mr. meadows, are you looking at voter fraud in states that he won? >> we have a whole team looking at things. so i can't really speak to that. >> he can't really speak to it. white house chief of staff mark meadows after meeting with senate republicans yesterday, brushing off several reporter questions concerning president trump's unfounded allegations of voter fraud. the associated press reports that meadows has encouraged senate republicans to make the most of their remaining time with trump, according to two senators. so the problem is that the biden transition team, joe, is waiting for -- is waiting desperately, actually, for vital information pertaining to the coronavirus. >> well -- >> and people will lose their lives if this information isn't handed over. >> yeah, i mean, 250,000 lives

lost now. that number is going to go up. we have the highest incidence of coronavirus cases ever. this is a disease we didn't know about a year ago, and now a quarter of a million americans are going to be dead. certainly, you know, we're going to be most likely close to 300,000 by the time donald trump leaves office. he has by continuing to sit in his office and do nothing and not allow the transition of power to begin and not to keep the biden administration in to where they are on vaccines, on strategy, he is making sure that history holds him accountable for every last death that we have during this time frame. >> wow. >> you know, and we have been

patient on this show. i mean, i said time and again that mitch mcconnell when he tweeted out everybody had a right to count the votes and they have the right to do the legal challenges and then we move forward, well, we're there. and, you know, willie, this is of course as you know when we get around the campfire, when we get into the ozarks -- by the way, more coastline than the state of california. >> true story. >> true story too. but when we get around that campfire we start talking about a lot of things and you always tell me, joe, tell me that thing about the riptide in pensacola. tell me that story again and of course what i tell, willie, is we learn very young the northwest florida region that when you're on the beaches and the riptide takes you out and

i'm looking at you, alabama, and louisiana tourists. when that riptide starts taking you out, you just go with it. and it just -- it will take you out a while. but you just stay calm, because it's going to take you out until it stops and when it stops you then swim parallel to the beach and then you just swim on in. you all got that? well, that's been, willie, as you said to me last night, when we were at the orphanage, socially distanced, wearing masks, that's what our strategy should be here. we know donald trump will act badly, let them do their thing and when we get to the end of the process, then it's time to start talking. you look yesterday at "the washington post" article by bob

costa, they know and they're admitting now they can't win these legal lawsuits. they're admitting in front of courts there is no fraud as a matter of law. they're admitting there's no way forward in any of these legal challenges. so now, they're moving on and they're going to try to disrupt the electors, doing something that's grossly undemocratic, grossly un-american. and something that will stay with this republican party for years to come. they know it's over and yet they won't do anything about it. willie, we have ridden the riptide long enough. it's time for america to move forward, get out of it, start swimming back toward the shore and get on firm ground. start planning for a peaceful transfer of power, start planning for distributing vaccines. start planning to win this war

on the coronavirus. start having our commander in chief talk to our allies and our adversaries. it is pastime. obama gave trump that advantage. every president has done that in the past. there is no excuse for republicans to not start moving forward now. lives depend on it. and their continued foot dragging is not only wrong, it's unamerican. >> and let's be honest, there was no excuse from the very beginning. i mean, they all knew where this was head, they all saw the vote, but they said let's let this play out. they never did that before. they didn't do it in races they won in the house, we have talked about that. or in the senate, they didn't do it in 2016. they congratulated the winner immediately but we'll stipulate that and say you have a president right now and we should never take this as routine even with this president, a president who in the middle of a pandemic that's raging out of control where we

just crossed 250,000 deaths as you said, who is holed up at the white house, rage tweeting in all caps that an election was stolen from him. how much longer do you let this go on, republicans in the congress? how much longer do you let him do that? how many more people die, how much more space do you give this man? it's time as joe said, and let's go through that reporting in "the washington post" from robert costa that the strategy has now apparently changed from the trump campaign to disqualify votes to disrupting the electoral college. the trump campaign wants to delay the certification long enough to cast doubt on the legitimacy of joe biden's win and to change the process for selecting electors. rudy giuliani wants to pressure officials around the country to stall vote certification, then to have republican lawmakers

choose electors to disrupt the electoral college meeting next month and that president trump is in favor of this plan. but "the post" reports the outcome appears impossible. it is against the law in pennsylvania, for example. wisconsin law gives no role to the legislature in choosing presidential electors and there's little public -- the other states to pursue such a path. according to several people familiar with conversations. giuliani is regularly conferring with steve bannon, one of the architects -- >> wait, is he not -- wait, is bannon not in jail? wait, is he not in jail? >> i don't know. >> ironically, joe, he's currently awaiting trial for fraud, which is what he's trying to mastermind this operation. >> so that's, willie, that's who the white house is going to? giuliani is going to a guy who's convicted -- who's being tried for fraud right now? >> yes.

who was arrested on a yacht you'll remember this summer and is being tried for fraud and has wished violence on anthony fauci and others most recently. that's where we are. this stuff is failing again and again and again in the courts. the courts are holding up in the face of these preposterous arguments made by rudy giuliani and others. so they can do what they'll do. let them do that. but again, where are republicans on capitol hill? where are they right now? how much longer do you let this go on? >> at this point, where is mitch mcconnell. mitch mcconnell said you have a right to count the votes, i agree. you have a right to bring the legal challenges forward, free agree. but then it's time. the legal challenges we now know and republicans in congress know mitch mcconnell knows the legal challenges have all failed. they're going to fail. there is no way forward for this president. and what's happening and i don't know if this is a country mitch mcconnell wants to live in, but

the republican party is doing everything they can do to undermine the integrity of our voting process. of a peaceful transfer of power. this has never happened before. there is no parallel here. this is a first time a party has tried to completely undermine the peaceful transfer of power from the person who we know won the election and they know won the election. i will say, mika, there are unfortunately some people who i would personally keep away from household blenders who actually believe, they live in their bubble, they go on facebook. and we have friends and relatives who like this, who go on facebook and they actually believe that there's a deep

state conspiracy that intel officers worked with voting machine engineers to mastermind a stolen election for joe biden and, you know what's sad, anne applebaum, i think who we'll be quoting later today. anne applebaum in "twilight of democracy" said there's a lazy stereotype about the trump supporters, they're poor and eneducated, basically deplorables. as anne said -- >> you put that in quotes, deplorables. >> as she said, that's a lazy stereotype often generated by the trump campaign themselves because so many are actually very well educated. so many know exactly where they can get real news. so many have no excuse for

rummaging around in the gutters of facebook to try to find news that just fits their world view, even though they know it's a lie. i know you have friends who you found out last night who went to yale who believe this is a deep state conspiracy, who believe that spies were running around with sunglasses on. and they were whispering in dark shadows of basements to people who make voting machines and the new world order. >> yeah. >> concocted a deep space conspiracy. this is what's happening, no it's not the quote, deplorables. it's not the working man from, you know, oshkosh. >> no, it's the spoiled rich boy from new york who goes to maine in the summer. >> it's the spoiled rich boy

from new york. >> richie rich. >> it's all the richie riches out there that have made tons of money off of donald trump's tax cuts. it's all the people who see their order coming to an end. so these people who have been giving them everything by america are now turning on america because they don't like fact that a guy who cages children lost an election. >> right. and president trump tweeting pitifully that he won the election, maybe those who can speak to him, he doesn't care about our democracy. we have learned that. he doesn't care about that. but he cares about himself and these 251,678 deaths are on his watch. and the more he keeps information and transition

information from the biden team, the more he owns this virus if it's possible. it's not trump's presidency, it's trump's virus that this he's holding on to. he's holding on to it, and he's not allowing information to get in to actually the hands of responsible people who are going to be taking over the reins of power and are going to be dealing with this virus. he's making sure more deaths happen on his watch, whether he knows it or not. he thinks he's screwing the biden team. he thinks he's being, you know, whatever. instead, he's owning death after death after death on his watch, on his name in history, willie. >> yeah, it's true. we should say again because there's so much fog and there's so much garbage out there, the election is close in georgia where they're just finishing their recount and the secretary of state says it won't change much, that joe biden will hang on and win. it's close in arizona.

it's close in wisconsin, and in pennsylvania and michigan, the two places where the trump campaign continues to fight it's not close. the election is simply not close. so if you think you're going to change a couple hundred votes here or there it's not doing to make a difference. you won't change a couple hundred votes but it's not going to make a difference. joe biden is about to take a 6 million vote lead in the popular vote. his lead in the popular vote right now is about twice what hillary clinton's lead was at the end of the day when she won the popular vote against donald trump. so yes, those few states where they're going about their business of recounts are close. but this election broadly frankly just isn't that close. if you believe that somebody in the shadow of the night changed a couple of voting machines -- that didn't happen, but if you believe that's going to overturn the election you're dreaming. >> yeah. you're a fool if you believe that. because -- by the way, you can run around all you want -- >> it's deplorables -- >> you can say, 71, 72 million,

73 million people voted for donald trump that's great. 79 to 80 million voted for joe biden. put this in your conspiracy pipe and smoke it. joe biden has received more votes than any american ever in the history of this constitutional republic. not even a close call. >> yeah. >> by a lot, he won by a lot. he crushed donald trump in the popular vote by 5 million, 5.5 million, 6 million, it's huge. then you go state by state, mika. pennsylvania, republican -- and mitch, listen to this, if you will. pennsylvania, republican senator pat toomey said, there's nothing there. all right? our officials did a good job. there's nothing there. this is going nowhere. these results are going to be certified.

in wisconsin, where of course donald trump decided he only wanted to review black counties, what a shock that is. you know, scott walker -- scott walker saying weeks ago this isn't going to change anything. the spread is too wide, this is not gonna change anything. you've got the governor of arizona, the secretary of state out in arizona saying the same thing. this isn't going to change anything. like there is no fraud, no widespread fraud. this election is over. in georgia, you've got the republic -- republicans all except for the secretary of state in arizona, republican secretary of state in georgia saying this is -- this is not going to change anything. i've got republican senators asking me to throw out legal votes. i've got losers calling up whining, it's not going to change anything. you have republican officials in

all of these states saying that this is a road to nowhere. and again, we know this morning because "the washington post" reported, mika, all it is is an effort to delay. rudy giuliani is wasting federal judges' time and the federal courts' time and he's just stalling. he's holding the ball long enough that he's hoping that they get to a point where they can just throw out the electoral votes. that's never going to happen. mitch, it will never happen. it is time to put america first. >> how about american lives? i mean, we are surpassing now the quarter of a million lives. more than 250,000 people have died from the coronavirus. there is a massive set of facts that backs up that even that number didn't have to happen. okay?

this presidency has so botched this. but now keeping information from the president-elect and his team so that they can get a jump on trying to curb the numbers, to mitigate until vaccines are available, it's unspeakable. and that is the side of history that republicans are choosing to be on. we'll take a quick break and then we'll give you a full update on where the coronavirus stands right now. we'll be right back. e coronavir stands right now we'll be right back.

