feels so permanent, and this is their answer. kasie? >> okay. cnbc's julianna tatelbaum live from london, thank you very much. always great to have you on the show. and my main thought this morning is that a fleet is a group of ships that sails together. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us this wednesday morning. don't go anywhere, because "morning joe" starts right now. in all these presidential elections, we go through this process. there is a way to deal with disputes. it's called the courts. and the courts in the various states are dealing with whatever disputes there are, whatever evidence may be provided, and we're going to have an orderly transfer from this administration to the next one. what we all say about it is, frankly, irrelevant. all of it will happen right on time and we'll swear in the next administration on january 20th. >> note the use of the word "next" administration,

repeatedly, not a second term of the current administration, the "next" administration. who's that going to be? it could be terry bradshaw. maybe terry bradshaw will be running the next administration? i don't know. i mean, it could be mitt romney? it's probably going to be joe biden. it's okay. mitch, you can say it, the biden administration. it's okay. donald trump can't fire you by tweet. but you know, we are getting to a point -- and i said at the beginning when mitch tweeted out that -- he tweeted out that we were going to go through the process, all the votes needed ton couto be counted, we need to count the legal votes, court challenges. i agree, that's legitimate to say, and willie, that's what we do here in the united states of america.

but at this point, it's a giant giuliani grift. he got laughed out of court yesterday in pennsylvania. something went on in wayne county last night we'll talk about later. >> a lot. >> i mean, just talk about people literally trying to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters, black voters in michigan. they're just -- they're hurting themselves. it's hard to believe, but after all of these years, so many of these people just continue to damage their reputation more by the day, and they're getting routed. and now again, if you want to know how bad things are going, they've now passed their legal proceedings over to the grifter in chief, rudy giuliani, who i don't think had been into a

courtroom since 1992 when he got laughed out of the federal courtroom in philadelphia yesterday. >> yeah, i mean, first of all, republicans are calling this the biden administration in private. some of them are calling joe biden themselves. others are asking their democratic colleagues to pass on their congratulations to joe biden. they know where this is headed, which makes it all the worse that they are doing what they say is to give the president space, to let the legal process play out. but i think as of yesterday, they're 1 for 25 in court, is the trump campaign. got smacked down in the pennsylvania supreme court on the question of election observers. you have the secretary of state, a republican, who president trump endorsed in georgia, who's holding firm, under pressure from those two senators there and from the president. they're going about their recount, which is going to certify again that joe biden won. this is all going very badly. it's very embarrassing. but the president seems to be leaning into it. so, the question to me, joe, is how much longer do republicans

let this go on? how much longer do they let him fire people who are qualified and who are doing a good job? how much more damage will they allow this man to do to the country in his remaining two months, where they finally publicly acknowledge that he's leaving and that joe biden is the president-elect? >> and when do formerly conservative outlets that have devolved into being little more than anti-trump propaganda machines, when do they start saying -- not for the sake of joe biden, but for the sake of america and for the sake of their own ereputations -- this s a spectacle, republicans are making fools of themselves? i've been waiting for the editorial page i've been reading my entire life, the "wall street journal" editorial page, to write something like that. i'd love to see "the national review" do what william f.

buckley would do, what william f. buckley would have done the day after the election, and say, "it's over, mr. president." it's time for that. but i will say, the "wall street journal" this morning took a step in that direction. and the headline is, "rage against the voting machine." this is the lead editorial in the "wall street journal" opinion page. "president trump so far has been unwilling to concede to joe biden, and his latest argument is that voting machines must have been rigged. where's the evidence? strong claims need strong proof, not rumors and innuendo on twitter." and they finish by saying, "if georgia's recount doesn't find big irregularities," which it's not, then these claims should be put to rest. "in the george w. bush years, the conspiratorial left focused

on bibold, a maker of electronic voting machines. it would be a mistake for anyone on the right to go down a similar dead end." and willie, i remember back during the bush years and all the conspiracies raging on the left about george w. bush. it was exhausting. i remember when republicans won, you know, elections, you would hear the next morning, oh, we found these ballots! i mean, it was -- you just -- we, republicans, used to mock conspiracy theorists on the far left for doing the same thing that they are doing now, except, my god, they have a president who is egging them on, who is actually getting in the way of a peaceful transition, which, of course, is one of the cornerstones, one of the foundational elements of this

constitutional republic. we have a peaceful transfer of power and we've seen it happen time and time again. go ahead. we see it from democrats to republicans and republicans to democrats, and if trump and his cronies can't grow up, it is time for formerly conservative thought leaders that used to run formerly conservative news outlets to step up and do the right thing here. >> yeah, i mean, the conspiracy theories are getting more desperate. you have rudy giuliani on television talking about mobsters in philly stealing votes. and then literally in the same sentence, saying, well, that sounds pretty far-fetched, but that's what i'm hearing. that's the legal defense. they're just lobbing conspiracy theories out. but to your point, it's not just republicans giving the president space to go through the legal process. some of them are participating in the charade. lindsey graham is calling the secretary of state in georgia and putting pressure on him

during this recount. he also said he was calling around to other secretaries of state, including the one in arizona. well, that secretary of state quickly put out a tweet yesterday, said i've never spoken to lindsey graham about this, this is false, i haven't talked to him. what really captured the farce, though, is that lindsey graham is calling around to states he doesn't represent, asking them to relook at all their ballots. and then yesterday, going on the floor of the senate and fist-bumping kamala harris when he saw her on the floor during a vote. >> yeah. >> so, there you go. there it is all in one place. he's going through the charade with the president, calling around the country and fist-bumping kamala harris yesterday. >> it's just hard to be shocked at this point, but as joe pointed out -- >> well, because we're not shocked, right? >> we're not. it's the damage that they're doing to the country that you just wonder how far do you need to go with this charade? we're going to dig deeper into all of this. along with joe, willie and me,

we have white house reporter for the "associated press," jonathan lamire, nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early," kasie hunt is with us. she never sleeps. and in a moment, we're going to get to the latest person president trump did fire by tweet, a top elections security official, simply because the official told the truth about how safe and secure the 2020 election was. but first, the story that all the dominant backdrop to all of this -- cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are on the rise in the u.s. as the country continues to suffer from the coronavirus pandemic. it's getting much, much worse. yesterday, the u.s. added over 159,000 coronavirus cases, bringing the overall total to 11.4 million cases. hospitals continue to run out of space and equipment as more than 73,000 people were hospitalized

as of monday, an increase of over 3,000 from the day before. the average u.s. deaths per day has also now reached over 1,100, up from just over 830 two weeks ago. the average pace is expected to climb in the coming days. it is getting so much worse, willie. >> it is. and the white house knows it. nbc news has obtained a copy of the white house coronavirus task force's latest weekly report to states that delivers an assessment of the pandemic's trajectory. the report dated november 15th is jarring. it reads in part, "there is now aggressive, unrelents, expanding, broad community spread across the country, reaching most counties without evidence of improvement, but rather, further deterioration. current mitigation efforts are inadequate and must be increased to flatten the curve to sustain the health system for both covid and non-covid emergencies. heading into thanksgiving," the

report warns," the upcoming holidays can amplify transmission considerably. states should expand all health messaging across all platforms, including sms auto-texting, to warn citizens about the risks of social gatherings, advise people to avoid them, and re-emphasize face coverings and social distancing. specifically, recommend holding an event only with individuals within one's household and emphasize the risk of exposing an elderly person or someone with an underlying condition, if gathering indoors without masks." again, that's the white house coronavirus task force weekly report. let's bring in president of the american medical association, dr. susan bailey, and chief nursing officer for the american nurses association, debbie hatmaker. dr. bailey, let me begin with you. the white house assessment there is pretty stark. it tells the story. what's your assessment of where we are right now? >> things are, indeed, very

grim. doctors are concerned that our hospitals are filling up and that we really need to double down on our basic preventive measures -- wearing masks, washing hands, keeping six feet apart, and avoiding large, indoor gatherings. we have some vaccines and exciting things coming around the bend, but we want to be ready for them when they get here, and so we need to work as hard as we possibly can right now to slow down the number of new cases. >> debbie, we've seen nurses doing interviews, trying to get the word out to show what it really looks like in these icus, what it looks like in a covid unit, many of them being overrun across the country. what can you tell us about what your nurses are seeing there on the front lines? >> well, thank you, willie. and i'm pleased to be here this morning to represent the nation's nurses. we are hearing that things are quite stark, and we're very concerned that this delay in the transition is negatively

impacting that. just this week in north dakota, we heard that some facilities are running critically low on supplies and that nurses are being asked to transition and work in other units for which there hasn't been time for orientation and for adequate preparation or training for that. so, we're concerned about that. and the delay in the transition only impacts that. so, it is time for the trump administration to begin to prepare the biden transition team on those important issues around the stockpile for the necessary critical medical equipment. we're still seeing delays in ppe, inadequate supplies on ppe, and this will only get worse with the delays in the transition. >> so, dr. bailey, before i get to my next question, i'm

wondering if you could develop upon that point the actual impact of not sharing the information. will it cost lives? >> we are very concerned about that. and an example. when shift change occurs in a hospital, doctors, nurses, everyone in the hospital needs to transfer information about their ill patients as quickly as possible and as completely as possible to make sure that nothing falls through the cracks in taking care of that particular patient. well, we're in that situation now on a national level, and the american medical association, the american nurses association and the american hospital association are all asking the trump administration to provide that morning report, that seamless transition, that information that we need to make sure that every patient is taken care of and nothing falls through the cracks. >> so, and dr. bailey, a follow-up.

the folks from the biden coronavirus task force are saying the first thing the president's going to do -- the president-elect joe biden, is invoke the defense production act on things like testing and ppe and supplies. it seems like right now the state of testing is still quite marginal, difficult, not where it should be. it's either inaccurate or there are delays. you can't get immediate responses. sometimes you wait five days, which, of course, makes treating the coronavirus and stopping the spread much more difficult. would you agree that almost the most basic thing one can do right now is uniformly, across the country, wear a mask? >> the ama has recommended that everyone wear a mask for quite some time right now. and yes, there are shortages in supplies of basic testing equipment, of the chemicals that are used. we're doing lots of other tests

in hospitals right now, too, as we come on flu season. a reminder, everybody get your flu shot. and it makes it more difficult, even more to get the test done. and so, there's lots of different tests out there. there's a lot of confusion about which test to run, where to go to get it, how long you're going to get the results back, and we're starting to see an increase in delays in test results because so many more are being done and supplies are short. >> so, dr. hatmaker, let's end this segment. the numbers are grim. infections have gone up. deaths are moving back up again. but let's give our audience some reason to hope that we are actually moving in a positive direction. i saw yesterday in "the new york times" a study, a widespread study talking about how immunity may actually last for, actually, years. they don't know yet. but one of the largest studies showed that.

the viral load seems to be a little less intense in the fall than it was in the spring. and also, of course, therapeutics and just the way -- what you've learned over the past six, seven, eight months. you've learned an awful lot about covid patients when they first come in that you didn't know in early march. what advances have we made? >> so, joe, you have pointed out, we have made advances in treatment. we are seeing lower mortalities, but we are still concerned about the case numbers and the strain that it's putting on our health care providers and our systems. we're very excited about what is just around the corner with vaccinatio vaccinations, but we've also heard in our surveys of nurses that they need additional information and education in order to be adequately prepared

to do the mass vaccinations that are just ahead. and i will say, it's going to be important for the transition team, for the new biden administration to receive the protocols for "operation warp speed" in order to prepare adequately for equitable distribution of those vaccines. nurses and other health care providers will be key in distributing and administering those vaccinations, so we need our politicians to stop politicizing this pandemic and to step up and be role models and to continue and to move ahead with the transition in order to be prepared for vaccinations and to move us past this critical surge in the pandemic. we're wasting time and we're impacting lives the longer this delay continues. >> well, we want to thank you both, president of the american

medical association, dr. susan bailey, and chief nursing officer for the american nurses association, debbie hatmaker. thank you both very much for being on the show this morning. now to the head of the department of homeland security's cybersecurity unit, who feared he would be fired after breaking with the president over the integrity of the election. and yesterday, it happened. president trump tweeted that chris krebs' statement last week calling the election the most secure in american history was, quote, highly inaccurate. "after re -- after repeating false claims about the election, the president then announced that krebs was being terminated as director of the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. a source tells nbc news that krebs found out about it via twitter and that he was upset because he took the work seriously. krebs clashed with the white house over his agency's rumor

control blog designed to combat false claims about election fraud and hacking, many of which the president and his supporters have touted. last night, krebs tweeted, "honored to serve. we did it right. defend today. secure tomorrow." he also retweeted a post from mark hamill, in which the actor says "krebs was fired for refusing to lie." the former chairman of the senate intelligence committee, republican richard burr, tweeted his support of krebs, calling him a dedicated public servant who did a remarkable job during a challenging time. burr commended the, quote, creative and innovative campaign the agency developed to promote cybersecurity and said it should serve as a model for other government agencies. >> so, what we're -- >> thank you, senator burr. i just would like to say -- >> thank you, again, senator burr. >> we should point out. once again. >> thank you so much.

