it's part of an attempt to overthrow the will of the voters there by blocking their certification of the vote. "the new york times" reports this. quote, for mr. trump and his republican allies, michigan has become the prime target in their campaign to subvert the will of voters backing mr. biden in the recent election. mr. trump called at least one gop elections official in the detroit area this week after she voted to certify mr. biden's overwhelming victory there. and he is now set to meet with legislatures ahead of monday to certify the results. "the times" describes trump's chances at succeeding at this as, quote, somewhere between remote and impossible. and biden campaign attorney bob bower warns that what donald trump is agitating for michigan to do is against federal statute as well as a violation that the constitutional right to vote and due process. and as trump's defeat is revealed day after day and hour

after hour gets larger and more sweeping and free from any and all conspiracies to defraud the vote, "the times" adds this. quote, the president has also asked aides what republican officials he could call in other battleground states in his effort to prevent the certification of results that would formalize his loss to biden. but the fact that trump keeps it up, even though his scheme won't work in the end isn't this whole point. trump is infecting the public's faith in the integrity of our own democracy and one of its central tenants, the sanctity of the vote. and he's doing it out of spite and anger and revenge at the entire country for not picking him. "the washington post" pulls back the curtain on the depths of trump's increasingly desperate misinformation campaign and the danger of mainlining disinformation into trump's base of support this way. quote, the conspiracy that machines by dominion, a colorado-based manufacturer,

were programmed to rig the election has spread wild on right wing websites and social media and has become an obsession of trump's in recent days. the post adds this. quote, there is no evidence to support this theory. the president as a threat to the continuity of government and american democracy is where we start again today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. former obama campaign manager, david plouffe is back. also with us, phil rucker, and nbc news correspondent, heidi przybyla. heidi, i have been reading all of your dispatches about the process and the people impacted my what ft.'s trying to do in michigan. take us through where that stands and what the reaction is in the state of michigan. >> nicole, of everything that i've reported, i think the most significant is, that based on my reporting, these republicans that showed up today knew full well what this was about and they came anyway.

based on my reporting, last night, things were very uncertain whether they would actually come under these circumstances given the implications and how this could affect confidence in the vote in michigan as well as in many of these other states, and they came anyway. they know that there is no legal mechanism for what trump is asking them to do and yet, they were okay coming. that has got many people very upset. i was on a call with the former governor of michigan, jennifer granholm, who even said, thaez guys should wear a wire because they could face charges coming back if there's any kind of conspiracy here in this meeting or anything that amounts to a conspiracy to overturn the election in michigan. this is really about muddying the water, nicole, dragging this out, and further eroding public trust in our institutions and our democracy and in this vote, because based on our reporting

and everybody in michigan knows this, including these two gentlemen who are at the white house right now, that there's no way that they can legally overturn the certification, which is due to take place on monday. if one of the republican board members, nicole, balks and refuses to certify this election based on constitutional experts i've talked to in michigan, they will be taken to court for that. and that will be swiftly corrected. the legislature does not have a role here, unless there's some kind of really, really ahistoric event that take place. but guess what, the governor would have to sign that. this really is all about show, but the significant news here is that these lawmakers, to speak to your point about infection, were willing to go along with it. and that's why when i talked to granholm, she said, look, this is so upsetting. it's ahistoric. it's un-american. in her words, not to leave out, quote, pathetic. nicole?

>> pathetic. pathetic is a word that you hear across the ideological spectrum, phil rucker. a source who had supported trump in the election but is not a fan of how he's conducting himself in its aftermath used a similar word to describe this defiance of our democracy and suggested it could all be a big grift. that he has a legal defense fund stood up and he expects to rack up tons, millions of dollars of legal fees defending himself in the new york cases. and this is an effort to exact some revenge or punishment on joe biden or the country. what do you hear about how long trump plans to carry it out? >> you're exactly right, nicole, about what the president is trying to do here. and i think he's going to carry this out as long as he's able to. look, he tried for several weeks to do these legal challenges in court. they failed.

every single one of them. and got nowhere. the trump team was unable to prove any sort of widespread fraud, as his lawyers had alleged in court. and so now they're on to the second act, which is this public relations campaign and this effort to use the power of the presidency, to use his very office, as heidi was just describing, to change the minds and to persuade some of these republican state elections officialses to go against the will of the people in their state, to potentially subvert the outcome of the election. that's what's happening right now. that's what rudy giuliani's press conference yesterday was all about. that's what this meeting with the michigan lawmakers is all about. it's the reason why president trump for days now has been tweeting, badgering publicly the republican governor of georgia, ryan kemp, to intervene in that state's hand recount, to try to throw out ballots, to flip the result in georgia. and that's going to continue

according to our reporting until the president has no other options left. and it's important to see how few of the president's actual lawyers and advisers are standing behind this effort. there are a few lawyers at the republican national committee yesterday but you did not see the more respected lawyers in the president's orbit fronting this. you did not see pat cipollone, you did not see jay sekulow or even chris christie, who's been supporting the president in various other moments or rana mcdaniel, the rnc chair. all of those people have been keeping their distance from this, because there are clear divides in trump's orbit about how smart or effective the strategy is. >> david plouffe, phil rucker is always diplomatic and elegant. i won't be as elegant. rudy and sydney poweci sidney p like lunatics. put aside the hair dye streaming down rudy's face, the things he

was saying were so demonstrably false, that last night tucker carlson over on false called bs on this team that phil just described. these lawyers who aren't even associated with some of the lawyers who have associated with trump's other trespasses. i want your thoughts on that and your thoughts on the process. the certification today in georgia and the republican trump-supporting secretary of state is holding the line on democracy and on the vote there in certifying georgia's vote for joe biden. next tuesday is nevada's deadline. monday the 30th is arizona and t tuesday, december 1st is wisconsin. someone said to me last night, we're overestimating trump if we think he has a strategy or even knows when all of these dates are, but what do you think the next few days hold for our country and our now-fragile democracy? >> nicole, it's infuriating we're even having to talk about certification deadlines in race

that wasn't that close. we should be well into the biden transition now, trump had conceded and begin how to plan the dark winter that's coming for he and his family. but based on the certification deadlines, by the end of the day monday, he will be certified in enough states, joe biden, to have over 270 electoral votes. doesn't mean that trump won't continue to raise money in the biggest grift in american history. that will continue. but i think the story here is these two republican legislators, hard to get in their mind, given what they're doing today. but my sense is, once it got out they may come, they thought it was impossible not to. and that's really the story here. trump is standing in historical fashion. he was already the worst president in my view. now he's probably the most unpatriotic person in the country's history. so he will live in infamy. but to still have this many republicans, either openly supporting -- so rana mcdaniel, the chair of the rnc didn't show up, but the social media

accounts of the gop raised that press conference yesterday, which was a freak show. i mean, they're talking about basically hugo chavez's ghost rigging the election, okay? and so, you know, nicole, you and i have talked about this. what trump is doing, it's not strategic, he doesn't have a plan, it's not going to work, it's hapless, but the damage here will be with us for a very, very throng time when you have this percentage of the american people not believing the results of this election, not believing their free and fair elections can be trusted and i think you'll see republican politicians in the next two election cycles at a minimum pull this card, as if the votes don't matter. so this is the undermipinning o our democracy, that we believe in self-government, that the vote is sacred, and that people who lose elections acknowledge that result. this is the first time many american history that's not happened. and that stain will be with us for a long, long time. >> i agree. someone said to me last night that losing takes a bigness that donald trump is not capable of.

