but in these protests, usually the kind of -- you'll see property damage, starbucks will get broken into, they'll graffiti. but people along the way aren't getting assaulted. that's not really what these groups do. what these groups do. >> it's just an indicator of how tense the country is, because when you look at that protest in portland, you also have the protest outside of the white house, you have small protests taking place now in michigan as well as in arizona, so it just gives you a sense of how on edge the country is. sergio olmos, thank you so much for staying up late. appreciate your time this evening. >> thank you. it is 4:00 a.m. in the east, 1:00 a.m. out west. you're watching msnbc's continuing coverage of the 2020 election. i'm ayman mohyeldin. >> and i'm katy tur. we have seen results slowly trickle in from across the country tonight. let us take a look at the map as it stands now. there are six states that have yet to be called, and here's where those races stand. michigan right now has been

called for joe biden. joe biden is the winner of michigan, nbc news is projecting, and its 16 electoral votes. in the state of pennsylvania, it is still too close to call. there is a 164,414-vote difference, but there are some major counties that are still sending in their ballot tallies, so that could potentially change dramatically. north carolina, too close to call. donald trump, though, is doing a little bit better than joe biden so far in north carolina. the trump campaign feels very bullish on that state. arizona, too early to call. 86% of the vote in so far in arizona. and those numbers are changing. joe biden holding onto a lead. donald trump hoping to overtake him. georgia, too close to call. there is a 23,000-vote difference. and it's the opposite of arizona

right now. joe biden is building momentum with the votes, and he is hoping to overtake donald trump. there is a lot going. >> i was going to say, there's a lot going on, and i'm curious to get your thoughts on this quickly, katy. i am surprised by how surprised everyone is that this is actually going as we planned, which, when i say "as we planned," meaning like we had been in the run-up to this saying it's not going to be an election night, it's going to be an election season, expect results two, three days, maybe weeks afterwards. we had been warned that the president was going to try and preemptively declare himself the winner. we were expecting that there was definitely going to be a certain degree of tension that we're seeing now manifest itself with protests outside various locations, both in michigan and in arizona. so, i'm a little surprised by how everyone is so surprised that this is going as everyone had been anticipating. there was this kind of wishful thinking, or perhaps even this anticipation that this could be a quick night, that you would have results in a key few states, this thing would be all

over. but the reality is, as it sunk in, even us knowing that the plan was for the biden campaign was to really shore up that blue wall of pennsylvania, michigan, and wisconsin, it is coming down to those three states. again, not surprising. >> you know, it's like we've all been subsiding or sub cysting off of fast-food hamburgers. then you say, we're going to make you a gourmet burger. it's going to take you a little bit longer. it's fine. it's going to take a little bit longer, you're going to like it, you're going to appreciate it. and suddenly it's like, where's my burger? i need it right now. >> are you hungry? >> i am a little hungry. i just don't want domino's pizza. we're so prime to know the results of the election on election night -- >> we're conditioned to it. it's in our dna. >> at least in the last 20 years. obviously, we didn't know in the 2000 election for quite some time, but again, we've prepared everybody for this, and so, it is going to take some time. it's going totake a couple days.

we are going to get the results of the election. just everybody breathe, eat a hamburger, and just wait. >> let's talk about all of this with our panel and bring them in now. staying up late for us, danielle moody mills. i'm not sure if you woke up early or stayed up late. either way, glad you're joining us. danielle moody, sorry, i apologize. she is the host of the podcast woke and co-host of the podcast "democracy-ish," susan del percio, senior adviser to the lincoln project and republican strategist and msnbc senior politics editor beth fouhy. thanks to all of you. beth, let's talk a little bit about the political lay of the land in terms of the race as it stands at this hour, because we've been talking a lot about how we're going back to what originally was the objective of the biden campaign and a lot of democrats who said the best path forward for joe biden to the white house was to really just rebuild that blue wall that was shattered in 2016. and yet, here we are, as this narrows down -- nevada up in the air, arizona up in the air. it does look like pennsylvania

is leaning or trending towards biden at this hour, rebuilding or re-establishing that blue wall. >> yeah. i was listening to you and katy talking about sort of what we've been told to expect and the fact that it's actually happening just as we had been planning, and yet, everybody's so on edge and so pins and needles. let me tell you as a sort of battlestar denson of the 2000 race where it came down to the vote in florida. it was very different back then because the margins were so much smaller. georgoo they only won by few votes, so you had a press for a recount and counties looking at hanging chads and all that stuff. that's not what we're seeing here, ayman. we have a consistent lead by joe biden in these states where we've declared him the winner, certainly as big as donald trump's margin in 2016 and in the case, for example, of michigan, biden's margin is significantly larger than what trump won by in 2016. so, there is a consistency here,