so, jonathan lamire, i've had republican senators and republican election officials and people from the dhs quietly telling me over the last three years, don't listen to what the president says. we're quietly working behind the scenes and we're doing everything we can to make sure that we're going to have a safe and secure election. i even asked them to come on, because this was in the middle of people worrying for 3 1/2 years about the president's words, about the fact that the republican senate wasn't moving on things. but parts of the administration were working aggressively to protect this election. the 2018 election and the 2020 election. and i heard it over and over again. and here's a good example. here we are -- and i'm sure republican senators will say, maybe even mitch will say, hey, this was -- after donald trump

leaves -- this was the most secure election ever and it was the most secure election ever because people like mr. krebs did their job. but in this silly season, the truth-tellers get fired and most republicans are afraid to do what richard burr did and commend a man for doing what? protecting democracy from russian interference. >> his final words in his tweet last night -- krebs -- was #protect2020, which was the department's slogan this entire election. and you're right, joe, there's been an extraordinary amount of scrutiny on this agency since 2016, since the unprecedented russian election interference and the fears that, whether from there or other outside forces, that could happen again in the 2018 midterms, certainly, but most particularly, this year in this presidential election year. and it seems if, for the most

part, that was warded off. this is an agency that both sides of the aisle has commended, said that krebs and his unit had done a terrific job, except, of course, for the president of the united states, who has been the one dealing with and dealing in these baseless conspiracy theories about voter fraud, suggesting the election was rigged, that it was illegitimate, and this is the department of homeland security and this unit in particular has been trying to combat these, frankly, rumors, this spurless and baseless accusations levied from the president and his allies. and this firing was, indeed, widely expected. it was just a matter of when. we've been talking to people close to the president for days who said he had been stewing about this, that this was, frankly, an act of petulance, that it's a score he can settle before heading out the door and that there should be, we were told, we should have our radars up for more in the days ahead. and it will be, as you said, senator burr did condemn this. we'll see if other republicans have the courage to do so again

publicly. very few have broken with the president here, even during this interim period where he is refusing to concede and refusing to cooperate with the transition to joe biden, but this was, indeed, as one person close to the president said last night, who was not in the favor of this firing happening, suggested simply, this is a public servant who was doing his job and this is what he gets, dismissed by tweet. >> crazy. >> you know, willie, willie, there are, sometimes eras come to an end and we don't take note. babe ruth being traded from the red sox to the yankees. you know where i'm going with this. >> i know you too well, yeah. i know where this is going. >> i don't. what are you doing? >> babe ruth being traded from the red sox to the yankees, right? >> it was big, yeah. >> no that was a big one. you know, the signature, the japanese signing, you know, the signature on the "uss missouri," like, we knew that was big, but

we didn't know how it would impact us, for how long. and jonathan lamire stepping away from the silhouettes. it's when you know this election is over. doesn't matter what the president said. doesn't matter what mitch mcconnell says. you know that now that the silhouettes have been taken down, he's getting ready for the real transition, willie. >> he has turned the corner. i know you so well that the first time we took jonathan's shot, before he even started talking, i knew this was coming somewhere down the road. jonathan, what happened to the silhouettes, the nation wonders this morning? >> all good things must come to an end, willie, and this is, indeed, a moment where we all look, we take stock, we reflect, we try to turn the page. 2021 is on the horizon. the election, as noted, is over. and this is my own way of marking it. i will -- fear not -- continue

my endeavors with the silhouettes down the road. but today -- >> wow. >> -- today, this is a new chapter for us all. >> wow. very poignant. >> hey, todd? hey, todd? the silhouette of fifi's chest, the dog, the torso down to the paws? that was a gift, todd. that was a gift. i want that set here. >> even i get that joke. >> "wedding crashers," for those of you following along at home. >> now moving on. >> i'm going to follow mika's instructions to move on. >> that was the most bizarre thing, though, is that lamere had a silhouette of a dog's torso. >> stop. >> cut off right here. >> it was attached -- >> that one i never got. >> sort of decapitated dog. >> mika said to move on, so. kasie, sorry to keep you waiting in the five box, speaking of charades. let's talk about chris krebs, because it wasn't just that democrats thought he was doing a

good job, it was that republicans thought he was doing a good job. mitch mcconnell repeatedly over the last several weeks and months has praised the organization led by chris krebs for preventing foreign interference in the election. last night, ben sasse the republican from nebraska, said, obviously, krebs should not have been fired. he did a good job. are these little chips along the way to getting republicans, as they see these things unfolding, as they see norms being shattered, as they see truth-tellers being fired, truth-tellers who they support as well -- is it nudging them farther along to finally saying out loud what they won't say, that donald trump lost this election? >> you know, willie, i don't know. they, so far, have refused to, and it doesn't -- you know, i had a lot of private conversations where it's very obvious what everybody thinks, which is that joe biden is going to be president, and this is the same pattern that we have been reporting on, frankly, the entirety of the trump administration. this kind of a thing is

particularly damaging, and i think one of the reasons you're seeing these statements is that there is an acknowledgement, at least, that we still need a government that functions at a high level and that chris krebs was not a political actor. he was a competent government professional who did a job that everybody needed him to do. don't forget, all of these senators are, you know, people who need their elections to be secure, and there had been some evidence as well of senate campaigns facing interference or email hacking, et cetera. i mean, they are all relying on him doing his job well. and i do think it's noteworthy that they have stepped out to defend him. but at the same time, the most effective way to, perhaps, put this to an end is more likely to actually come out and say something. and you know, mcconnell -- joe talked about mcconnell at the top of the show -- he said in those remarks yesterday that what they say is irrelevant to

the process in terms of who's going to be president of the united states. i'm not sure that they think that when their opponents talk about things like the green new deal or other things that they want to run their campaign ads on, that they think words are irrelevant. and it's clear from the polling, from what we're seeing online, from the conspiracy theories, that people are listening to what this president says, and there is a leadership vacuum that is not stepping up to oppose what he is saying. so that's kind of where we're at. i don't -- you know, they've been pretty clear that it's going to take the certification of these states -- and we're seeing the trump campaign fight on certification questions -- and then the electoral college actually voting before they really acknowledge what's going on. so, they've got like another, you know, month, month and a half of this. >> oh, dear lord. >> did you say that? okay, thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," new drama surrounding senator lindsey graham and

georgia's vote count. now a witness claims to have heard graham ask -- >> help me! help me! >> -- georgia's secretary of state, not his state -- >> help me with the election! >> -- about tossing out ballots. could that be considered a crime? >> i think it is. >> that discussion is next. and a note -- it's coming! joe's new book, "saving freedom: truman, the cold war, and the fight for western civilization" is coming out this tuesday, november 24th. you can preorder it now. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ning joe." we'll be right back. - [announcer] meet the ninja foodi air fry oven. make family-sized meals fast. and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do things no other oven can, like flip away. the ninja foodi air fry oven, the oven that crisps and flips away. with sweet potato fries. eating a falafel wrap (doorbell rings)

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there's no question it's something i decided that i wanted to go for electrical engineering and you need to go to college for that. if i didn't have internet in the home i would have to give up more time with my kids. which is the main reason i left the military. everybody wants more for their kids, but i feel like with my kids, they measurably get more than i ever got. and i get to do that. i get to provide that for them. some of these ballots were hid yden from the democratic inspectors because they were so bad. they don't want a democrat or a republican to inspect it. imagine that! a couple hundred thousand. so, those must have been the

ones they bought from the mob or something. i'm kidding. i'm kidding. >> but rudy -- >> although there is an allegation of a mobster involved, but i think it's a far-fetched one. >> there is an allegation of a mobster -- [ laughter ] come on! again! and he's getting paid to do this! like -- >> he wants to get paid a lot. >> the giuliani grift. like, we're going to be talking -- >> he wants $20,000 a day, i think. >> we'll talk to michael schmidt about that in a second. but willie, we were talking about todd last block, and i just saw the clip. you notice, important thing that i never noticed until just looked at the clip again during the break was that vince vaughn is accused of trying to -- todd accused vince vaughn of trying to seduce him. >> yeah. >> and he says give me my payment back. vaughn doesn't even try to rebut the spurious claim. he goes right past it! and he said the painting was a gift, todd. >> the painting was a gift. >> i mean, that's -- >> okay, guys?

>> i've got to say -- >> i walked out of this movie. >> i think that may have been -- please, don't ever admit that, okay? don't admit that you didn't watch "the godfather" for 50 years -- >> nope. >> and don't admit that you walked out of "wedding crashers." >> and i never saw "you've got mail." >> is that the apex of vince vaughn's career right there. >> that might have been it. the "dodgeball," "wedding crashers," "anchorman," i think that moment might have been peak vaughn right there, yeah. >> yeah. very good in "dodgeball," but that may have been peak vaughn. maybe that or also, of course, at the start of the gulf war in 2003, he was overseas in europe and they were harassing him, and he was like, marshall plan, ever heard of that, fellas, the marshall plan? that was also a very good vince vaughn moment. >> okay, this is peak embarrassment for the usa, rudy throwing everything at the wall. >> it's peak embarrassment for

rudy and donald trump, but go ahead. >> no, it's just embarrassing -- >> no, no, everybody knows it's a clown show. americans have spoken. but go ahead. yesterday, the pennsylvania supreme court rejected the trump campaign's claim that philadelphia violated state law by not allowing poll watchers to get closer to the counting. in a ruling likely to undermine the federal lawsuit based on the same claims, the court found that state law says watchers must be in the room, but it does not set a minimum distance away from the counting, and the court cannot impose one. earlier in the day, rudy giuliani was in a federal pennsylvania court arguing against mail-in voting, generally calling it, quote, dangerous. it was his first court argument in almost 30 years, according to court filings. according to the "washington post," in the courtroom, giuliani, quote, fiddled with his twitter account, forgot which judge he was talking to -- >> it happens. >> -- and stumbled over the

definition of the word opacity. at one point, he attempted to -- >> in fact, he turned around and he said, "there is an opacity crowd in the courthouse right now, not a seat left!" >> at one point, he attempted to needle an opposing lawyer, calling him, "the man who was very angry with me. i forgot his name." oh, my god. he told the district judge that ballots were improperly cured in some counties but not in others and that -- >> but the ham was fine. >> and said only cities, "controlled by democratic machines" had problems, but under questioning by the judge, giuliani said it was not a fraud case. the parties will return to court on thursday. at least 15 election lawsuits have been denied, dismissed, or withdrawn. >> let's bring in "the new york times" reporter and msnbc national security analyst michael schmidt. his latest piece is titled "giuliani is said to seek

