personal moment to say that i'm humbled and we here at "way too early" are humbled by and grateful for the service of all of our veterans on this veterans day morning. we can't thank you enough for the freedom and this democratic system that we all enjoy. thank you very much. that was "way too early." stick around, "morning joe" starts right now. after a moment of posing for photographers, it was into the white house to continue what has been day of transition business for the president-elect. the president pledged personally to carter he would do everything needed to make the transition smooth. >> that could not have been a better demonstration of unity and friendship and goodwill than has been shown to me by president ford since the election. >> he escorted the reagans back outside saying we're very glad to have you here. >> the president was most gracious, most helpful and has

been, has gone ought to be completely helpful in the transition. >> when george bush walked down to welcome bill clinton to the white house, both were looking forward to the future, not on the bitter campaign. th afterward clinton was grateful for the tone bush established. >> it was a terrific meeting. the president was very helpful to me. >> the times when a first term president invited the new president-elect to the white house after losing the election. simpler times. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." wednesday, november 11th, veterans day. along with joe, willie and me we have white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lemire, nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early" kasie hunt and politics and journalism professor at morgan state university, politics editor at

the grio and an msnbc political contributor jason johnson is with us as well. >> yeah. willie, i'm a simple country lawyer. >> here we go. >> willie knows this. >> yeah. >> we tried some cases together in rural alabama. >> i feel bad for our clients. sitting on death row i feel terrible about it. >> stop. terrible. >> heart wasn't it in. we had to adjourn to see a couple alabama games. i just don't get it, there's some career moves i don't understand. us going down there and doing capital cases, bad career move on our part. us getting involved in the import/export business. >> what's your points? >> early '70s. >> funny. >> i don't get that. lizzo's instagram post yesterday, i'm not sure what the career move was there. >> i showed him that. >> i missed that.

>> maybe there's something. yeah. and what donald trump is doing right now, i don't really -- what's the career move there? he knows there's no paths left for him. the counts keep going up in georgia and pennsylvania. he's not going to get a recount worth anything that's going to add up to anything in wisconsin. even scott walker said that. he's not going to get it in michigan. he's just setting himself up to lose one challenge after another challenge after another challenge, and if he does want to run again in 2024, just doesn't help him at all. just being seen as a loser repeatedly in all of these stupid challenges. >> somebody did that with loser.com. >> i mean, joe biden keeps running up the score frankly as these counts come in from arizona, as more votes came in yesterday from the state of

georg georgia and pennsylvania. some people think the margin in pennsylvania could be 100,000 votes in that state. we we we're well outside of recount territory, except for the state of georgia, but the more they push back and fight, the worse this seems to get. we've had court cases dismiss across the country. vote counts going up. joe biden winning the popular vote by more than any challenger to a one-term president since fdr in 1932 and if you look at a poll that was out yesterday, i think it tells the story. there's a lot of noise coming from the trump campaign and some republicans, but here's where the country is, reuters inso poll, 79% of the country, not of democrats, the country, believe joe biden won the election. 13% have not decided. 5% don't know. and 3, not 30, not 13, 3% of americans believe donald trump won the election.

he's losing in court and votes with every passing moment and america, despite what you're hearing from the campaign and loud noise and protests you're hearing from some republicans, some of them couching and others being more vocal about it, the american people know what happened here and joe biden, by the way, and the world are moving forward with the fact that he is president-elect. >> evers is, and kasie hunt, you look at what's happening in georgia, mitch mcconnell's status as majority leader is on the line. i mean if they get this behind them, and run tough campaigns, they've got a better than even shot of picking up both of those seats, but right now they're creating a civil war in georgia and the republican party and those two senators, especially, are just looking stupid, chasing conspiracy theories that really relatively few people believe. why put your state seats and, in

fact, why put the republican majority at risk? all you're doing is -- i know they're thinking they're whipping up the republican base bus they're doing the same to the democratic base. donald trump is not going to be on the ballot when those special elections are run and republican support drops off when he's not on the ballot? >> that's exactly what we learned from the 2018 results and then the 2020 results and joe, the only way i can explain it, is that they are still incredibly scared of tweets from president trump. they are afraid that he will start attacking one or the other of the senators if they don't, you know, toe his line. they're afraid that will turn off what republican voters do exist that will show up to the polls because they like trump.

they're afraid of the base and that's been the narrative all the way along here. i think the -- when i was reporting going too election night, i think republicans would have been ready to kind of shuffle president trump toward the exits if this were the outcome, but this puts them right back in the box that they've been in the entire time, kind of the box that makes people like mike pompeo, who we all, you know, treated as a serious person, get up there and say something that is clearly not the case at all because they're afraid of what president trump will say to his base about them. he is still very much in control of where they go on this. to your point, joe, i think in georgia, what we learned from joe biden winning georgia really underscores the point you made. it seems obvious to me that, you know, the state is changing in a

way that reflects all of the problems that president trump has created for republicans, especially in these suburbs, an you also combine that with the get out to vote apparatus that stacey abrams has been building in georgia and here we are. i think it's in many ways a totally impossible situation for them, but the longer it goes on, the more questions we have and republicans yesterday started raising questions about we got to get this transition under way, there are national security implications here, we need to kind of get this moving along. >> and the president seems to be depleting some very, very important intelligence institutions of top people. we'll get to that. here are the updates in states where ballots are still being counted and where president trump is mounting legal challenges and claim fraud. in michigan in 2016 trump won the state by nearly 11,000 votes. right now, biden currently leads

there by 148,000 votes. a swing of nearly 159,000, votes from maine to be counted there. >> in pennsylvania in 2016 trump won by 44,292 votes. right now biden leads by 45,616, a swing of nearly 90,000 votes. an estimated 115,000 estimated -- 115,541 votes remain to be counted there. in arizona, in 2016, trump won by just over 91,000 votes. right now biden leads nearly 13,000 votes, a swing of nearly 104,000 votes, an estimated 51,000 votes remain to be counted there. and in georgia, in 2016, trump won the state by just over

211,000 votes, currently biden leads there by over 14,000 votes, a swing of nearly 225,000 votes, estimated 32,000 votes remain to be counted there. >> jonathan lemire, whether talking about wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, or georgia, they're just -- there are to the -- the margins are not close enough to justify any recount. there will be no meaningful change in any of those results based on history, and you look at arizona, arizona has such a tough recount mechanism that you have to get within 200 votes for it to have a possibility of any recount there. then the campaigns can't even ask for it. this is a president who is completely blocked out of switching a state that, you

know, that would make a difference in the outcome. he would have to flip two or three states at this point and it's to the going to happen. talk to any legal expert on the republican or democratic side, talk to any election official as "the new york times" did went across the constructiuntry, thet to the -- it's over. it's over unless he can get doc's demore yan time machine and go back a couple months and start the campaign again. it's over for him. >> good "back to the future" reference there. successful recounts tend to pick up a few dozen votes, maybe 100 or so at most in terms of changing sides and that's not necessarily to mean they would break for president trump. joe biden may pick up more votes in a recount. the margins in these states are too big and these legal challenges seem des tind to

fail. the white house has had no meaningful success in any legal challenge. even as you say if one state was to turn its result over, he would still be well short. he is either going to be several states he would have to do and that's not going to happen. what next? how long do republicans let him play out this game? i've talked to some of his advisors and said, what's the harm in giving him a few days to come to term withes they and explore the legal options. that's what we've heard from senate majority leader mcconnell and others. this is slowing a transition at a time of true crisis. the coronavirus pandemic is surging out of control across the country, the worst it's ever been, state by state setting record number of cases each day and we have a president who in the meantime has largely abandoned his day job. he himself has not attended a coronavirus task force briefing in months.

his public schedule does not show he's received an intelligence briefing since october 1st. the white house hasn't read out a foreign leader call in weeks. he is simply not doing governing the country right now at a time of crisis and we're seeing joe biden try to step into that breach. his campaign offered readouts of several foreign leader calls yesterday who offered congratulations the president-elect. we know that he has already organized his coronavirus task force but there's a limit to what he can do right now. he is not the president. he is not receiving these briefings. there comes a moment, and we may already be there, where president trump's refusal to cooperate with the transition, with the government agencies refusing to authorizes the win and allowing these biden landing teams to enter these government agencies, could be putting lives at risk and endangering the entire nation. >> we will with talk through more of the "new york times" piece a minute ago where they spoke to election officials in all 50 states and not a single one of them reported any

widespread election fraud, including republican heavy states. donald trump refusing to concede. most republicans on capitol hill won't publicly admit joe biden is president-elect, but president-elect biden himself is saying the trump administration's stonewalling will not stop his transition. >> the ability for the administration in any way by failure to recognize our win does not change the dynamic at all and what we're able to do. we can get through without the funding. >> what do you say to the americans that are anxious over the fact that president trump has yet to concede and what that might mean for the country? >> well, i just think it's an embarrassment, quite frankly. the only thing that -- how can i say this tactfully?

i think it will not help the president's legacy. >> to wilmington, delaware, mike memoli covering the biden from the beginning. it appears outwardly and talking privately to some people the biden campaign and president-elect biden himself just not that concerned about this. they know about their leads in these states, they know about the failures of the trump campaign's legal challenges time and time again and it just seems they think it's a matter of time, not if, but how president trump will leave office. >> yeah. willie, the president-elect at this point is trying to show he's going to goinvern the way campaigned, promising to try to lower the temperature and deescalate in this country. when democrats on capitol hill are sounding the alarm about the fact that he has not gotten the opportunity to begin the transition execution he has been planning for months, biden himself really downplaying that

yesterday saying it was not consequential these delays, even the fact that he's not getting the presidential daily brief, but i think it's worth stepping back and i've spent time talking to former white house chiefs of staff and other senior officials involved in multiple transitions, some of which didn't end up happening, and they say even in ideal circumstances, the presidential transition, the handoff of power from one administration to another, is a perilous moment for this country and no one knows that better than george w. bush, who obviously had a shortened transition because of the contested florida recount and then saw in the first eight months of his administration one of the greatest terror attacks in american history. so as he went toward the end of his presidency he gave direction to his chief of staff josh bolton, i want you to begin planning the most effective and seamless transition in presidential history. president obama, obama's team, to this day, credit george w.

bush for that, for just how professional and nonpartisan that transition was. in many ways, it created best practices, the gold standard of transition and those were actually written into law after bush's administration by the very man who is now running joe biden's transition, ted kaufman, former senator from delaware. where we could have seen potentially another seamless transition with a lot of folks very experienced in governing, we're seeing the trump administration using a technicality here, a bureaucratic tech know callty, the idea of ascertaining who is the victor to try to delay that and withhold it from the president-elect. his team sending all indications they're trying to proceed nonetheless and announced hundreds of names of individuals who when they get the go ahead will begin to go into federal government agencies, take stock of what needs to be done, trying to reassure the country they're confident they will get to the

point. clearly behind the scenes there is concern and the possibility of legal action if there is not any change in this posture in the coming days. >> to your earlier point the 9/11 commission actually pointed to that delayed transition as one of the problems that they weren't prepared. mike memoli with the biden transition in wilmington, delaware, thanks so much. jason johnson, we heard from world leaders congratulating some of them, again joe biden on his win, angela merkel, boris johnson, emmanuel macron and president erdogan of turkey who has been a close friend of president trump and president trump has pointed to time and again as his friend. erdogan congratulating joe biden on his win there. i showed you the poll only 3% of americans believe that donald trump won this election. where do you think we are in this process? most people seem to know where it's headed except for donald trump and a handful of republicans in the senate.