biden consistently ahead in the states we've called, certainly in the states we're waiting on -- nevada, arizona, even georgia, even pennsylvania. so, the trend is still clear. i guess what everybody wanted was everything to be much more obvious and distinct. one of them overwhelmingly won, or clearly, there was a mandate for that person to win. it's just so narrow in so many states, and that, i think, was the piece that we didn't anticipate, that it would come down to quite this margin of vote between the two of them. but as katy said, you know, eat your hamburger and we'll get there soon. >> susan, we've been talking a lot about how donald trump wasn't repudiated. trumpism is alive and democrats should do some soul searching about who they appeal to. but at the same time, joe biden has a real chance in arizona, in georgia. he had a chance for a little while in texas. he's breaking down what were formally republican strongholds. so, i guess the question is also

appliable to the republican -- applicable to the republican party. what is their future as we get into the 2024, 2028, 2032 elections? who is the republican party? >> that's a really good question. i think what you have to look at, what was so surprising about this election, i think, to a lot of republicans who did not support donald trump was that trump's turnout was so high that it did not repudiate trumpism, and that's where we find ourselves a couple of days later, saying, huh, i thought we were fighting get fight. i'm one of them. i thought i was fighting the good fight and that we had republicans coming on board, or at least, you know, independents who are right-leaning. and what we're seeing is, this is still the party of trump. now, my question is, can it exist if trump is not there?

and will there be some return to normal? but right now i don't see it. i think the party's very fractured, and this did nothing to unite it. but i do now -- i used to say, i was the real republican and that this is just a crazy time. but right now, those people -- the trumpers have the party, and i'm the outsider. >> danielle, you're one of my favorite accounts to follow on social media, all platforms, because i get a sense of how anxious you are generally. you're very emotional and you certainly show -- >> it's authentic. >> very authentic with your emotions. and i'm curious to get your read on where things stand this hour. first of all, give us an update on your anxiety level. where is it right now? >> well, i took a nap, so i feel super refreshed. >> i was going say, you're doing much better than us. >> yes. i feel super refreshed, and i'm not ready to eat domino's pizza. i will wait for my gourmet -- i

will wait for my gourmet plate. >> ali velshi over here is not really happy about that. >> them's fighting words. >> well, ali, you've been up for hours. >> i've been up for -- i will eat anything, man. i will eat my nose at this point. >> all right. >> wait, so, danielle -- yeah, go ahead, go ahead. >> i was going to say, my anxiety. i wished for the fact that america was going to be better, right, that we were going to come out and say racism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny is not who we are. but the fact that, you know, close -- like 70 million americans voted for that, that are standing by that, that this isn't just -- this isn't just the party of trump, this is the party of racism and bigotry, and they want to hold on to power, regardless of anything. and so, for me, you know, as a black woman, i woke up and was -- you know, i was a hopeful

for a landslide, not because i didn't want every single vote to be counted, but because i wanted america to say, no, we're better than this. this is not who we are. we've evolved past this place. but that's not the case. so you know, we will wait and we will count all of the votes. but it's still incredibly depressing and disgraceful that 70 million people are okay with who trump has shown himself to be over the past four years. >> all right. i'm going to ask our panel, danielle, susan, and beth to stick around for us because we have a lot more to talk about. i do want to cross over to ali velshi quickly. bring us up to speed on the numbers, the big board, the electoral map. we've been talking about the various paths, but you have now done the one thing we certainly did not want you to do, which is you put up on the big board the electoral tie -- >> tie. >> because that's going to make all of our heads explode at 4:00

a.m. >> why have you done this, ali? >> i should tell you, it wasn't a high probability, but you know what, there wasn't a high probability that 2020 would turn out the way it did. right now we have joe biden with 253 electoral college votes and donald trump with 214 with a number of states not there, but i was showing you the paths to victory. there are eight for joe biden, eight combinations by which he gets to 270, three by which donald trump gets to 270, all of which involve pennsylvania, and one possibility of a tie. this is what your tie looks like. nevada and arizona, which at the moment are leading biden, go to donald trump. alaska, which we, you know, we can anticipate from history will go to donald trump. north carolina, which we will not hear about until november 11th or 12th now, goes to donald trump. georgia goes to joe biden, and pennsylvania goes to donald trump. if that were to happen, you would end up with a 269-269 tie. you need 270 in order to do this, and then that goes to

congress. i won't spend your time tonight describing what that process is, because it's not likely to happen. but you can see it here. this is how it actually would happen, if it did happen. and i will say, having enjoyed that conversation, and i do follow danielle moody on twitter because everything she tags says "wokeaf," which is kind of fun, because on cable tv, we can't straight up swear, so that's kind of cool. but more importantly than that, i think -- i disagree with you, katy. and you are such dear friends that i can do this. there is zero reason to wait in a two-hour line, let alone a ten-hour line to vote. there is zero reason not to have had the results on election night. and for all people tweeting "take a breath," you don't need to take a breath. it's 2020. i'm not going to make the domino's pizza analogy again, but i come from canada where it's 37 million people and we always get results election night and you vote by hand and nobody waits even a half hour in a line. so when they say it's only 37 million people. how can you do that in america?

