president trump and you have problems with seniors and you have problems with suburban women, perhaps saying you have given up trying to fight the pandemic isn't the best way to close out your message and win a campaign in the final eight days. but i guess we're all going to find out. thanks for getting up "way too early" on this monday morning. stick around because "morning joe" starts right now. here's what we have to do. we're not going to control the pandemic. we are going to control the fact that we get vaccines. therapeutics and other mitigation -- >> why aren't we going to get control of the pandemic? >> because it's contagious virus just like the flu. >> so we're not going to control the pandemic? >> that's amazing. i mean, that goes down of course -- pick -- i guess you could have mcarthur on the uss missouri at the end of world war

ii and accepting the surrender of japanese. i don't know. but -- >> 226,000 people are dead. >> with 226,000 people dead, this is where it ends. this is where it the -- the white house's response to the pandemic ends with them finally after six, seven, eight months of lying to the american people and making matters much worse finally just giving up and saying, we can't control the pandemic when of course you can control the pandemic. there are things that you can do that can hold the pandemic in check. but you can't do that when you spend six, seven, eight months lying to the american people saying it's one person coming in from china and soon they're going to be gone and then a month later in february saying it's 15 people coming in. and soon they're going to be

gone and it's going to be down to zero. thanking president xi as president trump did on january 24th, thank you for your transparency. >> doing nothing on testing. >> then in the spring saying it will go away in april. remember the president telling you repeatedly, seniors, this was going to magically going to go away in april and he's going to open up the country by easter that didn't happen, but then by memorial day because it was going to magically go away and it didn't magically go away. in fact, we had spikes in texas, spikes in arizona, spikes in florida and yes it was the senior citizens who were disproportionately affected. and anthony fauci to protect the seniors saying this would come back in the fall and what did the president say on that stage with anthony fauci? it's not going to come back in the fall and anthony fauci said

it's coming back in the fall. and you know, mika, i guess younger people who want to be lied to, who love to be lied to, who will look at conspiracy theories that claim that all of this is just like the flu, they can say what they want to say. but they know they're liars. they know they're lying to themselves and to other people because donald trump himself is on tape admitting that this is five times as bad as the flu. that this is contagious. that this is dangerous and that seniors will die. and that younger people will die. that's what the president said and it is very interesting, mika, that the president of the united states continues to hold super spreader events. >> all across the country. >> what does his chief of staff say when he's waving the white flag, when he's quitting,

admitting that the white house is giving up? as yet another breakout is taking place inside of the white house. he said, this is a virus, it's contagious, it's tough. this is where it ends, with them just giving up. okay. well, they're doing it just in time because americans go and vote, continue to vote and next tuesday the voting stops. >> yeah. >> and this will obviously for senior citizens will play a role in how they vote. >> if you're just a senior, just read in any newspaper, i just grabbed this from "usa today," the president has participated in three dozen rallies all but two at airport hangars and the covid cases grew at a faster

rate in the following counties including a wisconsin county. this is crazy. he is holding super spreader events. it's spreading more rapidly because of him. he's got a trail of germs that he's spreading across the country in the final days of his campaign. it's incredible to me the people that choose to believe him at this point. >> well, listen, they know he's lying. they're voting -- >> but why would you expose yourself to the coronavirus? >> well, they think they're young. >> i think they believe him. they think it's a hoax. who would do that to themselves? 1,500 new cases in those counties in the two weeks after trump held rallies there. >> well with us, we have katty kay and jonathan lemire and host of msnbc's "politicsnation,"

reverend al sharpton. mika, the white house is dealing with yet another outbreak of coronavirus. >> this is a white house that can't keep it from themselves. five of mike pence's aides have tested positive for the virus including his chief of staff mark short. the vice president's office said in a statement on saturday night that short began quarantine and that he was cooperating with contact tracing. a source says that pence's senior policy adviser has also tested positive. the vice president has tested negative and will continue to travel for the campaign. really? he held a rally in north carolina yesterday. his office said in a statement, while vice president pence is considered a close contact with mr. short, who is positive, in consultation with the white house medical unit the vice president will maintain his

schedule in accordance with the cdc guidelines. is that scott atlas? who told him to go on the roads. >> it's not the cdc guidelines. >> he continues to go on the road. >> he continues to break cdc guidelines. let's really quickly -- jonathan lemire, the vice president, the breakout continues inside the white house. the vice president continues to break all guidelines. we saw even on the debate his wife comes up on stage, only person not wearing a mask as well. what's going on? do the rules just not apply to mike pence? >> well, let's remember, joe, that mike pence who is indeed flouting the cdc guidelines he's the head of the coronavirus task force he's the head of the task force but it seems as if the rules have shifted and do not apply to him he and his aides say. we know this outbreak began late last week and over the weekend. we have up to five of the top aides including to "the

washington post," his body man have tested positive for coronavirus. his chief of staff, mark short, who traveled with the president several days last week. short known around the white house for never wearing a mask and really downplaying -- he's one of the loudest voices for downplaying the covid-19 outbreak. and the vice president, at least so far has given no indication that his schedule will change. he had a rally in north carolina yesterday. he's slated to go to minnesota today. it should be noted there's an effort from chief of staff mark meadows to suppress this information, not to release publicly that there was an outbreak in the vice president's office. that he did not want that to be -- he's told people he was taking cues from the president. he didn't that want to be a central argument in the race's eight or nine days but it is. his statement on the sunday shows which of course is

required, achieved so much attention where he said that the white house is not trying to control the pandemic. and the white house later said that no, he meant -- the white house's efforts right now are focused on therapeutics and vaccines so on. but he inadvertently raised the curtain where they have. tried to control this virus by requiring masks or at least advocating the use as a role model and the president himself he indeed continues to hold these massive events. i was with him yesterday in manchester, new hampshire. there were several thousand people there. no social distancing, some masks, but not even 50%. and he's got three more scheduled today in pennsylvania. and at a pace that only picks up as the week goes on and election day nears. the president and his team their rhetoric on the coronavirus has

not changed. they're simply saying despite the outbreak in the vice president's office, they're saying incorrectly that the nation has rounded the corner. that seems to be the -- >> that is. that is fantastic. we'll have more on the president's schedule, but here's more of what mark meadows, chief of staff, said in that interview yesterday with cnn's jake tapper. >> i spoke to the vice president last night at midnight and i can tell you that what he's doing is wearing a mask, socially distancing and when he goes to speak he will take the mask off and put it back on. but he is wearing a mask because the doctors have advised him to do. jake, when we start to look at this here's where we really need to make sure on your website yesterday, jake, you know, your website is talking about well now we think the spread is coming from small social groups and family groups. first, it was large groups, now it's small groups and now

it's -- >> it's coming from all sorts of places because the pandemic is out of control. >> so here's what we have to do. we're not going to control the pandemic, we are going to control the fact that we get vaccines. therapeutics. other mitigation -- >> why aren't we going to get control of the pandemic? >> because it's a contagious virus, just like the flu. >> but why not make efforts to contain it? >> we are making efforts to contain it. >> by running all over the country and not wearing a mask? that's what the vice president is doing. >> let me just say this. what we need to do is make sure that we have the proper mitigation factors whether it's therapies or vaccines or treatments to make sure that people don't die from this. but to suggest we're going to actually quarantine all of america, lock down our -- >> no one is saying. >> well they are. joe biden says that. he says lock everybody down. >> he didn't say that. >> we'll have a dark winter, we'll have -- >> that's what health officials say. >> mark meadows -- seriously,

how he does that and sleeps at night he is just lying to you. he's lying through his teeth. joe biden didn't say he's going to lock down the country. and by the way, the dark winter that's coming, that's what anthony fauci, that's what scott gottlieb, that's what every health care professional predicted last week? no. >> months ago. >> in the spring. i was talking to zeke emanuel before the outbreak even like went to -- in the middle of march and zeke said, joe, we'll have a bad outbreak in the spring, but guess what? look at the pandemic of 1918. it will be worse in the fall. we all knew that because guess what? we don't live in medieval times. we are able to look at science, we're able to look at math. we're able to look a -- well, i'm not able to look at math i'm

not good in math, but i'm able to take the advice of epidemiologists. i'll take the advice of doctors and they were telling us in march, we were going to have a dark winter. that we were -- that it was going to be worse and -- >> joe, he knows that. >> he knows it and he's lying. he's willing to let people die because that's what donald trump wants him to say. mark meadows who doesn't care if you live or die from the pandemic because he just cares about following the president's advice. he says we can't control the pandemic. really? you can. you -- but if you're part of a white house operation that sends people out and has super spreader events every day, and then, mika, what they did this past weekend. by the way, you look at all of the events that they're shoving people together. >> yeah. >> then they're mocking jeff mason for wearing a mask?

actually not only are you not working to contain the virus, you're actually working to actively spread the virus. >> i agree. >> mika -- >> you're working to make sure that people get it and i'm sorry, people will die. >> let's go through what happened this past weekend. >> sure. starting on friday, trump held a speakerphone call with the leaders of israel and sudan in the oval office where the majority of guests that surrounded him -- >> that's smart. >> in the obsequious way that the president needs a lot of people around him -- in that meeting once again mocked reuters white house reporter correspondent jeff mason for practicing the preventive measure of wearing a mask in this crowded maskless room. >> this is jeff mason. he's got a mask on, it's the largest mask i think i think

ever seen. i don't know if you can hear him. >> by the way, it's really remarkable that you are thinking about voting for that man. really it's staggering. you get information from facebook that says that anthony fauci's in some secret cabal that's going to make billions of dollars on a vaccine. that's just a lie. you can't be that stupid. you say it's no worse than the flu, it's -- no. donald trump himself in february, it's on tape, so please get off your stupid qanon sites and your stupid facebook sites, turn your head away from what ever tv station is telling you like it's the flu, because even donald trump said that was a lie to bob woodward. back in february. >> look at the number on the screen. >> katty kay -- here you have,

katty kay, a president who mocked and ridiculed jeff mason for wearing a mask, ordered that he took off a mask later. once again, this is -- what, this is some sort of macho thing getting a ball-peen hammer and hitting yourself in the front of the forehead? he might as well do that, look how cool i am, hit yourself in the head with the hammer and he's suggesting that other americans do the same thing. that somehow there's machoism is defined by how reckless you are with a pandemic that has now killed twice as many americans than died in world war i. >> yeah. and the cdc's own guidelines are clear on this. if you are in a crowded space particularly indoors and we all know the oval office is small

and they were crowded you try to social distance, you wear a mask and this is coming from the government itself. at the same time, that there's a brand-new study out from nature medicine saying that if we had universal mask wearing in the united states we could save 130,000 lives potentially. all it would take is for people to wear a mask and why do wear a mask? because the people in influence wear it too and that's a role modeling behavior that can help the whole country. i think every immunitiologist that i speak to says that we have to trust or countries. the countries that have done well in handling the coronavirus have two things. people are prepared to abide by the rules and the guidelines and the people trust the people in authority. the confusing message that we're getting from the white house on the issue of masks and on a whole host of other security issues breaks down that trust and that's why people don't wear

the masks. straight after the president came out of the hospital, more people at the rallies were wearing masks and now back to normal and almost nobody is. but jeff mason is quite right. put the mask on. >> yeah. let's continue to map this out. trump then went on to hold a series of outdoor rallies where his screaming supporters packed themselves tightly together. most not wearing masks and amid the spiking case numbers across the country, the president mocked news outlets for their coverage of the virus and repeated the false claim that the increase in cases is due to the increase in testing and appeared to call into question the u.s. death toll from the u.s. virus. >> that's all i hear about now. that's all i -- turn on the television. covid, covid. covid, covid, covid. a plane goes down, 500 people dead, they don't talk about i. by the way, on november 4th, you won't hear about it anymore.

