different demographics and that has been, you know, sort of the winning coalition. >> thank you for joining us. sorry to hype everyone up and then put everything back on ice for a moment. we are for a moment. we are still watching the numbers in philadelphia. we do expect to get an update at some point. >> in the meantime, let's start again at the top of the hour, 4:00 a.m. in the east, 1:00 out west. you are watching msnbc's continuing coverage of the 2020 election. i'm ayman mohyeldin. >> and i'm katy tur. let's look at the state of the race. this hour, much like the last 24 hours, we are still awaiting final results from five key battleground states -- arizona, nevada, north carolina, georgia, and of course, pennsylvania. you're looking live at the philadelphia ballot facility, still buzzing. there are still people working in there. they are continuing to count those critical votes through the

night. they deserve a round of applause. >> yeah, certainly do. we've seen a steady stream of updates from pennsylvania this evening, dramatically shrinking donald trump's lead for joe biden. a win in pennsylvania, folks, that would push him over the 270 threshold, making him president-elect. in georgia, a very close race, somehow getting even closer by the hour. joe biden is now trailing donald trump by a mere 463 votes. steve kornacki, back with us at the big board to give us an update. we had a moment there, a moment. we thought it was philadelphia. it actually turned out to be georgia that is delivering that closer call at this hour, steve. >> yeah, no, that's right. we've been getting more regular updates in these overnight hours from georgia, where, again, you just put it up there, but we can see it again. 463 votes. democrats have been trying to win a presidential election in georgia and haven't since 1992.

this is as close as they've come since then, within 463 votes of getting to the lead in georgia this late in the process. and again, they very well could in the coming few minutes, hours? there are votes outstanding, right here in particular, clayton county. i single out clayton county because there are a lot of votes still left there, relative to the total number of votes that are left. it's overwhelmingly democratic, and this is a county that is staying up all night to get its vote reported out. so, we've been getting regular updates from clayton county, sometimes in small amounts. but at this point, an update of a small amount might be enough to put joe biden into first place in georgia. now, as these ballots are counted -- and there are some other counties that have outstanding ballots -- those will be presumably reported out this morning, maybe, this afternoon, today, in the coming day here. when all the dust settles in georgia, whether it is biden who gets into the lead here, or whether it's trump who finds a

way to remain in front, it seems virtually certain the margin between the two of them will be well inside of 0.5% -- half a point. if it is, then the recount possibility is on the table. we've seen a similar situation already play out in wisconsin, where the initial balloting put joe biden ahead by 20,000 votes. that was within half a point. that rule allowed any candidate to request a recount, and the trump campaign has already exercised the right to have a recount in wisconsin. so, if biden finishes in first place here in this initial round, would the trump campaign then do the same in georgia? that's one of the possibilities here. there also are some military provisional ballots that could be coming in through today. the state wants to get those ballots, if there are any, if there are many, get those ballots counted and included in this. they aren't yet. again, we're not expecting many there, but that's part of the process, and the deadline for those is the end of today. so, it's a long way of saying,

yeah, we are watching these votes closely. there is a very good chance that joe biden is actually going to leapfrog donald trump and get into the lead here. there is a chance as well, a good chance, probably, that joe biden might finish up in the lead in georgia. but there is still going to be a process after that. so, to get to an actual declared winner in georgia may still take some time. but obviously, we are watching the return of the votes closely there. and then there's this one. this is joe biden's most immediate path to 270 electoral votes. and as you say, to becoming president-elect. this is donald trump leading by 18,229, but we have got, you know, 160,000 or so absentee ballots that are still being reported out. one place in pennsylvania is doing it at this hour. that's philadelphia. but there are outstanding absentee votes in a number of places throughout the state, including in allegheny county

where pittsburgh is. there are 35,000 of those absentee mail ballots there. and in the next few hours, they will begin processing those and getting those reported out. and again, a number of other counties as well. the constant in pennsylvania has been these mail ballots. they have been heavily in biden's favor. this is true in democratic areas. this is true in republican areas. it simply seems to be the case in pennsylvania that the mail-in voting option was one that democrats were far, far, far more likely to use than republicans. and so, every time there's been a report of these new mail ballot vote counts throughout the state, biden has been gaining ground, and there is still a lot of ground he could gain with that 160,000 that's left. so, it's been a while now since we had our last update from philadelphia. you see it. they are working there overnight. i think it's very possible the next hour or so, we'll get another update from philadelphia, and that would very likely, if past is prologue here, bring joe biden significantly closer to donald

trump. and if the trends hold here, if everything we've been seeing just continues to happen, then as these votes are counted up, biden should be able to catch trump and move significantly ahead of him in the count. that's the pace he's been on, and he's been maintaining that pace with every update we've seen. >> let us be clear why these mail-in ballots so heavily favor, at least according to now, joe biden. it's not just because they're coming from democratic strongholds in philadelphia. across the country, we saw mail-in ballots favor joe biden because the president of the united states went on the attack against mail-in balloting, telling his supporters that it wasn't trustworthy, that it was fraudulent. so donald trump's supporters went to the polls on election day. they were more likely to do that, instead of sending their ballots in by the mail, which very nicely, if you want to put it that way, set up the president to say, hey, there's fraud going on because we only