$20,000 a day payment for trump legal work." >> wow! wow! >> let's talk about that grift, first of all, michael. giuliani, obviously, in way over his head. but here's donald trump doing what donald trump has always done, and that is, hiring lawyers who are not up to the task at hand, thinking that he's going to save a little bit of money here, save a little bit of money there. you can talk to his lawyers that have left the case. you can talk to people in his campaign. they all say it's a disaster. and since rudy's now in charge, it's going to end badly. but it's a great grift for rudy! he's making a ton of money. >> yeah. i think in the trump story, the question that i always have that i never really get a satisfactory answer to is the why. and this may answer some of the why on giuliani's part. why is he pushing this so hard and why is he one of the few

lawyers in trump's orbit who is willing to do this? if you notice, the names of the other folks that have represented the president in other cases, in the mueller investigation and such, are not attaching themselves to this. this is giuliani show. so, the question is, why is it that giuliani is pushing it so hard? and he's all over the place making all of these specious claims about voter fraud and about things that there's nothing to back up. and who has ginned the president up to this? and this may answer some of that question. giuliani seeking $20,000 a day, dating back to election day for his work. and certainly, there appears to be no end in sight for this and there is a financial incentive for this to go on longer and longer. now, there are other reasons why giuliani and trump may be doing this. look, both of them think they

may have criminal exposure here going forward, if trump were to leave the white house. so, there are other factors here. but as a baseline level, the longer this goes on, the more money rudy giuliani makes. >> and kasie, i know you have a question for michael, but the question, kasie, is, is donald trump going to want to be separated from money that he knows is going to get him nowhere? he knows these lawsuits are going nowhere, and he's got a choice to make today in wisconsin to cough up $7 million or $8 million to have a recount move forward that he knows is not going to be reversed, just like the georgia one's not going to be reversed. so, how much longer is he going to be paying rudy giuliani, who advisers have been complaining for weeks keeps ginning the president up? how much longer is he going to pay for this? and does anybody think he's going to spend $8 million, waste

$8 million on a recount in wisconsin that even scott walker says will not reverse more than a couple of hundred votes? >> well, i think the smart money, joe, is that, no, he's not going to pony up to pay for that, but that's kind of the deadline, the thing that i have been watching to figure out how serious are they really about this. are they willing to pay for a recount? because that is what they would, as you point out, have to do in wisconsin. the person who demands the recount has to pay for it. and it's not cheap. and we know that donald trump, while he makes a lot of claims about what he's doing with his money, he oftentimes is making decisions that are totally different than what he's saying. i mean, charitable contributions are a pretty good example of this. but mike schmidt, i wanted to ask you about the certification question, because that seems to be part of where we're moving here. there was a flap overnight in detroit in wayne county where there was a lot of confusing back-and-forth about whether

they were going to certify vote totals there. the certification seems to be what republicans are waiting for in terms of acknowledging and saying, okay, yes, joe biden has won this election, but there seems to be some evidence that giuliani is now focusing in on that and trying to create problems and raise questions about that to try and -- you know, the conspiracy theorist would say, oh, this is to try to kick the election to the house of representatives, that that, we know, is a very far-fetched scenario. but what do you know about what giuliani's doing on that front and what he's telling the president about that? >> well, it's sort of the next juncture in the story, where you know, as you were saying, the republicans are waiting for it to happen to, you know, they say, finally go along and say that, you know, it looks like joe biden won. i'm sort of just skeptical of that, because we have waited the entire trump story for the norms to sort of just kick in, and i don't -- i'm less convinced that they're just going to kick in here at the end at the most

dramatic part of the story. but giuliani sees that as his next best bet. he doesn't have a lot of great cards to play. but if he can undermine that process and throw anything in the gears of that, that's their only shot going forward. it's clear that these recounts and these claims of voter fraud are not going to move the needle, so that's just simply the next point where they can try and do something, and to try to continue to undermine the result here. but i think that at a broader level, you know, a lot of folks will say, well, this isn't going anywhere and it doesn't mean anything, and i think that's totally true. but at the same time, they're taking the president's base on fox news every night or oan or news max, wherever they're watching, and they're dipping them in the lighter fluid of this voter fraud story for several weeks. and look, i'm not saying that donald trump's base was ever going to, like, accept joe biden

as president or look at things normally, but it will only make things worse as we go forward here in the fact that this notion is being pumped out to them every night i think is something that we are going to be unspooling for many, many, many months, if not longer to come. >> michael schmidt, thank you very much. we move to georgia now, where there are far more questions than answers regarding that phone call between lindsey graham and georgia's republican secretary of state. it turns out, there was a witness to the call, a top election official to secretary brad raffensperger was also on the call and agreed, it sounded like the south carolina senator was suggesting throwing out absentee ballots. >> when i heard this, discussions about absentee ballots and of a potentially, if there was a percentage of signatures that weren't really,

truly matching, is there some point where you get to say, somebody went to a courtroom, could say, let's throw out all these ballots because we have no way of knowing because the ballots are separated? and that was partially what was going on. i could see how senator graham viewed it one way and secretary raffensperger viewed it one way, but our job in this state is to follow the latch and follow the process, and that's what we do. >> when graham was asked about the call yesterday, he said it was ridiculous. he asked georgia officials to throw out ballots. then he said he talked to secretaries of states in arizona and nevada about their elections as well. only, that never happened. both came out and said they never spoke with the senator. eventually -- >> so, lindsey -- >> good lord, this is bad. >> so, lindsey was actually lying to try to cover his tracks after he had been -- >> just stop. >> -- accused by a republican secretary of state of trying to get him to throw out legal ballots. >> eventually, graham revealed

he had actually talked to arizona's governor and hadn't actually spoken to anyone in nevada. >> wow. >> wow, this is even bad for -- >> just lying all around. >> let's bring in national political reporter for nbc news josh lederman, who has been covering this story. josh, what can you add? >> well, there could not be a worse time, mika, for republicans in georgia to be going to war with themselves, with the path to control the senate running right through georgia over the next two months, but that's exactly what seems to be happening here. i spent the last several days in georgia, where the republican secretary of state, brad raffensperger, said that he's been pushed up against a wall by his fellow republicans, making these baseless claims about systemic fraud and problems in the georgia election that just don't exist. it's come from president trump. it's come from both of the republican senators, david perdue and kelly loeffler, and it's come from doug collins, the congressman who's been leading the president's recount effort

there. then came word of this phone call from lindsey graham, who, reminder, is not a senator from georgia. he's from a different state. unclear why he was even calling the secretary of state there. but the secretary of state, a republican who told me he voted straight down and up the ballot for republicans this year and every year, saying he did feel pressure from lindsey graham to try to find as many ways as possible, basically, to get rid of legally cast ballots. now, as you point out, lindsey graham says that's not true. he says, the only thing he was doing here was trying to figure out why they don't have bipartisan teams that review the signature-matching in georgia. but then it turns out, as you point out, that there was this witness to the call who says, yeah, you could interpret it differently, but that it did absolutely go down the path of discussing, let's say that you have a county, perhaps like fulton county in georgia, where you have a lot of votes for someone like joe biden, the president-elect. if you have a high rate of signatures that are coming back

as a mismatch, could you just say, well, there's too much uncertainty here, let's get rid of all of the ballots for that county, which would obviously help president trump? the answer, obviously, is no, you can't do that. a court could potentially do that under some circumstances. but the big question here, mika, is what is this going to do to republican turnout in these two georgia senate races? are republicans going to be turned off by all of this infighting, by this intervention from lindsey graham from out of state, or are they going to hear this constant drum beat that the election can't be trusted in georgia and think, what's even the point? >> well, thank you so much, josh. we really appreciate it. you know, mika, the thing is, first of all, lindsey graham is making this argument, that if your neighbor didn't fill out their ballot correctly, then your ballot should get thrown out. i mean, he's asking to disenfranchise thousands, tens of thousands of votes to try,

again, to help donald trump illegally gain the presidency of the united states, and he's lying repeatedly, lying about the phone call, lying about the purpose of the phone call, lying about calling secretaries of state of arizona,arizona. lying about calling the secretary of state of nevada. >> covering up. >> trying to cover up, many said was a call to the secretary and the secretary that could not believe it, a republican could not believe what he did. it's interesting. the secretary of state also said that donald trump cost himself the state of georgia. if you look at the numbers of the votes, by continuing to lie about mail-in voting. >> what are the chances lindsey graham just did this himself like from the goodness of his heart felt he needed to call the secretary of state of georgia? what are the chances? someone didn't ask him to make that phone call? >> pretty small. the legal angle of all this.

joining us chair of constitutional law at ohio state university and nbc news election law analyst. state attorney for palm beach county joins us once again. good to have you both. >> so, dave, since you're a current prosecutor, let me ask you -- i know you've looked at the statutes in georgia and the federal statutes involving this. if what the republican secretary of state is saying is true, that lindsey graham called and asked him to throw out legal ballots, is that a crime? >> joe it sure smells, but from a prosecutor's standpoint, there's not enough evidence yet to charge him with a crime. the federal law does say it is illegal for someone under color of law to try to deprive another of their constitutional rights, including the right to vote. under the state law of georgia it is a felony punishable of up to tree years in prison to ask

someone to commit election fraud. here, it's a matter of interpretation. you heard the witness. i could see it one way or the other, and prosecutors hate that. gray area gets you reasonable doubt and reasonable gets you an acquittal. that's why we need a fuller investigation to get to the bottom of this. it will have to be the next attorney general to do so. don't count on rudy guiliani. he's con spespicuous. should do this or i'd like you to do this. that's not what we have here. he doesn't seem to have the same compassion for fighting election fraud alleged on his side of the political aisle. >> so, ned, talk about pennsylvania for a moment. we kind of walked through what happened in that supreme courtroom yesterday with rudy guiliani fumbling and stumbling around. what are the implications of that ruling in the pennsylvania supreme court?

will other courts across the country take that into account as they look at the trump campaign's arguments? >> yes, i think so. you know, the issue in the pennsylvania supreme court was about observation. >> right. >> even the dissenting judges there said you do not throw out ballots from valid voters just because there might have been a procedure problem. that's a clear point that everybody is making. that you try to count the vote of the voters who are eligible to vote to cast their votes. in georgia, that was in pennsylvania. if you follow that principle, all of these lawsuits are going to fail, because they are trying to overturn what is evidently the will of the voters in these various states, and the courts are not going to do that. so the lawsuits seem to be going to a dead end, because they're just seeking relief that's inappropriate in an election case like this. >> ned, something that you brought up earlier back when we didn't really know the outcome of pennsylvania, what it would

be. when i think it was alita talked about segregating the ballots, and in the, i believe it was injunctive relief republicans were seeking. separating the ballots. i asked what the impact of that would be. you said, well -- they may rightly make a statement about the supreme court stepping on the state legislature's toes legally, since the state legislature is the one that's supposed to make these rules constitutionally, but you drew the conclusion then there's no way that the supreme court was going to disenfranchise voters and take away their votes for simply following what pennsylvania law was then interpreted as being by the supreme court. that applies, though, i guess, i should say in georgia, in michigan, everywhere. these courts are simply not going to disenfranchise voters, because of political skirmishes.