and i think former president obama obviously didn't lose in 2016, but he has spoken about how difficult it was to make those calls. but he threw open the government to a trump transition. i mean, david plouffe, what do you make of -- it's not just a freak show without doing terrible harm, not just in the long-term for democracy, but in the very short-term to our ability to respond to the covid pandemic and our ability to have continuity of government in the national security agencies. trump is doing real damage right now. joe biden is having to raise money, because trump will not engage in the peaceful transfer of power. listen, talking to barack obama during that period, it was incredibly hard, obviously, but he believed so fervently, both in terms of his studying of american history, but also how president george w. bush and his administration had handled that

transition. it is not a long time from election day in this country to the inauguration. you know, like years or certainly months, but you only have 2 1/2 months to put together your government. so every day that you're not able to do that is a day wasted. our ability to deal with the pandemic, our ability to really begin to work with our allies in a more cooperative sense is hamstrung. and that's the other thing. trump has spent every waking moment, every tweet, every breath on these conspiracy theories, because he doesn't want to admit he's losing. he's not paying attention at all to the virus, which is now much worse than it was back in the spring. so, yeah, there are real consequences in the short-term, but i really believe something fundamentally has been broken here around this country's belief. we've always been unified in that. we fight hard, we fight as hard as you can to win an election. but if you lose it, you congratulate your opponent, wish them well and move on. and now the president of the united states, who basically leads a cult now, he doesn't lead a modern political party,

and to have so many members of that cult, some who believe it. in my view, most don't believe it. and that's even more of a sin. they know it's all bs and they're going along with it because they're afraid of him. and it is pathetic, historically so. >> it is pathetic, historically so. it will be viewed that way or worse. heidi, just to pick up on david plouffe's point, there are some people, it's a very, very minuscule minority, but there are some trump-sporting republicans such as the georgia secretary of state, who's able to articulate what david just did. my guy didn't win, and but the result of the vote is the result of the vote and joe biden's the winner. let's watch and see if this could hopefully, possibly be a sign of things to come. >> as i've said before, i'm a proud trump supporter. i was with him early in the 2016 election cycle and he's governed the nation by the same conservative principles that i

hold dear. like other republicans, i'm disappointed our candidate didn't win georgia's electoral votes. as secretary of state, i believe that the numbers that we present today are correct. the numbers reflect the verdict of the people, not a decision by the secretary of state's office, or of courts, or of either campaigns. >> now, heidi, obviously that counts as breaking national news, because as david plouffe is saying, not many republicans are able to acknowledge the reality of the vote. but does georgia give other states that are next in the cue courage to do the right thing? >> we'll be tested in the coming days. there will be a series of tests here because trump picked michigan because they have a gop legislature. these two members have shown that there is at least some weakness in the wall here, although my reporting is that they plan to tell him that they

will uphold michigan state law, but how long will they play along with this? will the republicans on the state canvassing board also refuse to scertify, further protecting this progress, further feeding into this fantasy, this fake narrative that somehow the votes were tainted in michigan, when it's just not even close, by 150,000 votes, joe biden won michigan. what about members of congress, nico nicole? when are members of congress going to start speaking out more? we saw mitt romney laoiritt rom with a very strong tweet, but what about those voices? the question is really not answerable at this point, whether those who are coming forward are going to be enough to stem this dam for part of the country that is going off, that our elections are fair, challenging, dually elected president and blocking him from the powers that he needs to try to have a safe transition amid a

pandemic. i'm not ready to say that there's enough voices to prevent this corrosion that has already begun and already evident with what we're seeing at the national level and now at the state level. >> it's a good point. and i share your concern. phil rucker, axios is reporting that some administration officials say it's borderline impossible to have a serious possible conversation these days without trump turning it into a rant about the dominion voting machine conspiracy that i know you and your colleagues reported on, as well. most hard-core trump sources have psychologically bailed and are just waiting out the storm. i've heard a similar sort of state of affairs at the campaign where they go through the motions of calls, but most of them look at what rudy is doing as exactly what david plouffe described it as, a freak show. what is happening at the white house? what are they doing?

>> nicole, you have a president who by all accounts appears to be psychologically broken after this campaign. he's clearly not involved in the coronavirus response. there was a task force meeting yesterday he did not attend. he's not attended one in several months, by the way. we almost never see him publicly, although we did today, where he read from a scripted statement, about a health care announcement and walked away from the podium without taking any questions. but other than that, we've seen him live on twitter, live on watching cable news, live on the phone with rudy giuliani, where they're plotting all of these conspiracies and tactics and statements. and the president, according to my reporting the reporting of my colleagues at "the post" has been very busy talking to friends and allies outside of the white house, focused entirely on the vote, on the dominion conspiracy that's not

true, on finding ways to produce evidence that doesn't exist. on plotting strategies to overturn the results of the election in these states. that's not governing. that's not the job he's fighting to hard to keep, of course. and he's really in a bad state. i think it's striking we have not seen him publicly defend some of the things his lawyers have been saying or taking the case directly to the american people, as we're used to see through these four years. >> phil rucker, i want to give you one last word and i don't want to put you on the spot, but is there any sense -- i know there's another coronavirus outbreak in the white house, i believe rudy giuliani's son has tested positive. we wish him good health and a speedy recovery, but is there any sense there that the gig is up and that they are all doing themselves harm? this is an incredibly self-centered group of people that really never understood the public service part of getting a

taxpayer-funded paycheck. but is there any effort on the 18 acres to look for the exits or are they carrying out the fiction for donald trump's psychological state, as you're reporting? >> well, you know, they're going through the motions of carrying out that fiction. and we're seeing some of them, you know, kayleigh mcennany dida briefing where she carried the flag for the president and there are others doing work for him. but when you really talk to officials inside the white house, they realize what's going on and they realize they're going to be out of a job come january 20th. some of them are already casting about for unemployment elsewhere or for what their next sort of personal opportunity might be. they're not focused on trying to subvert the election and help trump, you know, effectively steal a second term. >> phil rucker, it must be a remarkable time of all of the remarkable news cycles, this has to be one of the most.

thank you so much for spending some time with us and for your great reporting. heidi and david are sticking around and when we come back, president-elect biden running out of patience with trump's refusal to concede and commence with a peaceful transition of power. we'll look at what his allies on capitol hill are doing to try to hold trump officials accountable. and our friend and colleague rachel maddow returned to our air last night at long last with a deeply personal and deeply moving plea for all americans to do whatever they can, in her words, not to get this thing. and if not for themselves, to do it to protect the people they love most on this earth. plus, former president obama with some advice to vice president-elect kamala harris about breaking barriers. all of those stories still coming up. don't go anywhere. se stories sli coming up. don't go anywhere. an official message from medicare. did you try it yet? comparing plans? oh yeah. they sure can change year to year. i found lower premiums - and lower prescription costs. and those new insulin savings! hundreds of plans, $35 a month.