covid. covid, please don't go and vote. covid. please do not under any circumstances -- you cannot go out and vote except the problems are that in florida the people that are going out to vote nobody's ever seen anything like it because they're tired of all of this stuff. they're tired of such negativity -- by the way, i had it and here i am. >> mr. president, there's some cases of coronavirus cases rising in wisconsin. >> you used the word cases. you know why there's so many cases? because we test, we test more than any country in the world. nobody tests like us. cases. everybody uses the word cases. mortality, way down. way down. a lot of the cases that you're talking about are young people. very young people. they get better 99.9%, they get better almost immediately. no, use the word case because

you're trying to scare people. don't scare people. don't scare people. we understand this disease. we're going to take care of our seniors appeal really susceptible especially seniors with diabetes, seniors with problems where the heart. you know, some countries they report differently. if somebody is sick with a heart problem and they die of covid they say they're dead of a heart problem. if someone is dead with cancer, think of the incentive, some countries do it differently. if somebody is very sick with a bad heart, they die of covid, they don't get reported as covid so then you wonder why their cases are so low. the country and their reporting systems are not doing it right. if somebody has a really bad heart and they're close to death, even if they're not, but they have a very bad heart and they get covid, they put it down to covid.

other countries put it down to a heart. so we have to be -- we have to start looking at things because you know they have things -- they have things a little bit backwards. they have things a little bit backwards. >> now you're the one that has things -- not a little bit backwards. i mean, going around to lie to people and coming up can conspiracy theories. >> not worrying about their health? >> if somebody died of covid the whole idea you know this because you talked to bob woodward about it in february, it people's with other conditions that are more susceptible of dying from covid. i have children that have underlying conditions that will be completely fine unless they get covid. and then one child who's a diabetic will not be fine. one child who has upper respiratory problems will

struggle. people with asthma, struggle. people with diabetes, struggle. people with underlying conditions struggle. i mean, what you're saying to the crowds just so stupid and puts people at risk and is part, rev, of a conspiracy theory. this guy -- you preach the gospel. this guy preaches conspiracy theories. he's still -- he's still lying to the american people going in to the final week of the campaign about covid and he's still grasping wildly for conspiracy theories. it just leads me to ask how so many people have been fooled. how so many of my friends and family members been fooled or just don't care that he's putting senior citizens' lives at risk. by the way, they know better

because while they spew these conspiracy theories guess what they're doing at the same time? they're protecting members of their own family who have underlying conditions. isn't that interesting? that they'll spew hatred and lies about covid for people outside their -- but when it's time to take care of their own, it's the boy in the plastic bubble or the girl in the plastic bubble and they take care of their own because they know it's true. they know the guy they're supporting is a liar and now he's putting americans' lives at risk and yet they vote for him anyway. >> when white house chief of staff meadows said they couldn't contain the coronavirus, he should have added they really can't contain the president. to have the president running

around having these super spreaders and saying these conspiracy theories is only adding to the problem and the increase. and as you rightfully say, spreading the virus. and for those that are in denial about this, while at the same time in denial of doing everything to protect their loved ones, is the height of hypocrisy. the way you begin is the way you end. i honestly feel with the turnouts we are seeing around the country, this will be the end of the trump presidency and he's going out and playing to fraudulent theories, hyping things like he hyped birtherism and all which was a fraud, hyping this thing of the conspiracy that we're just recording deaths wrong. that is as fraudulent as birtherism was. he's going out the way he came in, on frauds. >> well, let's bring in dr. vin gupta. he's a pulmonologist and an

msnbc news medical contributor. dr. gupta, i feel like it's being redundant, but apparently a lot of people in the white house have a hard time understanding the science that their own scientists are giving them. but is it possible that they don't believe these facts that this virus can spread and if you have an event you are continuing the spread and perhaps even heightening it? >> good morning, mika. you know, no, i don't think it's possible. i think it's willful misdirection. i'm going to take the opportunity to clear the air on a few things. we talk about cases. i talked to christy nome and the docs being giving to the doctors and nurses and disaster declarations are being issued

and her supporters are following what she is saying and in hospitals that are strained because 30% of people per report are wearing masks because she's not encouraging it. she's weakening it and now the icus are full and they're experiencing a full. that's why they're asking for disaster credentials. so wisconsin and ohio, their icus are under strain as well. this is about the actual lived experience of people in these states, icus being filled. people across the country being asked to volunteer so that's number one. number two, this notion of under counting or that we're overcounting for the president's words covid related deaths is patently false. the president refers to excess mortality in the debates, we have one of the lowest of excess

mortalities in the world. and scott atlas likes to talk about it. that's how many people are dying in a crisis now and relative to the noncrisis year. we have led the world throughout the summer in excess mortality. meaning people are dying directly because of covid and indirectly because of covid because we're living in crisis times. but there is no serious person who does not think that the total number of people directly dying from covid-19 is vastly undercounted. it's actually 300,000. >> doctor, let's break it down. just break it down. as northwest florida politician childress used to say, put it down where the goat can eat the

grass. so how many people died this year and in regular years? you talk about the excess deaths. those are deaths that wouldn't occur in a normal year. what's that number? >> joe, so that number we think it's 60 to 70% higher right now than it would otherwise be. so at least 150,000 to 160,000. that number is uncertain, but at least the majority of the deaths we're thinking about 60 to 70% of the deaths right now that we have attributed to covid-19 would otherwise not have occurred if the pandemic was not happening as we speak. but here's the problem with that, joe. we don't know the true death toll from this virus. again, it could be as high as 300,000. we think we're vastly undercounting the actual true number. that's number one. number two, joe, it's not some mystery, i'm in the icu, it's

not a mystery if someone dies from covid-19. they test positive and we have to put them on the ventilator and they die from the covid pneumonia. and people with pre-existing conditions are at outsized risk and covid-19 tips them over the edge and causes them to go on the ventilator. his misconceptions, how he's messaging just like like mark meadows is costing people's lives because people listen to them and not taking the precautions. if i can finally -- no, please. >> i'll get to katty in a second, but you can make your final point and also answer this. how would you characterize another doctor -- this is a hypothesis, another doctor you said saying to the patient, you saw saying to the patient, you know, you don't have to wear a mask. wear a mask if you want to. i'm for masks, but, you know, you don't have to.

and then that person goes out and becomes exposed and dies. how would you characterize what that doctor did? >> dereliction of duty. that's not what doctors are supposed to do. they're supposed to tell their patients what they need to do to protect themselves. let's call balls and strikes, that is wrong. what the vice president is doing is wrong. he should be quarantining for at least ten days. there's no way to talk you out of that. and the last point i want to make, mark meadows is talking as a therapeutic as a mitigation. mitigation is masking, universal masking, work per a recent w.h.o. trial. it makes no sense at all. but that's not a pandemic strategy. >> katty kay? >> doctor, it sounds to me that

what mark meadows is talking about effectively is herd immunity. they don't want to use that phrase but when he says we can't contain this that's what he's talking about. can you once and for all what you think the problems are in a herd immunity strategy and why the notion of not trying to contain it by taking measures that includes some level of shutting down society if necessary, why we may never get to herd immunity. >> absolutely, katty kay. i think you're right. christy nome and others, governor desantis, they're disciples of herd immunity. they're basically doing herd immunity right now. even if they don't want to use the terminology. here's the problem with it. you cannot cocoon covid-19, let it run amok amongst a younger cr aged students in iowa and expect the

elderly or the vulnerable to be protected. the cdc -- our own cdc had published multiple studies suggesting that a spike in young people is followed a few weeks later by a spike in older individuals. meaning they'll end up in the icu that's the whole reason why the state has set up the field hospitals. you can't cocoon covid-19. you can't let it run amok. so that's the fundamental 30,000 foot overview here as to why that does not work. >> dr. vin gupta, thank you. thank you for telling our viewers actually the truth based on medicine and science and reason. we greatly appreciate it. of course it is extraordinary that doctors like dr. gupta are getting death threats and

getting -- just getting attacked. >> and disaster declarations for their doctors to get ready. >> day in and day out. getting attacked for simply telling the truth about wearing masks, about social distancing, about doing the basic things that can keep you and your families safe. hey, ref, we'll get to polls in a little bit. i'm just curious, we're now eight days out from the end of the voting. what are you seeing on the ground? what are you hearing on the ground about the state of the race? >> i'm seeing a huge turnout, people were thinking that maybe the first day or two, but it was just a release of a lot of emotions and people waiting to vote. but it has stayed every day in some states increasing by the day and i think that this is a real indication that people are concerned about the way the government is going.

i think that from the way that we're getting data, a lot of it is driven by a disappointment in this administration. and i think that people are doing it despite their concerns about covid-19. i think they're doing it because of their concerns. when you have a debate last thursday where the president still doesn't have a program for this, what is the trump program? i suppose meadows said it best. they have decided they're not doing to try and confine this virus and i think people are saying we need people that are at least trying to execute a program to save our lives and i think that we're going to see these lines continue all the way through november 3rd. >> and jonathan lemire, we're going to be getting to polls next block, we'll be talking about early voting. i'm just curious though what is the white house today about the number in the six states overwhelmingly breaking the

democrats' way. a lot of first-time voters also breaking the democrats' way and in the state of florida republicans are chipping away at the democratic lead. but the democrats still holding about a 400,000 vote advantage. >> it is very much on the white house's minds, joe. and they're definitely concerned. they're following the same numbers we are too and they try to point as a rebuttal to the idea that there's been a wave this year of new gop voters registrations. more republicans who are registered to vote for the first time this year than democrats. a lot of these key battleground states. pennsylvania in particular. but their aides like to say, they point to the president's rallies. it's a sign of enthusiasm. joe biden could never do this. first of all, joe biden is not trying to do this. because he's monitoring and adhering to the cdc guidelines and it's possible that yes, joe

biden like hillary clinton before him would not draw the crowds like donald trump does. he's unique in his ability to do that and there are other signs of enthusiasm. the counterargument is look at the lines of early voting. are they all democrats, of course not. some republicans are voting early but that would be the major display of democrats' enthusiasm. not large rallies but rather turning out to vote and lining up sometimes for hours to vote early. one more point, yes i was as i mentioned earlier i was on the president's trip to new hampshire and maine. in the press pool, when we boarded the plane, we found on our seat at printout of a tweet from a polling firm that suggested that voters who have not yet voted in three states, florida, north carolina and georgia, were leaning to overwhelmingly favoring trump the rest of the way. they believe that democrats will vote early and this republicans will turn out in huge numbers on election day.

that's what they're trying to underscore. they can still win this on november 3rd. but one, as the virus surges throughout the country it will become trickier and more dangerous for people to vote in person on november 3rd. which may keep republican turnout down on that day. and secondly, even if indeed more voters cast their ballots for president trump on november 3rd than vote for joe biden on november 3rd it's far from a given it will be able to off set the huge early voting totals were seeing from democrats. republicans are very nervous about this. >> we'll be talking about florida with mark caputo who knows the state very well. but going into election day, after all the votes are counted, people that voted leading up to election day, joe biden is going to be ahead most likely by a few hundred thousand votes. maybe 200,000. 300,000 votes. and we will be looking all night

to see if the same day voting by republicans which they expect to do very well is going to be able to off set the biden advantage. one thing to remember though. both sides also believe that that's going to only account for about 30%, 35% of the overall vote. so one concern that i keep hearing among republican strategists and some of the smartest minds in the republican party when it comes to politics is this. the democrats can't be given too big of an advantage going in to election day because they'll put all of their eggs in that one basket which they are right now, a huge election day turnout, just may not be enough with the republicans seeing democrats banking hundreds of thousands of votes in the six swing states that matter the most. >> so as we mentioned earlier we'll get to the latest battleground polling just ahead

and plus today the full senate is scheduled to vote on amy coney barrett's confirmation and the trump administration is planning a celebration at the white house. maybe another super spreader, okay. we know how well the first one went. >> it's just not smart. >> kasie hunt will join us with her latest reporting from capitol hill. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. a live bookkeeper is helping