>> i think that's right, and that's why i mention the dissenting opinion in the pennsylvania case yesterday. you can make reasonable questions about the majority opinions interpretation of pennsylvania law, but in the end of the day i don't think that's going to matter. the key point is i think there's unanimity among judges. the pain point will remain the same. >> have you seen any lawsuits that the trump administration currently has active, that the trump campaign currently has active that you believe has merit and could have impact on the outcome of this race? >> no. not has merit. you know, the thing that concerns me about the pennsylvania suit in federal court, the one that the hearing was yesterday, is what that does to the calendar. my own view based on federal law, the electoral count act governs president's election is

this belongs in state court. not federal court, because of the really tight timetable for resolving these cases. florida back in 2000 kind of are ran out of time to finish the recount, because of this concept of the safe harbor deadline, always five weeks after election day. the hearing yesterday was two weeks after election day. that's, you know, 2/5 of the five wsh we five-week period. that doesn't leave time for the pennsylvania court to do all the things they might need to do. it's a very tight timetable. the federal law says state court should be the principle place for adjudicatie ining any issue involving ballots in an election. that's the principle that should be followed here. >> dave, final thoughts to you. have you seen anything out there from the trump campaign that you think has merit that could

impact the outcome of this race? >> absolutely not. this race was over a while ago, and this whole farce is being perpetuated by people like rudy guiliani who has his own personal motivations. i thought it was interesting that he apparently is trying to get $20,000 a day for his legal services. after three days he would make more than most of my prosecutors make in an entire year and my prosecutors are in court all the time, unlike giuliani who has not been a practicing trial lawyer in about 30 years. that why he keeps losing badly in court. it's one thing to spread conspiracy theories to the public on his maga channels and another thing to say in court, which he's not doing because he knows he'll be sanctioned if he does so. nome keep losing like in the pennsylvania supreme court but keep losing their lawyers because their law firms don't want to be a part of this sinking ship. that should tell you somebody

about their arguments. bottom line, no evidence of widespread fraud. the margin between the two candidates was wide enough amongst several states that will prevent any court, any v canvassing ward from overturning this free and fair election. >> dave used and important word, mika. "sanction." thank you both. greatly appreciate it. it's one thing for giuliani to go in and spout out conspiracy theories but he can't allege fraud as a matter of law. go in and say i'm going to argue this as a matter of law before you, because if the judge finds it to be a frivolous crime, giuliani can be sanctioned. that's why lawyers aren't going into the courtroom offering these outrageous claims for donald trump. it's one thing to say in front of the microphone inside. you go inside the courtroom and say it, you can be sanctioned and actually face repercussions as a lawyer. >> thank you very much.

coming up, breaking news from pfizer about the efficacy of the vaccine they're developing. we'll talk to a member of the biden transition team about that, and much more. we'll be right back. make family-sized meals fast. and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do things no other oven can, like flip away. the ninja foodi air fry oven, the oven that crisps and flips away.

welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday november 18. jonathan lemire and kasie hunt still with us and joining the conversation we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. cases, hospitalizations and deaths on the rise in the u.s. as the country continues to suffer from the coronavirus pandemic. yesterday the u.s. added over 159,000 coronavirus cases. bringing the overall total to 11.4 million cases. hospitals continue to run out of space, and equipment, as more than 73,000 people were hospitalized as of monday, and an increase of over 3,000 people from just the day before. the average u.s. death per day has also now reached over 1,100 a day, up from just under 830

two weeks ago. and the average pace is expected to climb in the coming days. nbc news has obtained a copy of the white house coronavirus task force's latest weekly report to states that be delivers an assessment of the pandemic's trajectory. the report dated november 15th reads in part -- "there is now aggressive, unrelenting, expanding, broad community spread across the country reaching most counties without evidence of improvement, but rather further deterioration. current mitigation are inadequate and must be increased to flatten the curve to sustain the health system from both covid and non-covid emergencies." willie? >> that's the state of affairs. getting breaking news as a vax rooen that is very, very encouraging. pfizer and its german partner

biointech saying its vaccine is 95% effective and submit for regulatory approval to the fda in a matter of days. in a study of more than 41,000 people showing no serious side effects, and with a rate at 95% effective preventing covid-19. let's get more on this with the former head of the agency in charge of vaccine development at the department of health and human services, dr. rick bright, became a whistle-blower about hydroxychloroquine early on and now serves on the coronavirus task force for president-elect joe biden. you're getting this information as it comes across as i am. walk us through the numbers. 95% effective with no serious side effects going for regulatory approve until a patter of days. walk us through it. >> well, good morning, and thanks for having me on. before i get into the

encouraging news i want to remind everyone across america as you wake up and hear the statistics you just mentioned on your show, make sure you wear your mask. we're going to talk about some promising and encouraging updates on the vaccine development and that doesn't mean they'll be available tomorrow. it's critically important you wake up and wear your mask and do everything important to slow the spread of this virus while we work on getting those vaccines out for all americans. now to the good news. it is very encouraging that we heard an update from pfizer that their phase three clinic the study of the vaccine be shows really remarkable effectiveness. over 95% effective. what's really important about their data that there's talking about today is that they show this infection works even older people and even in racial groups that they've broken out to look at the effectiveness in different ethnic or racial backgrounds and also show that

cases where they did see infections or cases of the coronavirus most of those severe cases were seen in people who did not receive the vaccine. they received the prlacebo. very encouraging news from pfizer that they completed their data analysis. remember, we haven't yet seen the data. we've seen their press release, but they are planning to submit that information to the fda expeditiously, so the fda and scientists can review that data critically, to give the fda a recommendation on whether or not to proceed with authorization of the vaccine. >> everyone trying to keep the numbers straight, remember last week pfizer came out said its vaccine was 90% effective. this is is an update after completion of phase three up to 95% effective and moderna last week with its vaccine at 94.5% effective. so, doctor bright, what does the pace look like here?

within a matter of days submitted for approval to the fda. what could that mean in terms of how soon this might be available? >> well, we still have say the of work ahead of us. so the fda has to review the data, host an external advisory board of scientists and clinicians with expertise reviewing the safety and efficacy data, and that will happen, i'm sure, pretty quickly, because i know the fda already set dates aside to be able to review data when they became available. once that is approved, or authorized, by the fda, the cdc will also review that. the advisory committee on immunization practices so they can look at the vaccine and see how it is working in different age groups or populations to be able to weigh in on the recommendations on who should get the vaccine. and then it's really important, because the hard stuff starts. so this is where we remember that a vaccine doesn't save your

life, but vaccination does. remember, that vaccines don't deliver themselves. we need to make sure that we have a complete vaccine campaign rollout. there are very limited doses of this vaccine available right now. so probably 25 million doses or so available. it takes two doses per person to achieve that sufficient immunity and protection from the virus. so we don't have much vaccine to go around. so we're going to have to make some very difficult decisions on who gets the vaccine first. how to identify those individuals and how they know they're one of those priority groups, and then we have to make sure we distribute that vaccine to the health care providers who will deliver the vaccine. this is a vaccine that must be kept at extremely cold temperatures. so there is not a lot of that

freezer space or that freezer technology even available across the united states. especially when you think about an equitable distribution of the vaccine. we might have several of those special freezers in some large communities or large cities, such as new york, but when you move out to rural communities or areas that are traditionally hard to reach with vaccines, they don't have that specialized equipment, and president-elect biden has made it a promise and a commitment that when we roll out the vaccine and the therapeutics, it will be done in an equitable manner making sure we're reaching those people that are hard to reach. so we need to make sure that the vaccine does get to the right people. i want to emphasize that this is why it is absolutely critical that the transition team is able to sit down with the current administration today to be able to discuss the protocols of the trials, be able to discuss the technical aspects of the vaccine

and rollout and distribution campaigns. we have been held at an arm's pace. we have no insight to the plans for this current administration. we do not even have direct access to the data. so the csa delay of the ascertainment of this election is causing significant delays with this critical time point in the data and vaccine availability. >> right. okay. >> dr. bright, quickly, and if they don't cooperate with information, will that, then -- i mean, is it black and white? will they then delay exitable distribution of the vaccine? >> it very likely can. it's not something that is trivial. we need to sit down immediately. as you imagine, we have limited doses now. more doses will become available over the next month or two and a large part of the campaign rollout happens after january 20th. we need to sit down now so

there's no hiccups a smooth process. that no smern left out in the cold when it becomes available because we weren't aware of the plans or didn't have opportunity to make the transition. >> dr. bright, thank you so much. >> thank you so much, doctor. we really -- >> we really neat to get information. >> appreciate it. mike barnicle, you've been in touch with the biden campaign. are they expecting any cooperation anytime soon from the trump campaign? and if not, how are they moving forward at this critical time? >> well, joe, that's a great question, and let's stop and think right now. just for a second. what we just heard from dr. bright. you realize that the biggest story right now in this country isn't the tweets. it's not the court cases. it's not rudy guiliani. it's the damage that has already been done to our country by the inability of the republican party and specifically its

leader, donald j. trump to admit defeat. >> what happens now? what's the biden campaign telling you? are they expecting cooperation anytime soon from the trump campaign? >> yes. yes. they are. i think they have talked to, repeatedly, to people who have left the trump administration under various circumstances, either thrown out, kicked out, fired, dismissed, whatever. so they've talked to a few people who have some knowledge of the logistical change dr. bright just talked about but they need to open the doors to the administration to give them full information so that people in rural north dakota that we were just talking about earlier, get the vaccine equitably. >> yeah. peter baker, bring in "new york times" peter baker. peter, there are aspects of this is just more of the same. the donald trump shock opera. it's donald trump's government by gesture.

as has been said before. doing things that he knows aren't going to have any practical impact. this seems to be, though, the exception. as joe biden said yesterday. people will die. because of a lack of coordination from this white house, the incoming white house. what can you tell us about any -- any cooperation between the two? and what is the biden campaign doing? what is the biden transition team doing right now to prepare for january the 20th, and trying to get vaccines out to as many americans as possible? >> yeah. look, you have plenty of people inside this current government who are ready and willing and able and eager, in fact, to begin cooperating with the incoming government if only they were allowed to. prior to the election, when donald trump was not paying much attention to it, you saw plenty of quiet cooperation on a transition that was going to come up and much had happened, of course, the president

essentially made that impossible to proceed with. think about the consequences here. it's not just that people are going to -- people are dieing right now. 15,000 people or more in america have died since election day, and other than the president coming out trying to take credit for the vaccine last week, you haven't heard him talk about at at all. hasn't met with the task force or told americans, advice what to do to mitigate this current spike. it's because the white house basically gave up on controlling the virus. they told us that. mark meadows told us that in his interview on television before the election. they're not even trying to control the virus putting all bets on the vaccine and therapeutics. that's a long way off still for most americans. most americans will not get the vaccine until spring earliest. a lot to be done between now and then as dr. bright said. wearing a mask is still critical. other measures are still critical but you don't hear the

leader of the country doing anything about it. anhurng hunkered down in the white house railing about stoling election and denying reality his time is almost up and doing nothing to help the next president confront this very, very serious crisis. >> another thing dr. rick bright said the longer trump does not work with the transition the longer it's going to take to get the vaccine out to people so it could go beyond next spring. bring in senior writer of politico, jake sherman. msnbc political contributor, republicans not recognizing that trump lost the election can be seen as political fear for their own hides but also could be seen at costing lives and time. for a vaccine to help this country get back on its feet. does anybody see that on the republican side? >> let me add to what peter said.

he's so right. the administration is not talking about a coronavirus relief package at all. there needs to be money to distribute this vaccine. legislation, laws in place, a mechanism to inoculate our country from this horse virus and this administration, wrote this in "playbook" this morning. is he even president anymore? he's not in public, not on capitol hill, not doing any of the things he needs to do even from a bare bones level. i'm in the capitol every day. i haven't seen a member of the administration in talks with congress with the leadership for days, weeks, since before the election. so it's just a stunning level of kind of just silence. it's like when bars go up on the tv. it's stunning. i don't know if it's ever going to end, and frankly, the president is pushed along by people like lindsey graham, who

offered 15 different excuses for why donald trump might be president. kevin mccarthy said yesterday we don't know the results of the election but allowed it's driving towards the joe biden victory. he's in a bubble, ultimate reality so far removed from -- >> a question seems a little too obvious. is kevin be mccarthy, says he doesn't know who won the presidential election. has he put out any press releases or made any comments about the congressional races being over j? that republicans fared better in congressional races? is he saying that races that he actually likes the i don't ut comes are are completed, but the ones that he doesn't are not completed yet? that he doesn't -- >> garrett haake asked in his press conference we were both at and he said, kind of stumbled around. this is the obvious question. right? he had a better than expected result and willing to accept

that but not willing to accept the presidential race which did not turn in his favor. these people, politicians, are not honest. the republican party its only way out of this, to maintain relevancy, kiss up to donald trump. that's just where they are, and they won't answer these questions honestly. say it with a straight face because they know and kevin mccarthy said this yesterday, joe, donald trump will be very active in our party in the national discourse for years to come whether he's in the white house or not. >> they don't want to make his voters mad stating the obvious and the truth, which is that joe biden is the president-elect. jake, you guys have new polling out just this morning. really interesting interesting. shows the country is coming to grips with coronavirus. a lot of people didn't believe it, listened to donald trump or others saying it was a hoax, would magic lis disappear. didn't have to wear a mask, all businesses open all the time.