>> well, i think we're seeing yet another example of the kind of constitutional changes we would like to see in this country that probably won't happen under biden. one of the things we've seen from the republicans over the last couple years, end of obama and trump administration, oh, is maybe there should be a constitutional law about replacing supreme court justices, maybe there should be rules in place about appointments to administrations. a lot of things we thought were just norms that people would follow and be reasonable about, if you have somebody in the office who doesn't care, they don't happen. this transition is showing that as well. look, the initial reason for having a long transition from the end of an election to a new administration is because people used to have to move around the country on horseback. we didn't have trains. there's no reason to have a 70-day gap between an election and a new administration anymore. we're seeing why that is a problem for the same kinds of reasons we've seen problems during the trump administration. here's what i think about -- and

really mackerel level, there's larger concerns and national security concerns, but watching trump manage this transition it's the same callous disregard for everyday human beings that is sort of defined his entire presidency. people are trying to figure out if they have to move. there are families in california and illinois, people being asked to join this administration in different places and they don't know if they can move yet because they don't know if donald trump is going to leave office. this is the callousness that's always defined his administration. >> well, and you even look, that's a great point, you look on his side, people who have worked for him, people who have put up with a lot of abuse to be on team trump sitting in the white house who were told last week, if we catch you looking for another job we're going to fire you on the spot. everybody that's working in the white house right now is frozen and the way washington works is when everybody figures out who the winners are and losers

are -- and they've already figured that out, every lobbying company in washington, d.c. figured that out, lockheed and boeing, the defense contractors have figured that out, every other think tank in washington have figured that out, and those people inside the white house right now are frozen and can't look for jobs. they know they've lost their jobs. they know they're going to have to find a new job come january the 20th. and as jason said, he doesn't care. trump doesn't care about other people they know that. >> especially his own. they're there twisting in the wind when everybody inside the white house knows that he's lost this race and it's time to move on if he's going to really come back and try to run again in 2024. now is the time to start that campaign. but not by looking like a sore

loser. it's a bad look on anybody. >> so all this as new covid-19 cases are rising at an alarming rate. with the u.s. surpassing 1 million in just the first ten days of november. new daily cases have topped 100,000 every day for over a week pushing the running total to more than 10 million. nationwide hospitals are getting slammed as cases surge in 49 states. according to the covid tracking project, the number of hospitalizations topped 60,000 yesterday for the first time. meanwhile governors across the nation are making desperate pleas with the public to take the fight against the virus more seriously. in wisconsin, governor tony evers issued an executive order issuing stay-at-home orders and limiting staff in work places.

in minnesota governor walz ordered bars and restaurants to close by 10:00 p.m. and in iowa governor reynolds will require masks at indoor gatherings of 25 or more people. joining us infectious disease physician an medical director of the special pathogens unit at boston university school of medicine, dr. nahid bhadelia. she's an nbc news and msnbc contributor and, dr. bhadelia, i think the news of the vaccine over the past few cases has added a lot of hope to the headlines pertaining to coronavirus, but if you read the data and correct me or help me understand the context we are in right now, it seems that we're going backwards and is there a concern that even hospitals are overrun again? >> good morning, mika. this is a scary time and the scariest of this is that there's no ceiling where the cases are

still increasing every single day and you're seeing places like north dakota where the governor is now passed a rule that allows covid positive nurses to go to work because there's shortages in health care workers. this is why we don't want health care systems to get overwhelmed because when they do it affects the care of all patients. it affects the health of health care workers, mort community transmission there is and cases there are the more chances health care workers could potentially get sick or overwhelmed at work. the pfizer vaccine is good news. i'll start with a caution bit of it. you know, trchlts fauci yesterday said that there might be doses available as early as december and meant for some health care workers and high risk patients. that's not going to get us the population level herd immunity from a vaccine we need. it won't help us this winter or won't help us as much this winter and particularly the three or four weeks where

everybody is planning to travel around thanksgiving. but it is good news. i mean that's the proof of concept around the fact that you could build a vaccine that could be highly effective around this virus is great, it's good news for the long term. there's a light at the end of the tunnel because that means not only does this vaccine work, but potentially other candidates like moderna's similar to pfizer could have a potential successful readout as well. it's going to be a long time between now and then. >> right. that's the question i have between now and a vaccine, its effectiveness and this is a number of steps. i'm not trying to downplay it. it's incredible news and breakthrough medicine, et cetera, but what about between now and the vaccine? what areas are seeing surges? what areas of the country are you most worried about? and are the full measures being taken to tamp it down? >> mika, amid what still remains

the leading area with the surges, but as you said 49 states are reporting increasing hospitalizations, so really we're all reaching for the same resources, the personal protective equipment and medications, and, you know, health care workers because you can't invent health care workers overnight and so previously when you had surges you might have had visiting nurses or health care workers that get pulled in from other states. when we get to abnationalized pandemic that's what becomes harder. secretary azar said they're looking to april potentially for widespread vaccinations and that would be great. it is -- it is a bit of an ambitious plan. it depends on a few things. getting that distribution as you said set up, but also administration making that vaccine available as widely as possible in communities that need it. having people take that vaccine are the most important things. you can invent a vaccine but if

people won't take it -- and we've seen sort of a drop of the number of people, one third will not take the vaccine, those are scary numbers. so the things that don't help in this situation is what president trump did yesterday where he further politicized the pfizer vaccine development process. we've been a country where a political a fillation decides if you wear a mask or social distancing. are we going to become a country where a political affiliation affects our taking a vaccine. >> dr. bhadelia, good morning. we're looking at all these cues about where this is headed. the cdc updated its guidelines on thanksgiving encouraging people to just have thanksgiving with members of their household, have it over zoom, outdoors if the weather permits. new york city there's a lot of concern among parent and kids here we're approaching a

positivity rate to force a shutdown of the schools once again. you've been saying this, forgive me for asking you again for eight months, what should we be doing right now if we want to stem this? because the trajectory of this is not good. >> yeah. i didn't answer part of mika's question previously. i don't think states are doing enough. they need to roll back reopenings. considerations should be put about if we do a short national rollback of reopenings, going back to phase one, now would be the time to do it because the longer we wait the harder this gets and the harder the lockdown would be that would be required. a softer lockdown would be better and widespread lockdowns not just the time limited sort of delays in business openings for indoors like restaurants and bars. but willie, the guidance to the public remains the same. let's wear that mask. there's now evidence, you know, growing evidence, it's not just that it protects other people but protects you. it reduces the dose of the virus

you get which could reduce the severity of the disease. physically distance. if you don't have to travel this year, this is the year that potentially as the cdc says, have our small household only thanksgiving and by next year we can have a bigger table around thanksgiving. >> all right. dr. nahid bhadelia, thank you. we'll be checking back in with you for sure. and still ahead on "morning joe," more on president trump's refusal to concede including his administration's plan to propose a budget for the next fiscal year even though trump won't be in office at that time. plus, secretary of state mike pompeo's apparent attempt at humor. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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president trump yesterday tweeted about secretary of state mike pompeo, quote, that's why mike was number one in his class at west point. here's what trump was reacting to. >> is the state department currently preparing to engage with the biden transition team and if not, at what point does a delay hamper a smooth transition or pose a risk to national security? >> there will be a smooth try transition to a second trump administration. we're ready. the world is watching what's taking place here. we're going to count all the votes. when the process is complete there will be a lector elected and there's a process. the constitution lays it out clearly. the world should have every confidence the transition necessary to make sure the state department is successful today and successful with a president in office on january 20th a minute after noon will also be successful. i went through a transition and i've been on the other side of this i'm confident that we will

do all the things that are necessary to make sure the united states government will continue to perform its national security function as we go forward. >> you believe there's widespread voter fraud and reports we're getting from pennsylvania, from michigan, showing vote totals and massive leads or significant leads with 99% reporting, are going to be overturned and that the united states failed to conduct a fraudulent-free election? >> rich, i'm the secretary of state. i'm getting calls from all across the world. these people are watching our election. they understand that we have a legal process. they understand that this takes time. it took us 37 plus days in an election in 2000. conducted a successful transition then. i'm very confident that we will count and we must count every legal vote and make sure that wasn't vote was unlawful, that dilutes your vote if it's done improperly, got to get that right, when we get it right we'll get it right. we're in good shape. >> joining us now, senior writer at politico and co-author of

"the playbook" jake sherman, an msnbc political contributor, and axios political reporter and msnbc contributor alexi mccammond joins us. jake, if you take out the joke he made at the top i guess one couldn't have too much of an issue with what the secretary of state said. your thoughts? >> i don't know if it was a joke or not. here's what i would say, and we wrote this in "playbook" this morning, there is nobody in washington, no republican that i have found who actually believes donald trump won this election. nobody believes tens of thousands of votes in multiple states are going to be overturned. this is all performance art and it's dangerous performance art at that. take the secretary of state, for example, i mean there are foreign service officers across the world who are in dangerous places right now of who have to

answer for this kind of stuff and i wonder what they are thinking. he would have a better pulse on that than i would. but this is all from the state senate to the house to administration nobody believes donald trump won this election. you were talking about looking for jobs on the front end. joe is right, the entire administration, alexi knows this, everybody is looking for a job. they all know they're out of a job in a couple weeks. we're watching a movie that is being constructed and that is unfolding because people want to make donald trump happy. that's what this is. when will it end? i don't know. i don't understand the strategy here. he's going to lose almost every challenge. when that happens is the theory going to be the entire country, every state government and court is colluding against him? i mean i just don't think there is a strategy and it's all kind of goofy. >> chris coons, democratic

senator, republicans are saying to him, because he know he's close with joe biden, republican senators are saying to him, tell joe biden congratulations, i'm not allowed to say it. does that ring true to you? >> totally. a lot of people know joe biden, not as many joe biden would like you to think because he's been out of the senate for 12 years, but these people know him. people like richard shelby, veteran republican from alabama who said yesterday, you know, brushed aside whether he had talked to him and said he didn't need to talk to him or some variation of that. these people served with him for 30 years in some cases, so, of course, it would make sense they're sending their well wishes because donald trump is losing in every state that he's claiming he might win in. i mean, sometimes it's good to ground ourselves back in reality and understand that there's no feasible way at this point that we can understand based on the

information at hand that donald trump has lost this election. i'm laughing with you because the contention is so bizarre. >> we walked through the vote spreads in the states they're contending, it's just not close in most of them. jonathan lemire, the president is the one person who took mike pompeo seriously perhaps i guess in what is being portrayed as a joke, very dry, not going to get him a netflix special off that, but the tweet from donald trump where he said this is why mike pompeo was first in his class at west point, that was a signal from mike pompeo to one man and he took it as serious. >> that's right. that's the phrase, audience of one that we have used so often in the last four years, willie, and that's what this moment clearly was. yeah, secretary of state maybe he was joking, but donald trump didn't think it was a joke. and this is clearly the secretary of state trying to keep the boss happy in the short

term, being not wanting to be an adviser that crosses him here, not wanting to be someone who is seen as contradicting the president of the united states, but, of course, pompeo is -- has his own political ambitions. he's widely thought of entertaining his own presidential run in 24e and -- 2024 and wants to keep donald trump happy and doesn't want to discuss thele his own bid across iowa and new hampshire in 2023 where at the very least playing the role of king maker. we have to take a step back and note what sort of signal is this sending to the rest of the world? let's take a thought of what we would think if this was happening in a different nation a foreign minister of a different state making a similar joke about a leader trying to hold on to power after he had been defeated in a fair and free election. there would be alarm bells in foggy bottom.

