biden team doesn't know what the world is going to look like in january, february, march. and they're preparing not just domestically for turmoil, but internationally. what debt markets look like. you want someone -- they want someone like yellin with a hand at the till so if you enter choppy waters you have someone who can talk to congress and they can calm things and hopefully bring the economy through to the other side. >> that message of calm really trying to resonate throughout the biden campaign and these picks. hans nichols, thank you my friend. always great to see you early in the morning. for today each watching what is mitch mcconnell going to do? his senators are saying that the transition needed to start. lamar alexander, rob portman, others. but we have not heard from mitch mcconnell about joe biden who is of course the president-elect. is today the day? i guess we'll find out. thanks for getting up "way too early" on this tuesday morning. don't go anywhere because "morning joe" starts right now.

good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, november 24th. along with joe, willie and me, we have white house report for the associated press, jonathan lemire. nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early," kasie hunt back with us. and joe, it's book day for you. happy book day. we'll get to that in a moment but first, a lot happened yesterday to clear the way for the trump administration to actually recognize joe biden as the president-elect. let's go through how things played out. it started with the state of michigan's top election board voting yesterday to certify president-elect joe biden's win over president trump with a margin of more than 154,000 votes. three out of four board members including one republican voted to certify the election results.

the other gop board member withheld his vote. last week, president trump welcomed two other state lawmakers from michigan who had been pushing to delay certification in key counties to the white house in a move that many saw as an attempt to influence the certification process. yes. yesterday, michigan secretary of state tweeted in part, quote, democracy has prevailed. the election was fair and secure. and the results accurately reflect the will of the people. and with that, though the president himself is not conceding, the trump administration has finally cleared the way for the biden transition. the head of the general services administration informed the president-elect yesterday that he'd been approved as the apparent winner of the election unlocking federal funds for his transition and allowing him to coordinate with federal agencies

even more urgent amid the coronavirus pandemic. in a letter to president-elect biden, gsa administrator emily murphy said, please know i came to my decision independently based on the law and available facts. i was never directly or indirectly pressured by any executive branch official including those who work at the white house or gsa with regard to the substance or timing of my decision. in a tweet moments after her decision, president trump insisted it was his recommendation to move forward with the transition, but he added our case strongly continues. we will keep up the good fight and i believe we will prevail. the president also tweeted late last night that he will quote, never concede. and that his legal challenges will continue. multiple sources tell "the new york times" that in recent days,

top aides including white house chief of staff mark meadows, white house counsel pat cipollone and the personal attorney jay sekulow all told him that the transition needed to begin. "the times" reports that the president continued to solicit advice from rudy giuliani who told the president that his legal options had not yet been exhausted. "the washington post" reports the president was angry about the pressure from his top aides, quote, he called political advisers monday to say he had doubts about the gsa initiating the transition to inquire about whether he could block certification of the michigan results and to express reluctance to travel to georgia to campaign for the two republican senators facing runoff elections. despite trump's resistance, "the post" reports that the officials throughout the administration plan to coordinate with counterparts on the biden team

starting today. willie? >> and another piece of this, mika, prior to the gsa recognizing biden's win, a growing number of republicans now voicing support for the transition process to begin. senator bill kasly tweeted last night, after the gsa ascertained the election, quote, i voted for president trump but joe biden won. the transition should begin for the sake of the country. senator john cornyn of texas said yesterday the outcome of the election is quote, becoming increasingly clear. and that evidence of a systemic problem seemed to be wanting. rob portman called for the president's election challenges to wrap up, adding it is in the national interest that the transition is seamless and that america is ready on day one of a new administration. senator shelley moore capito of west virginia put out a statement saying president trump's window for legal challenges is rapidly closing and that biden's transition team

should begin receiving briefings to facilitate a smooth transfer of power and senator lamar alexander of tennessee said my hope is that president trump will take pride in his considerable accomplishments, put the country first and help the new administration succeed. when you're in public life, people remember the last thing you do. also contributing to the pressure were more than 160 top american executives in the business world call on the trump administration to acknowledge the president's defeat, concern that the stall tactics are hurting the country. they sent a letter yesterday asking that the administration immediately begin the transition to joe biden. executives who signed the request included those at the top of companies like mastercard, visa, metlife, the carlyle group, conde nast and goldman sachs and blackrock. separately one of the trump's ardent supporters and ceo of

black stone, stephen schwartzman said in a statement to nbc news, quote, the outcome is very certain today and the country should move on. so joe, this morning, we are three weeks past election day now. donald trump and his small team now of lawyers, it gets smaller by the day, still throwing out the garbage, the sewage, trying to cast doubt on the election. but yesterday felt like a moving day and you saw the businessmen and the gsa say it is time to move on. >> right. fox primetime hosts even said it was time to move on. there were a few things that happened, the certification of the vote in michigan and seeing the statement from stephen schwartzman, one of the president's biggest supporters and we always say, follow the

