we're way up in michigan. i won fa by a lot. likewise in georgia, i won by a lot. a lot. the campaign, i won, by the way, but you'll find that out. >> good morning and welcome to

"am joy." i'm jason johnson. we're 60 days from inauguration day and president trump will not admit he's lost the election. straight up trying to overturn the will of the voters. on friday the president invited the republican leaders of the legislature to the white house prhouse. he appears to have been very successful. the lawyers issued a statement afterward saying, quote, we have not yet been made aware of any information that would change the outcome of the election. we will follow the law and the normal process regarding michigan's electors. the state is expected to certify the election results on monday. trump and his legal team have also been trying to change results in pennsylvania, wisconsin, and georgia, often with racist overtones as trump targets cities with surprisingly large african-american populations, but so far team

trump has uncovered zero evidence of wide voter fraud. surprise, surprise. joining me now, david frum and thank you all for being here. we're going to start with representative iosh. i have to call out the wonderful week you got. you got attacked by the alt-right. what has happened to you since you've had the audacity to fight for american democracy. >> thank you for having me. i've been the center of a misinformation campaign, and as a result, i've had numerous death threats sent to myself, my family, and a lot of folks have

paid visits, sent deliveries and the like and it's been hard. the fact is i was doing my job in advocating for my community to make sure voices were heard and it's unfortunate it's led to a lot of threats and potential violence. >> unfortunately we've seen a lot of that from president trump attacking individuals and elected officials and anyone else who says something he doesn't want to hear. i want go go forward with that with dr. grier. you have this attack on detroit. you have this attack on other major african-american areas. dr. grier, i was under the impression president trump was one of the least racist americans what do you think is going on. >> right because all non-racists

talk about how non-racist they are. i think it's interesting because in wisconsin donald trump only wants to target specific counties, surprise, surprise, with majority large black populations. similarly in michigan he wanted to target wayne county, which is detroit, which is again not just a democratic population but a black population. this is clear. donald trump has lost the election. he is the projected loser and he knows that, and he knows that on january 20th he'll be out of a job and facing life as a civilian with tish james. i think what's really dangerous besides trying to incite violence but also the silence of republican leaders who need to shut this down. republican leaders in michigan said, well, we met with the president and we didn't really

come to the conclusion he wanted us to. but republican leaders in wisconsin, georgia, pennsylvania need to just nip it in the bud and say, plmr. president, we respect you, 71 million love you, but you didn't make the cut. >> david frum, i want to ask you this. you did a fantastic twitter feed i encourage everybody to take a look at. you talk about what we're experiencing with donald trump. it wouldn't happen in any other wealthy democracies. you say, hey, look, you ain't got to go home, but you've got to get out of here. what would need to change in america so we don't experience something like this again. what other laws are in place, in germany, france, and the uk, that keep us from going into these frustrating transitions? >> partly because they're

parliamentary democracies. once you lose the majority, that's it. you're not the leader anymore. but the united states has a whole series of assumptions, habits, believes that donald trump has challenged and we discover they're not written down anywhere. i think there are a series of items. i wrote an article in "the atlantic" that make subpoenas binding. there's no sanction for lying congress. it's unusual for anyone to ever suffer any consequences from that. i think one of the things that will face the new administration is the need for some kind of democratizing agenda. it's going to seem important but not urgent compared to coronavirus and the economy. so i've been recommending there has to be some way outside of politics to step up the study of the things you need to do to make sure the law is binding,

the executive branch has to answer subpoenas, there are meaningful financial disclosures, not laws left over from the 1970s. not going to be non-partisan, but it can't be bipartisan because so many have bought into what the pr has done. >> right. and they would be caught. adam applebaum, you wrote a great article in "the atlantic" that we can't go back to normal. it set us up to deal with what we're dealing with now. i want you to talk a little bit about what joe biden -- this spins off of what david said. what does joe biden have to do transform actively with his power in the government to keep from sliding back? biden can't just go into office and say, hey, we're back in the obama years. he needs to make some changes from the obama years.

what changes do s d s does he h made? >> we need to look at some of the things that have been norms in our sew sault and ask whether it's time to maim them laws instead, but he needs to look at the position of america in the world. i would like to see biden not just renew our alliances in the sense of reciting old mantras about nato and friendships with japan or australia. i won't like him to begin to launch a new democracy agenda in which we talk about how we as a group of nations in the world can fight against encroaching autocracy, can fight against the trends toward liberalism in our own societies. there are things we can learn from one projects we

can do together. we can fight money laundering that transforms and corrupts all of our politics together. we can discuss social media platforms and how they need to change. that's what i would like to see the biden administration do. >> that's actually really key. the lack of regulation we have soefr social media and the amount of disinformation that comes out, it's as much a dangerous weapon as others. >> representative aaiyash, i wat you to talk about this when we come back. >> most republican leaders are refusing the democratic process. if a president wasn't elected legally, then no one was elected legally. the call your republicans to start acting like americans and

support. america won. tomb f it's time for republicans to put america first. >> representative aiyash, you're in a state where you had a bunch of crazy folk tries to attack, kidnap, and murder elected officials. do you think that's going to help republicans show some spine and democracy or are we going to be in the same trap six months from now? >> look. the american experiment only works if we're willing to keep and sustain it. ignoring institutions and not dealing with them is extremely problematic. i tell people i'm not a partisan hack, blue till i die or deep red. are we willing to sustain it, and when the decisions are not what we want, are we willing to

respect and say despite political differences we're still going to recognize and dig nigh phi one another and make sure those very institutions are kept intact? when certain leaders from the republican party are continuing to refuse the results of this election, the voters have decided. we cannot simply try to use the institutions of certifying the election to continue to put in stopgaps, to delay, to delay, to delay, to appease a single individual. america will continue forward, but we have to make sure we're holding those accountable that are trying to stop this experiment. >> so i want to take this to dr. g r greer real quick. we've been let down by the legal system, medical city. you've had a large number of black people in flint be poisoned but never threaten to