state department would be saying this is a crisis and we need to monitor closely. that's a message a lot of the world is showing an joe biden is projecting confidence and calm and our allies seem to be drawing reassurance from that. to be honest this is no laughing matter, despite mike pompeo's ill-advised attempt at dry humor. >> all right. so alexi mccammond, obviously the democrats didn't have the best outcome, the outcome they wanted in the house, and you spoke to jim clyburn who really made it clear how he felt, especially about some sloganing issues for the party. take a listen. >> i'm curious what you make of the fact of the house seats that you lost and why that happened? >> well, it happened simply because we were not able to discipline ourselves according to voter sentiment. we keep making that mistake. this foolishness about you got

to be this progressive or that progressive, that phrase, defund the police, caused jamie harrison tremendously. i'm not saying it was the only problem. >> so alexi, that has been sort of a strain in the party being talked about quietly out loud, sometimes not purposefully, but it is something that they have to look at for future success. >> yeah. i was talking to a couple of moderate, more moderate democrats yesterday, who were saying the idea that you need two wings in order to fly a plane and at least we still feel that way about our party, but we don't think the more progress members feel that way about our party, and that's because they are feeling like the right has successfully weaponized the slogans as congressman clyburn

was saying around policies whether police reform or otherwise that crushed democrats who won the republican districts in 2018 and in part helped dems take back the house two years ago, we're seeing how those folks are being punished by the constituents because of the misleading narrative around the larger democratic party that congressman clyburn and others, he's not alone, congressman mark feesy, and other feel is being weepized and crushing their challenges in down ballot races. they might be celebrating at the white house, they didn't make the gains in the house as they expected which, of course, makes it harder to move forward on the things that they want to do and especially true when looking at a republican controlled senate. that could change after the georgia senate races in january, but we're seeing these tensions play out as soon as joe biden wins the election and that's going to make his job a little bit more difficult because he's going to have to keep all factions of the party in line and happy and working together

in a way that they're kind of signaling they're not doing right now. >> kasie hunt, jump in. >> so the one thing i've been thinking about here and jason johnson i would like to get you to weigh in on this because alexandria ocasio-cortez has been out on twitter saying she's been trying to work on the mechanics of how to win, doug jones, member of the senate, one of the more moderate members of the senate, said they have to start rethinking how they do their campaigns to try to make those adjustments, there's also this cultural element part of what joe biden's team focused on trying to bridge some of the cultural divides that donald trump has spent a presidency stoking.

how do democrats grapple with fixing the tactics but thinking about the broader strategy? so aoc and doug jones are completely correct and i push back on everything that congressman clyburn said. he's a great guy, a king maker but he is wrong. i've said this a long time. first off anybody who didn't vote for a democrat because they heard defund the police was never going to vote for a democrat anyway. there are almost no democrats running who said defund the police, so it's ridiculous. as aoc talked about and we saw in georgia is the democratic party has to learn how to stop investing in personalities and start investing in states. it's not about amy mcgrath or stopping mitch mcconnell, it's about who are the indigenous people in that state who know street by street place by place how to get people out to vote. what is your internet strategy. being hurt in large part because

they were flooding ads on youtube in her district and she didn't have a counter. the democratic party those jump to not the 2000s, they got to jump into 2024. the disinformation campaign by the republican party is constant whether they're campaigning or not and democrats are way behind. i will say this when you talk about the cultural thing, you don't want to attack the people who brought you victory. the progressive wing of the party that moved georgia, the progressive wing of the party that moved parts of urban michigan. the progressive wing of the party that got people excited in pennsylvania. jumping up and down on those people and saying you're the problem is the last thing democrats need to do right now because you still have two races in georgia and the people who were encouraged and out there protesting the college students involved you need them to get out and vote again so make sure they get their jobs. democrats will shoot themselves in the foot when they have a chance to take control in the senate. >> all right.

jake sherman and alexi mccammond thank you both for your reporting this morning. coming up, the supreme court appears willing to leave the affordable care act in place, possibly with the help of a trump appointee? we'll explain ahead on "morning joe." we'll explain ahead on "mo joe. - [announcer] your typical vacuum has bristles that can leave cleaning gaps and wrap hair. so shark replaced them with flexible power fins to directly engage floors and dig deep into carpets. pick up more on every pass with no hair wrap. shark vertex with duoclean power fins.

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beginning on january 20th, vice president-elect harris and i, we're going to do everything we can in our power to ease the burden of health care on you and your family. i promise you that. as i said, i will protect your health care like it was my own family, and we've been unfortunately sig cant consumers of health care. that starts on building on the affordable care act with dramatic expansion and bold steps to lower health care costs. my transition team will still be starting its work to flesh out the details so we can hit the

ground running, tackling costs, increasing access, lowering the price of prescription drugs. families are reeling right now. >> that's president-elect joe biden yesterday announcing plans to expand health care coverage when he takes office. those comments come on the same day the united states supreme court heard argument for striking down the affordable care act, and in that session, two conservative supreme court justices indicated they are likely to vote to uphold the aca, even without the individual mandate. at issue, whether the aca should be allowed to stand after congress repealed the tax penalty payment on those who chose not to sign up for insurance. chief justice john roberts and justice brett kavanaugh implied the penalty could be tossed while keeping the rest of the law. >> i think it's hard for you to, a goo that congress intended the entire act to fall with the mandate, or struck down, when the same congress that lowered

the penalty to zero did not even try to repeal the rest of the act. i think, frankly, that they want the court to do that, but that's not our job. >> working on -- it seems fairly clear the proper remedy to sever the mandate and leave the rest of the act in place, pre-existing conditions and the rest. congress knows how to write a severability clause and that is not the alanguage they chose here. >> justice kavanaugh, people living in the car, that second sound bite. the first was from john roberts, the chief justice. donald trump learning, again, that these justices do not view themselves the way he viewed them when he appointed them, which is to serve his interests. effectively you heard from the two conservative justices saying

it's not our job to pick apart the affordable care act. if you think you ought to get to rid of the mandate do that, but keep the rest of the law in place. >> roberts, of course, is drawn president's ire repeatedly for breaking what he wants. roberts not a trump appointee. kavanaugh is. i think that, perhaps, is not going to sit particularly well in the white house as we know the president on this issue and many others tried to throw things to the court including election challenges. although it doesn't seem to be at the moment a path for one of his lawsuits to get there. yes. this is another moment when the republican efforts to overturn the aca, affordable care act, seems to be destined to fail. to have the supreme court do the bidding, as justices communicate, of the congress. they don't seem incline d to do that. the central argument the justices were making.

just because the mandate is a probable doesn't mean you describe down the entirety of the law. it's not done yet but seems the affordable care act, obamacare, is on track to be preserved as one of the architects behind that plan, joe biden, heads to assume office this january. >> all right. still ahead, we're going to dig into the "new york times" study that found no fraud in any of the 50 states. plus, former obama administration official jim messina joins us. he helped lead the 2008 presidential transition. "morning joe" is coming right back. ♪

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until the electoral college votes, anyone who's running for office can exhaust concerns

about counting in any court of appropriate jurisdiction. at some point here we'll find out finally who was certified in each of these states. >> the president wasn't defeated by huge numbers. in fact, he may not have been defeated at all. >> senator, you have congratulated vice president biden yet. >> no. >> why not? >> [ inaudible ]. >> senator, did vice president joe biden win the election? >> we don't know yet. >> we don't? >> hasn't been certified. >> we need to finish all the votes. all the votes need to be counted. we need to have all the votes counted so i look forward to the finish, to that being finished. >> the ability for the administration in any way by failure to recognize our win does not change the dynamic at all and what we're able to do. we can get through without the

funding. >> what do you say to the americans that are anxious over the fact that president trump has yet to concede and what that might mean for the country? >> well, i just think it's an embarrassment, quite frankly. the only thing that -- how can i say this tactfully? i think it will not help the president's legacy. >> welcome back to "morning joe." of course, the president doesn't care about his legacy certainly not as defined by people in the media or in washington, d.c., but i want, again, just to put perspective on this. yes, donald trump should have conceded already. we saw the clip, the clips on "comedy central" where republicans were freaking out in 2018 about democrats not

conceding immediately. i know there are even pundits in 2016 in the night that were suggesting that hillary clinton should have conceded faster than she did, but -- but, you know, you look at -- you look at what mitch mcconnell said, and legally, factually it's true. we live in a country where you count all the votes, and the candidate has a chance to exhaust all of his or her legal remedies, and after they do that we have a declared winner. rick scott also, senator from florida, said that, let's count all the votes. i've got absolutely, no problem with that. you have somebody that can really blunt, though, going, we don't know who's going to win yes. yes. roy, we know who's winning this race. >> it's a little too far. a bridge too far. >> we know who's going to win this race.

we know in pennsylvania, and ron johnson and others are just being untruthful when they are saying that they don't know who's going to win the race. so, again, it's -- it might seem like a semantics argument, but, you know, when mitch mcconnell says, we can count all the votes, we can certify the votes, and then, you know, the president can make his decision how he moves forward, willie. that is legally correct, and constitutionally correct and it's kind of like what mike pompeo said. the whole world's watching. they know we have a system. let's count the votes. the president can exhaust his legal remedies, and then we'll move on from there. i think, if you look at joe biden, the guy's been in washington since he was 29 years old. he's been a u.s. senator since he was 29 years old.