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we have to have masks. we have to limit indoor crowded spaces.. if we do not do that, we'll lose tens of thousands of americans so i'm urging everyone and you will hear every doc on the task force saying this is really crunch time. this is not crying wolf. this is a time we need to double down because we're at the most

serious and dangerous part of the pandemic that we have been. >> a stark warning from u.s. health secretary admiral brett giroir as the united states has now reported more than 250,000 deaths from covid-19. a quarter of a million deaths. that's 19% of the total covid deaths worldwide. this comes nine months after the first u.s. fatality and covid deaths have increased by 42% over the last four years, a pace not seen since mid august. the number of new infections continues to climb at an alarming rate. the seven-day average for new cases is now more than 171,000. however, "the washington post" reports on a model at columbia university that predicts more than 3 million people in the u.s. are estimated to have

active coronavirus infections right now, much higher than the official number since it accounts for those undiagnosed and "the post" reported that it's equal to the number of public schoolteachers in the united states and the number of truck drivers. willie? >> as coronavirus infections surge across the country, conditions inside the country's hospitals are now deteriorating. they are facing growing that fatigue and frustration as you can imagine. the overwhelmed hospitals are beginning to convert chapels, waiting rooms into treatment areas and allison johnson, the director at johnson city medical center in tennessee told the associated press, we are depressed, disheartened, tired to the bone, adding she drives to and from work some times in tears. el paso is so overwhelmed that inmates are being paid $2 to

help transport the bodies of victims. last week in reno, nevada, they had to turn a parking lot into a hospital. metro hospitals are beginning to turn away patients needing care from rural areas and hospitals in idaho warned this month there's a closing window of opportunity to avoid rationing care. in just the past two weeks more than 900 mayo clinic staff members have been diagnosed with covid-19. the staffing shortage has forced the medical center to shuffle health practitioners across state lines and even to call retired staff back in to service. mika, this sounds like what we were going through here in new york city back in march. >> but now it's spread out across the country, running rampant across the country. >> and to get back to the misinformation that we're talking about with the election, i can't tell you how many people

that i know and even some friends who said to me when i -- you know, hey, maybe we'll get some vaccines coming up next year and -- oh, this will be over on november the 3rd. i heard it time and again. >> right. >> this was just a ploy. this coronavirus, it wasn't real. this was just a ploy to help joe biden in the election. of course, the election's over. and we're now facing actually donald trump's own people are saying the greatest risks and the greatest challenge to this country. and people are literally dying still in denial of this disease. and what it can do to them. i mean, it's just like the flu? really? a quarter of a million people dead in nine months just like the flu? probably going to end up with more people dying from the coronavirus than died in all of

world war ii by the end of this, just like the flu? no, not even close to the flu. so stop being a fool, stop looking at lies on facebook. and get your head in the real world and like we have been asking you to do since march take care of yourself. take care of your parents. take care of your grandparents. take care of veterans. take care of seniors. take care of those with underlying conditions. be smart. i know you have been trained not to be smart over the past four years to ignore the truth, to ignore your doctors' advise, to ignore science, to ignore facts. this is beyond serious now. all right? wear a mask. get smart. listen to your doctor. >> the hope for the vaccine could mean that maybe a year from now we're in a different

place, but let's get to the recent vaccine trials which have shown hopeful results. the drug maker moderna announced on monday that its coronavirus vaccine was 94.5% effective and pfizer just yesterday announced its coronavirus vaccine is now 95% effective and had no serious side effects. the first set of complete results from the late-stage vaccine trial. let's bring in the president and ceo of biotechnology innovation organization, dr. michelle mcmurray heath. so i would love for you to put into perspective where we stand with vaccines because i worry that people are mentally jumping there and yet, if you look at the coronavirus map and you look at the death toll, i think the country, is it fair to say, is in a worse situation than it was when we thought we were at the peak? >> that is completely fair to

say. and the easiest way to think about it, mika, we're close, but we're not all the way there. we have a final mile that's very, very important. just for a moment i also wanted to add as sad and as sobering as it is for us to have reached the tragic milestone of 250,000 lives lost and as sad as it is to face thanksgiving without gathering with the family members we have reasons to be thankful this thanksgiving season and we're so incredibly grateful to the tens of thousands of americans who stepped forward to volunteer for the covid vaccine trials. and for the tens of thousands of scientists who have been braving covid restrictions to continue the research. so we are seeing some amazing results as the fruit of that sacrifice and that work.

it's important to say it's really promising that at this point, just nine months into the pandemic, we have two promising vaccine candidates already that are showing incredible results. you know, the u.s. food and drug administration was hoping for 50 or 60% efficacy and that at this point it looks like we may have some candidates who are above 90% in effectiveness. this is incredibly promising, but there are still important steps to go. >> it is staggering work done by those scientists and by those doctors in such a short period of time. this usually takes years and here we are nine months looking for fda approval, but there's a lot of time as you point out between here and there for most people to get the vaccine. we are seeing some governors in midwestern states who have been reluctant to put in rules now say, yes, we're going to have a mask mandate as the hospitals are overrun. what would your message be to states across the country, to governors, to mayors, about what kind of mitigation efforts should be in place.

i know you'll sound like a broken record because you and other doctors have been saying this for months now, but we have a crisis now particularly in the heart of the country. what would you say to the people there? >> well, we cannot say it enough, willie. we have to wear masks. we have to socially distance. we have to avoid unnecessary travel and we have to sacrifice this holiday season and not have large gatherings or even modest gatherings with our family. we should stay with our households and protect the health care workers that are out there every day. while a vaccine is in sight, we do not have one as of today. we still do not have a full approval of a vaccine candidate yet and we're hopeful that in december, december 8th and 9th, the fda will review the moderna and pfizer vaccine data so hopefully late december/early january, our health care workers may have access to the vaccine.

but this is far away from the general public being able to be vaccinated at the local doctor's office and we have to continue to follow the health guidelines. >> dr. mcmurray heath, thank you very much. let's bring in mike memoli from wilmington, delaware, covering what the biden team is trying to do mike, what can you tell us? >> well, mika, i think it's important to start with the reminder that there are only 11 weeks between election day and inauguration day for a biden administration to really do all of the work it needs to be done to get -- to hit the ground running on day one. and we're now in the third week of that, that has been lost because of the ongoing delay with the transition. i think the sentiment among biden advisers has long been that the more you escalate this publicly the more it might lead to the president to dig in. but there's growing concern that if anything, some of the

republicans who had been speaking out publicly talking about the things biden should be gaining access to like intelligence briefings have if anything gone quiet and the president only seems to be digging in further. so you're beginning to see, the president-elect himself starting to raise the level of concern. he's going to be speaking with some republicans today. he's meeting with a group of governors to talk about what needs to be done at the state level, but yesterday he talked about what the ongoing delays are for getting a vaccine distributed out effectively and quickly to the public if and when it's ready. he also is doing something else, mika, which is trying to set an example for the lack of leadership that they see in the white house. we haven't seen the president much if anything. take a look at what he had to say about steps that americans can be taking to mitigate this ongoing crisis. >> i mean, there's hardly been a meeting that's taking place in the white house about any of this. and i'm convinced that we can

get it done. with the exception of a few republicans like the governor of ohio who's been straightforward and about wearing masks and the like, you have the governor of north dakota and others figuring out that this is real. we have to do something. and it's not a political statement. it's not about, you know, whether you're a tough guy or not a tough guy. whether you're -- it's about patriotism. if you care about your country, you have to keep your neighbors and your family safe. >> my colleague, kristen welker is confirming that the biden administration had communication back channel. this not mark meadows or the agency intelligence chiefs who the president-elect really needs to be getting briefed from about the global threats and biden

deputy campaign manager kate bedingfield saying this is no substitute for what should be happening under the law in order to fully brief the incoming biden team for what they need to be doing at this point. >> nbc's mike memoli, thank you very much. we appreciate it. you heard what the former vice president, president-elect, just said. it's so simple. this is what we're used to hearing from democratic and republican presidents alike that this isn't about politics. this isn't about being a tough guy. this is about loving your country and if you love your country, you'll want to take care of your family and your neighbors and keep them safe. >> yeah. >> if everybody would just do that. if they would just be concerned about keeping their family and keeping their neighbors safe. if they'd only do unto others what have others do unto them and keep them safe.

i mean, that in itself would make a huge difference multiplied millions of times across america. >> not shocked at all, but it's painful. and what makes this so painful is that it is so simple. coming up, we'll bring in our political panel, noah roughman and what's happening with the republican party called the dumbest of coups. the dumbest of coups an official message from medicare.

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is the state department currently preparing to engage with the biden transition team and at what point does that pose a risk to national security? >> there will be a smooth transition to a second trump administration. >> we are moving forward here at the white house under the assumption there will be a second trump term. >> he's left an infrastructure in place where covid can be

handled. we believe we will do so in a second trump administration. >> some members of the trump administration placating president trump's refusal to accept defeat. >> whose going to hire those people? >> trump tv. >> when they leave the white house, after lying and trying to get in the way of a peaceful transition of power while americans are dying left and right. >> it's -- >> who would hire them? >> "the atlantic" magazine's anne applebaum who has studied the impact of regimes, it's not a temper tantrum, but an assault on american democracy, which will have an impact even after he's left the white house. joining us from the associated press, jonathan lemire. nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early," kasie hunt.

columnist from "usa today" and author of "the death of expert's the" tom nichols and errin haines. and with us, an nbc contributor, noah rothman. >> jonathan lemire, you had a great story last night in the a.p. where you said that behind the scenes, republicans are admitting on the hill and across washington, d.c., that donald trump has lost, but you're saying they're telling you off the record the reasons they're afraid to come out and say that publicly. what are they? >> that's right, joe. what we have seen is a growing examples in recents days of republicans privately coming to terms with the elect. no better example than when vice president harris who returned to the senate floor for a vote, a

number of republican senators, some wearing masks, whispered congratulations. lindsey graham who is one of trump's most vocal supporters offered her a fist bump and offered her congratulations on the new post. mark meadows, there was discussion of what could be done in time two months of the trump term and we have had republican senators now being more willing to cast doubt on the chances of these legal challenges, far-fetched legal challenges being mounted by rudy giuliani and others but privately they're not willing to go there. first of all, they point to the fact that donald trump did win more than 70 million votes and he's popular among the republican base who the republicans will need for if future campaigns. they note of course there's always the long-held fear of the tweets and two other things that have emerged here. one, they feel that if the

republicans are perceived as pushing trump out rather than the president coming to grips on his own and kind of quietly whimpering out of office, they fear he'll make risky strategic policy decisions, perhaps more troop draw downs and of course, this is what advisers told me, senate leader mcconnell's primary concern, georgia, the runoff there, where they're hopeful that trump. >> kristen: a useful campaign asset but at the very least they don't want him turning on their own party. if he perceives that the gop is pushing him out, he'll turn on the attack and damage the chances on the two runoffs and they need to win at least one in order to maintain control of the senate. obviously this doesn't excuse their public silence which of course gives life to the conspiracy theories and hands joe biden a very difficult hand.

not only with the transition here, delayed, him unable to be fully briefed on the pandemic as it surges out of control, but also perhaps the minds of a huge portion of the country this is damaging his legitimacy and ability to govern. >> there were stories out of russia during stalin's great purges, they were still clapping because they were afraid that the first to stop clapping would be taken out back and shot. so here we have the republicans thinking that donald trump will hurt them in the upcoming primary. it's pathetic. >> it's pathetic. i mean, i just chuckled out loud when jonathan said they're afraid of the tweets. we're still there, he's lost, he's leaving town. >> i can assure you, you will survive the tweets, the negative

tweets actually make you -- put you in a better position. it's ridiculous. >> unless i misread some of the headlines, mitch mcconnell won re-election by like 20 points against a well-funded challenger in the home state. what is he afraid of? he's afraid of tweets from donald trump? it's confusing and pathetic and we're not talking about the wall or immigration, but the foundation of democracy. we are talking about whether or not you accept the results of an election that was run fairly and securely according to homeland security department. let's read from the piece from noah in commentary magazine, "the dumbest of coups." if this is a coup, as an excitable sort has taken to calling it it's one of the dumbest in history. with what trump is sacrificing to cling to power is the perception is an effective pugilist and a strong advocate for his constituents.