kidnap and murder a governor. you have those who don't get their way, they may feel violence is their only answer. >> right. i think this goes back to the heart of something anne spoke about which is that in this country we have a real question. my research touches on it and others, and that's can black people ever be real citizens? i think that's a real question. when joe biden comes into office, jason, he's got to think about undoing four years of damage where a republican party has aided in devaluing various citizens from the muslim community, lgbtq community, the list goes on and on. joe biden needs to think substantively and creatively about creating some sort of

office that looks at the past four years, not just the past 400 but four years at what this president trump has done to systematically devalue the systematics of people of color and marginalized people in this country. >> when will they see us? that's a good question because obviously donald trump never did. thank you david frum, abraham aiyash, christine a greer and anne applebaum. next, what covid can't fix. keep it right here. ep it right e i say, it's me, the couch, i'm calling. pain says you can't. advil says you can. to help you build a flexible wealth plan. you'll have access to tax-smart investing strategies, and with brokerage accounts online trades are commission free. personalized advice. unmatched value. at fidelity, you can have both.

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the u.s. now has more than 12 million cases of covid-19. to put that in perspective, it's basically the size of new york city. as hospitals are facing staffing shortages, nbc's gabe gutierrez following this amazing report last night.

>> reporter: tonight a brutal reality in the fight against covid. one in five u.s. hospitals is facing a staffing shortage. >> you can turn hospitals that aren't hospital areas into hospital areas, but if we don't have the people to take care of the patients, it doesn't matter. >> reporter: since the pandemic began, an army of traveling nurses is rushed in, first to new york city where they were cheered daily, then to other hot spots. >> when i was in new york, people seemed a lot more supportive of health care workers. >> reporter: right now she's in south texas in a covid unit. >> a lot of people say covid is a hoax, that masks don't work, that masks are publicized. frustrating trying to correct people. >> reporter: throughout the country, there are 40,000 to 50,000 traveling nurses taking on assignments, but now during the pant, they're in demand like never before. according to trusted health, the nurses' fees are now twice as

much as pre-covid levels. right now there are thousands of open jobs. >> the supply of nurses are being tapped out. they're on assignment doing the heroic work they've been doing for the now nine months. the front lines are seeing death daily. >> reporter: with north dakota allowing infected by asymptomatic workers to treat covid patients, 60 air force nurses are now headed to that state as backup. >> we're tired. we're physically and emotionally exhausted. we're pretty much at our breaking point. >> reporter: the shortage is not always beds, protective gear, and equipment, it's nursing staff. >> joining us now is a professor, a fellow tar heel and lauri porter of national health care assistance. i want to start with you now.

there's been an actual explosion of people applying to nursing school, people applying to medical school. it's similar to what we saw with people wanting to sign up for the armed forces after 9/11, but it's going to take years for people to get back into the system to deal with the virus. what's being down now to prepare people to get the staff out there to help with these shortages. >> you know, that's a really excellent point, jason. it's heartening to hear soo many people maintain the commitment to wanting to help their fellow citizens, friends, family members by joining the medical profession. what we really need to see right now is that same collective sense of responsibility coming from the general public. if you think about a health care provider who has helped you in the past, who has savinged your life or the life of a family member of yours, think now about what they're facing in order to do their jobs.

as you point out, there are critical shortages, individuals are coming to work who may have symptoms, mild symptoms, but they're encouraged to work because there is no other option. those individuals are working in the presence of knowing what could happen. early on in the pandemic, i have a colleague in cardiology who was so concerned about the risks that she was facing that she and other health care providers weren't going home to their families after shifts. they were staying in separate residences, changing clothes, adhering to all of these best practices because not only are they putting their lives at risk in order to help others, they are also putting their own families' lives at risk, and if the public can't do the same by wearing masks and practicing social distancing, it is very unfair for the burden of these health care workers. >> laurie porter, i want to talk to you because this is the kind

of people that you represent. as we saw in that great package before, look, some place health care workers go and people cheer them, they're treated like heroes. and in other places, they're treated with conceskepticism? how do you deal with that? how can we look after these people when they have to go to these places? >> well, i mean, on the frontline there's no one closer than the folks that are a part of our organization, cnn, certified nursing assistants, that work at the side of nurses across the country in all health care sectors, and what we're hearing is unbelievable in terms of how they're being treated, even in places where they're given discounts, people behind them in the grocery store line will say, why do they deserve a discount? it's harassment at every level

of health care right now, and we 14,000 nursing students who can't graduate because there's no one to provide their clinicals. same with nursing aides. there's no one to support the very front line who's battling this. >> i've pointed this out many times. i've seen what ends up happening when schools go virtual. people can't go in. they can't do their labs or bios and we're losing or delaying a whole generation of medical technicians who should be out there. >> absolutely. >> dr. carnethon, we have to fight disinformation in health care. i want to show you this and get your comments on the way back. what we have is there are actual health care ceos out there spreading disinformation. what on earth are we supposed to

do to battle covid when we have professionals who are supposed to know better who are spreading disinformation through email, facebook, and other areas? >> i think what we need is for everyone to speak up, for health care professionals speak up that it's not true, that once you're infected and recovered from covid, you no longer need to wear a mask. we need people to point out that it's not true you can no longer transmit covid to someone else if you've already had the infection. all of this is untrue. what i see is an opportunity for student delayed in their training and doing their clinicals, what they can do right now is contribute to the public health efforts that we have out there. get the message out about individuals taking responsibility to protect themselves and their families, communicate, do their best to try to interpret the science in a way that appeals to people, in a way they that can understand

because we have to -- it can't be one person. it can't be the opportunity you're giving me to speak to millions of people. i can't be the ohm person fighting these untruths. everybody plays a role. this is what public health is about. let's start new rumors that it's critically important that if you care about people that you wear a mask. it's critically important that you make compromises to your own personal freedoms in the same way that health care professionals are compromising and restricting their own personal freedoms right now. it's only by doing that that we can come out on the other side of this intact. >> dr. carnethon, if somebody in your profession, a doctor is caught spreading disinformation, do you think there should be professional sanctions, should be brought up against the board, lose their license if they're caught in spreading this disinformation during a pa