want to count what he calls the legitimate election vote on election day. that is not at all the case. the mail-in ballots were legally cast. they were done so because of a pandemic, because people shouldn't be close together, because there is a pandemic. and oh, by the way, we had another record in terms of the number of people in this country who now have come down with covid-19 in the past day, superseding what we had the day before. it's over 100,000. the death toll is rising as well. so, the reason people were mailing in their ballots is because they didn't want to come into contact with people. i just want to clear that up. i know everyone knows it, but it's worth repeating. steve, one other thing. you talk about georgia, talk about arizona and nevada. this is all icing on the cake. when you look at the trends in pennsylvania, that's really where the focus is. that's where it's going to happen, if it happens. >> yeah, i mean, look, if joe biden is going to get elected, he has the opportunity just to sort of, you know, get over the

top and hold on in pennsylvania. and the pathway to that is very clear at this point. i mean, we'll go to our road to 270 map, and you can just see, here's, again -- this happened last time i tried to do this with you. we're going to dramatically show you what happens. but it was already colored in blue. but yes, if joe biden were to win pennsylvania -- there it goes, 253 that he has now goes up to 273, if he gets that. again, for trump, he has to find a way. and again, the path here is very difficult to see, but trump's path to 270 requires him to win pennsylvania, also carolina, georgia, arizona. alaska still outstanding. trump would need pennsylvania, plus a lot more. you know, you can look at some of these other states. trump has a shot in arizona, certainly alaska, north carolina, maybe georgia, too. he's got a shot in all of them, but pennsylvania, the situation for trump is just very, very dire right now for all these reasons we've been talking about. and yeah, you could reduce it to this for biden -- get pennsylvania, he's

president-elect. and as you say, or his campaign would say, sure, we'd love to have everything else, but we don't need it. >> as the late-great chick hearn would say -- and forgive me, i'm from los angeles and i'm a laker fan -- the game's in the fringe, the door is closed, the light is off, the eggs are cold and the jell-o is jiggling. that is if joe biden wins pennsylvania. >> i love a good chick hearn reference. >> you're a sports guy. i knew you'd like it. >> i'm from massachusetts, but you know -- >> we have to hate each other, i think contractually. but it's okay. for tonight, we'll be friends. >> i'll take it. >> sports reference aside for a moment. steve, let me just ask about georgia for a moment. the senate race there. because we passed an important threshold. >> yes. >> if we talk about the narrowing of the presidential election and the numbers, i do want to talk about jon ossoff's race with david perdue. it has huge implications for potential control of the senate. that number is also trending in favor of jon ossoff. >> yeah. that's a key point there, right? so, we've been saying, all of this -- the balloting that's moving in biden's favor here in

the presidential race is moving in the democrats' favor as well in the senate race. so, this is the presidential race. now i'm going to flip and show you the current result in that perdue senate race. and this is the key number you're talking about. perdue leads, and i think pretty clearly here is going to finish ahead of ossoff, but perdue has fallen under 50%. >> wow. >> barely, but under. and anything in georgia, anything under 50% in a senate race goes to a runoff election. if perdue gets 50% plus one tonight, or whenever the counting is finished in this round, he's the winner, it's over, he's re-elected. but if he gets anything less than 50%, there is a runoff. that would be held january 5th. there's already another senate seat in georgia that has a multicandidate primary, and there's clearly going to be a runoff there. if this holds, if perdue finishes under 50%, this means there will be a second senate runoff in georgia.

there will be one for perdue's seat, trying to hang onto it, against ossoff, and there will be one for that open seat as well in georgia. they'll both be held on january 5th. and the way things are shaping up right here, those two seats on that runoff day, january 5th, about two weeks before the presidential inauguration, current balance of power in the senate has democrats on path to need those two seats -- >> both of them. >> both to get to 50 in -- >> that's going to be tough in georgia. >> if biden wins the presidency, the first political challenge for democrats is -- there's a big difference, as i think they know, between having a democratic senate and a republican senate. >> for sure. >> the first order of business politically for biden and his team might be, can they find a way to get not one, but two senate seats in georgia? because that would, at least the way the map is shaping up now, potentially get them to 50-50 in the senate and vice president kamala harris could break the hi in their favor and give them control of the senate.

>> and i just want to talk about how, putting into perspective, what a massive undertaking this is for the state of georgia. they're just getting out of this election where they have had paper mail-in ballots in record numbers, according to gabriel sterling, and now they're going to do it again in a couple of weeks. they're going to have to finish the count, certify this count on a county-by-county level. then they're going to turn around and then have to do it for two more senate races, plus a few more other races in the state races that require runoffs as well. so, it will give you a sense of the tremendous pressure a lot of these election officials are under. steve, i want to ask you quickly, if i can, about that. are we potentially going to see a scenario -- or how do you even explain the scenario, whereby if the state of georgia flips to former vice president joe biden, but the senate still remains in the control of republicans, does that mean we are going to conclude that there were split tickets, where some people voted for joe biden for president but for david perdue as the senator? >> yeah, well, again, if he does