money. i'm not claiming he has any connection to trump with money, but when we read it yesterday, we thought it was a shot across the bow. that was going to move him. and then, jonathan lemire, go to the michigan certification where one republican voted to do his job and certify the vote. and pretty much guaranteed that, you know, at least for another presidential election we just might follow the constitution of the united states of america and left the president backed further into the corner. >> that's right, joe. the pressure obviously had been building here immensely on the white house for weeks, particularly in recent days as more and more of their court challenges were not just ended in defeat but did so in humiliating fashion. the final piece is as people

close to the president were this. the growing voices from the republicans, the business leaders says it was time to move on. the white house had put so much hope in michigan. some of the republican officials were at the white house at the end of last week in an attempt to try to change their mind that didn't work. and then we have of course the gsa. and emily murphy finally going ahead and giving the okay to the ascertainment of this transition. although it should be noted she did so in a letter which largely condemned the media coverage of herself and she never uses the phrase president-elect in order to describe joe biden. also within the president's inner circle, in the last couple of days, some of his advisers, pat cipollone, chief of staff mark meadows suggested to him that it was indeed time to start cooperating with the transition. he never had to say that he was going to concede. and that he could in fact still fight some of -- you know, with

the legal challenges, but they had to give the okay, that the behind the scenes work began. as the president as we reported today, again, growing angry and frustrated with rudy giuliani who he is indeed still talking to. but told people around him in recent days he felt like giuliani had oversold his legal case. that he was -- the president was humiliated by watching giuliani on stage last week in that news conference with the hair dye streaking down his face. and that equally is upset when a conservative pennsylvania judge tossed out with prejudice the trump legal team's case over the weekend. sort of closing that avenue as well. and he recognized that there was really no hail mary coming here. and so -- >> so, jonathan -- >> he's angry at giuliani he had led him down this path. >> can i ask you this, it's interesting. we talked before about giuliani wanting to be secretary of state and the president even recognizing four years ago that

giuliani had lost a step or two. we now have the president of the united states coming to the realization that rudy giuliani led him down the path that had -- that was a dead end. dead end side road, so now he's feeling humiliated because of that. i find that fascinating because it was really giuliani when the history books are written, it is giuliani going to be blamed for being largely responsible for prodding and pushing donald trump into doing things in ukraine that led to his impeachment. he certainly must understand that but for giuliani, he wouldn't have been impeached. but for giuliani's flying around the ukraine back and forth giving him false information -- i mean, certainly advisers around donald trump pinned much of the blame for the impeachment on rudy giuliani and you wonder

how many times can donald trump listen to rudy giuliani's advice. >> and the thing that trump cherishes and prizes most of all among his aides is the willingness to go on tv to defend him that's what many people close to him have said that and giuliani does do that. he did so in 2016. he did so most notably during the russia probe, during the mueller case. people close to the president say that, yes, that trump has awareness that giuliani led him astray during ukraine but that's overshadowed by the sense from the president that giuliani did some some good in the russia probe, with his fog machine to confuse the issues and deliver attacks on mueller that seemed to undermine the special council's credibility. the president was willing to keep him in the orbit and we saw the role that giuliani played in

peddling baseless theories about joe biden and his son hunter. he is not willing to cut him free, but certainly frustrated with recent days. as a final point, we shouldn't -- that tweet, we should not expect a concession, a full-fledged concession from the president even as he agrees to go along with the transition. that tweet probably the closest we'll ever get. >> wow. kasie hunt, there's some surprises on the republican side yesterday. how many republicans are finally saying what they're saying quietly out loud? >> well, there's still only a handful officially saying president-elect, but willie ticked through the list of those who came around and said, okay, we've got to start this transition. and the one that i was the most noteworthy was senator rob portman who yesterday morning not too long after we got off the air yesterday wrote an op-ed for his hometown paper which is

a deliberate decision and act and said it is time. he set a deadline of december 8th which is related to how the electoral college works. it's the deadline when states have to say that this is where their electors are going for donald trump to do this. now, we obviously since then have seen the gsa take this action and certify it. but portman is a member of the establishment, he doesn't really break with leadership very much. then after that, we saw some more rank and file members. bill cassidy who tweeted that out. you will notice they seem to have basically the same message. they're saying i voted for trump. i think he would have been a better president but joe biden won the election. that's clearly the message that mitch mcconnell has advised his team -- his conference to come out and say to try to avoid angering the current president. you know, there's reports that the president is complaining about going to georgia to help them win the senate majority. i mean, this relationship is so

extremely fraught. but you look at what the business community was saying, i mean, i think that's a critically important piece of this. it's an untenable position. biden's team they were smart in how they put, you know, public pressure on this by announcing their national security team that means reporters like me and others on the hill will go to the republican senators and will say, are you going to vote in favor of blinken for secretary of state. if you're marco rubio or john cornyn, how do you answer that question with a straight face if you're not even willing to say, i don't think he's been elected president. it puts them in the terrible position. everybody knows -- everybody knows that joe biden won the election. we are finally though -- yesterday, you know, i told you, joe, i wasn't sure when this would happen. it seemed like yesterday really was the dam breaking here. >> yeah. really was even though too many republicans still not admitting

to the obvious which is sad and pathetic. they were a couple of tweets after the michigan results. one is from jake tapper. the system worked only because conservatives like erin von langfeld and matthew brann in pennsylvania had more integrity than those in washington combined. there's an attempt at revisionism and the news media can't let that happen. i second that. what you saw out of the rnc was repugnant and vile, it was antidemocratic, it was post democratic. it was -- it was one of two parties following an autocratic president. just, again, shocking that we have ever seen it in our life. but we can't forget that and we can't forget all of the senators, united states senators and house members who remain silent during this time.