he was in the white house for 8 years. he knows more foreign leaders probably than anybody else, any other elected official in washington, d.c., because he's been doing it now the better part of three or four decades. so joe biden will still be ready on day one, whether this takes one week or two weeks or three weeks. >> he will be, and that was his tone yesterday. if you watched that full event, some of the question was, can you believe what's happening? can you believe what's happening? and his tone didn't change at all. his tone was, they're going to count the votes. if donald trump feels he needs to do that, that's fine. you got the distinct sense the biden transition team and president-elect himself are fully moving ahead, talking to world leaders, receiving congratulations from around the world, again, from president erdogan, for example, yesterday of turkey, who donald trump views as a close ally. of course, all the european leaders. the biden team is moving forward, and the world is moving forward, and as i said earlier, the country is moving forward with only a tiny sliver of

americans believing that donald trump actually won this election. so is mitch mcconnell, is roy blount, is senator johnson, are they within their rights to say that the president is, has earned the right to have this recount? sure, or this count of all the votes? sure. but it's certainly not the standard that they've lived by for their lives when their own elections were called by the media, they celebrated in 2016 they congratulated donald trump the next day. are they technically correct? yes. but it's not the standard any of them have used in the past are and they know full well that the more space they give this, the more time it gives donald trump to fan the flames with his base that there is something amiss here, that there is something ste sketchy going on when, in fact, there is not. >> they know the numbers are going to come in. most of those leading republicans, very clearly

described the law, the process, the counting, and so they know -- no i don't know if this makes it actually worse for trump in terms of his ego but they're waiting on him. as the numbers come in it's going to be even worse for trump, because the party -- he's going to be the one who has to admit that he lost the election all over again. and -- i mean, mike pompeo and mitch mcconnell, they might have said a few things that are annoying or a joke that really was bad timing, to say the least, but they just said, you know, we're following the process, the law. you've got to count the votes, and we will do what must be done when the time comes, and the time will come. >> and again going back to pompeo. the secretary said, was very careful to say the whole world is watching. the subtext is nobody's going to steal an election. everybody knows what's going on here.

nobody expected donald trump to go quietly into that dark night. who among us, who among world leaders said, mike pompeo, or joe biden are talking to every day, who believed that donald trump would lose and be gracious about it? >> right. >> and do what is required of presidents to do so this country can function effectively in these transitions? nobody expected donald trump to do that. so let's -- let's move on understanding that, and do the best job that we can do moving forward, and mike barnicle, again, joe biden has been in the senate since he got elected at 29. he has been meeting with world leaders now for over 40 years. he was in the white house for 8 years. he knows where the bathrooms are. he knows, you know, where -- he knows how that place runs,

because he was there for almost a decade as vice president of the united states. is this perfect? no, it's not perfect, but has joe biden been through a hell of a lot worse in his lifetime? yes, he has. and i think that's the tone you saw yesterday, which was, listen, folks. just relax. we're going to get through this regardless. >> yeah. well, i mean, joe biden has the confidence of someone, as you pointed out, someone who does know where the bathrooms are, and luckily for the united states of america going forward, most of the people -- i would say all of the people around joe biden right now, within the transition team are unlike the people who were there four years ago from the trump campaign. they had no experience in government. the people around joe biden have in-depth experience in government, but still, joe, we

are at a point now where what is going on on the opposite side of the aisle, most of the republican leadership, most republicans in the house and senate, it's both sad, petty, depressing, but now it verges on the dangerous, because now is the point in time when the president-elect of the united states, joe biden, ought to have access to the pdb, the presidential daily briefing. the people in the transition team ought to have access to the various departments to coordinate with their peers in the various departments, in order to get the government up and running. that is not happening, and the occurrences in the defense department, are particularly troubling within the biden transition team, i would think, because you have a level of incompetence at head of the defense department in all that stands between, who knows, with the people unclear as to what their duties are, unable to do them. the only thing holding up the

defense department right now of the five-star generals and the four-star jerngenerals, i assume a bit concerned with the civilians they have to report to. >> and, willie, we did learn yesterday that the civilians that are moving in on these final days of the trump administration are woefully ill-equipped to protect this country. they are -- they are party hacks, trump hacks, at the very best. and the fact that they're going in to the d.o.d. to be the civilians running that are concerning. the same thing with the intel briefings. there's a reason why we make it seamless during transitions. presidential transitions. we make it seamless so there are no surprises for the incoming president of the united states. so while joe biden does know his way around the white house and does know world leaders, it really does, at some point, become a real national security issue that, that -- that donald trump is going to do whatever he

can to make sure that joe biden is flying blind when he becomes president of the united states, as far as world intel goes. but, you know, i understand that from what i hear mitch mcconnell's only concerned about the georgia elections right now, and how -- how does abandoning donald trump, while he's still freaking out about losing, how does that impact him with the base, i wonder what mitch mcconnell, and the other republicans, are thinking this morning about what happens when a republican becomes president of the united states again? you know, this is the way i found -- it was always so stunned at the short-sightedness in washington, d.c. people always acted with the other side in office as if they were never going to be in the white house again. so they acted abhorrently, and i always reminded people, you

don't own the presidency. you can only rent it. and sometimes you get to rent it for four years. sometimes you get to rent it for eight years, but joe biden, if these republicans are right and he's only going to be a one-term president, we're going to be here again very soon. four years from now. and if a republican wins, is this really how they want the incoming republican president treated? i mean, of course, we know the answer to that. the answer to that is, no. it's time for him to grow up and it's time for him to tell the president of the united states to grow up, and start planning his 2024 campaign, because nothing he's doing now is good for him or good for the party or good for the country. >> yeah. the politics of retribution is not good for the country when it's one side making up for the

perceived wrongs of the last. saw it again in the supreme court confirmation process this time around, back and forth and eventually the ball comes back into your court and you have to go back to the rules you established before. and democrats would not behave, if joe biden loses and a republican wins after his first term, you would hope the politics of retribution could stop there but i guess we'll have to see. the 19th msnbc contributor erin haines and ceo of the messina group jim messina served as white house deputy chief of staff to president obama and ran his 2012 re-election campaign. a.p.'s jonathan lemire still with us as well. talking a allegations of election fraud. election officials in states across the country report to the "new york times," no evidence of widespread voter fraud. the "times" reached out to top election officials in every state to ask whether they suspected or had evidence of

illegal voting. heard back from 45 states and none -- none -- reported any major voting issues. four other states where they didn't hear back from the top official, the paper spoke with other statewide officials or found public comments from secretaries of state. it found none of those reported any major voting issues. that's all 50 states. meanwhile, according to the "wall street journal," a team of international observers invited by the trump administration issued a preliminary report that praised state and local officials for efforts to facilitate voting during the pandemic and found no evidence of the pervasive fraud that president trump has insisted caused his loss to president-elect joe biden. so, jim messina, if you read through this exhaustive piece from the "new york times," you have secretaries of state, not just democrats, but republicans in places like ohio and kansas saying this is conspiracy theory stuff. some mythology around elections

that swings elections one way or the other. it doesn't happen historically, it's not happening now. from all 50 states. so what's your view as someone who's been through a more traditional transition, what's your view of where we are right now and how the biden transition team is handling it? >> well, i think the transition team's doing exactly what it should do, keeping its eye on the ball, not taking the beat. it is incredibly important to reassure the american public and the international community right now that we have an administration coming in that has its hand on the till and that understands very clearly what it needs to do. but let's be honest. this is not helpful to anyone, willie, as you said, ran the personnel transition in 2008, and right now the problem is, when you start doing background checks, we need to start working with the fbi to look into these people that might be senior white house officials and cabinet members. you know, in 2008 we started getting daily economic briefings from the bush team, and it was then that we started having a

huge economic problem and literally i remember one day they called us in chicago and said, if the bush and obama administrations don't together reassure the markets we might not have the credit markets open. and we worked hand in hand with the bush team. the bush team could not have been any better to us. could not have been any better of a partner in helping us build our new administration. that's a -- >> right now, jim -- i'm sorry. jim was breaking up. we'll get back to jim, and, of course, underline the fact that what he was saying before his audio broke up that the obama administration said repeatedly that the bush administration worked with them as closely as possible and it was a smooth and seamless transition and made a big difference in starting the economic recovery. erin, it's interesting. there's, a reuters poll out

yesterday surveying how americans felt about the election process and overwhelming the majority of americans told reuters that they believed that joe biden was the president of the united states, only a small amount actually thought there were any concerns, which actually public sentiment lines up with that "new york times" reporting where 79% believe that biden won and only 3% believe donald trump won. >> it is interesting. isn't it, joe? i mean, and happy veterans day to everybody, by the way. listen, it is very curious that suddenly, you know, the president and that campaign are so concerned about voter suppression now that his voters, in his mind, are the face of voter suppression. where was that energy for the black and brown folks who were under the threat of voter suppression in this election? where was he trying to protect

the vote and trying to protect the ballot box going into november 3rd? he was accusing them of possibly voting illegally and casting ballots and rigging this election so that he would lose. so you know, the claim that his supporters who frankly are overwhelmingly white and are typically breezing through precincts to cast their ballots were somehow disenfranchised in this process is very interesting indeed. i would also say, i think that probably is the next story. talking to voters, this sportsmanship is about both teams. right? while the president has not yet conceded defeat in this election sounds like majority of americans accepted the results of this election, and that includes the, you know, 70 million-plus republicans that voted for donald trump and understand that he did not win, you know, despite their support of him. so i think that it is important to know that they have accepted

the results, that they are willing to move forward, and i think that that goes a long way to, you know, what joe biden wanted to do in his campaign, which was to bring the country together on the other side of this election, but, you know, he called his campaign a battle for the soul of america and apparently this election was only the first part of that battle. >> only the first part of the battle and jonathan lemire, why don't you get us up to date this hour? you talked a little about it last hour. hearing reports more and more people inside the white house understand, this is over. they're just trying to figure out a way to move the president towards the exits. what can you tell us with your reporting about where the white house officials are? >> well, those efforts are ongoing, but they're rather slow. there is no much of a sense, an appetite, among the president's top advise those in the cabinet, in the west wing or informal outside advisers he consults with on

phone every day to really push the president out just now. underscore, that's a dangerous situation. this is a president largely abandoning governing as the coronavirus pandemic surging throughout the country right now and we haven't seen him in days. not since thursday. we will today. he's expected to go on this veterans day to arlington national cemetery with the first lady to pay his respects but it's not billed as a setting he will talk to reporters or field any sort of questions. so americans will see their president, but we may not have an opportunity to talk to him about his ongoing legal challenges which seem very fruitless. republicans are enabling him to see this through at least for a little while. but seems like no appetite from senate majority leader mcconnell or others to push him out. there are growing voices with the white house to try to move the particular ed to some sort of conclusion. they don't expect him to formally concede, not his style, but they want limb to keep an

eye on what might be next for him. that he has mused seriously about running in 2024 again or at least keeping that option open. to stoke those rumors, to keep his relevancy, to perhaps want to play kingmaker or perhaps to suggest he will push forward with a campaign in order to perhaps keep some possible investigations at bay. some of his inner circle watching nervously what new york state might do and, of course, the president himself is eager to try to, to leave office, to make some money. to try to monetize this as his businesses have taken such a hit over these last four years. bottom line is, joe, right now there is not a concerted effort to push the president to the door. they are going to let him play this out at least for a while longer, and though joe biden certainly has talked preaching confidence saying it won't matter, there are worries how this could impact the transition and the nation going forward. >> well, yeah. there are dangers for sure, and

i also think president trump's silence is very telling in many ways, and even on twitter it's kind of random conspiracy theories here and there. but not much. jim messina, back to you on how biden plays this. so far out there every day. pretty much dead serious, focused on policies and the coronavirus. not very focused on donald trump. is there anything you think he should be doing moving forward? >> no. i think he's doing exactly what he should be doing, mika. right now the only leader we have. as jonathan said, trump has seeded the playing field, spending time tweeting and not running country so the country is looking to its new commander in chief to reassure them it's going to be okay, we're going to focus on the task ahead, the coronavirus and the economy, and that's exactly what vice president, or president-elect biden is doing, and right now he's the only one doing it.