that was only a matter of perception. trump has confessed he's more of a whiner than a fighter, but the president's goal is to remain relevant in the party. a kingmaker ahead of 2022 and a resurgent force in 2024. the fiasco over which he presides over only manges it easier for those who have to break from trumpism to succeed him and the republicans mounting a hopeless last stand are sacrificing the legitimacy and honor defense of a hill that is already overrun. so noah, the fundamental question we have been asking for a couple of weeks now, why do republicans continue to stand by and watch what donald trump is doing? >> i think jonathan put it pretty accurately, that the concern here is about politics. i don't think that it has much to do with continuity and the stability of the country and convincing donald trump's supporters of the legitimacy of the results. if they were to cling to that narrative, it would be a conspiracy theory on their parts they're not going to be reasoned

out of it. and it has very limited political salience. there was a yougov poll that found a two-thirds of democrats who believed that russians had tampered with the vote tally and it had zero impact. this is about maintaining control over the party. i'm concerned i'm not terrified by the maneuvers. we're witnessing hair brained policies and meritless lawsuits. i went down the road that the only parallel you can point to in living memory is the august 1991 coup in moscow, the attempt to wrest control of the forces of control from the soviet union. they're besotted with their own narrative, defending territory that's already lost and they're probably going to hasten what they're trying to prevent. not the outcome of the election,

that's over. but donald trump's perception of himself as an effective pugilist, the petulant displays are the opposite of effective pugilism. they make him look weak and small and defeatable. >> yeah. every day that he does this, he looks more politically impotent. we said that last week, why set yourself up to lose every single when everyone around you, other than rudy giuliani in the middle of this grift, why do you continue to set yourself up to lose every single day. but that's what donald trump is doing and nobody -- nobody will dare go in and say, hey, listen, you're losing every single round of this. it makes no sense to go on. get a clean cut and move on and start planning for your tv network or for 2024. tom nichols, you have been going

back and forth with trumpers who have been criticizing you for saying that if you really want to help conservatism and you want to help the republican party, you have to clear out the whole trump republican party at once. i'll just read this from noah's piece. it makes you exceptionally well, there's no modern analog for the display republicans are engaging, no parallel to which the right can point and claim their actions are justified. this is new. it is pathetic. it is new, it is pathetic, it is dangerous and it proves that you were right all along. these republicans have absolutely no political moral center. >> yeah, that's not much consolation unfortunately,

because imagine the thing we're dealing with and jonathan mentioned it a moment ago. we can't speak truth to the president about a democratic election because we are afraid that he will actually hurt the country, that he will undertaken foreign policy actions that will damage the national security and the military security of the united states. this is unprecedented, not just because we -- we seem to have gotten used to the president who will hurt the country as a way of lashing out and punishing us for electing him, but we didn't see bob dole say, millions of people voted for me. therefore, i'm not going to concede. we didn't see, you know, mondale or ronald reagan in 1976 saying, well, for the sake of the people who voted for me, in a way it's

how donald trump treats his own voters as children. he treats them as he treats himself, as resentful children who must be placated or they'll do terrible harm, that they will start fires. they'll destroy the house, break windows. it's really remarkable that we are not just talking about american citizens here, but adults who supposedly understand the rules of the democratic gain and we're talk about a president who has his own party gripped with the fear that if they tell him to do the right thing, that he will actively destroy the country and harm its interests. >> well, these are adults and they do understand which i think makes it worse. raush, a senior fellow writes for the publication persuasion, "trump's fire hose of falsehood" in which he says the refusal to

concede is more than sour grapes. it is an information warfare tactic to leave the public bewildered and cynical. jonathan writes in part, what trump and his supporters are up to should be thought of as not a litigation campaign that is likely to fail, but as an information warfare campaign that is likely to succeed and indeed is succeeding already. more specifically, they are employing a tactic called the fire hose of falsehood. >> a russian term, by the way. >> this floods the information environment with so many lies, half truths and theories that the public becomes disoriented, confused and distrustful of everyone. to succeed, he must reach two goals. convince enough republicans that the election wasn't free and

fair and that that the results are in doubt and can never be known for sure. those outcomes will frustrate and distract democrats and outrage and mobilize republicans and most important from trump's point of view, position himself to remain agitator in chief after he leaves office. i would contend, kasie, that trump has been doing this throughout his presidency. it's how he survived unbelievable bursting of norms, unbelievable situations that other people -- that democratic president would not survive. trump has done this throughout his presidency and most people just thought oh, it's going to be okay. i think the damage is actually quite deep right now and that this is an incredible point that rauch made. >> it's a stranglehold over information that his supporters are consuming and a big part of

why republicans on the hill have no -- or at least they feel like they have no recourse in pushing back against him because all of the outlets, whether it's conservative media, social media, twitter, it overwhelms whenever they say with whatever this flood of information that the president is -- and his allies are pushing, what they are offering. i'm not trying to excuse it, i'm just saying they're their challenge, that's the problem they have and they have given up in the face of that. in that case we won't saying anything about it, because it will get the media ecosystem turned against us. and tom nichols, i have a question for you and it's a little bit theoretical. some of the most conservative members of the senate or the most conservative thinkers and people in our country, let's take mike lee, for example, they

like to criticize democracy in the most traditional way by saying, you know, we're a republic, we were set up to make there were safeguards in place to make sure we were not ruled by a mob. you know, the implication being direct democracy is ultimately ruled by a mob. from a conservative point of view, is what trump is doing not exactly that which they are criticizing? >> well, people like senator lee like to quote the point about being a republic when it suits them. what trump is doing is not direct democracy and it's not small "r" republicanism, it's demagoguery and the constitution was specifically designed to prevent this kind of behavior and to ameliorate it and to make sure it can be stopped when it begins. and instead, you have people who consider themselves champions of the constitution like senator

lee, giving us airy speeches about the nature of the united states as a republic. in fact, we're a republic and we were created as a system of separated powers so that when someone like donald trump goes off the rails there's supposed stock someone like senator lee stopping him instead of enabling him and misinterpreting the constitution to make it seem like what donald trump is doing is some grand american tradition. the whole system of delegated powers and of indirect rule is so that the people's representatives have an ability to restrain a monarchical and autocratic president like donald trump and it's just more evidence that the republican party and the most senior people in it are absolutely abrogating their duty to the constitution. >> errin haines, these are important questions about the

foundations of our democracy and respect in the election and the legitimacy of president-elect biden, but it's happening at a parallel universe created by donald trump and the campaign. back here in the real world, this pandemic is consuming the united states. if you look back at the president's twitter, not a mention -- not a mention of the coronavirus, it's all capping tweeting that he's won the election and qanon conspiracy theories of what happened on election day. as nurses and doctors are crying out for help in hospitals, it is astounding even though it's him and he said i always wanted to downplay this disease and everything else, it is astounding that the man with his hand on the wheel of the country is not paying attention to the fire that's right in front of him. >> well, willie, we are a week away today from the thanksgiving holiday. and, you know, we should be asking as americans where is the

gratitude for our front line workers who we were regarding as heroes at the beginning of this election. you know, about two months from now, we are going to have an inauguration and there will be a new president of the united states. and so this really cannot be about president trump anymore. this really has to be about the reality that too many americans have been avoiding the reality of this pandemic and now there are too many americans who are avoiding the reality of the results of this election and that includes, by the way, the republicans who won their elections. this election was rigged, are their victories legitimate? you know, i would ask -- i would ask some of them who have been silent on the legitimacy of this election, but look, we know this is not about the legitimacy of the election but the illegitimacy of the expanded electorate and trying to delegitimize folks who are showing up to folk.

there's a relationship i think between the denial in folks around this pandemic and the denial around the election and i think this reuters poll that came out yesterday and i want to read this because it was striking. 73% of those polled agreed that biden won the election, but when asked specifically whether biden had rightfully won, republicans showed they were suspicious about how it was obtained. 52% said that donald trump rightfully won, legal ballots. this is affecting the black and brown americans that expanded this electorate, not just the results of the election and questioning them, but this is the behavior that sends a message to them, not only do their votes not count, but their safety and health do not count. it defies logic and it is delaying this democracy. >> you look at what happened in wayne county a few nights ago

where you actually have republicans who decided to stop the counting of tens of thousands of black votes because they lost the state. because black voters in wayne county came out and voted overwhelmingly for joe biden, just like they did in milwaukee county, just like they did in philadelphia, just like they did in atlanta. so they're trying to -- you could call it what you want to call it, but what it is is it's racist. you have republican officials who are purposefully trying to target black votes, just like donald trump is doing now. he could have challenged all of the certifications in the state of wisconsin, but instead, he chose just to do it in the two counties that had the most black voters. and so, it's just more of the same. >> absolutely. whose votes are being questioned here is the question that we

have to ask and this matters not just for this election. there's a runoff that's happening in georgia, that's coming up in several weeks. if people are being made to feel that maybe their votes will be called in to question, that is the other side of voter suppression. that is what voter suppression can look like in the 21st century. the psychological effect that says maybe my vote won't count if i show up. you know, so can i trust that if i participate in this election, again, this is the thanksgiving season. we should be grateful that a record number of americans, 65% turnout rate. the highest since 1908 in the middle of a pandemic, we should be grateful that as our federal government has affirmed that our democracy worked even in the midst of tremendous challenges for the majority of this electorate. and yet, that is not the conversation that we are having.

we are not sitting here and talking about the gratitude for the poll workers and for everybody who participated in this democracy regardless of what the outcome was, that that was able to happen. we are talking instead about, you know, the possible legitimacy of voters simply because the outcome was not as some may have wished for it to be. >> all right, errin haines, tom nichols, noah rothman, thank you all. the united states has now reported more than 250,000 deaths from covid-19, a quarter of a million deaths. that's 19% of the total covid deaths worldwide. we are number one in this category. this comes nine months after the first u.s. fatality from the virus in early february. covid deaths have increased by 4 42%, a pace not seen since mid

august. the number of new infections also continues to climb at an alarming rate. the seven-day average for new cases is now more than 171,000. joining us now director of the center for infectious disease, research and policy and a professor in the medical school at the university of minnesota, dr. michael osterholm, a president of president-elect biden's coronavirus advisory board. dr. osterholm, i first want to ask you where we stand as opposed to the peaks we were reaching in new york city in major cities back in may. it seems like this disease, this virus, has spread out across the country and the situation might even be worse now. >> you know, mika, i wish i could give you a better answer other than to say that we're going to look back in the next few weeks and wish we were only

back at 170,000 cases a day. that's what america has to understand, that's what we're confronting, that's what the hospitals have to take care of and that's why we have to convince the american public that we must do so much more to reduce transmission. >> what can the trump team do to help the biden transition team be in a strong place to fight this virus? >> well, right now, it would be ideal although i realize the challenges of hoping that there is no party label. we're all coming together on this. governors and mayors need help badly right now trying to understand what the most effective things they can do. we need a financial package right now that makes it possible for us to shut down some small businesses, such as bars and restaurants, that helps those unemployed to do the right thing. they want to do the right thing. but when you're financially so challenged as we are right now, this makes it harder to do the

kind of things we need to do and we need help from washington and it should be a nonpartisan public response. >> of the greatest challenges we face, where should with we be focused? >> we have to understand that we have the opportunity to get to you might say the promised land. i think these vaccines are going to be very important and very effective. but we're not going to have them for weeks for months, but we have light at the end of the tunnel so please dig in one more time and help us. the key factor right now, joe, don't swap air, it's that simple. when people are all getting together in public places, public events, weddings, funerals, you know, school-related events, all these kinds of things that people don't think of, well, it can't happen here, it is happening. that's what we need to get people to understand that if you're in the same room with somebody you don't know and you don't have your mask on or even in some cases with your mask on,

