true, even if they're inconevent. if you don't do it, i don't like the outcome. >> jim vandehei, thank you for that cheerful end of our show today. but it's always great to see you. great points and a great conversation. and just to pick up on where we left off there with jim, a final thought from me this morning. what we just were talking about is exactly what the biden team is starting to worry about, what democrats are starting to worry about and what some republicans are starting to worry about, that a biden administration is going to be hamstrung because half of the country simply doesn't believe in what they are doing, that the truth is going to remain disputed and that is ultimately the consequence of what we are seeing this president do and republicans enable here in this period after the election, but before the nation. thanks for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning. don't go anywhere because "morning joe" starts right now. so let's start with the

specifics. pennsylvania -- >> this is more than nixon ever sweated. >> our own state department was rocked not only by the revelation, but from the highly unusual persistence of the state press corps. >> they don't want to have a count of that. >> just how nervous -- huh? >> if she's working for the -- i assume if she's working for the city of detroit. >> it's pretty hot under these lights, huh, seinfeld? pretty hot. >> influence of communist money. >> one, two, three. ♪ ♪ let your soul go, just let it shine through ♪ >> in the states that we have indicated in red -- >> spray-on hair. guaranteed to cover bald spots. >> it's the reason why he probably didn't have to go out

and campaign. >> it's vast, it's safe and it's acid free because bald no more is made up of a secret blend. >> a few questions. >> yeah. >> is there -- >> are you okay? because you're sweating pretty profusely. >> no, i'm fine. >> block certification -- >> if so, when? >> i'm starting to sweat. stop sweating, i have to stop sweating. can't you see it dripping down my forehead? oh, she looked at my hair line. she thinks i'm bald. >> our "morning joe" producers' take on the insane, very sweaty,

press conference from the president's personal attorney rudy giuliani and the group of lawyers who call themselves a group of quote, wait for it, elite strike force team. they threw out one baseless accusation after another about alleged voter fraud with no proof and whether it was the highly -- can we take this down. whether it was the highly ridiculous or incredibly dangerous or both, it's up for debate. now the former head of department of homeland security cyber security unit, chris krebs, who is former, because trump fired him by tweet this week because krebs told the truth about the election and being safe and secure. he tweeted, quote, that press conference was the most dangerous one hour and 45 minutes of television in american history and possibly the craziest. if you don't know what i'm talking about, you are lucky.

>> well, you know -- >> starting on a gross note this morning. >> willie, in the words of i think it was the father in the christmas story about the b-b gun, it's all fun and games until someone gets their eye shot out. in this case, this is all crazy until -- >> fake when you're sweating like that. >> you step back and you understand what republican senators are finally starting to say out loud. that regardless of the lunacy of this -- of all of this, that at the bottom of all of this chaos, when you sort of sort through the crazed circus atmosphere around this, you have a president of the united states who's aggressively doing everything he can do to undermine american democracy. republican senators are finally saying that out loud and while

the actions themselves may not be dangerous because they're going to lead nowhere, the fact that we have a president, a commander in chief who cares so little about american democracy, something we have known all along, and said on this show for the past four years but the fact that he doesn't care about american democracy and is willing to try to get people to not certify free and fair elections, try to -- as he did -- as he's done for actually four years, try to talk about the american elections that are rigged, that he has baseless lawsuits, that he can't even get qualified attorneys to file because they would be sanctioned by the court and now inviting legislators from michigan to come to the white house to try to pressure them in to stealing

votes. it's all very pathetic. it's all very unprecedented and at the same time it's all very dangerous because he is trying his damnedest to subvert american democracy. >> he is. they said it at that clown show of a press conference yesterday out loud one of the attorneys said we need to overturn this election, we need to change the votes in the free and fair election. i would point out that press conference that yes, was funny in its own way was a rudy giuliani was sweating the hair dye down his cheek the whole time, at the headquarters of the republican national committee, this is not in front of a landscaping business in north philly, not a guy posting something to youtube or to "q" or four chan, eight chan, this was a guy purportedly

representing the president, he and the attorneys behind him calling for an election to be overturned. as you point out, joe, they're losing everywhere in court. they're 1 for 30. might be worse now. they probably lost a couple while we were sleeping. the other important point is they're making different arguments publicly. everything they said at that rnc press conference yesterday does not line up with what they're filing in court. they're not claiming fraud when they file in court in pennsylvania. when they file in court in georgia, in arizona, because they know that would be a lie. they know they don't have evidence to prove that. this is a show. it's a complete show. the problem as we have been saying for a couple of weeks is they have the attention of about 73 million people who voted for donald trump and who are open to believing that yes, this election was stolen from the president. and number two, that it should be overturned as they said explicitly yesterday. >> and the thing is, as we said

yesterday as well, don't kid yourselves in to believing that it's just people that have fallen off of turnip trucks. >> no. >> that are believing this. they are -- they are people who graduated from yale law school. they are people who are ceos of companies. they are people who are very educated. they don't fit the stereotype that trump wants you to believe that don't believe the elites. there's some elites in here too who have moneyed interests to have donald trump re-elected president of the united states. it didn't happen. and now some of these people are actually buying in to some of these bizarre conspiracy theories that nobody believes. again, here's the tell. all right? rudy giuliani, donald trump, the rest of trump's gang are lying

through their teeth. mark meadows, they're all liars. all lying through their teeth and they're telling you things happen that never happened. and the tell is, as rudy giuliani refuses to do, as willie told you, they won't say it in court. you know why? because if they say it in court, and it's not the truth, they'll get sanctioned. maybe if somebody testifies and lies about it, they'll actually get arrested for committing perjury. so that's the real tell here. there's another tell though and it has to do with mitch mcconnell. and it has to do with the republicans. who we gave the benefit of the doubt to at the beginning of this process. even though none of them deserved the benefit of the doubt. >> well -- >> and we said this. excuse me, i'll just finish and then you can go. we said this to mitch mcconnell.

and it was okay, we'll go along with you. count all the votes, you're right. you're right, all the votes need to be counted and yes, then if you -- despite the fact that you know, mitch mcconnell, that joe biden is going to be president of the united states, because the numbers, the advantage is so big that trump can never catch up, then go ahead and go through the legal process. if that makes you feel better, if that makes your base feel better, go through the legal process. we have done that. they have -- if they had any credible allegations of widespread fraud and abuse, it would have come forward. but they don't. they keep losing in court. they keep saying things outside of court that they refuse to say inside of court. so the question, mitch, is how much longer are you going to hold american democracy in suspended animation? how much longer are you going to

undermine what really does lay at the heart of american democracy and that is the peaceful transfer of power. something that has defined this country since george washington decided to get on his horse and go back to mt. vernon instead of serving a third term. peacefully handing over power or john adams losing the presidency. and in 1801 doing something that americans weren't sure a sitting president who lost would do. turn over power, but he did. to thomas jefferson, and so has every president, mr. majority leader, for the last 220 years. and do you really want 220 years to have historians and have

students see you and rudy giuliani ensnarled in a conspiracy to undermine american democracy? let me say this, this isn't part of the shock opera. i'm not shockra stan or deeply saddened. i know who's going to be president on january 20, 2021, and so do you. but the question is will you continue to be part of the conspiracy that while not changing the outcome of this election will undermine tens of millions of americans' confidence in american democracy? you know, mika heard me say this time and time again during president obama's policy and i didn't support a lot of the policies he was pushing forward,

but i heard rush limbaugh say he was rooting against barack obama. i said time and again, you can't cheer against the president of the united states without cheering against america. that i didn't cheer against presidents, even if i disagreed with them, i prayed for them. because i was praying for america. in this case, mitch, this isn't about undermining american's faith in joe biden. you know this. it's what makes this so sick, mitch. this isn't about undermining americans' faith in joe biden one man, one party. it's about undermining america's faith in democracy. in the rule of law. and that's what you're doing right now. the gig is up.

it's time to tell the president that he and rudy and their confederacy of dunces need to stop making fools of themselves and let the next commander in chief get ready to protect and defend this country. let the next president of the united states start preparing to distribute vaccines, to tens of millions, to hundreds of millions of americans. we are way past time and the president you're running cover for, he's doing nothing but tweeting conspiracy theories and trying to undermine american democracy. enough, mitch. enough. >> and this show has so far been an emotional roller coaster and we haven't even gotten to georgia. but continuing in that bizarre news conference yesterday, rudy giuliani along with the rest of

trump's legal team left no stone unturned when it came to assigning unfounded blame. the list and it's a long one includes china, antifa, george soros, two presidents of venezuela, one dead and one living. big tech, including a specific web server from germany. multiple major u.s. cities. american citizens who volunteered at polling precincts. the country of argentina. somehow, the late chicago mayor richard daley. the country of cuba. two voting machine companies and a british baron. i have no words, willie. >> yeah. i mean, again, it was a clown show, but unfortunately you have to say it's a clown show that a lot of people in this country listening to and starting to believe because the president of the united states has joined in

the clown show. he's now calling, canvassing board members in wayne county, michigan, urging her to change her vote, to get her to decertify -- you can't do that. that vote is already in. inviting republican lawmakers from michigan to the white house to sit them down and talk. the problem with that is there's no provision for the state of michigan for any lawmaker to go in and change the free and fair vote of the people of michigan so it's a show, but it's a dangerous show and as joe points out it falls again to one senator effectively, one republican senator, to speak out. in a statement on twitter, utah senator mitt romney again, mitt romney said, quote, having failed to make a plausible case of widespread fraud or conspiracy before any court of law, the president has now resorted to overt pressure on state and local officials to subvert the will of the people and overturn the election. it is difficult to imagine a

worse, more undemocratic action by a sitting american president. that's a statement from mitt romney. in a statement to nbc news, nebraska senator ben sasse said, quote, what matters is what the president's lawyers are saying in court and when trump campaign lawyers have stood before courts under oath they have repeatedly not alleged grand fraud. joni ernst challenged the baseless claims about the wrongdoing put forward yesterday, specifically the accusations by one of the president's lawyers, a woman named sidney powell. >> we believe in the integrity of our election system which is why i do believe that if there is fraud out there, it should be brought to the courts' attention. >> sure. >> and the truth should be brought forward.

i think all of us agree on that, but to insinuate that democrats and republican candidates paid to throw off this election i think is absolutely outrageous. >> so joe, where that fury is coming from from senator ernst, you had one of the president's attorneys kind of firing a warning shot at republicans saying you may have stolen this election too, we're coming for you, effectively a threat if you don't get on board, but it falls to mitt romney to be the conscience of the republicans in the senate and what is extraordinary is it's considered extraordinary that any senator would speak out in defense of democracy. is it really difficult to criticize what president trump and rudy giuliani are saying here? does it really take courage to do that? or is it the obvious and easiest thing you can do? it's mitt romney leading the way. we'll see if anyone else follows. >> mitt romney said what every

republican should be saying right now. we're grateful he did say that. ben sasse, very grateful that ben sasse said again something that many of us look at as being obvious, but you know what? regardless, i'll just say it -- >> it is obvious. >> i'm grateful that he's saying what needs to be said. joni ernst is right, it's outrageous and i'm glad she is saying it's outrageous. republicans, it is interesting all along you can go state by state and you can see that donald trump is attacking everybody. it's crazed and it's chaotic. he's attacking republicans as well as democrats. he attacked the republican secretary of state in georgia because donald trump lost georgia, right? right? this is like a fat kid getting up to the plate and striking out and then going back and bullying somebody on the bench and

pushing him around saying you made me strike out. what, i was sitting over here chewing gum. that's exactly what he's doing and then you go up to pennsylvania and you actually have pat toomey, a republican senator in pennsylvania while and these court cases are going on. nothing is going to come of this. this is going to lead us nowhere. you have scott walker in wisconsin saying what is true. that a recount there is not going to change anything. of course, it didn't stop donald trump. he couldn't help himself from having recounts in the counties where there were the most black voters. but donald trump is attacking everybody. >> yeah. >> because he came up short. donald trump is attacking everybody because he had the worst debate in the history of american politics. donald trump is attacking everybody because he ran the dumbest campaign in the history of politics. instead of talking about the economy, he would talk about conspiracy theories. instead of talking about jobs,