>> all right. jim messina, thank you very much, and still ahead on "morning joe," president trump may have lost the election, but the republican party still appears to be very much in his control. the "new york times" jeremy peters has been talking with gop senators about trump's failure to concede and joins us next with his new reporting. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ it's still warm. ♪ thanks, alice says hi. for some of us, our daily journey is a short one. save 50% when you pay per mile with allstate. pay less, when you drive less. you've never been in better hands. allstate.

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after defense secretary mark esper was fired by president trump by tweet, more trump loyalists are set to take positions at the pentagon today after several officials resigned after esper's firing. the shake-up has left democrats concerned about national security as president-elect joe biden prepares his transition to

the white house. for instance, retired army general anthony tata will take on the role of undersecretary for policy. president trump had nominated him for the job earlier this year, but withdrew his name over bipartisan concerns. back in 2018, he called president obama a "terrorist leader" on twitter and claimed that the iranian nuclear deal came through because of the "obama roots" and attempt to help iranians and the greater islamic state crush israel. tata has since apologized for those remarks. replacing jen stewart, chief of staff to the defense secretary, is national security council member kash patel. counsel member for devin nunes

and attemptedals to discredit, and ezra cohen wattnik, a close ally of national security adviser mike the flynn according to politico caused waves when he worked on the national security council especially with his views regarding the cia. think about the timing of this with just, what, 70, 60-something days left? joining us now, "new york times" reporter jeremy peters and former senior adviser for the house oversight committee kurt bardella, a seniored a visor to the lincoln project. >> jeremy, you have reported that mitch mcconnell is going to continue humoring donald trump along with other republicans humoring donald trump so long as he thinks it's necessary to help in those two special elections in georgia, because the last

thing mcconnell wants is for republicans in georgia to think that washington republicans abandoned the president. tell us about it. >> well, i think it's pretty simple if you look at mitch mcconnell's record in everything he's done with his power. it has been all about preserving republicans senate majority and the last thing that republicans want right now is a deflated base in georgia. thinking that the republicans in washington aren't fighting hard enough for president trump. and it's really just a nakedly political calculation here. the other aspect is that there's not a lot of feeling inside the senate republican conference that donald trump cares all that much, if at all, about this georgia senate seat. i mean, it doesn't really have anything to do with him. it doesn't have anything to do with his legacy and especially if georgia is one of those places that ends up voting against him in a presidential

race, you can imagine the president is going to feel very bitter, and not going to want to help out at all, or go back there and campaign. so part of what this is, is signaling among republicans, coming straight from the top, mcconnell, that, mr. president, we have your back, and i think that more than anything else shows a sign that this republican party is very much still within this president's grip, and it will be for some time, because the republicans really just are not able at the moment to untangle themselves from the man, and this movement that is very likely to dictate their political future for years to come absent some other kind of leader coming along. >> right. and as you point out, the libs has become a lucrative industry, not only in the industry but for republican candidates to raise a

lot of money. >> hmm. >> so whether it's bad for america, whether it hurts america's national security, whether it makes the transition a bit more dangerous, whether it makes things more difficult for joe biden when he becomes commander-in-chief, well, that's right now taking second place o to mitch mcconnell, and the republican party strategy of "owning the libs" to see what they can get out of it over the next 20 or 30 days, and, i guess, america's national security be damned. but owning the libs was very effective, a very effective campaigning strategy in 2020. if you look at the house races. we finally get verification that the democrats are, in fact, going to be the majority party in the house of representatives, but, you know, this was one of the most shocking, i think, for republicans and democrats alike. i mean, people in kevin

mccarthy's office were talking about the week before, talking about how bad their polling was in the suburbs and they thought they were going to get slaughtered. so this was one of the most surprising outcomes in house races that i've seen since 1998 when republicans were supposed to pick up a bunch of seats and ended up with a bare four-seat majority. what happened? >> well, i mean, it's really something, joe, because leading up to the election the conversation was, well, kevin mccarthy, will he be able to stay republican leader? expecting such a sdamp rouse performance disastrous performance and now in the conference as well speaker mccarthy is within reach two years from now in the 2022 mid-terms based how they overperformed. you know, so, again, this reminds me so much of what the atmosphere was like when we had the transition from w. to obama and then two years later, house

republicans took back the majority, and effectively legislatively ended the obama presidency by taking control of congress, and they never looked back, and i expect to see a repeat of that the way things are going right now, that republicans in congress are going to focus solely on doing everything they can to make the biden white house miserable, to use the levers of power they have to drain every measure the biden administration puts out there in the hopes that it puts them in a position to take back majority in 2022. this is such a hyper politicized environment. it's actually worse for biden, frankly, than it was for obama. least when obama was in office he had john boehner, wanted to make deals. paul ryan considered an establishment at the time. not a turn to trumpism we're seeing now. people like jim jordan now power brokers in the republican conference were considered the fringe back when obama was president and now he's won of the leaders of the republican party in the house. so it's such a challenging

environment, and i think republicans right now feel optimistic about their chances to take back the house and all the while democrats right now are busy shooting at each other. you have the aoc squad going off against moderates like abigail spangler and speaker pelosi trying to stay above the fray. if democrats spend this time fighting each other they are going to lose the house in 2022. >> errin hayes, let me ask you, seeing mitch mcconnell fire up the base and not declare joe biden the winner. part of his logic, anyway. seen calling for resignation of secretary of state, a republican. he's said he's not going to do that. georgia's lieutenant governor yesterday also a republican said, yeah. there hasn't been any fraud in this election. and yet they persist. so what are the stakes as we look at the candidates there,

jon ossoff and reference rafael warnock that polls are very close here, obviously. a first ajc poll yesterday, it's close. the stakes, talk about it in terms of republicans, but for democrats. goodness, if they win those two races it changes everything for president-elect biden. >> absolutely, willie. the stakes could not be higher in georgia. listen, i'm from atlanta. atlanta is used to runoffs. they have runoffs usually every four years in the mayor's race, right? it's the rest of the state that is going to have to stay energizeded. i think both sides now that georgia is enjoying its newfound swagger as a battleground state, will be looking, looking to make a statement as all eyes turn towards the peach state over the next several weeks. listen, you know, the reality is that president trump was the second highest vote-getter in american history. 70 million-plus votes, and a lot of those votes came down to georgia, which was a state that

was very close even though, you know, certainly it appears that joe biden did win georgia, and that state did flip blue, but, you know, so many of the voters i spoke to including the 55% of women, even more than in 2016, that supported president trump said, you know, yeah, i wasn't okay with his rhetoric. maub i didn't, i wish he wouldn't have tweeted so much. i didn't like the kinds of things he tweeted but did flot say they were not necessarily okay with his policies. that's how you see a mitch mcconnell going back to congress, how you see a lindsey graham, in the senate, and smith going back to the senate. you know? susan kalens goicollins going b senate. if that is the case, republican voters are still onboard with the policy but not the tone and behavior apparently leaving the white house with president trump, loeffler and collins could be re-elected but there's a lot of democratic energy.

stacy ay stacey abrams continues as in the past several years. seeing a lot of money coming into georgia, if not volunteers. although folks encouraged, outsiders who can't pronounce decd decekalb, do other things when u can't say ponceteleon. if the president isn't coming down who will, who will are the surrogates for the republican candidates to really keep them energized headed into january 5th? holidays are coming up. people will be focused on other things. you know, headed into the rest, the end of the year. >> all right. mike barnicle, jump in. >> jeremy, you know, a lengthy piece, you spoke to several

republicans around the country. let me ask you, in speaking to them, whether off the record or on the record in your reporting, did you get a sense of the barometer, the reality barometer of, do they actually know when we stand's in elk toral terms that joe biden is, indeed, the president-elect of the united states? or are they so deeply entrenched in trumpism that they cannot see that? >> no. it's the former. they understand it quite well that donald trump is not going back to the white house, unless something dramatic happens in these lawsuits, they uncover something that just doesn't appear to be there. i didn't talk to anybody who thinks that trump is going to be re-elected. i did talk to a lot of folks who realized that that's what their voters think, because you had a conservative political complex, a media industry that for the last five years and even pre-dating that has told them

not to trust elections, not to trust institutions like the main stream media. not to trust the government. and they see this result. they didn't need to be lied to. they probably weren't going to believe it anyway if donald trump wasn't the winner on election night. so that's where the republican base is. and where republican politicians are, is making sure that they do a delicate enough dance around that where they can say things like mitch mcconnell has, mr. president, you have every right to pursue these legal avenues. it's well within, you know, your right as an american citizen to do that, which is perfectly true, and then they avoid having to comment on the propriety of it and the unprecedented nature of this assault on the american electoral system. >> jeremy peters, kurt bardella

and errin haines, thank you all very much. coming up, the official report on the 9/11 terror attacks had something to say about delaying presidential transitions. we'll dig into the national security concerns of the president's refusal to accept defeat. "morning joe" is back in a moment. orning joe" is back in a moment. cell phone repair. did you know liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? just get a quote at libertymutual.com. really? i'll check that out. oh yeah. i think i might get a quote.