as this spreads especially to the heartland of this country new polling showing people are taking it more seriously? >> in almost every respect, willie. the biggest disconnect, we have a lot of polling on this. the biggest disconnect between what republicans on capitol hill are saying and what the country wants on a massive relief package. 66%, that's about as high as it gets in a poll with so many options say coronavirus relief should be at the top of joe biden's agenda, if, when he takes office. i mean, if you look at what mitch mcconnell says, what kevin mccarthy says, they're nowhere near this. 67%, these numbers are not, we don't see these in polls too often and it shows that the country is ready for a new way, according to this polling and it's not the way that republicans on capitol hill have been leading so far. >> peter baker, mike barnicle has a question for you. mike? >> peter baker what do you figure or hear from your sources

about the biden transition team and the level of expertise that they have in trying to deal with this issue about the virus and where it's going, how they're going to get it to different places in the country? what are you hearing from people with the biden campaign about what the lack of access is doing to the progress that they hope to make? >> yeah. either very concerned about that. this is not an easy operation. this is a, literally a military-style operation that requires coordination, requires a lot of thinking and a lot of planning ahead, and the to come in on january 20th at noon and suddenly take this over without any preparation leaves them in one hand tied behind their back to say the least. you have a lot of expertise rushing to join the biden team and eager to help the biden team. especially people frustrated by the trump administration over the last months. public health experts almost given up or wash their hands of an administration that doesn't seem to take it as seriously at

the health experts want them to are excited about an administration that made this a top priority and makes it clear they do trust and do plan to follow the lead advice and people who understand the field, but you're right. waiting 60 more days before they even begin to have access to what's going on inside the government and the planning that's been done is -- is certainly a big concern. i think, to the biden team. no question about it. >> kasie hunt, i would think this would be a legitimate question for republicans in the senate? jump in. >> it always is. and they don't seem to ever necessarily want to answer our questions about it, and, you know, i think john lemire, my question for you. i know you're, behind the scenes covering the white house, talking to these officials all the time. i'm up on the hill, it's clear they're most worried and focused on winning these runoff elections in georgia. that is the reason why we are

seeing -- we knew they would do this for a certain amount of time, but trying to make sure they hang on to power in the senate is really driving the reluctance between now and january 5th when those runoffs happen. we know they don't want to anger a republican base voter and are worried about poking the bear that is donald trump in that regard. what do we know about where the president is on all of that? we know he canceled his thanksgiving trip to mar-a-lago. seems to be bunkering down. you have said earlier on the show that we should anticipate more firings, more potential problems. are republicans going to get what they want from the president in temples of him staying out not hurting their chances in georgia? or does the president care at all about that goal? >> president trump has rarely prioritized the well-being of the republican party. it's all about his own personal political capital and his own ability to hang on to power.

and when he would help republicans in his administration it was for those republicans to then help him in return. we certainly know he has not been shy about criticizing them as well. in terms of georgia it is unclear. i've been talking to his advisers both in the white house and still at the campaign who say, no decision has been made yet whether the president will be involved in these georgia runoffs. to this point he has not shown any interest outside of an occasional tweet. at the moment no plans to campaign there. although the vice president, mike pence, is headed to georgia. the campaigns are certainly eager for him to do so believing that if the president were to show up that could indeed fire up the base, but there is a concern that this utter inaction, this now two weeks of the president more or less abandoning his job to sulk in the white house is maybe hurting them. is going to hurt their voters, depress excitement there. that are not sure this is going to animate them like so many republicans on capitol hill

believe. and peter baker, i wanted to go to you to pick up a thread kasie mentioned. talking earlier today about the firing of christopher krebs. you know, which was widely expected, the homeland security official, who vouched repeatedly that this election was secure and safe, and knocked down a lot of the frankly baseless allegations the president and his allies were making. saying that this election was illegitimate and there was rampant voter fraud when, of course, there isn't evidence of that. what are you hearing in terms of what could be the next shoe to fall? as we discussed, there has been belief that the president will be dismissing others. we saw the change at the pentagon. now we see this. who else should be nervous about their job security? what else do you anticipate coming from this president as he remained 40 just holed up in th white house with no public events on his schedule? >> unless you're a blood relative, you should be nervous about your job in the white

house. benefits of being fired might enhance their credibility with the rest of the world. the president is lashing out at anybody who has not toed the party line, whatever the party line is. doesn't want independent advice or explanation. whether health advice, lawyers, intelligence officials. be whether it be obviously homeland security official chris krebs. obviously, we talked for a long time about chris wray, fbi director and gina haspel. both anger theed president not agreeing with his version of reality. chris wray said before the elexd elex election, no, there's no widespread fraud and didn't back up the president's predictions the election would be rigged. angered the president. he's been on the hot seat since and gina haspel resisted going along with declassification of documents that the trump team wants to make in order to prove their conspiracy theories about

what the obama administration did or didn't do. what you've seen again and again is a pattern with this government. anybody who says something that doesn't please the president finds their job security at risk, and should come as no surprise to anybody. i think we'll see more of it in the next 60 days. >> peter baker and jake sherman, thank you both for your reporting. given the fact that these vaccines are on the horizon, i think most doctors and scientists would believe that it is harmful to the american people for the trump team to hold back information and data. >> they don't care. they just don't care. why are we even saying anything about it? he doesn't care. and republicans on the hill -- don't -- care, that people are dieing. they don't care that america's national security is at risk. >> well, i would suggest this is very frustrating for the doctors and be scientists on the

president's team, because, you know, that is breaking their code. >> the people dieing in hospitals now? >> that's right. >> how about the people waiting for this vaccine? how about the people who desperately want their businesses to get back on track and want people to feel free to get back on airplanes? to get back on trains? to get back on buses? to go back -- get families together. to have thanksgiving and christmas together without the fear of spreading -- about -- about next year and schools? i mean, all of this is being held up, and all of this is not going to be coordinated with the person who will be president of the united states, and what's important to know is it's not a surprise that donald trump just doesn't care, and it's also not a surprise that republicans on capitol hill are putting their own petty, political self-interest ahead of the protection of their constituents

and the health of millions and millions of americans. bring in dr. dave campbell. hey, dr. dave, we had in big news this morning fromvaccine. seems we're starting to hear good news every day about that and also a study yesterday suggesting that, that if you get covid, you may have immunity built up actually in some cases for years. let's start, though, with the vaccines. tell us what's happening, what does it mean? >> well, this is definitely the good news/bad news scenario. the bad news we are all looking at right now is another 60 days before we see the vaccines become available, plus the new administration come into place. so pfizer today has reported that their vaccine has passed through phase three clinical

trial, and is 95% effective. that's better than they told us last week where it was 90%. we have moderna, the second vaccine that has reported their effectivenesses to be at 95%. it's important to remember, joe, that this is, to my calculation, a five-step process, where we are now seeing good news about effectiveness of two vaccines. we will start to see and we're in the middle of step two where we're seeing safety measures look pretty good. that will continue as the vaccine rolls out. they still have to, though, make the vaccine in adequate numbers. at best, we're going to see 40 million vaccine doses available by end of the year, if the approval happens. it's a two-dose vaccine meaning 20 million people may be inoculated by end of the year. then we have to address distribution across the country.

freezers, both of these vaccines need deep freezers. one of them, the one from pfizer harks to be really, really cold and kept really cold. so that's step four. you have to have trucks. you have to have freezers, keep available. but step five is the biggest concern i have. we know that half of the country are skeptical about vaccines. half of the country have been witnessing this unwillingness with the trump administration and others to accept truth, to accept science and move forward with that. there was a study just came out of new jersey that confirms that. so it's the fifth step, the willingness to have the vaccine for people to let their children be vaccinated. older people often look to their younger, adult family members for advice. that's the linchpin to this whole thing, joe.

we have to have the availability of the vaccine, but we have to have people willing to take it, joe. >> yeah. mike barnicle is with us, dr. dave and has a question. mike? >> dave, this is a two-step process of both vaccines as i understand. the moderna vaccine and the pfizer vaccine. do you know what the waiting list, the time in between the two shots is? and are the shots given by appointment or do we go, or will the people stand in line and wait for the shots? what do we know about this? >> we know a lot so far, mike. the pfizer vaccine has a three-week window between the first dose and the second dose. the moderna vaccine has a four-week window. supposedly these will be free to the american public. i suspect that there's will be some type of a need to have an appointment made. that's not clear to me yet how that will unfold. plus, in the beginning,

remember, this vaccine in limited doses is going to be given to those that are in the high-risk categories or health care workers, frontline workers, first responders, people with underlying health conditions. there are 200 million of those people, mike, in the country. teachers, food workers. we have 330 million people. that's 660 million doses that we need to immunize everybody. that is a stretch. we have to work really, really hard through 2021 to get everyone who is willing to be immunized, immunized with all the steps that we're talking about. >> wow. "morning joe" chief medical correspondent dr. dave campbell, thank you very much. >> and mika, i told you before about, really quick, we got a study that was in the "new york times" that again it's not peer reviewed yet but very extensive study. >> oh, right. >> about people that get covid. we'd heard that maybe, maybe

your immune for three or six months. the study suggests it may be even longer than that. maybe a year or so. let us hope. that would certainly be great news. >> some hopeful news. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll talk to the candidate whose race will play a key role in determining which party controls the senate. georgia democrat jon ossoff is standing by. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. introducing a revolution in the world of pain relief: new advil dual action. advil targets pain at the source.

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georgia is grateful for the doctors, nurses, first responders. for those who sacrifice to keep the lights on, keep us fed, keep us safe, keep us moving. from the teachers who have gone above and beyond. nor the love and support of our

families. everybody in georgia is thankful for everyone who stepped up to get us through this year. and now it's time to step up for them. to reunite our country and end this crisis. i'll work with joe biden to beat the vices, empowering medical experts to implement a national health strategy with free testing and vaccinations. to provide immediate financial relief for working families and small businesses and an infrastructure and jobs programs that will jump-start our economy, and when we get this done, next year it's thanksgiving with the whole family. to all who have given so much this year, thank you. i'm jon ossoff and i approve this message. >> that was the new campaign ad from georgia senate candidate jon ossoff who joins us now. his runoff election against senator david perdue is on january 5th. jon, i take it some campaign strategy changes now that we know the outcome of the election and you've been looking ahead to

a biden administration. what other changes or strategy shifts are you putting forward right now, and, also, i guess there won't be a debate? >> hey, mika. good morning and thank you for having me. we sort of wanted to give folks a respite from the endless barrage of typical political ads and just take stock of where we are as a state and a country, and where we need to go from here. and as i was sitting with my team talking about what we wanted to say to the people we were just discussing that so many families are having this shared experience right now. of preparing for thanksgiving, but being unable to spend it with the people we love, and we sort of wanted to offer just almost a blessing, a moment of gratitude for everybody who has helped us through this very, very difficult time, even though we're so divided politically, i think we share as a people a sense of gratitude for the

everyday heroes who have made this year bearable, who have helped so many survive, helped so many through this difficult time, and we really have to chart a course out of this crisis. i mean, i heard y'all discussing the continued road blocks that are being put in the way of an orderly transition in washington, when there are hundreds of thousands of lives in the balance and millions of jobs in the balance. it's totally unacceptable and the american people deserve better. >> jon, willie geist. good to have you on the show this morning. you know, all eyes only the state of georgia right now, from mitch mcconnell, up to the president of the united states and democrats, of course, putting all eggs in this basket, as you say, so important for control of the senate. in the first round you lost by about 90,000 votes. you trailed, excuse me, didn't lose, but trailed by 90,000 votes. how do you make up that difference in a runoff? how do you get that much turnout and swing that many votes ins space of less than two months here?

