this event is a drive-through event. we're seeing voters show up in their cars. this is the way that democrats have been campaigning biden and harris in the event that their events are open to the public, they're telling people to come by car enforcing them wearing masks, generally keeping people away from each other as the precautions that they're undertaking to stop the spread of the virus. these are the things that have allowed joe biden to actually get back out on the campaign trail while also doing so safely. but what doesn't feel normal about this moment aside from the way the event looks is that we're not seeing joe biden or his running mate kamala harris do the typical four or five states in a day. instead, biden is taking it

state by state, sometimes doing virtual events in other states to sometimes technically cross state lines more than once in a day. but, at the same time, the pace of the campaign is something that his allies were pressed about early this morning on the sunday shows. listen to what senator chris said on sunday. >> why is he taking a day off with less than three days to go before the election? >> joe biden has campaigned tirelessly, but he has campaigned safely. but i agree with you that we shouldn't take anything for granted in these last few weeks, and it is still possible for president trump to win re-election. that's why i say don't focus on the national polls, focus on getting out and voting. >> i think it's pretty much the word opposite of the word tireless to take a day off, but let's move on. >> alex, that message that you heard chris coons espousing though, this idea of take nothing for granted. we've seen a lot of people in the biden campaign and biden's

orbit trying to push back against the idea of complacency. we've seen this race stay, frankly, pretty stable with biden having a lead of some kind in the polls. for democrats, though, that idea of voters feeling like this thing may be locked up early, that's what keeps them awake at night. so the biden campaign really trying to stave off this idea of complacency even biden's campaign manager could've got a memo yesterday to supporters that basically tells people we've got to campaign as if they're trailing. alex? >> ali, thank you so much for keeping an eye on things. we'll be heading back to you certainly an hour from now when biden is front and center. thanks. joining me now, political reporter for axios. and the chief white house correspondent for the "new york times" and co-author of the new book "the man who ran washington: the life and times of james a. baker iii." both are nbc news contributors. that looks like a really good book. i'm going to have to dig into that one, peter. is your paper at the "new york times" reporting on, biden has

maintained a nearly 2-1 advantage on the air waves for months. his dominance is pronounced in michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin where he spent about 53 million to mr. trump's 17 million over the past month largely on ads assailing the president's handling of the virus as well as the economy and taxes. how much of a difference is that making, do you think, in the campaign, in the polling numbers we're seeing, peter? >> obviously television advertising's still bread and butter to any presidential campaign. we did see hillary clinton do the same last time against donald trump. she did outspend him on the air and obviously it didn't end up proving that the ticket to victory. so by itself you can't count on tv advertising to be the only way to get there. but these are rather stark numbers even compared to four years ago. it's a sign of how robust the biden campaign is doing in terms of fundraising and how dominant

they are on the air waves. the president tries to make up for that by what we call free media. he does and says so many things, he's on the news all the time without having to pay for it obviously. that in some ways counterbalances the paid media that the biden campaign relies on. but the numbers are the numbers. and as i think it was just carol just saying just now -- or actually i think it was the other reporter saying that these numbers have been really stable for a long time. so whatever trump is doing is not making a dent in this substantial lead that biden has on the national level. does that mean he can't come back? of course not. but this biden campaign is heading into its final stretch with a remarkably strong advantage on the money and tv front. >> absolutely. and you're right, that was ali reporting there. so, alexei, just at the president's rallies, we are still hearing the "lock her up"

chants. trump seems to be using his platform to play his greatest hits. we have new reporting from "the washington post," in recent days the debates advises between a lack of coordination between the national party which controls much of the ground operation and the campaign which has been buying most of the ads and directing surrogate travel. how stark is this divide between the president's re-election messaging and the republican party's strategy? >> well, happy sunday. it's good to see both of you. and thanks for having me, alex. this is president trump as we've come to know him. he stays on the message that he wants to push forward to his base of supporters no matter really what others are advising him. we've seen the way in which president trump has learned to talk about anything other than the coronavirus pandemic while it's ongoing. we've seen him try to shift the economy, we've seen him shift to civil unrest and his law and order message around the