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i already did. oh. . last hour, a rare opportunity to see president-elect joe biden and vice president-elect kamala harris with congressional leaders. it was their first meeting with house speaker nancy pelosi and senate minority leader chuck schumer. nbc news has learned that president-elect biden is trying but finding it harder and harder to remain patient with trump's unpresidential and frankly pathetic refusal to allow his administration to participate in a transition. and while biden's advisers hesitate at this point to pursue legal action, democrats are demanding an explanation and threatening a public hearing from the head of the general services administration as to why she is yet to ascertain biden's clear victory. we're back with heidi and david. david, you mentioned in the first block that joe biden is

now having to raise money from citizens to pay for a transition. that's not how it's supposed to be. there is money allocated for the transition. i spoke to a former intelligence official today who say they're less at this point concerned about biden not being able to have landing teams and all the agencies and more concern about some of the reasons why they would want to keep prying eyes out. when you look at the personnel move, there's some real concern that this might be even more sinister than it looks. do you think that's plausible? >> oh, i think it's probably more possible than plausible. i think they want to keep prying eyes away. i'm sure there's document disruption happening. so i think joe biden has handled this in a pitch-perfect way since the election. from his standpoint and his perch, i think he should continue to reassure the people they'll be ready to hit the

ground running. he's obviously putting together, i think, a very, very experienced, selfless team, unlike the current crew of grifters around our current president. i think you know, democrats on the hill could be a little bit more aggressive, subpoenaing the grks a director, maybe doing hearings in the coming days. i think they should put pressure on from that standpoint. but this is not a game. so every day you lose, you know, to plan properly, to be briefed on the current data and planning, i think biden will be able to make a lot of progress on who he's going to put in senior roles and we'll see more of that in coming days and weeks, including the cabinet, but there's no doubt this is unprecedented. we've always had, even from our most bitter elections, the transition has worked seamlessly. and that hasn't happened yet, but my guess is what people are going to find when they get access to the documents, to the files, to the plans or lack thereof is going to be pretty

horrifying. i think there is something more sinister afoot here for sure. but again, the fact that joe biden, so you have the incoming president having to raise money from private citizens to pay for a transition, because the sitting president in one of the largest grifts we've ever seen in american history is trying to raise money not really for a legal defense fund, but for his future prospects and his future lawsuit defenses. >> it is amazing, i mean, heidi, if you just follow the money part of the story, it speaks volumes about the assimilaymmea. part of the reason donald trump probably doesn't think it's such a big deal to withhold the transition, he threw all the transition binders that were created by his campaign into a dumpster and let his kids staff up the administration. that's how they ended up with mike flynn who was fired 14 days within. there is something to david plouffe's point about the hill maybe being able to play a more aggressive role. i want to play you from a letter they sent, that's a start, this

is from house oversight committee chairwoman, carolyn maloney. they wrote, your actions in blocking activities are having grave effects, including undermining the orderly transfer of power, impairing the incoming administration's ability to respond to the coronavirus pandemic, hampering its ability to address our nation's dire economic crisis, and endangering our national security. i see a lot of things on social media popping up about the duress that the head of the gsa is under. and it's lost on me. do your job. green light a transition of power. your guy lost. the next is joe biden. why is this even a thing? i am sure that an election that is really not in doubt by anyone other than rudy giuliani and donald trump allows for the gsa to release these funds. >> i have great respect for the

hill, but i don't know that these will be the ones who pierce this. they are looking at the december 14th deadline for the states to certify beyond this point which there is absolutely no plausible cover for gsa, emily murphy, to continue what she's doing here. the law is pretty clear that it is about the apparent winner and once those votes are certified, there's no explanation for this. they are organizing, however, an outside pressure campaign, because they know this if they pursue legal options at this point, by the time that works its way through the system, it's possible that the damage is done and we're already at the other end of this. this is the time they need to be hacking access to these files and having these conversations. there is a lot of concern about damages being done within the agencies right now in terms of document preservation,

individuals who are worried to even be talking informally to biden advisers. there were a lot of those inform contacts going on even before the election that have now ground to a halt after president trump signed this executive order, which allows him to really arbitrarily fire or moouch around career officials and so that's had a real chilling effect on this transition beyond what you see with the obvious that gsa emily will not sign these papers. >> >> and david plouffe, to come back to the idea we started with, the awol republican party that is more disgraceful by the day, but there are some members of the senate, rob portman is one of them, who was part of the executive branch, who understands precisely how important a transition is. and i'm not going to ask if you're surprised they won't say anything or do anything, but is this a potential become channel for the biden folks. is there any -- do you think there are any sort of weapons or

tools not being used at this point, or do you think that everyone is sort of accepting the president's intransigence? >> i think there's not much else to be done, nicole. i do think given the talent around biden, that he's already announced, you know, they're going to do the very best to be ready to assume the presidency. i don't think back channeling is what's needed here. we need republicans to come out and accept the election results. and i'm going to come across as an old, naive institutionalist, but this is the one thing that surprised me. it doesn't surprise me that trump is doing this. and it doesn't surprise me that he can find the freak show lawyers to be part of it, and jim jordan, he's got his crew. but i thought there would be more republicans. so the fact that mitt romney and ben sasse and mike dewine, the governor of ohio, have basically said the uncontroversial thing, that the winner of the election

is the winner of the election and we need to accept that, is so remarkable and we're getting so much criticism is striking. and so -- but i don't think it should wait until december 14th. you had georgia certified today. you'll have the rest of the battlegrounds for the most part certified next week. it's time for people to come out. and at the end of the day, you can argue, they'll lose their primaries, but they won't. i think, ultimately, the world moveses on pretty quickly. and i think as the rug gets pulled out of this latest donald trump ploy, i don't think these folks will pay a big price. and by the way, it's rumored today jim jordan is going to run against mike dewine in ohio. i would love to see that race. because i think at the end of the day mike dewine will pummel. that's what we need. i don't think there's like whispering or, we're going to help you with some secret papers or secret conversations, just come out and put pressure on the guy to do what's right here by the american people in the middle of a pandemic. >> it is such a pathetic and sad

state of affairs. thank you so much for spending some time with us and starting us off today. up next, my friend and colleague, rachel maddow implores every one of us to think of our loved ones when we calculate our own covid risk. we'll bring you her deeply personal message from her return to our broadcast last night. r rn to our broadcast last night. there are lots of people who are confused about which medicare plan is right for them. hey, that's me. i barely know where to start. well, start here with me, karen. i'm a licensed humana sales agent. well it's nice to meet you karen, i'm john smith. hi john. at humana we know you're unique, so you have different needs from other john smiths. yeah, i've always thought so. and together we can find a plan that's right for you. great! i go to the doctor a couple of times a year and i have some prescriptions, but i'm never fully sure of what's covered and what's not. with humana's all in one medicare advantage plans, you get coverage for hospital stays, doctor visits, and part d prescription drug benefits all