he would talk about -- >> or the virus. >> he would talk about how we needed to arrest his opponent. instead of talking about the coronavirus, he would talk, again, conspiracy theories. he the campaign. and now he's blaming republicans and democrats alike and i've got to say if you're a sitting republican, representative, and you can't attack the president for undermining american democracy and get re-elected, you just are so pathetic at your job you don't deserve a vote. >> and also just from trump's point of view because you can always -- we know him well. you can get in his brain and know what he's thinking right now. this is such ugly flailing and he knows it, it's a bad show. trump likes to have his reality shows, his pammangeants and it' colorful and beautiful and what

happened yesterday, i can't say what it was. because it's not a word i can say on television, but it wasn't a good show. no one would want to watch this again. i couldn't even watch it as we're bumping into it at the top of the show today. stop, alex. alex. >> that's what it was -- >> stop right now. >> that's what it was. by the way, that's the reflextion of ivanka and jared and they're sitting back and sending out beauty shots of landscapes, i don't know what they're sending out beauty shots of while her father is doing everything he can to undermine american democracy. >> in the ugliest way possible. >> by the way, 306 electoral votes and more votes -- more votes than any candidate has ever received in the history of

this constitutional republic and yet, the name trump is going to be synonymous for generations to come, for undermining american democracy. trying to undermine the results of an election and the wishes of 80 million people. >> and dripping the spray-on hair. so let's bring in former chairman of the republican national committee and an msnbc political analyst, michael steele. nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early," kasie hunt as well. >> so we have seen mitt romney do from time to time, which is tell the truth when no other republican will do it. ben sasse is starting to do it. joni ernst is talking about how outrageous this is. do you think any other republicans are moving up to that line to kindly ask the president of the united states

to stop subverting american democracy? >> i do think they're getting there, joe, but the point at the top of the show which is the right one. we're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of this and we repeated over and over again it's within the president's right to pursue the legal chances, bring it to the courts but it's clear they haven't. frankly, the conversations i had with republicans before the election where they said privately we're no willing to let this president take the republican party over the cliff and then we'll accept the results. they haven't been following through on that and i -- you know, i think that sasse and romney are taking that step and that the two of them have developed reputations to allow them to kind of take the lead on that. and i also think that what they said yesterday about raising questions about democrats and republicans in those election results is something that's

likely to move some republicans. but every day that goes by here, i mean, i remember republicans would complain to me about the hold that a news organization like breitbart had over their day, had the capacity to make their day really bad. what is happening now is the president is taking a much expanded group of people who are reading a much expanded universe of news outlets like that and he is grabbing control of what -- of their reality and setting that reality and the longer that goes on and the more we see that the harder it's going to be for republicans to grab it back and to be leaders of a party that looks more like the republican party that we knew in the early 2000s. they have struck the deal with the devil all along and they don't know how to get out of it and it will get worse the more this is allowed to continue. you know, the other piece i

don't understand about this, joe, is there's a conference call yesterday with all senators about operation warp speed, the vaccine, you know, which we are all praying for and waiting on. it was clear from me talking to some of the senators they think that piece of this is going pretty well, that the administration seems to actually have a handle on it. that this could play out very, very well and that it could be if donald trump wanted it to be, a huge success story for him. but they're not going to talk to the biden transition team about it so they're risking all of it. i mean he could claim this massive success that helps millions of americans and instead he seems to be potentially putting it -- risking it all on the way out the door for what we saw yesterday from rudy giuliani. >> well, also, i mean the fight to get to the vaccines is one thing and your characterization of how it's going may be correct, but the mitigation of the virus and the effort to uniformly bring all the numbers

down across the country, michael steele, are an abomination worldwide. we are number one in deaths. testing still stinks, nobody can get proper testing. people wait for tests. there are nurses who can't get tested. there are people who get false positive and false negatives. how many deaths are we into this? 254,000 almost and that to kasie's point is the back drop that the republicans are still holding on by their fingertips? >> yeah. the cold reality remains covid-19. at the end of the day, the death toll goes up. cases of covid-19 increase. the concern about the distribution process regarding a

vaccine becomes more and more of a national discussion. you know, we're seeing these pharmaceutical companies come out with, you know, their trials are successful, their processes are moving along, mika, in a very professional way and they're letting the public know where they are. people are getting excited as kasie just noted, but it falls flat and runs into the trumpian wall. the republicans won't do an end run around the president to help joe biden get this thing up and running at the beginning of his term. we don't know just yet -- yes, you'll probably have 20 million vaccines available for, you know, the high end -- those who need it like nurses and doctors, those caring for the sick on the

daily basis, but we're not sure what the distribution process will like like and this remains big issues. as we end this year we began this year with covid-19 and it has been the thing that this administration and republicans especially in the senate have not been -- not had an answer for and the american people unfortunately are still waiting at 253,000 dead. >> yes. yesterday, a member of the advisory board on this topic, dr. michael osterholm will look back in a few weeks and wish we were only at 253,000 days, well, forget several weeks, it took a couple of days. according to the nbc news tally overnight, it blew past the single day record from last friday. and 1,945 new deaths were

reported yesterday. that's the most since back on may 7th. mika mentioned the problems with testing, testing sites across the country reporting long lines that can stretch for hours. the front page of this morning's "new york times" features a photograph of cars wrapped around dodger stadium in los angeles which is a drive-thru testing site. they reported new cases, a new daily record for the state. here is footage outside of a testing site in madison, wisconsin, on tuesday. wow. you can see hundreds of cars lined up there. laboratories are warning that shortages of key supplies will likely create more delays in getting test results out. joining us now from the brookings institution, dr.

kavita patel, an msnbc medical contributor. we heard yesterday from the cdc that said please avoid travel for thanksgiving a week out and we got the first news briefing in four months from the task force, the white house task force. we saw dr. birx and dr. fauci. what did you take away from what they said yesterday and what's your view of the incredibly stark numbers we just saw? >> willie, good morning to everyone. i think the takeaway from yesterday was actually both an incredible dire warning about thanksgiving, about the numbers we can expect and then also a ray of sunshine if we can actually do what we need to do. dr. fauci spoke about the extraordinary and kasie mentioned it the extraordinary progress we have made with vaccines from operation warp speed, as well as global cooperation. but a vaccine does not mean that you can actually just kind of breathe a sigh of relief and go about your merry ways. it really does mean as dr. birx

said yesterday that we have to do things today and change behaviors today in order to be able to have a light at the end of the tunnel and benefit from the vaccines and, willie, looking at the pictures i can't help but shudder in fear that some of the people in line are actually doing testing so that they can go and celebrate thanksgiving. i know that's a lot of what my patients are saying and that is frankly a big concern. >> yeah. the task force of the cdc was clear yesterday. small groups, within your own household and do not even travel at this point for thanksgiving. that's about as serious as that warning could be. great news on the vaccine front, but for most people that's at least six months away to get that. so we have six months let's say from here to there where anything can happen if we don't have further mitigation efforts. from your point of view, based on the numbers that we're seeing and the trajectory you say we're

on and that we are on, should we go further nationally or at least state by state in terms of stay at home orders, for example, mask mandates, what would you like to see? >> yeah, this is absolutely the conversation that i hope every governor again, because we have no national strategy, what we did not hear yesterday is a bold announcement of what we can count on at the national level. nationally we need to accept that wearing a mask can make a difference, especially if you're going to go and celebrate thanksgiving with people who are not normally in your household. here's something that i think is incredibly controversy that w l will -- that's happening, we're closing the schools instead of the restaurants and where people are getting together. i would not penalize the younger children where we have not been having as much of an outbreak as we have in other settings that

people are moving towards indoors. shops and restaurants. and then i really hope that on a policy level that we can resurrect some stimulus funding because these businesses, especially during a holiday season are dying on the vine and again it's all unnecessary. we have had zero ability to offer small business owners a way to have reliable testing to even keep their employees safe. that's what we've decided to do in this country. >> so that's what i want to ask you about in terms of testing, dr. patel. as a former white house health and policy director i know the biden team says on day one that the president plans to invoke the defense production act on things like testing. these lines that we're seeing, football fields of cars, people waiting for hours and hours, sometimes days to get a false result on testing is a massive, almost the number one impediment to mitigation because as they're

waiting in line they're missing work. if they have work. they're exposing themselves to people as they're waiting for the tests and the test results that sometimes take days to come. for those lucky enough, maybe they can buy a test but it's not like that for the rest of america who is in this situation right now which is so unacceptable. had president trump invoked the dpa on testing would we be in this situation right now? >> no. mika, you're outraged, i can't tell how much that outrage is felt by so many health care workers around the country. here's something to wrap our brains around. we were able to develop at least two highly efficacious vaccines and cheaper than it is to get a pcr nasal swab. put your head around that. that's unacceptable that somehow we have decided that the ability

to offer employers a way to open safer to keep schools open, testing does not replace masks and prevention whatsoever. but it certainly could be a critical piece in finding those asymptomatic carriers. the majority of people we know who are either infected or are able to transmit the coronavirus right now. if we had reliable, cheap and easy testing it doesn't have to be perfect, mika. if we could do something every three days, we know that that's probably the time period where we could catch the majority of cases and this is just a system failure on all levels, the cdc initially relying on flawed testing in the beginning and then again, no national invocation of the defense production act and no pressure to try to identify how we can get testing especially to the hardest hit communities. black and brown communities where we still have really pathetic testing rates and

turnaround times. >> the stupidity and the needless loss of life here is mind boggling. dr. kavita patel, thank you. well, the sad thing it's not really stupidity. >> it's willful malpractice? >> it's willful negligence. willie, everything that's happening right now was warned of six months ago. nine months ago. i'll say it now. i was on the phone with zeke emanuel back in march and ari emanuel back in march. zeke had been talking to the president, i said what are you saying to him? i said it will be really bad, mr. president, it's got to be really bad, you've got to get ready. as bad as it's going to be in the spring, it's going to be worse in the fall. that was a warning donald j.

trump got in march. and we heard every doctor tell him the same thing. every medical expert tell him the same thing. and of course you had the press conference where donald trump assured us that this would not come back in the fall. dr. fauci said yes, it's going to come back in the fall and health care systems are going to be pressed. remember all the times that donald trump said we have the best testing in the world, we have more testing. did you see that picture of those cars lined up around dodger stadium? the best testing in the world, not even close because he refused time and time again to implement the defense production act. remember donald trump saying it was one person coming in from china and then saying it was 15 and then saying we're going to be fine in the fall, well the fall is here and look --

>> look at this. >> look at the lines of people waiting to get a test. it's worse now than ever before. just as donald trump was warned back in march by zeke emanuel. >> and many others. >> just like he was warned by anthony fauci on live television in a press conference. so here we are coming up to 200,000 new infections a day, over 250,000 americans dead. and that number is skyrocketing. a shortage of testing, our hospital system at a breaking point. this was not stupidity, this was willful negligence. it's on donald trump and it's on everybody that's worked for donald trump. it's on everybody inside the white house and it's on every

republican that kept their mouth shut because they didn't want to insult the president. oh, yeah, now they don't want to insult the president while he's trying to actively undermine american democracy. this past year, they haven't wanted to upset the president because, well, he was lying about the coronavirus and a lot of stupid people, really ignorant people believed him. that's why we actually saw the governor of iowa mocking a mask mandate a couple of weeks before the election. but after the election, now suddenly, a mask mandate is good science. willie, this is willful negligence and it is -- it is party politics at its worst. >> it is. you don't have to take zeke emanuel's word for it. we heard it in the president's own voice on those tapes from bob woodward. he said he knew how serious it was. he knew it was deadly. he called it the plague but he said he wanted to play it down. as you point out, there are

press conferences we can roll out the tape where the president would get up in that white house briefing room and say it's not coming back in the fall, this is the worst of it. he'd move aside, dr. fauci would say it's coming back in the fall. this is coming back in the fall so we are right where everyone told us we'd be. the difference between march and now, eight months, we haven't done anything to stop what's happening right now. as bad as it feels right now, whenever everyone can look back on it, hopefully we get through this sooner rather than later, the fact that our federal government led by president trump stepped aside and let this virus burn through the country it's unforgivable. it's happening right now and you hear the urgency at that briefing yesterday. you hear the urgency from the cdc. you hear the urgency from the doctors who come on our show. dr. osterholm yesterday said this is the most serious health moment we have had in this

country since 1918 and we need to start acting like it is. >> really well put, willie. thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," president-elect joe biden is growing impatient with president trump's refusal to cooperate in a peaceful transition of power. could we see any legal action from the biden team? plus, georgia completes its full hand recount and president trump has managed to lose the state twice. twice. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. (soft chimes)