it in the runoff, this is the wild card. we've seen this happen several times in relatively recent georgia political history. in 1992, bill clinton got elected president. bill clinton carried georgia, the last democrat to do it, when he was elected president in 1992. at the same time, on the night bill clinton carried georgia, in was a senate race that year between the democratic incumbent, weiss fowler and paul coverdale. and fowler, the incumbent, came in at 49.8% in the preliminary. not quite enough. got forced into a runoff. the runoff was held about a month after the presidential election. and the politics of georgia changed in that month, because what happened was, all of these republicans who had just lost the presidential race, and now bill clinton's coming in as president, they came to georgia and said, you need to put a check on the new president. the new president has the house of representatives. back then, they said, the new president's going to have the u.s. senate. you want to have some kind of a

check. don't give him another member of his own party. give him somebody to keep an eye on him. and coverdale, who had finished second in that preliminary round, ended up winning the runoff. and i guarantee, the message from republicans, if this senate race goes to a runoff, and if biden is the president-elect at that point, is going to be, watch out, you've got a democratic president coming in, you've got nancy pelosi and the democrats running the house. you don't want to give this party control of the senate. you want divided government. that will be the republican message. and the question is, will that scramble the politics of georgia at all? >> steve kornacki. steven, thank you so much. we're going to come back to you. don't go too far. let's go to nbc's maura barrett, who is live in pittsburgh, right by heinz field. maura, give us what you can tell us about when the vote is going to start again in other parts of the state, beyond philadelphia. >> reporter: hey, katy. my producer, matt and i were

just joking how much this feels like groundhog day. it is the middle of the night yet again, and we are still waiting on pennsylvania. as he was talking about, philadelphia still counting their vote. but if we reremind a bit to this time just a few nights ago, before the mail-in ballots started trickling in, donald trump was ahead by 600,000 votes here. and obviously, we've seen that margin shrink incredibly down to just 18,000. and so, these last mail-in ballots that are coming in from philadelphia and a few other places around the state are going to be really key. and obviously, there's been some delay in the results we've been seeing from philadelphia, as they are working like crazy, we're told, overnight. and so, i'm in allegheny county on the opposite side of the state, southwestern pennsylvania. they have about 35,000 ballots left to go. now, they finished their mail-in count overnight wednesday. these 35,000 are ones that, several thousand of them are ones that couldn't be scanned. there were some errors. there was, you know, a signature

or date issues, things that they have to review by hand, and that starts with the return board of elections at 9:00 a.m. today. they couldn't do anything with those yesterday. this is by law that they had to wait for 9:00 a.m. today. the rest of them -- now, allegheny county had contracted with a printing company to help print and mail out their ballots. and earlier last month, they accidentally sent out about 29,000 incorrect ballots to voters. they had to send out replacement ballots, and a court order mandated that easy to ballots be segregated and waited to be processed and counted, again, until today. so, that is what we're waiting for here in allegheny county. there are a few other counties -- lehigh and bucks, over on the eastern side of the state -- that also have each about 10,000 ballots to come in. so, depending on how slowly philadelphia continues to report and how quickly those other counties wake up and start counting again this morning, we could see some of those mail-in ballots like we've been seeing, trending for joe biden, come in a little later today or throughout the afternoon. and katy, i want to point out,

because we've had so much time, because we're waiting, i've been looking at the different county breakdowns, and it's just fascinating, because as i'm going to quote senator pat tuohy. he called pennsylvania a big, complicated, diverse state. and they're different from the suburbs and surrounding counties of pittsburgh. that's seen as the gateway to the midwest, an area where steel was big, agriculture is big, they're really depending on fracking, a new shale plant up in beaver county is what a lot of people are looking for, to their local county. and the surrounding counties around allegheny county added voter registration for republicans. some of them flipped to win over democrats there. and donald trump performing extremely well in those counties, almost exactly the same as what we saw in 2016. obviously, that's not the case as what we're seeing in philadelphia and those suburbs, as joe biden worked to really eat into trump's margins over there. but it's just kind of something interesting to look at as we

look at how different and diverse this state is, and when it comes to rural and urban and the different sectors that people are employed in and whether they're college educated or not. it's just something that we're going to definitely be taking a look at over the next couple of days and weeks, i'm sure, as we finally see what does happen in pennsylvania. but katy, it does seem very likely that at some point today, we will have a very clear picture of what's going on in pennsylvania. >> it seems like it is the story that is playing out in so many parts of this country, the rural areas versus the urban areas. maura barrett live for us in pittsburgh at this hour. maura, thank you so much for joining us. and joining us now is david lit l lit, former speechwriter for president obama and author of "democracy in one book or less." david, you know pennsylvania well, after working in the obama administration. you volunteered in pittsburgh on election day. what do you make of the situation that we are seeing there right now, as we wait for philadelphia to send in its latest numbers? >> well, i think right now, you