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that's not normal behavior, florida. you wouldn't tolerate it from a co-worker. you wouldn't tolerate it from a high school principal. you wouldn't tolerate it from a coach. you wouldn't tolerate it from a family member. florida man wouldn't even do this stuff. why are we accepting it from the

president of the united states? it's not -- it's not normal behavior. >> so funny. >> florida man wouldn't even do this. rev, rev, barack obama's having a good time out there. by the way, people who don't know about the florida man thing. what my kids love to do is ask anybody that walks tone the house when's your birthday? and you do it, and you do your birthday and then you type in florida man and whatever your birthday is, there are -- >> florida man wrestles an alligator in the supermarket. things like that. >> can but barack obama going after florida man. he's having a good time and he had a good time up in philadelphia and in miami. it's more than just laughs. there's a guy, barack obama, who

actually could make a big difference in the closing week of this campaign. >> no doubt about it. i think that with former president obama out there he excites the base already there and his arguments are so persuasive and he contrasts it with the present occupant of the white house that a lot of independents are also energized that were headed to biden way and are locked in. i don't think he could have had a better surrogate came out for, that is joe biden than is barack obama. the added thing, no one gets under the skin of this president like barack obama. barack obama drives this president nuts and i think if you're in a fight, you want your opponent to be off his fight game and be driven by some weird kind of distractive emotions and that's what barack obama does for donald trump.

and it only goes to the benefit of joe biden and kamala harris. >> and he's just having a great time doing it. he's inspiring people to get out to go vote. he also is showing such a clear contrast between how traditional presidents behave and how this president has behaved and of course, mika, as maura gay said after the philadelphia speech, how perfect that you have the first black man to be president of the united states attacking donald trump for being lazy. >> delicious. >> because guess what? because he's extraordinarily lazy. he sits around all day, eats and watches cable news. >> he golfed his way through the pandemic. so listen here -- >> not good. >> here's the latest state polling. in texas the latest dallas morning news ut tyler poll shows biden up by three over president

trump. 48% to 45%. within the margin of error which we note can go the other way too. meaning the race can be also wider by that margin of error number. >> it could be tied, biden could be up by six. could go either way. >> in georgia, the two are tied at 49% apiece. in north carolina, the cbs news/yougov poll shows biden ahead by four. 51% to 47% within the margin of error. and in florida, the same poll shows biden ahead by two, 50% to 48%. >> so jonathan lemire, let's do what unfortunately you and i do every day off the air. >> yeah. >> and talk about the polls. and talk about which way the data seems to be breaking. i want to start with texas because, again, you know, if you do this long enough you stay cynical when you see things like a democrat going ahead in texas,

but i have to remind myself that i called pennsylvania fools gold for republicans for about 20 years until donald trump won it in 2016. we have been seeing consistently this state tied in independent polls over the past three, four months. we had a couple of polls out this weekend showing biden up by a point or two. i'm still skeptical, still skeptical that a democrat can win the lone star state but my god, the fact that it's this close and it keeps getting closer. you know, you look at 2012, then hillary did better in 2016. 2018 of course democrats did even better, and now biden is tied or ahead by a couple of points in a lot of these polls. >> joe, the fact that -- i mean, you'll be interested to know,

you and i have the same exact conversation on the air and a few hours later we have it off the air. i think it's an indictment on our social lives. the democrats are trying to figure out what to do with texas and i think it's telling the most valuable resource that a campaign has is a candidates' time and the fact that kamala harris is headed to texas later this week shows you that the biden camp believes it's in play. remember in 2016, there was a lot of second guessing that emerged late and then after hillary clinton lost. that she spent time in that last week or so, she and michelle obama went to arizona. that was such a stretch for the democrats and then the second-guessing was that they spent time in arizona at the expense of being in a place like wisconsin, which they had to have. seemed like they're interested in running up the score. that was the monday morning

quarterback and they should have focused on the states that would deliver her to 270 and biden is getting a lot of pressure to play in texas. now the democrats have long thought that whether it's in 2024, 2028 that texas would move into the battleground and they think that some in the party believe that the trump effect had accelerated that timetable and that texas could be something that joe biden could pick off now. of course, it goes without saying if we were to win texas, the second biggest state in the country, this race is over. and it becomes an absolute blowout and it complicates the ability to get to 270 again if democrats can start winning texas consistently. other states georgia, joe biden is headed there this week and his campaign feels that georgia is a state they can pluck off and make and potentially win and that would extraordinarily complicate the president's path to re-election if he can't hang

on to georgia because he needs that southeast corner. that florida/georgia/north carolina. as a building block, and then he still has to fill in the rest of the map. final note, the trump campaign at least at this point has not advised a stop in texas. there's not plans to go there yet. but there's an effort to make one last stop in georgia before the election is out. they felt a couple of weeks ago that texas was in jeopardy and they have been feeling better lately and this new batch of polls had to change their thinking again. >> we have a new poll out -- well, from the newspaper that my family always had delivered when i was born and grew up from my first six years in atlanta, georgia. i have the armstrong walks on the moon headline from the "atlanta journal constitution." they have a new poll that shows joe biden back up by one percentage points.

we republicans if we were going into the race one week out where we were within the margin of error and behind in texas, within the margin of error in -- but losing in georgia, within the margin of error but losing in north carolina, that as -- the same in florida, that would be -- we'd be ducking our heads and waiting for the blast -- the political blast to come. because that is not good news for donald trump. >> so let's hone in on florida. joining us now we have politico's mark caputo, author of "the florida playbook." and carlos korbel low as well. >> mark, first of all, great, great column. great reporting this past weekend on the early vote counts. florida is fascinating because we can see it sort of unrolling every day, right? you get to see those numbers.

democrats started out with a huge advantage. republicans were saying, hey, we'll catch up with them with in-person, early voting and then the last 35% on the last day of we'll swamp them. i'm curious, you know florida as well or better than anybody. what it is looking like to you right now? >> it's looking like something i haven't seen before. we haven't seen any party whether republican or democrat leap out to the lead that the democrats had and the democrats still hold. as of yesterday morning it was 363,000 raw ballots cast more democrats than republicans but republicans are catching up. but the question is like can they catch up enough, do they have enough of the voters to make a difference? is the republican bet wrong or right that the election day will just be a blowout for them? there are signs that democrats are still turning out more -- actually, they're showing out more low propensity voters than republicans and more of the new

registrants than republicans. i think you talked about the election day wins in florida and the cushion that a democrat can have -- i'll give you this. on election day morning, hillary clinton led in 247,000 votes total. there was 90,000 more democratic ballots cast than republicans because of independent voters and party switchers. she led by 267,000 votes and she ended up by losing by less than 130,000 votes. the big question here is can they do a repeat? right now republicans are a bit nervous though because the reality is 360,000 vote margin is a 360,000 vote margin, it's still historic, still big and a cause of worry for them. >> mark that's what i'm hearing from republicans, listen, we'll have a strong election day turnout, would we rather have them banked or be hoping for this big turnout on election

day. let me ask you about -- or low propensity voters because this is something i keep hearing from supervisors of elections. you know, when i sat down and talked to jared kushner about a year and a half ago and he gave me the theory of the case for the trump campaign, their goal was actually not expanding his base but going out and getting new voters. getting people who never voted before or people who are low propensity voters. what i'm hearing from supervisors of elections across the state of florida and other republican officials is, they're concerned that actually democrats are pulling out a lot of those low propensity voters, pulling out voters that haven't been out since 2008. pulling out voters who have never voted before. are you hearing the same? >> well, as a percentage and as a share of vote kind of comparing today 2020 to 2016, both parties are about on pace in turning out the new shares of

voters. the difference is is that democrats have more of them. there are still more registered democrats here and overall, that helps the democrats a little bit more. i just want to make sure your viewers don't at all think i'm forecasting who might win this thing. i have been through way too many recounts going back to 2000 in florida and understand they're going to change, but the donald trump campaign does believe whether they are in denial or not, i'll let others decide, but they believe they're in better shape than they were in 2016 at this stage of the election because of the number of those high propensity, reliable voters they have in the wings and the democrats are the opposite. >> of course we don't -- what the early numbers mean, we don't know for quite some time. well, until 9:00, 10:00 election night because there are so many variables. so carlos, let me ask you about

miami-dade. that's -- that's the county i probably heard more people talk about on both sides over the past month. the biden team obviously he's had concerns about miami-dade going back about a month ago. they weren't -- they were underperforming compared to how hillary was doing. the trump campaign was pretty excited about it. post debate, that seemed to change a bit. biden i'm hearing biden's team feels like they're picking up a little bit more republicans are concerned they're bleeding some support in miami-dade. what can you tell us about miami-dade that's dispositive of the entire election? >> something else is that the democratic ticket is gaining in white suburban areas and we see

the president gaining ground relative to 2016 in hispanic areas like south florida. now, that has changed since the first debate. look at polling data, the president was running about even in some of the majority hispanic congressional districts in south florida. i have seen more recent data especially after that first debate that shows that he lost a lot of support and is now down by as much as double digits in some of these districts. now, that's better than 2016 where he by 15 and 20 points but i don't think it's enough to off set the white suburban areas where biden has really outperformed hillary clinton -- what hillary clinton did in 2016. >> katty kay? >> congressman, i know we usually ask you about perhaps puerto rico voters but i was

speaking to venezuelans last week and they think they could make a difference and again, many of them like many cuban-american voters particularly older cuban-american voters tend to lean republican. could you see venezuelans an underreported group in the national media in florida making a difference this time around? >> without question the president is doing very well with venezuelans. the administration has done a good job of staying out in front of that issue, doing a lot of media events around the policy changes and initiatives that they have launched with regards to venezuela. however, the venezuelan community is small. the reason why it has an outsized influence they get a lot of attention and they're a massive voting bloc in florida but if you take venezuelas alone, it's a smaller bloc.

and certainly, the venezuelan community gets a lot more attention than the actual number of votes that they control. >> lemire? >> hey, mark, i don't mean to trigger flash backs for you, but you did mention 2000 and the recount and it is florida and every race seems to be close in florida. certainly there's an expectation that there would be some potential legal challenges in some states this year. so let's talk about florida. can you walk us through each what they're doing to do to prepare for possible recounts and what governor desantis, a close trump ally, could play. >> well, desantis signed a bill that made it harder for former felons to get their voting rights back and they cleared a few extra folks off the roll

after a voter approved constitutional amendment thought they could get their votes back, but because of outstanding fees they have been unable to get out of the limbo land. every year since 2000 when had teams of lawyers here to go at the drop of a hat and that will go again. best indications are this is a typical election in that regard and that is if there are going to be polling malfunctions or polling machine malfunctions at the precincts, mark elias and the team of lawyers will be suing to stay open later. i have gotten no whiff that anything unusual is going to happen and there's a mail-in problem. in 2018 we had the senate race and the governor's race the race for agricultural commission decided by less than half a point and go to recount. remember the maga bomber, he

lived in miami and he was setting the crudely made pipe bombs to different media companies and some of the pipe bombs got discovered in one of the mail sorting facilities in opa-locka which had a lot of absentee ballots that didn't get delivered. small things or off the wall things can have a big and unexpected consequence. so in florida you have to have your mail-in ballot into the supervisor of elections office by 7:00 p.m. on election day. the democrats have sued over, they have lost but that could come up as an issue as well. >> all right, former congressman carlos curbelo and mark caputo, thank you very much. we are a few minutes past the top of the hour now. let's start with the president's

weekend of campaign rallies or super spreader events. again saying that we are rounding the corner on the pandemic as he spreads it. as covid cases are at an all-time high and hospitals struggle. here he is in north carolina on saturday. >> i get calls all the time from leaders. your testing is the best in the world. i say, do you test, no. you don't test, no. that's why they have no cases or very few cases. they have somebody sick, they call it a case. i said to one gentleman who is very tough. very tough man. he runs a tough country. i say, do you test? yes. when somebody comes into the hospital and throws up all over the floor, we test. but we never test other than. do you have cases? no, we show very few cases.