protests. we've seen him talk about different things that aren't related to what's actually going on. but now what we see as he's sort of heading for these dire re-election prospects in just a couple of weeks, we see how, to your point, he's relying on this 2016 playbook. he's increasingly relying on culture wars, he's airing these grievances about all these things that he feels are doing wrong to him. he's not so much talking to voters about the issues that they care about. and we also see after he's failed to brand joe biden and really senator kamala harris, we see how he reaches for other political opponents like governor gretchen whitmer in michigan and tries to create foils out of them. it's a lot easier to try to run against someone else than it is to try to run against yourself and your own record, especially at a moment like this. >> do you get a sense that voters are hip to his game, if you will? they figured this out and that they're not getting what they

need to cast their vote, those very few that remain undecided? >> look, i talked to a lot of voters who supported barack obama in 2012 and switched to donald trump in 2016 throughout the upper midwest. and while a lot of those are sticking to trump, those who are flipping to biden kind of feel like the jig is up with president trump. they feel like they're going through this pandemic, they're going through financial struggles. they don't hear that reality reflected in the president's rhetoric and they don't feel like they can trust what he says. they don't trust what he says and they don't like the way he's talking about things. and before that was an asset. people liked that he was a strong guy who they felt like told them like it is. >> at that point he was not a politician when he was speaking and some people had found that refreshing. trying to recreate that co

come-from-behind victory. georgia, iowa, 16 now in north carolina, what are your thoughts on that? is he behind, is he in danger in those states, and therefore that's why the focus? >> yeah. it's really interesting, except for today in nevada where he spent the night and he's fundraising in california, he has been entirely playing on his own turf. he's been playing defense on the states that he won in 2016 rather than trying to convert any over that he didn't win last time. there was early on this hope in the trump campaign that maybe they could convert minnesota, for instance, or some other states that were close four years ago and bring them into the fold and increase his electoral college total. now in fact they're only playing defense trying to hold onto what they had four years ago. and it's a pretty tough map in order to get to a victory a second time around. he cannot lose all three of those midwestern states that he picked up last time, michigan,

pennsylvania, and wisconsin. in fact, if he loses michigan and wisconsin and still picks up pennsylvania he still loses, if he can't hold onto arizona, which looks vulnerable right now. there are so many more paths at the moment for biden to take away states than there are for trump to eek out yet another electoral college victory given that he's not very popular in the popular vote right now. so i think he's playing defense and he's trying to basically, as alexei said, replicate 2016 in a lot of ways. but it's four years later and it's a very different set of circumstances. >> what does it say to you, peter, that the president on his schedule today, he's going to newport beach, california. that is orange county. granted, yes, a seat was flipped there from dane rohrabacher. but the fact that he's even spending time there, what does that say to you? >> well, it's remarkable he's doing fundraising just two weeks before the election. he's trailing rather significantly biden's camp in

terms of money and air time. and i can't remember the last time an incumbent president was still raising money basically this close to the election. that usually at this point you have your bank pretty well full and your spending not raising. i think it says that he's trying to come from behind. he got knocked off for at least a week basically because of his own covid case. he's coming on strong now. he's showing a lot of energy obviously for somebody of his age who had such a tough disease. that may reflect medication or his treatment from the doctors. but it's very late in the process at this point to be doing what he's doing. >> there's also reporting from axios which i know you're familiar with about the finger-pointing in the campaign, writing the trump campaign is filled with internal blaming and prespinning of a potential loss given the daily barrage of bleak headlines. one adviser said you can't heal a patient who doesn't want to take the diagnosis. how much, alexei, is this on

trump? >> well, those close to him who are paid to believe in his re-election efforts and help him, believe that he is making their job a lot harder. and that's because of what we're talking about. in part, alex, this disconnect between the president's message and the larger message from the republican party. it also goes to the way that the president thinks about getting re-elected and thinks about his way of getting re-elected and who he needs to appeal to, which is an increasingly small group of those base supporters from 2016 who were reporting really speaks for itself. those closest to the president are sounding the alarm telling us at axios that they think that he's toast. of course he can still win this thing. we saw sow he won in 2016 when a lot of people thought that wasn't possible. but now things are a lot different. the people around him had experience from 2016 and they're still saying that things are headed in the wrong direction. >> hey, peter, to you real quick, when the finger-pointing starts, does that mean it's all