while the president said openly, he said it openly, he was going to try to steal this election. he was going to try to thwart the will of the majority, the will of the 80 million voters. the will of those in michigan, in pennsylvania, and across the country who had selected joe biden to be the next president of the united states. so it's unfortunate they don't have their courage. they will be remembered. the second one is a tweet from scoops who said, biden has won michigan so in times that he's legally required to change his name to ohio state. >> oh, i saw that. >> that, my friend, is harsh. >> that's savage, savage tweet. i mean, if you're ohio, ohio state fan that's as tough as it gets. yeah, i mean, it's an amazing thing. as i said, three weeks from election day, that makes us 2 1/2 weeks away in media

outlets calling joe biden the president-elect. a standard that republicans recognize for years and years and still haven't. if i can kick it back to kasie for one more second, what now is mitch mcconnell waiting for? he's obviously the leader of the republican party inside -- in congress. if it's not ascertainment which we saw yesterday from the gsa, if it's not the certification of michigan which puts joe biden officially over 270 electoral votes, are they just going to pretend he didn't win the election forever or how is this going to go? what more do they need to see before they call him president-elect? >> well, willie, it seems like the deadline that got set was that december 8th deadline for calling him the president-elect. i mean, this is -- we saw mitch mcconnell last week essentially say, well, our words about this are irrelevant. that's clearly not how many

voters are feeling or how many of the members of the own conference are feeling. they're clearly feeling the pressure. i can't predict when mcconnell will come out and say this. he's pretty deliberate about statements like this. you may see a tweet over the weekend and then him repeating the contents of the tweet at his news conference next tuesday when they all come back from thanksgiving break. but again, what we saw yesterday wouldn't happen if mcconnell hadn't given some sort of signal. i mean, we wouldn't have seen this kind of ground swell if this wasn't where this was headed and that's kind of a deliberate strategy. but unfortunately we are where we are and the georgia runoffs again i realize we're talking about the big questions of democracy and the fairness of our elections. mitch mcconnell is focused on power politics and the georgia elections are the most important thing to him right now. >> we'll get to first look now at the president-elect's newest cabinet members.

later today the team which includes obama administration alums will assemble in delaware for an official announcement this afternoon. blinken will serve as secretary of state. he previously served as deputy secretary of state and deputy national adviser. alejandra mayorkas will be the first immigrant to be the homeland security secretary. he served as director of citizenship and immigration services. avril hanes will become the first woman to hold the role of director of national intelligence. she previously served as a national security lawyer and deputy cia director. jake sullivan was the national security adviser and he was a top aide to hillary clinton while she was secretary of state. linda thomas-greenfield will be named u.s. ambassador to the

u.n. former secretary of state john kerry will be the climate envoy. and former federal reserve chair janet yellen will be the first woman ever to be the treasury secretary if she's concerned by the senate. what an impressive list. let's bring in former nato supreme commander, james stavridis. "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner joins us as well. >> admiral, let's begin with some of the foreign policy selections. the "wall street journal" opinion page said they were internationalists. but also said on the other hand, talking about blinken and jake sullivan, they were also more

hawkish on some of the obama era debates. mr. blinken favored the intervention in libya and said that superpowers don't bluff talking about the use of the chemical weapons in syria. i would take it like me, you agree. superpowers don't bluff, you don't draw a red line and then step back from it and apparently that's where our new secretary of state believes as well. >> well, let's start with the team itself. kind of step back for a moment, joe, and this is the most experienced group coming in that i can remember certainly going back to bush i and maybe to the kennedy administration. if you listen to the titles that mika just read off, deputy to this, deputy to that these are people who are stepping up to the cabinet level.

they are experienced, they are well prepared. boy, how refreshing is that? number two, maybe more importantly, joe, this is a very collegial team. you know, this -- i'll give you a sports analogy. this one is for mike barnicle. this is like the 1980s celtics basketball team. they don't care who the high scorer is. they're more interested in getting assists than running up the score. and they're out there on field trying to make each other look good. it's that kind of group and i worked with all of them when i was supreme allied commander and they were in all of their jobs. then finally, you're absolutely right, this is an internationalist group. a little bit of a hawkish edge to it, but i think that's okay when it's tempered as you see from this group by that instinctive desire to reach out into the international world. they'll look for allies, they'll look for coalitions.