know, we're all just sort of sitting around hoping that you're going to cut me off and say we have a huge batch of new numbers for pennsylvania, and i'm hoping you cut me off and say that, too. but at the same time, i think you have to give a lot of credit to the biden campaign here. they were relentlessly focused on pennsylvania. they spent all of monday in pennsylvania. i had a chance to meet some of the organizers who were working their hearts out, who had the toughest job in politics. they were doing everything they could in a really difficult year, because they knew how important this state was going to be. and i think we're seeing that work pay off right now. so, you know, it's taking time. it's certainly taken longer than maybe some of us thought, but the fact that you had a campaign that knew exactly where they needed to target and they did the work, you know, that's what you hope for if you're in politics, and i think that's what we're getting. >> there's a lot of talk, david, about the divide between republican voters, democratic voters, or trump voters and

everybody else. is there a way for democrats to win back what had traditionally been their bloc of voters, which was working-class rural voters outside of the big city centers? is there an issue that democrats can grab back onto that will gain some traction with that bloc that seems just so disillusioned by the democratic party right now? >> katy, i think democrats have to be the party of democracy. and part of being the party of democracy is, when there is a bloc of voters that is large and votes against you, you don't try to disenfranchise them, as the republican party is doing. you do try to figure out how you can make some inroads. but you also have to be true to yourself and to your principles. and i really think the democrats can reject the false choice that says, if you're listening to people everywhere, if you're competing everywhere, that means that you're letting down your base. i don't think we have to do that

at all. i guess the short answer i would say is, there are two pieces we can do. one is economics. you know, in florida, where the minimum wage, $15 minimum wage passed at the same time as the state went way more for trump than anyone expected, that should be a template. those kind of policies can appeal to people. and then the second thing is just listening. i started as a field organizer in a red county, wayne county, ohio. and one of the things we noticed was, you go -- you know, the equivalent -- you don't talk politics, necessarily, but you talk to people about themselves. you ask them about their lives. and just listening can do an enormous amount. and we're seeing that with some of the down-ballot candidates as well. conor lamb and some others, who won races, you know, sometimes outperforming biden, and certainly, providing a path forward for democrats in those areas. and if we can claw back some of that rural vote, republicans are in real trouble for a long time. >> david, we're lucky to have you because i'm going to ask you

to take off your political analyst hat and put on your speechwriter hat. if this goes according to plan, the way the biden campaign expects it to, all eyes will be on president-elect joe biden in the coming hours. he will address the nation. write that speech for us. what is the message? what is the theme? what are the words, joe biden, president-elect of the united states, would say to a very divided country, given what we just went through? >> well, i would start with saying, you know, maybe we can all get some sleep. but other than that, i think there is -- you know, what we've been seeing from joe biden is a reminder of what a president looks like. i mean, the contrast could not be more stark right now, and the campaign is over, the votes are in, but even so, you have joe biden out there saying, stay calm, stay confident, trust in our democracy, and then you have donald trump making up crazy nonsense from the white house and putting our election integrity and our democracy at risk. so, i think just, you know,

keeping the faith is what he's been telling us to do. but in that same token, staying steady, staying calm, reminding people what a president really looks like and sounds like, and i think it's just going to be so refreshing to hear that voice and say, hey, we get four more years of this and not that other guy. we get to stop, you know, having our blood pressure rise every time the president goes and speaks. >> david litt, thanks for coming on. we appreciate it. former speechwriter for president obama. good to see you. after installing a record number of federal judges in his first term in office, the president is turning to the judiciary in a last-ditch effort to stave off electoral defeat. it has not been a successful strategy so far, but the trump campaign does have six outstanding legal challenges in various states. so, let's bring in joshua geltzer with the georgetown law institute for constitutional advocacy and protection. joshua, really good to see you. it's been a little while. talk about what we are going to see from the trump campaign. they're going to try to exploit

every avenue they can to try to find a way to claw back some votes. do they have any arguments? >> not that we have heard so far, katy. now, one thing about going to court, and especially prevailing in court, is that you need facts and you need law to be on your side. and so far, the trump campaign lacks both. yes, they are suing. they are claiming that they aren't being allowed, for example, to observe ballot counting, the way they are entitled to by law. but when pressed in court, their lawyers are acknowledging, actually, yes, they are in the room, they are observing the way they're entitled to by law. so, at some point, this begins to look like disinformation through litigation. they're not real legal claims. they're just ways to advance the trump talking points, katy. >> so, let me ask you, joshua, if i can, what joe biden does here, because as these legal challenges emerge, and as you

and other legal experts have said, they may not necessarily have a strong leg to stand on. the argument that the trump campaign is making is trying to either discredit the voting process, the counting process, and have those ballots cast aside. legally speaking, how much should joe biden fight every step of the way and how much should -- he should just let it play its course and have faith that the courts may dismiss those challenges? >> so, i think the biden campaign is doing just what it needs to do in court of answering where it needs to answer, of establishing the facts where it needs to establish the facts. sometimes it's state officials who are able to do that. but of course, the biden campaign has a role, too. but i also think it's important to keep doing what we hear those around biden doing, which is explaining to the public what's fundamentally happening here, which is if you zoom way out -- >> josh, i'm so sorry to interrupt you, but we've got some numbers out of georgia. >> kornacki. >> steve? >> okay, this is a big one, and this is, again, one of these

situations where we've got the county website that has just given us an update. it's not quite in our system, so i'm going to have to do this manually and then this, hopefully, will adjust quickly. but we have been waiting for more vote from clayton county, overwhelmingly democratic clayton county, and we just got a new batch. the new batch of votes is for joe biden 1,602. for donald trump, 223. so, that is a difference, a net gain for biden of 1,380 votes, a net gain of that. trump led statewide by 463. biden has now gained 1,380 votes -- >> oh, my gosh. >> -- on him, meaning that when these are added to the system, joe biden will have a lead statewide in georgia of 917 votes.