over? >> well, it means that a lot of people feel like it's almost over or could be over. we shouldn't count this out before it is, but there's a lot of early voting going on. we're already a quarter of the ways into this election day, which is a different way of thinking about it. and when you see this kind of finger-pointing you see the people on a campaign who are smelling bad result and beginning to look for what happens the day after. doesn't mean it'll end that way. you saw this a little over four years ago but it does tell you where they think the campaign is at this point. early voting certainly underway in the state of texas, and so is the souls to the polls get out to vote event. that's where black churches are bringing out kong grants to the polls. welcome, it's good to see you, priscilla. so what's going on there today? >> reporter: alex, good afternoon. a very sunny and windy day here in texas, but a good day for

early voting. it is the first sunday of early voting, and you mention those congregations across the country that are going to be doing "souls to the polls" today, getting those folks out to vote. but it will look a little differently in the age of covid. and i'm actually here in waco with the president of the waco naacp. you are at the forefront of organizing this year's "souls to the polls." talk to me about why it was important to do this event even as there is a pandemic going on. >> as we all know here at this point in the life of our country, this is an historic election, and this is an election that will literally affect the lives of people in our country. and so as the naacp, we are done dying. we are instead going to vote, and there are challenges that are being placed in front of us. we are going to do what they are afraid that we're going to do. and that is we're going to vote, we're going to vote, we're going

to vote. >> but it is going to look a little differently this year. there aren't going to be necessarily those big buses of folks in their sunday best leaving straight from church to come here to vote. talk to me about how you are doing things differently in the age of covid. >> we are in the midst of a pandemic. we are going to be voting in a safe manner. people are going to be coming and they're going to remain in their cars as we move people into the vote center so that they can still socially distance, so that they can still wear their masks. in times past, we've had a sit-down dinner right after the voting, and we've had a big parking lot party. any year we are going to be providing sacked barbecue lunches that people will pick up and go with after they have voted. and so we are working hard to maintain a safe environment for people, while, at the same time, ensuring that they get their chance to vote. >> and then my last question for

you, texas has seen some very high early-vote numbers. waco, this county itself actually saw a record number of folks turning out on that first day of early voting. what do you expect to see today on the first sunday of early voting? >> we expect to see those numbers continue to rise. people are highly engaged. they want to vote in this election. and despite every obstacle that has been put in front of them, they are determined to vote. so i expect those numbers to continue to be high. >> thank you. and, alex, i should point out we spent a lot of our time this week in harris county, the largest county in texas. but there are also large numbers being seen in these smaller, more rural areas, at least a handful of folks have already come by asking when polls are going to be open, only that these polls aren't set to open for another couple of hours. >> the enthusiasm's great. former president obama made a pitch for joe biden this past

week without naming the current president he served up quite an indictment. you're going to want to hear that, next.

a familiar face will be heading out on the campaign trail alongside joe biden this week. former president barack obama is gearing up to join his former vice president in philadelphia, it'll happen wednesday. it'll be obama's first campaign event for biden, and joining me now is nbc news political analyst robert gibbs, former white house press secretary under president obama. robert, good to see you. pennsylvania is a critical swing state in this election. you know it was won by former president obama and vice president in both '08 and '12. so what does it tell you that president obama is on the trail there, and do you think he's going to be able to bring pennsylvania to biden? >> well, it's a great question. i think pennsylvania is clearly the lynchpin of this upper midwestern strategy. i think democrats probably feel

better and feel pretty good about places like michigan and wisconsin if you look at some of the public polling. i think pennsylvania's clearly the lynchpin. that's why you see one of the democratic party's most popular surrogates heading there in barack obama. he can reach base voters, he can reach swing voters. really important to get him out there on the trail. he's pretty active on zoom and over digital communications. and now this is in that part of the campaign that you see him physically out there making the case for vice president biden. >> and, look, to your point, barack obama appeared on "pod save america" this week. let's take a listen to what he said about joe biden. >> it's great to look at policy, and what were their ten-point plans on this or that. but a lot of it is what's their basic character, are they people who instinctively care about the

underdog? are they people who are able to see the world through somebody else's eyes and stand in their shoes? are they people who are instinctively generous in spirit? and that is who joe is. >> robert, what you just heard there, do you they waat the pre time -- interpret that as an endorsement. and how much does president obama really want to be back out on the campaign trail? do you think he enjoys it? >> i do think he enjoys it and my guess is he misses it. and he'd love to go to a big rally and get people fired up. i have no doubt that he yearns for a bit of that particularly with the calendar. i don't know that that's any more than indictment of trump or an endorsement of biden. i think what it means for joe