you're at risk. how do you limit that transition that's what we've got to do now. >> dr. osterholm, it's willie, good to see you this morning. can you put in terms for our viewers the cost of each day passing without a transition from the biden and the trump administration on the coronavirus. what about specifically for your area and for your team? >> well, i can't comment specifically on what the members of the transition team are doing right now in terms of trying to have conversations across the federal government. i can just say for individuals like us we're not having information. i think we have to understand we need current information on the number of cases. i think that the white house task force report issued yesterday or at least was made public yesterday is right on the

mark. we are in a crisis stage. we have to be discussing what can we do, what do we do. it's not enough to help the americans to understand you don't want to swap air, but how do you incentivize them and help them this is what they want to do. we need fdr moments right now. this is how bad it is, we're going to see hospitals collapsing in next two to three weeks. and this is what we've got to do to address that and just remember one thing. for the next three weeks the cases are already in pipeline. the people who are infected this morning will be the cases of next week in the hospital, few days after that, and will be in the intensive care rooms and dying after that. even if we did everything we could right now, we would still not turn this thing around for literally three to four more weeks. >> what are the practical impacts of your being prevented from getting all this information that you should be getting under a speedy transition, under a regular

transmission, what do you have that you would like to have? >> well, again, i can't comment on behalf of the transition team what they're trying to get. i know for fact that as a public health practitioner out here in the hinter lands we need desperately to get the public to understand, one, why is transmission happening, what you can do about it. number two, the severity of the problem. so many governors and mayors are being criticized for taking steps. if people could spend 20 minutes in the intensive care today, i think that would hopefully scare them into the wits, not out of the wits. we need to get people to understand how safe and effective the vaccines are. just bringing it out doesn't mean that people will take it. there's a high level of distrust for this vaccine, so we should have been for the last several months working on broadcasting to the public this is what we know this is the story we're telling you about the vaccines, this is what they can do, this

is the safety issues and from a public health perspective we'll take them. i can't wait to get my vaccine. i'll get in line, i don't have a high risk as some people who deserve the vaccine before me. but i can't wait for the moment that i get my vaccine. >> so doctor, can you sketch out -- let's talk about the light at the end of the tunnel here. can you sketch out a time frame that you think is practical if these vaccines -- these two vaccines we have heard about this week go through their final trials and are mass produced, what do you think a reasonable time frame would be for americans to start being able to receive the vaccine? >> well, i think we're going to see americans starting to get the vaccine within weeks. however, the amount of vaccine will be limited. you know, 20 to 30 million doses. remember, it takes two doses for full protection. and so you're talking about the need to have over 650 to 660 million doses just for the united states. we will see that production ramp

up i think with both companies whose vaccines we have been talking about and so, you know, my hope is, joe, i'm taking my grandkids back to baseball in june and july. i want to do that so badly. i think that's a realistic time period we could begin seeing that happening in this country. we will surely have improvements before june or july and in the meantime, we have to understand we are going through right now the single most dangerous public health since 1918. it's that serious. i can't give people more of a clear warning than to say if you really doubt this is going to happen, you will be one of those people who will wake up one day and go oh, my god, what has happened? >> one more topic, talking about that light at the end of the tunnel that we will reach at some point, a study reported in

"the new york times" a few days ago talking about how long immunity lasts. there's been debates of possibly six months, as short as three months. the study that "the new york times" studied which hasn't been peer reviewed of course, that immunity may last a year, even longer. what are your thoughts on that study? >> you know, i think it's an important piece of work. we're going to learn over time how long the vaccine works. i think the important message is even if it doesn't work a long time, it's not a challenge in the sense that we could still give booster doses like for the annual flu vaccine so from that standpoint i'm very, very excited about the results. remember, when i was on last time we talking about a bit of a cautionary tale with the vaccines when the original pfizer estimate said that it had an efficacy of 90%, is that 90% for preventing fever, muscle aches and chills or is it 90% in

basically preventing severe disease? and guess what? we found out that it actually is also severe disease. we could not have had better news so again, that's the light at the end of the opportunity that will we have to get people through to that point. but in the meantime right now, we have a serious challenge. please america, don't transmit this virus to each other and don't get infected. i can't say it any more plainly than that. >> all right. former boston globe legendary columnist, mike barnicle is with us, and mike has a question. mike? >> doctor, at the start of this conversation, you said something that if people think about it is rather shocking when you indicated that 170,000 transmissions a day right now in two or three weeks we would be looking at that number as the good old days. so if you were preparing a battle plan which you are indeed preparing, a battle plan to fight the virus, what would you

put on the table right now to make sure that 127 170,000 number won't grow, but what are the critical elements for people to remain safe? >> well, with can break the chain of transmission, mike, meaning how do i transmit the virus to you, you to me and it's close contact. we live in a world today that we have to have close contact. we can't shut ourselves up into the room or put ourselves in a bubble. for example, bars and restaurants have been a major source of transmission and asking them to take a pause is a very, very important step forward. having said that, i understand the implications financially. that's where we need support. you know, helping people understand thanksgiving, i worry so much about this next week. families are going to come together and we all believe, well, this is my family. they're not going to infect me,

they all look healthy and yet you'll have that one person at the table that could very well infect 10 or 12 people out of the 15 or 20 that are there. i have personally seen where grandpa and grandma are dead three weeks later. you know what, i want to be with my family for thanksgiving more than i can tell you. i miss my grandkids viscerally, i miss them so much, but you know what, i love them this much i won't be there this year. i'll love them virtually. so stay home, stay with the people that you're bubbled with. whatever you can do to limit that transmission, of potential being together s the key message. and wherever it happens, whether it's on the farm, the city, whether it's traveling, wherever, limit your exposure to other people. >> dr. michael osterholm, thank you very much for everything you're doing. and now to this.

new york city yesterday announced the entire public school system will return to all remote learning starting today. the shutdown was prompted by the city reaching a 3% test positivity rate over a seven-day rolling average. mayor bill de blasio has been the first big city mayor in the country to reopen school buildings which have been open for in-person instruction for just under eight weeks. moving to all remote learning could create child care problems for parents who count on their children being at school for at least part of the week. roughly 300,000 children who have been attending in-person classes are expected to be impacted. this latest move has many new york city parents asking why the city is choosing to end in-person learning while the state is allowing indoor dining and gyms to remain open at a reduced capacity. a circumstance that has infuriated parents, exhausted by

ever-changing school schedules as they watch other parts of the world notably western europe keep schools open while bars, theaters and restaurants have closed. >> so, willie, the tweet of the day, we just showed it. jessica winter asking so can children go to school in restaurants? and, you know, it reminds me in nevada, the point when they were -- they were keeping the casinos open, but not allowing people to go to church. now in new york city, they're keeping the restaurants and the bars open, but not allowing kids to go to school. i understand -- i mean, new york city parents like so many other parents across the country have to be terribly frustrated by this. >> yeah, that was sort of the running question last night, can my kid go take algebra in a bar tonight that will be open? now, the mayor of new york city,

bill de blasio, indicated yesterday and sort of vague terms that more restrictions were coming. so perhaps we will see the closures of the bars and restaurants. we're directly impacted with this with our kids so we have feelings on this matter but it's the 3% thresh hold that is frustrating to parents. a lot of parents were worried about their kids going back to school in the middle of a pandemic, but schools have proven to be the most safest in new york city. the positivity rate is less than 0.2% in the schools. shouldn't the number rise as so many parents depend on the schools and not just to educate their children but so they can go to work for the day. there are special needs children who need this every single day. why the 3% and why not let that number expand as the facts

change in schools? >> yeah, willie, setting aside our own deeply personal feelings about this, this subject, i mean, this is raising a lot of questions in new york city. of course it is the largest school system in the country by far. and one that was touted as a success story when it was able to reopen, even if students were going two to three times a week in order to keep the class size down. that 3% rate was sort of arbitrarily decided. it was a number that was picked to reassure all involved including the teachers union who are a big part of this story that, therefore, the schools would be kept safe. as we learned in the months that have followed schools as you said are -- have not become major sources of virus transmission. they are largely very safe. of course, there are cases here and there, but it's been proven to be a success story and we had both mayor de blasio and governor cuomo on the show earlier this week and we saw

from their dueling press conferences yesterday some real friction in how this should be played out. the mayor said the schools will be closed and through thanksgiving but with the expected surge of cases around the holiday travel i think there's an expectation they could be closed a lot longer than that with the frustration for so many parents, the idea that bars and restaurants and gyms even remain open and having indoor service. that could change, but it does awe -- it raises questions about priorities. priorities in new york compared to other cities and other countries. >> again, of course the answer is not closing the restaurants and bars so you have equity between the two, it is trying to keep the public schools as open as long as you can safely keep the public schools open. you know, my children go to school, they have covid outbreaks, what happens when they have a covid outbreak? those kids go home and they go

home for 14 days and then they keep going. this 3%, mike barnicle -- this 3% number is arbitrary and as jonathan lemire just suggested the teacher's union in new york may have something to do with its, and lot of anger at the teachers union from some long-time allies. i can't exactly quote what josh barro said on twitter last night, but it was a doozie. but a lot of complaints about teachers unions who are pushing bill de blasio to close schools at an arbitrarily low number. >> yeah. i understand that, joe, but, you know, i don't think we can blame the teachers who are fearful of catching the virus, depending on their age. and perhaps dying because of the virus. i mean, their job is to teach,

not to commit suicide in classrooms. the larger story here that jonathan and willie and you have alluded to and talked about, the umbrella covering this story is one of truly tragic and deep and lasting proportion. educationally, economically, socially, culturally because we're talking about a group of children who are going to miss critical components of their education. in the years of growing up. and i don't know that they'll ever catch up a lot of them. the parents, the parents involved consider this. if you're a young married couple or a single mother or a single dad, you got hit economically in 2008 and 2009 during the great collapse over our financial system, you get back on your feet, you're slowly recovering and then, boom, you are hit again. you might never recover economically for the rest of your life. so we have all of the groupings of people. young students in elementary

schools or high schools who have less of a shot at getting the firm -- educational foot hold on the future than ever before, gone. okay? it's just tragic what has happened to these students and their families, it's not just new york but across the country. >> so true, mike and mika. there are 1.1 million new york public school students, and for many of them these will be lost years, let's just say it. a lot of teachers are doing their best to teach online but it's incredibly difficult to get the help to the students who need extra help on the computer. it will deepen the disparities in this country. there are parents who will hire tutors to help their kids keep up. but the vast, vast majority of them obviously cannot afford to

do that. this will make -- this will make a big impact as mike says on their lives and not for the good. >> you'll have a disparity in education between the richest and the poorest and we have seen that already where middle class and upper middle class and wealthy parents can afford to get their kids s.a.t. tutors starting in like their sophomore year. so it's not a fair test to take, by the time they get to the senior year and like you said, willie, the kids that go home that are middle class or upper middle class or wealthy and they have tutors online. they have groups online. they're organized online where you have a single mother in queens or the bronx or any part of new york whose, you know, just trying to keep her head above water, trying to go to work, trying to be able to pay

rent, and not going to be able to do that with a child at home. mika, that doesn't get -- we need to get gillian galin on here to talk about it. the mental health challenges, every mental health professional tells me is being visited upon these children not only in new york but across america who are being isolated at home. >> and their parents. earlier you heard dr. osterholm just mention that the best way to avoid the virus is for people not to swap air as he put it. well, california governor gavin newsom is facing fresh scrutiny for attending a lavish birthday dinner with lobbyists earlier this month. the governor was apparently unmasked and in close quarters with a large group at the french restaurant in napa valley. he has apologized for attending, calling it quote a bad mistake.