anything you can do with 37 million people, you can do better with ten times the number of people. so, there is zero reason for you and ayman and katy and danielle and i to be on tv right now. we should all be in bed knowing who the next president of the united states is. this system is broken, and everybody needs to figure that out. >> well, hold on, hold on. i am not defending this system at all. i am just saying here's the reality of where we are right now, and we need to take a breath. i think it is completely broken. i think we should know on election night. i think it should be easy for every single person in this country to vote. i don't think there should be road blocks for people to vote, and we have those here. i think everybody should participate in this democracy, and so many americans don't participate because it is too hard for them or because they feel like they don't really have a stake. that is extremely depressing. >> all of that's wrong, yeah, yeah. >> i also think we have a real problem with campaign finance that we need to address. >> also true. >> we have a real problem with gerrymandering that we need to

address. there are some fundamental issues with this -- >> all solvable and none of which should be partisan. >> i totally agree. we are completely on the same page. >> the boss said try to make a fight. i tried to make a fight for you. >> ali velshi, you woke me up. i appreciate it. we were talking about a tie a second ago, and i know earlier we promised we would tell you how a tie is broken in the house of representatives. ali, do you want to help me out with this? so, if there's a 269-269 tie -- god forbid -- in the electoral college, it goes to the house of representatives. >> yes, and -- >> and you might say, okay, well, the democrats have the majority in the house of representatives. that means that joe biden would be president. no. no, no, no. it's actually the delegations for each state. and there are more republican-majority delegations in the states across the country. >> correct. >> so, the republicans would end up having an advantage. so, a tie ultimately would

likely go to vice president biden -- >> that's correct -- >> i'm sorry, would go to donald trump. >> yet another thing that is more complicated than it needs to be, but that is exactly right. which is why, if you get a tie, if you're a biden supporter, that is not actually a good situation. again -- >> let us hope that it's only an episode of -- >> the likelihood is low, but some people on social media were asking about it, so i thought i would draw the picture of what it looks like. >> let us again hope it's only an episode of "veep," that we don't experience it in real life. >> nice to see you two. >> ali velshi, don't go far. we have to talk to you again in a couple minutes and really nail down this domino's pizza stuff. anyway, donald trump wants the votes to stop being counted in some states, while in others, he wants them to be counted again. we're going to explain how a possible recount could work in wisconsin.

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after a nail-biting race, joe biden was declared the aapparently winner in wisconsin

earlier wednesday. now the trump campaign is saying they want a recount. here to discuss is molly beck, a reporter for "the milwaukee journal sentinel." molly, thanks so much. so, the trump campaign does have the right to request a recount. they're going to be under 1%. but earlier, i guess, yesterday now, scott walker tweeted or was talking about how it's just really hard to overcome a 20,000-vote deficit that the trump campaign is currently facing. >> yeah, that's right. there have been -- wisconsin is known for its very close statewide races, like the presidential race turned out here. but when recounts have happened in those situations, the number of ballots that moved one way or the other have been in the couple hundreds. there haven't been many situations where there even have been 1,000 votes, but there certainly hasn't been a 20,000-vote change after a

recount. >> so, how's it going to work when he's requested a recount? when does that start and how long does it take? >> so, once he requests a recount, he has to do that after the canvas has been done and everything's been certified, and then that will -- that will take some time, if he does request the recount. the last couple times this has happened, it's taken, you know, a few days or a week or so, because everybody has to recalculate all of their ballots, if he does a statewide recount. he can also request a recount of just one county or a couple counties, but it sounds like they're talking about a statewide recount. >> molly, can you give us a sense of how the turnout has been in the state of wisconsin, you know, for joe biden, as well as for donald trump? did it go according to what was anticipated by both campaigns? how were the early exit polls shaping out? >> i mean, turnout was pretty

high in wisconsin. it's usually pretty high in wisconsin. the national polling turned out not to be very useful in predicting how this race would turn out. we saw, you know, polling that showed a 17-point lead for joe biden and a 10-point lead, an 11-point lead, and our statewide polling had joe biden's lead at about five points. then as you see, the way it turned out is the way statewide rices specifically turn out, and it's very close. the state is very divided, very evenly divided. you know, the last governors race was that close. as you know, the 2016 race turned out that close. so, you know, the predictions ahead of the election were not hard to believe -- >> i think this country has to do some soul-searching about the issue of polling after this election, showing what happened