so we show more cases because we test. >> the lie continues. >> in reality, the u.s. right now is facing one of the most severe surges of coronavirus to date and saturday, nearly 84,000 new cases were reported marking a second day in a row that the country topped 80,000 daily infections. the spike broke the single day record set on july 16th by about 10,000 cases. dozens of states have seen a seven-day average of more than 100 new cases per 100,000 people. hospitals are overwhelmed with some in crisis especially in rural areas. tell that to white house chief of staff mark meadows. >> i spoke to the vice president last night at midnight and i can tell you that what he's doing is wearing a mask, socially distancing and when he goes up to speak he will take the mask off, put it back on.

but he's wearing a mask as it relates to this particular thing. because the doctors have advised him to do that and so, jake, when we start to look at this, you know, here's where we really need to make sure on your website yesterday, jake, you know, your website is talk about well now we think the spread is coming from small social groups and family groups. first it was large groups now it's small groups. now it's -- >> it's coming from all sorts of places because the pandemic is out of control. >> here's what we have to do. we're not going to control the pandemic, we are going to control the fact that we get vaccines. therapeutics and other mitigation -- >> why aren't we going to get control of the pandemic? >> it's a contagious thing like the flu. >> by running all over the country not wearing a mask? that's what the vice president is doing. >> i won't get into the back and forth but let me say this. what we need to do is make sure that we have the proper mitigation factors whether it's

therapies or vaccines or treatments to make sure that people don't die from this. but to suggest that we're going to actually quarantine all of america, lock does -- >> no one is saying. >> well, joe biden is saying that. lock everybody down. >> he's not saying that. >> we'll have a dark winter. >> that's what health officials say. >> i just have to repeat it again like last hour, mark meadows is lying. joe biden never said he was going to shut down the country but when meadows lies through his teeth like that, when he disgraces himself and the white house -- >> he's perfect for trump. >> what he's doing is is he's telling you that he thinks you're too stupid to know the truth. he's telling you that you're too stupid to actually listen to what people say on television. joe biden never said that.

that's a complete lie. and also a complete lie they're doing everything they can do to stop the spread. they're not. you have their allies like ron desantis who is opening the state of florida up completely and not taking the precautions that need to be taken. that have been pushing back. held a triumphant meeting with vice president pence declaring victory and guess what? people keep dying in the state of florida. senior citizens keep dying in the state of florida. this has nothing to do with ideology, okay? this has nothing to do with political parties. this is just basic doctor's advice. when you go to your doctor, you listen to him or her, right? they tell you what you need to do to keep yourself safe or your family safe you listen to him,

right? well, why the hell would that change because there's an election on november the 3rd? and by the way, guess what? i have had poor people, poor, poor americans who have had their minds twisted by propaganda come up to me and saying this going to go away the day after the election. no. it's not. we're not talking about elections. i know that donald trump only looks at this world through the lens of what matters to him, what impacts him, what impacts his bank account. he doesn't care about you. but we do. and we're here to tell you things are going to be tough going in to the fall and winter. not because joe biden said it, but because that's what doctors were warning us about in march.

it's crazy. >> what's insane about this, joe, is that to mitigate the virus, to protect yourself from death, from getting the coronavirus and spreading it to someone who could die, is the -- it's inconvenient, there's no question it's inconvenient and we wish we didn't have to do it and it's hard for kids but it's masks. it's masks and washing hands. it's not like -- >> and a social distancing. >> not like cdc scientists are asking you to suit up in ppe and to not ever go outside. they're asking you to social distance, wear masks and wash your hands a lot and that could be the difference between tens of thousands of deaths and this president doesn't push that universally. >> by the way -- >> it's like does he want to kill people? does he want them to get the virus? >> there's a way to do a lot of things safely. there's a way to fly safely.

>> yeah. >> and you can fly safely. you can move around the country safely. you can work safely. but you've got to wear a mask. you've got to be cautious. >> you always need to wash your hands. >> you need to do the basic things that dr. fauci has been telling you to do. >> joining us the conversation is co-host of showtime's "the circus," executive editor of the recount, john heilemann. editor at large for the nonprofit newsroom the 19th and an msnbc contributor, errin haines. and editor of "the new yorker" magazine, david remdesivhmnick here. and katty kay and jonathan lemire still with us as well. >> so let's go through, john heilemann, i want to go through the polls with you before but before that i want to talk about a stat that drew my attention. dave wasserman reporting that --

looking at the numbers that in the state of texas, they are already at 80% -- 80% of the number that voted in total in texas in 2016 and they still have another week of voting to go. that's unbelievable. >> it's bananas. it's bananas, joe. good morning, mika and joe, hey, happy monday. you know, all the statistics we have seen and there have been some staggering statistics in terms of the early vote. the total now is right around 55, 56 million votes that are already in the bank which is itself also bananas. i haven't seen a more banana tax from texas and i know you're talking about in the first hour about what's going on down there. it look like the 2018 efforts of beto o'rourke and democrats down

there to mobilize, come very close to doing something historic and the electorate was going to be much more pro republican it seemed to have paid off. it's a nonstop organizing effort on the part of the texas democrats since 2018 and now we're looking at the numbers across the state. you know, i think we have seen it, joe, for the last week. the moment that john cornyn turned against donald trump and came out and distanced himself from trump, something he had not done in four years, it's like a canary in the coal mine. like an electrocuted eagle in the coal mine howling and that's john cornyn saying i could lose this race and a world where cornyn can lose in texas is a world where you're look the -- you could have a plausible conversation about the democratic landslide, 1980s style landslide in the senate and a giant win for joe biden. i think everyone understands that texas is fully in play.

kamala harris going there on friday, lemire made the right point earlier about the allocation of the candidates' time and more pointedly about the biden campaign. they have been so disciplined for the last six months saying we are not going to go and mess around in the states, we will put some ads on the air, but we'll send our candidates to the core six states we need to win and won't make the mistakes like hillary clinton made in 2016. it's a sign of just how much those two states are obviously just -- i mean they could go either way but they're in the closing days genuine battleground states and again, texas republicans all the way up to cornyn freaking out over the kind of early vote numbers we have seen and over the possibility that this could be the election that texas goes blue. >> and ted cruz also talked

about the possibility several weeks back of democrats winning the state of texas. >> yes. >> what's so fascinating about texas and georgia, unlike florida, florida is hardened ground. it has been a battleground for the past 20 years. but in texas and georgia, you've got two states that are far different that haven't been the focus of both parties for 20 years and there is a possibility of the democrats picks up a win. let's look at the numbers -- let's look at the numbers out of texas. we have "the dallas morning news" poll, if you can put that up. the university of texas at tyler has joe biden up by three points, 48% to 45%. let's go to north carolina, the cbs news/yougov poll shows biden ahead by four. in florida, the same poll shows biden ahead by two. 50% to 48% and then in georgia,

they are tied, 49% apiece. cbs/yougov poll and a atlanta constitutional poll has biden at 47% and trump, 46%. >> wow. >> this is -- this is, david, a wind change of sorts if you had asked me as a republican how my side was going to do going in the final week of the election with the republican candidate either tied or behind in florida, georgia, north carolina, texas, i would say duck because a hard rain's going to be falling on election day. >> maybe, maybe, maybe. i mean -- >> maybe. >> no one should predict this, no one should call this.

john is right to call it bananas to see the numbers and what's driving the early vote? well, first and foremost, the virus that people want to vote safely and they want to make sure that their vote gets registered. but at the same time, i think the haunting memory of 2016 is driving people to the polls and i don't mean just in -- you know, manhattan and in places like that that would logically have a big biden vote. but i think people saw the price of staying home last time. a lot of people saw that if just a little bit more in the milwaukee suburbs or what have you had gone to the polls, the result would have been different and we would not have been living through this nightmare for four years. and so i have to think that even though that the president of the united states talks about his enthusiasm as opposed to the enthusiasm that joe biden has behind him, i think the people are showing with their feet and waiting on line for three, four

hours to make sure that their vote registers. these votes, these totals are as john put it pabananas. >> errin haines, what are you seeing out of the polls of georgia and north carolina? >> well, yes, good morning, mika and good morning, joe. the final countdown is here. and georgia is absolutely in play. you've got joe biden going back down there and really not taking any of these close states for granted. i think we saw the tale of the tape may be what happened in 2018 in texas, in florida, and in georgia where democrats came within striking distance and the democrats who narrowly lost those races, beto o'rourke, stacey abrams, andrew guillen could be a factor in terms of the voter mobileation efforts that can play a factor in how the states go.

but democrats have remained energized since 2018. the early voting record turnout is off the charts in texas, georgia and florida and is tending to favor democrats. and so north carolina also knowing some of the voters suppression issues that happened there recently, voters there are laser focused on turning out and trying to leave little margin of error there or there to counteract the voter suppression, but the pandemic is bringing it in sharp relief. especially for women. the gender gap is the story of the election and you're seeing women this weekend halloween, they're going to have to make the best of that with children who maybe can wear costumes but they have to socially distance or sit at home with their pumpkin basket, you know, full of candy that they didn't get to go and collect because of the pandemic. thanksgiving is around the

corner. you mentioned the cases going back up. colleges are reopened. children are going back to school, the weather is turning and people are small gathering and that is causing the spread of this, thanksgiving is around the corner and people are having to make tough choices. all of that is on the minds of people who have been socially distancing, wearing a mask, and thinking that casting their ballot could be another way they fight this virus. >> katty kay? >> i was talk down in georgia last week and talking to a woman who is running for congress down there and she was making the point to me that the dnc is being super disciplined about how it approaches georgia. they're not putting money into races or time and effort into races in the state that they don't think they can win and they're really focussed on the state legislature because this is a census year and they want to try to see if they can do their own gerrymandering of district drawing in the state so they can have an impact in years

to come trying to keep georgia more blue at the congressional level. but heilemann, i was going to ask you about texas. you said something about texas and this could be the number -- bananas, this could be the year. i remember speaking to the texas politics project at the university of texas austin earlier this year and them raising questions about whether there had been in 2018 large numbers of suburban women who had flipped from republican to democrat in the congressional elections. they said they didn't see the numbers to support that. they did see some diversification of the suburbs and that might be why it was kind of moving in the direction but they really didn't feel that it was going to be this cycle. have things changed a lot since the beginning of this year that makes texas more in play than say six months ago? >> yeah. i think -- well, i think a couple of things are true, katty. one, the story in texas and the story in georgia in this respect are similar and joe talked about

contrasting this with florida where florida has been a melting pot. very complex set of media markets. complex geography. complexeth nothingry. the thing that the kind of sources that you were talking to about what happened in 2018 in texas is that -- what the beto o'rourke people managed to do it turns out we now see is to really kind of finally -- to manage to take the demographic change happening in texas primarily the rise of -- the percentage for hispanic eligible voters and start to convert some of that into actual votes and that has been a large part of their focus over the course of this last two years and of course we have seen, you know, in the summer when the last great coronavirus surge happened. you know, in the suburbs of houston, suburbs of dallas, the suburbs of san antonio and in austin those suburbs which have been changed dramatically in

terms of college educated white women and in terms of hispanic vote share that demographic change has been a huge opportunity for democrats and i think what we're seeing is the combination of the pandemic and the field work that the beto forces and the texas democratic party have capitalized on some of the progress in 2018 and is now paying dividends. look it's the case in all of the states that every bit of polling that we see suggests that the election day vote is going to be overwhelmingly republican or republicans are going to make up a lot of the ground they have lost in this early vote. there's no question about that. the question though is whether they can make it all up, because a lot of the vote by party registration overwhelmingly vote democrat and they have a steep hill to climb and last point, as the virus surges again, not just in blue states but in red states actually for the first time across the country, every state

right now, is it possible that the ultimate cruel irony for president trump and his people, mark meadows, practicing herd immunity that republican voters finally get scared and the republican surge -- the red wave that trump keeps talking about on election day doesn't come to fruition because either the republican voters are like this is too scary, i'm staying home. >> first, we want to play a moment from the "60 minutes" interview that aired yesterday. in it, kayleigh mcenany presented cbs' lesley stahl with a giant book claiming it was donald trump's health care plan. >> if the supreme court ends this obamacare -- >> well, we have to see what happens. i hope they end it. it will be so good.