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well, that was certainly a colorful news conference from rudy giuliani but it was light on facts. so much what he said is not true or has been thrown out in court and rudy giuliani opened by making the bold and baseless claim that a lot of this alleged nationwide voter fraud all came from one centralized place. he called it a nationwide conspiracy. and yet, he failed to provide any hard evidence to back up that one specific claim especially when you're dealing with a claim that really cuts to the core of our democratic process. now, in pennsylvania, giuliani continued to claim widespread voter fraud in philadelphia even though he's said in courts and i quote, this is not a fraud case. so what he's saying in public not under oath is different from

what he said in court. moving on to michigan where the trump campaign dropped the final federal lawsuits after two canvassers in wayne county said they want to rescind their votes to certify the election. giuliani said they dropped the lawsuit because the state did decertify, but that's not true, the results were certified in michigan on tuesday and biden won. giuliani held up the list and refused to show them. >> that was fox's kristen fisher and you know, willie, there's been some news out there in the media community about fox news losing a few viewers because people were angry that they projected arizona correctly. they're angry that chris wallace actually sticks to the facts.

they're angry that people like that reporter actually delivered the news, stick to the facts, tell viewers the truth. but, you know, i feel like since i have been in cable news since 1934 i feel safe saying that people go for the quick kill often. they go for the sugar rush, the sugar high, and say, if we act this way, if we play to the cheap seats we'll get a few more people here, a few more people there. i think this show is, you know, a good example of how you play the long game. and it ends up working out well for you and fox news in those type of reports are playing the long game. they're actually on the side of history. they're on the side of truth. and they're on the side of american democracy and long

after this sugar high has passed us and we're a couple months away from this, people who report the news and the facts like that are the ones looking great and those chasing the sugar high are going to be left behind and considered jokes. it's happened -- i have seen it happen so many times in washington, i have seen it happen so many times in news. it's going to happen again here and that sort of report is the sort of report that fox news i'm sure they are proud of it, should be proud of it. >> yeah, i mean, i know that the bar is low for courage these days but we ought to say her name again, kristen fisher, because for people who don't understand to go on fox news and to do what she did just there, what you saw, to systematically point by point refute with facts the party line from donald trump and from rudy giuliani and from unfortunately now officially the republican party because that was an rnc event takes actual courage. i mean, i'm sure she's getting

crap for it, i'm sure she'll be criticized by some people on her own air but that's how you do it. there are people across that network who are telling the truth even on their morning show. you had somebody said, hey, it might be time to move on here, mr. president. you had a primetime host last night just bewildered by the spectacle we saw with rudy giuliani and those other attorneys saying where's the evidence? so will always be people there and we know who they are, who will stand by president trump. but there are enough on fox news right now. it is important -- i say courage but it's important to speak that audience and to say, guys, here are the facts about what's going on. and that this is all a complete diversion. michael steele, i was thinking of you -- i hope you don't mind as i watched that news briefing yesterday because you -- not anything to do with spray-on air or anything like that, i assure

you. >> right. >> but you ran the rnc and as i said that was not some press conference held at a landscapelilandscaping firm in philly. they made a statement, this is who we are, here's our logo. here, this group of people speaking right now and these arguments that we're making right now, these are the republican party. this is what we stand for and it was pretty shocking. >> it was shocking. clearly they didn't want another four seasons, you know, parking lot in between hair salon and a stripper club episode. so we get the back drop change, but it also to your point, willie, speaks a great deal more to the consolidation of this narrative by the national party. giving its imprimatur by the use of the space, now obviously the president's still the titular head of the party so he gets to call that shot, you know? it's his office space, if you

will. but there also is the messaging, the broader messaging that goes out to the points that were being made earlier on the program about where you stand in history and where do you want to find yourself as -- you know, hopefully as a governing majority one day again in the future. with each passing day of this, that becomes harder and harder for republicans to contemplate. and why? because americans won't forget this moment. they just won't. you know? yeah, you can count on your 73 million, but you've got 78, 80 million people out there plus countless others who don't stand with you on this and you have to account for them at some point. i'm not -- i'm not as necessarily as forgiving on the fox thing right this moment. fox is making a -- you're right, they're playing the long game. the story on the streets, no big

secret now, trump is looking to create competition for them. he's looking to create an empire of his own to challenge them. it's what he wanted to do before he became president by accident. so the reality for fox is now that trump is calling out their viewers to follow him to oan or to newsmax or some other network as a staging to moving them to trump tv or whatever that platform is, there -- they're now trying to figure out how -- okay, we're going to have to try to fill that gap with some center right folks or others and as this try to rebuild and to rebrand. i don't think there's so much giving up on trump, but recognizing he's going to be taking a big part of their audience with him and that again speaks to just as it does in politics the calculation that these entities are making around trump which i think to their long-term detriment.

>> yeah. well, you know, i follow ike's admonition that he doesn't look at what people say, he looks at what they do. and i don't really care why they're doing it. i think it would be great news if there is a financial benefit and telling viewers the truth about what rudy giuliani and donald trump and that posse of clowns are doing. then that's even better news. whatever gets us through this time period and more importantly, make sure that tens of millions of americans don't lose faith in the american democratic process simply because there are people who are making tens of millions of dollars lying to them every day about fraud. let's bring in right now cofounder and ceo of axios, january vandehei, senior adviser for the house oversight committee and senior adviser to the lincoln project, kurt bardella. also a senior adviser to the lincoln project, susan del percio. and also, donny deutsch is with

us as well. >> look at how handsome donny looks. >> he looks like macron. >> no, he just looks norm. >> thank you, mika. i wouldn't go that far, but he does look good. so jim vandehei, i want to go back to you. i want to start with you because you and i knew each other when we were kids. you know, i guess you were probably in your late 20s, i was in my early 30s on capitol hill and we thought the gingrich/clinton era was heated and we talked about going through that time period and the gingrich coups and everything else. i could never have imagined back then and i'm curious what your thoughts are in all of your years in washington if you could have ever imagined a time when the president who clearly lost by what he would call a landslide margin, 306 electoral

votes and biden up to almost 80 million votes overall, a president would refuse to leave the white house. >> never. i like your optimism what you're seeing on fox might portend there's a market for truth, for -- on fox and on right-wing media. i'm worried. you look at the trends right now, even take what fox reported versus that kooky press conference that giuliani did. most republicans if you look at the polls believe the kooky press conference. 66% say they don't think that the election was fair or valid and president trump is not going to go away. he's going to sit over here and he'll have a media, but he's doing this at a time when so many people don't believe the verifiable facts anymore. we talked on this show about the

decoupling with us in china. basically about two worlds. we might be witnessing the decoupling of america, not just the polarization. but what happens if the people leave fox and they go to parler and they go to newsmax and oan, maybe that's a short-term thing but the numbers should alarm people. if we move into different facts, different places to get news and different places to debate it, then you end up with a parallel universe. that's essentially what this election was. so the fact that giuliani could do a press conference -- i'm sorry for conservatives who are watching, it is kooky. look at every republican -- >> crazy. >> they will tell you what he was saying is kooky and yet, a lot of people are going to believe that. and if we don't figure out what the hell is going on with how people are consuming and disseminating information it is probably because technology is moving a little bit faster than the mind can. if we don't reset that, i truly

believe it's not like the '90s at all. we're screwed if there's no kind of semblance of common truth and that might be -- >> 100%. >> well, most of the people i talk to that are educated, that have college degrees, that have law degrees, they get their misinformation from facebook and they pass it around and they live in a bubble and it's something again that if they spent three minutes on google, to actually fact check, they could find out what the truth was. but they choose to stay inside that bubble. i do believe that facebook is a great threat not only to american democracy, but to democracies across the globe. there's ample evidence of that right now. it's going to be up to the next congress and the next president of the united states to figure out a way to protect democracies

from the worst aspects of things like facebook. but you know, willie, again, i don't want to be pollyannaish here, and certainly we have never seen anything like this before, what donald trump is doing. i do though remember seeing polls in 2006 that showed a majority of democrats believed that 9/11 was an inside job that george w. bush knew about. i do remember seeing polls five, six years later that showed a majority of republicans believed that barack obama was secretly a muslim, who wanted to implement shari'ah law in this country. i'm not saying that's good. i'm not saying it's positive, but i am saying we have been here before where 40, 50, 60% of americans believe in something that is absolutely like bonkers and we have gotten through that.

we have to figure out how to move beyond democrats believing that 9/11 was an inside job or republicans believing that obama was a muslim or stupid republicans believing what rudy giuliani is saying. but what is different this time, willie, is you have a republican party and you have a republican president that's not shooting down these bizarre conspiracy theories. we had democrats saying oh, no, no, it wasn't an inside job, we had republicans saying, no, john mccain said he's not a muslim, nothing wrong with that, he said he's a christian and now we have republicans and donald trump and mitch mcconnell all going along with what rudy giuliani is saying. that is what is so different today. >> that's exactly right. i was going to say there's the difference. those other theories that you talked about often were coming from the fringes or from donald

trump in the case of the birther movement but he was a reality tv show host. this is foundational. this is about the basis of our elections, about our government, about whether or not you ought to believe that the person who got the most votes actually won the election. donald trump, the most powerful man in the world for the next two months anyway is going to go out and say don't believe the results of the election. meanwhile, georgia will certify the recount, that's put to bed. in michigan he's trailing by 160,000 votes, trailing by 80,000 votes in pennsylvania, for example. here's how it's going in court for the trump team right now. in arizona, maricopa county judge denied the state republican party's request to stop the county board of supervisors to stop the count. they will certify the votes today. in bucks county, a judge has thrown out the trump campaign's appeal to have about 2,100

absentee ballots invalidated on technicalities writing that the contested ballots had quote, minor irregularities and did not constitute fraud. and in the state of georgia, a trump appointed judge threw out a lawsuit brought by celebrity attorney l. lin wood, who is suing to stop certification of the state's vote. after an almost three hour hearing the judge said quote to halt the certification at literally the 11th hour would breed confusion and disenfranchisement that have no basis in fact or law. the fact that the candidate or candidates that this plaintiff voted for did not prevail in an election does not meet the legal standard of harm much less irreparable harm. as i said, georgia will certify its election results today. that's because georgia's manual recount of the presidential election results has confirmed joe biden's victory there. after hand tallying nearly 5 million ballots the audit left

biden with a lead of more than 12,000 votes over president trump. georgia's secretary of state has been adamant there are no instances of widespread voter fraud were found in the recount process. again, that's the republican secretary of state. the audit went as expected because it recounted the legal votes included in the total. susan del percio, this is now state by state by state, case by case by case, hearing by hearing by hearing, an abject failure by the trump campaign and yet they continue to sow doubt about this election. >> and i believe that donald trump is continuing to do it for himself, because he's trying raise money for his legal defense in new york where he's going to be facing two cases. one by the city of manhattan

district attorney, another by the new york state attorney. but i guess, you know, going back to that concept of where people are getting their information, we are siloed as a nation and i want to give a glimmer of hope and i hope it brings us back to normal. when president-elect biden is inaugurated we're going to see facts being presented on the most important health crisis in over a hundred years. people are going to be tuned in to these briefings and they are going to trust them because they're not going to be politicized. and i think that's a really important point going forward. and for all of these republicans who are undermining what's happening now with the president-elect, they are going to be held accountable. ron johnson in wisconsin is up for re-election in 2022. he's going to have a hard time explaining that he's out there trying to help -- well, he'll be former president trump then, but

why he's not out there fighting for people in wisconsin. why he is not fighting to bring relief to their state right now. they are going through a huge spike and all he can talk about is like banana treatments that basically have been proven false. i do hope that they do cycle out especially a lot of the republicans. you know, i'm part of the lincoln project, we got rid of trump and now the next thing is to get rid of these people. >> all right. we'll pause and now talk about the coronavirus. we have some breaking news and a lead guest. first of all, pfizer is going to be asking -- this breaking just now, u.s. regulators to allow emergency use of its covid-19 vaccine starting the process as early as next month. now, emergency use is very different than full approval. only a certain number of people get it and anyone getting it gets a fact sheet on the risks

and some people are not allowed to get it including pregnant women given the fact that it's not all the way up for full approval. but pfizer is trying to really start the clock early on this vaccine. asking u.s. regulators to allow for emergency use of its covid-19 vaccine, starting the process potentially next month. >> let's bring in right now, former fda commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. we don't have it on the fact sheet, but you have a connection with pfizer, right? i want to make sure that i have that right. >> right. i'm on the board of directors of pfizer. currently. >> okay. that would be a connection with pfizer. so with that in mind, our viewers know that now. that actually puts you in a pretty good position to tell us exactly what's happening with pfizer and again, everybody can judge this as they may. he's on the board of directors of pfizer, but this sounds like really good news. tell us about it.