newsom and others have urged the californians to be vigilant. most recently asking residents to stay home and avoid visiting extended family over thanksgiving. also attending that dinner according to politico were two top executives for the california medical association, which lobbies on behalf of doctors in the state. i can't even -- >> you know, jonathan lemire, i -- it's incredible. i remember looking at those pictures of trump rallies and people crammed together, not wearing masks. and asking what planet are these people from, looking after joe biden was announced that he was president, you know, you had all of the people crammed together by the white house again not wearing masks, a lot of them. saying are they from another planet? and now you look at this picture of the governor of california

with lobbyists jammed into a closed room. listen, i'm -- i'm not so risk averse that i haven't completely stopped living during this pandemic, but i look at that picture and i'm like, what planet are they from? or do they not read newspapers about how one person can come to the table and in a closed setting will infect everybody there who will go out there and infect another ten people, who will go out and infect another ten people. this is a problem you have seen up close at the white house. that sort of recklessness and the problem with gavin newsom too, he sends the kids home. his kids go to private schools. >> yeah, doesn't matter which political party you belong to the standards should apply. we call out bad behavior if

you're a republican or democrat and in the case of newsom it's a matter of do as i say, not as i do. he's taken a wave of criticism, he's apologized, said it was bad judgment but it certainly reeks of hypocrisy. he's told the residents of california, he urged them to stay home and avoid gatherings as the holidays appear, and he partook in one. it is similar to what we have seen at the white house where they have time and again, much bigger scale, but these sort of events. right now, the west wing is basically a ghost town in part because of the election night outbreak, the party they had in the white house, indoors, the night of the election, the president spoke and a number of cases have stemmed from that. so people -- chief of staff mark meadows only returned to work yesterday after being sick and a number of staffers who he had

contact they're still quarantining. so we are still seeing the ramifications, the very government officials who are supposed to be setting an example have had -- they have fail to do so. this one mistake by newsom doesn't compare by the repeated mistakes by trump and his administration to play down the virus but not a good look either. >> it's not on the same scale as rally after rally after rally, but it's the example it sets and it confirms every suspicion that it's rules for them and not for me. and not only that, in a time of economic crisis, i mean, the list goes on here, they're eating $300 appetizers or whatever they are at the restaurant, it's a terrible look and again it feeds the suspicions of people who say, you know what, maybe it's not that serious, they want to make rules for us, but look at the way they conduct themselves.

the irony is that governor newsom has done a good job. i mean, he locked down earlier than most states but this is not a good look. >> well, that's the problem, willie, is the apology is fine, but the picture sends the message to people in california and across the country, well, if he doesn't think it's that serious and he's sitting around with lobbyists for the california medical association and they don't think it's that serious, then why the hell can't i have my family over for thanksgiving dinner? they're going out drinking at one of the most expensive restaurants in california and in their 1% bubble and politicians are sitting there wining and dining with lobbyists but i'm not supposed to see my family on thanksgiving? that's what's going through the minds of every californian that's seeing that.

it's dangerous. gavin newsom needs to do more than just apologize. he needs to say what i did was stupid, what i did was dangerous. i risked the health of people i know. i risked the health of everybody around me and i risked the health of the people who run the state of california. it's that serious. and yes, there is no moral equivalency between one dinner and tons of rallies that donald trump has pushed throughout the election season. but if you're criticizing those rallies, if you're saying we need to do better, if you're saying that's dangerous behavior, then yes, you're gonna be held to a higher standard and there's not going to be moral equivalency for you. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe,"

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hey, you know, mike, i want to put a little context in this gavin newsom deal where i think -- i have been thinking back, what have i done this year, have i done remotely anything like that? about the closest i have done to that is i met you in nantucket, had a cup of coffee with you because i knew you had been isolating because you have people with underlying conditions just like me, and then we got on a bench, we got away from everybody, had coffee.

and i think the only other time -- you're the same way, we went out with jane and steve at a restaurant that had an outside table at the end of the street away from everybody else. and i'll tell you, mika -- like we order out to help restaurants, local restaurants, all the time. but man -- >> can't swap air. >> you can't swap air. it's just amazing to me that a governor of the most populous state would do that. it really does seem other worldly to me. >> yeah, you know, joe, i mean, the truth is and we should people right now that you and i were practicing social distance well before this was told was the right thing to do we have been practicing social distancing for about 30 years. >> you guys enjoy it.

>> you're right. i think we actually said that morning when i met you for coffee, you and i know, we said how's the pandemic going for you, how's the social distancing, we have been doing that for a long time. >> actually, looking at the pictures and i saw them last them online and again this morning, i was thinking of lemire and myself and other people who have been in the news business for quite some time -- i have been in it a lot longer for lemire, obviously, but i would harken back to what the editors would do in the old days and the caption they would put on that is the arrogance of the entitled. and unfortunately for us over the last 10, 15, 20 years, the distance between the entitled in this country and their arrogance has only grown and it's

separated us as an nation. i don't know all of the reasons for it, but it's there, there's a distance between some other and willie was right that people will look at the picture and you spoke ago it a few moments ago, well, look at this guy and his friends sitting there having a fun dinner, where it's like $350 for a billion of coca-cola, you can't get a reservation at that kind of place. and they're telling me to wear a mask? they're telling me to stand in line at the grocery store? they're telling me not to have my grandchildren over for thanksgiving? who were they and that unfortunately is the larger message that people take from it. >> yeah. well, the division is at the very top right now. house speaker nancy pelosi remains in charge of her caucus after easily winning re-election to that post. but for how long? here is her reaction to msnbc's

garri garrett haake who asked if this could be her last as the democratic leader. >> i'm curious if you anticipate that this coming congress would be your last as speaker? >> there was a move to put limits on the leadership and the chairs of committees, but it never came -- they never brought -- they said they'd do it, but they didn't do it. but i said then what i said then is whether it passes or not i will abide by those limits. >> well, democrats will still control the house, republicans flipped more than half a dozen seats including two key battleground state of florida. joining us now democratic congresswoman debbie mucarsel-powell of florida. she was one of the two democrats who lost her seat on election day. kasie hunt is still with us as

well and also with us is white house correspondent for pbs news hour, yamiche alcindor. >> congresswoman, i'm sure you were hearing everything i was and i knew you were in trouble just like you knew that you knew you were in trouble. i kept hearing the same two things -- socialism, defund the police. i'm not going to vote for, she wants to defund the police and supporters socialism. i get progressives on the show who does live in florida, who say, no, it was something else, no, i heard it all over florida, not only miami-dade. >> good morning, joe, good morning, everyone. i think that definitely had a negative impact on my race on donna shalala's race here in south florida, but there was so much more going on that a lot of

people missed the boat on. and one of the things that i brought up early on is that there was a spread of misinformation that was happening, targeted to latino voters in south dade and in miami-dade county and i actually joined joakim castro to ask the fbi to investigate where this was coming from. the troubling part about this, this targeted misinformation wasn't just happening in social media, in chats like whats up, you'd hear it on the spanish radio stations in miami-dade. an insert had been going on for months and one of the main spanish newspapers so i think it was the perfect storm. i mean, absolutely socialism had a negative impact and the republicans in florida have been using those attacks against democrats since 2016. and they have been repeating

this false attack over and over again. but there were so many other factors and that's something that i think is incredibly important for the democratic party nationally and in florida to understand. that our group, the latino and hispanic vote in south florida is very diverse. socialism may have affected certain parts of the latino vote but not all of them. we saw we had an electorate that was ready to reopen, the economic consequences of this pandemic played a very integral part of how they were voting and what they were thinking. so you can't just blame what happened in miami-dade to those attacks. there was so much more going on. >> kasie hunt is with us and has a question. kasie? >> hi, kasie. >> congresswoman, good morning. to pick up on the last thought that you had here, i mean, we went into election night thinking and certainly frankly my sources on both sides of the aisle, republicans and democrats, were expecting the

democrats would pick up between at least five and seven seats if they had the good landslide night many of them anticipated it would be north of ten seats in the house and that's not what happened. it wasn't just your district across the map in fact democrats lost seats when we didn't expect that. what have you said to the house speaker nancy pelosi about this? why were they so blind to what was going on? >> there's definitely something happening, kasie, and i want everyone that is watching this show this morning to remember that we have one major problem and it's the party of trump, the republican party. they are definitely communicating with voters in a way that we're not seeing. and that's why we missed the polling not only in my race, but across the country in different areas with some of my colleagues. they are using tactics that we need to figure out if we want to expand the map in 2022. if we want to win statewide in

florida, if we want to bring back some of these members in 2022. and there's -- like i said, there are a lot of lessons that we need to learn from what happened. we were not expecting these losses, like you said, kasie. there's definitely a problem with election interference. we knew that happened in 2016. we need to investigate how this misinformation was targeted in different areas not only in miami-dade. i have to tell you that i have been having a lot of conversations with my colleagues in south texas. the same tactics were being used with different messaging in south texas. so i have been talking to the speaker and this and she's listening and she wants to understand how we can better communicate with latino voters across america. >> yamiche alcindor has the next question. yamiche? >> good morning, congresswoman. my question is -- hi. when you look at your race, what

could you have done differently? to be re-elected is there something you could have been done? and secondly, obama has talked about truth decay and how much do you think that factored into your race and what's the solution for that? >> when i look back, yamiche, i have to say and i think for many of us, you start picking up certain messages that sometimes you ignore because you're thinking, well, this is not going to really influence the outcome. i think that we're doing everything that we need to do at this point. well, no, there were signs that i was picking up from friends that were sending me messages on their chats that they were getting a lot of attacks against democrats that i hadn't seen in mainstream media, for example. so i wish i would have paid a little bit more attention on those things. we started knocking on doors regardless of what a lot of people across the nation were doing. i knew that i had to be present. i knew that i needed to talk to the voters. we did it in a very safe way. maybe we should have started earlier but the problem is in

south florida we were the epicenter of the coronavirus in july and we had to wait and i wish we had done more knocking on doors even though we knocked on more than 23,000 doors. i think one of the things that we need to take into account is that regardless of what happened in -- on tuesday, november 3rd, there are many bright spots. look at what happened in arizona. there was major outreach to latino voters in arizona and not just in this election but for years and one of the things that the republicans have known how to do in florida is to continue to communicate with the diverse populations that we have. we have puerto ricans in central america and we have ecuadorans, colombians, and republicans have been communicating consistently with these groups in florida and

that's something that i have been sounding the alarm since i got elected in 2018. i was a leader in bringing and talking about bringing freedom to venezuela and providing humanitarian aid so what happens in venezuela is very important in south -- in miami-dade county. so those are the lessons that we have to learn. but let's not forget that we elected president-elect joe biden with a massive turnout of latino voters in other areas like arizona and nevada. so we need to learn from those lessons, start communicating early. doing our outreach and listening to what is important to every latino and not just every latino, but everybody -- >> congresswoman debbie mucarsel-powell, thank you very much for being on the show. let's turn back to the pandemic and the nurses and

doctors are trying to convince americans to wear masks. nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez has more. >> reporter: this morning, hundreds of nurses are on strike at a philadelphia hospital protesting low staffing and rising frustration over the covid crisis. >> i'm very concerned about what's going on in there right now. >> reporter: now across the country health care workers from nearly a hundred hospitals are joining forces with an urgent plea. wear a mask. the new psa shows images of overworked and exhausted doctors and nurses begging for help. >> there's not enough of us to help. >> reporter: but also a back of bed space. >> it's exhausting. it's overwhelming. >> reporter: dr. nicole gil works at the medical center in iowa where the icu is full. >> i think there's a sense that no one is listening to us. and it really does feel at times as if, you know, we're on the field, we're fighting fires and