so, biden -- and i think, just based on the size of this update, that this might be the last of the remaining vote from clayton county. they have been up all night doing this. they have been releasing this in varying batches, so we have to check on this. but i think this might be the last remaining vote from clayton county. but again, it's now come in through their county website. i could just take this off. i'm going to just try to show you the difference here. in clayton county, you see our system right now has 92,027 votes for biden, but this update came in about two minutes ago, three minutes ago, has him at 93,629. you know, we have trump at 15,373 in our system, 15,595 is the new number, per the clayton county website. that update just came in. so, again, showing you the math on that, that will put joe biden ahead in georgia. now, there are still votes to come. >> right. >> there are still some other

counties -- gwinnett comes to mind -- where there are votes to be counted today, later today, friday. this is, i think, very possibly all that's to come from clayton county. but the overall trend of these mail ballots being counted up in georgia has been favorable to biden, even in republican areas. so, biden getting ahead like this -- he has a possibility here. this is a little different in pennsylvania. we keep talking about, wherever there's mail vote, biden's making big gains. it's been a little bit more complicated in georgia, but there is definitely a possibility here of biden making further gains and expanding that lead. again, 917 with this update that should be coming in here shortly from clayton county, puts joe biden in the lead in georgia. >> steve, if the other counties that are outstanding in georgia -- fulton, dekalb, et cetera -- if they break -- can

they break in a big enough way toward joe biden to avoid a runoff? >> i don't think so, because we're talking about such a slim number of votes here, you know, less than 10,000, i think. 10,000 at the most, i would say. that's kind of the ballpark we're talking about, so that's not something that would knock this thing, you know, out of recount range. we're talking about a very narrow margin. again, there's the margin between the candidates. there's whether we're overseas, military personnel ballots. there might be a scattering of those, i think is probably the fairest expectation there today that could come in there. so, i think this one is safely landing in recount territory, no matter what happens here. >> so, let me ask you this, because there's a little bit of this that's like playing chess on a puzzle. with georgia off the map for president trump, does he still have a path to 270? because i know that he needs georgia and pennsylvania, but if you take georgia off, does he still have a path with the way everything else is trending? >> well, if trump were to lose georgia -- and again, i don't

think even with this development there's going to be a call there -- >> for sure. >> -- you know, any time soon. and again, there's still some vote out, so let's see. but this is what the electoral map looks like right now. the trump path really requires him to win pennsylvania, to win north carolina, to win georgia -- see, now he's getting up to 265 -- to win alaska -- that's a state he, likely, but -- i'm so scared to use these words. it's alaska, you kind of think it goes for trump, but we'll see. then arizona or nevada. everything here, plus alaska, then either arizona or nevada. now, if georgia goes blue in this scheme, biden's up to 269, right? >> yeah. >> the worst biden could do at that point is an electoral college tie. and biden, in this scenario, you know, with the win in pennsylvania, he's the president-elect, you know. with a win in arizona, he's the president-elect. with a win in nevada, he's the

president-elect. so, if biden got georgia, any combination -- a big combination of other states here could put him over the top. but trump has to have georgia as part of his mix here. >> and an electoral tie, 269-269, goes to the house of representatives, and that favors republicans -- >> what a scenario that would be. >> and it's likely that donald trump would keep his seat -- >> yeah. >> -- if he goes that route. i mean, obviously, he can't -- >> it's based on delegations. >> it's based on delegations, not the number of representatives that are in congress. go watch the episode of "veep." it explains it all. and it's very entertaining. steve kornacki, we are still waiting for philadelphia. we're going to give you a break for a second, unless you want to walk us through anything else in philadelphia. >> let's just press the button here and make sure we didn't miss anything. no, it remains, 18,229. i will shout if we get anything from philadelphia. and again, yeah, i'm just making sure here, because we had that

confusing one a little while ago with the false in philadelphia -- >> coming out of philadelphia every two hours, right? two hours, three hours? >> 2 1/2, somewhere in there. >> the last update was 1:30? >> 1:21 a.m. >> exactly? 20 seconds. >> let me just go back to georgia. has it refreshed in our system to show that joe biden has taken the lead? i know you're explaining it to our viewers, but as a visualization? because everybody -- >> not yet. >> -- now sees america in the red and blue colors -- >> yeah, not yet. and again, i'm just looking. i'm comparing the vote totals here in clayton county in our system with the vote totals here on the official website -- >> the limitations of computers. you can't replace the human brain or the steve kornacki brain, at least. >> but this is -- yeah, this is the official county government of clayton county, and they've been doing this all night. >> so, as of 4:32 a.m., joe biden leads by about 900-plus points -- or 900-plus votes, i should say, in the state of georgia, after the recent batch from clayton county. steve kornacki, stay with us. we're going to be coming back to