>> well, look, it is good news. it's 248 days since pfizer began the partnership with biontech to develop this vaccine and moderna as well. moderna has a similar vaccine, and rna vaccine, that has comparable, good results with their vaccine. so i think we have the prospect now we'll get two filings with the fda, pfizer today, hopefully moderna pretty soon. we'll have two vaccines on the market in short order. i think it will two to three weeks to turn it around for it and i think you'll see it authorized in mid december if things continue to go well. they're having an advisory committee so they're convening in the second week of december, so an authorization can happen after that. we'll vaccinate elderly americans, people who live in nursing homes, as early as

december. so it could have some impact on the current epidemic we're going through. >> because of the lack of a national plan and the lack of mitigation effort, so many americans are resting their hopes on a vaccine which as you say will be available for the most vulnerable soon but not so much for the rest of us deeper into next year. can you walk us through a time line, let's say it's authorized in the next two to three weeks, you get it into the most vulnerable, how long does it take to distribute it? >> it gets to the operative point this vaccine won't be available to tangibly change the contours of the current epidemic we're going through and if we have it available in mid december, you start vaccinating a select group of elderly americans pause we'll be supply

constrained in december, early january, they need get a second dose. and full protective immunity doesn't kick in until after the second dose that puts you in mid january if you're starting to vaccinate in december, it's mid january people are getting the second dose and getting the protective immunity and probably this epidemic will run the course over the next six to eight weeks. so the vaccine probably will have an impact for some americans on a tail end of this. but it's really not going to change the contours. in terms of getting into next year, if this is authorized by the fda, they're likely to make some amendments to that authorization where they expand the group of people who are eligible to receive it. so let's say they start off with those who are over 65, comorbidities and then they'll expand it to those over 60.

and when they feel about licensing it for the general population that's probably not going to come until the second or the third quarter of next year when it's broadly licensed for everyone. so that healthy 30-year-old can get it. but the good news is we'll have it in time for the fall 2021 covid season and we'll get it out before this threatens us again substantially going into fall 2021. spring and summer are likely to be quiescent because we'll be coming off a dense epidemic. >> so quick practical question because i heard it from a lot of people. how does this work? are we all lined up outside of a cvs or walgreens, going to our doctor's office? how do you get the vaccine? >> yeah, it's a great question. so the government, the federal government's tightly controlling the distribution points for the vaccine to start. so there are select locations that people can go to get vaccinated so they have to register with the federal

government. getting it in the first tranche is like going to vote, you have to go to a special day if you're eligible to receive it. as it becomes more generally available then you go to your cvs our a clinic to get the vaccine. it's unlikely that you'll be able to go your doctor's office to get the vaccine because these will probably be tightly control for the remarndz of, you know, 2020 and into 2021. you'll have special vaccination sites but more ubiquitous as we get more supply out in the market. >> dr. gottlieb, i want to ask you about testing that a biden administration would very much like to invoke the dpa and get testing and supplies better coordinated on a national level so that it works better, but right now it's a pretty pathetic situation. there are lines. there are people waiting for days. there are people getting false positives and false negatives and it -- you know, most doctors

seem to agree it could be better at this point. so if the dpa is invoked as soon as president-elect biden takes office, will it help improve people getting access to testing and also dissemination of the vaccines as they become available? >> well, with testing it's going to take time because what we really need is a better system to distribute testing resources. we have a lot of tests in the market right now. the problem is that the tests all go to a select group of labs so we have idle capacity at some labs and then we have other labs overworked. we need the samples sent to labs that have capacity and that needs on the run at the state level. the public health labs need to be empowered to be a hub and spoke system where they can distribute testing, test samples more evenly across the states so they can take advantage of the full testing capacity of different tests. labcorp and quest may be

overloaded with samples and may have two or three day delays and you have large academic labs in the state that have idle capacity. so the federal government can help provide a better logistics system and better authorities and resources for distributing testing more equitably across the state. with respect to the vaccine what is i worry about most is that the system that we're designing in terms of how this is distributed is causing friction. people who face disadvantages getting access to cares are the ones who could be most harmed like that, so we need to provide special resource for those getting access to care. you're talking to them, they're talking about creating the mobile vans to distribute it that way. we need to think about those things. this has to be done at the state

level and governors need to think about how getting the vaccine to the vulnerable communities because that's where it needed the most. >> dr. scott gottlieb, thank you for being on the show this morning. so let's get to donny, he was supposed to be on at 6:25 -- >> i know. >> 6:25 central time. >> he's here. >> i'm curious what your read is -- we have been talking about how donald trump and rudy giuliani are spreading disinformation. it's what the russians called fire hose of falsehoods and the idea is just to confuse and baffle the americans. they're not doing that. they're confusing and baffling their own supporters who want to be confused and baffled. but i'm curious about joe biden. and his approach. it has seemed to be a steady as it goes, don't pay attention, keep your head down, i'm going

to be there. we're going to take care of this approach. i'm curious how you grade the president-elect and how he's handling this bizarre interlude between his election and his inauguration? >> i think i give him an a-plus. you can't go for that pitch in the dirt. the more he kind of raises the alarm bells, the more you're giving credence and the more it becomes a story. he's very dismissive. his answers range from either this is sad, it's going to affect his legacy, it's embarrassing. i mean, just kind of almost dismissive in a pathetic kind of way and that's the way to handle it. speaking of pathetic, a little news story that popped up yesterday that didn't get a lot of attention, donald trump is not going to mar-a-lago for thanksgiving. i'm bringing that up for a reason. mar-a-lago -- i know you and mika have been there, it's a safe little haven he goes to he has 200 of his minions there and

they kiss his kneecaps and it's amazing this mr. revolutionary, he has been seen once since the election in 2 1/2 weeks. i'm wondering has he had a nervous breakdown at the white house? he can't face the american people as a loser. his father said there are killers and there are losers. what's going on at the white house? is he under the covers, walking around in circles? has he had a breakdown? he's trying to start this assault yet he is missing. he's ascared. it's like he's become a pathetic nonentity. it's -- literally about this, six years, for his entire life, his face has been forward and now there's been a grenade

thrown in the bunker and there's not a lot of stories about what's going on at the white house. is he falling apart? i wouldn't be shocked. it's like someone a sword inside and pulled it out and he completely deflated. he has had some sort of a breakdown? >> well, of course none of us know exactly what's going on at the white house, but we know he hasn't answered a reporters' question since election day. we also know that he's calling michigan legislators to come in because he wants them to undermine american democracy. >> tweeting a lot. >> yes, he's tweeting a good bit. but yeah, he is -- he is not going out and facing the music and how fascinating if that is true that he's not going to mar-a-lago, that he can't even face any of the people there. so kurt bardella, let's return to a topic we have talked about

a good deal and that is our former party, the republican party. it seems that, you know, we're not surprised. we're not shocked, but at the same time, we see them doing lower and lower every day. and now you have the overwhelming majority of republicans that are sitting back and letting rudy giuliani and donald trump undermine the integrity of america's voting system and in so doing trying their damnedest to undermine america's faith in democracy. >> yeah. joe, i mean, it is -- it's inconceivable to me as someone who came around in politics at a time it was the post 9/11 world where it seemed like some of the identity was wrapped in the idea of patriotism and liberty and

the war on terror and all the things we have heard at the turn of the century and to have the other party, freedom fries, in the cafeteria of congress, undermining the democracy. the party that talks about protecting our troops, honoring our service members and taking care of the veterans are undermining the very thing that those people put their lives on the line for every day. the history of our country is build on the sacrifices of men and women who have given everything on the fundamental belief that the idea that we should have a right to vote. that we should have freedom and participation in our elected officials as something we're sacrificing for. these are the people that are trampling all over that right knew. it's irreconcilable to me is to see the version of the republican party that i became a part of to the point where

people like you and me have left the republican party over some of this. you know, it's sad. and, you know, the only hope that we can have is that the minute that donald trump walks out that door on january 20th and president-elect biden becomes president joe biden, you know, that we can start changing the channel from the trump channel. everything he says, does, tweets becomes a distant memory we don't flood to every second of every day and that we have some semblance of patriotism, normalcy, fact, science, truth becomes the story of the day and trump becomes a distant memory. >> well, and to donny's point, it's like he's -- he doesn't want to be on the show. it's thinking of that bizarre, sweaty news conference which had kind of gross moments with rudy giuliani having some sweating problem, you don't see trump at all and he's tweeting like from

his bed or closet or bathroom. but his legal team or whatever this group of legal types and i'll put that in quotes -- a lot of folks that used to be part of this team aren't there. they don't want to be a part of this. but this team assigned to unfounded blame for trump's election loss -- >> who do they blame? >> okay, they blame china. >> okay. >> antifa and george soros. >> good to get the little -- i'm sure it -- >> they also -- >> way to go, fellows. >> two presidents of venezuela. one dead and one living. >> wow. >> they're standing by that one. big tech including specific web server from germany. multiple major u.s. cities, just broadly blaming them. >> well, where black americans lived. they're focused on black

americans. they only want to count white votes. >> wouldn't want to count share votes. american citizens who volunteered at the polling sites. the country of argentina. >> falkland islands? >> somehow the late richard daley, the country of cuba, two voting companies and a british baron. and in a statement on twitter, just two of them, utah senator mitt romney said quote, having failed to make a plausible case of widespread fraud or conspiracy before any court of law, the president has now resorted to overt pressure on state and local officials to subvert the will of the people and overturn the election. it is difficult to imagine a worse, more undemocratic action by a sitting american president and in a statement to nbc news,

nebraska senator ben sasse said what matters most at this statement is not the latest press conference or tweet, but what the president's lawyers are actually saying in court. and based on what i have read in their filings, when donald trump campaign lawyers have stood before courts under oath they have repeatedly refused to actually allege grand fraud because there are legal consequences for lying to judges. susan, what he's saying is they have nothing. >> right. they have nothing. and, you know, what was interesting that -- between the election day and when it was officially -- or announced that joe biden was in fact the president-elect 12 or 13 days ago, there was a lot of time for proof to come out. that's when it typically does. right away. and we didn't see any of that during those 10, 13 days. what's also really important to keep in mind is this is rudy

giuliani who has every time he comes out for the president, he's never really the lawyer. he's never really the person who is doing the serious representation, if you remember the mueller report, he was supposed to be the lawyer there. he's a television personality and it breaks my heart to say this because i did work for him. he's gone into looney tune land and it's just horrible to see this happen and i used to feel sorry for him, honestly. but now, i'm just beyond disappointed and to see that he would do these types of things after being the head of the southern district of new york and being america's mayor. he's a disaster and what i can't understand is why aren't more republicans saying that there are no legal grounds? that's it. you don't have to say you want -- you don't like donald trump and you don't like what he's doing, just say there's no legal grounds like ben sasse did

and that's very factual. we have to start getting back to republicans present the facts. if they disagree that's fine but you can't disagree on what the actual facts are. >> donny, you're a new yorker. i have never really talked to you about rudy when he was mayor. i have been very straightforward time and again that i thought giuliani did an extraordinary job while he was mayor and when you say that everybody says, well, it was the city council, it was david dinkins, okay, i just know before rudy became mayor of new york city, new york was just an absolute mess and a couple of years after, it was cleaned up. and giuliani gets a lot of credit for that. it was an extraordinary turnaround and a turnaround that up until the pandemic, new yorkers enjoyed and benefited from. of course, bloomberg came in and

did a very good job. crime continued going down under bill de blasio. so it is -- i will say it is sad, it is pathetic that rudy giuliani is being allowed to go out and embarrass himself. i mean this. as a human we have all seen what happens when our parents grow old. when our loved ones grow old. and every one of us, mika, and i, and i'm sure you have had to step in at times and pull our parents back into the house when they -- my mom had dementia. my dad, you know, sort of had some dementia problems at the very end. and i'm not saying rudy had dementia, but when people get old it's the children who step in and protect them from embarrassing themselves.