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what you need to know is that whoever is the most important person in your life, whoever you most love and most care for and most cherish in the world, that's the person who you may lose or who you may spend weeks up all night freaking out about and calling doctors all over, all over the place, over and over again, all night long, trying to figure out how to keep that person breathing and out of the hospital. for thanksgiving next week, you really are going to have to just have it at home without people coming over. and yeah, that's going to suck, but that is going to suck so much less than you or somebody in your family getting this and getting sick. trust me. >> our colleague, the one and only rachel maddow, returned to the air last night and opened up about what she and her partner, the love of her life, susan, are still going through. susan came down with the coronavirus, rachel reported, luckily, she has remained negative. it's a serious reminder, though, that the data that we report

every single day, those are all people. every single one of those people is someone that someone else, a whole family, loves more than anything else on the planet. and the situation is getting worse every single day. yesterday, more than 189,000 new cases were reported in this country. that is another new report so far, 11.8 million americans have been sickened and tragically, more than 254,000 souls have been lost to the coronavirus. today, there is a glimmer of home on the medical and science front, a day after dr. fauci praised some of the early vaccine data, pfizer says it has admitted its vaccine candidate to the fda for emergency use authorization today. it's the first vaccine maker in the u.s. to do so. join our conversation, dr. kavita patel, nbc news and msnbc medical contributor and a former obama white house health policy

director. i thought of you last night watching rachel, because i feel like what we tried to convey with statistics and science and health, day after day after day, rachel probably made more progress getting that message through in a more impactful way with her personal story. and i wonder if you had thoughts on that from sort of a public health standpoint. >> yeah, i think first of all, it takes a lot of courage to be incredibly vulnerable, as she has been and probably will continue to be, because sadly, nicole, susan is not even though, thank goodness she's recovering, as you and i have talked about, we don't know what this means for the long-term health of people so i can guarantee you that we're constantly thinking about it. and if we had to take any lessons from the past nine months, it's that the stories are real. but you always take time and

maybe that's what we need to do more of and show the humanity and also all of the kind of ugliness behind this. but we have to take a moment in history and continue to hold the president and his disregard for everybody -- we need to move forward, but we need to take a moment and have history take accountability for this. we cannot -- we cannot use what is an extraordinary outcome, which is two, maybe more vaccines, nicole, we can in the allow that as an excuse to not, you know, to forget the victims and people who are going to continue to suffer from what james foully calls negligent homicide because of this inaction and this incompetency that we're seeing on a national scale. >> you know, i guess, just to be -- make it personal for myself, i'm so frustrated that there are people that still

don't believe it's real. and i guess what i thought watching rachel, who is the smartest and strongest and bravest of all of us, reveal just how the everyday she's been as susan dealt with the worst phases, and as you said, thank god it's over, but it is online every single day and i know it's in the local stories because that's where ewhere we pull our stories from lives well lived, and i wonder if thebrokenness and polarization of our politics is trumping our humanity. that's why people are insisting on having indoor gatherings or raging about bars being closed. the vaccine news seems to be having the opposite -- who wants to be the last person to die of covid? there will be a vaccine next year. this is probably the only thanksgiving you'll ever miss. why are people still so defiant and resilient to some of the

public safety measures? >> well, i think that this campaign of disinformation has been working to simply put, i have even found doctors, nicole, shockingly, doctors who have said, well, it's not as bad, you know, and i have been prescribing hydroxychloroquine, despite there being evidence to the contrary. so there has been a systemic, large tech companies are to blame. honestly, the fact that even people such as myself were unable to connect initially and convince people that science matters, there's a lot of disinformation that has won. and yet at the same time, we see heroes, we've seen nurses and doctors from new york who are flying into utah, who are sacrificing their thanksgiving or anytime with their families to help out. so it's america is a tale of so many amazing contrasts. and i hope that we can kind of learn from this. just hearing president-elect

biden also have that same compassion, nicole, you saw that when he had that icu nurse that made him almost cry. that moment of humanity dud more good for people's awareness of covid than anything. just like rachel's words did. that moment is exactly what we needed to see more of with our leaders. and we will get passed this, but we need to hold people accountable and we must not forge forget. >> what is the potential for rolli ing out the vaccine? the vaccine news seems like the sun rising again and if we can distribute it and get it in everybody's arms, it seems like it is a really significant and important step. i saw bill gates in an interview this week, at this time next year saying, this could be over if we successfully manufacture and distribute the vaccines.

is that right? >> that's absolutely right. vaccines don't save lives, vaccinations do. you're exactly right, nicole. they have to get into people's arms. so we immediate to have -- the state needs funding. mitch mcconnell needs to get that funding off his desk and into state's budgets so we can stand up more widespread vaccination programs. otherwise, what i fear is going to happen is that you're going to see states that are better prepared and have had more time and resources. they will be likely the ones to lead. and then we're going to have another story where rural states and unfortunately the same states that are getting hit hardest by covid could end up suffering by not having smooth vaccination rollouts. but it is incredibly promising. i will say this, though, you know, the vaccine itself does not mean that we, you know, stop wearing masks or have to avoid some of the things that we're doing. so, yes, the light at the end of the tunnel, but getting through that tunnel is a frightening prospect in the next two months.

>> especially with winter coming. dr. kavita patel, we will continue to call on you, your wisdom and your expertise to get us through it. thank you so much. up next for us, former president barack obama with advice from one groundbreaking politician to another. you don't want to miss it. we'll be right back. r. you don't want to miss it. we'll be right back. ♪ here? nah. ♪ introducing the all new chevy trailblazer. here? nope. ♪

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uphold the constitution and the rules and laws that govern our democracy and that transcends whatever party you belong to, who you would prefer winning or losing. i didn't enjoy having to call donald trump and congratulate him for having won the night of his election four years ago. but i did it, because that's part of my job. >> that was former president barack obama last night right here on msnbc, striking a completely different tone from that of his successor, donald trump. the former president doing what leaders of this democracy have done for more than 200 years, while the current president ignores those traditions and norms and instead uses everything in his arsenal to try to convince the country or at least his base that he is not the loser president trump spoke about tru

-- president obama spoke about trump and much, much more. also join us, our friend, rev al sharpton, the president of the national action network. jonathan capehart, congratulations, my friend. this was a huge, huge scoop. you were the person huge scoop. you were the person he wanted to do this with and it was a remarkable interview. i was struck by -- i watched that clip and i've seen it a couple of times now. this is president obama saying we do hard things. democracy is hard. but you have to want it. and i wonder if you got the sense from him that he thinks that trump has done some irreparable dodge to t-- damage the country in the last two weeks. >> i think don't that president obama thinks that he has done irreparable damage but damage but not irreparable and that is the whole point of his book. he has hope for this country and that hope rests with the next generation, with young people. but he does think that damage is

being done. and as he said in the interview, he is not surprised any more by what donald trump has done or is doing. what surprises him is that there are republicans who are letting him get away with it. who are going -- who are just letting him do what he does and letting it happen and go unremarked and he also said that he believed that they're doing that because tear intimidated by the president. and we've seen it for four years. the president has used the bully pulpit of the presidency, the bully pulpit of his twitter feed, campaign rallies, you name it, to go after -- to go after opponents, not just democrats and fellow republicans but also private citizens. so i think he was -- he was remarking overall about that. >> you know, that is going to be the legacy of this time, rev.