they'll look to work with international organizations. i think this is a fine selection and will serve the nation well. >> admiral, i don't want to put you in the bad position, but we have two names, michelle -- and jeh johnson, what are your thoughts on both of those as secdef? >> i know jeh johnson and michelle was the undersecretary for policy think chief operations officer at the pentagon. they're two peas in the pod in the sense that they fit the mold here. they're deeply experienced. they are thoughtful, internationally oriented. it's a can't go wrong moment. let's also recall that jeh johnson is a terrific legal mind. you can see him -- >> he really is. >> -- over at the department of

justice. >> you used the word collegial, qualified. that doesn't obviously dig into policy debates but what is is that signal at least to the world when you look at a group of qualified, competent, collegial people? >> it couldn't be a starker contrast. they're not only experienced in running the government, in the interagency process which is so crucial and there i think jake sullivan as the leader of the band is the perfect choice. by the way, he was a finalist to be the dean at the fletcher school of law and diplomacy where i was dean. i'm so glad he didn't take that job and is in the one he's going to. but they are going to, willie, be able to pick up the phone and call people they know in paris, in berlin, in tokyo, in saigon.

they know everybody around the circuit. huge positive effects for the united states of america. internationally as well as i think it's going to be a very seamless, selfless group in washington. >> so steve rattner, janet yellen will be the treasury secretary if she's confirmed by the senate. she led the federal reserve under the obama administration. would be the first woman to be the treasury chair as well if confirmed. a herculean task in front of her with the state of the economy right now. what should people in this country make of that choice? >> well, you know, i could echo pretty much everything jim stavridis just said about the foreign policy cluster. she's an extremely qualified woman. he mentioned all of the folks had been deputies. she has been as you said the chairwoman of the federal reserve. so she comes in with an incredible resume of long, long public service across a number

of administrations, chairman of the council of economic advisers under clinton, so forth. she's a very well respected academic economist and considered very nonideological. she is actually on the progressive side of thinking about our problems and what we should be doing. but she comes -- she was famous at the fed for saying, i take a data driven approach. that is how i have seen her, i saw her in a number of conference calls this spring during the pandemic offering advice to congressional and other leaders. i think everything she said was in that same vein. very much on the side that government has a role to play. government needs to lean in on these programs, we need to have more stimulus. we need to help individual families, we need to help individual business -- small businesses. the business community i think will view this very positively. she is certainly well known in the business community and

thought of and frankly the business community will be very relieved that there weren't some other choices made. and so this -- this is a good signal to i think both sides of the democratic party of someone who's committed to -- as i said a very nonideological, do the right thing, but leaning in kind of approach. i would lastly note actually she was confirmed to the federal reserve with 14 republican votes including three from republicans still in the senate, so it will be interesting to see how they handle that. the last thing i would say to echo what jim and others are saying, this is yet another example of having a president who actually had experience, who has relationships, who has the ability to pick people he knows and is comfortable with for his top jobs and have them really be the a-team for the country. >> one of the concerns that i

had heard about steve mnuchin's selection and having experience with the international businesses and the ceos, he wasn't connected. so if we had a 2008 type of crash he couldn't pick up the phone and assure the markets about where the direction of the country and the economy was going. i would say, janet yellen is the antithesis of that. we are most likely headed into some rough waters ahead in 2021, even though the market doesn't show that right now. it seems to me, at least, correct me if i'm wrong, but with the connections that yellen has across the globe with business leaders, with bankers, she is perfectly suited just for that moment. >> that's exactly right, joe. she is perfectly suited. she is absolutely the right choice. as i said before, she may be the first woman but she's i think

quite arguably the best qualified for this job of anybody because of her long experience. she has been through crises, has enormous connections but certainly with all of the major policy leaders around the world. i think she'll be a source of reassurance to all sides of this, she is a clear thinking, data driven person and her challenges are enormous. the economy is clearly slowing down, particularly some of the programs put in place have expir expired. it's possible that unemployment goes up in the next month or so as people are hunkering down more. jpmorgan revised down the first quarter gdp to a negative number so the economy can start shrinking again. we desperately need another stimulus package and because of her experience of very senior jobs i think she's highly respected on the hill and has the relationships to speak with credibility as to why this is needed. >> all right.

steve rattner and admiral james stavridis, thank you both very much. so in a final effort to contain covid numbers headed into the holiday weekend, several states and cities have added new regulations. in nevada, governor steve sisolak ordered a three-week statewide pause tightening restrictions on casinos, restaurants and private gatherings. in california, most counties continued to be under a curfew. but los angeles county has now prohibited in-person dining for three weeks. while in san diego county, a judge denied the request to temporarily restore indoor service at gyms and restaurants. in nebraska, governor pete ricketts warned of heightened social distancing restrictions if hospitalizations continue to rise. in colorado, the governor issued

an executive order to require hospitals and emergency departments to transfer nonvirus patients and to stop admitting new ones amid the influx of covid patients. meanwhile, in washington state, elective procedures like joint and heart valve replacements and cancer surgeries could be postponed to make room for covid patients. and in el paso, the city will be expanding its morgue capacity by adding 14 mobile morgues and a refrigerated warehouse as new investigations begin of 500 covid deaths in the city. my god. joining us now, dean of the brown university, dr. ashish jha. let's start with where the worst hot spots are or is this sort of a rolling situation across the entire country? where are you looking at?