and, you know, i'm not speculating here about rudy losing a step. donald trump told me five years ago that giuliani had lost his step. and when he wanted giuliani to be secretary of state, i kept saying on this show and to trump and to people around trump, wait a second. you said he lost a step. you said that he's passed out by 6:00, 6:30 at night, that his mind wanders. this was four years ago. they were talking about him losing a step and they're still allowing him to go out four years later and embarrass himself. i will say i do think despite all that is at stake here on a very personal level i do think like susan this is a sad, sad spectacle for a man who, you know, wants -- i'm sorry,

liberals, he did a hell of a job as a mayor and when -- after 9/11 and the first couple of days, i'm sorry, republicans when george w. bush couldn't find his voice, rudy giuliani found his. and now of course president bush when he got to new york, stood on top of the pile of rubble he found his voice, but speaking of interludes there was an interlude between the attack and that moment and rudy giuliani was the one who stepped to the front and told us we were going to be okay. as a new yorker, i know i have gone on about this, but i just got to say, we forget who this guy was as a new yorker. what are your thoughts about seeing rudy giuliani going up and embarrassing himself and, i mean, let me just say, where the hell is his family stopping him from doing this? >> i'm glad you asked me about that, because i was feeling the same exact thing. i can never think of a public figure, such a tragic demise.

mika's favorite visual of the hair dye running down his face is going to be his legacy. when you contrast it to the "time" magazine's america's mayor, and then this teetering, lost, old man who reminded me -- i want to say this the right way, sometimes in new york city it's sad, we have homeless people, you see people they're mentally ill and on the street and they're ranting and they're raving and that's what he reminded me of yesterday. you can't -- it's just -- it was like pathetic, joe. i think your kind of analogy with parents and somehow, you know, at some stage people shouldn't be in public anymore. he's at that stage and to think that that's who donald trump is sending out while donald trump hides, you know, as a pathetic, impotent little loser at this point, the two ends of the polar

spectrum say it all. but if anything it's just a tragedy about rudy giuliani, as a new yorker i feel bad for him and his family should really help out. i think it's great point, joe. >> yeah. again four years ago, donald trump himself, kurt bardella, was saying that giuliani had lost it. that he had lost more than a few steps and now he's running trump's efforts to undermine american democracy. >> you know, it shows that in every relationship with donald trump it seems that at some point in that relationship he's against you. and he's making fun of you and insulting you and trying to give the people that he barely had any association with you and it boggles me mind that so many people are willing to stake their reputation and legacies behind donald trump. a man that as soon as it's convenient for him will turn on you. will fire you by tweet. i mean, just look at the long list of people close with him.

his lawyer, michael cohen, jeff sessions, the former attorney general. members of his family like mary trump. and for those who are enabling this destructive behavior, i have to ask what are you going to do when trump turns on you. even fox news, who has been his propaganda mouth is turning against him. he's the most disloyal person walking the face of the earth and for those holding their tongue, doing something they know is wrong, i wonder how long are you going to let this happen because he'll turn on you at some point and then what are you going to do? >> mika, last point on rudy giuliani, yes it was sad to watch yesterday. here's the catch. a lot of americans view rudy giuliani as the guy from 9/11. rudy giuliani is still in the

eyes of many people america's mayor. he does hold credibility with a lot of people in the country. so while it might be sad and yes his family should step in here, his message is being received by a lot of people as true and as credible because of that legacy that you guys were just talking about. so when he says this election has to be overturned, when those lawyers get up there yesterday and say with straight faces that donald trump won in a land slide which donald trump just retweeted, that message is getting throughout. so they're worthy of our mockery, worthy of our pity in some ways, but a lot of people in this country hearing rudy giuliani as america's mayor and saying, yeah, the thing he's saying right now is true. this election was stolen. >> it's damaging. unbelievably damaging. donny deutsche, susan del percio and kurt bardella, thank you.

and you write that biden is trying to restore trust in government, a lot of which we're talking about right now. we have to restore trust in the truth. and still ahead on "morning joe," "the washington post" jonathan capehart will discuss us to talk about his conversation with the former president barack obama. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ." re watchinge we'll be right back. nnouncer] me ninja foodi air fry oven. make family-sized meals fast. and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do things no other oven can, like flip away. the ninja foodi air fry oven, the oven that crisps and flips away.

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are we breaking -- yes.

we're breaking out jim croce, who four people in the audience remember. >> i love jim croce. >> oh, man. i want to hear this song for a second. hold on. hold on. listen to this line. ♪ ♪ but you can't change me, i've got a dream ♪ >> i love that song. >> the -- >> hold on a second, you don't stomp on jim croce. >> sorry. >> willie, we have done a few things differently this morning. we got to listen to more than three seconds of a song before we get back to distressing news. but also we get scott gottlieb, did you see that? >> very briefly. >> it is kind of serious. >> you're kind of involved in pfizer, right, and he goes, well, i'm on the board, so you can call that involved. and he laughed. what about the timing of scott gottlieb coming on, pfizer

making the announcement and we booked him before the announcement. a lot of bleak news out there and i feel so terrible especially for the children who aren't able to go to school and parents all across the country, but so important we remember there is good news out there. >> it's coming. >> these -- we predicted this back in march that with every scientist in the world, every pharmaceutical company in the world, focusing on the vaccine, this is first time in world history that everybody was going to be focusing on getting one thing done. not only have they done it in record time, but this 93, 94, 95% effective rate is -- well, heck, we were hearing it was going to be like 50% just two or three months ago. >> yeah, we are the most innovative country in the world and we showed it again just today. just this morning. i mean, this is a process as we

have talk about many times on this show that takes years and years and years typically the development of an effective vaccine that will get fda approval. they started in february right here in this country. we got the code from china about what covid-19 looked like. so they could begin to work on the vaccine so that's february to november. that's nine months. nine months they have developed a vaccine. it's absolutely incredible. and it is good news with the caveat that dr. gottlieb pointed out, the vulnerable will get it soon. that's great news. for the country it might be second quarter or third quarter of next year. he said the vaccine is not here in time for what's in front of us. it would have been nice to have had a plan to prevent this, but yes, our scientists and doctors are doing amazing work. on their side of it, we need a government to match that effort as well. we'll talk more about the vaccine in a minute but i want to get to new bloomberg new economy forum that just convened hundreds of world leaders. our next guest was a part of it. he's president and founder of

eurasia group and foreign affairs columnist and editor at large for "time" ian bremer is out with a new column, which u.s. adversaries will take advantage of the chaos? i want to talk about the panel you convened and the study among the world leaders. is it safe to say -- and we have heard this based on phone calls with president-elect biden and the messages they sent publicly, is it fair to say that most of the world has moved on past donald trump? >> yeah, i understand how all of us are caught up in the undemocratic actions that president trump is taking right now and being called out by folks like romney and sasse as you just mentioned. but three or four days of the new economy forum, all of the global leaders, prime minister of india, prime minister of ireland, singaporean prime minister, so many others they're talking about president-elect biden. they're positioning for what the policies will look like in a new

administration. every single political leader i have spoken to around the world they're not worried that somehow biden is not going to take office. you know, they're knee deep in plans for this transition and it's enormously important. it feels a little normal. they're talking about what the global economy looks like next year and i have the head of the imf on my panel yesterday. she was much more optimistic about the ability of the imf to help bail out the countries that are going to need it because the global economy is going to pick up so much on the back of all of these new vaccines. like overwhelmingly the last week from a global perspective has been good news, even though in the united states it doesn't feel that way. >> ian, i'm so glad you said that. hey, we have been hearing for the better part of four years that it will take decades for the united states to recover, for the relationships to come back together. i always say we remain the

indispensable power. and at least across europe and other parts of the world. that world leaders will accept whoever donald trump's replacement is and that we can start mending those relationships. are you getting that sense? >> absolutely. think about the fact that the united states said in the middle of a pandemic that we were going the leave the world health organization. i mean, that's an obscenity. i mean, if you want to talk about the opposite of how to respond to this global crisis that might have been the nadir. but the united states is going to get right back in. and we're going to join the agreement on putting out the vaccines and distributing them not just to the americans who need it the most, but the people around the world who need it the most. we pulled out of the paris accord, and every country

disagreed on that. and that doesn't suddenly mean we'll going to send troops all over the world or we'll make the world safe for democracy or we'll promote big global trade deals. i don't think that. but i do think there's a significant honeymoon because so many leaders have been walking on eggshells when they meet with president trump hoping he won't break things in their direction that goes away. >> so again let's talk about -- let's take a view from 30,000 feet on american foreign policy in this century. obviously, the first presidency of this century, the bush presidency. we were ensnarled in wars that occupied a great deal of our time and attention and hurt our reputation across the globe. then the obama presidency. though we didn't hear it as much in the media, you often heard

from world leaders that it was a very -- it was a very conservative with a small "c" foreign policy where the united states was more interested in not making mistakes than in moving forward and making positive new partnerships. >> yeah. >> as he said -- as president obama said, the overriding goal was don't do stupid stuff and now of course we have had four more years of the trump presidency. i'm wondering if you are optimistic that with the biden presidency we may have a return to normalcy not just across the globe, but also in how the cabinet agency -- how the interagency process runs. you know, with donald trump it was just donald trump, with barack obama it was ben rhodes and dennis mcdonagh and the president. i'm wondering if we get back to the more traditional interagency

process under joe biden, a traditionalist. >> absolutely. i mean, you're talking about someone who has run the senate foreign relations committee. he has people around him that understand how organizations work, how bureaucracies work, with decades and decades of experience. they will be rowing in the same direction. i mean, i don't think biden will be as willing to deploy u.s. power both with our allies and our adversaries as president trump has been. but he's going to be much more focused on trying to ensure some level of consensus on trying not to make mistakes. i mean, don't do stupid stuff, i think we can safely say was not the mantra of the last four years of the trump administration. it will be again provided. i think though we also need to understand that we're not returning to the status quo ante of the united states resurgence at the end of the cold war. i mean, obama and biden

supported the transpacific partnership. just over last weekend, joe, there's the new r sep deal. and the united states isn't in it, it was actually driven by beijing. and when biden becomes president, he's not going to try to get that tpp done because the country won't support it. hillary clinton liked the surge in afghanistan. biden opposed it. and the idea that we would be going around and telling other countries how to run their elections, given what's happening in the united states it's on its face ludicrous. even though a president-elect biden will reflect those values personally. the united states has seen its institutions erode and we're not the only ones that notice that. our allies and adversaries do too. so we have, you know, a lot of structural challenges that don't just change when the man in the oval office and his team, how ever well intentioned, suddenly

take office. >> ian bremer, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. president-elect joe biden met with a number of republican and democratic governors yesterday and joining us now is someone who is part of that meeting. the republican governor of maryland, larry hogan. thank you very much for being on the show. i know the state reported yesterday the highest new coronavirus cases ever. highest number. how did the meeting with president-elect biden go? what are you hopeful will happen in the transition or at least when his presidency begins to try and stem the tide of these cases and deaths? >> well, first of all, i think it was a very productive meeting that we had yesterday. i was glad that the president-elect reached out to the national governors association. this was the executive committee of the organization so we're five democrats, we're five republicans. we had a good, productive

discussion and mostly we gave the president-elect asking for input from the governors who have been on the front lines of the crisis and we shared some of the things that we thought weof you've been talking about this morning. where we are on the vaccines, i pushed to talk about we've got to get the transition going. we also have a productive meeting with vice president pence and the white house coronavirus task force a couple of days ago. i've been stressing that the two groups need to start talking right away so that we can stay on top of this. we're in the middle of this war against the virus, and you know, we've got to have everybody on the field. >> someone who knows a tad bit about maryland would be michael steele, and he's got the next question. michael. >> governor, so good to see you this morning. >> good morning. >> good to see you, bro.