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process was delayed by the general services administration was in 2000 due to the florida recount. the 9/11 commission identified the abbreviated transition time as a contributing factor to the u.s. being unprepared for the attack. the 9/11 report included in its recommendations since a catastrophic attack could occur with little or no notice, we should minimize as much as possible the disruption of national security policymaking during the change of

administrations by accelerating the process for national security appointments. we think the process could be improved significantly so transitions can work more effectively and allow new officials to assume their new responsibilities as quickly as possible. the outgoing administration should provide the president-elect as soon as possible after election day with a classified, compartmented list that catalogs specific operational threats to national security. major military or covert operations and pending decisions on the possible use of force. and, willie, just keep in mind, not only that holding back on allowing a transition to begin but changing key jobs in state and the pentagon? >> yeah. easy specially at the pentagon. leadership effectively decapitated there as of now. turn to the armed forces chrissy

houlahan of pennsylvania, an air force veteran one of only four service women currently serving in the house. congresswoman, it's great to have you here. thank you for your service always, but especially on this veterans day and we want to talk specifically about veterans in a moment, but as someone who sits on armed services and foreign affairs, what is your level of concern what mika talked us through that this transition isn't being carried out as traditionally it has been and the biden team may not be receiving the briefings as he enters office? >> i think that mika and the report summed it up pretty well in terms how i feel about this as a veteran and a member of the armed services and foreign affairs committee. this potential exposure of our national security about rat is is -- apparatus at this transitional period is very, very worrisome and exactly, frankly, the kind of thing active duty members brought up to me, veterans brought up to

me, exactly the reasons they wanted to see a transition of power from the trump administration to the biden administration, because they really felt as though, and i do as well, we are playing in fire in a lot of ways continually playing a shell game of who's in what seat? and that's very, very worrisome. i would like to say i'm surprised by the firing of secretary esper, in fact this is a scenario many of our colleagues, myself included, talked about for months and months leading up to this election. >> some people who will say, congresswoman, well, it's just for about 68, 69 more days. how much damp couage could they? what's your response to people put in really important seats with really important access to classified information and intelligence? >> well, i would ask people who may be come from other sector maybe the civilian sector or the education sector to put their brains what it means to take the head of an organization.

literally decapitate an organization. it's a dangerous move without very evident kind of transitional planning and doesn't seem as though there's evident transitional planning and even if there is that would be temporary we know because the biden administration would move forward with their choices. this is at best an unnecessarily musical chairs effort and as worst as we talked about, an incredible vulnerability to our national security. >> what pressure, congresswoman, can you and others put on an organization like the gsa, for example, to free up that money and push forward this transition so at the very least despite who's in power right now at the department of defense the biden campaign, the biden transition, excuse me, can get moving here to have an orderly transition? >> it's funny you should ask that question, because my team and i just yesterday were working on what levers we have to pressure the gsa to do the right thing here. and the reality is the gsa is not beholden to the president to go ahead and push the levers to

release the funding to allow people access to skiffs and classified information and briefings. those are the things they are allowed to do without permission from this administration and those are the kinds of things we as a congress can do. so those are some of the things that we can do in the congress. >> let's hope that moves forward. i want to talk to you about veterans day. you grew up on naval bases as i understand it. your grandparents are buried at arlington national cemetery. what is in front of us right now with veterans? so much of the last four years have been consumed by the daily scandal and controversies around president trump that i think in some ways we have lost sights of the struggles that some of our veterans are going through. you have not though. you just put forth a bill that confronts the problems of veteran suicide, which remains front and center. what should we be thinking about on this veterans day?

>> i was raised that your anniversary shouldn't be celebrated but you should do it every day of the year. of course, we should take a pause to honor our veterans and service members, but we should also be doing that every single day with our actions. so in congress, even though this presidency has been distracting, we have been able to move forward on these issues, as you talked about, the issues of veteran suicide, went to the president's desk for signature, i started and helped start the service women's caucus. there are very, very few members of congress who have served full stop, but fewer who are women. but we comprise about 20% of the military right now and growing. and so those are the -- we can start working on making sure we are taking care of service people, women or men, and those are the kinds of things we should be doing every day in the congress and every day in our lives. >> amen to that. congressman mike barnicle has a question four. mike.

>> congresswoman, first of all, thank you for your service. we all appreciate it. not just on this day, but sevev day. there are 96 members of congress in both the house and the senate who are veterans of one form or another. could you talk about the special skill set that you acquire once having served in the military in terms of knowing how to command, knowing how to take commands, just the skill set that separates you at some point from civilians and how it's so valuable to moving forward for our country? >> it's a really good question, and i think that we are at sort of a low point in the congress with the number of members of congress who have that background and skill set. you have that sill set of not only being able to lead but to follow, to work together towards a common mission, to put party aside for all things for country, all things for mission, and i think that you see that in the congress with things like a

caucus that was started this cycle by myself and a couple of other members, bipartisan called the four country caucus where we get together, ten democrats and ten republicans, who have served, and that's about all we have in common in a lot of ways. we are trying to find a way together to find common ground to be able to work towards things we can all agree on regardless of our ideology, and that i think is unique to service next. we are working on things like national service. but i think it's also a skill set that women have. i am heartened to see there are more women, including republican women, in the congress now. >> thank you for all you have given the country and thank you for your leadership on this country, never taking your eye off the ball. we celebrate veterans day with you. congressman chrissy houlahan. thank you. she also flipped her pennsylvania seat it a democrat in 2018 and held on to it again last week. >> there we go. and still ahead, it was previously thought that wearing

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after a moment of posing for photographers, it was in the white house to continue what has been a day of transition business for the president-elect. the president pledged personally to carter he would do everything needed to make the transition smooth. >> that could not have been a

better demonstration of unity and friendship and goodwill than has been shown to peby pretty ford since the election. >> with the president grinning broadly, he escorted the reagans back outside, saying, we are very grad to have you here. >> i must say the president was most gracious, most helpful and has gone out to be completely helpful in the transition. >> when george bush walked down to welcome bill clinton to the white house they were ready to focus on the future, not the pain of their bitterly fought campaign. they spent twice as much time together as planned, including an hour and a half alone in the oval office. clinton was clearly grateful for the tone bush established. >> it was a terrific meeting. the president was very helpful to me. >> the times when a first-term president invited the new president-elect to the white house after losing the election. simpler times.

good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, november 11th. veterans day. along with joe, willie and me we have white house reporter for "the associated press" jonathan lamire, msnbc capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early" kasie hunt and politics and journalism professor at morgan state university, politics editor at "the grio" and msnbc political contributor jason johnson with us as well. >> willie, i am a simple country lawyer. >> here we go. >> willie knows this. we tried some cases together in rural alabama. >> i still feel bad for our clients, joe. we are sitting on death row. i feel terrible about it. go ahead. >> stop. >> heart wasn't really in it? >> no. >> i mean, we had to adjourn to see a couple alabama games. anyway, i don't get it. there are some career moves i don't i don't /* understand.

us doing capital cases. i bad career move on our part. us getting involved in that import/export business in turkey. >> what's your point? >> in the early '70s. i don't get it. lizzo's instagram post yesterday, i am not sure what the career move was there. maybe there is something. and what donald trump is doing right now, i don't really -- what's the career move there, because he knows there are no paths left for him. there is no -- i mean, the counts keep going up in georgia, in pennsylvania. he's not going to get a recount worth anything that's going to add up to anything in wisconsin. even scott walker said that. he is not going to get it in michigan. so he is just setting himself up to lose one challenge after another challenge after another challenge, and that if he does want to run again in 2024, just

doesn't help him at all, just being seen as a loser repeatedly in all of these stupid challenges. >> somebody did that with loser.com. >> yeah. i mean, joe biden keeps running up the score as the counts come in from arizona, more votes came in yesterday from the state of georgia, from pennsylvania. some people think the margin in pennsylvania, some people who know, say it could be 100,000 votes in that state. so we are well outside now recount territory, except with the state of georgia. they may announce today if they are going to have a recount. you are right, the more they fight, the worse it seems to get. we have had court cases dismissed in states across the country, vote counts going up. joe biden now winning the popular vote by more than any challenger to a one-term president since fdr in 1932. and if you look at a poll that was out yesterday, i think it tells the story. there is a lot of noise coming from the trump campaign and from some republicans.

here is where the country is. reuters, ips owes poll, 79% of the country believe joe biden won the election. 13% have not yet decided. 5% don't know. and 3, not 30, not 13, 3% of americans believe donald trump won the election. so he is losing in court. he is losing votes with every passing moment, and america, despite what you are hearing from the campaign and the loud noise and all the protests thatter hearing from some republicans, some couching it, others being more vocal about it, the american people know what happened here and joe biden, by the way, and the world are moving forward with the fact that he is president elect. >> everybody is, and kasie hunt, you look at what's happening in georgia. mark meadows' status as majority leader is on the line. mitch mcconnell. if they get this behind them and run tough campaigns, they have got it better than even shot of

picking up both of those seats. right now they are creating a civil war in georgia in the republican party, and those two senators, especially, are just looking stupid chases conspiracy theories that relatively few people believe. so why put your senate seats and, in fact, why put the republican majority at risk? all you're doing is -- i know they are thinking they are whipping up the republican base, but they are doing the same to the democratic base, and, you know, donald trump's not going to be on the ballot when those special elections are run, and republican support drops way off when he is not on the ballot. >> yeah, and that's exactly what we learned from the 2018 results and then the 2020 results. and, joe, the only way i can

explain it is that they are still incredibly scared of tweets from president trump. they are afraid that he will start attacking one or the other of the senators if they don't, you know, tow his line. they are afraid that that will turn off, you know, what republican voters do exist, that will show up to the polls because they like trump. they are afraid of the base. and that's been the narrative all the way along here. and i think when i was reporting going into election night, i think republicans would have been ready to kind of, you know, shuffle president trump towards the exits if this were the outcome. but this puts them right back in the box that they have been in the entire time. the kind of box that makes people like mike pompeo, who, you know, we all, you know, treated as a serious person, get up there and say something that is just simply clearly not the case at all because they are afraid of what president trump will say to his base about them.

i mean, he is still very much in control of where they go on this. to your point, joe, i think in georgia what we learned from joe biden winning georgia really underscores the point that you just made. i mean, it seems obvious to me that the state is changing in a way that reflects all of the problems that president trump has created for republicans, especially in these suburbs, and you also combine that with the get out to vote apparatus that stacey abrams has been building in georgia, and here we are. so i think it's, in many ways, a totally impossible situation for them, but the longer it goes on, the more questions we have and republicans yesterday started raising questions about, hey, we got to get this transition underway. there are national security implications here. we need to get this moving along. >> and the president seems to be depleting some very, very

important intelligence institutions of top people. we will get to that. here are the updates in states where ballots are still being counted and where president trump is mounting legal challenges and claiming fraud. in michigan, in 2016, trump won the state by nearly 11,000 votes. right now biden currently leads there by 148,000 votes. a swing of nearly 159,000 votes. an estimated 18,671 votes from mai remain to be counted there. >> in pennsylvania in 2016, trump won the state by 44,292 votes. right now biden leads by 45,616. that's a swing of nearly 90,000 votes. and the estimated 115,000 estimated -- 115,541 votes remain to be counted there. in arizona, in 2016, trump won

the state by just over 91,000 votes. right now biden leads nearly 13,000 votes, a swing of nearly 104,000 votes. an estimated 51,000 votes remain to be counted there. and in georgia, in 2016 trump won the state by just over 211,000 votes. currently, biden leads there by just over 14,000 votes. a swing of nearly 225,000 votes, an estimated 32,000 votes remain to be counted there. >> jonathan lamire, whether you are talking about wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania or georgia, there are not, the margins are not close enough to justify any recount. there will be no meaningful change in any of those results based on history, and you look at arizona.