>> willie, thanks for the question. well, it was the closest u.s. senate race in the country. and this is all about turnout, and enthusiasm, and energy, and getting georgians back out to the polls. and we are already running the most ambitious voter registration and get out the vote effort in american history here. and what i'm working so hard to communicate to the people of this state is that in order for this new administration to succeed in fighting this virus, in delivering rapid economic and financial relief to working families and small businesses and investing in economic recovery, biden and harris are going to need to be able to govern, and if we've got two, four, six years of just endless gridlock and obstructionism in washington, they're not going to be able to enact legislation necessaries to get out of this crisis. stakes are high, we're letting people know that and getting out

in the community very, very fast and strong to inform people of the upcoming election with early voting beginning on december 14th for this january 5th duel u.s. senate runoff. >> jonathan lemire is here from the a.p. with a question. jon? >> hi, jon, we just outlined how high the stakes are. and republicans don't know if president trump will play a visible role. travel to georgia to do any campaigning. can you tell us, though, what might be in the works on the other side, for your party. visits perhaps from president-elect joe biden, vice president-elect kamala harris and former first lady michelle obama and past president barack obama, and michelle obama did not make any in-person campaign appearances during the general election? >> yeah.

reverend warnock, democratic candidate in the other senate runoff, remember, everybody, we have two senate runoffs in a single state for senate control here in georgia and reverend warnock and i were campaigning with president obama in the final weeks of the general election. i would welcome, of course, all of those folks to get down here, if the president-elect and the vice president-elect have time, of course, they need to prioritize the transition and in preparing to take charge in a moment like this. love to get them here, president obama and michelle obama if she wants to come down. bottom line, it's about enthusiasm and making sure the people are aware of these upcoming elections. everything we can do to raise awareness and inspire people to get out to the polls, we need to. >> jon ossoff, thank you for being on the show this morning. we'll be watching. >> thank you. go to michigan now. the wayne county board of canvassers unanimously certified

its vote count hours after republicans on the board blocked approval of election results. the board, composed of two democrats and two republicans initially deadlocked after republicans claimed irregularities in the poll books of certain detroit precincts. but the gop members reversed course after a unanimous board agreement to ask the secretary of state to contact an independent audit. two gop poll watchers filed suit earlier in the day with the same audit request after the michigan court of appeals refused their petition to stop certification of the county's vote based on fraud claims. "washington post" reporter robert costa tweeted last night that according to rudy guiliani, the trump campaign knows that he can't catch up, want to try to force it to the house. let's bring in professor at

princeton university eddie glaude junior and nbc news and msnbc contributor shawna thomas, and i mean, shawna, in wayne county specifically, what is happening here? because it could be defined as basically trying to disenfranchise a great deal of black voters? >> well, i think also we can be somewhat heartened by people spoke out. people complained. people, citizens. >> yeah. >> actually showed up and said, i don't agree with this, and this is problematic, and i don't want my vote to be disenfranchised, and, you know, the republicans on that committee, on that, you know, 2-2, democrats and republicans evenly split committee, backed down and certified the election and certified at least their results that no one seems to actually really be questioning. so that's positive. i think the other thing, and, it's that it points to the need for being part of your

community's politics. it points to the need for at that level, the city, the county level, understanding how your government works, and being willing to stand up and -- and make them accountable for it. now, i did a little bit of research. that small group is appointed by a larger group, but if that larger group comes back and appoints the same two republicans, or even the same two democrats, should-of-you should be aware of that, be able to stand up and say, i don't agree with this. so i think the system is still kind of falling apart and we're sort of watching it fall apart or watching maybe statistic people try to destroy the system right now, but if the public wants to take action, it is possible to take action on a lower level and speak up, and we saw that, and i think that is at the very least a good thing. >> eddie glaude, your thoughts? >> well, first i want to echo

what shawna said, the democratic process when it's enacted by everyday ordinary people can be effective. but we have to describe that effort over and against what we're seeing. this is what's happening in plain and open sight. right? that is, that we have actors who are deliberately trying to undermine the democratic process. we have the republican party in michigan. we have republican appointees on this board. we have giuliani and the president explicitly making efforts to destabilize, to delegitimate, right, our democratic process and we need to understand that for what it is. that these people noble t only not care about the 15,000-plus who died since the election, they don't care about democracy. black and brown voters disproportionately impacted in wayne county because of it. >> speaking of people speaking out, republicans in arizona appear to be split over the

integrity of the election there. the state republican party wants a judge to postpone certifying election results from maricopa county until an audit can be done, but the republican chairman mayor coier copyoieyore ta county says there is no dysfunction. tile to dial back the rhetoric, rumors and the false claims. biden flipped maricopa county winning more than 50% of the vote. the county wants to certify results by end of the week. a judge is expected to hear arguments today in the arizona republican party's lawsuit to delay that certification. mike barnicle? >> mika, you know, i'd like to ask shawna and eddie to join in

on this, and it's not really a question. it's a thought that i have, and i'm wondering if i'm alone here. this morning. thinking it. it is this -- the president of the united states quit. quit on his job. we have a daily danger to our democracy that i have never witnessed in my life prior to this. every single day there's a cauldron of vitriol and damage poured out of the white house, and the republican party about our country, and about the process we call voting. so i'm wondering if either of you, both of you, all of you, you know, have thought about the ramifications of this, and do you share my concern that somewhere out in this big, sprawling land of ours, somewhere there is the potential danger of a deranged individual taking things just a little too

seriously and this could end up really, really terribly bad? shawna? >> i mean, speaking personally, and not based on reporting. >> yeah. >> yeah. i'm worried about that. i was worried about that before the election. i was worried about what would happen in the days after the election, no matter which side actually won. i mean, this is the reason why, you know, states had the national guard on standby. this is the reason why the downtown d.c., where i used to live, was boarded up. this is the reason why fifth avenue was boarded up. people were actually worried about that level of unrest as well as specifically could this start something related to race, especially in the streets? and i -- i don't think that fear is unique to me as a black person. i don't think that fear would be unique to anyone. i don't think that fear is

necessarily unique to many white people out th, but that is exactly what i am worried about each day. that is exactly why, you know, you stockpile toilet paper hous worried will i be able to leave my home if someone does take this idea that the democratic process did not get carried out correctly too far. >> so, eddie, i'll let you tackle that larger question. on the michigan story, donald trump is losing michigan by 146,000 votes. it's not close. so the idea that these two canvassers, these two republican canvassers wanted to throw out the votes of wayne county, of detroit, is outrageous, but we should point to the fact that people are stepping up. people are answering the challenge. people are protecting our democracy at the heights of homeland security when chris krebs said this is the most secure election in the history of our country. he knew he would get fire for

that. indeed, he was fired yesterday, but he told the truth. not just the democratic canvassers but the people of wayne county on the call who heard this news rose up and the republicans had to go back and, in fact, certify that election. so, yes, we have problems, but there are also a lot of people in this country answering the bell to preserve the democracy. >> absolutely, willie, but we need to understand, at least this is my view, that it's not really about the success of these efforts that is the matter. one out of 25 defeats, as you mentioned earlier, it's not really about them winning. it's about deepening the doubt among that hardcore 20 to 30, 40%. deepening this sense of illegitimacy among his hard-core supporters, those folks who will not extend legitimacy to a biden administration and enter into the democratic process once trump transitions out.

so it's not about winning in this moment. it's about kind of calsfying that doubt such that it can begin to have the effect moving forward on our democracy. so i think we need to be mindful of what work it's doing even as they lose. and in terms of mike's question, in terms of the white house, the madness has turned on himself. the madness is now interior. it's eating him up. and we have seen the potential for violence as sean a said. we know what happened in kenosha. we know that these folks are walking around with ar-15s, that they plotted to kidnap the governor of michigan. we understand these forces have been activated, many have been mainstreamed. so with the doubt that i just talked about and with this willingness to act on the sense of illegitimacy that they attribute to the federal government we are on a knife's edge. we need to understand as you recognize the power of every day

ordinary folk to defend our democracy in the face of it all. >> eddie and shawna, thank you for being on this morning. and we've been following the overseas response to the transfer of power in america, including the reaction in ireland. in fact, nbc news chief global correspondent bill neely caught up with one of the president-elect joe biden's own relatives there. >> he has walked on the streets here. you know, we know him as well, which is great, to talk to and stuff like that. we spent a little bit of time with him, were in the white house with him. he is one of our own. he is from here. >> and bill neely joins us live from dublin with more on this. bill. >> reporter: yeah, good morning, mika. there are plenty of billboards and posters of joe biden all over the west of ireland, that's

his ancestral home where his great, great, great grand father immigrated to the united states in the 19th century. the celebrations are not over, neither is the sense of anticipation of joe biden, the president, someone who will be not just a voice for ireland in the white house, but who will reset relations between the united states and europe. and also i think, mika, here a sense of impatience for the end of the trump administration and the beginning of what the irish foreign minister calls a much warmer, much closer relationship based on partnership and friendship, not just friction. i spoke to the foreign minister this morning, also spoke to ireland's prime minister. here's what they had to say about joe biden. >> a celebration. an emotional level, the fact that a man who is proud of his irish hair stage, great, great, great-grandparents coming from ireland, the most irish of

presidents since john f. kennedy. there is that sense one of our own has made it to the top in the united states. i think that we will see a warmer and closer relationship that's based on partnership rather than friction across the atlantic coming from a biden presidency, and i can assure you that the european union and political leaders here will reciprocate to ensure that that relationship improves dramatically and quickly so that we can work together to solve problems together. >> reporter: and not just here in dublin, but in london, in paris, and in berlin everyone anticipating that on january 20th, or shortly afterwards, the united states will rejoin the paris climate accord, rejoin the world health organization, and in the words of the irish foreign minister, will begin speaking the kind of language the world wants to hear, in particular standing up for democracy. the values of democracy in an increasingly authoritarian world. so, mika, it's not just

culturally or in terms of his heritage and irish roots that ireland is looking forward to a biden presidency. it's those very, very well geopolitical issues. >> nbc's bill neely. thank you so much. and still ahead, mitch mcconnell inches closer towards acknowledging joe biden's election win, but he still is parsing his words. plus, the president fires a top election security official for telling the truth about election security. "morning joe" is coming right back. ning joe" is coming right back oh humans.

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to get a $500 prepaid card when you upgrade. switch today. in all of these presidential elections we go through this process. there is a way to deal with disputes. it's called the courts, and the courts and the various states are dealing with whatever disputes there are, whatever evidence may be provided, and we are going to have an orderly transfer from this administration to the next one.

what we all say about it, frankly, is irrelevant. all tv will happen right on time and we will swear in the next administration on january 20th. >> note the use of the word "next administration," not a second term, but the current administration, the next administration. who is that going to be? >> at least -- >> it could be terry bradshaw. maybe he will be running the next administration. i don't know. i mean, could be mitt romney. it's probably going to be joe biden. it's okay, mitch. you can say it. the biden administration. it's okay. donald trump can't fire you by tweet. but, you know, we are getting to a point, and i said at the beginning when mitch tweeted out that -- he tweeted out we were

going through the process, the votes need to be counted, do the court challenges, i agreed. that's totally fine to say, that's legitimate to say. willie, that's what we do here in the united states of america. but at this point it's a giant giuliani grift. he got laved out of court yesterday in pennsylvania. something went to in wayne county last night. we will talk about that later. >> a lot. >> i mean, just talk about people literally trying to disenfranchise hundreds of thousan thousands of voters, black voters, in michigan. they are just, they are hurting themselves. it's hard to believe, but after all of these years, so many of these people just continue to damage their reputation more by the day.

they are getting routed. and now again, if you want to know how bad things are going, they've now passed their legal proceedings over to the grifter in chief, rudy giuliani, who i don't think had been into a courtroom since 1992 when he got laughed out of the federal courtroom in philadelphia yesterday. >> yeah, i mean, first of all, republicans are calling this the biden administration in private. some of them are calling joe biden themselves. others are asking their democratic colleagues to pass on congratulations to joe biden. they know where this is headed which makes it all the worse that they are doing what they say is to give the president space, let the legal process play out. but i think as of yesterday they are 1 for 25 in court is the trump campaign. smacked down in the pennsylvania supreme court on the question of election observers. you have the secretary of state, a republican, who president trump endorsed in georgia, who

is holding firm under pressure from the two senators there and from the president. they are going about their recount, which is going to certify again that joe biden won. this is all going very badly. the president seems to be leaning into it. the question, joe, is how much longer do republicans let this go on? how much longer do they let him fire people who are qualified and doing a good job? how much more damage will they allow this man to do the country in his remaining two months where they finally publicly acknowledge that he is leaving and that joe biden is the president-elect? >> and when do formerly conservative outlets that have devolved to being i wilittle mo than trump propaganda machines, when do they start saying, not for the sake of joe biden, but for the sake of america and for the sake of their own reputations, this is a spectacle. republicans are making fools of

themselves. i have been waiting for the editorial page i have been reading my entire life, the "wall street journal" editorial page to write something like that. i would love to see the national review do what william f. buckley would have done the day after the election and say it's over, mr. president. it's time for that. i will say "the wall street journal" this morning took a step in that direction, and the headline is "rage against the voting machine." this is the lead editorial in "the wall street journal" opinion page. president trump so far has been unwilling to concede to joe biden and the latest argument is the voting machines must have been rigged. where is the evidence? strong claims need strong proof. not rumors and innuendo on twitter.