the city of new york is closing schools. other municipalities and governors around the country are re-evaluating the situation at schools. where are you given the spiking that we're seeing in our region, the steps you've already taken to reduce occupancy in public spaces. are schools now back in that rotation of consideration? are other efforts being considered to sort of stem this apparent increase in covid-19 at this moment, not just here in maryland, but elsewhere? have you governors talked about that is this. >> well, we've had a lot of conversations between and among governors in the country. look, this virus is raging out of control in all 50 states. we had been doing relatively well for three or four months. we were better than 43 other states. our positivity rate was low, our transmission rate was low. this virus does not recognize

state borders so now we're having incredible spikes like we haven't seen since march and april, and we're taking aggressive actions as we did early on in the crisis. our school systems in maryland, duly elected local county school boards get to make the final determinations about what happens in their schools. and where we are for the most part is in hybrid learning where some of the kids who need instructi instruction, in-person instruction more like special needs kids or people who don't have access to the internet, people that really need the hands on interacting with teachers, they're coming back in a safe way with ppe and distancing and sanitation and just filtration systems and trying to keep them safe, but many of our kids are still schooling remotely and different counties are making different decisions about that. >> governor hogan, it's willie geist. i'm thinking back to the early days of this public health

crisis and the incredible story that your wife actually had to call friends back in south korea to get testing and to get things moving because you weren't getting any help from anywhere else. you had to improvise and do what you could do. has it gotten better in terms of federal assistance? right now we're basically facing a situation like we did in march and april, that level of crisis. do you have more of what you need this time? >> well, yeah, so back in march, there was no real national testing strategy. there were no supplies. every governor was left to fend for themselves. we couldn't find any of the desperately needed stuff anywhere in america, and so my wife who was born in south korea, we reached out to the south korean embassy. it was 22 days of negotiations back and forth, and we got half a million coronavirus tests which was the backbone of our testing strategy for the past seven months. but it has improved over that period of time, so it was really terrible at the beginning, and i was one of the loudest critics. but things like, you know, fema

has really stepped up in getting supplies out to us, the governors pressed to utilize the defense production act for the production of things like swabs and ventilators, and we're now caught up. we do a better job of keeping people alive with some of the therapeutics and we're doing very well object vaccine, operation warp speed is a tremendous success at this point. so it's gotten better, but -- and we still are having ongoing discussions with the vice president and the coronavirus task force, but my concern right now is that smooth transition to the incoming administration to make sure they're up to speed and that nobody drops the ball on the handoff. >> all right, republican governor larry hogan of maryland, thank you very much for updating us. good to have you on the show. and now to the comments from former president obama in a new interview last night here on msnbc. >> joe biden's going to be the next president of the united states. kamala harris will be the next vice president. you know, i didn't enjoy having

to call donald trump and congratulate him for having won the night of his election four years ago, but i did it because that's part of my job. i think that 2008's very different than 2020. the way donald trump's behaving in transition is very different than the way george bush behaved on his final months. i think joe biden is right to say that we should all make an effort to do our best to lower the temperature and listen to the other side, but i think when you have a current president whose entire style is to fan division that's hard while he's on the stage. >> and the man who conducted that interview, jonathan capehart joins us now, a

pulitzer prize winning editorial writer for "the washington post." also with us, ceo of the messina group, jim messina. he served as white house deputy chief of staff to president obama and ran his 2012 re-election campaign. good to have you both. jonathan capehart, president obama's touching on something that we've been talking about a lot on the show over the past few days. it's disinformation. it's truth decay. it's churning up lies to the point where you have growing numbers of people from all walks of life believing them that is leaving scars or creating more damage to this country than i think it's -- that's the sort of untenable part of this phase of donald trump's loss. he lost most know, but this effort to debunk his loss, i don't think there's an understanding across the board as to how damaging that can be.

did the president address that? >> yeah, so i asked the president about what was happening in michigan to get his reaction to the fact that there are people out there who are using the word coup to describe the actions being taken by the president, rudy giuliani, and republicans there in michigan, and i asked him was that being hyperbolic or was american democracy truly at risk. his immediate answer without hesitation was joe biden will be the next president of the united states and kamala harris will be the next vice president of the united states. look, we all know that president obama is a relentlessly optimistic person, but he's also a realist, but in that realism, he recognizes that the country is being damaged. the american people being damaged because of what's happening with the transition and how that's making it basically impossible for the incoming biden administration to coordinate on the pandemic, and he also sees that what this does

to democracy, how it shakes the foundations of democracy, but he believes, even though we are going through these really turbulent and terrible times that america will get through this. >> so jim in jonathan's great interview with president obama, president obama effectively said, hey, let's get back now with president-elect biden, with president biden when he's sworn in, let's get back to the old arguments we had between democrats and republicans. let's talk about health care, and let's talk about immigration. let's not be perpetual state of warfa warfare. do you share any optimism that the president seemed to have last night that we can return to that place under president biden? >> i do, willie, and i do for two reasons. number one, you saw barack obama do what donald trump should be doing right now, which is kind of pulling the country together saying we've just been through this tough time. we're going to get out of this, and it's going to be okay, and i

think there is a feeling on both parties right now that once trump exits the stage and his exit's super messy and ugly as mika was just saying, but eventually he will exit the stage and you have both parties kind of saying to each other did we really come to washington to just fight? do we really just want to do politics full-time? and there are people, both parties, the problem solver caucus in the house, members of both parties in the senate who are saying let's use this moment as a reset to see if we can get some things done. i'm not, you know, crazy here. i don't think we're going to hold hands and run into the river and get everything done, but i think there's a chance to just go back to the block and tackling of governance that we used to do, pass appropriation bills, get a budget done, deal with some of the things that we know our economic competitors around the world are doing, and i think there's bipartisan appetite to at least try. >> my apologies, this was quite the packed hour, we're going to

have to have you both back, jonathan cape heart, jim messina, thank you very, very, very much. coming up, we'll talk to another governor dealing with some tough choices right now, rhode island's governor joins our discussion. plus, an in-depth conversation on the role of nato after donald trump is shown the door. the next hour of "morning joe" starts right now. so let's start with the specifics, pennsylvania. >> this is more than nixon ever sweated. >> our own state department was rocked not only by the revelation but from the highly unusual persistence of the state press corps. >> and they don't want to have to counter that. >> just how noticeable is this, huh? >> if she's working for the -- i assume if she's working for the city of detroit. >> it's pretty hot under these lights, huh, seinfeld?

pretty hot. >> influence of communist money. >> one, two, three. just let your soul glow, just let it shine through ♪ >> in the states that we have indicated in red. >> spray on hair, guaranteed to cover bald spots. >> it's the reason why he probably didn't have to go out and campaign. >> it's fast, it's safe, and it's acid free because it's made of a super -- >> all right. a few questions. >> yeah. >> sir. >> are you okay? because you're sweating pretty profusely. >> yeah, no, i'm fine. >> block or delay --

>> and if so, when? >> i'm starting to sweat. stop sweating. i've got to stop sweating. can't you see it dripping down my forehead? oh, she looked at my hairline. she thinks i'm bald. >> our "morning joe" producers' take on the insane, very sweaty press conference from the president's personal attorney rudy giuliani and the group of lawyers who apparently unironically call themselves a, quote, wait for it, elite strike force team. [ laughter ] >> they threw out one baseless accusation after another about alleged voter fraud with no proof, and whether it was -- can we take this down? i'm so -- whether it was the highly ridiculous or incredibly dangerous or both, it's up for debate. the now former head of department of homeland security cyber security unit, chris

krebs, who is former because trump fired him by tweet this week because krebs told the truth about the election and being safe and securement he tweeted, quote, that press conference was the most dangerous one hour 45 minutes of television in american history and possibly the craziest, and if you don't know what i'm talking about, you are lucky. >> well, you know -- >> starting on a gross note this morning. >> willie, words of -- i think it was a father in christmas story about the bb gun. it's all fun and games until somebody gets their eye shot out. in this case, this is all crazy until -- >> you know you're fake when you're sweating. >> -- you step back and you look and you understand what republican senators are finally starting to say out loud, that regardless of the lunacy of this, of all of this, that at the bottom of all of this chaos

when you sort of sort through the crazed circus atmosphere around this, you have a president of the united states who's aggressively doing everything he can do to undermine american democracy. republican senators are finally saying that out loud, and while the actions themselves may not be dangerous because they're going to lead nowhere, the fact that we have a president, a commander in chief who cares so little about american democracy -- something that we've known all along and said on this show for the past four years, but the fact that he doesn't care about american democracy and is willing to try to get people to not certify free and fair elections, try to -- as he did -- as he's done, actually, for four years, try to talk about american elections that are rigged that he has

baseless lawsuits that he can't even get qualified attorneys to file because they would be sanctioned by the court. and now inviting legislators from michigan to come to the white house to try to pressure them into stealing votes, it's all very pathetic. it's all very unprecedented, and at the same time, it's all very dangerous because he is trying his dammedenedest to subvert american democracy. >> he did, and they said it at that clown show press conference out loud, we need to change the votes in this democratic free and fair election. i would also point out that press conference that, yes, was funny in its own way because rudy giuliani was sweating his

hair dye down his cheeks the whole time was held at the headquarters of the republican national committee. this was not in front of a landscaping business in north philly. this is not a guy up posting something to youtube or to q or whatever, 4 khan, 8chan, this was a guy representing the president of the united states standing at the headquarters of the rnc. so this is a statement from the republican party about what it believes is happening in this election. he and the attorneys behind him calling for an election to be overturned, and as you point out, joe, they're losing everywhere in court. they're one for 30. it might be worse now. they probably lost a couple while we were sleeping. the other important point is they're making different arguments publicly. everything they said at that rnc press conference yesterday does not line up with what they're filing in court. they're not claiming fraud when they file in court in pennsylvania, in georgia, in

arizona because they know that would be a lie. they know they don't have evidence to prove that, so this is a show. it's a complete show. the problem is as we've been saying for a couple of weeks is they have the attention of about 73 million people who voted for donald trump and who are open to believing that, yes, this election was stolen from the president, and number two, that it should be overturned as they said explicitly yesterday. >> and the thing is, as we said yesterday as well, don't kid yourselves into believing that it's just people that have fallen off of turnip trucks that are believing this. >> no. >> they are people who graduated from yale law school. they are people who are ceos of companies. they are people who are very educated the they don't fit this stereotype that trump and his campaign want you to believe that these are all the working man and middle america that don't believe the elites. there are some elites in here,

too, who have moneyed interests to have donald trump reelected president of the united states. it didn't happen, and now some of these people are actually buying in to some of these bizarre conspiracy theories that nobody believes. and again, here's the tell, all right? rudy giuliani, donald trump, the rest of trump's gang are lying through their teeth. mark meadows, they're all liars. they're all lying through their teeth, and they're telling you things happen that never happened, and the tell is, as rudy giuliani refuses to do, as will willie told you, they won't say it in court. you know why? because if they say it in court and it's not the truth they'll get sanctioned, maybe if somebody testifies and lies about it, they'll actually get arrested for committing perjury. so that's the real tell here.