biden is he has that empathy, he has that character. and any comments that you make right now want to be implicitly supporting your candidate and contrasting the person you're running against. i think the effective thing that president obama can do, we talk a lot about undecided voters. we're getting closer and closer to this election. and some group of undecided voters is never going to make up their mind and they're not going to vote. right now those lean voters, if you moved from undecided to, i think i'm for biden, the president, the former president can have a character reference for joe biden, a job reference for joe biden, and can walk people through why they need to go from lean to voting for him. so i think it's an important moment for him to be out on the trail and an important message to reach those voters that are just making up their minds in this last little bit of the campaign. >> how many people do you think really are still undecided? and let me back that up by asking the question -- >> probably like six. >> exactly.

in "usa today" i think it was this morning had an article that said it's less than 5%. and any number of other articles have said that. how unique is that? >> well, i don't know that it's -- well, first of all, i don't know that it's tremendously unique. and the nbc poll a week or so ago showed exactly what you said, just a tiny, tiny number of undecideds. we've had politics on steroids for the last four years. it's hard in many places to not have an opinion about what's going on. but i think it's that lean section of the vote on either side that's really, really important. how are you motivating somebody that isn't quite there but is part of that way in the journey there? how do you nudge them? who's out there making the case? what are you talking about? and so that's why i think the vice president is activating the former president at this moment. some people say, oh, he could have done this two months ago.

no, i think it's an important point to do this right now when you've got that sliver of the vote that's leaning and how do you nudge it in that direction. >> yeah. you don't dilute the impact. he's going to make a big impact in these last couple weeks. people are eager to see them, if they're joe biden supporters. senator chris coons was asked formerly of the veeps schedule. >> take a listen to joe biden. he had a whole day with any public events with less than three weeks to go. >> well, jake, joe biden takes no votes for granted. both joe biden and kamala harris have crisscrossed the country campaigning in critical decisive swing states. >> not the way that president trump is campaigning. >> there is this new article in "the washington post" that says that -- rather "the hill" rather that suggests the team biden new strategy is to run out the clock. is that the right strategy? or should biden be out on the campaign trail more, especially as you want to counter president

trump as he ramps up his schedule? >> well, look. let me start by saying i don't think the strategy is to run out the clock. i don't think anybody that has been involved in this campaign thinks the best thing to do is stand over to the side and dribble the wall. you saw this from the biden campaign. they're worried about complacency. they're putting out that memo that says, look, this race isn't 12 points, this race isn't 10 points. don't pay attention to the national polls because that's not how we pick presidents. the single most event that will happen in this campaign between now and the dawning of election day is that debate on thursday. that's what more people than any of these rallies is going to see. and so making sure that you're locked tight on that and synced up on what you're going to do and say is far more important than being in a swing state right now. 70 million people are going to tune into that event. it is the single last event that

likely has an audience large enough to change the trajectory of this race. i think they're worried as much as anything about democrats and lean biden voters who are looking at the polls nationally. again, not how we select presidents in thinking it's up by ten, he's up by 12, we don't really are have to go stand in line in the rain, we don't have to go stand in line when it's cold in the morning, we don't have to get out there on election day. and i have no doubt they're focused on it. and i think that air waves advantage is important too. you're going to turn on your tv at some point today and joe biden is going to be campaigning right there on the channel. >> he's going to be in about 30 minutes. i'm glad we got this interview in. and let me just say my colleague kristen welker is going to rock moderating that debate on thursday. good to see you marvelous as always. they are the people who loved president trump's qanon

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a new poll shows growing concern about threats of physical violence or armed militias at polling places. 23% of all voters expressing this fear, the numbers are higher among voters of color. and joining me now rick stengel, msnbc political analyst and also served as under-secretary of state in the obama administration. i know that you have a lot to say on this on twitter. you're pinning it on the president's tacit support of militia groups and white extremists. do you think the president can actually control these groups or has the proverbial horse left the barn on that one? >> that's a tough question, alex. great to be with you. i mean, i'd separate the question into two parts. there's a good reason that african-american voters feel like their vote is being suppressed, because it is and it has historically been.