pandemic? >> that's an interesting kwechlt it could stop people, have them make a decision not to make statements in the same wayty psychological field does not make psychological diagnoses of public figures and they certainly cannot do that. by the same token, health care professionals should be stopped when they're making statements that are clearly in opposition to the data that we have today. we certainly think the challenge because the data are evolving rapidly are understanding of this pandemic. but to make patently false statements compromises the health of even. >> lori porter, really quickly, what's the one thing health care workers want to tell us. what do they keep telling you they wish the public was aware of. >> who they are, who the nursing assistant is on the frontline up in the face of patients every day and in the nursing home setting where we've seen the

largest loss of life, and until we start there, i mean, hospitals are stressed, no doubt, but nursing homes cannot be forgotten in this, nor can all of the health care professionals and those working in health care today. this is a crisis beyond any of the three of us have seen in our lifetime, and america will fail if we do not find resources to strengthen and bring people in. as you mentioned earlier with the online learning, it's going to be essential to provide enough cnas to even begin to address this. >> america will fail if we do not support our health care workers. thank sow so very much dr. mercedes carnethon and lori porter. oh, boy. the nightmare millions of americans face heading into the holiday season.

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today marks 60 days until the presidential inauguration. the health care workers are facing the worst of the pandemic without the help of the government. more "am joy" after the break. r.

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what i would do is pass the h.e.r.o.e.s. act. it has the capacity to take care of each of those things. the idea ta the president is still playing golf and not doing anything about it is beyond my comprehension, and the republicans, we're told -- i don't know if it's true -- but there are 22 republicans that won't vote for anything. at least a dozen ought to have the courage to stand up and save lives and jobs now. we should be doing it now. >> president-elect joe biden -- isn't that nice to say? president-elect joe biden is urging immediate reaction on the next round of covid economic relief, but mitch mcconnell has sent the gop home, leaving millions in limbo including restaurant industry. the house has already passed a bill which includes billions for independent restaurants and small firms, by awe cording to "the new york times," it

includes big chains that are not strapped for money. joining me now -- i want to get to tim ryan. all too often people don't realize the impact they have. there's a place called vernon's cafe, the banana oil, the hot peps. i used to have these before. i used to live in the area. how does the house bill help vernon's, a family restaurant that's only in two locations? >> i went up in polls because i got you to say hot peps on national tv, so i appreciate that. vernon's, leos, giuseppes, we've

got these great local restaurants, but they're at the back of the line because all of the ppp money got eaten up by the big dogs, and so now what the restaurant bill does, which is included in the latest version, if you have a million and a half dollars less from the revenue from last year, you can go to the front of the line for a couple of weeks and the rest can follow after. from the very beginning, it's the smaller family restaurants that feed us, pay for the wait tress waiters, waitresses, bartenders, and they're left out. that's what mitch mcconnell's version will do. it will leave them all out. again, this is about getting to the working-class people and they're small business owners, and that's what this bill does. we hope we can get it moving once joe biden gets in office.

>> there's a great piece about the economic impact on restaurant workers. it's not just the kuwaiters and waitresses. it's the cooks, staffers, sometimes even the farmers. what has the pandemic done to the restaurant industry and how bleak is it for people ever possibly getting these jobs back? >> thank you for having me. yes. you know, what we've heard especially in philadelphia, we've heard so restauranteurs say it's as bleak as slipping away. we've had new restrictions not only in philadelphia but across the country in places like chicago, michigan, which is changing indoor dining, eliminating indoor dining, and for some restaurant teareurrest li eliminating them from being able

to stay open in the winter. it's problematic. these people are looking for unemployment once again. these are folks laid off from march until june and came back once outdoor dining was allowed, but it really changes the entire system for all of the people who bring you food it. is, as you said, the dishwashers, the busers, and eu trying to stay open, but it's been making it hard for them. >> mel, you have a fantastic restaurant in new york, melba's restaurant. i've enjoyed it. here in new york city there was an announcement this week restaurants can't stay open past 10:00 and there have been

openings and closings. how do people go forward? what do you think will happen to the new york dining scene. >> i can tell you as the president of the new york city hospitality alliance, 88% of restaurants have not been able to pay rent. you know, we have ongoing bills, ficted costs we have to be able to pay. however, because we do not have the patrons coming into the restaurant, new york right now is cold, it's wet on certain days. outdoor dining is not an option. the restaurant industry is the second largest private employer in this country. you know, it's bigger than the airlines. it's bigger than the. >> movie industry.

>> food lines. there needs to be the restaurant act. it has to be passed. it's not just a restaurant that closes down. it's our entire industry. it's the farmers, lay workers, truck drivers. how are staff going to feed their families? you're looking at the unemployment rate going up. you're looking at people dealing with mental health issues. we have over 50 million people with 17 million of them being children that are at risk of experiencing food insecurities. we're dying a slow death. this is not the america that we all know and that we all love. >> congressman ryan, i want to bring this also to that local leve level. when restaurants close, it's not just the people who lose their jobs or the little league teams who get supported, but those

restaurants are responsible for filling food banks that people often need this time of year. >> right. >> can you talk about that when it comes to food insecurity when it comes to mahoning valley in ohio? >> what you saw last week in texas with all the cars, same thing was happening in youngstown a couple weeks ago, mahoning county, which is young stoun, they fed 4,000 families a couple of weeks ago. that's unheard of that we have that need, and the cars pulling up were, you know, middle-class cars, people who, you know, but for the pandemic and the way this has been handled, they had decent jobs. they weren't great jobs, but they were able to feed their family and pay the bills. so this is hitting everybody in the community. it's devastating. i appreciate your other guest bringing up the mental health issues because that is -- we

thought it was going to be, you know -- come in six months. it's here now. the stress level, the anxiety. i get more texts about people saying, look, i'm going to have a nervous breakdown. we had hundreds of people say they owed hundreds in backpay, how am i going to get christmas gifts? this is the most anti-business, anti-small business approach i've ever seen in my almost 20 years in congress, to just cut these small businesses loose and pay them lip service over all of these years. and mnuchin is getting rid of some emergency and monetary loan programs for small businesses. this is throughout the administration, and the president is playing golf. give me a break. you're pro-business? the democrats are the ones trying to resuscitate. one more point. i remember discussing with

people over the affordable care act and i would have people grab me and say, you can't do this, you can't do that. i'll never forget a couple of the waitresses pull med aside, a little younger, they said, honey, you'd better pass this, we need that health care, and those are the people that are getting cut here, those workers in the small businesses, and it's shameful. >> and there is something that can be done. thank you so much, senator tim ryan. some of these governors need to get involved. thank you congressman tim ryan, melba, and jamila robinson. more after the break. amila robin more after the break tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean?