yet people continue to set fires. >> reporter: doctors and nurses are also becoming patients themselves. more than 900 staff members at the mayo clinic in minnesota and wisconsin have been diagnosed with covid in just the last and wisconsin having diagnosed in the last two weeks. >> if we as health care work force members become exposed to someone with the virus, we would have to quarantine for two weeks, which puts us out of the work force. >> in a virtual round table president-elect biden became visible emotional while hearing from an overnight icu nurse from minnesota who told them she's never even been tested for covid despite working on the front lines since february. >> you got me emotional. you're all making extraordinary sacrifices. there is hope on the way. >> reporter: but this is the sound of gratitude. this patient in utah intubated and unable to use his voice instead played the violin to show his appreciation. >> to be able to put aside all

of his own needs to be able to play for the rest of the staff members, it was absolutely incredible. >> gabe gutierrez reporting there. joining us now former acting director of the cdc, president and ceo of the robert wood johnson foundation, dr. richard besser. he has a new op-ed in "usa today" titled covid-19 smtsunam of suffering. it's great to have you with us. how frustrating must be for you to watch and see doctors still having to tell people to wear masks, still having to tell people to distance, and i'm struck by how this is playing out exactly the way you and other public health experts told us it would back in february and march, that we'd go through a very difficult time. it might subside a bit in the summer and come back with a vengeance in the fall and winter. and here we are. >> that's the big question, how

do you get people who are, you know, understandably really tired. they're tired of being afraid. they're tired of having to change their lives. how do you get them to do those things that we know work? you know, they worked in the spring when the numbers went down in the states where they were high. wearing masks, social distancing, washing hands, closing indoor gatherings, shutting down movie theaters and bars, and you know, going back to pick up instead of indoor dining. those things work but the appetite for doing them is at a low, and when you hear such exciting vaccine news, instead of saying, okay, we're going to double down and do everything possible to get through this winter in a safe way, people are saying thank you god we don't have to do that stuff anymore. the vaccines are here, and that's not the case. they're not going to help us this winter. >> so dr. osterholm was on a couple of minutes ago and said bluntly please don't swap air. by that he meant don't be in

confined spaces with groups outside your household, don't do a big thanksgiving. even when you have a mask on sometimes when you have a bunch of people in an indoor space, you're swapping air with them, and that can be dangerous. he also said which kind of stopped us in our tracks he said this moment right now as we sit here is the most serious in american public health since 1918. so what is your assessment of where we are as now we head into thanksgiving and the holidays? >> yeah, i think mike is right. he's got a blunt, clear way of helping people visualize this. you know, this is the time of year when viruses thrive. they love the cold. they love low humidity. they love it when we're in close indoors, when our behaviors change, we can't spend time distant in a way that we enjoy, you know. activities move indoors, and viruses just take off, and if we don't follow the science, if we don't do these things, it is going to be a dire winter.

the other part of this, willie, and i know you all talked about this earlier, is that, you know, following the science means following the science, and in many places, schools have been able to open safely. i'm pediatrician and parent and for many children being in school where they can be observed wearing masks, observed social distancing is the safest place for them, and we haven't seen much in the way of transmission between student to teachers and staff. we need to make sure teachers and staff are safe, but if the science is saying it's the safest place for everyone to be, let children be together. let them learn. it's great for their physical and mental health. it's great for their education, and in many places it's the safe place for them to be as well. >> well, it's an interesting point. we were talking about the new york city schools closing because they reached that 3% positivity threshold citywide, not instead the schools where the positivity rate is less than 2%.

we know these are not easy calls. we know they're all taken seriously by doctors and by, you know, school administrators, do you think new york city schools should be open? >> i do. i really do. and you know, i want to own it that when the decisions were being made to open schools and get kids in, you know, one of the things that i said and so many said is that you're not going to be able to open schools safely if you can't control this first in the community. and so get it under control and then open schools. but what we've seen is that schools can be opened quite safely. you don't want to do it -- you don't want to start doing that when the numbers are really high, but new york has really been a model for how do you do this. they've done regular testing. they've ensured there's distancing in the classroom. it's a hybrid model. many students are learning from home, but the disparities here, not being able to provide in-classroom learning for so

many children will further the gap between those in communities that are haves and those that are have notes. a and in america where so much education is funded off of property taxes, it's so incredibly unfair to say we're not going to allow children to come to school even though we're not seeing that really as a public health risk. >> and that's the frustration, as you say, it was going well in new york city for these schools. it was a success story that has now been stopped. dr. besser, yamiche alcindor is here with a question. yamiche. >> good morning, dr. besser, thanks so much for being here. my question is what's your best advice for vulnerable populations and communities that don't have the privilege to do things like social distance or work from home. i've talked to so many immigrants who have to go to work, who have to take public transportation, who live in an apartment that's seven people to two bedrooms. what should they do as these spikes continue? >> yeah. when you look at why black americans, latino americans,

native americans are being infected, hospitalized and dying at incredibly high rates, the biggest factor in that is differences in exposure. so many are essential workers doing those things to keep society going. what it's going to take is ensuring that congress steps up and provides people with what they need to be safe. there are many people in america who are forced every day to decide between going to work, put food on the table and pay the rent or staying home so that they can be safe, and back in the spring, congress came together. they put money in people's pockets. they put up more tatoriums arou victims. they expanded the sick leave and medical leave benefits. that's all gone, and a lot of people who shouldn't be going to work, who should be home either because they've got symptoms or they're very high risk, they can't afford to do that. in january there are tens of millions of renters who are at risk of being evicted and congress has done nothing.

it is absolutely -- it is criminal that congress can't come together and provide people with what they need. and different people in different communities have different needs and those needs to be met. >> many members of congress on airplanes going home for the next ten days, back for a couple of weeks and we're into the holidays. the hopes far big package are dim. dr. richard besser, it's always great to have your point of view on the show. mika. still ahead, with little hope of overturning joe biden's victory, president trump and his allies like rudy giuliani are changing strategies. instead of trying to disqualify votes, their new plan appears to be to sow doubt. "morning joe" is back in one minute. gaps and wrap hair. so shark replaced them with flexible power fins to directly engage floors and dig deep into carpets. pick up more on every pass with no hair wrap. shark vertex with duoclean power fins. pizza. tacos. pizza!

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mr. meadows, do you have any examples of voter fraud? are you looking into examples of voter fraud in states that he won? >> we've got a whole team looking at things, so i can't really speak to that. >> he can't really speak to it. white house chief of staff mark meadows after meeting with senate republicans yesterday brushing off several reporter questions concerning president trump's unfounded allegations of voter fraud. "associated press" reports that meadows has encouraged senate republicans to make the most of their remaining time with trump according to senators. so the problem is that the biden

transition team, joe, is waiting for -- is waiting desperately, actually, for vital information pertaining to the coronavirus. and people will lose their lives if this information isn't handed over. >> yeah. i mean, and we're at 250,000 lives lost right now. that number's going to go up. we've got the highest incidence of coronavirus cases ever. this is a disease that we didn't even know about a year ago. now a quarter of a million americans are going to be dead. certainly we're going to be most likely close to 300,000 by the time donald trump leaves office. he has by continuing to sit in his office and do nothing and not allow the transition of power to begin and not to key the biden administration in to where they are on vaccines, on

strategy, he is making sure that history holds him accountable for every last death that we have during this time frame. >> wow. >> you know, and we've been patient on this show. i mean, i've said time and again that mitch mcconnell when he tweeted out everybody has a right to count the votes and they have the right to do the legal challenges, and then we move forward. well, we're there, and you know, willie, this is, of course, as you know, when we get around the campfire, when we get into the ozarks, by the way, more coastline there, you-all than in the state of california. >> true story. >> true story. but when we get around that campfire, we start talking about a lot of things, and you always tell me, you go, joe, joe, tell me that thing about the rip tide

in pensacola. tell me that story again. and of course what i tell willie is we learned very young in the northwest florida region that when you're on the beaches and the rip tide takes you out -- and i'm looking at you, alabama and louisiana tourists. when that rip tide starts taking you out, you just go with it, and it just -- it will take you out a while, but you just stay calm because it's going to take you out until it stops, and when it stops, you then swim parallel to the beach, and then you just swim on in. all right, you all got that? well, that's been, willie, as you said to me last night, when we were at the orphanage, socially distanced, wearing masks. that's what you said our strategy should be here. we know donald trump's going to act badly. we know the republicans are going to act badly, but just let

them do their thing, and when we get to the end of that process, all right, then it's time to start talking. well, we're at the end of that process. you look yesterday, willie at "the washington post" article with bob costa. they know and they're admitting now, they can't win these legal lawsuits. they're admitting in front of courts there is no fraud as a matter of law. they're admitting there's no way forward in any of these legal challenges, so now they're moving on, and they're going to try to disrupt the electors, doing something that is grossly undemocratic, grossly un-american, and something that will stay with this republican party for years to come. they know it's over, and yet they won't do anything about it. willie, we've ridden the rip tide long enough. it's time for america to move

forward. get out of it, start swimming back toward the shore, and get on firm ground, start planning for a peaceful transfer of power, start planning for distributing vaccines. start planning to win this war on the coronavirus. start having our commander in chief talk to our allies and our adversarie adversaries. it is past time. obama gave trump that advantage. every president has done that in the past. there is no excuse for republicans to not start moving forward now. lives depend on it, and they're continued foot dragging is not only wrong, it's un-american. >> and let's be honest, there was no excuse from the very beginning. i mean, they all knew where this was headed. they all saw the vote, but, let's let this play out. now, they never did that before. they didn't do it in the races

that they won in the house. we've talked about that or in the senate. they didn't do it in 2016. they congratulated the winner immediately. but we'll stipulate that and say you have a president right now -- and we should never take this as routine even with this president -- a president who in the middle of a pandemic that is raging out of control where we've just crossed 250,000 deaths as you said, who is holed up at the white house, rage tweeting in all caps that an election was stolen from him. >> oh, my lord. >> how much longer do you let this go on, republicans in the congress? how much longer do you let him do that? how many more people die? how much more space, as you put it, do you give this man? it's time as joe said, and let's go through that reporting in "the washington post" from robert costa that the strategy has now apparently changed from the trump campaign from attempts to disqualify votes to actually disrupting the electoral college. the post is reporting the trump campaign wants to delay certification of the vote long enough to cast doubt on the

legitimacy of joe biden's win and to change the process for selecting electors. two anonymous republican sources tell the post rudy giuliani wants to pressure republican law make makers and officials around the country to stall vote certification and to have republican lawmakers choose electors to disrupt the electoral college meeting next month and that president trump is in favor of this plan. but "the post" also reports the outcome appears impossible. it is against the law in pennsylvania, for example, wisconsin law gives no role to the legislature in choosing presidenti presidential electors and there is little public in the other states to pursuit such a path. according to several people familiar with conversations. giuliani is regularly conferring with former white house strategic adviser steve bannon, one of the architects of trump's 2016 victory. >> wait, is bannon not in jail? >> ironically, joe, he's