and you have republicans trying to call black voters, trying to trick black voters into not voting. they have plenty of the good reasons to feel that their votes are being suppressed. the question about these extremist groups and trump activating them, it's hard to say, we don't know that much about them. but of course they're conspiracy theorists so they see that trump wears a red tie or a blue tie that he's signaling them. qanon and these groups are rejoicing that trump did not explicitly criticize them in the town hall. they look at that as a tacit support. and that's what's so dangerous and so, outside of every tradition in our country that you have the leader of the united states, the chief law enforcement officer of the united states giving tacit appeal to these groups rather than condemning them. so that is also the reason to circle back to the first part of

your question why voters of color, hispanic voters, black voters, feel less than secure, or less secure than they should in voting in this election. >> you bring up qanon on which there are some pretty strong views. let's take a look at a short clip from kate snow. >> hillary clinton is on video. there is raw footage of her out there torturing a little girl. >> so if the former secretary of state were sitting here and said i have never harmed a child, that is not a real video, it's a fake video, you would -- >> i would look her straight in the eyes and tell her that she's a liar. >> this professor studies qanon and says it's no accident they use the hashtag #save our children to draw women in. >> where are people getting this stuff? >> well, alex, to backtrack for one second, i write about -- in times of uncertainty, conspiracy theorists flourish. in times of health crises and

pandemics, conspiracy theories flourish. that's part of what we're seeing as the rise of qanon. feel feel tremendously insecure. some of these ideas go back to kind of early history. people who are very big supporters of the second amendment because they always feel that the deep state is coming to inflict violence on them, conspiracy theories about black helicopters. this is a descent of that. and it's a direct descendant when we saw a man went to a pizza parlor in washington, d.c. because he was told that hillary clinton kept children imprisoned in the basement of that pizza parlor. it's just hard to imagine someone who might believe that. but people are feeling tremendously insecure. i'm not excusing it. in fact, what we saw in this past week, we saw facebook, twitter saying that they were going to be taking down all groups affiliated with qanon,

which is exactly the right thing to do. they violate service of those platforms. >> you say you're not excusing it. i do appreciate the fact you're trying to put a logical, rational explanation to it. good luck with that. i do want to take a look at your tweet on the president's response in which you quote guess who's loved trump's denial of qanon. qanon of course. what troubles you the most, rick, about how the president answers these questions about qanon and white supremacist groups as well? >> what troubles me the most, and i think i hopefully speak for all americans is that we want the president of the united states to be the gold standard on truthfulness, the gold standard on trying to bring the country together around these great american ideas that we all believe in. and instead he is supporting groups that undermine the fabric of the country. he is supporting groups that are preaching violence. he's supporting groups with

outlandish conspiracy theories that you wouldn't even want your children to know. it's just something that we've never ever heard before. in fact, the longer he's in office, the more these kind of conspiracy theories will flourish and the more they will undermine the fabric of america. >> listen, if anybody wants to take a further deep dive into this they can look at your book "disinformation wars." rick stengel, good to see you. and i'd love to come over and peruse that library behind you. i am dying to see all those books you got. anyway, thank you very much. good to see you. >> thank you. it is an appeals court ruling that could possibly decide the race in a key battleground state and possibly the country. that's next. try. that's next.

16 days until election night, and several battleground states are in a legal war over mail-in ballots. in michigan this weekend the court of appeals blocked a 14-day extension, which now means all absentee ballots must arrive by election day or they won't be counted. this is what dnc chair tom perez had to say about that decision. >> democracy works better when everyone can cast their ballot and every ballot is counted. we're in an unprecedented pandemic here. and courts in other states have allowed votes that were postmarked by election day to be counted as long as they're received within a short period of time of election day. this court did it differently.

i disagree categorically with that ruling. >> joining me now is the director of election law at the ohio state university, ned foley. welcome to you. so let's get into some similar extensions which have been overturned in wisconsin and indiana as well. give me the legal explanation by these decisions. >> i think we're seeing a clash in constitutional values. the conservative judges, and there are more of them now than there used to be, believe in original intent and strict interpretation. that's leading to these rulings that say that the deadlines set by state statutes must control. an older theory of jurisprudence starting in the 1960s said that you should interpret the constitution expansively to promote voting rights. and so a lot of these lawsuits were filed on the assumption that the old jurisprudence would prevail. but newer judges are reverting