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whatever you have calculated into your life as acceptable risk, as inevitable risk i'm here to tell you to recalibrate that. frankly, the country need you to recalibrate that, because broadly speaking, there's no room for you in the hospital anymore. what you need to know is whoever's the most important person in your life. whoever you most love and most care for and cherish in the worlds, that's the person who you may lose.

>> good morning. and welcome back to "a.m. joy." i'm jason johnson. rachel maddow's emotional plea this thursday was amazing. television, amazing journalism, something we should all listen to as coronavirus surges out of control in almost every single corner of the country. looks like spaghetti spread across the u.s. map. this morning the number of cases in the u.s. topped 12 million. the cdc pleading not to travel for the thanksgiving holiday. 40% plan to attend with ten people or more creating super spreader events all over the country. i'm urging you not to be the turkey who put your loved ones at ri at risk. joining me? preventative medicine, family physician and committee to protect medicare in milwaukee, a

kri criminal defense attorney and staff writer for "the new yorker." and, doctor, there is a recent stat just came out saying 1 in 15 people in chicagoland could potentially be infected with the coronavirus. what on earth needs to be told to people in metro chicago to make them realize that there is no turkey worth going to see and risking your life this thanksgiving? >> thank you for pointing that out. the situation in multiple cities and regions in the country is similar to what's going on here in chicago. i think what has really challenged people is, all along this felt like somebody else's problem, and that the people i know can't have it, and we should all be okay. unfortunately, that is such a miscalculation. the people you do know, do have

it. when that many people have it everybody is one step away from exposure. that person you think has been safe, that they may be interacting with people through their essential work and essential roles who are putting them at risk. so you really can't know just what you're bringing to your table. i know people want to get together. it is important for people's mental wellness, but it's just not safe, and if you can delay and do it next year, that's better. >> doctor, listen to this -- this sound bite from dr. fauci on thursday, and what he is saying we need to think about. get your comments on the other side. >> we need to actually double down on the public health measures as we're waiting for that help to come which will be soon. we'll be getting vaccines doses into people at high priority end of december. i've used that metaphor, the cal

val vary is on the way. you keep going until the cal valerie gets here and might even continue fighting. >> doctor, clearly the calvary is stuck like the scene in "blazing saddles" couldn't get through the gate, but we're running into serious challenges right now. do you think enough people at the local level of listening to what dr. fauci saying even in the huge upsurge we've seen? >> i think that people have been listening but, in fact, they've become a little more used to maybe i never got it. so what i've been doing seems to be okay. when you look at the numbers, it's not okay. and we do need to make sure we're wearing a mask, we're wearing it properly. so it's covering both our nose and our mouth. that we're doing that in public and also doing it in semipublic, semiprivate spaces.

for example, i'm grog to be dropping o dropping -- going to drop out of food too my parents, a food exchange instead of gathering together, and i'll have my mask on when i drop the food off. when i take my children somewhere, my children are older, but if i was dropping my kids off at a day care i want to make sure i'm wearing my mask, in case i have coronavirus i'm not close to those teachers. so we are also washing our hands, using our hand sanitizer and really making sure that i'm making an extra trip or not stopping just for fun. trying to limit our exposure out in the public. that's hard. >> i want to point this out. thanksgiving evolved in america just like christmas. right? at one point christmas was a

time rich people opened up their houses for people to come and get stuff. thanksgiving changed over time as well. some call it colonizer chris mitt, don't like the idea what thanksgiving represents. from a cultural and historic standpoint sshs it real standpoint, is it that much a disruption to back off this year? haven't we had other times where major holidays had to change because the nation was facing crisis? >> sure. even think about it, that original thanksgiving, you know, where the colony was starving, and, you know, anthropological research suggests resorted to cannibalism to remain alive, and you know, it always has been kind of awkward to say commemorate that stuffing yourself with as much food as you can find and maybe perhaps people have to actually think about a small sacrifice that would be fitting in, keeping with this day. the other part of it, i think we've seen at different points

where people step forward and ask the public to sacrifice on behalf of a larger pause. world war i. certainly world war ii. people saw those things, during the civil war. this pandemic presented that same sort of challenge. i'm not sure that people have really kind of grappled with it in that way. one quick point to the doctors' point. i think, a friend of my, an e.r. physician in chicago told me he is gathering with his family. they're meeting outdoors. they're going to go for a socially distant walk. all of them are going to walk together and then going to divide up the food and eat at home while being in contact on zoom. i think there are ways we can respond to this creatively and still get the kind of family support and kind of emotional connection we need around these times, and say that there's nothing written in stone. like all of these holidays are

invented in some way, shape or form. nothing is written in stone the way you have to recognize it. >> exactly. look, nobody says thanksgiving has to have turkey. nobody says thanksgiving has to have mac and cheese, although if you don't have that i won't come. i want to bring this up. there's suggestions out there for how to have a nice, socially distanced thanksgiving. a way for people to stay safe. you look at this and how different kind of communities relish thanksgiving. for a lot of folks thanksgiving may be the only time of year the entire family can get together. do you think these suggestions are going to work? do you think the people are actually going to pay attention to maybe having a zoom party or walking around outside? do you think folks are pretty much stubborn and will do whatever they want? >> i hope so. one of the biggest problems we're facing with this pandemic is that america for a long time has lionized the individual for the longest.