and if you look at all of the examples of people he goes after, he has used his justice department, he tried to sue john bolton for writing a book. charlie savage reported they tried to go after omarosa for writing a book and he's attacked all three of us on twitter and people are still standing. i mean what explains the cowardice of the republican man, rev, that they are the only people that can't survive a mean tweet? >> well you can't bring cowardice out of people that are not cowardly. and what we began to see is that a lot of republican leaders must have been cowards all along and all they needed was a bullying to come out and expose it and that is what donald trump has done. what i think a lot of us are missing is that even in these last antics for the last couple of days and today where he's meeting with michigan state

officials, he's not de crying war against biden, he's declaring war against all of us. he's undermining the very bases of having voting count. we spend all year trying to get record numbers of people to vote, to come out and vote. those of us in the civil rights community telling people our pain with georgia floyd and vote about breonna taylor and he's sitting in the white house and telling people those votes don't matter. we could get sla-- state legislators to change that and this is a threat to democracy itself. as long as we have joe biden against donald trump, it is much deeper than that. and i think that is what president obama was addressing. that the republican leadership ought to be ashamed of themselves to be silent when this has gone beyond the

politics of november into really the very fabric of whether we're going to stand up as a democracy in this country. >> now, i agree. i hear that too. it is remarkable, jonathan, how low the bar is. everyone assumes that donald trump is a toddler having a tent r -- a tantrum. i thought what president obama said about vice president elect harris was interesting. i want to play it and ask you both about it on the other side. let's watch. >> i think that one thing that we've learned over the last several years is that the challenges that women face as women are profound, just as race is a profound issue in our society. and women of color have to deal with both. the good news is that kamala is accustomed to it. she's been a first before. she's been on the national

stage. and my advice to her is actually really similar to my advice to joe which is is surround yourself with great people. >> they have just a neat dynamic and rapport between them. and as much as everyone sort of knows about the rapport between the former president and his former vice president biden, it is cool to hear him talk about vice president-elect harris. what did you about that, jonathan? >> i asked him that question because i have nobo-- i have kn that they've known each other for a long time whether she was a d.a. in san francisco. and she was a first. she was the first black person to be d.a. in san francisco, the first black person and probably also the first woman to be the attorney general of california. so she's broken through some

similar barriers that president obama had to break through. and the president recognizing the fact that she's got the double -- the double barrier of being a woman and a person of color and what that -- what comes with that when you're a public official and on the public stage. >> rev, we've talked so much about senator harris, about her ability to hold the trump officials feet to the flame. what are your thoughts as she gets ready to assume the office of the vice presidency. >> no one could be better prepared for this. because i think she has the temperament and i think she has the internal strength to be first and understand that. but do a job at the same time. she will not relax on being a symbolic first or a historic first. she will do a job. i've known vice president elect harris since she was d.a. in san francisco and i've known president obama a long time.

worked with him on issues when he was president. i think what people underestimate is not only do they have to deal with those that are not used to someone of their race and in her case race and gender, they have to deal with people of their race and gender that expect them to do more than they can. so it is a double-edged sword and you have to be built a certain kind of way to be able to navigate that. i think barack obama as president navigated it even when it wasn't comfortable, getting fire from both sides and i think senator harris who is now vice president-elect harris has had to deal with that. some of the most painful fire is friendly fire of your own. they've had to deal with both. being first means that on both sides and she's built for that and will make us proud. >> that is a conversation i want to continue to have. thank you, the rev al and jonathan capehart congrats on the interview. thank you both.

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to insinuate that republican and democrat candidates paid to throw off this election, i think, is absolutely outrageous. and i do take offense to that. you know, i have fought for my country, i've worn our nation's uniform to protect the values and freedoms that our nation espouses and to have that accusation just offhandedly thrown out there just to confuse our voters across the united states, i think is absolutely wrong. >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in the east. sorry but we won't be handing out any courage awards to any of the donald trump enablers in the gop who are just now waking up as joni ernst was there to the fact that he's a danger to ore

democracy. but a useful measure of how hopeless and damaging and underfounded the president's campaign against the vote really is. and it is almost comedic to ask it this way but go along with me. so just how bad is it? it is so bad that tucker carlson isn't buying. carlson last night calling b.s. on trump's lawyer sydney powell for rerefusing to provide any evidence. we invited sydney powell on the show. we would have given her the whole hour but she never sent us any evidence despite a lot of requests, polite questions, not a page. when we kept pressing she got angry and told us to stop contacting her. she never demonstrated that a single vote was moved illegitimately by software from one candidate to another. not one. when you've lost tucker carlson -- senator mitt romney weighing in. and while we've seen him criticize the president before, this time he gave a particularly

sharp rebuke of trump's actions, writing, having fail to make a plausible case of widespread fraud or conspiracy before any court of law, the president has now resorted to overt pressure on state and local officials to sub vert the will of the people and over turn the election. it is difficult to imagine a worse, more undemocratic action by a sitting american president. and our friends aft the lincoln project go even further calling on republicans to act like americans. >> most republican leaders are refusing to accept the outcome of the democratic process. it's shameful, cowardly. and unamerican. across the globe our enemies attack america by saying we really aren't a democracy. now republicans are acting like russia, iran, north korea, china. are these republicans not americans? if a president wasn't elected legally, then no one was elected legally.

call your republican officials and tell them to start acting like americans and support democracy. question in 2020 was america or trump. america won. it is time for republicans to put america first. >> the american president and his enablers is unamerican is where we start with our favorite reporters and friends. jake sherman from politico and a msnbc contributor is here, also joining us michael steele from the lincoln project and ol yif aa troy is back an adviser on homeland security security and counter-terrorism policy. she now works with the anti-trump group republican political alliancin teg rid and reform. michael steele, that lincoln project ad was devastating and brutal and comes down just on the side of accurate and fair. talk about the state of affairs in the fact that we could put in a short read how many

republicans are saying out loud what mitt romney did. >> yeah, it is time to account. the accounting has begun. and i think that is what the lincoln project wanted to make very, very clear. we're going through a transition of power, in which the incumbent office holder and his political party are not just dragging their feet but taking direct action to overturn a duly elected, you know, president. and so the reality is let's call it out for what it is. you know, joni ernst and others, trying to do the back door sort of kind of like oh, okay, yeah, i get it now. we're all on the same side. yeah, we're fighting for democracy. i'm sorry, we've been doing that for the last three and a half, four years. where were you? where were you in the middle of all of the hearings in the public testimonies? where were you when donald trump was putting kids in cages? where were you when he was

calling my heritage a place. and where were you. and to think that now you see the writing on the wall, that the american people 78, almost 80 miami 80 million of us have spoken, you go i was with us all along. lincoln project wants to make sure that everyone knows never forget where people stood when america needed leadership and they refused to lead. >> this is the issue, the central issue that keeps me up at night. so i'm going to stay with you michael steele and let's go ahead and name names. these are the republican senators acknowledging joe biden's win and let me just put that differently, these are the seven people who have acknowledged the reality that dozen of foreign leaders have. mitt romney, susan collins, losa murkowski, pat toomey, ben sasse, marco rubio, kevin cramer gets an asterisk because he said it is very likely.

mike rounds, john cornyn and lamar alexander. and i could name on one hand the former officials who have used their platforms to say that the election is over and joe biden has won and that includes john bolton, chris christie, am i for getting anybody? why could we counts on two hands the number republicans who still believe in the central tenant of our democracy, free and fair elections. >> it just, it is just sad. i don't know, i was talking with someone today and i said i just can't account for them any more. i can't explain it. i'm not going to try. they have to account to the american people. they have to account to their constituents if they even care. the reality of it is the rest of us have to move on. we have to pick up the pieces from this administration and heal the nation from covid. we have to help our economy recover and we have to deal with a lot of the sticky issues that

still exist out there around race as we try to educate our kids, raise our families, et cetera. we don't have time or energy, nicolle, to waste on anything related to donald trump any more. we should be done with that. and i just can't -- i'm not going to try to address or answer for a grown men and women who know what their public duty and responsibility is. i don't have to explain it to them. you don't have to explain it to them. they took a freaking code oath of office for heaven sake. they know first and foremost the constitution, last i checked, donald trump's name is nowhere mentioned in the united states constitution. so i don't get the fealty, i don't get the sycophantic following of this man who is not a conservative, who is not a republican. so they're the ones that need to come to grips with their actions and lack of actions. again, i go back to the point. where were you when american