to this original intent theory to block these lawsuits. >> can i just ask, it came to mind back in the day late 1700s, were citizens allowed to vote by mail? were they allowed to have somebody carry a ballot for them? to vote by mail, were they allowed to have somebody carry a ballot for them, or did they have to go in person? i don't know. >> we've changed our voting methods over the decades and centuries. we first got vote by mail in the civil war, so it has been around for a while. but your point about history is really crucial here, because the constitution didn't protect voting rights robustly originally. we needed the 15th amendment to make sure the voting wasn't discriminatory based on race, we needed the 19th amendment to make sure women had equal rights to the ballot. so the constitution as written isn't as protected as it should be or we would like it to be, and the court, in the '60s, '70 approximate and '80s, it was

more than they would allow, but this new interpretation is cutting back on the jurisprudence of what the courts are willing to do. >> i appreciate that detailed answer to a fairly simple question. thank you for the lesson right there, professor. let me ask you what this means for votes that arrive late or maybe are postmarked by election day. do we know, will they count? >> i think if voters want to make sure their ballots count, if they're going to use vote by mail, they should be doing it now as soon as they can. because i do think there is a risk that these statutory deadlines are going to control, and in many of these states, they say the ballots must arrive by election day. so in the case you cited, the appeals court said we're sticking with that statutory deadline. we're not going to permit an extension. so to protect themselves, voters should do this as early as they can.

>> so voters' rights, political groups as well, they're already pushing back. they're saying this decision is voter suppression. what is your reaction to this? is there a legal argument that could support their claims and prove voter suppression? >> i think there is a legal argument on the voter rights side. it's based on these court precedents that are decades old now, but i think there is a strong risk, whether everyone likes it or not, that that view is not going to prevail. i think the newly conservative supreme court is going to be more restrictive, so relying on court decisions to protect voting rights is very risky right now. again, whether we like it or not, i think that's the new reality. >> 16 days to go, ned. is there any chance that any of these recent decisions can get overturned in time for election day? >> well, the u.s. supreme court is deciding some key cases at the moment. they've got a case from pennsylvania and another one from wisconsin that are at the

u.s. supreme court right now, and of course we won't know what they do until they do it. but, again, it may be rulings that are not favorable to voting rights. so voters have to protect themselves as best they can, and that's by voting as early as you can. >> okay. ned foley, lots of glat tareat takeaway from this conversation. thank you. the dark points of the pandemic, our most notable expert says he knows when that's going to happen. you're going to hear that next. s going to happen. you're going to hear that next

now to the new facts of the coronavirus pandemic, cases are on the rise in almost every state. florida recorded its highest daily increase in two months, adding more than 4,000 cases yesterday. in new mexico, coronavirus hospitalizations are up 100% this month. a new warning from an epidemiologist, cases will likely get worse in the coming weeks. >> we do have vaccines and

therapeutics coming down the pike, but when you actually look at the time period for that, the next 6 to 12 weeks are going to be the darkest of the entire pandemic. vaccines will not become available in any meaningful way until early to third quarter of next year. >> wow. and then in europe, another wave of coronavirus restrictions, paris bars and restaurants must shut down now by the new 9:00 p.m. curfew. londoners are banned from socializing inside, and face masks are now required in italy. here in the u.s., north dakota is now one of the highest coronavirus cases per capita in the state, the state adding 716 new cases today, bringing the cases to almost 32,000 cases, and that's a state with a population of just over 760,000. they are running out of icu beds. >> gary, i welcome you. still no statewidem mandate

there? is that being discussed? >> reporter: hi, alex. folks here in the spring and summer thought they dodged a bullet when it came to coronavirus. there were not very many cases, but it's a different story today. there are more than 700 cases of coronavirus every single day and 40% of north dakota have tested positive for coronavirus since this pandemic has begun. the conversation, you're right, is about a mask mandate. the governor of north dakota says he does believe that a mask mandate would be infringing on people's rights and would not be something that would be within individual freedoms. he says people should be recommended to wear a mask but not required. individual, local, health pun officials say that's not a good idea. people should have a mask mandate, they should be required to wear a mask wherever they go because that may stop the spread of this virus. two different sides of the story and local officials tell me they believe it's going to get a lot worse than better without a mask

mandate. >> gary grumbach, thank you. turnout could affect the election where joe biden is about to speak in north carolina. we'll take you there for his remarks. stay with us. for his remarks. stay with us ♪ you can go your own way

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