in 2016 and now 2020. i've been very impressed by one aspect of how transparent the wisconsin tabulation process has been. i've heard your secretary of state give interviews and briefings, and in doing so, talk about how much confidence the people of wisconsin should have in this process. the attempt to get a recount, probably not likely to change the reality. i'm not sure what the biden -- i'm sorry, what the trump campaign is hoping to get out of it. >> you tell me. i mean, i think what they want to do is delay the process and muddy the waters. i think they're buying some time. this recount will take some time. i'm curious, though, molly, the fault lines. along the lines of the question that you were just asking, in terms of expectations, what are the fault lines between voters in wisconsin right now, the ones who voted for donald trump and the ones who voted for joe biden? >> yeah, i mean, i think, you know, donald trump's supporters, they are very, very supportive

of him and loyal of him. we haven't been able to get out there really in the last couple days to talk to them, to see how they feel about this idea of a recount, whether they think that the election was not properly executed, you know? i know that the comments from former governor scott walker -- he's a big trump supporter and he's also -- i believe he's the chairman of the state campaign for president trump. so, for him to say that the recount, you know, that would be a high hurdle, to actually change the outcome of the race in wisconsin. i mean, that's -- you know, he's been around. he knows how the election process works. and there hasn't been, you know, a lot of irregularities that the trump campaign is alleging, and certainly, the state election officials have said that there haven't been. >> i apologize for the delay, but i was going to ask you quickly, because of everything that has happened in wisconsin this year with the protests and the demonstrations around black lives matter, and obviously,

what has happened since then, i'm curious to get your thoughts this evening or this morning, rather. what's the mood like? you know, as we go into this recount phase and we're seeing what's happening in arizona and we're seeing this kind of percolating tension in some areas across the country -- portland has some protests, michigan has some, washington, d.c. wisconsin was the epicenter for the protests in this country, given what happened with george floyd. what is the mood like on the streets there right now? >> well, you know, we haven't seen the kind of protests that we saw in the state after george floyd died and after the shooting of jacob blake in kenosha. there were -- this summer was just full of protests like that and unrest, and there were riots in some cities. and we haven't seen that. and we really haven't seen those large protests since the shooting of jacob blake and the subsequent fatal shootings of the protesters there.

i don't know if that kind of spooked people, you know, to be in situations like that, but we just -- just happenstance, but we haven't seen that right now and we haven't seen it -- >> thank you for correcting me on that george floyd. i apologize. that was obviously in minnesota. jacob blake was in wisconsin. so, thanks for your time, molly beck. i appreciate it. and while we have been focusing on people around the country and how they're reacting to the 2020 election, it's also important that the world has been watching as well. headlines from international publications clearly show a lot of folks around the globe are also caught up in the drama of this political moment. joining us now from paris -- oh, god, paris, france -- is nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley. matt bradley has been torturing me on instagram, and he's torturing me right now with that iconic paris background. matt, i know paris is dealing with some very serious stuff with the coronavirus and there are lockdowns across europe

because the virus is surging. it's also surging here, by the way -- 1,000 cases just yesterday. as the world watches this election, what is the reaction to the turmoil here in the united states? 100,000 cases. excuse me. >> reporter: well, the first reaction is everybody -- yes. well, the first reaction here in europe and in france is that everybody's completely enraptured by this election. they are, like the rest of us, following this moment to moment, very closely. and of course, they're all taking a crash course in the electoral college, which we don't see here. and they're having to learn quite a bit, maybe more than they would like, about the american system of electing people. the problem here on the official level is that no one's saying anything. they are trying to hedge their bets. they're waiting to see who will be elected, and that's just smart diplomacy. you don't weigh in and say you like donald trump or joe biden more. but of course, it's not going to surprise you guys that here in

europe, at least, joe biden is far, far more popular than donald trump. and there were some proud headlines and some statements that came out after joe biden made clear that he was going to be rejoining the paris climate accords, if he becomes president. so, that's something that a lot of people here were very pleased with. but for the most part, you're hearing it -- i was watching french television last night -- i was hearing a lot of disbelief that the president was still getting so much support, despite the tragedy, as you mentioned, of covid in the united states. i heard one french commentator saying that, you know, this is just a reality. in france, we prize our health care system, we prize our health. it's a major priority for us. in america, culturally, it's just different. they don't think of health care that way. and that was a sobering thing to hear. they just don't understand. and it's very difficult to explain why a population that suffered so much from covid would be electing in that same leader, because here, there's a lot of public anger about the