>> and if they end it, people with pre-existing conditions will be stranded and that's just a fact. >> it's wrong. >> no. >> a new plan will happen. >> but will -- >> we don't do -- will and is. we won't do anything and no plan unless we have pre-existing conditions covered. >> while we waited to see if the president was coming back, his press secretary kayleigh mcenany came in with a hand delivery. >> the president wanted me to deliver the health care plan. this is heavy. >> oh, my, this is the health care plan? >> yes. >> thank you. >> the vice president will be with you shortly. >> thank you. the president is not coming back? >> it was heavy. filled with executive orders, congressional initiatives. but no comprehensive health plan. >> she didn't expect her to open it. it's heavy. >> what a joke. >> what joke indeed. >> they still have no plan. they haven't had a plan for a

decade. they have been campaigning against the affordable care act for a decade. and they have even talked about replacing it. but they still ten years later the republican party has not come up with a plan they can get behind to replace the affordable care act. they want to abolish it. >> that was chicanery. >> they think everybody is as stupid as they are. >> i guess so, but health care is really important to much of the american populous and it's at the center of many of the concerns with amy coney barrett who is being confirmed today. joining us now independent senator angus king of maine. senator king wrote an article for "the atlantic" entitled amy coney barrett's judicial philosophy doesn't hold up to scrutiny. so we'll start there.

senator king, welcome back to the show. tell us how it doesn't hold up. >> well, number one, one of the frustrating parts about this process is we have this kabuki dance of the hearings where the nominees won't tell you what they think. they say i can't talk about that, it may a case and they're trying to obscure where they're headed which is what we need to know when making a confirmation. like dating someone, and saying do you like to travel and your date says, well, i'm not sure we have to check that when you ask me to travel after we're married. this is a lifetime commitment. here's the other problem, she talks about being an originalist. it goes back to antonin scalia and a lot of conservative scholarship. they're saying the only thing you can look at when you interpret the constitution is the text, what it says and what the intention of the 55 men in

philadelphia in the summer of 1787 was. here's the problem, mika. it just doesn't make sense. the congress can raise an army and a navy, what about an air force? it's not mentioned in the text and the text is ambiguous and i don't think the guys in philadelphia thought about the wright brothers. is the air force unconstitutional? under the test it is. that's a small example. something like that is fairly easy. what about what does due process mean? is that obvious, can you determine that from what the fellows talked about in that convention? you really can't. you have to have a constitution and a supreme court that allows for some ethical and political

growth and they want to make it frozen in time and really here's the end point. mika, what these folks are really wanting to do is cripple the federal government. this is a theory, this originalism stuff has been invented as a cloak to cover a theory of constitutional practice that would take us back to 193 3 when the supreme court was knocking down all of the new deal and saying that's not something the federal government can do we are talking about things like the affordable care act but also the epa. the fda. trying to do something about climate change. this is a strategy to strangle the federal government via the u.s. supreme court. >> you know, one thing that -- one area where being an originalist would support an action a day would be actually

expanding or contracting the supreme court. it will, david, because the constitution said you can do it. washington did it. john adams did it and jefferson did it, andrew jackson, lincoln did it. the republicans after lincoln did it so if they want to go back to the founders and the original text, then i guess originalists would be on the front of those sort of changes. do you have a question for the senator? >> i do. senator, perhaps by the end of the day we'll have a supreme court that's 6-3 conservative. and the state of texas is bringing in an aca case to the supreme court. how do you expect that to come out on and on basis? >> well, amy coney barrett was very critical of the decision back in 2013 when the court upheld the aca. so there's an indicator although of course in her hearing she wouldn't answer the question,

but there's an indicator she is going to be negative. this means that john roberts can't be the deciding vote which he was in 2013. you know, even if roberts tries to or wants to uphold the law, you're still talking 5-4 with her on the court. this is what's awful about the whole process. this argument about the, aca, the affordable care act, the 10th of november, one week after the election, that's why this senate and this president are so hellbent to get this person on the court before that case. and then the president has said that he wants the election to be decided in the supreme court. he said we've -- this election is going to the supreme court. we have to get this judge on the court. that's -- you know, that's impropriety, if you will, that's a mild term for it in real time.

so i think the aca is very much in play and as you pointed out earlier there's no plan to replace it. i don't know what was in that thick volume, but a plan has been two weeks away for ten years and the president's signing an executive order saying we're not going to do pre-existing conditions has no meaning whatsoever. it's not worth the paper it's written on, it has no legal authority. all of the focusing saying for we're all for pre-existing conditions, but meanwhile we're gutting the affordable care act it's misleading the american people. and it's -- i'm tired of hearing that because it's just not true. >> all right. senator angus king, thank you very much. we want to go now to nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early," kasie hunt. outside the capitol this morning, a little chilly. kasie, i guess this is set to happen today. the confirmation with some democratic no shows.

>> that's right. mika, some context here. you know, democrats have tried as hard as they can obviously, senator king, who caucuses with them, is trying to hold them up but they haven't had any tools at their disposal so they can stretch this out into the night. the vote is set to happen this evening, 7:30 or so at night, unless democrats were to say you can do it earlier, which certainly we don't anticipate to happen. but just to pick up on something david remnick was talking about in terms of the election and don't forget the guys are leaving town right after this vote happens today to go back home and campaign because they're all fighting for their seats as well. they'll be doing it without passing a coronavirus relief package before they do it so people who are waiting for that are still going to have to wait until likely after the election. but think about what we're going to be grappling with just in the next seven, eight days before

election day. the court has already had several challenges in various states that they have had to deal with in one way or the other, related to how you count the ballots. there was a critical case in pennsylvania, another case in north carolina, related to okay, if you send your ballot in the mail and it doesn't arrive until three days later is it valid or not and the republicans have been arguing that shouldn't be counted and the democrats are on the opposite side of the argument and the court has been coming down on the side of the democrats. there could be additional cases that get all the way to the supreme court in the next few days and because the balance is going to be different as we were just pointing out here, it may not be john roberts making that swing vote. we may see more of those cases decided in republicans' favor that's something that my sources are looking at and that's affected by the speed with which

republicans are going in this confirmation process. don't forget, it was president trump a month ago talking about amy coney barrett and this has been an incredibly fast confirmation process. >> thank you very much. let's go back to david and you have a access to a portion of president obama's new book. >> you have access too, it's an excerpt in the new new yorker from a promise land which is barack obama's new memoir. and the excerpt that we have is on this subject, it's on the passage of the aca, the political battles, the inside discussions, the frustrations. the politics and what strikes me so much in reading this excerpt that's in the magazine this week and online on new yorker.com is the sanity of what's happening. contrasted to what we're

witnessing in the campaign. you have a president who is involved in real politics. it's not always pretty. the sausage making is not always pretty. the arguments are ferocious and sometimes they're in public and sometimes they're behind closed doors. but it's real politics. it's sane. it's not a president of the united states getting up in public and saying covid, covid, covid and as if it's a joke and then saying on november 4th you'll never hear about it again. it's someone grappling with an issue, a central issue, an american life that affects us all and that the political parties have been struggling with since truman and he finally gets through dint of politics, compromise, sometimes disappointing and gets something real done for the american people. sanity as opposed to its

opposite. the art of the possible as he calls it in this excerpt. and it's really fine piece of writing, i think, because it has this unique point of view. an intelligent, sane president dealing with a problem that affects american people's lives and how it gets passed. now we are at the stage of insanity, of the supreme threatening to get rid of this. of the president of the united states denying a pandemic and saying it's just a joke. the president of the united states who is involved as mika says repeatedly and rightfully in the super spreader events. i think by reading this it makes you sit up straight in your chair and realize that's very much what the choice is about. >> all right. david, thank you very much. jonathan lemire, you have a question for john heilemann. >> oh, i have lots of questions

for john heilemann but i'll do one about the election. john, we were talking earlier about -- hi, good morning. we were talking earlier about how the biden camp is trying to press and pressure trump to play defense in states like texas and georgia and tonight the president is expected to preside over swearing in of the new supreme court justice amy coney barrett at the white house. recreating a south lawn event, an image i'm not sure that a lot of voters want to see again. but he'll do so after returning from an entire day in pennsylvania. that is where both campaigns feel it could be the electoral college tipping point. he has three events there and more stops later in the week. i want to see what you're seeing in the state. we know that the president is trying to run up the score and play the rural towns the red "t"

and we know the polls are closer in pennsylvania than say michigan or wisconsin. what's your assessment of that state? >> yeah. i mean, i think in a close election, jonathan, i think there it's -- that it's possible that pennsylvania could be the most important state on the map in a close election. i think at this point looking at everything we are seeing there's at least -- i mean, you know, there's at least a 40% chance this is not a close election and it's a complete democratic blowout. you have a 40% chance than we have a closer election and it's a razor thin margin and 20% chance that donald trump shocks us all and you you think of the midwest battleground states, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, three things are clear. two of the things are clear that joe biden has had a very consistent lead in michigan and

wisconsin and kind of consistently been outside of the margin of error and has biden over 50% in the two states so the president's team has focused on pennsylvania. the polling showed him tighter than either of the other two in the midwest and if they can somehow block biden there and hold everything else, hold everything else that they won in 2016 they could hold on narrowly to victory. that's kind of the way they saw it. now, look, i mean, the problem for them is -- i agree, i think pennsylvania is tighter than michigan and wisconsin. it makes sense for president to be putting more effort into pennsylvania if you think about that cluster of states. the problem right now is that it does not look like the president's going to hold on to all of the other states that he won in 2016. you know, they are sort of looking at arizona as if arizona might be gone. we have already talked about florida. and then there's the north

carolina numbers which are amazing. cal cunningham who had two sex scandals and is still up by four points and you see thom tillis, narrowly, over 50% and over 50% means in a race with no meaningful third party presence which makes it different from 2016, over 50% doesn't matter how much donald trump makes up on election day he still falls short. in that world the president can pour all the time and resources he wants in pennsylvania and it's not enough for him. but it makes sense, it makes sense that's where they're going to play it because they are really looking at a grim scenario in wisconsin and michigan, in that region. >> all right. john heilemann, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," coronavirus infection rates are rising across the country. >> president trump continues to push his false claim that the increase in cases is due to an

increase in testing. we'll talk to a woman who was told that she had the virus, but tests would not confirm it. you're watching "morning joe." st you're watching "morning joe."

back in january, we knew that this was really, really bad. we had ample forewarning. but we did almost no testing, almost no contact tracing. completely ignored the science, completely ignored the warning signs. there were things that could have been done. a lot of people have died needlessly, and there's nothing more frustrating than feeling like you're fighting against someone who should have your back. we are not going to stamp this out unless we have a change of leadership. ff pac is responsible for the content of this ad. - with the ninja foodito intelligesmart xl grill.ing

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since yesterday we lost an additional 31 lives for a total of 9,418 deaths. these are people who started with us in 2020 and won't be who us at the thanksgiving table. to date, we are reporting 3,874 new cases for a total of 36433 confirmed cases since the start of this pandemic. excuse me, please.