soon as you're born in america, told you can do what you want, when you want and how you want to do it. the problem we're seeing unfortunately play out with this pandemic people aren't recognizing what they do affects their neighbor, affects something you don't even know. my hope, take the recommendations and understand that, live for another thanksgiving. live for another christmas. 2020 just wrap it up and understand that if you take precautions right now, you can make it possible to be around for 2021. i also think that a large part of the population, at least for now, has not had to, has not had to experience watching the funeral of a loved one on zoom. they have not had to experience bringing a loved one to the hospital and dropping them off at the door because they're not able to go in with them. this goes for people who are sick with other ailments. it's important and i think imperative for people to understand if we continue to overwhelm the medical system

right now, if your loved one gets in a car accident, has a heart attack, that cancer, it will be very difficult to get care. this isn't just about coronavirus. this is also about other health ailments we may suffer as a population. so it's time for america to get over themselves and understand that what you do has a direct impact on just about everyone else. people that you may not even know. >> that is a huge point, because, again, the regular kinds of things that can happen during the holidays. you know? like your uncle burns himself trying to fry the turken. people get into car accidents on the way there. the things that can be stopped because of people suffering from covid, the hospitals are filled. and niya, your family recently expanded. it's an exciting time of year, but also know you probably have lots of different kinds of people saying, hey, i want to visit, see family, et cetera. what do you people say as you host your radio show what kinds

of things to people need to say to family members to 14 s ts to thanksgiving? it's sensitive. telling uncle, parents not to come can cause conflicts. what can you say to tamp that down? >> i kept in mind top of mind as a parent and family member, safety first. number one priority. i was pregnant the first half of this quarantine covid situation and then had a newborn for the rest of it. baby girl is now 4 months old and not met an entire side of their family because they live in california. that's actually the side of the family we used to spend thanksgiving with. not it met siblings. my siblings. it's isolate at a time when usually babies are moments that people come together. pass the baby around. we're not doing that. the reason why is not because suddenly vie a better sense of what's going on than everybody else and am a better person.

it's literally because i read a story that struck me cold when i read it. a story of commit la grosyawno lives in brazil. eight months pregnant. great about isolating herself, protecting herself, and her husband and sister decided they wanted to throw her a surprise baby shower with a small group of, like, 10 or 15 people. at that time, the government allowed. well, she ended up not making it, and the baby had to be born by emergency c-section because the mother got covid and never met her child. i hear stories like that, and i think, oh, my god. the number one priority right now is safety. nothing else matters. i would have rather that all of us be around and be able to build these family bonds for the long term rather than right now in this moment. >> thank you for that. i -- i can't impart upon people enough that i want you to be afraid. i know that's terrible and i'll get memed by it.

be afraid if not for yourself than for the other people in your life. doctor, when we look at what can happen and we have a great visual here of sky harbor in arizona and we have o'hare airport. we see these pick commerce and fo -- pictures of crowded airports, et cetera. what are the numeric consequences? will the results be a week, two weeks, by christmas we see sort of another spike in deaths? what are the hard core numbers we could face if people don't listen and continue to travel and see family for the thanksgiving holiday? >> well, what we know is that of the people who are getting tested about one out of six in a state not doing so poorly and sometimes maybe one out of three of those people are testing positive. even if someone is wearing a mask, if you're in an area where there's 100 people, imagine --

you know -- 10, 15 of them have covid. and so even if you're wearing a mask, even if they're wearing a mask, if you're standing there for more than ten minutes, there's a pretty good chance you're going to get covid and then carry the disease without symptoms or i guess minor symptoms and pass it along and pass it along and pass it along. that's the problem. it's that -- that asymptomatic spread. look around, say one out of five. standing in a crowd with, who of those folks have covid? that's a lot. and ten minutes with a mask even a very good mask is about the limit to keep yourselves somewhat protected and after that a high chance you're going to be exposed and to get it not a shock.

>> quickly, doctor, the holiday season can lead to a tremendous amount of depression. we see increases in suicide, depression, suicidal thoughts. some happen because people have seen their families and sometimes happens because we're not going to see our families. quickly, what are suggestions you have for people hoop may be suffering, who may be lonely, who may be dealing with depression who are not going to see their families this year? what are outlets and resources to draw upon? >> very pleased you brought that up and i really like the suggestions earlier from the co-panelist that suggests ways to get together, but not to make the meal the highlight. i would say if we could all commit to getting together to reaching out to somebody who may be isolated or lonely. invite them to a telephone conversation, to a videoconference. show support. there are ways we can be together in safer situations outside. there are ways in which committing to connecting via the telephone is critically important, because mental health

is very important and mental health is part of one's overall health profile and things have been ex-pretremely stressful an hard for so many people. while we say don't get together, we don't mean don't come together. we can get to that once we get over this critical ferd in time. >> folks, reach out touch someone through the phone, through zoom. lots of things you can do. thank you all for joining us. thank you all so much. next up, once again, stephen miller, the gargamel of the trump administration proves cruelty. still the point. uelty. still the point. when you start with a better hot dog from oscar mayer, you can do no wrong. it's all for the love of hot dogs.

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substantial and will not be questioned. >> stephen miller, aide behind donald trump's cruelest immigration policies has struck again. sources tell nbc news that last year the white house killed a settlement that would have provided mental health care for immigrant family whose had been separated at the border. separated because of u.s. policies. the white house insists miller was not involved. but an administrative official sells nbc news, ultimately stephen prevailed and he squashed it. joining me now, one of the reporters on the story offering a reporter for the "new york times" and msnbc contributor as well. start with author of "finding latinx." jacob, start with you. stephen mill hear been known as one of the most ideologically driven and out and out racist members of this administration when it comes to immigration. what exactly has been his impact

on immigration policies at the border with the coronavirus? what has he used covid to do that made have been more difficult for him to do before? >> well, again, look kaitlyn to speak to this as well as i ask. he's expelled literally thousands of migrant children from this country under of cover of covid with little to no access to due process, legal counsel, and just recently a federal court obviously said that the federal government, the trump administration, must stop doing that. that's just the tip of the iceberg. even before covid -- right now with covid they are carrying out things they quantitied to car w during the separation policy. the most profound legacy and impact, you've heard me say before, the torture according the human rights of 5,500

children. child abuse according to the american academy of pediatric medicine and rejected also according to sources we spoke to fully negotiated settlement agreement to provide mental health care for the children they tortured after it had been approved by department of justice at the highest levels. >> kaitlyn, you did a story on the fact not only has the u.s. sort of abused and taken advantage of children, minors at the border, also deported them to countries they did not come from. how on earth has this happened? and how many different kinds of people need to be held accountable in a new biden administration for this kind of human rights abuse? >> i think there's a through-line to draw between all of these different policies. family separation, the expulsion policy included you pointed out expulsions of children back to random countries, sending central american kids to mexico.