>> mika, good morning. thanks for having me on. you know, there isn't a single spot anymore in this country. obviously the midwest remains probably the hardest hit. but as you pointed out, parts of texas are really badly hit. the northeast is starting to rise, parts of the south are really starting to take off. this is truly a nationwide event. this is very different than the surges of the summer and the spring. >> so dr. jha, you have an op-ed out today and you talk about the senate hearing you were called to last week, assuming that they were talking to you one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases on where we can go in terms of the therapeutics and what we should be doing as a country. instead, you had a group of senators mired in the idea of hydroxychloroquine. what did that hearing tell you about the state of mind of the people who are forming policy around this who could actually step in and do something to slow what you just described?

>> yeah, willie, it was a very, very odd event and it was odd in the sense that we have some really big challenges in front of us, and instead of talking about those, the entire hearing focused on hydroxychloroquine. now, hydroxychloroquine was an interesting topic in march and april. but by may or june, we have -- we had all moved on and the reason is because all of the data came in and it doesn't work. what it reminded me of is that we in very different kind of information architectures or bubbles. there are a small group of people who still believe that hydroxychloroquine is sort of the miracle drug. and that there's a vast conspiracy of all of america's doctors and scientists that deny the american people this drug. that's what we need to be focused on and that's what we need to be talking about. there's always conspiracy theories in the context of the crises, but how it landed in the senate, in the homeland security committee that to me is the

baffling part. that stuff usually doesn't make it into the upper chambers of our government and there it was. >> service such a window into why we haven't responded better if that's where the leadership's thoughts and focus is. there's been some hope in some of the things we have heard from the biden administration, there's been hope on the vaccine front but neither of those takes effect immediately when we need it. so you have to wait until january 20th for a biden administration. got to wait longer for most of us to get a vaccine. so what is your hope that happens between now and say january 20th to at least build a bridge to a new administration? >> yeah. a couple of things. first is that i do think the biden team even though they're in transition could start doing certain things. they can start signaling to companies there's more focus on the testing, protective equipment, there's a market if they produce more. so there are certain types of

things they could do but the real leadership is coming from governors. we saw governor whitmore a week ago and stepping up and making hard decisions that were science based because they were the right thing to do for the people of michigan. seeing similar things from governor raimondo of rhode island and others. i think we need governors -- they're the ones who are leading and then we need congress to support them. the problem with the governors is they're running out of cash and only congress can provide the financial support they need to do the i think right thing. we'll be looking at vaccines and that will help a lot. >> dr. ashish jha, thank you for being on this morning. new york governor andrew cuomo has changed his thanksgiving plans with his family after backlash from some new yorkers. cuomo originally invited his 89-year-old mother and two of his daughters to come up to

albany to celebrate a quote very cuomo thanksgiving. that despite urging new yorkers to stay away from traveling and gatherings and after criticism from many new yorkers, accusing him of hypocrisy, he withdrew the invitation. jonathan lemire, governors, politicians, they're all getting caught in this. i think it's -- everybody's got their degree of risk, but at least from the science community there are uniform regulations and guidance to follow. it shouldn't be that hard. >> no, mika, i would say not. we have heard day after day on the show health experts advise against that, you shouldn't be gathering with family this year. we know there's a surge in hospitalizations in the weeks after thanksgiving. this is reminiscent of last week we talked about governor newsom

of california who of course has been telling residents in his state not to gather in groups, yet he and his advisers were seen in an indoor restaurant. he apologized for that. governor cuomo reconsidered before following through with the decision, but you're right. we're looking to public officials on either side of the aisle and cuomo has been praised for his leadership, if perhaps prematurely writing a book about it as the virus still surges in new york state. but it does go to show that often politicians have at times tried to have different standards for themselves than the people they're trying to govern and preach guidance to. >> still ahead on "morning joe," jaime harrison showed some serious fund-raising muscle in his race for u.s. senate in south carolina. could he bring the same skills to the dnc? he joins us next to talk about that. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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switch today.

democrats might have won the white house, but the future of their party is less clear. given poor importances down-ballot. the party has offered little on what they plan to do to move forward, especially as they face an almost inevitable fight between moderate and progressive factions. but our next guest who himself lost his election has an idea. >> well, i went down the old dirt road, shotgun house, went knocking on the door. old african-american man said, son, who are you, what do you want? sir, i'm jaime harrison. he looked at me and he said, okay. what do you want? i said, sir, this is the most consequential election. he said, son, let me tell you something. you see that road that you drove up on? i said, yes, sir.