our message to you is to stay strong. i have never run a marathon but i have the utmost regard for those who can train and finish a marathon. but this is a difficult race when you can't actually see the end point and i'm sorry that that's the message i have for you. nevertheless, i'm asking you to fight the fatigue. fight the usual to give up on social distancing. >> that was dr. ezike, director of the department of public health in a moment that captured the emotional toll when she broke down on friday during a news briefing as she delivered an update on number of lives lost. she has lost relatives to the virus and said over the weekend that she's received hundreds of

emails since the news conference and that quote it sounds like everyone needed to have that release together. joining us now, correspondent for "gq" magazine julia ioffe who herself went through a very difficult bout with covid-19. julia, you know more than many how difficult this can be. and you're here to talk about your piece and testing or lack of the ability for the testing to work, but first, tell us how you're doing and what it was like for you. >> thank you so much for asking, mika. it was insane. it was very strange. i was sick for a good five weeks and for a lot of it, you know, it was very up and down and every time i thought i was getting better i would get worse. like the president, i did a course of steroids and like the president i felt amazing and symptom free and then, you know, as soon as they left my system i

crashed and ended up in the er because i couldn't breathe and what's crazy is i tested negative four times. >> so the tests didn't help you out in terms of understanding that you had coronavirus at all? >> yes. excuse me, that's right. i was diagnosed clinically, based on the symptoms. i had the classic constellation of symptoms, loss of taste and smell and difficulty breathing. the dry, crazy cough. the thing with the testing it tests most -- in d.c. it's mostly just swipes of your nostrils and the virus descends pretty quickly down into the lungs. so while i call them false negatives in the story they might not actually be false negatives. there might not have been the

virus in my nose or someone else's nose. if it's in the lungs, the only way to test that is if someone is severely ill and intubated to get if fluid from the lungs which i was never able to do thankfully. so it definitely missed this one. >> i know you had a hard time with this and you were kind enough to share on twitter what it was like for you because it was a difficult bout. but what is the test results that you got, what does that tell us about testing and what did you find in your reporting because the president is always saying we have high numbers because we do more testing. like that somehow mitigates everything else that's going on with this virus. >> yeah. >> is that the case? >> obviously not. i think the other thing is, you know, i just -- just to answer the previous question a little more, i could have had a very low viral load, it was enough to make me sick, but not enough to show up on the as for our situation with testing, i think, especially

over the summer and now going into the fall, people grew very complacent. testing was widely available in a lot of places in the country and people thought i just got tested and i tested negative, so, you know, i can go join my friends at a beach house or, you know, see my family and like fly and see my family. if you are not changing your behavior, if you are not isolating, not social distancing, not wearing a mask, the tests are just a snapshot in time. they are not therapeutic, they are not preventative and they can give you a false sense of comfort. when i got my first negative test i thought i had a cold. thankfully, my mother and sisters who are doctors said stay home, do not see anyone, quarantine, do not even go to the grocery store just in case. but i was definitely tempted to be like, see, it's just a cold, i can go out and see people again and i coffin effected a lot of people that way.

>> let's go to katty kay. you can ask about another mysterious illness she is writing about. >> yeah, thank you for sharing. we certainly have a problem with isolation and quarantining here. i can't believe while you have been sick you have been working on another piece. it's fascinating, this story. i vaguely remember it was like a mystery, the story of these weird sonic noises that american diplomats were hearing in cuba and then we heard reports of them in china, too. you have looked into it much more deeply. what have you found? >> what we found was quite disturbing. i talked to a man who retired in july of 2019. he was a very senior cia official who, in 2017, had been tasked with kind of getting tough on russia covertly and pushing back against russian active measures across europe and eurasia. on a trip to moscow to talk to his counterparts in the russian

clandestine services he got terribly violently ill with something very in mysterious. when he came back he and his colleagues at the cia realized that this lines up with what we had read from the diplomats -- remember, this was 2017, still early days. but from there we know that it spread to china where american diplomats and trade officials started reporting similar things. they hear strange sounds, feel a buzz, like a pressure and a pain th in their heads, dizziness, nausea, more long term they can't sleep, can't concentrate, can't work. a lot of people have been forced into retirement. these attacks have happened on the soil of friendly countries. the soil of our allies, georgia, poland, taiwan, australia, london, and even, unfortunately, in the united states on american soil in philadelphia and in

arlington, virginia, which is a suburb of washington, d.c. >> julia, thank you, we are so glad you are better. glad to have you back on the show and glad to have you reporting, as well. gq's julia ioffe. errin haines, final thoughts here, what are you looking at today? got the confirmation happening on capitol hill. but the election rolling on. >> absolutely, mika. and i think we are going to continue to see record turnout as early voting winds down. i want to caution people, yes, that is definitely an indicator of voter enthusiasm, but it is also an indicator of voter suppression and we should not just be characterizing these citizens as heroes. we should be pointing out that this should not be happening. people should not be waiting in hours-long lines to exercise their right to participate in this democracy, especially in a

pandemic. i have a story up today at 19th news talking to former attorney general eric holder about the threat of voter suppression particularly to women who, was we know, make up the majority of the electorate. >> errin haines, thank you very much. coming up, another covid outbreak at the white house. this time from the vice president's office. the vice president who is in charge of the coronavirus task force, it's in his office now. we will explain why -- >> and he is going around the country. >> even though people who work directly with him have it. >> if yhe follows the cdc guidelines he would quarantine himself, just like we all would. >> we'll be right back. >> but he won't. e won't.

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here's what we have to do. we are not going to control the pandemic. we are going to control the fact that we get vaccines,

therapeutics and other mitigation -- >> why aren't we going to get control of the pandemic? >> because it is a contagious virus just like the flu. >> so we're not going to control the pandemic? >> that's amazing. i mean, that is -- i mean, that goes down, of course, pick -- i guess you could have mcarthur on the "uss missouri" at the end of world war ii accepting the surrender of the japanese or maybe roberto duran in his second fight in 1980 with sugar ray leonard throwing up his arms and saying no mas. >> 226,000 people are dead. >> yeah, with 226,000 people dead, this is where it ends. this is where -- >> we are not going to control the pandemic. >> this is where the white house's response to the pandemic ends with them finally, after six, seven, eight months of lying to the american people, and making matters much worse,

finally just giving up and saying, we can't control the pandemic, when, of course, you can control the pandemic. there are things that you can do that can hold the pandemic in check, but you can't do that when you spend six, seven, eight months lying to the american people saying it's one person coming in from china and soon they are going to be gone and then a month later in february saying it's 15 people coming in and soon they are going to be gone and it's going to be down to zero, thanking president xi as president trump is on behalf of the american people on january 24th, and then in the spring saying it's going to go away in april. remember the president telling you repeatedly, seniors, this was going to magically go away in april and he was going to open up the country by easter? that didn't happen. but then by memorial day, because it was going to magically go away. but it didn't.

we had spikes in texas, spikes in arizona, spikes in florida, and, yes, as we warned at the time, it was the senior citizens who were disproportionately impacted and then, of course, anthony fauci trying to tell america to protect seniors, that this was going to come back in the fall. >> big time. >> and what did the president say on that stage with anthony fauci? it's not going to come back in the fall. anthony fauci had to go back up and say it's coming back in the fall. and, you know, mika, i guess younger people who want to be lied to, who love to be lied to, who will look at conspiracy theories, that claim that all of this is just like the flu, they can say what they want to say, but they know they are liars. they know they are lying to themselves and they know they

are lying to other because donald trump himself is on tape admitting this is five times as bad as the flu, that this is contagious, that this is dangerous, and that seniors will die and that younger people will die. that's what the president said. it is very interesting, mika, that president of the united states continues to hold super-spreader events. >> all across the country. >> and what does his chief of staff say when he is waving the white flag, when he is quitting, admitting that the white house is giving up, as yet another breakout is taking place inside of the white house? he said, this is a virus. it's contagious. it's tough. so this is where it ends. with them just giving up. okay, well, they are doing it just in time because americans go and vote, continue to vote,

and next tuesday the voting stops. >> yeah. >> and this will, obviously, for senior citizens, this will play a major role in how they vote. as you are going out to vote, especially if you are a senior, just read in any newspaper, just grabbed this from "usa today" on friday, the president has participated in nearly three dozen rallies since mid-august, all but two at airport hang alternate routes. covid cases grew at a faster rate than before, at least five rallies in the following counties, and it lists the counties, including a wisconsin county. this is crazy. he is holding super-spreader events. the virus is spreading more rapidly because of him. he has got a trail of germs that he is spreading across the country in the final days of his campaign. it's incredible to me the people that choose to believe him at this point. >> well, listen, they know he is

lying. they are voting -- >> why would you expose yourself to the coronavirus? >> they think they are young, they think they are fine. >> i think they believe them. i think they think it's a hoax. who would do that to themselves? there were 1,500 cases in those counties in the two weeks after trump held rallies there. >> with us we have washington anchor from bbc news america katty kay, jonathan lemire and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. mika, the white house is dealing with yet another outbreak of covid-19. >> this is a white house that can't even keep it from themselves. five of vice president mike pence's aides have tested positive for the virus, including his chief of staff marc short. the vice president's office said in a statement on saturday night that short began quarantine and that he was cooperating with contact tracing. a source also tells nbc news that pence's senior policy

advisor marty obst also tested positive. the vice president has tested negative and will continue to travel for the campaign. really? he held a rally in north carolina yesterday. his office said in a statement, while vice president pence is considered a close contact with mr. short, who is positive, in consultation with the white house medical unit, the vice president will maintain his schedule in accordance with the cdc guidelines for essential personnel. what is that, scott atlas? who told him to go on the road. >> it's not cdc guidelines. and he continues to break cdc guidelines. he continues to -- let's really quickly, jonathan lamire, the vice president, the breakout continues inside the white house. the vice president continues to break all guidelines. we saw even on the debate his wife comes up on stage, only person in there, not wearing a mask as well. what's going on?

do the rules just not apply to mike pence? >> well, let's remember, joe, that mike pence, who is flouting the cdc designs, he is the head of the white house coronavirus task force. he is the head of the task force. it seems as it the rules shifted and do not apply to him. we know this outbreak began late last week and over the weekend. we have up to five of his top aides, including according to "the washington post" his body man have tested positive for coronavirus. his chief of staff marc short, who was in close contact and traveled with the president several days last week. short known around the white house for never wearing a mask and downplaying, one of the loudest voices in the building downplaying the severity of the covid-19 outbreak. and the president, the vice president at least so far has given no indication his schedule will change. he had a rally in north carolina

yesterday. he is slated to go to minnesota today. it should be noted there was an effort from chief of staff mark meadows to suppress this information, not release publicly there was an outbreak in the vice president's office. that he did not want that to be -- he told meme he was taking cues from the president. he didn't want that to be a central argument in the race's final eight or nine days. but it is. and it shows. yeah, after yesterday, his statement on the sunday shows, which of course is required to achieve so much attention where he said the white house is not trying to control the pandemic. and the white houlate white hou said they are focused on therapeutics and vaccines and so on. inadvertently he raise the curtain to what their strategy has been all along, or lack thereof, they have not had a full force effort to control the spread of this pandemic through testing or social distancing or, of course, requiring masks or at least advocating their use as a

role model. the president himself, he indeed continues to hold these massive events. i was with him yesterday in manchester, new hampshire. there were several thousand people there. no social distancing. some wore masks more than perhaps usual at a trump event, but not even 50%. and he has got three more scheduled today in pennsylvania, a pace that only picks up as the week goes on, an election date nears. the president and team, their rhetoric on the coronavirus has not changed. they are saying despite the outbreak in the vice president's office, they are saying incorrectly that the nation has rounded the corner. >> up next, more of mark meadows's waving the white flag. we will show you a longer cut of the white house chief of staff saying, quote, we are not going to control the pandemic. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. woo! you are busy...