needed leaders? >> yeah, they were, they were busy. jake sherman, you've have some incredible reporting on this sort of slow moving train wreck that is the rudy giuliani can we call it legal defense, political defense, propaganda machine. he did that event at the rnc which is steps away from the capitol. is anyone privately uncomfortable with how far fetched the claims are becoming. it went from recounts to recounts affirmed biden's win and then fraud and you have chris krebs and other u.s. officials who olivia used to work with saying this is the most secure election in american history and donald trump fired them. do any of them stand by claims being made by rudy giuliani and sydney powell. >> the most you'll get, nicolle,

is present some evidence. you're in court across the country or at least you have been. present the evidence. i mean we keep asking people the central question, nicolle, that we keep asking people is what will it take for you to acknowledge the fact that joe biden has won this election? right. like, what do you want to happen? do you want fireworks across the sky? it is evident to most thinking independent-minded, free-thinking human beings that joe biden won the election and lindsey graham the other day said well donald trump needs to concede. these court cases need to be locked up or the states have to certify. one of those things needs to happen. i do think, and maybe i am naive here, i don't -- i do think that after the thanksgiving break republicans are going to have to come to terms with this

publicly. georgia certified today. so we're beginning to see this process come to fruition. but i mean, nicolle, he made this point at top and it is so right. if there is some sort of large scale fraud and we asked this to kevin mccarthy this week, then aren't all of your elections in doubt. i mean maybe you didn't win these seats that you said that you won. that you evidently did win. you did -- republicans won seats in the house. aren't all of those at question? if pennsylvania is a mess and republicans still have a couple of seats in pennsylvania, shouldn't they be examined. so listen, the big danger, let's put this aside and look forward, nicolle. we're about to enter the most complicated legislative environment in recent memory with the joe biden in the white house, mitch mcconnell controlling the senate and a democratic house of representatives. and i think the reality that you and i are going to talk a lot about over the next year is that donald trump is going to be saying things from the side lines all of the time, that is

going to impact the governing of this country because all of the senate republicans in 2022 and 2024 candidates want to keep him happy. so i just think that i respect michael and i think the world of him but i just think that he -- that republicans are not going to stop thinking about donald trump. i just think that is farfetched, michael. and i think -- >> no, no, could i just respond real quick. i absolutely agree with you. >> please. >> donald trump is going to -- donald trump is going to be a former president with a twitter account. and everyone who thinks they're going to be the man or the woman in 2024 need to think twice. because the reality of it is that won't happen until donald trump decides it happens and the way it happens particularly as he positions his son andez positioned his maybe someone that he happened to like at that moment. all of that is going to come into play. what i'm saying is, that is a republican party problem. the country can't spend its

days, hours, weeks, months, years, worrying about a problem that the problem -- that the party doesn't want to solve for itself. because if you really value the country, sacrifice your seat and tell this man to shut up and stand down. all right. what are you afraid of? that is not my problem as a citizen. that is your problem as a republican partisan who is shelling for a guy who in a heartbeat won't give a rat's behind about you if it means anything that could hurt him. so that's not our problem as a country right now. we have a newly elected president. country needs to move forward with him and his vice president so that we could begin to deal with the very important and complicates issues that you just laid out on health care, the environment, the economy. those things aren't going to stop because donald trump is tweeting. that is all i'm saying.

>> yeah. >> olivia, let me bring you into the conversation. he'll be a former president with a tweet feed and possibly a ankle bracelet. a former trump surrogate said last night that he's raising money for a legal defense fund because he knows he's face legal bills for the irs audit and the new york manhattan criminal case and the new york state civil cases. what do you make of a vice president who is going along with the grift, as this former trump visor described it, with an entire republican party that i think that the truth lies between what michael and jake is saying, that the party and the weakest elements of it will, of course, still be afraid of the bully. i don't know that the next nominee in the party is someone who sits and stands and gives a paw whenever trump asks for one. i'm not positive that is what is

next. but it could be. but what do you make of the fact that the whole government has now been turned over to a big trump scam? >> i think this is a really sad and low point for our country. and as far as vice president pence goes, i'm just really disappointed. because a person that i really got to know for several years, working for him, i guess he has shown his true colors now. and i know that mike pence is looking at 2024 closely. i think he expected to be hopefully in a strong position to be if the running for it. for the presidency. but the truth is this is a trump show. it has always been about the trump show and it has been about the trump family and anybody, any republican who is fooling themselves thinking they're going to make a run of it in 2024 without some sort of trump

person on the ticket is just checked out in reality. because this is playing out the way exactly the trumps want it to. and they're going to do everything in their power to undermine everyone else around them. and so the sooner republicans come to terms with this reality of what is really happening here and stop being scared, because all of this, michael steele is right, it is just fear. it is pathetic. i gave up an entire career to speak out against this man. all of these people have a million more times the funds, the career and the connections than i ever did. and it is pathetic and disheartening to watch these grown men and women who have significantly served our country behave in such a manner that is so detrimental to our democracy. >> i mean you just put into words exactly whey feel. i want to ask you something from former dhs secretary because of all of us have you have the most expertise in this area. he's more worried now than he was about the transition in '01

because -- i'll read the quote. there apeers to be a deliberate effort to slow walk the transition and not begin the process of clearing people or giving presidential briefings and donald trump is now firing many of the senior experienced security officials in his own government which means they will be lowering our defenses at the moment that our adversaries whether they be nation states or terrorists, roiecognize there ia nullver ability. so this is playing with the safety and security of the american people. do you share former secretary chertoff's security concerns? >> absolutely. this is detrimental to our national security apparatus. it is detrimental to the pandemic response which is basically on pause right now by this administration. that held that briefing yesterday when they were not actually sharing the information, what the income team and we're supposed to be united against this virus and unitedadverse

aries and you have a group that do not care about the overall direction of our country and the direction that we're going in. >> jake sherman, are there any republicans i keep thinking of rob portman, he was around for 9/11, are there any republicans who have any worries about threats from terrorists as mike chertoff is talking about it or domestic threats an the impact the 9/11 commission found that the delayed or shortened transition in 2000 was a factor among many in the attacks of 9/11 or with there any national security republicans left in the u.s. senate? >> there are. and you showed some of them at the front end, i guess marco rubio and mitt romney, i would consider one and what i keep hearing and there are a bunch. i mean john cornyn is one as well. lamar alexander and pat toomey are not running again so we see a pattern here. but i will say this. the most -- the excuse i hear

the most or the reason i hear the most is joe biden has been in government. he knows what he's doing. he doesn't need as much time is bai basically the message i keep hearing. i'm in the capitol now, but in the halls of the senate and the house, and i just i imagine and i again might be giving these people too much credit that when we get back from the thanksgiving break the dam will break and people will start pressuring. but listen, here is the other thing that i think is important to remember. why century the biden campaign doing more here. why don't they sue or take it a more aggressive stance against the gsa. i lot of democrats are asking that question. why isn't there a more aggressive stance by the biden campaign. there is only one person who could unlock this and it is donald trump and the white house from what they say and i think a lot of democrats want to say biden say looking i'm taking control of in government in about a month and a half, i need this information and you need to

give it to me, and if you don't, i'm going to take action. >> michael steele, i would just -- joe biden addressed that question yesterday. our own kristen welker asked and his answer was litigation would take too long. i want to give you a last word though on that asemitiry. donald trump is denying the result and the republicans are afraid of a mean tweet, which i'm sure all four of us have been tweeted at by donald trump and we're still here but jake is reporting a sentiment that he's picked up on the hill. several years doesn't joe biden do more. if this remains the posture of the country, democrats don't have to win, they have to win in landslides, not just in landslides they have to dance do a transition on the fly with donations from their base because donald trump won't release. whether will it be the republicans job to put the country ahead of their pathetic and craven political interests? >> and that is kind of where i was going. i love jake's stuff and i read