way that covid has been managed, and they want politicians to pay. >> matt, i was going to say, if you want to tell them, you can tell them there are a lot of people in this country as well who are wondering why it's become so politicized to do things as basic as simply wearing a mask and take this seriously. >> reporter: right. >> let me just talk -- you alluded to the paris climate accords. what else would change fundamentally between these two candidates, vis-a-vis europe? when you give us the pulse of what europe is anticipating under a biden campaign versus what they got with a trump presidency, lay out the land for us a little bit on some of these key issues, besides just the paris climate accord. >> reporter: okay, so, that's a very good question, ayman, and the answer is, european leaders aren't expecting much to change, because the erosion of american power and influence in europe actually predates donald trump, and that's something that it's very easy to say that, oh, america squandered its relationship, its close

relationship with its allies in europe because of donald trump's posture towards nato, towards climate accords, towards the european union. in reality, the way europeans see it, is that it will never go back to the pre-trump days, because this was all part of the same process that had been going on under george w. bush, under obama, and then under trump. there is no longer the same level of cooperation and solidarity between europe and the united states that there was a couple of decades ago. and we've seen that in answers to various surveys that have been done here in europe. there simply isn't that level of trust, so it's not all going to be laid on donald trump's doorstep. however, we have heard from european leaders that they are really hoping to go back to working with the united states in a close -- on a close level. whether biden is going to deliver some sort of really intimate, deep relationship that's cross-atlantic, nobody here is really expecting that to happen. they are hoping that there's more cooperation, more discussion, but they're not really expecting it to wind back the clock to the days before the

bush administration. guys? >> and i was going to say, i'm pretty sure they probably expect a certain degree of respect and cordiality with a new american president, because as we've seen in some of these nato summits and other high-level summits, there have been these awkward moments -- >> donald trump pushing away the leader of montenegro, that one? >> just one of them, but there are a few other moments as well. even just the way he talks about some of the world leaders and our closest allies. >> reporter: they're expecting civility. >> exactly. all right. matt bradley, live for us -- >> reporter: and that's symbolic. >> yeah, absolutely, matt. thank you very much. matt bradley live in paris this morning. >> can we just take tae a moment? and i know ali velshi's going to want to jump on this. talk about health care. you lived in london. i've lived in london. ali velshi's canadian, places where there is a national health care system. you get checkups in london. you walk in, you walk out. i was in australia covering the disappearance of mh-370, remember that, when it was the biggest story in the world. i really messed up my shoulder

in a fall and i had to go get x-rays in the er. i walked in there, bloody and messed up. they gave me x-rays. they gave me pain medication. i was in the er for, i don't know, six, seven hours. and i walked out without a bill. without a bill. and i was a tourist. i walked out without having to pay a single thing in australia. and if i had done that here, i would be paying thousands upon thousands of dollars. if i had, quote/unquote, good health insurance, i would still be paying hundreds of dollars. this idea that people love their health insurance is just crazy. they tolerate their health insurance. nobody loves their health insurance in this country. it is just a way to find a way -- they exist to find a way not to pay for your health services. ali velshi, i know you want to jump in on this. >> i really do. a few things. first of all, look at your paycheck. anybody who gets their employee-sponsored health care, some of it's subsidized by your employer, but it's generally one of the biggest nuts on your

paycheck. two, my dad got a stent in toronto. he paid more than you did because he had to pay for the parking. that's the one thing he learned is don't drive to the hospital because the one thing health care doesn't cover is the cost of parking. it covers everything else. canada and the united kingdom both have single-payer health care systems. guess what, life expectancy is longer, outcomes on most things, except cancer treatment, is better in all developed countries than in the united states. and here's the rub. in many of these countries, the system was either established by or continued by conservative governments, because the return on investment is greater. in america, we spend almost three times as much as what they do in developed countries for health care. so, the idea that this is socialist and radical, which, by the way, i encountered when i was out there on my tour across america -- the idea that you're paying collectively for insurance is not socialist. socialism is government-controlled production. in canada, the government doesn't control health care.

it just pays for your health care coverage. it's something we should be coming around to. and exit polling indicated that a lot of americans actually still believe that. one of the interesting things i don't have on this map -- florida went for donald trump, voted conservative. they voted a $15 minimum wage into florida. this happened last election, too. four states that voted republican also voted for increases in minimum wage. these are just basic living things. there's actually nothing socialist about paying people $15 an hour. that's $31,000 a year. so for everybody i talk to who thought that was socialism and thievery, 31k. >> so, the closest thing we have here to everyone having insurance is the affordable care act -- >> or medicaid. >> or medicaid. >> yeah. >> and that is -- affordable care act is currently going to be in front of the supreme court -- >> go away. >> the government, the president's government, the doj is arguing to tear down that law with the addition of amy coney barrett to the supreme court. there is an expectation, especially among democrats, that that law is going to get