you throughout the hour. >> got it. >> let's move on. kendra bark-off is a former spokeswoman for joe biden when he was vice president. it's great to have you with us. thank you so much for joining us. first of all, let me get your reaction to the news we're just getting within the hour, that joe biden, as expected, with the trends that we have been seeing, has now taken a very small, but nonetheless, important, symbolic step in overtaking president trump in the state of georgia. >> look, i think we've seen all along that vice president biden, soon-to-be president-elect biden, has said, be calm, stay patient. these numbers are going to come in. we're going to keep counting until every vote is counted, and we'll be victorious. so, i think that's exactly what we're doing. we're waiting. we're seeing all the votes as they slowly tally in, and they slowly come in. and we'll see that his leads will continue to grow in georgia and in pennsylvania, where he, you know, still is a little behind, but we know that from

what we've seen and what we've heard that those numbers are going to jump up as they come in from the suburbs of philadelphia and from the suburbs of pittsburgh and allegheny county. >> as somebody who worked for him when he was vp, how are you feeling right now? what's your reaction to all this? >> you know what, it is such a surreal experience. you know, i spent a lot of time on the road with him, traveling across not only pennsylvania, which i spent a lot of time with him, but across the country and across the world. and he is someone who can bring the nation together in a way that really needs to be done. he knows how to, you know, talk to everybody. you've seen it, even this week when he went out there on wednesday and gave a speech about how using president obama's famous words that there's not blue states, there's not red states, there's the united states of america. and i am here to govern for all of you. and i think that's really true. i think that he will be a leader and a president, in a time when

we really need someone who will take us and lead us out of this pandemic. he will listen to the scientists, and he will follow their lead and take us to where we need to be as a country. >> let me ask you as a spokesperson, former spokesperson, the message that joe biden needs to be delivering right now to a very divided country. obviously, we're still very early, and i don't want to get aahead of myself, but as we've heard from our correspondents there in the biden world, he is poised, based on the way things are playing out, that it is trending in his favor. and assuming he does win, what is the message? what is the tone that the former vice president needs to set to really, not just for ordinary americans who may be very divided about this, but also for the political world and the political reality that we're seeing emerge on capitol hill? >> look, i think he's already started to deliver that message, right? i mean, again, we saw it earlier this week when he went out and gave a speech where he talked about, whether you voted for me

or not, i'm still going to be your president. and i've seen it firsthand. i walked the halls of capitol hill with him when he pulled together economic deals. he knows how to talk to republicans. he knows how to talk to democrats. and i think that's what he's going to continue doing is sharing this message that, i am here to sort of bring us all together so that we can move forward as a nation. and i think you've started to see it already. i think you're going to continue seeing it. he doesn't want to be a divided president because that's not who he is as a person. he's an inclusive person. he is someone who has empathy and who has the ability to talk to people on both sides of the aisle and bring everybody together. you've seen it. you know, he's been the vice president, obviously, and you've seen it with kamala harris. he's brought her in. they're getting these briefings. they're talking with the scientists and with doctors about covid and where to go from here, and i think you're going to see him continue to lead and

take a place where everybody can understand who he is as a president-elect and that he will be inclusive and wants everybody at the table. >> all right, kendra barkof, thank you for joining us. i appreciate your insights this hour. we are going to take a quick break. it is 4:36 a.m. the big news just within the last few minutes, the state of georgia now has turned blue for joe biden. he has a small lead in that state, but joe biden does now have a lead of 917 points in the peach state. stay with us. our special election coverage continues after the break. our s continues after the brea k. we're helping change the future of heart failure. understanding how to talk to your doctor about treatment options is key. today, we are redefining how we do things. we find new ways of speaking, so you're never out of touch. it's seeing someone's face that comforts us, no matter where. when those around us know us, they can show us just how much they care.

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♪ all right, just to bring you up to speed, joe biden is gaining in pennsylvania. he is also gaining in georgia. we currently have no calls to

make, but we are awaiting more numbers. they are coming in. oh, gosh, we wish we could give you a schedule. they're coming in when they come in! and we'll go to steve when we know more. grace pinata is with business insider and tia mitchell, washington correspondent for the "atlanta journal-constitution." ladies, thanks so much for being here. tia, i guess i want to start with you. as we eye georgia as closely as we have been, give the credit where credit is due. what do we owe this change in momentum that we're seeing in georgia, which used to be such a reliably red state, which used to have newt gingrich witch as ayman mohyeldin's representative as he was growing up, in georgia? >> yeah. georgia democrats have been saying for years that it can happen here. and of course, we know stacey

abrams came very close in 2018 when she ran for governor. and they have been saying all along, mayor keisha lance bottoms, who was an early surrogate for vice president biden, and she's been saying that georgia is a place that can help him win the presidency. a lot of folks were skeptical, but the demographics of georgia is changing, and georgia's population is becoming more diverse. and all of those things together have led us to this point where right now joe biden is leading donald trump in georgia. >> grace, let's talk about the politics of washington, if i can for a moment, certainly on capitol hill, and what the dynamic is that is unfolding among democrats. i had a chance to speak to majority whip jim clyburn earlier. he plans on running for re-election. is there a moment for soul-searching for the democratic party, based on their