it and follow his -- an insightful reporter and he's spart about his sources and i get that part of. it but it goes back to the point you just made, why is the onus on the rest of us to explain why we're trying to do normal. why we're trying to, i don't know, uphold the constitution. and to follow the norms of a transition, why are we having to explain that. and the folks who are, as the president told us he would do, de constructing the administration state, they don't have to explain themselves. >> bannon -- yeah. all right. i'm sure -- >> so we have to sue to get them to do their job? >> yeah. look, it is the endless -- it is the endless repeat song of the trump administration. he's such a defier of norms we should go and adapt ourselves to

him. but i'm so grateful to have all of your insights and your reporting. all of your experience. thank you so much for starting us off. olivia is sticking around. whether we come back. as donald trump fights to overturn an election he clearly lost, the coronavirus continues to spread unchecked throughout this country. the raging pandemic and the leadersh leadership vacuum at the top is next for us. plus trump's desire to cling to power might have to do what w what awaits him after january 20th. we have two investigations into trump's tax write-offs of millions of dollars in consulting fees some of which were paid to his daughter ivanka. and on the day georgia officials certify the election for joe biden, there are ethical questions facing republicans in the all important senate runoff elections there and they will decide control of the senate. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. anywhere. ♪

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i know the holidays are coming up and that is going to be tough for some people. but it is a small sacrifice to make in order to prevent spread and this is another instance of where you're not assuming the risk for you, necessarily and your family but the risk for everyone else who comes into contact for the five to ten days after you have a family gathering. >> warnings and pleas from the front lines ahead of the thanksgiving holiday as the pandemic rages and only appears to be getting worse. cases still increasing in all 50 states and spiking in 13.

the united states reported more than 189,000 new cases just yesterday. and, yes, it is a new single day record for us. so far more than 11.9 million americans have contracted the virus and tragically more than 254,000 souls have been lost. right now a record of more than 80,000 people have hospitalized and more than 15,000 are currently in icu's across the country. joining us now is dr. irwin red letter and the founding director of columbia university center for disaster preparedness. o olivia troy is with us. give us a sense of where we're heading on this current path? >> hi, nicolle. so really the trajectory is out of control and heading straight up. many of us were predicting we'll

see 200,000 cases a day before thanksgiving. the hospitalization rates are important because these reflect the data that suggest people are getting quite sick. having to be admitted to the hospital. so the immediate prospects are not good which is why we're particularly worried about making sure people get the message about how we could safely manage to get through the holiday season right now. but this is not going to be a good winter by any stretch of the imagination, nicolle. >> how do you communicate with a country that has tended to view through a partisan lens some of the simple and noninvasive measures like mask wearing and social distancing and not being indoors and how do you inject into that the long-term hope of a vaccine on the horizon? >> yeah, good question, nicolle. so i don't think of us in public health would have imagined a

year ago that even with donald trump at the helm that this level of incompetency and toxic messages that we've seen with donald trump over these last eight or nine months would have actually been possible under any president's leadership. but here you have it. a president who is firmly opposed to science and evidence and developing policies to deal with this very deadly disease who continues to this very day and there is no sign of him stopping, even after he leaves, i'm assuming he'll leave, when he leaves the white house. this toxic messages is going to be appearing throughout the rest of this next year or two because donald trump will not give up in promotion of horrible, erroneous, anti-factual, anti-science messages. this is poisoned the atmosphere to the point there is a big job here for the new president and vice president and their administration to turn around narratives that the president

has deliberately created that are completely erroneous and very, very dangerous. so it is not so much -- it is the science of course, but it is also how this is articulated to people that is going to make a lot of difference f, as far as vaccine, it is good news. but as dr. patel said earlier in on your show, this is not just about the vaccine, it is about vaccinations and the task of getting everybody vaccinated is an onerous and huge chore for us going forward. >> olivia, you've been in the room for coronavirus task force meetings under from thpresident. i'm not asking to you project what think of the health people would think or say in terms of putting words in their mouth but in terms of how subverted the expertise is and i'm thinking of dr. fauci dealing with death threats and speaking gently and

softly to donald trump as not to offend him, what will the difference be of the meetings under a president biden and vice president harris who believe in the science and want to raise up the scientists and experts? >> it will be, it would be amazing, nicolle. i could tell there is so much work being done behind the scenes and so many things that we tried to push forward that would have likely prevented some of the situation that we are facing today as we go into this winter. it certainly shouldn't have been this way. and i can't imagine how incredible it will be to have a leader sitting at the head of the table and a president in office that will actually listen to these recommendations, who will actually care, who will have an ounce of compassion on what is happening across the country and not just be about themselves. it will change the response.

it will -- i just wish that we would have had that back in january, early on, the trajectory on this pandemic response would have been completely different. >> yeah, i mean i keep thinking of all of the reporting about deborah birx having to make charts that wouldn't hurt donald trump's feeling and dr. fauci getting trolled by donald trump on tv. just the absence of all of that drama and wasting of energy and time will be a remarkable change. i'm excited to watch it with you, olivia and doctor, thank you both for spending time with us. we're always grateful. when we come back. new reporting on two fraud investigations into donald trump his finances. we'll find out what it could mean for the soon to be ex president. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. clearer skin. man 2 vo: proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis... woman 2 vo: ...with humira. woman 3 vo: humira targets and blocks

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so donald trump is facing two investigations into his tax returns in his former home state of new york. when he leaves the white house this january, manhattan district attorney cy vance and letitia james offices have opened two separate problems. one is criminal and one is civil into trump and his businesses. new york times is reporting that investigators have expanded the investigations and taking a closer look at his tax write yowriteoffs on consulting fees which of some were paid to ivanka. both offices have issued

subpoenas to the trup organization in recent weeks for records related to the fees. the times reported there is no indication that ivanka trump is a focus of either inquiry and both ivanka and the trump organization say it is politically motivated. to join our conversation, neal katyal, and lucky for us an msnbc contributor. hi there. >> hey. how are you? >> tell us about these investigations and i have to tell you, i spoke to a trump ally last night that saw as a poetive for donald trump's refusing to concede and going along with what he thought trump would see as some of the rudy's just madness with the hair dye leaking down his face and trump hates a bad tv performance ands with one of the nicest things you could say about rudy yesterday. it was a bad tv performance. it is a grift that he's fundraising for his legal

defense and that he'll face audits and lawsuits and investigations into his businesses and his finances for the rest of his life. is that accurate, do you think? >> yes. i'm sure. and like so much else, that trump does, it is counter-productive. so you have that state and federal investigations and at the federal level has been protected so far by a get-out-of-jail-free card as a sitting president, the justice department said he can't be indicted and even the mueller report issues found ten different instances of federal crimes and they said we can't indict a sitting president. but that expires in exactly 60 days so you have a federal investigation and then as you were saying the state investigation by cy vance and trump tried to block that investigation saying he was a sitting president, lost that unanimously in the supreme court so that is moving forward. so now you've got trump trying to do all of this ridiculousness around the election. i did think with an idea to raise his war chest to defend