overturned. and what's really interesting about this is that if the democrats had been able to retake the senate, and if they had the house as well -- and they do have the house, and they do get the presidency, it's something that they could probably address with a new health care law. >> do a new one, yeah. >> but because the democrats were not able to regain control of the senate -- and obviously, things are still out there, but it looks like they're not going to be able to regain control of the senate -- that's going to have real consequences for millions of americans and their health care in the coming weeks. and i know we have jake sherman on in a little while and he can talk to us more about the consequences of what a republican senate and a democratic presidency looks like, if that comes to pass. but these are real-life things that are going to be affecting millions of americans very soon. >> let me just -- i want to actually, if i can, ali, and katy as well, since we just had matt with us. one of the things that's not gotten enough attention in this election cycle is foreign policy. i know all of us have lived overseas at some point in our lives.

ali, are you surprised by the fact that foreign policy does not feature heavily in the debate for a country that is so heavily involved overseas, in addition to issues like health care that most americans just don't care generally? >> well, i think one of the things that there were hopes for with another president -- it doesn't mean a democratic president -- but most other presidents, republican or democrat, took a stronger role in global leadership, right? we started this campaign -- we started this administration, the trump administration, pulling out of the climate accord and denigrating nato. and you know, the thing about nato that's kind of interesting is this article five, which said that attack on a member nation is an attack on all nations. you know, ayman, the only time that article five was ever invoked in nato was the attacks of 9/11, when other countries came to america's defense. so, the bottom line is i am surprised. second -- [ inaudible ] than first-term presidents, but if that doesn't happen for

donald trump, you will certainly see a greater focus on joe biden because it is an area of interest. >> part of the reason it's not featured heavily in the election is because of all the drama at home, especially with the coronavirus and all of the drama that president trump has created here domestically, with the racial unrest, et cetera. that's one of the reasons why it hasn't featured as heavily. but you're right, it is an important -- >> our bandwidth, yeah. >> it's an important issue that americans, you know, we should be paying closer attention to, when you are electing the leader of this country and what is, you know, ostensibly the leader of the free world. ali velshi -- >> yeah. >> my friend. you've done an amazing job tonight. >> ali, as always, thank you. >> my pleasure. >> go get some rest. >> get some dominos. >> or some domino's. despite all the unrest, balance in power won't look that different, but will there be changes at the top for democrats? plus, could we finally get that covid relief bill that everyone has been talking about for some time? jake sherman will give us an answer on that. >> our friend. an will give us an answer on that

>> our friend.

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let's bring in jake sherman, senior writer at politico and an msnbc political contributor. jake, i don't think we're ever going to get out of this maze, but i promised ayman that we would lay low with the fish references. i don't know if you caught this. we were just having a discussion about the senate, especially on the subject of health care, because the aca is up in front of the supreme court and the chances for it remaining don't look so good. republicans, it looks like, will be able to maintain their majority. what does that mean for health care, if joe biden is able to win the presidency? >> well, good morning, guys, my two favorite msnbc anchors, but i tell everybody that. listen, here's the thing. we don't know what the takeaway of this election is going to be. i'm trying to figure that out right now as i write "playbook." that's the ultimate question

after an election -- what do the two parties take from the results? and i mean, listen, mitch mcconnell pulled an inside straight, right? he's keeping the majority. no one gave him a chance. he, himself, said it was a 50/50 proposition. so, and by the way, the house of representatives is an extremely tight margin. i heard you even say that nancy pelosi kept the house, but she kept it by the narrowest of margins. i don't believe -- and i don't know yet -- but the margins that she kept the house by, what could she get through on a topic like the aca? i mean, republicans are going to be really close and are going to -- i mean, that margin is going to probably shrink a little bit. it might even stay there, but even so, at that level, 226, that means she has eight seats to lose, eight votes to lose on any single vote, if republicans stay together. that is very, very narrow, having covered tens of thousands of house votes. so, could they bolster the aca? sure. will it be very difficult to get

through the senate? absolutely. the filibuster is going to be in place. the 60-vote threshold is going to be in place, because republicans have kept the senate. so, i would expect -- i have two views here. and this is probably hopping ahead to your next question. but number one -- is this gridlock that we're going to see -- a democratic president most likely, republican senate, democratic house -- is that going to produce middle-of-the-road results or is it going to produce gridlock? and i don't think we know the answer to either of those things yet. >> so you actually did take that question right out of my mouth, because it was going to be, what can possibly get done? but let me then pivot to something you brought up, which is not necessarily about what they can get done, but whether or not you can anticipate, given the fact that speaker pelosi has such a narrow margin of control, that other voices within the democratic caucus will emerge and call for new leadership. do you get any sense from your reporting or speaking to anyone that, perhaps, given the way the democrats performed in the senate and in the house, there is a call for some change in the