performance? do you think that the democratic caucus in congress will be happy, or at least sufficiently happy with the fact that they are retaining power, despite losing some seats? >> so, that's a really great point. i'm really glad you brought this up, because in the conversation about the presidential results, what's kind of getting lost is this really disappointing performance that down-ballot democrats had. they were hoping that biden, a moderate at the top of the ticket, would protect the vulnerable democrats, but at least several so far have lost re-election. and you're absolutely right, there's going to be a huge reckoning here. part of it may have just been the unprecedented circumstances brought about by the pandemic, but it absolutely is true that in some of these places like in south florida, for example, democrats are really struggling among hispanics and have arguably failed to do sufficient outreach in those communities, and that's going to be something that they really will need to reckon with now and is absolutely going to shape both the future of congress and the way that a potential biden administration works with congress, with the caucus change. >> there was a contentious caucus call among congressional

democrats earlier. i believe it was -- i guess it was yesterday now. and there was a lot of blame going around for what they saw in losing some of the seats. i think it was elissa slotkin -- was it elissa slotkin, up in michigan, talking about how democrats have got to move away from the word socialism, that defund the police, that she almost lost her seat because of that rhetoric. what do you see changing within the democratic caucus? do you see anything changing in terms of the politics, or in terms of leadership? >> yeah, absolutely. leadership is going to be huge here. i think sherry bustos, who is the chairwoman of the democratic campaign committee, she's going to face a lot of scrutiny and the other behind-the-scenes leadership will, too, sort of about what kind of outreach they're doing to the rest of the country, for example, on reaching out to hispanics, reaching out to young voters. it's definitely going to be a big reckoning. nancy pelosi will absolutely face some scrutiny as the house

speaker. and you know, throughout the whole leadership, they think we're going to be hearing a lot more about that in the coming months as, you know, challenges get mounted. >> tia, let me stay on this -- sorry, i apologize because of the delay there for a second. let me just pick up on that point from grace about the senate race in georgia. if it potentially does go, as we now see it going to a runoff, with the imliction that both of these seats are now up for grabs, how likely do you think we're going to see an inflood of money and resources from both the democratic party as well as the republican party? jon ossoff has already been involved in one of the most expensive races, when he was running for his house seat that he lost. he may be in for another very expensive senate race. >> yeah. all the money, all the attention, all the focus is going to be on georgia, because we're going to pretty much be the only game in town, in very

consequential senate races, especially if the democratic control of the senate is dependent on both of those seats being won by democrats. so, we expect a lot of money. it's going to be hard for democrats because runoffs, usually in georgia, republicans have a track record of winning those runoff races, including that jon ossoff runoff you mentioned. but we expect both parties to put all their resources, all their attention, we expect all the leaders of the party to be campaigning in georgia in hopes of winning those seats. >> is the money a benefit? we saw a ton of money poured into the race in kentucky with amy mcgrath against mitch mcconnell, a ton of money poured into the race in south carolina with jaime harrison and lindsey graham, a ton of money up in maine in the race against susan collins. is money helpful, especially

outside money, all this money that floods in, helpful in these statewide races? >> i think money matters, we know, but money is not the end all, be all. you've got to have a message. and we also know it's hard to unseat an incumbent. it's hard to unseat an incumbent in a red state. the difference in georgia, as we're seeing tonight, is that georgia's not as red as it used to be, and therefore, jon ossoff and reverend raphael warnock have a fighting chance. but money alone, pouring money into georgia isn't going to help them win. the messaging, as we talked about -- you know, they have been called socialists. they have been accused of wanting to defund the police, even though that's not part of their platform. and so, we expect that. reverend warnock already put out an ad saying he expects the attacks to come now that he's made it into the runoff. and so, i think it's going to be both, though, but you can't win,

especially with so much attention on georgia. so much money is going to be thrown at it, that if it's a lopsided thing, then that will be hard for any candidate to win without having money behind them. >> grace panetta, senior politics editor at business insider and tia mitchell, wae t washington correspondent for the "atlanta journal-constitution," thank you so much. we had been waiting for the computer to update on the state of georgia with the numbers you just got. where are we now? >> yeah, now the computer's updated. but instead of my scribbling on the screen, you can now very clearly see that last update from clayton county. it's now in our system. and there it is. you are looking at results right now with 99% of the votes counted from the state of georgia, and joe biden leads donald trump by 917 votes. again, that is another report there from clayton county that just came in, overwhelmingly

democratic county in the atlanta area. it's been reporting out votes all night, bringing biden closer and closer, and now putting biden into the lead. that may be the last of the vote to come out from clayton county, but not the last of the vote from georgia. there still are several thousand other votes that are out there. this was the only county, clayton, that was up all night counting. there are other counties that will resume that in the next few hours. votes will come out during the day. if you're the biden campaign, what you like is those votes are coming disproportionately from democratic counties, for instance, gwinnett county is one of these counties where we still are waiting on some absentee ballots, some mail ballot. they will be tabulating that and releasing it today. you can see biden is already winning that county by a wide margin. give you a sense of i think what the expectation is for how that vote's going to go. so, in other words, there is an opportunity, now that he's gotten ahead, ahead by 917, there's an opportunity for biden to build on that advantage and build on his lead there in