not clear why. they're not from mexico and doing so violates natural agreements between the two countries. i think that the through-line is a haphazard treatment of children and policies that led to kids being separated from their parents for months and sometimes years on end. so i think it's really -- it's treating kids like they're not kids, like they're not people. so there are really big questions to ask once president-elect biden takes office, because i think one of the reasons why jacob's story this week is so important is because a separation doesn't just impact a family at it's playing out but really has impacts for months to years. for some kids, for their whole entire life. i've seen that, we've all seen that in the reporting we've done with families who are still struggling today. it's kind of hard to really quantify or wrap our arms around the level of what's occurred

because it's just so staggering. it's going to take time. >> and the assumption by less sophisticated political analysts was that donald trump and stephen miller and jeff sessions and republican party in general, their treatment of children at the border was going to galvanize the entire latino community to vote against donald trump and vote for joe biden and that's not how things played out. sometimes because people didn't understand perhaps because also cubans in florida are different from the ka hatejano family at border. how are they vies differently in different section of the latino community in america? >> of course. if you are a cuban in this country your experience as an immigrant is very different perhaps from a mexican person or someone from central america. the things i think about, cubans get to pass into the state as

white folks. they can detach themselves from that experience. they get to forget they, too, were once refugees, once immigrants. there is this sort of, a kind of, something that perpetuates racism among latinos and in trump, some cubans, right? some cubans in texas and some latinos get to forget they are immigrants. that is a very trick reality we deal with as a latino community to understand the different nuances and be face-to-face with the fact we, too, are racist. we, too, perpetuate racism and some people see power in whiteness. >> i think the discussion of sort of the difference between self-identified white latinos and other groups of people seeing these issues is something we really need to understand as american grows and browns in the future. jacob, something i wrote about a couple years ago. torture on the border. under jeff sessions border security and i.c.e. were given

the power to eventually eliminate their own internal complaints about sexual violence and abuse. they were allowed to take those complaints and after six or seven weeks able to get rid of them. any chance that as we begin in this new administration to review what's hatched to those children? any way to find out hard data or be able to find out how many of these kids may have been sexually abused by border guards, by different individuals they were placed with and bring those people to account? >> well, you know, again, the amount of abuse, the sheer volume of abuse you've written about and kaitlyn's written about is truly staggering. height of 2017, when the station was over full and did a story about the station where a young migrant girl suffered sexual abuse by a border patrol agent there. it's really up to the incoming administration and also we have to say the outgoing administration. what they do with the records and the evidence. right now i think a lot of

people are waiting and waiting intently to hear what the incoming biden administration plans to do about all of this. about abuse in border stations. about abuse of children under the family separation policy. what will the department of justice do? what will the incoming congress do? and i think that that's just that is just the tip of the iceberg. because there are questions about family detention centers. are they going to expand the use of family detention centers? what do they do about the expulsion toles we've talked about? where will he reunite the migrant families tortured and abused in words of experts? on u.s. soil or be in their home country? nobody when you talk to advocates and lawyers and the families themselves's want to have those reunifications take place by way of deportation of the children. i think all of this is part of the conversation that the transition team is having right now. frankly, there are a lot more questions than answers when it comes to what ultimately might happen. >> kaitlyn, there's a ktremendos

irony, stephen miller tried to use covid to kick people out of the country when the united states is leading the world. we're number one. not in a good way, when it comes to not being able to handle covid and able to handle infections. any questions, have there been any complaints about people hoop have been detained at our border who contract covid? because of the failure to keep them safe and protected? and what kinds of avenues would those people have, saying, hey, i came as a legitimate refugee, now contracted covid. can they complain, go to the u.n.? what are their avenues? >> a really good question. tons of people, thousands have contracted covid in american detention centers, and the u.s. has even deported quite a few people knowing that they have covid back to their home countries, and that's something that the "new york times" launched an investigation on. so it really just shows, again, that irony that you pointed out.

that this policy that's spelling adults and children, part still in place, is justified and predicated on existence of the coronavirus but we've known for years that stephen miller came into office, scrubbed through the entire federal code. did a very thorough job. no one can take that away from him, and basically identified ways that the executive power that the president should try to shut down the border without using or having congress involved in any way. he's done a very thorough job of that, and i think, too, when we look ahead, we're talking about the future, what's grog to happen. those of us who covered immigration for years before president trump took office, what we see is that the administration said, told us what it would do. enforce all of these laws and use these systems of enforcements to the fullest possibly extent. they've done that. i think the fallout we've seen underscores that the systems are

really the problem. as jacob brought up, family depension centers that have been for years called out for being inhospitable to basic needs of kids, and so we, it's the system that needs to be looked at moving forward. >> paula, real quick. so this administration, this outgoing administration, donald trump, always had a fraught relationship with mexico. first claimed i'll build the wall, make you pay for it. didn't work. and now that we're not just dealing with issues of refugees and migration, also covid, what do you think the incoming biden administration needs to do toe improve relations with proper handling of these families coming over the border? >> the fact we'll have a leader, knows how to navigate diplomacy will make the biggest difference. sees covid-19 as a real threat and knows where it's coming

from. mexico, end of the day, did end up becoming one of trump's supporters. right? did, they did end up becoming the folks that created a wall for latinos and immigrants. one of the toughest crisis joe biden is up against, tearing down the border. reconciling the relationship that donald trump and actually -- the biggest surprise. mexico did end up becoming one of donald trump's best friends. so let's see how joe biden deals with that. i think there's reasons to be hopeful. >> that was surprising. lopez, far apart as you can imagine politically. thank you all. thank you all so very much. ahead, as the coronavirus throws a wrench in our nation's economy, we look at what this could mean for the entertainment industry when we come back. laundry. spray and scrub anything with a stain. wash the really dirty clothes separately. tide pods with upgraded 4-in-1 technology unleash a foolproof clean in one step.