leadership of the democratic caucus, on both chambers of the congress? >> i mean, listen, if they were honest and held their leaders to some sort of responsibility and standard, there should be. but nancy pelosi has been the leader since 2002, and she has an iron grip on her caucus. she's extraordinarily strong. and she manages to squirm her way out of any situation. i'm not saying this is her fault. i am saying that her leadership team told us they were going to win between 5 and 20 seats, and they didn't. so, i didn't set those standards. they did. there is discontent. there are a lot of democrats who are saying we need to hold somebody responsible. now, you need somebody to beat somebody else. you need somebody to step up and say, i am going to run, and i have the votes to beat nancy pelosi in several rounds of voting. then when it gets to the floor, i'm going to be able to get 218 democrats to vote for me for

speaker. i just don't see that at this point. i really don't. and i think, frankly, chuck schumer -- this is the third straight cycle senate democrats have underperformed in elections. they did not get the majority back. think about it this way -- and i've talked to you on air so much about this topic, but the supreme court, right? mitch mcconnell won his election. he's the boogieman for democrats on the supreme court supreme court. lindsey graham, judiciary chairman, won the election. susan collins has voted for every supreme court justice in her history on capitol hill, besides this last one, besides amy coney barrett. she won re-election. john cornyn won re-election. so, i mean, every single person who democrats dumped money into to beat one won. that's amazing! that's an amazing political feat. so you know, should they hold somebody responsible? yes. if it was a business and you missed every single mark that you laid out, you would be held responsible, but it's not a

business. it's politics. and they're going to find a way to survive. >> i wonder what the winning message was, for republicans, whether it was the supreme court and this idea that democrats were going to, as republicans were saying, pack the court. democrats call it court reform. jake, though, i want to ask you this, if joe biden -- and we're still in if, if, if, because we don't know yet -- but if joe biden is able to retake the white house and if he is able to work with republicans, what is the first piece of major legislation that they take up? >> infrastructure, i would imagine. i mean, mitch mcconnell said he wants to do a covid relief bill, which i've spent a lot of time talking to you both about. i don't -- he said he wants to do it this year. i think that's really difficult. trump is going to be all worked up on all of these election cases and election lawsuits. but listen, i think some sort of big covid relief bill, some sort of infrastructure bill. and the question is, do republicans work with him? remember, mitch mcconnell and joe biden have a very, very long history of working together in the obama administration,

cutting deals. they were the nucleus of every single -- or of several major, major fiscal deals during the obama administration. there is no question they could work together if both of them want to and have the political capacity to do so. so, again, what will that takeaway be? i think to be honest with you, mitch mcconnell's going to find that he needs to cooperate on some of these items. he has in the past. and i just think that he and joe biden -- there is the making, should they want to, there is the making of a relationship that could be fruitful for legislating. >> jake, i know you say you love every anchor on this network, but i am the only anchor on this network who features in a photo which is right over your left-hand shoulder, which is you and me, tran astacio -- trey anastasio -- >> and i don't want to leave irene out. she's fast asleep.

>> it was really about you and me. jake sherman, thank you so much for joining us today. we appreciate it. >> thanks, guys. >> glad we could get you before you put "playbook" out. >> thanks. >> back with us are danielle moody and susan del percio and beth fouhy. we're talking about the senate and what could start happening, the idea that an infrastructure bill is where a new administration and a remaining republican senate could start, is what jake sherman was talking about. it's also what we maybe expected donald trump to do when he first got into office as an olive branch and a way for him to say, we can work together. he didn't do it. likelihood that infrastructure gets taken up, beth? what do you think? >> it would be a great place for them to start. i mean, it's not partisan. we are in a situation where something like 26 million americans have been filing for unemployment. to provide a congressionally authorized bunch of money to rebuild our roads and our bridges, which we all

desperately need, and to put a lot of people to work who right now have been home with no money and no relief from this congress since july, would be, you would think, a win-win. like jake was saying, biden and mitch mcconnell do have a relationship. they've worked together in the past. this is clearly something they could pull together a bipartisan consensus around, if they want to. it seemed that in the past, mitch mcconnell just kind of let everything linger on his desk because just sort of, you know, to own the libs, to prove his power, to just block anything nancy pelosi wanted to do. but maybe we're in a little bit more harmonious time right now, and the realization that, you know, six, seven, eight months into this pandemic, people are still really hurting, and an infrastructure bill would help, you know, fix a lot of the nation's ills, could hopefully bring both sides together. >> danielle, are we in a more harmonious time, when you look at somebody like mitch mcconnell, what he has been responsible for in blocking the nomination of merrick garland, saying or vowing to make president obama at the time a