georgia. so, we will see where it all lands. wherever it lands, and if it does land with joe biden leading statewide, the recount provision in georgia, the losing candidate, if it's within half a point, 0.5%, the losing candidate can say, hey, i want a recount. this is virtually certain to end within 0.5 points, again, even if biden builds this lead a little bit. so, we've seen the trump campaign. in another state, wisconsin, they have a similar procedure, and say, yes, we want the recount. so, does that suggest they would do the same if they finish second here? but if biden's able to build a significant lead here, there is a question then, too. you go into a recount with a big lead, even if few votes move around in the recount, you've got more of a pad, potentially, for that recount. so, yeah, no democrats won georgia in 28 years. now here we are on the thursday after the election, 99% is in, a few thousand votes remain, and the democrat, joe biden, leads

by 917 votes. >> he leads. he has not overtaken -- i mean, he has not won the state. and we're being very clear that the margin is probably going to be so small that whatever the margin is, it could likely lead to a recount. can i make a quick correction from something i said a moment ago? i was talking about a call on the democratic caucus complaining about the results of the house races across the country and democrats losing seats. i said elissa slotkin explained about defund the police and socialism. it was actually abby spanberger, according to the reporting. so i just want to clear that up. it was said, but i got the wrong congresswoman. >> steve, can i just go back to georgia for a moment? you mentioned gwinnett county. i'm curious, do you have a general ballpark of how many ballots are still in the counting process? how many ballots are still out there? because 917 -- especially when you include military and provisional ballots. do we have that number by any chance? >> right. the military provisional, just to be clear on this, because i

think when we say pending military provisional ballots -- military and overseas ballots, the deadline for which is today, at the end of the day. that doesn't mean they're sitting on a giant pile of military and overseas ballots. just waiting to get to them today. they've actually had a bunch of them already, processed them and reported them out. it's just if there's any more to come in, today's the deadline for that. >> got it. >> so, there were a total of 8,800 military overseas ballots sent out. and as of yet, not returned. so, theoretically, all of those 8,800 could come in by the end of today, and they would count them. practically speaking, the vast majority of those likely are just votes that aren't going to be cast. people got the ballot and said, no, i am not going to send it back, for whatever reason. but that is a bit of a wild card. we don't know if there will be any votes that come in there. so, that's one of the issues. in terms of how many votes in gwinnett -- again, ballpark here, i think -- i do think we're talking about a couple

thousand votes left in gwinnett, and again, in a couple other of these counties here. but overall, we're not talking about a huge number of votes anymore. i think we might be talking inside 10,000 that are left at this point. >> has the senate race changed at all with that last batch that we got? because i know we're already below the threshold for the runoff, but has it -- >> it did. look at that. david perdue. he was at 49.9% before that last update. and he's now at 49.8%. he's now moved another notch below that threshold. again, that's -- he needs now -- perdue does, with these outstanding votes -- he would need to be winning the remaining votes in georgia and he'd need to be winning them by a substantial enough margin that he could get back to 50%, plus one. otherwise, he's headed to a runoff, so -- >> steve, we are coming up on our hard out, and we thought we would get some philadelphia numbers during this three-hour block that we've been here with

you. let's check one more time. >> i thought you would, too, katy. give it -- >> we really thought. i mean, you said between 4:00 and 5:00, and i trusted you. >> let's give it a shot. i'm in senate. let's spin the wheel of fortune. and oh, katy, i hate to disappoint you. i really thought -- >> they're going to come in at 5:01. >> at least they were on late at night in philadelphia and elsewhere. i said, i really thought we were going to get more -- >> the problem is not, you're committed to the rest of the day. we're getting off the air at 5:00. you took the bigger gamble on this coming in throughout the last three hours. >> let me be careful here. i'm not necessarily committed for the rest of the day. i'm committed until we get a winner, if we get a winner. >> okay, smart move. >> when you said a little bit earlier, many, many hours ago now, that we were going to get some numbers between 4:00 and 5:00, i perked up, and i woke up! i didn't even need a nap. i thought, i'm going into work and something's going it happen. >> your ankle bracelet will not allow you to leave the building, steve. you cannot do that. thank you very much, my friend.

>> thanks, guys. >> talking to you throughout these hours. that does it for us this hour. thanks for watching. i'll be back later today at 3:00 p.m. katy will be back at 2:00 p.m. >> we'll see, at least. >> yeah, certainly. >> see what happens tomorrow. >> anything could happen between now and then. it's a lot of time. >> don't go anywhere, because even though you're losing us -- and we don't want to leave, but you are losing us -- kasie hunt is going to continue our coverage. >> i wonder what could happen at 5:01. >> "way too early with kasie hunt." lucky girl. see you later. y with kasie hunt." lucky girl see you later.

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♪ president trump lashes out as joe biden inches closer to victory. the electoral score at this hour -- joe biden, 253, donald trump, 214. biden has now taken the lead in georgia, while the most critical state on the map, pennsylvania, is within biden's reach. good morning, and welcome to ay