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with the world so divided and everybody telling him he's

got to given up and time to leave and time to transition and all the rest of it, why not name the vaccine the trump -- have you gotten your trump yet? a nice gesture to him. >> after geraldo rivera's bizarre suggestion to name a covid vaccine after trump, this commentary immediately went viral. >> for my money, geraldo raise as good point. it's possible we just don't give the president enough credit for his fzdr like focus on the viru, sympathy he's forever expressing to the families of the quarter million dead. eastern the way the president lectures us in that way, to please, wear a mask, and stop the spread. and he's always advocated injections. geraldo may be on to something. what trump stakes did for the hungry what trump water did for the thirsty in our nation.

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this week, warner brothers releasing "wonderwoman." weeks after disney releeched remake of "milan" for a $30,000 fee on disney plus. and regal cinemas, second largest chain in america closed all theaters recently, so what does it mean for the entertainment industry's postpandemic future? joining me, an independent film producer and a senior

entertainment reporter for "undefeated" and president of wilpack productions. start with you, kelly. there is a list of huge blockbuster films that have all delayed this summer. i know movies like "escape room 2." sorry. i liked the first one. "ghostbusters afterlife" others, pushed back to next year. what will this be like to other movies already slated for 2021? >> yeah. people, i think the st-- i mean the studios. look at netflix, for example. the first half of this year they picked up an excess of 25 million new subscribers. i'm willing to guess and bet a lot of those subscribers came in march and probably early part of april because suddenly everyone found themselves at home with not, with no access to the outside world.

so partly netflix the first streamer to pick up a lot of these projects. and look at gina, the other feel needed, made to be seen at the theater and opened in 190 markets. same time around the world, got way more eyeballs than it would have. probably what's going to happen is studios will look at new ways to measure success. the old way is antiquated. box office sales. now that box office sales really aren't showing full potential how financially strong the film is doing, looking at other ways. disney plus has now more than 60 million subscribers, for much the same reason amazon has a slate of good films coming end of this year through next spring they'll try to do the simultaneously release at theaters, also release at home model. i think that's really going to be a new direction we'll see hollywood go into. >> saw something similar 20, 25

years ago, when studios released look at box office and dvd sales? right? box office wasn't the only way to determine if the film was successful. ira, a real challenge, though, this is going to have an impact on movie theaters. right? 2,600 people in different areas getting fired, laid off, not able to come back to the theaters. look, if i'm working at the local regal cinemas or the local lohs lowes doesn't help me amazon or disney is coming on. what happens as a coronavirus pandemic fear goes into next summer? >> we don't know when the pandemic will end. at some point it's going to end and people will crave communal experiences. craving being out of the house. since the beginnings of the movie industry, more than 100 years ago, there have been existential let's to the industry that have been somehow

pushed aside in the industry to survive. werther talking 1918 pandemic or invention of home video, you already mentioned. everybody keeps thinking that theatrical will go away but it's a completely different experience than seeing something in the home. i think that the point just made about the business model of theatrical movie-going, i do think people have to take a really close look at what kinds of movies belong in theaters. pricing models that are, that are actually being used at the moment. the structural problems within the movie industry, but the fact is that it's going to survive. it may not look the same as it looks like now, but i don't believe it's going away. >> so what do you think would be the pitch, ira? say, you know, it's next summer, next june. maybe the vaccines are delivered in certain locations, not others. what do you think the movie theater's pitch will be? i want to see "ghostbuster:

afterlife" most as the next, but will take a lot for me to step into a mother theatevie theater? what will they do to get people to step into a theater that wasn't so clean before? >> that's a myth. they're cleaner than they've ever been now. i don't think it will take much to get people back. you can make the same argument about live sports, restaurants, any number of different types of things that are going to require people to go into communal spaces. i think the big pitch is about the audience. it's never been, in my opinion, about the big screen. never been about the sound. all of those things are great in movie theaters, but nothing like seeing a movie with an audience. laughing, crying -- you know, being scared out of your chair. doing that with other people is a very, very different experience than sitting in front of the tube at home. >> james, so you work in production, and you've seen some

challenges of not just sort of trying to get people tested, but moving from location to location to put something together. there's a lot of data out there now showing that just millions and millions of dollars have been lost in production throughout the country, because of the pandemic. how do you survive from a production standpoint? do you have to scale back things you were doing? change locations? other, entire movie ideas shelved? what's the dynamics and how adroit do you have to be in production to survive this pandemic? >> well, we did, what we did in our company looked at our slate immediately when the shutdown happened in march and looked at our slate and had conversations about what paurojects we think could move forward with later in the year and we're in production right now down in new orleans on a small psychological horror with a small cast, small crew, and just a smaller footprint

overall. it's very hard to mag, even with this small footprint, but we had other projects ready to go. a large musical with several cast members and a lot of sings and dancing. there was no way in the world we could meev forwaove forward wit particular production. looking at the projects and figuring which we feel are more manageable in this state of the world right now, and pushing back the larger productions until there is a vaccine. >> kelly, you know, in many places the movie theater is sort of the center of an entertainment district. restaurants, movie theater, mall, town center. one of the things i think is something that i've noticed is, my friends who may have -- children, have families, wait a minute. i can spend $30 on "milan" and pop popcorn at home? i'll never take these kids back to the theater. i don't want to know have to manage kids and their friends and et cetera.