what kind of road is that? dirt road. he says, son, that was a dirt road when ronald reagan was president. when both of the bushes were president. it was a dirt road when bill clinton and barack obama was president and that's still a dirt road. >> oh, my god, that's so good. joining us news the former democratic candidate for u.s. senate in south carolina, jaime harrison, who is launching the dirt road pac and who is reportedly in the running to be the next chair of the dnc. i love the dirt road pac already. tell us about it. >> yeah, thank you so much, mika. listen, i'm excited about this. the dirt road pac is is an initiative that i'm launching, you know, a hat tip to the efforts that we see going on in georgia and places like arizona. you know, we can't just parachute in, cycle by cycle, and expect we'll change states that have been red for generations. in order to do that, we have to

have a long-term and more sustainable approach. we have to invest in communities, particularly communities that we have been left behind for a long time. rural communities. african-american and latino communities that just feel disenchanted, that feel like nobody hears them and nobody is fighting for them. and so dirt road pac is my answer, it's to go into these communities, go in to areas that the party has not been in in a long time and invest long term in the areas because you know, rome wasn't build in the day. south carolina won't flip overnight, but if you sustain the investment in these communities we'll see the change so necessary and so needed. >> so you had so many advantages in the race, you had all of the money any candidate could dream of having. you ran what most thought was a very effective race against an ineffective opponent who at times seemed desperate, seemed whiny. he had broken his promise to

south carolina voters time and time again. had said one thing about donald trump when he was out of power. one thing about donald trump when he was in power. and yet, lindsey graham won the race handily. is south carolina just a state that democrats aren't going to be able to win for a very long time? >> see, i don't think so, joe. when you think about it, what were we able to do? we ended up getting 1.1 million votes here in south carolina. that is more than hillary clinton, that's more than barack obama by almost 300,000 votes. we even almost matched what donald trump got in 2016. and so there was some growth, but again, you are not going to change south carolina overnight. i'm not going to change south carolina overnight. it takes long-term and sustained investment to do that. you know, republicans in -- joe, you remember. republicans were in the minority all across the south for generations and they chipped

away at it. it was like water versus a rock. they just chipped away at it and they eroded it. we have to take that same type of approach in the south and we see that it can pay dividends. look at what stacey abrams was able to do in georgia. look at arizona, a state that was controlled by republicans, had two republican senators and now has two democratic senators. it takes a long-term and sustained approach. that's where the dirt road pac is going to focus on. >> let's talk about cultural differences across the country. northeast, very different in brooklyn than it is in orange burg, south carolina, than it is in orange county, california. i remember campaigning actually in 1998 across the country with steve largent and the same lindsey graham that we're talking about and i would go from one place to another where republicans could pick off democrats. but we went to northern kentucky and i asked the republican that we were campaigning for in '98

this guy you're running against how liberal is he on guns? he's probably conservative on guns and the second amendment and the nra is supportive of him. and i said, how about other social issues, whatever issue you're talking about, he was culturally aligned, he was conservative, he was pro life. he was culturally aligned with the overwhelming majority of the people in his district. i remember turning to steve largent and said, we might as well go. if we give the people to vote for a conservative democrat or a republican, these are my people. they're going to vote for a conservative democrat. i'm just wondering if that's not lost sometimes in washington, d.c. by the way, it was ken lucas, the democrat, that was running and he won that race going away. and it was very obvious because he was aligned culturally with the district. how important is it for democrats to do in 2022 what they did in 2006, where nancy

pelosi and rahm emanuel and other people, governor dean, found candidates that were culturally aligned with their districts that they ran in, whether it was upper midwest or the deep south. >> joe, that is essential. listen, we are not a monolith as a party. our states are not monolith. it's not a cookie cutter approach. you know, what happens -- what goes in san francisco or new york is very different than what might float in west virginia and south carolina and in kentucky. we have to understand that. we need candidates that reflect the values and the mores of the communities they want to represent. that's really, really important. we're a big tent party. we're very diverse in terms of our backgrounds and experiences and that's what makes us strong. so we need to allow people to run the campaigns that they need to run in their districts. you can't criticize people for reflecting the values of the

communities that they're representing or wanting to represent. so that's the type of approach i believe in and i believe that approach has served us well over the years. >> it's willie geist. good to see you. >> good to see you, willie. >> you're talking about the big picture, talking like a dnc chair right now. tom perez expected to step away from his job in february as the new biden administration gets going. is that a job that interests you as you look ahead to the 2020 midterms? >> well, you know, we have president-elect biden and when we have the white house it's up to the president to select who should be chairing the dnc. let me just say this, willie. if the president-elect calls my number then i'm getting into the game. so it's something that i'm interested in. i think i could serve a good job at, because i understand the dnc. i understand state parties and now i have the understanding of what it is to be a candidate for

office and so, you know, if my number gets called, then i will definitely step on to the field. >> okay. that's good to know. then so if your number is called you'll be in charge of changing for 2022 what we just saw a couple of weeks ago which is that the majority i think all maybe of the tossup races actually went to republicans. you had that now famous caucus phone call with nancy pelosi leading the call where you had some more moderate members saying, hey, guys, stop using the word socialism, stop talking about defunding the police. some office lost our races, they thought, because of that. so what do you make of that argument that there was too much focus on those questions of defunding the police and socialism? >> again, i think the candidates have to reflect the values of the communities that they're trying to represent. you know, lindsey graham often in my race said that i was supporting the defunding the