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here is more of what mark meadows, chief of staff, said in that interview yesterday with cnn's jake tapper. >> i spoke to the vice president last night at midnight and i can tell you that what is he doing is wearing a mask, socially distancing. when he speaks he takes the mask off, put it back on. he is wearing a mask as it relates to this particular thing because the doctors have advised him to do that. and so, jake, when we start to look at this, you know, here's where we really need to make sure, on your website yesterday, jake, you know, your website is talking about, well now we think the spread is coming from small social groups and family groups. first it was large groups. now it's small groups. now -- >> it's coming from all sorts of places because the pandemic is out of control. >> here's what we have to do. we are not going to control the pandemic. we are going to control the fact that we get vaccines, therapeutics and other

mitigation -- >> why aren't we going to get control of the pandemic? >> because it is a contagious virus just like the flu. >> why not make efforts to contain it? >> we are making efforts to contain it. >> but running all over the country not wearing a mask? that's what the vice president is doing. >> let me just a say this. what we need to do is make sure that we have the proper mitigation factors, therapies vaccines or treatments to make sure that people don't die from this. to suggest that we are going to actually quarantine all of america -- >> i never said that. no one is saying that. >> well, they are. joe biden is saying that. he says lock everybody down. >> that's not what he said. >> we are going to have a dark winter -- >> that's whatable health offic say. >> mark meadows, seriously, how he does that and sleepts at night, he is just lying to you. he is lying through his teeth. joe biden didn't say he is going to lock down the country. by the way, the dark winter that's coming, that's what

anthony fauci, that's what scott gottlieb, that's what every health care professional predicted, when, last week? >> months ago. >> no, in the spring. i was talking to zeke emanuel before the outbreak even went to -- in the middle of march, and zeke said, joe, we are going to have a bad outbreak in the spring. guess what? look at the pandemic of 1918. it will be worse in the fall. we all knew that because, guess what? we don't live in medieval times. we are able to look at science. we are able to look at math. we are able to look -- i am not able to look at math, i'm not good at math, but i'm able to take the advice of epidemiologists. i'll take the advice of doctors, and they were telling us in march we were going to have a dark winter. that it was going to be worse.

>> joe, he knows that. >> he knows it, and he's lying. he is willing to let people die because that's what donald trump wants him to say. mark meadows, who doesn't care if you live or die from the pandemic, because he just cares about following the president's advice. he says, we can't control the pandemic. really? you can. but if you are a part of a white house operation that sends people out and has super-spreader events every day, and then, mika, what they did this past weekend. by the way, you look at all the events where they are shoving people together, and then they are mocking jeff mason for wearing a mask. actually not only are you not working to contain the virus. you're actually working to actively spread the virus. >> i agree. >> mika -- >> you are working to make sure

people get it. i am sorry, people will die. >> let's go through what happened this past weekend. >> sure, starting on friday, trump held a speakerphone call with the leaders of israel and sudan in the oval office where the majority of guests that surrounded him in a pathetic way, because the patient always needs a lot of people around him applauding him, yeah. so in that meeting trump once again mocked reuters white house reporter correspondent jeff mason for practicing the preventative measure of wearing a mask in this crowded maskless room. >> this is jeff mason. he's got a mask on. it's the largest mask i have ever seen, so i don't know if you can hear him. >> by the way, it's really remarkable that you are thinking about voting for that man.

really it's staggering. you get information from facebook that says that anthony fauci is in some secret cabal that's going to make billions of dollars on a vaccine. that's a lie. you can't be that stupid. you say it's no worse than the flu. no. donald trump himself in february, it's on tape, so please get off your stupid qanon sites, get off your stupid facebook sites, turn your head away from whatever tv station is telling you this is just like the flu because even donald trump said that was a lie it bob woodward back in february. >> look at the number on the screen. >> katty kay, here you have a president who mocked and ridiculed jeff mason for wearing a mask a couple of months back sq asking a question, ordered that he took off a mask later.

once again, this is, what, some sort of macho thing, getting a ball pin hammer and hitting yourself in the front of your forehead? he might as well do that. look how cool i am and hit yourself in the head with a hammer. that's what he is doing. he is sending the message to other americans to do the same thing, that somehow there is machoism, that it's defined by how reckless you are with a pandemic that has now killed twice as many americans than died in the world war i. >> yeah. the cdc's own guidelines are clear on this. if you are in a crowded space, particularly indoors, and we all know the oval office is small and they were crowded, you try to social distance, you wear a mask, and this coming from the government itself at the same time there is a brand-new study out from nature medicine saying

if we had universal mask-wearing in the united states we could save 130,000 lives potentially. all it would take for people to wear a mask. why? because the people in a position of influence wear it, too, and that is then a role modeling behavior that could help the whole country. and i think every immunologist that i speak to, every doctor i speak to says we have to trust our governments. the countries that have done well in handling the coronavirus have two things. people are prepared to abide by the rules and the guidelines, and people trust the people in a position of authority. and the confusing message that we are getting from the white house on the issue of masks and on a whole host of other security issues breaks down that trust and that's why people don't wear the masks. it was interesting straight after the president came out of hospital, more people at the rallies were wearing masks. now we are back to normal and almost nobody is. but jeff mason is quite right. put the mask on. >> coming up, amid a new surge

of covid-19, president trump takes issue with testing data and journalism. "morning joe" is coming right back. " is coming right back i'm greg, i'm 68 years old. i do motivational speaking in addition to the substitute teaching. i honestly feel that that's my calling-- to give back to younger people. i think most adults will start realizing that they don't recall things as quickly as they used to or they don't remember things as vividly as they once did. i've been taking prevagen for about three years now. people say to me periodically, "man, you've got a memory like an elephant."

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out. trump went on to hold a series

of outdoor rallies where his screaming supporters packed themselves tightly together, most not wearing masks. amid the spiking case numbers across the country, the president mocked news outlets for their coverage of the virus. and repeated his false claim that the increase in cases is due to an increase in testing. and appeared to call into question the u.s. death toll from the virus. >> that's all i hear about now, that's all i hear u-turn on television, covid, covid, covid, covid, a plane goes down, 500 people dead, they don't talk about it. covid, covid, covid, covid. by the way, on november 4th you won't hear about it anymore. covid! covid-19! please don't go and vote, covid. do not under any circumstances, you cannot go out and vote. except the problems are that in florida the people that are going out to vote, nobody's ever seen anything like it because

they're tired of all of this stuff. they're tired of such negativity. by the way, i had it. here i am. i mean, you know. here i am. >> mr. president, there is some cases, some coronavirus cases rising in wisconsin. >> you use the word cases. you know why there are so many cases? because we test. because we test more than any country. any country in the world, nobody tests like us. cases, everybody uses the word cases. mortality way down. way down. and a lot of those cases that you're talking about are young people. very young people that get better 99.9. they get better almost immediately. no. use the word case because you are trying to scare people. don't scare people. don't scare people. >> we understand this disease. we are going to take care of our seniors and people that are really susceptible, especially seniors with diabetes, seniors with problems with the heart.

you know, some countries, they report differently. if somebody's sick with a heart problem and they die of covid, they say they died of a heart problem. if somebody's terminally ill with cancer and they have covid, we report them. and, you know, doctors get more money and hospitals get more money. think of this incentive. so some countries do it differently. if somebody is very sick with a bad heart, they die of covid, they don't get reported as covid. so then you wonder why their cases are so low. this country and the reporting systems are not doing it right. if somebody has a really bad heart and then close to death, even if they are not, they have a very bad heart and they get covid, they put it down to covid. other countries put it down to a heart. so we are going to start looking at things because they have things a little bit backwards. they have things a little bit backwards. >> no, you're the one that has

things not a little bit backwards. i mean, going around and lying to people. coming up with conspiracy theories. >> not worrying about their health. >> if they say that somebody died of covid, whole idea that actually you know this because you talked to bob woodward about it back in february that it's people with other conditions that are far more susceptible to dying of covid. i have children that have underlying conditions that will be completely fine unless they get covid. and then one child who is a diabetic will not be fine. one child who has upper respiratory problems will struggle. people with asthma, struggle. people with diabetes, struggle. people with underlying conditions struggle. i mean what you're saying to the crowds just so stupid. and it puts people at risk and

is part, rev, of a conspiracy theory. you preach the gospel. this guy preaches conspiracy theories. he still, he still is lying to the american people going into the final week of the campaign about covid, and he is still grasping wildly for conspiracy theories. and it just leads me to ask, how have so many people been fooled? how have so many of my friends and family members either been fooled or just don't care that he is putting senior citizens' lives at risk? they know, by the way, they know better because while they spew these conspiracy theories, guess what they're doing at the same time? they are protecting members of their own family who have underlying conditions. isn't that interesting? that they'll spew hatred and

lies about covid for people outside, but when it's time to take care of their own, oh my god, it's the boy in the plastic bubble or the girl in the plastic bubble. suddenly they take care of their own because they know it's true. and they know the guy they are supporting is a liar and they know that he is putting americans' health at risk every day, rev. yet, they vote for him anyway. >> when my white house chief of staff meadows said they can't contain the coronavirus he should have added they really can't contain the president. i mean, to have the president running around having these super-spreaders and saying these conspiracy theories is only adding to the problem and the increase, and as you rightfully say spreading the virus. and for those that are in denial

about this, while at the same time in denial of doing everything to protect their loved ones, it's the height of hypocrisy. the way you begin is the way you end. i honestly feel with the turnouts we are seeing around the country, this will be the end of the trump presidency and he is going out playing to fraudulent theories, hyping things like he hyped birtherism and all, which was a fraud, hyping this thing of the conspiracy that we're just recording deathsi wrong. that is as flaj ent as birtherism is. he is going out the way he came in, on frauds. >> and coming up, how is this for a title? a history of american betrayal from benedict arnold to donald trump. author david roth joins us with his new book "traitor" trastrai ahead on morning zero. tor" trstt ahead on morning zero.

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ithere were tsunamisde fourtin the world.

and once they happened, we were in a major hurry to get to those regions to provide aid and support. it was very humbling to be able to help out all those people. it's my dream now to go into clean energy and whatever the next new fuel source is, that's where i want to be. i want to be on the front lines of implementation. want to put it on the air. >> no, as a matter of fact, i don't know that. >> okay. >> you are out there -- >> why don't you get back to your interview and let's go. >> do you think that your tweets and your name-calling are turning people off? >> no, i think i wouldn't be here if i didn't have social media, but the media is fake. and, frankly, if i didn't have social media, i'd have no way of getting out my voice. >> do you know what you told me a long time ago when i asked why you keep saying fake media? you said to me, i say that because i need to discredit you

so that when you say negative things about me, no one will believe you. >> i don't have to discredit you. you discredited yourself. >> you know, i didn't want to have this kind of angry -- >> of course you did. >> no i didn't. >> of course you did. >> no, i didn't. >> you brought up a lot of subjects that were inappropriately brought up. right from the beginning. no, your first question was this is going to be tough questions. you don't ask joe biden -- i saw your interview with joe, the interview with joe biden. >> i never did a joe biden enter zhu the interview, "60 minutes." i see joe biden giving softball after softball. i have seen all of his interviews. he has never been asked a question that's hard. >> okay, but forget him for a minute -- >> no you start with me -- >> you start -- >> excuse me. you started with me. the first statement was, are you ready for tough questions? >> are you? >> that's no way to talk. that's no way to talk. >> at this point one of our

producers interrupted to advise about the time remaining in the interview. >> i think we have enough of an interview, hope? okay. that's enough. let's go. let's go. let's go meet for two seconds, okay? thanks. i'll see you later. thanks. >> that's when donald trump quit. he quit his "60 minutes" interview because of tough questions. so many things to talk about in such a short space of tape, and this is really how donald trump numbs his audience. this is really how donald trump numbs his supporters into believing not the big lie, not the big -- this isn't the big lie as anne applebaum wrote in twilight of democracy. it's a middle sized lie. for instance, you bring up this bogus story that "the wall street journal" refused to run

because they couldn't verify it. it was a false story. ben smith with "the new york times" had a great column wiabo that, about the return of the gatekeepers. some of the major news outlets aren't being intimidated into running articles just because, you know, right-wing media, not conservative media, but right-wing media frantically suggested if they don't, they are biased. but donald trump just said there that this story about joe biden was truth. it's been, quote, proven. no, it was actually disproven the night of the debate. it was disproven when "the wall street journal" reported, despite the lies told on their editorial page, when "the wall street journal" reported, said that it actually, biden didn't have anything to do with that deal, which was never