do you think the successability of big blockbuster films will make families, a key part of theaters stays alive, will that make them stay home even after things open up? >> i do. the first example we got of that when "trolled: world tour" came out begins of the pandemic. a lot of people are watching that and paying attention to how well that did. turns out it did really well. something we also have to look at is how people who are able to do this during this time. it's also very challenging i know for families at home, but invest in their home theaters. look at all the deals, the big derailers, best buy are offering out with sound bars and kind of upgraded experiences. people are doing projection screens in their backyard, making it a different family experience. that film, the "trolls" film, what happened, people, parents were able to talent that film for two days. sit their kids down in front of

it for $30, whatever it cost, got to watch that film 18 times in a row. made a lot of money. it did very well and i think other studios are paying attention to that model to see how they might be able to adapt something, too. we're seeing it happen in real time, too. we don't know the exact right formula is just yet. we saw disney plus play around with it a little. we'll see other streamers do the same. i absolutely think this is probably going to be a little bit of a cultural shift. i personally love watching films inside of a theater. i do love that communal experience, but i think that families are probably looking at kind of ways to re-invent that at-home, family fun night friday and now that films are in the home, it's a little easier to do that. >> yeah. a big difference seeing "trolls: world tour" and "no to die." thank you all so much. up next, president obama gets personal. i got uh sausage -

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i didn't enjoy having to call donald trump and congratulate him for having won the night of his election four years ago, but i did it, because that's part of my job, and the same way that george bush called me, and invited me and facilitated my transig igtion. that's part of the continuity -- >> president obama didn't mince words on thursday here on msnbc. what else did he have to say? joining me, for this exclusive interview, msnbc contributor jonathan capehart. good to see you. start with this -- you know, president obama said, hey, he's kind of in favor of low, the temperature and bringing unity back. what were your thoughts when the

president was sort of pushing for that kind of reconciliation narrative, given what we've seen from trump over the last four years? >> you have to understand the nature of the question that i asked. that was based on an incredible vignette in the book where he says that in his going to the inauguration, his inauguration, riding with george w. bush the limousine take as turn and sees signs says indict bush and war criminal. president obama made him feel angry how he thought it was graceless for the president to see this in his final moments of president of the united states and how it was another sign of the degradation of our, of decorum in our society. so i asked him. so does that mean when the inevitable protesters show up to demonstrate against president trump that you're also going to be angry and what does that say where we are as a country?

and he said to me, immediately, without head kagsitation. jonathan, that was 2008. this is 2020. i hear what joe biden is right, saying low are the temperature, that we have to come together, but we also have to be mindful of the fact that president trump spent his entire term basically picking at the scabs of america's wounds and dividing people and pitting people against each other. so he understands why people would show up and demonstrate against president trump. that's the full context of the sound bite you just showed. >> you know, i'm glad that president obama evolved enough to understand it was fair for people to accuse george bush of being a war criminal and for people to be unhappy about donald trump. i want to play this sound now about the republican party and how they have been intimidated by trump and your thoughts when we come back. >> i'm less surprised by donald

trump doing this. you know, he has shown only a flimsy relationship to the truth. i'm more troubled that you're seeing a lot of republican officials go along with it. not because they actually believe it, but because they feel intimidated by it. >> so do you think, jonathan, when you talked to him, do you think that president obama is surprised? i mean, didn't he see that same kind of group-think from republicans back when he was president? >> again, the context of, in this conversation, i was asking him about the news of the day. which was what the, those folks in wayne county, michigan were doing to try to decertify the election, and i asked him if -- you know, people were using the word "coup" to describe their actions. i asked, do you think it's a coup? being hyperbolic? is american democracy under threat? then he said, you know, donald

trump is donald trump, but it's the republicans on capitol hill who are surprising him that they are going this far. he's not surprised that they have been obstructionists this entire time, through his tenure and what they're doing now in terms of only focusing on judges and not on covid relief, but what he finds surprising is that when -- american democracy is literally hanging by the balance. that republicans on capitol hill who always professed their love for the constitution, wanting to uphold the constitution, are silent in the face of direct threats against it. that, to him, remember, a former constitutional law professor, that, to him, is what is surprising. that they've been intimidated by the outgoing president of the united states. >> jonathan, what compels the president to basically drop his new book now? i mean, it's -- you know, clearly it works. joe biden has been elected president. kamala harris is going to join him in the white house.

did the president, the former president have a particular reason he wanted to release a book now? was it sort of spiking the football? just the timing? what release his book now? >> i think because it was finished. remember, his book is -- >> less reason. >> the book was supposed to be out before now. and, you know, the president got to writing and writing and writing, and decided at one point, can't do it in one book. going to have to split it. so this is volume one. i asked him after the show, you know, hey, so, you got volume two finish? being a wise-a schlswise-ass. he responded, volume two is written's it could come out in a shorter time frame than this one. >> a dual book. much better. where can they catch the entire

interview later? >> reshown tonight from what i understand on msnbc. >> fantastic. jonathan, thanks for such a great intersue and for all the great work you do, and don't -- >> tonight at 11:00. yawn k encore presentation tonight at 11:00. thanks so much. >> thanks. that's our show for today. more "a.m. joy" tomorrow with me at 10:00 a.m. eastern. for now stay tuned for my friend alex witt. ♪ kraft. for the win win. of the financial system. le have been shut out [music playing throughout] my grandfather founded industrial bank in 1934 so black people would have a bank that would work with them. because our doors are open, other doors are opening to more opportunities for our community.

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welcome in on this saturday november 21st. the inauguration of joe biden 60 days away. president trump not conceding. less certain, power on capitol hill. hinges on what happens in georgia. the capitol hill cliffhanger ends in 45 days with voters in the two senate runoff elections making the deciding vote. good day, one and all. welcome to "weekends with alex witt" with just two months until president-elect joe biden takes office, donald trump seemingly desperate and so far unsuccessful maneuvers to overturn the election results hit another block or two. the state of georgia certifying

joe biden's win while two republicans from michigan poured twold water on his attempt to reverse the count there after a white house meeting. and this after voters from michigan sued trump, attempting mass voter suppression particularly among black voters by pressuring election officials into not certifying the results. of a of this comes against a backdrop of amare of coronavirus in the united states. and president trump's son don junior confirms he test positive to the virus. and covering latest developments for you constantly changing by the hour, first go to nbc's josh letterman in washington. josh, happy saturday to you. with this last hour we learned about a move from the gop in michigan, but