president and i wasn't. what we have to do as a party is fight back. the party that's actually defunding the police, not a hypothetical, is the republican party. donald trump proposed a budget to cut policing -- community policing in this country by $500 million. right now, police departments across this country have had to cut their budgets because they're failing to pass the heroes act and we can't take a punch and we have to throw a punch as well. that's something that we have to be comfortable doing. i know we haven't been always in the past, but i can tell you, going forward, we have to be just as aggressive as defining the republican party for who they are and what they're doing to the nation. >> kasie hunt is here with a question. >> good morning. always good to see you. if you were to become dnc chair,

the results of the election showed in some surprising weaknesses with latinos across the country. obviously, these communities are different, south florida no at the same as vegas or denver. who would you rely on? what officials -- what top folks in government would you call to try to figure out how to build connections in those communities for democrats if again you were running the dnc? >> well, you have the congressional hispanic caucus there and they're coming from the very diverse communities so therefore it's important to utilize the members that we have. the congressional black caucus, the same thing. the black community is not a monolith as well so you have a lot of diversity in the black community. you have to utilize the members that you have and the stars that you see across the country, one

of the things that's very important is to highlight some of these younger stars that we are seeing that are perk you lating up out of the state and getting them to do town halls and listening sessions across the country and making sure that the folks that are on social media and making sure that their voices are heard and reflected in terms of the messaging of the party. and that's going to be a very, very important component. >> jaime harrison, thank you so much for everything that you do and for being on the show this morning as well. great to see you. coming up, a closer look at the forces that pushed donald trump to finally begin clearing the way for the biden administration. plus, so many parents, teachers and care givers are simply trying to get by, day to day, amid this pandemic. but what are the longer-term

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it is just before the top of the 7:00 a.m. eastern hour here on "morning joe." former new york city mayor david dinkins has died. the mayor's office confirmed he died last night at his home on the upper east side of manhattan. his death comes just over a month after his wife joyce passed away on october 11th. in his historic 1989 victory, dinkins defeated three-term incumbent ed koch and later went on to defeat rudy giuliani by the narrowest electoral margin in new york city history. just 47,000 votes to become the

city's first and only black mayor. dinkins lost the rematch by roughly the same margin in 1993. dinkins is credited with leading a crackdown on violent crime and helping revitalize times square. he oversaw the establishment of restaurant week and fashion week. mayor din continues was 93 years old. >> so jonathan lemire, mayor dinkins a trail blazer and rudy giuliani himself has come out with praise, positive words for mayor dinkins. he was mayor of new york city during some of its toughest years. 1989 to 1993. racial unrest was extraordinarily high. we were in the middle of a crack epidemic, as well as the aids epidemic was continuing and a heroin epidemic. this was a city that in 1989

when he assumed office was already at a breaking point. >> mayor dinkins inherited a very difficult hand, fiscal turmoil, surging crime rates. very high murder rate in new york city as you said, drug epidemics as well. he was sort of a calm, steady hand. a harlem democrat, soft-spoken. very different than the mayors that -- like mayor koch who preceded him and then mayor giuliani who followed him. extraordinary classy character, dinkins. you know, he only served one term and voters did reject his handling of the crown heights riots which happened during his watch. but he's someone who history has started to view more kindly. giuliani gets a lot of the credit in new york city for driving down the crime rate in the 1990s but that drop began under dinkins who also expanded dramatically the size of the

nypd and the extra officers played a vital role in bringing down crime rates and making new york city safer. he is a mentor to now bill de blasio. he worked for dinkins while dinkins was in office and dinkins remained an advocate, kind of a quiet cheerleader for new york aftering -- after leaving office. he was always available to provide counsel to up and coming mayors. >> as you point out, joe, he took office on january 1, 1990. that is the peak of bad new york as it was known in the 1980s and the early '90s. it was the most murders in the history of the city happened in 1990 and as jonathan points out, mayor dinkins took steps, he added money, hired a bunch more cops and put more police out. so yes, mayor giuliani deserves credit for what he did, but this began with dinkins, the cleaning

up of times square, the lowering of the crime rate. things were bad in new york when dinkins took over. not only was he a historic mayor, the first and only black mayor of new york city, he was historic as a united states marine. he was one of the first african-american united states marines in a small group of them who broke barriers back in the 1940s. certainly a historic figure and a gentleman and continued to serve the city after his one term in office. >> yeah. it's hard to explain to people who weren't alive at the time or who were too young to remember at the time just how bleak new york city was in the late '80s and early 1990s. i remember leaving in 1991 and i swore i would never come back again because -- no, i read in an interview of a musician who had talked about new york city and what it was like to be able to walk out in new york city at night and walk from restaurants

to restaurants at 3:00 in the morning and feel safe. i remember reading that, thinking how strange that must have been in the early 1960s to be able to do that. in the late '90s through the beginning of this pandemic, something new yorkers were still able to do. we of course gave much of the credit, most of the credit to rudy giuliani and he deserved a lot of the credit, but also as you correctly point out the revitalization of times square which was so important to cleaning up the heart of the city began under mayor dinkins as did the increased number of police officers. rudy giuliani came in and took those advantages and did a lot with it. and turned new york city around. but i'm glad to see this morning that many of mayor dinkins' adversaries are recognizing that. >> jonathan lemire, thank you. and joining us now we have msnbc contribute ore mike barnicle.