and they finish by saying, if georgia's recount doesn't find big irregularities, these claims should be put to rest. in the george w. bush years the conspiratorial left focused on die bold, ache matter of electronic voting machines. it would be a mistake for anyone on the right to go down a similar dead end. willie, i remember back during duri the bush years and all the conspiracies raging on the left about george w. bush. it was exhausting. i remember when republicans won, you know, elections. you would hear the next morning, oh, we found these ballots. i mean, it was -- you just -- we republicans used to mock conspiracy theorists on the far left for doing the same thing that they are doing now, except, my god, they have a president

who is egging them on, who is actually getting in the way of a peaceful transition, which, of course, is one of the cornerstones, one of the foundational elements of this constitutional republic we have. the peaceful transfer of power. we have seen it happen time and time again. saw it happen -- go ahead. if trump and his cronies can't grow up, it is time for formerly conservative thought leaders that used to run formerly conservative news outlets to step up and do the right thing here. >> yeah, i mean, the conspiracy theories are getting more desperate. you have rudy giuliani on television talking about mobsters in philly stealing votes and then literally in the same sentence saying that sounds

farfetched but that's what i'm hearing. that's the littegal offense. they are lobbing conspiracy theories out. some of them are participating in the charade. lindsey graham is calling the secretary of state in georgia and putting pressure on him during this recount. he also said he was calling around to other secretaries of state, including the one in arizona. well, that secretary of state quickly put out a tweet yesterday said i have never spoken to lindsey graham about this. this is false. i haven't talked to him. what captured the farce is lindsey graham is calling around to states he doesn't represent asking them to look at ballots and yesterday going on the floor of the senate and fist-bumping kamala harris when he saw her on the floor during a vote. there you go. there it is all in one place. he is going through the charade with the president, calling around the country, and fist-bumping kamala harris yesterday. >> it's just hard to be shocked at this point.

>> well, because we are not shocked, right? >> we're not. it's the damage that they are doing to the country that you wonder how far do you need to go with this charade. and it all comes on the backdrop of a surging pandemic. doctors and nurses are overwhelmed and we'll talk to two leading advocates about what front line workers need the most right now. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be ri. ♪ (children laughing) ♪ (music swells) ♪

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yesterday, the u.s. added over 159,000 coronavirus cases bringing the overall total to 11.4 million cases. hospitals continue to run out of space, and equipment, as more than 73,000 people were hospitalized as of monday.

an increase of over 3,000 from the day before. the average u.s. deaths per day has also now reached over 1,100. up from just under 830 two weeks ago. the average spapace is expected climb in the coming days. it is getting so much worse, willie. >> it is, and the white house knows it. nbc news contained a copy of the latest weekly report from the white house to states that delivers an assessment of the pandemic's trajectory. the report dated november 15 is jarring. it reads in part, there is now aggressive unrelenting expanding broad community spread across the country reaching most counties without evidence of improvement, but rather further deterioration. current mitigation efforts are inadequate and must be increased to flatten the curve to sustain the health system for both covid and non-covid emergencies. heading into thanksgiving, the report warns, the upcoming holidays can amplify

transmission considerably. states should continue to expand public health messaging across all media platforms, including sms auto texting to warn citizens about the risks of social gatherings, advise people to avoid them and reemphasize face coverings and social distancing, specifically recommend holding an event only with individuals within one's household and emphasize the risk of exposing an elderly person or someone with an underlying condition if gathering indoors without masks. that's the white house coronavirus task force weekly report. let's bring in president of the american medical association susan bailey, and chief nursing officer for the american nurses association debbie hat maker. dr. bailey, let me begin with you. the white house assessment there is pretty stark. it tells the story. what's your assessment of where we are right now? >> things are indeed very grim. doctors are concerned that our hospitals are filling up and

that we really need to double down on our basic preventative measures. wearing masks, washing hands, keeping six feet apart, and avoiding large indoor gatherings. we have some vaccines, exciting things coming around the bend, but we want to be ready for them when they get here. so we need to work as hard as we possibly can right now to slow down the number of new cases. >> debbie, we have seen nurses doing interviews, trying to get the word out to show what it really looks like in these icus, what it looks like in a covid unit, many overrun across the country. what can you tell us about what your nurses are seeing on the front lines? >> thank you. i am pleased to be here to represent the nation's nurses. we are hearing that things are quite stark and we are very concerned that this delay in the transition is negatively impacting that.

just this week in north dakota, we heard that some facilities are running critically low on supplies and that nurses are being asked to transition and work in other units for which there hasn't been time for orientation and for adequate preparation or training for that. so, we're concerned about that, and the delay in the transition only impacts that. so it is time for the trump administration to begin to prepare the biden transition team on those important issues around the stockpile for the necessary critical medical equipment. we are still seeing delays in ppe, inadequate supplies on ppe, and this will only get worse with the delays in the transition. >> so, dr. bailey, before i get to my next question, i am wondering if you could develop upon that point.

the actual impact of not sharing the information, will it cost lives? >> we are very concerned about that, and an example. when shift change occurs in a hospital, doctors, nurses, everyone in the hospital needs to transfer information about their ill patients as quickly as possible and as completely as possible to make sure that nothing falls through the cracks in taking care of that particular patient. well, we are in that situation now on a national level, and the american medical association, the american nurses association and the american hospital association are all asking the trump administration to provide that morning report, that seamless transition, that information that we need to make sure that every patient is taken care of and nothing falls through the cracks. >> so, and dr. bailey, a follow-up. the folks from the biden

coronavirus task force are saying the first thing the president's going to do, the president-elect joe biden, is invoke the defense production act on things like testing and ppe and supplies. it seems like right now the state of testing is still quite marginal, difficult, not where it should be. it's either inaccurate or there are delays, you can't get immediate responses, sometimes you wait five days, which, of course, makes treating the coronavirus and stopping the spread much more difficult. would you agree that almost the most basic thing one can do right now is uniformly across the country wear a mask? >> the ama has recommended that everyone wear a mask for quite some time right now. and, yes, there are shortages in supplies, of basic testing equipment, of the chemicals that are used. we are doing lots of other tests in hospitals right now, too, as

we come on flu season. reminder, everybody get your flu shot. and that makes it more difficult even more to get the test done. and so there is lots of different tests out there. there is a lot of confusion about which test to run, where to go to get it, how long you are going to get the results back, and we are starting to see an increase in delays in test results because so many more are being done and supplies are short. >> we want to thank you both. president of the american medical association, susan bailey, and chief nursing officer for the american nurses association, debbie hat maker. thank you for being on the show this morning. coming up, donald trump fires the head of election cybersecurity after that official debunked the president's conspiracy theories. the disturbing yet totally predictable development next on "morning joe." xt on "morning joe."

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president over the integrity of the election, and yesterday it happened. president trump tweeted that chris krebs' statement last week calling the election the most secure in american history was, quote, highly inaccurate. after repeating false claims about the election, the president then announced that krebs was being terminated as director of the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. a source tells nbc news that krebs found out about it via twitter and that he was upset because he took the work seriously. krebs clashed with the white house over his agency rumor control blog designed to combat false claims about election fraud and hacking. many of which the president and his supporters have touted. last night krebs tweeted, honored to serve, we did it right. defend today. secure tomorrow. he also re-tweeted a post from

mark hamill in which the actor says krebs was fired for refusing to lie. the former chairman of the senate intelligence committee, republican richard burr, tweeted his support of krebs calling him a dedicated public servant who did a remarkable job during a challenging time. he commended the creative and innovative campaign the agency developed to promote cybersecurity and said it should serve as a model for other government agencies. >> so, what we are -- >> thank you, senator bur. i would like to say. >> thank you, senator burr. >> once again. >> yeah, thank you so much. so, jonathan lemire, i have had republican senators and republican election officials and people from the dhs quietly telling me over the last three years, don't listen to what the president says. we're quietly working behind the

scenes and we are doing everything we can to make sure that we're going to have a safe and secure election. i even asked them to come on, because this was in the middle of people worrying for 3 1/2 years about the president's words, about the fact that the republican senate wasn't moving on things, but parts of the administration were working aggressively to protect this election. the 2018 election and the 2020 election. and i heard it over and over again, and here's a good example. here we are, and i am sure republican senators will say, maybe even mitch will say, hey, after donald trump leaves, this was the most secure election ever and the most secure election ever because people like mr. krebs did their job. but in this silly season, the truth tellers get fired and most republicans are afraid to do what richard burr did and commend a man for doing what?

protecting democracy from russian interference. >> his final words in his tweet last night, krebs, was protect 2020, which was the department's slogan. this entire election. you're right, joe. there has been an extraordinary amount of scrutiny on this agency since 2016, since the unprecedented russian election interference and the fears that whether from there or other outside force that is could happen in the 2018 midterm, this year in this presidential election year. it seems as if that was warded off. this is an agency that both sides of the aisle have commended, said that krebs and his unit did a terrific job except, of course, for the president of the united states who has been the one dealing with and dealing in these baseless conspiracy theories about voter fraud, about the -- suggesting the election was

rigged, that it was illegitimate. . this is the department of homeland security trying to combat these, frankly, rumors, this baseless accusations. this was widely expected. it was just a matter of when. we have been talking to the people close to the president saying he had been stewing about this. was an act of pech u lens, it's a score he can settle before het heading out the door. we were told we should have our radars up for more in the days ahead. and it will be, as you said, senator burr did condemn this. we will see if other republicans have the courage to do so again publicly. very few have broken with the president here even during this interim period where he is refusing to concede and refusing to cooperate with the transition to joe biden. but this was, indeed, as one person close to the president said last night who was not in

the favor of this firing happen suggested simply this is a public servant doing his job and this is what he gets. dismissed by tweet. >> kasie, mitch mcconnell over the last several weeks and months has praised the organization led by chris krebs for preventing foreign interference in the election. last night ben sasse, the republican from nebraska, said obviously krebs should not have been fired. he did a good job. are these little chips along the way to getting republicans as they see these things unfolding, as they see norms being shattered, as they see truth tellers being fired, truth tellers who they support as well, is it nudging them farther along to infinally saying outoutsioutloud that donald trump lost this election? >> willie, i don't know. they so far have refused to and it doesn't -- you know, i have a lot of private conversations where it's very obvious what everybody thinks, which is that joe biden is going to be president, and this is the same

pattern that we have been reporting on, frankly, the entirety of the trump administration. this kind of a thing is particularly damaging, and i think one of the reasons you are seeing these statements is that there is an acknowledgment at least that we still need a government that functions at a high level, and that chris krebs was not a political actor. he was a competent government professional who did a job that everybody needed him to do. don't forget, all of these to senators are people who need their elections to be secure, and there had been some evidence as well of senate campaigns facing interference or email hacking, et cetera. i mean, they are all relying on him doing his job well. and i do think it's noteworthy they have stepped out to defend him. at the same time, the most effective way to perhaps put this to an end is more likely to actually come out and say something.

you know, mcconnell, joe talked about mcconnell at the top of the show. he said in those remarks yesterday that what they say is irrelevant to the process in terms of who is going to be president of the united states. i am not sure that they think when their opponents talk about things like the green new deal or other things that they want to run their campaign ads on that they think words are irrelevant. it's clear from the polling, from what we are seeing online, from the conspiracy theories, people are listening to what this president says and there is a leadership vacuum that is not stepping up to oppose what he is saying. so that's kind of where we're at. they have been pretty clear that it's going to take the certification of these states, and we are seeing the trump campaign fight on certification questions and the electoral college actually voting before they really acknowledge what's going on. they have another month, month and a half of this. >> coming up, north dakota is at the center of a surging pandemic. the very latest from that