himself. but it perversely makes it really hard for a future biden attorney general or for a new york prosecutor to look the other way because even if trump had hoped to avoid criminal prosecution, his post election behavior basically guarantees it. you have a guy who is right now literally committing if not crimes, pretty darn close even when he's being forced out of the door in terms of conspiring with these michigan canvassers or state legislators. it is a federal and a state crime to try to take someone's right to vote away and that is what trump is doing. he's trying to perpetrate the largest act of disenfranchisement in our lifetime. hundreds of thousands of votes he's trying to throw out. that is if he's skpconspiring to it, it is a crime. >> let me pull aside the federal crimes and focus on that. because it sounds like what you're saying, i mean, and i also want to dispel this notion that joe biden has to decide

whether or not to prosecute donald trump. that is a continuation of the way trump has handled prosecutions. isn't it the fact that whom ever joe biden selects as an attorney general will -- i mean, if the crimes were committed, they'll be investigated and prosecuted, full stop. joe biden won't have anything to do with it. aren't we looking at the question of what federal criminal exposure donald trump has in the wrong way? >> so 100% i agree with you. joe biden has always respected the justice department and he knows exactly how it operates and it doesn't operate with the person in the white house telling the justice department what to do. so i think what he's going to do is he's going to appoint a great attorney general and she or he will make that determination, what i'm saying is that i think it is really hard to look the other way. even if you want to. even if you want to say the country should move on or something, it is hard to give a hardened criminal a pass and that is how trump is behaving. >> so let's stay with that. you know we never look at the

other way here. let's look at his exposure. gist from reading the newspaper, it is clear to me that he was named as individual number one in a criminal investigation that result the in michael cohen going to jail. do you think there are pieces of investigations that may have encompassed him that have been kept quiet because of bill barr and the doj policy you've talked about. >> absolutely. i think that is almost certainly what has happened. all of the investigations somehow magically disappeared once bill barr came into office. however the statute of limitations is such that they could be investigated and what the "new york times" report is saying is that, for example, trump has been paying his daughter ivanka hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars in consulting fees and that allows him to expense those and avoid essentially gift tax or inheritance taxes on that. so that may be one thing that is going on. another is, which has been reported by many outlets, he

deducted the $130,000 in payments to stormy daniels as a business expense. now, you know, that -- >> right. >> -- but when you think about all of the people around the country who in an agonized way, expensed from french fries that i for my client because i ate three of them, people take this stuff seriously and fairly with the irs and then this guy who is doing the opposite. again very hard to look the other way, particularly when we are talking about the person sworn to take an oath to uphold the constitution and laws not to spit on them. >> and we know he's very presidential pardon curious, is that a good way to put it. very interested in attracted to his own power, absolute power to pardon. do you think he finds a way to pardon himself and his family before he leaves office, neal? >> oh, sure. he's going to try and do all of those things. i don't doubt it. it is certainly part of his

mod modus on randy to do it and the justice department has taken the view that you can't pardon yourself if you're a president. and of course pardons don't work for states and i think if you're ivanka right now, you've got to worry that if trump somehow gets off on these charges whether a pardon or something else and doesn't have any state charges, the prosecutors are going after someone and here is looking at you, kid. >> neal katyal, it is always great to spend time with you and have your help in making sense of all of this. thank you so much for spending time with us today. when we come back, the battle for control of the senate comes down to georgia. and today there are new questions about how republican senator david perdue profited from a navy contractor stock as he oversaw the naval fleet. that story is ahead. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. a. who is usaa made for? it's made for this guy a veteran who honorably served

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just this hour some welcome news for president-elect joe biden out of georgia. governor brian kemp announced he will formalize the election certification there following a full hand count audit, more on that in a minute. but we're also following new ethics questions surrounding the republicans. kelly loefler faces a federal investigation for campaigning in a federal building and then there senator purdue alleging that he made a bulk buy of stocks in a navy contractor just prior to become chairman of the senate armed service subcommittee overseeing the navy fleet. let's bring into our conversation priscilla thompson life in georgia and basil smikle. pre press illa, this is not just for the future of the senate but for one of the future chapters in

the republican war with republican statewide officials trying to stand by the vote in their state. the officials seem to have certified the vote of state after recounting it. is that it. is this over now in georgia in terms of the presidential vote for joe biden? >> reporter: nicolle, not quite over just yet. we does hear brian kemp koum out a little while and he said that he will certify the results and emphasized that it is unacceptable that there were ballots found through the hand audit and would like to see these investigations play out. but the other thimg that we're now waiting on is to see whether or not the trump campaign is going to request another recount. they still have the option to do that because they are within that .5% margin and they have would have to do that by the end of the day on tuesday. and all of this is happening on

the back drop of a senate race that is under way. as you menged, senator loeffler and perdue have sent letters to ethics committee calling for investigation into the claims that you mentioned. nicolle. >> bazil, just weigh in on -- this seems like it could cut both way, if the trump campaign wants to spend their money counting and recounting until the sun comes up, it is not going to change the result in the state but it may, it could backfire on republicans if the voter there feel threatened. sometimes they react by coming out in force to try to account for that. what -- how do you see this sort of complicated stakes in georgia in light of the fact there are two runoffs there. >> right. what is interesting about the fact that the president's trying to call into question all of these results, you have to remember you're also calling

into question and impugning the valid of the republicans of republicans who were on the ballot also. so there has to be some kind of balance here from the side of the republicans saying, look, i get that you're upset about you loss, but you can't do this to the party and i think that's why you're seeing more and more republican leaders sort of standing up in individual states saying that, you know, look, we may not like our results and i think the secretary of state of georgia said exactly that. trump supporter, i may have wanted a different outcome but i have to certify these results because the numbers just don't lie. so i think the trump campaign is running out of options, but it is compa exacerbati exacerbating his party. i talked to the co-founder of black voters matter down there in georgia and he was saying this is not really a persuasion run off, it's really just about turnout but i tell you, these on

going scandals and conversations with the two republicans in the race and trump meeting with local legislators in michigan and reports that he wants to do that with pennsylvania legislators to consistently put his hand on the scale, i can't believe it puts republicans at the local level at all. >> there is reporting in the washington post this week that the two republicans were on a phone call with carl rove and other donors trying to figure out how to navigate and really juggle what you just articulated, not alienating people in the state who don't want to think their votes don't count. how do you think that plays out? you have democrats on such high alert about the obstruction republican senators specifically are playing to joe biden's transition. he can't get in there and see hhs' plan for distributing a vaccine because republican senators won't demand that

donald trump concede the result of a very clear and very decisibesidd decisive election. is there a reaction that would help democrats in the state? >> sure, everything from the death of ruth bader ginsburg and everything we know about what it means for the senate, that the democrats can have the senate, yes. democrats are aware and democrats turned it blue tested from the top of the ballot down. so there is an alertness about democrats that there is a lot more at stake that's just sending folks to d.c. >> i think alertness is my new preferred word other than energize. people are always energized but i think alertness is the right way to describe georgia because it was an exhausting presidential. trump is still carrying on being trump. that's a great way to look at

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber sorts right now. i want to welcome everyone to "the beat." i'm ari melber. this weekends with a fact that fits perfectly in the bizarre 2020 era. donald trump has now quarantined more strictly in response to losing the election than in response to getting covid. that's actually a measurable comparison because while the president continues, had continued to hold those meetings and gatherings and public events in those memorable days after he contracted covid, he has now, according to the count, spent the past 13 days in self-isolation. very little work. no