arizona has such a tough recount mechanism that you have to get within 200 votes for it to have a possibility of any recount there. and then the campaigns can't ev even ask for it. this is a prt completely blocked out of switching a state that would make a difference in the outcome. he would have to flip, you know, two, three states at this point, and it's just not going to -- talk to any legal expert on the republican or the democratic side. talk to any election official, as "the new york times" did, went across the country, there is just not -- it's over. it's over. unless he can get doc's delorean time machine and go back a couple of months and start the campaign over again, it's over for him. >> good "back to the future"

reference, joe. you are right. successful recounts tend to pick up a few dozen votes, maybe 100 or so at most in terms of changing sides. and that's not necessarily to mean they would break for president trump. joe biden may pick up more votes in a recount. so these margins in these states are entirely too big and these legal challenges seem destined to fail. the white house has had no success, any meaningful success so far in any legal challenge. and even if one state somehow was to turn its result over, he would still be well short. he is either going to be several states he would have to do, and that's simply not going to happen. now the question is, what next? how long do republicans let him play out this game? i talked to some of his advisors who say, well, you know, what's the harm in giving him a few days to come to terms with this, to explore all these legal options? that's what we heard from senate majority leader mcconnell and

others. this is slowing a transition at a time of true coronavirus. the coronavirus pandemic is surging out of control. state by state, setting record cases, number of cases each day. and we have a president who, in the meantime, has largely abandoned his day job. he, himself, has not attended a coronavirus task force briefing in months. his public schedule does not reveal he received an intelligence briefing since october 1st. they haven't read out a foreign leader call in weeks. he is simply not doing, governing the country right now at a time of crisis. we are seeing joe biden try to step into that breach. his campaign offered read-outs of several foreign leader calls yesterday who offered c congratulations to the president-elect. he organized a coronavirus task force, but there is a limit to what he can do. he is not the president. he is not receiving the briefings. there comes a moment, and we may already be there, where president trump's refusal to

cooperate with the transition of the government agencies refusing to authorize the win in allowing the biding teams to enter these government agencies could be putting lives at risk and endangering the entire nation. still ahead, we will go to the biden headquarters in delaware for an update on how the incoming administration is preparing despite the trump team's roadblocks. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ning joe." we'll be right back. - [announcer] welcome to intelligent indoor grilling with the ninja foodi smart xl grill. just pick your protein, select your doneness, and let the grill monitor your food. it also turns into an air fryer. bring outdoor grilling flavors indoors with the grill that grills for you.

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donald trump refusing to concede. most republicans on capitol hill won't publicly admit joe biden is president-elect, but president-elect biden is saying the trump administration's stonewalling will not stop his transition. >> the ability for the administration in any way by failure to recognize our win

does not change the dynamic at all in what we are able to do. we can get through without the funding. >> what do you say to the americans that are anxious over the fact that president trump has yet to concede, and what that might mean for the country? >> well, i just think it's an embarrassment, quite frankly. the only thing that -- how can i say this tactfully? i think it will not help the president's legacy. >> let's go to wilmington, demonstrate, where we find msnbc news correspondent mike memoli who also been covering the biden campaign from the beginning. it appears outwardly the biden campaign and president-elect biden himself just not that concerned about this. they know about their leads in these states. they know about the failures of the trump campaign's legal challenges time and time again, and it seems they think it's a

matter of time, not if, but how president trump will leave office. >> yeah, willie. the president-elect at this point is trying to show he is going to govern the way he campaigned, which is a promising to try to lower the temperature, to de-escalate the political tensions in this country. so at a time when democrats, especially on capitol hill, sounding the alarm about the fact that he has not gotten the opportunity to begin the kind of transition execution that he has been planning for months, biden himself really downplaying that yesterday saying it was not consequential these delays. even the fact that he is not getting the presidential daily brief. i think it's worth stepping back. i spent time over the past year talking to former white house chiefs of staff, to other senior officials involved in multiple transitions, some which didn't end up happening, and they all say that even in ideal circumstances, the presidential transition, the handoff of power

from one administration to another is a pearlous moment for the country. no one knows that better than george w. bush who obviously had a shortened transition because of the contested florida recount, and then saw in the first eight months of his administration one of the greatest terror attacks in american history. and so as he went toward the end of his presidency, he grave direction to his chen chithen c staff, i want you to plan the most seamless transition in presidential history. president obama, obama's team to this day credit george w. bush for that, for just how professional and non-partisan that transition was. in many ways, it created sort of best practices, the gold standard of transition, and those are actually written into law after bush's administration by the very man who is now running joe biden's transition, the former senator here from delaware. and so where we could have seen potentially another seamless transition with a lot of folks very experienced in governing,

we are seeing the trump administration using a technicality here, a bureaucratic technicality, the idea of ascertaining who is the victor to delay that, to withhold it from the president-elect. his team sending all indications that they are trying to proceed, nonetheless. they announced yesterday hundreds of names of individuals who will, when they get the go-ahead, begin to go into federal agencies, take stock of what needs to be done, trying to reassure the country that they are confident they are going to get to this point. but clearly behind the scenes there is some concern, and that's why you even had biden's transition team several days ago talking about the possibility of legal action if there is not any change in this posture in the coming days. >> nbc mike memoli, thank you. >> joe biden is blocked from intelligence briefings, even though he, unlike president trump, actually wants to read them. more on the muddied up transition next on "morning joe." morning joe.

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♪ jason johnson, we heard from world leaders as well yesterday, congratulating some of them again. joe biden on his win. angela merkel, boris johnson, president macron in france, and

notably president erdogan in turkey who has been a friend of president trump and president trump has pointed to as his friend. congratulating joe biden on his win there. i showed you the poll a minute ago, 3% of americans believe that donald trump won this election. so where do you think we are in this process? most people seem to know where it's headed except for donald trump and a handful of republicans in the senate. >> well, i think we are seeing yet another example of the kind of constitutional changes that we would like to see in this country that probably won't happen under biden. one of the things that we have seen from the republicans over the last couple of years, the end of obama and throughout the trump administration, is, oh, maybe there should be a constitutional law about replaces supreme court justices, rules in place about appointments to administration, things we thought were norms that people would follownd be

reasonable about. if somebody doesn't care, it doesn't happen. this transition is showing that as well. the initial reason for having such a long transition from the end of an election to a new administration is because people used to have to move around the country on horseback, right? we didn't have trains. there is no reason to have a 70-day gap between an election and a new administration anymore, and we are seeing where that why that is a problem for the same reason we have seen problems during the trump administration. here's what i think about. at a macro level, yes, there are larger concerns, yes, there is national security concerns, but watching trump manage this transition, it's the same sort of callous disregard for everyday human beings that is sort of defined his entire presidency. people are trying to figure out if they have to move. there are families in california, illinois, there are people being asked to join this administration in different places and they don't know if they can move because they don't know if donald trump is going it leave office. this is the callousness that has always defined his administration. >> and you even look, that's a great point.

you even look on his side, people who have worked for him, people who have put up with a lot of abuse to be on team trump that are sitting in the white house who were told last week, if we catch you looking for another job, we are going to fire you on the spot. everybody that's working in the white house right now is frozen, and the way washington works is, when everybody figures out who the winners are and who the losers are, and they have already figured that out, every company in washington, d.c.'s figured that out. i talked about lockheed and boeing. the defense contractors have figured that out. every other think tank in washington have figured that out. those people inside the white house right now are frozen and can't look for jobs. they know they've lost their jobs. they know they are going to have to find a new job come january the 20th, and as jason said, he

doesn't care. trump doesn't care about other people. >> they know that. >> especially his own. and so they are twisting in the wind when everybody inside the white house knows that he has lost this race and it's time for him to move on if he is going to really come back and try to run again in 2024. now is the time to start that campaign. but not by looking like a sore loser. it's a bad look on anybody. >> coming up, you can't mention the nation's founding without talking about john adams. that part of our week-long conversation about america's first principles next on "morning joe." t on "morning joe." for over 30 years,

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revolution. the most complete, unexpected and remarkable of any in the history of the world.

how few of the human race have ever had an opportunity of choosing a system of government for themselves? and their children? i am not without apprehensions, gentlemen. but the end we have in sight is more than worth all the means. >> that was the scene from the critically acclaimed hbo miniseries john adams, adams was part of the declaration of independence drafting committee, attempts to persuade members of the continental congress to vote in favor of declaring the colonies free from british control. other than that 2008 hbo series, john adams might not get much of a historical look as the likes of washington and jefferson. he was nonetheless instrumental

to the birth of the nation. so this second president who we are focusing on this morning in our week-long conversation with tom ricks and his new book, first principles what america's founders learned from the greeks and romans and how that shaped our country, also with us biographer, historian and journalist richard brook heiser, his book give me liberty, a history of america's exceptional idea. richard is a senior editor for national review. of course, that series inspired by david bucula's wonderful book on john adams. i don't think, tom, they would put the john adams that you discovered in an hbo miniseries. you said he is the odd man out among the first presidents the he lived modestly. that was positive. you said he was quirky,

self-obsessed, anxious and vain. someone said he was great while he spoke of his country, but he was almost as little when he spoke of himself. talk about this man who achieved greatne greatness in spite of many of his personal failings. >> i want to begin by saying that it's particularly timely as i was watching your discussions of the failure of the current president to acknowledge his defeat and to begin a transition. the first president in this country to turn over power peacefully to the opposition was john adams, and that was a great act. now, being john adams, he also didn't show up at the inauguration of thomas jefferson. he left town on the 4:00 a.m. coach to baltimore. he is the most modern of these first four presidents in many ways. he wears his feelings on his

sleeve. he is extraordinarily vain. he constantly thinks he doesn't get enough credit. i suspect because, unlike the other peers in this book, he never really had a mentor. he was so offputting to people. he was soa anxious, so ambition that despite being honest, an intelligent man, nobody ever really wanted to take him under their wing. he is very prickly guy. i think he was also very fortunate that he married a wonderful woman. it was possible to have a crush on a woman who has been dead for 200 years, i have a crush on abigail adams. but i think also that john adams' great failure as president was backing the alien and sedition acts and saying anybody who criticizes me or the government is a traitor and i am going to throw them in jail and he throws a bunch of journalists

in jail really maliciously. so an editor in new york, thomas green leave is going to be indicted but he is killed by smallpox, so they indict his wife, his widow. she falls ill as well, so they indict the printer of the newspaper and went after the opposition newspapers. when jefferson became president he put an end to that nonsense. but it really was a reactionary action by adams. >> he was such a hothead. i remember reading that he heard a battle going over the common area in his own town and was excited. basically, he said i don't care whether we win or lose, i just like the action. it reminds me what you wrote about george washington when he was being attacked for being indecisive, and you stated that

far better to be indecisive and careful than to be decisive and wrong. that, in fact, is what saved the republic. washington at times' indecisiveness when there was no clear way forward. while we are showing these men, you point out george washington was still trying to acquire status in the british army. john adams was calling for revolution. so he really was the first among the four presidents to see where the united states needed to go. >> and as was said, he got the revolutionary ball rolling, especially in new england. and i think that's what his greatness was, is even before the first continental congress of talking about revolution and publicly siding with it saying, yes, i am going to go to the continental congress even when his best friend tried to talk him out of it. he said he would lose and it would be awful for him.