>> yeah. >> there's another tell, though, and it has to do with mitch mcconnell, and it has to do with the republicans who we gave the benefit of the doubt to at the beginning of this process, even though none of them deserve the benefit of the doubt. and we said this, excuse me, let me -- i'll just finish and then you can go. we said this to mitch mcconnell, and it was, okay, we'll go along with you. count all the votes. you're right, all the votes need to be counted, and yes, and then if you still -- despite the fact you know mitch mcconnell that joe biden is going to be president of the united states because these numbers, this advantage is so big that trump can never catch up, then go ahead and go through the legal process. if that makes you feel better, if that makes your base feel better, go through the legal process. we've done that. they have -- if they had any

credible allegations of widespread fraud and abuse, it would have come forward, but they don't. they keep losing in court. they keep saying things outside of court that they refuse to say inside of court. so the question, mitch, is houchow much longer are you going to hold american democracy in suspended animation? how much longer are you going to undermine what really does lay at the heart of american democracy, and that is the peaceful transfer of power, something that has defined this country since george washington decided to get on his horse and go back to mt. vernon instead of serving a third term peacefully handing over power, or john adams losing the presidency and in 1801 doing something that americans weren't sure a sitting

president who lost would do, turn over power, but he did to thomas jefferson, and so has every president. mr. majority leader, for the last 220 years. and do you really want 220 years to have historians and have students see you and rudy giuliani ensnarled in a conspiracy to undermine american democracy. this isn't part of the shock opera. i'm not shocked or stunned or deep deeply saddened. i know who's going to be president of the united states on january 20th, 2021, and so do you, but the question is will you continue to be part of a conspiracy that while not changing the outcome of this election will undermine tens of

millions of americans' confidence in american democracy. you know, mika heard me say this time and time again during barack obama's presidency, a presidency where i didn't support a lot of the policies that he pushed forward, but i remember hearing rush limbaugh say that he was cheering against barack obama. he was rooting against barack obama, and i said time and again, you can't cheer against the president of the united states without cheering against america, that i didn't cheer against presidents even if i disagreed with them, i prayed for them because i was praying for america. in this case, mitch, this isn't about undermining americans' faith in joe biden. you know this. that's what makes this so sick,

mitch. this isn't about undermining americans' faith in joe biden, one man, one party. it's about undermining america's faith in democracy, in the rule of law, and that's what you're doing right now. the gig is up. it's time to tell the president that he and rudy and their confederacy of dunces need to stop making fools of themselves, and let the next commander in chief get ready to protect and defend this country. let the next president of the united states start preparing to distribute vaccines to tens of millions, to hundreds of millions of americans. we are way past time, and the

president that you are now running cover for, he's doing nothing but tweeting conspiracy theories and trying to undermine american democracy. enough, mitch. enough. >> still ahead, china, antifa, venezuela and -- >> don't forget, the british and george soros just because they wanted to throw in a little anti-semitism. >> why not? it's a reality show. >> it seemed like the thing to do. >> that's just a partial list of who rudy giuliani blamed yesterday for the president's loss, for his defeat. more from that bizarre, sweaty appearance next on "morning joe." make family-sized meals fast. and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do things no other oven can, like flip away. the ninja foodi air fry oven, the oven that crisps and flips away. ♪

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in that bizarre news conference yesterday, rudy giuliani along with the rest of trump's legal team left no stone unturned when it came to assigning unfounded blame. the list -- and it's a long

one -- includes china, antifa, george soros, two presidents of venezuela, one dead and one living, big tech, including a specific web server from germany, multiple major u.s. cities, american citizens who volunteer at polling precincts, the country of argentina, somehow the late chicago mayor richard daly, the country of cu cuba, two voting machine companies and a british baron. i have no words, willie. >> yeah, i mean, again, it was a clown show, but unfortunately you have to say, again, it's a clown show that a lot of people this this country are listening to and starting to believe because the president of the united states has joined in the clown show. he's now calling canvassing board members in wayne county, michigan, urging her to change

her vote trying to get her to decertify, inviting republican lawmakers from michigan to the white house to sit down and talk. the problem with that is there's no provision in the state of michigan for any lawmakers to go in and somehow change the free and fair vote of the people of the state of michigan. coming up, once again, mitt romney is willing to say what his republican colleagues just won't. the senator's statement on the undermining of democracy, next on "morning joe." "morning joe. welcome to a better way to live. is that your home? dun, dun ,dun. hold on, stop! you accessorize with a sloth? this is belt. [ chuckling ] great sash. oo-la la! you can crush ice, make nismoothies, and do even more. chop salsas, spoon thick smoothie bowls, even power through dough, and never stall.

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as joe points out, it falls again to one senator effectively, one republican senator to speak out. in a statement on twitter, utah senator mitt romney, again mitt romney said, quote, having failed to make even a plausible case of widespread fraud or conspiracy before any court of law, the president has now resorted to overt pressure on state and local officials to subvert the will of the people and overturn the election. it is difficult to imagine a worse, more undemocratic action by a sitting american president. that's a statement from mitt romney.

in a statement to nbc news, nebraska senator ben sasse said this, quote, what matters most at this stage is not the latest press conference or tweet but what the president's lawyers are actually saying in court, and based on what i've read in their filings, when trump campaign lawyers have stood before courts under oath, they have repeatedly refuse to actually allege grand fraud because there are legal consequen consequences for lying to governors. and iowa's senator joni ernst challenged the baseless claims about election wrongdoing, specifically the accusations by one of the president's lawyers, a woman named sydney powell. >> we believe in the integrity of our election system, which is why i do believe that if there is fraud out there, it should be brought to the court's attention -- >> sure. >> -- if the proof should be brought forward. i think all of us agree on that, but to insinuate that republican and democratic candidates paid

to throw off this election, i think is absolutely outrageous. >> so joe, where that theory is coming from from senator ernst is that you actually had one of the president's attorneys kind of firing a warning shot at republicans saying you may have stolen this election, too. we're coming for you effectively a threat if you don't get on board. but again, it falls to mitt romney to be the conscience of the republicans in the senate. and what, again, is extraordinary is that it's considered extraordinary that any senator would speak out in defense of democracy, of what we're seeing. is it really difficult to criticize what president trump and rudy giuliani are saying here? does it really take courage to do that? or is it the obvious and easiest thing you could possibly do? again, it's mitt romney leading the way. we'll see if anyone else follows. >> mitt romney said what every republican should be saying right now. we're grateful that he did say that.

ben sasse, very grateful that ben sasse said, again, something that many of us look at at being obvious, but you know what? regardless, i'll just say it dpsh. >> it is obvious. >> i'm grateful he's saying what needs to be said. joni ernst is right, it is outrageous. i'm glad she's saying what is outrageous. and republicans, it's interesting, all along you can go state by state, and you can see that donald trump is attacking everybody. it's crazed and it's chaotic, but he's attacking republicans as well as democrats. he attacked the republican secretary of state in georgia because donald trump lost georgia, right? right? this is like a fat kid getting up to a plate and striking out and then going back and bullying somebody on the bench and pushing him around saying you made me strike out. what? i was just sitting over here chewing gum.

that's exactly what he's doing, and then you go up to pennsylvania, and you actually have pat toomey, a republican senator in pennsylvania while these court cases are going on saying nothing is going to come of this. this is going to lead us nowhere. you have scott walker in wisconsin saying what is true, that a recount there is not going to change anything. and of course it didn't stop donald trump. he couldn't help himself from having recounts in the counties where there are the most black voters, but donald trump is attacking everybody. >> yeah. >> because he came up short. donald trump is attacking everybody because he had the worst debate in the history of american politics. donald trump is attacking everybody because he ran the dumbest campaign in the history of politics. instead of talking about the economy, he'd talk about conspiracy theories. instead of talking about jobs, he would talk about how we

needed to arrest his opponent. instead of talking about the coronavirus, he would talk about, again, conspiracy theories. he lost the campaign, and now he's blaming republicans and democrats alike, and i got to say if you're a sitting republican representative and you can't attack the president for undermining american democracy and get reelected, you just are so pathetic at your job you don't deserve a vote. >> and also just from trump's point of view -- because you can always, as we know him well, you can get in his brain and know what he's thinking right now. this is such ugly flailing, and he knows it. it's a bad show. trump likes to have his reality shows, his pageants with the lights and glossy and it's dramatic and it's colorful, and it's beautiful. what happened yesterday i can't say what it was because it's not a word i can say on television, but it wasn't a good show. no one would want to watch this

again. and i couldn't even watch this as we were bumping into it at the top of the show today. stop, alex. alex. >> that's what it was. that's what it was. >> stop right now. >> by the way, that's a reflection of ivanka. that's a reflection of jared. that's a reflection of their children. they are sitting back quietly -- >> embarrassed. >> -- sending out beauty shots of, i don't know, landscapes or whatever they're sending out beauty shots of while her father is doing everything he can to undermine american democracy. >> in the ugliest way possible. >> and by the way, 306 electoral votes and more votes, more votes than any candidate has ever received in the history of this constitutional republic, and yet the name trump is going to be

synonymous for generations to come for undermining american democracy, trying to undermine the results of an election and the wishes of 80 million people. >> and dripping the spray-on hair. coming up, rhode island is among the states rolling out new policies to fight back against the pandemic, we'll talk to that state's governor, gina raimondo next on "morning joe." a live bookkeeper is helping

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what do you say to americans, especially immigrant americans who came to the united states looking for political stability and seeing all of the things that the president is doing? >> hang on, i'm on my way. that's what i say to them. not a joke. >> and a lot of people are taking that to heart. >> good for him. >> hey, willie and mika, we of

course are thinking about rachel maddow and her partner of 20 years, susan. very emotional last night, rachel was very emotional last night talking about susan getting it and having it and at one point they were very concerned about whether she would survive it or not, and rachel gave a really heartfelt message. >> and a plea to please don't gather at thanksgiving. like nothing is worth it. >> nothing is worth it and -- but very moving and certainly we're thinking of and praying for susan and rachel and of course everybody else out there, willie. everybody else out there who is suffering from covid, this is real, and people need to be careful and need to understand right now the biggest worry is

that huge groups are going to get together on thanksgiving that haven't been tested, and covid could spread throughout families like wildfire. >> yeah, that was a truly, truly beautiful moment last night from rachel. she's been home for a couple of weeks, and people wondered where she was, and she explained it to us. we knew she was isolating herself because of potential exposure to it, but we didn't know the extent of it. her partner of 21 years, i think she said, susan, the person she loves most in the world very, very sick with covid. getting better now and expected to make a recovery. rachel said last night there was a moment where she thought susan wasn't going to make it, that they thought she was going to die from coronavirus. her plea was please recalibrate the way you're thinking. if you're thinking about i'm going to go out and do things because i'm not worried about myself getting coronavirus. think about the other people in your life that could potentially

get sick. and i think the way rachel put it was could you possibly bear it, could you live with yourself if you got someone you love as sick as susan has been. i join you in offering our love and our prayers to rachel and susan. if you haven't seen it, go online and watch rachel last night. let's turn now to this topic, joe -- >> it really is. >> oh, go ahead. >> i'm so sorry, deborah birx tells the story of her mother who had given the spanish flu, i think it was, to her mother who passed away, and it was something that she lived with for her entire life. >> drove her career. >> and it really drove her career and drove her to where she is right now, and i'm sorry to interrupt because of the delay, but it really does undermine what rachel said last night that there are a lot of us that feel that we can handle anything and we can go out, and

yeah, but there are others that are around us that we love that may not be tabable to handle th coronavirus as well as maybe you or i or mika could do. and we have to always keep that in mind. >> yeah, absolutely. and rachel pointed out the added pain of not being able to be with the person you love the most in the world while she's sick. all you want to do is go and help that person. you can't even be in the same place while they're sick with coronavirus. so please heed that message and watch rachel's clip last night. let's turn on this subject to the governor of rhode island, democrat gina raimondo. she just imposed new coronavirus restrictions for her state. she's preparing the state's health department to enter pfizer's pilot program for vaccine distribution. governor, raimondo, it's good to have you on with us this morning. explain a little bit what you're doing in terms of new restrictions in your state. you have this sort of two-week pause as you're calling it. what does that entail, and why did you feel like you needed to