one-term president, and everything that has happened subsequently since then? he is now most likely returning to the same position, same dynamic, potentially, with joe biden in the white house. are we, in short in a more harmonious situation to see something happen with mitch mcconnell in the senate? >> no. mitch mcconnell is a man that refers to himself as the grim reaper. like, i can't imagine somebody who has allowed 400 pieces of legislation to just sit on his desk for the last couple of years, that came from the house of representatives. and i always want to caution us when we keep saying that, oh, if the parties want to work together. mitch mcconnell is the one that does not want to work for america. and so, it's always shocking to me when we look at the numbers and see that he got 58% of the vote in kentucky. it's like, what are people seeing here? mitch mcconnell is the reason why you don't have a coronavirus relief package. mitch mcconnell is the reason why we have 300 seats on the federal bench that were filled by donald trump because he held

them up in the obama administration. one man should not have that much power, especially one that is not called president of the united states. and so, it's outrageous to me that we are in this position about whether or not people are going to work together when it's one man, and it's been one man only, that does not want to work for this country. >> susan, your thoughts? >> well, i think the one major difference now, though, for mitch mcconnell, is he actually has someone in the white house who you could trust when you're making a deal, that they're not going to be like lucy with the football every time you come up with some negotiations, you hear a commentator -- president trump would hear a commentator not like something and he'd just pull away from it. so, i think that there is room for a real working relationship, and they do need to move forward and get some things done for this country. i think mcconnell's very much aware of that. and infrastructure makes sense because it could also help balance out a covid relief bill, so financially, you could say

we're not going to spend so much time on the relief package, but we're going to put it into infrastructure. so, that could be part of a broader negotiation. >> do any of you have any hope for a bolstered obamacare, a bolstered aca or a new health care bill entirely, since the aca is in dire jeopardy in a matter of weeks? beth, you start. >> well, if the aca goes down in the supreme court, and suddenly, something like 20 million americans who had health insurance have it taken away, there's going to be tremendous pressure on politicians of both parties to figure something out. you simply can't do that to the people who live in your state, to your constituents who are facing a pandemic! that's the crazy thing. these are people who need health care more than ever right now. and to revert to the period that we were in before obamacare, where people don't have insurance or their pre-existing conditions preclude them from getting insurance is not tenable during a pandemic. so there will be a lot more pressure on both parties to

figure something out. it's going to be ugly, but they're going to have to do it. >> susan, to pick up on that point, when you look at the number of people who voted for president trump, a man who promised health care for four years -- he did not deliver -- it's been longer, if you include what the republicans have been doing since obamacare back in 2010. he's promised pre-existing conditions. he's in court fighting right now to get that tossed out. and yet, the 70 million or so people -- 65 million or so people who voted for -- 68 million, to be exact -- who voted for him, that did not seem to bother them. so, the question then becomes about the issue of health care, whether or not it was a priority for those who supported president trump. >> well, i think that this election is based on a whole lot of things, least of all the issues, obviously, because if it was just base ed on the issues, and you saw how president trump handled the covid-19 crisis, he would be not even close in the situation that he's in. but i think what you're going to see now is the staffs of the senate and the house working to

what originally, even joe biden said -- we had to improve on obamacare. the fact is, is that the insurance companies, everyone out there cannot dissemble what they have taken years to put together. there will be a way to -- for republicans to claim victory in saying that they got rid of it and have a new thing, and for democrats to say we kept it and we just basically improved it. >> danielle, you have 20 seconds, because we're up against a hard out. >> we've been waiting for ten years for the republicans' plan. ten years. they have yet to come up with one. so, we think magic's going to happen this time around? i don't think so. >> dozens of dozens of times that they tried to overturn obamacare without a plan in place. danielle, susan, beth -- >> it's coming. it's coming. >> two weeks, right? >> it's coming. we'll have it before the election. actually, the election happened. sorry, guys. >> the election of what, 2054? >> yeah, exactly. >> danielle, susan, beth, thank you so much.

thanks for sticking around with us this morning. that is all for us right now. i'm going to be back, ayman, at 2:00 p.m. eastern. >> and i'll be right after you at 3:00 p.m. eastern. up next, "way too early with kasie hunt." she's going to pick up our coverage right here on msnbc. these folks, they don't have time to go to the post office

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it's clear that we're winning enough states to reach 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency. when the count is finished, we believe we will be the winners. >> joe biden sounding optimistic two days after election day, and the election still undecided. biden currently leads, 253 electoral votes to donald trump's 214. biden added to his lead yesterday after winning michigan's6