but as a member of congress during the revolution, i have to say though when you read his dom entear and defense, it must have driven washington bananas. adams thought he knew a lot about military affairs, and i have no idea why. maybe richard does, he knows this period better than i ever will. but he constantly is sort of saying, washington's wrong, on strategy. everybody talks about a slow defensive war. that's nuts. we need to have a big battle and win this thing, which is the opposite of the way to win this thing as washington knew. >> and, richard, yesterday -- go ahead, richard. >> i think one reason may be that adams was always hocking washington is although he admires washington, he does admire him all through his life, but there is always a note of envy there, and there is always a fear of the man on horseback,

you know. this is an old theme of small republican politics in the 18th century. and so for all of john adams' admiration for george washington, there is this reaction that he has to the successful military man or to any commander in chief. he'd be hocking anybody in that job, and he does it with washington during the revolution. >> talk about the difference, richard, if you will, between washington and, who tom also looks at, jefferson and madison. this landed virginia gentry and john adams a plain, simple man, who was a schoolteacher, who didn't have -- was the only one

among these founders who didn't own slaves. he chopped his own wood. he and his wife start of endured the harsh new england winters. and he was really, by our description, man of the people, unlike the other founders. >> well, let's not overdue it. john adams was a very successful lawyer before the revolution. that was a good job. that was an elite job. he made a success of himself in the law . if the revolution never happened, he would have had a very nice career. one difference, the great difference, i think, between him and washington, and adams himself recognized it, when he is an old man, he is writing a letter to benjamin rush, an old friend of his, and they are talking about washington, why was washington great, why did everyone admire him, and john adams gives this list of

reasons, which again some of them are admiring, some of them are envious. he says washington is a virginian and in virginia every goose is a swan, you know. that kind of thing. but one of his reasons is that washington possessed the gift of silence. and adams says, i think this is one of the most precious talents. and i think that's very insightful and very impressive coming from adams because adams doesn't have that gift. he lacks the gift of silence. he always wants to be out there. he always wants to be putting h oar in. washington knew when it was not necessary for him to speak, it was necessary for him not to speak. >> what a smart lesson. tom, thinking about our current president and his thin skin and the way he reacts to the media and calls the press the enemy of the people, if you read through

about john adams, as you know, he shared that trait. he didn't like being attacked by newspapers. in fact, he suggested some of them should be jailed and i think some, in fact, were. a little bit like our current president, he could be thin-skinned when it came to criticism. >> that's why this great divergence between trump and adams is so interesting. you're right that there is this attack on anybody who criticized him. newspaper editors, a dozen wound up in jail at that time when there weren't that many newspapers in america. i think there are 160 newspapers in america. the editors are jailed. that's why adams' willingness to turn over power peacefully, to do a transition to jefferson, to go home quietly is so impressive. it must have been very hard for him. we know it was hard for him. he writes later that the people

threw me out. washington was elected twice, and i lost when i ran for re-election. and he carries that bitterness with him all his life. >> you conclude in one of your chapters on adams saying the most remarkable aspect of adams' life is he succeeded in the improbable goal he set to become a great man. america's cicero. could you just briefly explain to people watching the hold that cicero had on john adams' imagination, as well as many of the founders, and how, in fact, it was remarkable that despite his personal limitations at times, personality limitations, adams did will himself to become a great man. >> he did. and to his credit, there was -- this was not ordained, it was

not inevitable. he wants to be the american cicero. who is cicero? cicero is at the middle of the decline of the roman republic. and for people who made this country, that designed it, the revolutionary generation, the decline of the roman republic was the central political story of the world. there weren't a lot of examples as they looked around. how do you make a republic? how do you have a big republic? how do you make it sustainable in they looked to some of the greek city/states and rome especially and the central figure is cicero. and it is remarkable that adams becomes the american cicero. the difference, i would say, is that over the last couple of hundred years cicero's reputation that is declined. nobody pace a lot of attention to him now, whereas because of hbo, paul giamatti, wonderful actor, and david mccullough, i think adams' reputation has

become way inflated and it needs a reconsideration and maybe a demotion. >> now, richard, would you agree with that? >> well, i don't know. look, he is not the star of a musical, okay? but you showed the clip from the hbo series, but he is definitely the star of 1776, which still gets revived a lot by amateur productions as a musical. and that musical is based around john adams. not his presidency, but his great leadership during the early days of the revolution. not a great president, i would say, but a great patriot. an honest man and a devoted man. >> all right. tom ricks, thank you so much. the book is first principles what america's founders learned from the greeks and romans and how that shaped our country.

and tomorrow we are going to continue the week-long series on tom's book with a closer look at our third president, thomas jefferson. richard brookheiser, thank you so much as well. we greatly appreciate you being with us. coming up on this veterans day, someone making a big difference in the lives of veterans and their families. we are back in a moment. oment.o. chop salsas, spoon thick smoothie bowls, even power through dough, and never stall. the ninja foodi power pitcher. rethink what a blender can do. it's made for this guy a veteran who honorably served and it's made for her she's serving now we made it for all branches and all ranks whether they served one tour or made a career of it. we also made usaa for military spouses and their kids usaa is easy to work with and can save you money on auto, home and renters insurance. become a member today. get an insurance quote at usaa.com/quote

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of arlington national cemetery in virginia where lie more than 300,000 casualties and veterans of every american war, from the american revolution right through to iraq and afghanistan. president trump and the first lady will visit arlington today to participate in a national veterans day observance ceremony. arlington national is our nation's most hallowed ground, of course. historic resting place bearing witness to the military's service and sacrifice of men and women in uniform across our history. today america celebrates veterans on this veterans day, a day meant to honor all those who have served us and sacrificed for us in the military. also the anniversary of the armistice that ended world war i in 1818. on a day that focuses on our veterans and their service to the country we welcome the chairman and ceo of the fischer house foundation, ken fischer, the foundation known for its network of 90 comfort homes where families of ill or injured

veterans and service members can stay when a loved one is receiving treatment far from home. ken, good morning. it's great to see you. thank you again this year for all the great work you and your organization do. i just want to put out some numbers for people. i mentioned 90 comfort homes, over 30 years. you've housed 400,000 military families. 9.5 million total days of free lodging. so for people who are not familiar with the fischer house, how does it work exactly? that's no small task to keep 90 facilities up and running all the time. >> willie, thanks for having me. first, let me say that fischer house is a public/private partnership that worked 30 years and shows they can work. the way it works is, that we work with the military and the v.a. and gifted land temporarily. we build a fischer house varying in size and then we gift it back to whichever branch they're going to serve. there are as we said 90, 91 is

coming this month, in huntington, west virginia, and the way we run this foundation has been more or less like a public company. we treat our donors as shareholders and the dividends are the houses and what they've done, which has been fairly significant over 30 years. it's been a real privilege for me to lead this foundation and i would love for my uncle zach who founded this to come back and see what seeds he planted, how they've grown. >> i was going to take you back there, ken. how did this idea originate 30, 31 years ago? where did it come from, what was the immediate you saw? because the need is still there. building another one that opens next month, but there's room for growth here, too. >> yes, there is. it started, as i said, 30 years ago when my uncle zach was made aware of basic yet underappreciated need that families of our wounded, sick and injured servicemen, women

and veterans had no place to stay when their loved one was in the hospital. now, military families make sacrifices and bear burdens the average american has no concept of. even today with the plight of the military family in the light, we still don't really understand, and when a family member is in the hospital under normal circumstances it's dramatic, but imagine a family coming from across the country to a place where their loved one is in the hospital. they don't know where they're going. they don't know where they're going to stay or how they're going to pay for it. so having free lodging available to them through the foundation has been something that's been really important for them, because it removes that stress, but also with the house is a support system that forms, willie. this is a by-product we weren't sure what was going to happen when we put these many families in one house, but the families started to support each other. they started to lean on each other. they shared joy of the good

days, sorrow of the bad days because not every story has a happy ending, but in the end, having this support system makes them better caregivers and ultimately the patient a better patient. >> it's such an important part of the equation. ken, i work with a group called "operation mend" at ucla merld center out in l.a. and they have buddy families. people coming from all over the country, whether flying from upstate new york to l.a. or from arkansas or texas to l.a. and you've got a family, a spouse and children, who need to be looked after and cared for almost as much as the patient does. so what you're doing is so important. and what else do you think our veterans need right now? where else should we be focused on this veterans day as we talked about the congresswoman earlier, the daily churn of news over these last four, five years has been such regletabrettably sometimes veterans issues are

pushed to the back. >> today is the perfect place to start. if there's ever a bipartisan issue it's this -- we are in a divided country, there's no doubt, but if we can't get together on veterans issues, especially now with this pandemic raging and quarantining and isolation, there be veterans at home suffering in silence and their families are are suffering as well, and i think it's up to us to keep this dialogue going to press our public officials, to keep the didialogue going an this in the forefront. too often veterans issues get put out during election time and then get buried, and we have to make sure that these issues stay in the forefront. the veterans suicide rate is unacceptable, and the situation as far as post-traumatic stress and traumatic brain injury is something that will stay with us for a while and affect us for years to come. so it's time today, should be a

perfect starting point for us to keep these issues going, and to make sure that these veterans that are suffering in silence have a method to come forward and receive the treatment that is available, only because there is great treatment available. >> yeah. yeah. that's right. a lot of it is awareness. point out the covid crisis hit veterans particularly hard. focus on the v.a. as well. chairman and ceo of the fisher house foundation. ken fisher, thank you for being here today and thank you for the continued great work you and your team do. good to see you. >> thank you, willie. good to see you. >> and to you as well, ken. in our final moments here, joe, you lived in and represented a military district for a very long time. i know this is an important day to you. what are your final thoughts here? >> well, our final thoughts, and others have said it, it's not enough just that we say the right words, but we live by them as well. i saw time and time again in a district that had more military

retirees than any other district in america promises being made by congress and presidents and promises being broken. i -- i think what we just heard about veterans who are still suffering from wars. we need to take care of them, and we need to thank them for taking part in the noblest of cause of protecting this country, but it's -- but it requires more than just words. it requires actions. >> yeah. all right. that does it for us. thanks so much for being here, and, please, thank a veteran today for the incredible service that they have done for this it great country. stephanie ruhle picks up coverage right now. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is wednesday november 11th, veterans day. what's happening now -- this morning more than