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public health measures that everyone should be adhering to, not a disjointed one state says one thing, the other state says another thing. we need to respond as a nation, not in a fragmented way. >> but right now it is fragmented as states and cities continue to roll out their own coronavirus restrictions. ohio, maryland, montana, and illinois issued regulations on business hours and crowd sizes statewide. california governor gavin newsom issued a more stringent mask mandate requiring all residents in the state to wear a mask outdoors with limited exceptions. iowa governor kim reynolds imposed a limited mask mandate after pushing back at the policy for months while still insisting that there is science on both

sides. in south dakota, rapid city schools are planning to close and move to virtual learning today. nevada's clark county, which includes las vegas, postponed plans for in-person instruction, opting to continue with remote learning through the end of the year. and in new orleans officials canceled the famous mardi gras parade as the cap on outdoor crowds is limited to 250 people. meanwhile, hospitals across the country are at or over capacity. joining us now, the ceo of west river health services and head in north carolina matthew shahan. matthew, give us the status update on your hospital. >> yeah, good morning. thank you for having me on. our hospital i think has faced like the rest of the rural hospitals in the country. we have what we would normally be dealing with during these

times, but then you add on top the coronavirus pandemic and what it's creating is an unsustainable model for rural health care. you know, from a staffing standpoint we only have so many people we can draw in. and those people are tired. many times they work other jobs. they have farms and ranches at home to take care of. they are burned out already. and that's a concerning thing for us. we don't have a large labor pool and where we are sitting at we have what we have, and they are the best group of doctors, nurses, lab, radiology, and housekeeping we could find. but there are only so many of them. that's my number one concern right now. >> literally running out of doctors and nurses. that's a pretty big concern. what about supplies and space? >> yeah, supplies, i think our state did a great job leading up into this pandemic and has done a good job of delivering those supplies during this time. so we're doing pretty good on supplies, i would say.

space is certainly the issue. we only have so many rooms that are negative pressure where with we can handle these types of patients. if we take them out of that controlled space, we put out the rest of the staff, put them at risk. we deliver babies here. we have to be protective of where we keep the patients because we don't have a large building. we don't have separate floors to house the patients. we have to be restrictive and careful. unfortunately, that means it limits the number of coronavirus patients we can care for. >> matthew, it's willie geist. great to have you on. there is a staggering banner on the bottom of the screen right now i had to look up twice before we came on. it says north dakota records world's highest covid mortality rate. 18.2 deaths per 1 million people. so as you are here right now with a national audience, what do you all need in north dakota, and who do you need it from? >> i think we need to look at each other and realize that what rural has always succeeded in is

taking care of each other. when a farmer goes down, their neighboring farms step up and help them get their crop out of the ground. what we need now is common sense. we need folks to wash their hands. we need them to socially distance. we need them to wear a mask when and where possible. i know it's uncomfortable. i don't like wearing one all the time. how could i look my staff in the eyes if i'm not willing to do a simple thing to protect them and protect their patients. honestly, daily, weekly, they are caring for their neighbors, people they have grown up with their entire lives who are in our covid unit on their death bed. i don't think i would be a very good leader if i did that. >> the governor did issue a statewide mask mandate a few days ago. made sop news last week, and maybe you could help us understand this a little bit better. when the governor said that covid positive health care workers, as long as they are not showing symptoms, can return and work in covid units. that took a lot of people by

surprise. is that okay with you to have covid positive health care workers inside your hospitals? >> you know, as an organization or as the health care world we certainly appreciate that measure being taken, but as this organization, we have chosen to not utilize those staff. if they are covid positive, we want them home and getting better. this is a long-term disease. this is something that is going to be around for a while. we cannot risk having them come into the unit, whether they have it or not. we want them to stay away from the building so we can really limit those touch points where they could pass that on to another co-worker. so while we appreciate it, at this point we haven't been forced into that situation. i hope that is our absolute last measure because i don't want to have to make that cities. >> they were designed to make up for the shortfall in health care workers. matthew, mike barnicle has a

question for you. >> yeah, my question is, in north dakota, given such vast expanse of land and distances between farms and certainly between farms and cities, how do you cope with, how do you handle the fact that there are people who live these enormous distances from treatment facilities who perhaps have covid and perhaps are in danger of dying and you can't reach them wior the degree of difficuy in reaching them is such that i don't know what you do. what do you do? >> that's an incredible question. my hospital system serves 15,000 square miles. we have one hospital and six clinics. our nearest tertiary facilities are over two hours away. we have a very proud community who quite often, when they are sick, it takes them to be really sick before they come to the hospital. it's just education. it's really it becomes the

shortness of breath. when you have certain symptoms, we want you to come in. and it's really hammering that in. we have had a long standing great relationship with the counties that we serve in north dakota and south dakota, and i think that's just the biggest thing. we have to have that trust and we hope that by now we have built that up with them, that we are going to evaluate them. we are going to figure out the best place for them to seek care. maybe that is at home. maybe that's at home with simple measures we can provide to them. when it comes time to get them admitted into the hospital, we hope we have a bed. if we don't, we have partners in the state which we call on. but at times lately they haven't had beds. and when the people that we rely on and the hospitals that they rely on don't have beds, that really becomes a concerning effort. those aren't all covid patients in those beds. people still have strokes. they still have heart attacks. they still have all other issues going on right now. and seemingly more than usual. so really it's just education and it's collaboration between

hospitals, which i can certainly say i have been really proud of my colleagues in the state and the work that we have done in the last few months to build up this network. but it's clearly an unsustainable model. it's growing above what we can handle. >> ceo of west river health services in hediger, north dakota. matthew shahan, thank you for sharing your story. republican senator chuck grassley of iowa has tested positive for coronavirus. the 87-year-old announced yesterday he was under quarantine at home after learning that he had been exposed to someone with the virus. in a statement, grassley said he feels, quote, fine, and will continue to work from home. on monday, he was seen without a mask on the senate floor. the exposure caused drasgrassle h miss his first vote in the chamber since 1993.

the iowa republican is the second oldest lawmaker in the senate. his diagnosis, along with that of 87-year-old congressman don young of alaska, underscores the growing health risks on capitol hill, or what "the new york times" calls a, quote, petri dish of marble and stone. senator rick scott is in quarantine after a possible exposure, and congressman ed perlmutter tested positive yesterday and it's threatening to stall legislative work in washington. the two parties have been bickering over how to handle what could become a mini outbreak in the capital with ongoing debates over testing, mask-wearing and a proxy voting system where members cast votes on behalf of their colleagues. jonathan lemire, i mean, this is again, i mean, the political, you know, right and left on this

is becoming a health issue and they can't even agree on that? >> well, mika, we certainly know there have been a number of coronavirus outbreaks at the white house. now there is growing scrutiny and concern about capitol hill where senator grassley, 87 years old. his absence yesterday snapped a 27-year streak of him not missing a vote. there are concerns about his health considering his age. and growing concern of others in capitol hill who may be exposed. you underscored just now, senator grassley, though he wears masks and has issued statements encouraging iowans to do the same, he has not on the senate floor. very few do. earlier this week he got into heated exchange with a republican colleague over that, encouraging a republican senator to wear a mask, which then drew the ire of senator ted cruz who accused senator brown of showboating because he would wear a mask away from others

still speaking as opposed to senator brown, setting a good kpoof example for public health. we are seeing ramifications in the legislative world, too, as the senate looks and congress looks to perhaps act on what might be president trump -- what will be president trump's final two months in office. even yesterday grassley's absence allowed democrats to defeat trump's pick, judy shelton, for the federal reserve because he and a couple other republicans were out. they were able to torpedo that selection, leaving it in doubt going forward. that is going to be something to watch here in the weeks ahead if there is an outbreak whether more of the legislation would stall. >> wow. up next, how technology is reshaping democracy. keep it right here on "morning joe."

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's 52 past the hour. the ceos of two social media giants, jack dorsey and mark zuckerberg yesterday testified before congress how they moderate the content on their platforms. republican senators such as ted

cruz of texas spent the bulk of their questioning drilling down on the alleged censorship of conservative youths, while democrats focused on the prevention of hate speech. both parties agreed that the platforms have been inconsistent in how they monitor their content and decide on what is excluded when. joining us now, jim steyr, founder and ceo of common sense media, a nonprofit organization dedicated to improving the lives of children and families in the digital age. also he's the editor of the new anthology titled "which side of histo history: how technology is reshaping democracy and our lives" and co-author of one of the essays in the book. start there. shall we? i often take a look at the disinformation and try and u understand why have voters during this election season are

embracing disinformation and always come back to facebook, disappearing ads, information out there out of context and i worry it's had not just a dramatic impact on our democracy, but, perhaps, a prevailing impact. would that be over-saying it? >> no. i think you're exactly right, mika. i mean, it's incredible to see the impact that technology platforms, but particularly facebook and instagram, have had on our democracy and democratic norms and institutions and pretty amazing's we are at a transformational moment as a country i think in whether or not we hold companies like facebook accountable. it's one of the major issues facing the incoming administration. will they have a tech agenda that holds tech companies accountable for things like misinformation and hate speech on their platform? and i think you're going to see a biden administration do that and an incredibly good step forward.

>> talk a lot about section 230. this is willie geist. you would like it repealed and share that with the president of the united states. shorthand, take a step back. what is it section 230, why is it sig kenificant part and why rid of it. >> essentially a get out of jail free card for facebook and other social media platforms giving them blanket, essentially, blanket immunitiability from anything on their platform. has to be changed from a kids and family standpoint or a misinformation, disinformation democracy standpoint. that has to be on the table. you saw in the hears yesterday congresspeeple people on both f the aisle what to re-issue this. facebook and twitter the biggest problem so far. >> how do you go about policing

facebook with a couple billion users. a game of whack-a-mole, defined hate speech, what is it? where do you begin to tackle this problem just with facebook alone? >> number one, rewrite the regulations. first time congress had to step up for the first time in more than 20 years and pass legislation that regulates that. second, we've shamed them. we have a movement, stop hate for profit. basically, it led to an advertising boycott over 1,000 advertisers and a lot of public shaming of the company for the fact they were openly impacting the election by providing disinformation to tens of millions of voters. i think it's both legislation, public shaming and holding the leaders of the companies accountable. absolutely imperative. second, i think you'll see antitrust cases against facebook from state attorneys general in the federal trade commission in the coming weeks and that will also have a big impact on them. we need a full-court press on

the tech industry to make sure that they are on the right side of history. right now mark zuckerberg and facebook are on the wrong side of history and we're paying the price for that. >> mike barnicle is here with a question. >> hi, mike. >> you mentioned correctly the impact facebook and instagram have on our culture, world, voting processes and just mentioned you are part of an effort that has tried to shame facebook for what it has not done. so my question to you is -- what do you do when at the end of the day mark zuckerberg, facebook, sheryl samberg, helps run the organization with zuckerberg, what if he simply do not care what you say about them? >> well i think they don't care that much, or they would have changed their behavior more by now. number one, mike. number two, you have to legislate and regulate this.

we passed major privacy law in california in 2018 and passed a ballot to strengthen that law. there's a chance to do state legislation on some of these issues. end of the day, congress has to get its act together and president biden has to lead an effort to regulate these companies on accountability and they can do that. i predict here on this show that we will have section 230 reform in 2021. and i actually think we'll have antitrust cases against facebook as well. do i think change is on, it's coming. that's a healthy thing. >> founder and ceo of common sense media, jim steyr, working on this a long time. thank you very much. the new book "which side of history: how technology is reshaping democracy and our lives." jonathan lemire, if that prediction comes true, that will change, change social media and i think how people get news

dramatically. >> well, no question of that. we'll see, of course, if the prediction does come true, but you were right, mika. certainly we should note, though, press end of three hours today underscoring the crisis right now with the coronavirus pandemic. and how the president, i'm on my way to the white house now, continues to have no public events scheduled. there are worries -- rumors around him maybe more firings may be eminent. in this moment that calls for leadership, he's not going so, meanwhile, president-elect joe biden we note will be having a roundtable with frontline home workers from his home in wilmington, delaware, as he attempts even without the official transition authorized by the trump administration try to show leadership during this ever-worsening pandemic.

>> getting worse. saw the hospital administrator explain what it looks like inside though covid united nations. the president of the united states spending time tweeting conspiracy from voter election. >> look at map. all bright red. when this pandemic first surged, hot spots around the country that needed to be contained. we're in a different place. it's running rampant, and the president tweets about himself. that does for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is wednesday, november 18th, and we have got a huge show for you this morning. tons of news to get to. so strap in. let's get smarter. we already know that president trump isn't showing much interest in helping the nation address the coronavirus crisis, but now trump may be creating a new problem