take that step? >> yeah, good morning, guys. it's great to be with you this morning. so like many places, our cases are on the rise. we're in the thick of our second wave, and i felt it was necessary and responsible to impose the two-week pause. it's the two weeks after thanksgiving. i certainly hope rhode islanders do the right thing and stay home for thanksgiving, but if some don't, then we're going to have a two-week break thereafter. i'm asking everybody to hunker down. i have prioritized keeping the kids in school. i've prioritized keeping as many businesses open as possible, but in that two weeks we are closing bars, closing gyms, really clamping down on restaurants and asking folks just as you were talking about just stay with the people you live with. so i have imposed a social gathering limit to the people

that you live with, and we're asking people, you know, listen, i know this is hard. i know we've been at it for a long time, but if you decide to break the rules and go ahead and have a party or have that baby shower or have that birthday party, you need to know other people are going to die, are going to get sick, are going to lose their jobs, and it's just not the right thing to do. >> kbrgovernor, you mentioned schools, it is a balancing act every state is dealing with. new york city a couple of days ago closed down its in-person learning to 1.1 million students. how are you looking at this? i guess you've closed pre-k through 8th grade schools, limited openings for high schools. how did you make that decision, and how do you answer to some of the teachers' unions who are saying at this point you ought to just put all the schools into online learning. that's how serious it is right now. >> yes, so we -- i am keeping k through 8 fully open in person,

even during the pause, and we've encouraged high schools to stay open if they can, but we've said if they can't due to space limitations, they can go virtual for the pause. listen, there is no data anywhere across america or across the world to suggest that schools are vectors of spread, but what we do know with certainty is that our children suffer when they're not in school. so i've taken a pretty hard line on this one. we are cleaning, we're requiring mask wearing, we're keeping windows open so everyone's safe, but the children need and deserve to be in school, and so we are doing everything we can to keep as many kids in school as long as possible. >> so governor, what about testing in your state? it seems like we're hearing

reports of just nightmare scenarios where people are in cars for hours. i mean, just to get a simple test. it's unbelievable that we're still having this problem. are you hearing this from residents of your state? >> we are. fortunately, rhode island, we moved quickly and early to set up a lot of testing partnerships, so we thankfully due to the hard work of my team, we still lead the nation in testing, highest per capita testing in the country, but it is a struggle, you know. you can get a test. we're able to test symptomatics and asymptomatics, but there are delays, and you know, it may take a few days to get your test, and so we are enhancing capacity on a daily basis. our goal is between now and when the pause begins, i'd like to double our amount of testing from where we are now. so listen, nobody expected the federal government and the trump

administration to fully fall down on the job as much as they did, and so that has left the states to scramble. thankfully, our systems are working in rhode island and testing is just a key tool in the toolbox to keep people safe. >> governor gina raimondo, thank you very much for being on the show. best of luck to you as we all work in this together. up next, we're going to dive back into joe's new book on harry truman, a look at president truman's uncanny ability to time and time again prove his critics wrong, including his harshest critic of all, his mother-in-law. keep it right here on "morning joe." how about no no

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and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do things no other oven can, like flip away. the ninja foodi air fry oven, the oven that crisps and flips away. in our own time, we've seen brave men overcome obstacles that seemed insurmountable and forces that seemed overwhelming, men with courage and vision can still determine their own destiny. they can choose slavery or freedom, war or peace. i have no doubt which they will choose, the treaty we are signing here today is evidence of the path they will follow. if there is anything certain today, if there is anything inevitable in the future, it is the will of the people of the world for freedom and for peace. >> nato just not larger, tonight

there are three new members all of whom used to be on the other side. secretary of state madeleine albright welcomed nato's newest members in independence, missouri, the birthplace of harry truman who was president when nato was founded. the czech republic, poland and hungary pwere part of the warsa pact, but that became history when the cold war ended along with the old soviet union. and today poland, hungary and the czech republic became the newest members of nato. the nbc "nightly news" report on hungary, poland, and the czech republic joining nato 50 years after the treaty to ensure european security was first signed by president harry truman. >> how amazing is madeleine albright. >> i love her. she's so strong and her career, it's incredible, the impact she's had on the world. that effort and foresight to

establish the north atlantic treaty organization is something joe writes about in his new book entitled "saving freedom: truman, the cold war, and the fight for western civilization." it's coming out this tuesday, but you can preorder it now. and joining us now this morning to discuss the book we have former u.s. ambassador to nato and former state department spokesman nicholas burns. he is a professor of diplomacy in international relations at the harvard kennedy school of government. also with us, pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. thank you for joining us. i was struck by how often harry truman was underestimated by his peers, mocked by elites and he proved them all wrong time and time again. it kind of reminds me of another democrat who gets sworn in as president on january 20th.

>> that's true. you can look at joe biden, and again, i think there are so many similarities between joe biden and harry truman. one of those similarities is they were underestimated for large chunks of their career. harry truman spent a career being underestimated and attacked by his republican opponents and also by media elites, and for truman, the attacks were harsh and unceasing. a prominent journalist and historian said that truman was a, quote, strange little man when he arrived in washington. at the same time, the "new york times" dismissed him asas. they were going around the room, they were exhausted. truman's name finally came up and fdr's chief of staff asked who the hell is harry truman. after the pick "time" said that

fdr's election was a, quote, mouse psy little man from missouri and others mocked the selection as the second missouri compromise. what i found so remarkable researching harry just reading about truman throughout my entire life is, even after he reached the white house, republicans and democrats still mocked him. they adopted the phrase, to err is truman. even when he was running for president in 1948 under the democratic banner, democrats adopted this dark humor about their supposedly doomed candidate, and they'd hold up signs that it was a takeoff of a popular song at the time. it was said, i'm just mild about harry. but the unkindest cut of all came from truman's own mother-in-law who let him know when he was younger that he was not good enough to marry her daughter bess. and gene robinson, you talk

about getting no respect. rodney dangerfield, american politics. even when he was in the white house where he let his mother-in-law live. she still let him know that compared to fdr, he was a disappointment. but it's pretty remarkable how truman, to his credit, always kept his head down. kept campaigning and governing. and at the end of his life he left the white house with a 22% approval rating but in the judgment of winston churchill, he was a man who, quote, did more than any other person to save western civilization. i would take winston churchill's phrase over everybody else's rebukes any day of the week on that topic. >> yeah, i think i would, too. and, you know, the thing about harry truman, and you bring it out in the book, and congratulations, by the way, on the book. i really enjoyed. but he knew who he was.

everybody else didn't necessarily know who he was, but he knew what he was, and he was -- talk about a gutsy guy, you know. harry truman who, for example, desegregated the armed forces of our country. he was -- he was not afraid to follow his convictions. but one thing the book really suggests to me, and speaks to me about is how important it is to the nation and the world who is president, right? the occupant of that office can have such an impact on the entire world as harry truman did. an impact that continues to this day. and i'm wondering how you see that aspect of truman and

truman's impact. in the context of today, when we have had this sort of disruption in the world order. we've seen the rise of china. we've seen the decline into the -- into dangerous corruption in russia and the break up of the soviet union. that's not all settled yet. and so it matters that it's going to be joe biden, how do you think it's going to matter? >> well, let's just look at -- let's go back to 1944. and when they were in chicago, and they were in smoke-filled rooms and you had fdr's brain trust trying to figure out who was going to be roosevelt's next vice president because roosevelt, though he was in many ways close to henry wallace, understood they needed someone else. that he might not survive and fdr and others didn't trust henry wallace to be the next vice president of the united

states. the second missouri compromise did end up being harry truman. nobody at that time expected truman to do what he did, which was in effect create a foreign policy that over the next 70 years would actually shape what the next 12 presidents, the next 12 commander in chiefs who followed him would do. the other thing about truman, and you touched on such an important point, he was a lot like ronald reagan who just didn't give a damn at the end of the day what his critics thought about him. i had two pictures in my office when i was in congress. one was of harry truman. one was of ronald reagan. truman began the cold war. reagan and george h.w. bush ended the cold war. but what i thought was -- so unbelievable about harry truman was he was getting attacked from all sides. and he just didn't care.

henry wallace, not only was eviscerating harry truman and other progressives at the time. not only attacking harry truman, the united states, wallace would go to great britain and have speaking tours and attack the american president for standing up to stalin. and so elections do have consequences. and perhaps no other vice presidential selection in the history of this republic mattered more than what happened in chicago in 1944 when roosevelt decided -- and the convention in chicago, decided that harry truman was going to be roosevelt's vice president. and nick burns, i'm sure you can speak to this. if henry wallace had guided us through the first few years after world war ii, when stalin's designs on western europe were quite clear, history

would have turned on a dime and things would look far different today. >> i think that's right, joe. and i want to say, congratulations on your new book. i am wearing my nato tie today in honor of your book. >> nice. >> and i just want to say, joe, you are so right to write this book. and i hope a lot of people will read it. this time in our history. because truman's great insight -- the irony is he wasn't formally educated, but he was so intelligent and so historically minded. he understood america had to be out in the world to defend america. and that's nato. and that's the power differential that nato is. russia has no allies. and i was ambassador to nato on 9/11, and when they came to our rescue, all of them and said we'll go into afghanistan with you, it's a powerful moment. and donald trump just doesn't understand this history. it's not in his dna. he's done enormous damage, and i agree with both of you, even mika. joe biden is going to bring us back into a full embrace of

nato. >> i really think so. and ambassador, can you explain how the 12 presidents who followed harry truman, everything they did was shaped by what this man who graduated from the spalding commercial college in kansas city. just like reagan graduated from eureka. but these two men shaped the beginning and the end of this cold war. but explain how everything truman did. it was ubiquitous, not only through the united states government but across the world. >> well, that's exactly right. and i think it's one of the great chapters, truly, in the history of the united states, that after the second world war, truman understood that we had to develop a democratic alliance to contain soviet power. and he did it with the creation of nato and he supported what became the common market and the

european union. and you can think about it when the cold war was ending and you're right, joe. ronald reagan and george h.w. bush led us to victory in the cold war. we expanded democracy and freedom all the way to the russian border. and all those countries, about 120 million people in poland and the baltic states and hungary are now free. and i have to say this, mika. when we were expanding nato a second time in 2004, we took in seven new countries. i was the u.s. ambassador to nato. one of the people who was pivotal in that was a young man named ian brzezinski. so victory has a thousand fathers. but, joe, your book is so -- >> yes it does. >> -- reminds us of this. >> thank you so much. ian brzezinski, would try to make russia a member of nato. >> no, he wouldn't. he's done such a great job. >> exactly. i stand corrected. by the way, the book is dedicated to mika's father and people also like, you know, the people like madeleine albright

and others who dedicated their public lives to actually defeating soviet communism. so gene, one other thing that we have forgotten in this country that -- sometimes by giving, we get back. and one of the great examples was what truman did with the marshall plan. something that we could never do today because people would demagogue it. but that helped pave the way for the american century. >> exactly. he understood that when other democracies flourish, when the democracies of europe that were being rebuilt flourished and became wealthy, that -- it made us flourish and made us become wealthy and made us safer. and he understood that relatively simple connection. it may not have been obvious to everybody at the time, but he saw the connection and

presidents after him saw the connection. sadly, our current president doesn't see it at all, and it has to be re-established. we have to get back to that idea because it's so important, this rising tide of democracy and prosperity does raise all. >> eugene robinson and nicholas burns, thank you both. you really do see in these conversations the great timing of this book. thank you both so much for coming on for this discussion. >> shout out to ian. that's great. >> ian is a big nato supporter. and next week, we'll be continuing these discussions on joe's new book with more pulitzer prize-winning historians, best-selling authors and foreign policy experts. maybe we should have ian on? that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it's friday, november 20th. i'm here in new york. we've got a huge show for you with tons of moving parts.