consummated. also, how fascinating that donald trump says it's, quote, inappropriate for lesley stahl to ask tough questions. inappropriate to say she is going to ask tough questions. he really did, and it's just really fascinating at this point to look how much that donald trump resembles an autocratic leader from eastern europe, whether it's belarus or whether it's russia. actually, though he kills journalists, vladimir putin on camera actually seems a little more willing to answer tough questions when they are asked of him. donald trump can't even handle that. of course, donald trump would kill reporters if he could get away with it. i think even his strongest supporters would admit trump would do whatever he could get away with. it's unfortunate for him that he

actually is in charge of the executive branch in a country with a constitution that was written by james madison and others who actually foresaw the rise of tyrants and figured out a pretty damn good effective way to hold them at bay. let's bring in right now author david rothkopf, he has a new book called "traitor." a history of american betrayal from benedict arnold to donald trump. very provocative title. david rothkopf was deputy editor under secretary of commerce in the clinton administration and has taught at johns hopkins, columbia university, and georgetown. david, thank you for being with us. talk about the title. very provocative title. "traitor," a history of american betrayal from benedict arnold to donald trump. would you really put donald trump in benedict arnold's category? >> i would, because the issue

is, has the president betrayed the country? you know, usually at this time you get to an election, four years in, you say are you better off now than you were when you started out or what policy issues do you agree or disagree with. but the presidency begins with an oath. it begins with a promise to the american people to preserve, protect and defend the constitution. kind of issues you were just talking about. and we have to ask ourselves with donald trump something we have not had to ask ourselves with any president, which is has he upheld his oath of office. has he preserved to protect and defend the constitution? the dictionary definition of traitor is to betray your country. he started out by reaching out to our enemies, meeting with them frequently, and ultimately defending them and rewarding them. you saw it in the clip that you just ran. the president of the united states said he was spied on. it's not just a lie.

the people he is talking about were defending the country and he's trying to spin it that they were the ones that were wrong for looking into his ties to a foreign enemy and how he sought to undermine democracy. and if you look at his presidency from beginning to end, whether it's russia or whether it's serving himself and enriching himself or whether it's putting himself before the country and dealing with covid, it's one betrayal after another. it's one failure to uphold his sacred oath after another. >> katty kay is with us and has a question. katty. >> yeah, i was wondering what you thought about young people and democracy and this notion of betrayal and whether they feel it's not just about donald trump, but that democracy itself looks increasingly flawed. i think there was a story in "the new york times" in the last day or two about this notion that they feel a whole system in

a sense has let them down, betrayed them, and how do you reinvigorate the purpose of democracy in this climate? >> well, i think you put your finger on a really important point because i think the next president is going to have a real job of work that no prior president has had, which is how do you restore faith in american democracy. among our voters first, but also among countries around the world. for the past 75 years, we have been out there as a champion of democracy and also as an illustration of effective democracy, and now our democracy is a laughing stock not just because of voter suppression, but because of steps such as the steps taken by bill barr and the president to obstruct justice, by sending federal forces into the streets against peaceful protesters. and so all of the things that we said work, don't work. and i think young voters who are

being exposed to this for the first time are asking themselves, because all their experience was in the trump administration, whether this is a fundamentally flawed system and whether it can be repaired. >> the ap's jonathan lamire is with us an has a question. jonathan. >> david, of course there is always been a lot of comparisons between the conduct in office of donald trump and richard nixon. we know when nixon resigned he was pardoned by gerald ford. my question to you is, obviously, if donald trump is not president anymore, that means most likely joe biden is. not of the same party. what should happen next? do you believe it would be good for the country for a series of investigations, criminal and otherwise, into donald trump? what sort of role, if any, should joe biden have? what sort of rhetoric and approach should joe biden take if this were to happen? >> i think you bring up another

excellent point. richard nixon was pardoned. the iran contra figures were pardon end. barack obama made the not to pursue or investigate torture and other abuses of international law by the bush administration. and with each instance of that, things got worse. the window for misbehavior by the president got wider, and now you end up with a president of the united states who, in conjunction with his attorney general and in conjunction with the senate majority, have essentially said i'm above the law. and if you want to do what i was just talking to katty about, if you want to restore democracy, you have to hold them accountable. you have to move that if you obstruct justice, if you place yourself above the law, you are going to be investigated fairly and based on the facts you are going to be held accountable. and if we don't do that, then we are going to send a message to

future generations the presidents are above the law, that they can collude with foreign enemies to their heart's content, that if their senate majority supports them they effectively can't be impeached, and there are rules within our own department of justice that make justice very unlikely for a sitting president. the corollary of a rule that makes it unlikely for a sitting president is we have an obligation to make it extremely likely for someone post-presidency or there is no justice at all. >> so, david, i think the justice department guidelines saying the president can't be indicted is ridiculous. i think donald trump's presidency has shown time and again that our belief that no man is above the law has not applied to donald trump, and

it's a grave problem. and at the same time i'm very concerned, i'm concerned when i hear you talking about post-presidency arrests and you talked about george w. bush. i remember when people were calling for george w. bush to be investigated and possibly tried. i warned that eight years from then republicans might do that to barack obama. and certainly if they had chosen to do that for drone strikes where american citizens were killed, somebody could have decided to bring a charge up there, or bring up other charges in a highly partisan atmosphere. how do we hold donald trump accountable without sending a message to future presidents that if you lose, you are going to be facing charges the types

of which, of course, gerald ford pardoned for richard nixon, also the types of which people were pressing in 2009 for barack obama to pursue against george w. bush. >> it's a fine line. you walk the line fine line in the way joe biden did saying it's not my department of justice, it's the united states department of justice. i am not going to direct it in any way to pursue justice and i don't think political officials should be directing the process. nonetheless, there are laws, and the laws need to be followed. and the laws need to be followed by everybody, and nobody can be above the law as the president sought to present himself and as barr and mcconnell have effectively made trump. so, if we want to be a nation of laws and if we want no one to be above the law, then we need fair, impartial, fact-based

investigations. and if people have broken the law, they need to be held accountable. and so, you know, we can't err to far on one side or the other. that's the balance required in a democracy. and so the trial such as any trial that would take place, has to be considered to be above reproach. and the president and the political figures need to stay out of it. but if we ignore it, we open the door to further abuse. we've seen that happen time and time again over the course of the past 40 years. and we have to ask ourselves, are we willing to live up to the oath that every senior official takes to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the united states? >> the new book is "traitor: a history of american betrayal from benedict arnold to donald trump." david rothkopf, thanks for being with us. "the new york times" is out with his latest reporting on the president's finances. and it seems much of donald

trump's charitable giving didn't actually come out of his own pocket. keep it right here on "morning joe." ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ the latest installment of "the new york times" series on donald trump's tax returns reveals his charitable givings appear largely -- what a shock. trump's record shows much of the charitable commitments came from land deals that offset his income. the paper writes this. the vast bulk of his charitable

tax deductions, $119.3 million worth, came from simply agreeing not to develop land. in several cases, after he had already shelved those development plans. meanwhile, global citizen reports that during the pandemic, billionaires fortunes reached $10.2 trillion. that's the highest amount of money ever owned by the world's wealthiest. at the same time the pandemic caused global poverty rates to rise for the first time in 20 years. with that in mind, as "forbes" unveils america's 400 list of wealthiest people, for the first time it's changed the way it measures philanthropy as part of the ranking. let's bring in chief content officer for forbes, randall lane, hugh evans, and a managing considering at cvc capital,

chris stadler. thank you for being with us. randall, start out telling us the new way "forbes" is ranking the wealthiest 400 individuals. >> you hit it with what's going on about the reports. it's about fairness. that's what you're seeing a lot of the political tumult and a lot of the resentment. we have billionaires, american billionaires that have made about $700 billion since the bottom of the pandemic as the market has gone up. what we're doing now, we've been measuring philanthropy since 2018. now we're now measuring based on how much you're actually giving today to help the problems of today. not to park in a foundation. not to put in a donor advised fund and nobody can see what's going on with it. not the pledge but to actually put money to solve the problems of today. >> katty kay? >> hugh, on the whole question of philanthropy. we've seen how much billionaires have made. but if we live in a world in

which we rely on those billionaires to give a proportion of their income to help the neediest, isn't that fundamentally a problem? wouldn't it be much better to be focusing on shoring up a robust social safety net so that we weren't at the mercy of the whims of a billionaire who wants to give this year and then perhaps doesn't want to give next year? >> ultimately, you touch on a really important point. if we're going to address extreme poverty we have to look at the structures that enable poverty to persist in the first place. yes, we need to address the systemic causes. but while, as randall said, there are 633 billionaires in the united states, and only ten of them are giving any meaningful money away on an annual basis, we also need to address that because during this pandemic, they have amassed an estimated $10 trillion. and if all of them were as generous, as, say, what warren buffett is currently, we could

extend extreme poverty three times over. and while the world is facing so many challenges, we've got a hunger crisis on the horn of africa, a climate crisis you see in northern california, we've got an ongoing pandemic, an education crisis with 1.5 billion children out of school. we know we need to change the way philanthropy works. this partnership between global citizen and "forbes 400" is the first step in that process. >> the ap's jonathan lemire. >> chris, as we just highlighted, this is certainly a remarkably challenging year. telluo us why it's so importanto have this new approach, the give while you live dynamic which you guys are unveiling. walk us through what that means in such a turbulent 2020. >> well, you know, as has been noted, it's needed now more than ever. and our idea was to get the billionaires to step up now, to pledge to give 5% of their

wealth annually to elevate efforts to help marginalize communities, including people of color, including those facing discrimination. and we launched back in january because at that time it was already obvious that the world was off track and solving some of these -- our most pressing problems. and our aim was to have the world's most influential philanthropists come on our stage at our festivals and announce their intent to help. once covid struck, it became clear not only was this necessary for the long term but the short-term needs were so extreme. hugh talked about some of the problems that we're facing. and it's clear, now is the time for them to step up. >> you know, randall, we've been talking for a decade now, actually 20 years now, about demographic changes coming to america that were going to impact voting. mainly focusing on the absolute explosion of the hispanic population. i remember the bush brothers warning the republicans in the

late '90s, you better get right with hispanics. if you don't, they're going to vote you out of office. that was 20 years. yet something else is happening, too. younger voters. they've been pushed away from the republican party over the past four years. for some fairly obvious reasons. you took an under 30 voter survey from "forbes." tell us what you found. >> we've been doing a tracking survey all year. generally for the last few months, biden has been hitting 60% nationwide of voters under 30 and that's being driven, obviously, a lot by young black and young hispanic voters. but we've seen that really consistently. we're in the field now. the last poll, 57% in june. it was 60%. we've seen it consistently, a very large majority. obviously, that's a problem for the republican party because you're talking about a very large generation with younger

millennials and gen-z being baked in about 2 for 1 right now supporting democrats. >> it's a real problem for republicans because so often, people's political views when they're 18, 19, 20, 21 stay with them for a very long time. so you take that, combine it with demographic changes in this country, and donald trump has really put the republican party in a difficult position moving forward. want to thank all of you for being with us. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is monday, october 26th. let's get smarter. with just eight days to go before the presidential election, we're looking at record-breaking numbers on multiple fronts. we're seeing it in early voting where at least 55 million americans have already cast ballots. and we're also seeing it with

coronavirus. where we recorded more new cases in the past week than at any point during this pandemic. the response from the two candidates could not be more different. former vp joe biden says the virus is the number one domestic issue for this country while the president keeps saying we're rounding the corner and that this pandemic is almost over. that message is obviously false. it's undercut by the nearly half million new cases we have seen in the last week as well as his own chief of staff mark meadows who said this just yesterday. >> we are not going to control the pandemic. we are going to control the fact that we get vaccines.