currently awaiting trial for fraud, which is what he's trying to mastermind this operation. >> so that's, willie, that's who the white house is going to, giuliani is going to a guy who's convicted of fraud -- or who's being tried for fraud right now? >> yes, who was arrested on a yacht you'll remember this summer and is being tried for fraud and has wished violence on anthony fauci and others most recently. so that's where we are. we should just point out, again, that this stuff is failing again and again and again in the courts. the courts are holding up in the face of these preposterous arguments made by rudy giuliani and others, so they can do what they're going to do. let them do that, but again, where are republicans on capitol hill? where are they right now? how much longer do you let this go on? >> and at this point, where's mitch mcconnell? mitch has said you've got a right to count the votes. i agree. you have a right to bring your legal challenges forward, i agree. but then it's time. the legal challenges we know now

and republicans in congress know, mitch mcconnell knows, the legal challenges have all failed. they're going to fail. there's no way forward for this president. and what's happening and i don't know if this is a country mitch mcconnell wants to live in, but the republican party is doing everything they can do to undermine the integrity of our voting process, of a peaceful transfer of power. this has never happened before. there is no parallel here. this is a first time a party has tried to completely undermine the peaceful transfer of power from the person who we know won the election and they know won the election. now, i will say, mika, there are unfortunately some people who i would personally keep away from household blenders who actually

believe -- they live in their bubble. they go on facebook, and we have friends and relatives like this who go on facebook and they actually believe that there's a deep state conspiracy that intel officers worked with voting machine engineers to mastermind a stolen election for joe biden, and you know what's sad -- and apple balm in their book twilight of democracy said there's a really lazy stereotype about trump supporters, that they're poor, uneducated, basically deplorables, and as ann says. >> you put that in quotes. deplorables. >> as ann says, that's a lazy stereotype often generated by the trump campaign themselves. >> yeah. >> because so many are actually very well-educated, so many know

exactly where they can get real news. so many have no excuse for rummaging around in the fwgutte of facebook to try to find news that just fits their world view, even though they know it's a lie s. a . and i know you have friends who you found out last night who went to yale who believe this is a deep state conspiracy, who believe that spies were running around with sunglasses on and they were whispering in dark shadows of basements to people who make voting machines and the new world order. >> yeah. >> concocted a deep state conspiracy. this is what's happening. no, it's not the, quote, deplorables. it's not the working man from,

you know, oshkosh. >> no, tgs the spoiled rich boy from new york who goes to maine in the summer. >> it's the spoiled rich boy from new york. it's all the richie riches out there who have made tons of money off of donald trump's tax cuts. it's all the people who see their order coming to an end, and so these people who have been given everything by america are now turning on america because they don't like the fact that a guy who cages children lost an election. >> still ahead, a dire warning from one of the nation's top health officials, what the administration's point person on testing is now saying about the pandemic. "morning joe" is back in a moment. in a moment

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we have to have masks. we have to limit indoor crowded spaces. if we do not do that, we will lose tens of thousands of americans by the time the vaccine is out and widely distributed. so i am urging everyone, and you will hear every doc on the task force saying the same thing. this is really crunch time. this is not crying wolf. this is a time that we need to really double down because we're at the most serious and dangerous part of the pandemic that we have been in in the united states until this time. >> a stark warning from u.s. health secretary admiral brett gerard as the united states has now reported more than 250,000 deaths from covid-19. a quarter of a million deaths. that's 19% of the total covid deaths worldwide. this comes nine months after the first u.s. fatality from the virus in early february. covid deaths have increased by 42% over the last four weeks. a pace not seen since mid-august.

the number of new infections also continues to climb at an alarming rate. the seven-day average for new cases is now more than 171,000. however, "the washington post" reports on a model from scientists at columbia university that predicts more than 3 million people in the u.s. are estimated to have active coronavirus infections right now, much higher than the official number since it accounts for those who are undiagnosed. "the post" puts that 3 million figure in perspective reporting it's equal to the number of public school teachers in the united states and the number of truck drivers, willie. >> and as coronavirus infections surge across the country, conditions inside the country's hospitals are now deteriorating. america's front line workers face growing fatigue and frustration, as you can imagine. their overwhelmed hospitals are beginning to convert chapels,

calf tier yawfeterias and waiti into treatment centers. the director of critical care in tennessee told "associated press," we are depressed disheartened and tired to the bone adding that she drives to and from work some days in tears. in el paso, texas, the morgue is so overwhelmed by the number of people dying that inmates from the county's detention facility are being paid $2 an hour to help transport the bodies of victims. last week a medical center in reno, nevada, had to turn a parking garage into a unit for covid-19 patients. in st. louis, metro hospitals have been forced to begin to turn away patients needing care from rural areas, and hospitals in idaho warned this month there's a closing window of opportunity to avoid rationing care. in just the past two weeks, more than 900 mayor clinic staff members in the midwest have been diagnosed with covid-19. the staffing shortage has forced

the medical center to shuffle health practitioners across state lines and to recall retired staff back into service. this sounds an awful lot like what we were going through here in new york city in march. >> now it's spreading across the country, running rampant across the country. >> to get back to the misinformation that we were talking about with the election, i can't tell you how many people that i know and even some friends who said to me when i -- you know, said, hey, maybe we'll get some vaccines coming up next year. oh, well, this is going to all be over on november 3rd. i heard it time and again. >> right. >> that this was just a ploy, this coronavirus. it wasn't real. this was just a ploy to help joe biden in the election. of course the election's over, and we're now facing actually donald trump's own people are saying the greatest risks and

the greatest challenge to this country, and people are literally dying still in denial of this disease and what it can do to them. i mean, two, it's just like the flu? really? a quarter of a million people dead in nine months just like the flu? more people dying from the coronavirus than died in all of world war ii by the end of this, just like the flu? no, not even close to the flu. so stop being a fool. stop looking at lies on facebook, and get your head in the real world. and like we've been asking you to do since march, take care of yourself. take care of your parents. take care of your grandparents. take care of veterans. take care of seniors. take care of those -- >> don't make thanksgiving plans. >> -- with underlying

conditions. be smart. i know you've been trained not to be smart over the past four years, to ignore the truth, to ignore your doctor's advice, to ignore science, to ignore facts. this is beyond serious now. all right? wear a mask. get smart. listen to your doctor. >> and speaking of science, an update on the push for a vaccine. doctors are weighing in on what comes next. we've got a leading voice on that front straight ahead on "morning joe." - [announcer] meet the ninja foodi air fry oven. make family-sized meals fast. and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do things no other oven can, like flip away. the ninja foodi air fry oven, the oven that crisps and flips away.

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let's get to the recent vaccine trials which have shown hopeful results. the drug maker moderna announced on monday that its coronavirus vaccine was 94.5% effective, and pfizer just yesterday announced its coronavirus vaccine is now 95% effective and had no serious side effects. the first set of complete results from a late stage vaccine trial. let's bring in the president and ceo of biotechnology innovation organization, dr. michelle mcmurray-heath. so i would love for you to put into perspective where we stand with vaccines because i worry

that people are mentally jumping there and, yet, if you look at the coronavirus math and you look at the death toll, i think the country, is it fair to say, is in a worse situation than it was when we thought we were at the peak? >> that is completely fair to say, and the easiest way to think about it, meika is that we're close but not all the way there. we have a final mile that is very, very important. but just for a moment, i also wanted to add that as sad and as sobering as it is for us to have reached this tragic milestone of 250,000 lives lost, and as sad as it's going to be for folks to face into our thanksgiving season without gathering with their families, which is incredibly important to maintain our public health guidelines, we also have some reasons to be thankful this thanksgiving season and we at the biotechnology innovation organization are so incredibly grateful to the tens of

thousands of americans who stepped forward to volunteer for the covid vaccine trials, and t for the tens of thousands of scientists who have been braving covid restrictions to continue the reshearch, so we are seeing some amazing results as the fruit of that sacrifice and that work. it's important to say it's really promising that at this point just nine months into the pandemic we have two promising vaccine candidates already that are showing incredible results. you know, the u.s. food and drug administration was hoping for 50 or 60% efficacy, and at this point it looks like we may have some candidates that are above 90% in effectiveness. this is incredibly promising, but there are still important steps to go. >> it is staggering work done by those scientists and by those doctors in such a short period of time, as you know better than anybody. this usually takes years and here we are nine months looking for fda approval. there's a lot of times as you

also point out between here and there for most people to get the vaccine. we are seeing some governors in mid western states who have been reluctant to put in rules now say, yes, we're going to have a mask mandate as their hospitals become overrun. so what would your message be to states across the country, to governors, to mayors about what kind of mitigation efforts should be in place? i know you're going to sound like a broken record because you and other doctors have been saying this for months now, but we have a crisis now, particularly in the heart of the country. what would you say to the people there? >> we cannot say it enough, willie. we have to wear masks. we have to socially distance. we have to avoid unnecessary travel, and we have to sacrifice this holiday season and not have large gatherings or even modest gatherings with our family. we should stay with our households and protect the health care workers that are out there every day. while a vaccine is in sight, we do not have one as of today. we still have not had a full approval of a vaccine candidate yet. we're hoping that in december

the u.s. fda just announced yesterday that december 8th and 9th they're going to be conve convening their public advisory channel to review the moderna and pfizer vaccine data. hopefully late december, early january, our health care workers who will be first in line may have access to a vaccine. but this is far away from the general public really being able to be vaccinated at their local doctor's office, and we have to stay strong. we have to continue to follow the public health guidelines. >> dr. michelle mcmurray-heath, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. coming up, joe's new book on president truman is out next week, and we've got some great historians and writers lined up to talk about it over the coming days. we'll start with two of our friends, jon meacham and david ignatius straight ahead on "morning joe." what is this? -discover...

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over the white house in washington, the flag flies at half-staff as a grief stricken nation mourns the death of franklin delano roosevelt, president of the united states. inside the historic cabinet room vice president harry s. truman takes the oath of office as 32nd president administered by the chief justice. mrs. truman is at his side. president truman asks the full roosevelt cabinet to remain in office expressing his intention to carry on american policies as formulated by the roosevelt administration. ♪ >> general ike comes to washington for a preview of the four years to come. america's next chief of state waves his familiar victory sign only six weeks before he assumes the heavy burdens of presidential office. the motorcade enters the white house grounds for the history making meeting between the

outgoing and incoming chief executives. it is here the reins of government will change hands. as america closes ranks after a hard fought campaign. >> president truman meeting with then president-elect dwight eisenhower to ensure the peaceful transition of power who years before took the oath of office immediately after fdr passed away in 1945. joining us now, the host of msnbc's "morning joe," joe scarborough. >> i'm a big fan of your show. but joe should interrupt you less. >> whose new book "saving freed freedom: truman, the cold war and the fight for western civilization" comes out this coming tuesday. also joining us for this discussion, we have columnist and associate editor for "the washington post" david ignatius and historian and rogers chair in the american presidency at

vanderbilt university, jon meacham who we should mention unofficially advises president-elect joe biden, and joe, my mother loved the book. it's a great book. you take a look at president truman's efforts to build an international coalition against the soviet union after the end of the second world war. a legacy that continues to influence american foreign policy today. so what can president-elect joe biden learn from the truman presidency? >> i mean, that's a great question because a lot of people are talking about fdr right now, but really, the incoming president should look to harry truman because the united states is facing a world order that's in crisis. we've got europe shutting down again. you've got the economic growth of the past generation shattered over the past nine months, jobless claims. we've just learned over the past five minutes are going up again for the first time in several months, western democracy is in retreat and hungary and poland across parts of europe, and we

once again have an emergent global power that is making the united states an uncomfortable partner in a bipolar world, and that's of course what harry truman faced. he also faced the challenge of finishing world war ii and bringing global order out of that terrible conflict while, of course, president biden's challenge is going to be to win the war against a global pandemic. it shattered our world economy, and by the time he reaches office will probably have killed 3/4 of the number of americans who died in all of world war ii. so biden should look to truman's example. i've talked to jon meacham about this as far as the parallels and the examples, but biden should look to that, and he faces this world in chaos. if he's going to prevail, though, he should look to truman's best qualities, candor. i mean, everybody that worked with harry truman knew he was a very frank person.

just ask music reviewers for "the washington post" who gave bad reviews to his daughter. he took responsibility unlike the current occupant of the white house, the man who said the buck stops here, harry truman believed it, and he account aed that waacted that way. he also surrounded himself with the best and brightest minds available, despite the fact that he graduated his highest graduation achievement was from spaulding commercial college in kansas city, he surrounded himself with general george marshal, dean atchison, a young clark clifford, the best and brightest minds not only of their generation but maybe over the past century, and also most importantly, bipartisanship. it's not en vogue right now, and yes, truman could be cantankerous, he would attack republicans, but like joe biden he built bipartisan alliances throughout his time in the senate. so when he was forced to do what

nobody thought was possible, confronting stalin and the soviets, he knew he could only pass the truman doctrine, the marshal plan, nato and the other sweeping agenda items that would forever change america's place in the world stage, could only pass that through a republican congress with bipartisan support. and that was no easy task. he had been president, put into the presidency, republicans were sick and tired of being in the minority throughout fdr's entire term, so they didn't want to deal with this democrat, but truman figured out a way to make arthur vandenburg and even mr. republican, the famed isolati isolationist robert taft do the same and it made all the difference not only in his time, but in our time as well. >> such sustaining accomplishments and yet, he wasn't respected in the moment of his presidency. often people kind of chided him. i'll take the next question for jon meacham, you got a question for joe?

>> congressman, i wanted to ask you to think about truman's -- you were anticipating this a little bit, his sense of politics as an art, not a science. he was -- came out of the missouri machine world, always understood on my reading of history, understood that everybody has their equities, right? it's like james baker, the secretary of state, that peter baker and susan glasser have just written about so well, understanding that politics is not a zero sum game at home or abroad, that you have to acknowledge the realities that the forces that face the other person. i'm guessing that truman learned that in missouri and honed it in the senate. but is that the correct analysis of how he saw the world not as

this chess game, but as a political undertaking that was huge and not abstract. >> yeah, not abstract at all. he understood. he had to scratch and claw for everything he got. he ran effectively for county commissioner, got elected the first time, and then lost in his next race. when he wanted to run for senate, the party machine only let him do that after the first four choices of the party boss refused to run, and truman had to scratch, fight, and claw throughout his entire career. when he got elected, he was greeted with the "new york times" dismissing him as a rube. but he spent the next six years working day and night, carrying water for fdr's new deal only to find out in 1940 that fdr wasn't even going to endorse him,

wouldn't campaign for him, wouldn't endorse him. washington expected him to lose. he was -- you can't name a race that harry truman ran where he wasn't the underdog, even when he was an incumbent senator, and yet, he did win, and when he went up there, he worked with republicans and democrats alike, even when the republicans were in the minority, did extraordinary things with the truman commission where he before world war ii, he rooted out waste and fraud and abuse in the pentagon. it wasn't a very popular thing. fdr didn't appreciate this senator from missouri showing how his administration had been wasting money, but he did it, he worked with republicans and democrats alike. because he understood that politics, a lot like lbj, he understood that politics was the art of the possible, and he saw

it firsthand in the united states senate, and because he had to fight not just republicans but also often democrats in his own party to get things accomplished, when truman became president of the united states, he had an education like lbj that far surpassed any ivy league education that many of his opponents could have gotten, which i think is interesting, david ignatius. you look at the presidents who have been most successful since -- in the post-war era. you have harry truman who graduate ed spr spaulding commercial college. you have lbj who was southwest -- i think it was southwest texas teachers college. you have ronald reagan who graduated from eureka college. so when you hear joe biden on stage talking about not needing an ivy league degree to be successful, well, our history shows that, and truman knew it.

>> joe, i wanted to ask you about one of the things that really intrigued me in the book, and that is the way in which harry truman as you say, this strange little man from missouri made the united states truly a force for internationalism, for connection with other countries. americans were exhausted after world war ii, they'd fought long and hard. they were sick of the world's problems, but harry truman found a way to say you need to stand up. what happens in greece, in turkey, in these far away countries matters to our future. and he said that especially to people in your party, in the republican party which did then and still does have an isolationist tendency. how did he do that? how did he make america internationalists in this story that you tell in the book? >> well, it sounds a bit monotonous, but i did -- one of

the reasons i went into great detail about how he did that legislatively, how he did that politically, is because that's something that doesn't happen anymore. we don't have regular order in congress. we don't have presidents going up to the hill. we don't have presidents sending their people up to their hill to hold dozens of hearings, hundreds of hearings, and that's what harry truman did. again, perhaps, it was forged out of the truman commission where he held so many hearings trying to root out waste, fraud and abuse in the pentagon and defense spending so we could be ready to fight hitler in world war ii. he did the same thing as he was building alliances with republicans, and he made sure from the start to call in arthur vandenburg whor had been a fame isolationist, and to call him in and call in other republicans and he worked with them from the

very beginning. anybody that's ever read anything about harry truman's campaigns, he was a fighter. he gave them hell as he said. give them hell, harry. and yet, he put that aside and in so doing, he figured out how to be the architect of a new world order that we would inherit that would also make america the preeminent power on the world stage for 70 years. >> so let's go to jon meacham for the next question. meacham. >> let's look at home. one of the things that i think marks a great president, and i think you and david would agree, at least part of this, is when a president challenges the pre-existing views of their base and their supporters. so whether it's nixon going to china, lbj and race, or harry

truman and race. and he comes from a provincial state. as i recall he has a great aunt who wouldn't visit him in the white house because there was a lincoln bedroom and she was a die hard confederate sympathizer. he splits the democratic party in 1948 because of steps towards civil rights. talk about that journey. >> well, it was a difficult and painful journey for truman, as you said. his family had confederate sympathies. his mother and father both did. you talked about his aunt, and it was -- again, harry truman got attacked from all sides. you just look at the '48 race, and the fact that he was willing to move the country forward on race issues. that, of course, had the dixie crowds and strom thurman breaking away from him. so he had that battle on his right.

on his left, of course, we all know about henry wallace who was offended that harry truman was confronting the soviet union, confronting stalin, did not believe it was necessary. you had -- so you had progressives on the left putting up henry wallace to run against harry truman. you had segregationists on the right putting up the senator from south carolina to run as a dix dixiecrat against him, and then of course you had him having to run against his republican opponent as well, and of course the reason why that image of dewy beating truman is such an iconic image and the reason why the chicago daily tribune felt so comfortable in printing that up the night before is because nobody expected harry truman to win that race because he had two

democrats running against him and a republican. he had been pretty unpopular as president following fdr. as truman once said, heroes know when to die. that's what he said of fdr. and he inherited a mess and yet he made the best of it and ended up winning that re-election. and shocking the political world and, really, i would still call it the greatest political upset of all time in american politics. >> what a great read. especially for the times we're in now. jon meacham and david ignatius, thank you very much. over the next few days, we continue these discussions on joe's new book with historians and pulitzer prize-winning authors. joe, congratulations on the new book. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe."

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enforcement on people here illegally than the well-being of lawful immigrants and -- >> okay. that was white house adviser steven miller back in 2017, previewing the administration's zero tolerance approach. it came to include the separation of children from their parents. joining us now, correspondent jacob soboroff with his new reporting along with julia ainsley and geoff bennett on how the white house killed a deal to pay for mental health care for migrant families separated at the border. jacob, another dark chapter in this story that you've been reporting on from the beginning. flesh out the details a little bit. how did this policy come in to be and who squashed it? >> we just keep learning more, willie, about the fallout from the zero tolerance separation policy. we talked about the profound trauma that was imposed upon these thousands of children by the trump administration. you've heard me say before, physicians for human rights calls it torture. the american academy of

pediatrics calls it government sanctioned child abuse. the systematic separation. and almost from the immediate point when the policy ended there were lawyers who sued the government on behalf of the children to get mental health services. much-needed mental health services for these kids. and over nine months, painstakingly, a settlement agreement was negotiated between the trump administration, the department of justice and the lawyers, mostly here in los angeles and literally at the very end of these negotiations when the justice department and almost entirely, in fact, entirely, unanimously is the word we were told by sources with knowledge of this negotiation, signed off on this agreement to get therapy, millions of dollars of therapy for these separated children traumatized by the administration. the white house counsel's office, directed by steven miller, according to sources we've spoken with, killed this settlement agreement. and ultimately it resulted in a delay of many months. almost half a year of the services getting to these kid that needed it so badly. you can talk to any of the

experts. they'll tell you this trauma is not compounded on a monthly basis or yearly basis but almost minute by minute. when this stuff goes unaddressed, it only makes the trauma these children suffered far worse. now we know the services that they were entitled to that a judge ordered them to get were killed because of the white house and steven miller. >> so makon, it just takes your breath away. as you say, the justice department signed off unanimously. william barr's justice department signed off unanimously on this. we're talking about a rounding error for mental health coverage for children who have been separated from their parents in these massive budgets. what was the argument against it beyond abject cruelty? >> they won't say. and, frankly, what could it be, willie, other than trying to spite these children from getting the services they were entitled to because of what the government ultimately did to them. and you said it. i hrtd julia ainsley my colleague reported this as well

as geoff bennett this morning. the department of justice in an unusual move opposed the trump administration, the white house's stance on this. usually we see the justice department and the white house walking lockstep. but the justice department wanted this to happen and it was killed from the white house. and the consequences, you know, we continue to see the fallout to this day. go look at any one of the children that went through this policy. i've said it to you before. but the father and son i read about in my book once asked me. if you see trump, ask him why he traumatized us psychologically. this is something they'll have to reckon with for the rest of their lives. >> real quick, jacob, are these kids getting that mental counseling they need now? >> i'm glad you asked. yes, thank you. the judge ordered they get this counseling starting in march 2020. about 500 of them, up to 5,000 have been contacted by the administration and they are starting the process of getting the services to the kids. >> it's too late, but thank goodness they're getting it now. jacob soboroff, another amazing piece of reporting from you, julia ainsley and geoff bennett.

thanks. we appreciate it. guys? >> all right. thank you, jacob, for that. i think we leave this morning, joe, i'll pass it to you, with the huge number that the united states has surpassed as of now. 250,000 dead from the coronavirus. a president pa theically hanging on to power that he doesn't have anymore because he lost the election and refusing to conduct a peaceful transition that would allow for both the biden administration that's incoming and the trump administration to work together to mitigate death. >> and, willie, the report from jacob just proves again that with the trump administration, cruelty is the point. you know, we had tom ricks on talking about checks and balances. and he quoted silicon valley. he said, it's not a bug. it's a feature.

well, the cruelty in the trump white house is not a bug. it's a feature. they are deliberately being cruel as a matter of policy to make children suffer. and they think that stops people from crossing the border. actually, it doesn't. and it's cruelty for no good reason, willie. >> separating children from their families and then not providing care for them after you've done that. staggering. guys, we'll see you tomorrow. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up our coverage right now. hey, steph. >> hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it's thursday, november 19th. i'm here in new york city. let's get smarter. we are one week out from thanksgiving, and there are hundreds of thousands of americans that are facing the awful reality of a holiday without a loved one. maybe more than one. over a quarter million americans have now died from coronavirus. on wednesday alone, we got word of more than 1800 de