white house correspondent for pbs news hour yamiche alcindor. sam stein and historian and the american presidency at vanderbilt university, jon meacham who unofficially advices president-elect joe biden. so let's go through the events from yesterday that led to the trump administration beginning to recognize joe biden as the president-elect. it started with the state of michigan's top election board voting yesterday to certify president-elect joe biden's win over president trump with the margin of more than 154,000 votes. three out of four board members including one republican voted to certify the election results. the other gop board member withheld his vote. and though the president himself is not conceding, the trump administration is finally cleared the way for the biden transition. the head of the general services

administration informed the president-elect yesterday that he had been approved as the apparent winner of the election. unlocking federal funds for his transition and allowing him to coordinate with federal agencies, even more urgent amid the coronavirus pandemic. in a letter to president-elect biden, gsa administrator emily murphy wrote, quote, please know i came to my decision independently based on the law and available facts. i was never directly or indirectly pressured by any executive branch official including those who work at the white house or gsa with regard to the substance or timing of my decision. in the tweet moments after her decision, president trump insisted it was his recommendation to move forward with the transition, but he added our case strongly continues. we will keep up the good fight and i believe we will prevail.

the president tweeted late last night that he will quote, never concede. and that his legal challenges will continue. willie? >> meanwhile, a growing number of republicans are beginning to voice their support for the transition process. bill cassidy tweeted last night, quote, i voted for president trump, but joe biden won. the transition should begin for the sake of the country. senator john cornyn of texas said the outcome of the election is becoming increasingly clear and that evidence of a systemic problem seems to be wanting. senator rob portman of ohio wrote an op-ed in the "cincinnati enquirer" calling for the election challenges to wrap up now, adding quote, it's in the national interest that the transition is seamless and that america is ready on day one shelley moore capito said that

the window is closing and that the biden transition team should start to receive briefings. senator lamar alexander of tennessee who is retiring said in a statement, quote, my hope is that president trump will take pride in his considerable accomplishments, put the country first and have a prompt and orderly transition to help the new administration succeed. when you're in public life, people remember the last thing you do said senator alexander. contributing to the pressure with more than 160 top american business executives calling on the trump administration to acknowledge the president's defeat. they sent a letter yesterday asking the administration immediately begin joe biden's transition. voicing their concern trump's stall tactics are hurting the country. separately one of president trump's ardent supporters the ceo of blackstone, stephen schwartzman said in a statement to nbc news, quote, the outcome is very certain today and the country should move on.

that grabbed a lot of people's attention because he has been a big supporter of president trump over the years. so yamiche alcindor, as you cover this white house, take us inside the room. there's been reporting that some of president trump's advisers, some of his attorneys, went to him and said, you have to at least allow this gsa ascertainment to take place. you don't have to use the word concede, you don't have to give up the race if you don't want to. you can say i'm going to continue to fight, but the transition process has to now move forward. and he at least allowed for that. >> well, this really became a culmination of republicans in particular who were scared for the democracy, scared for the very foundation of our country and realizing that the president after more than two weeks of processing his projected defeat, something really needed to give here. let's remember that this transition process that has played out over the last two weeks usually happens within 24 hours. emily murphy is obviously trying to really defend herself in this letter saying she came to this

decision independently and she said she didn't want to get ahead of the constitutional process. that's why she delayed this, but in all of the other past years that we have done a transition, it's been the same way that joe biden was demanding it from the beginning which is that you have a projected winner, there are a number of sources. nbc news has the decision desk, the associated press has it. this is not emily murphy coming to this decision out of nowhere. there was a growing chorus, toomey from pennsylvania, and more and more republicans saying this needs to go forward for the good of our nation. we're in the middle of the pandemic and the very distribution and the process of the coronavirus vaccine was and continues to be at risk because it's still a two-week delay. so there are a lot of people looking at not just the politics of this, but saying how are we as a nation going to deal with this pandemic if we allow

ourselves to be caught up and processing with president trump. so part of this is the president coming to this decision, but part of it also is the president really having to -- of course he's not going to be president again. he won't get a second term, but what are we supposed to do? he's the leader of the party. quickly, with republicans being scared of their own voters, republicans are saying how are we going to have the people stick with us if we go against president trump? and murphy said she came to this independently when president trump said, actually, i recommended to the miss murphy to go forward with this. we have to report out who made the decision. >> so jon meacham, few things happened yesterday that most likely moved the president

along. one was steve schwartzman, the ceo of one of the largest hedge funds in america and the world came out and telling him, blackstone, telling him -- telling him it was time to transition. and another was a bureaucrat in michigan who did the ministerial duty he was supposed to do which is to certify the election. but both of those were greeted with great fanfare. i do wonder what it says about the state of not just the republican party, but of this country, that three weeks after an election we are depending on such people to confirm what 80 million voters agreed on three weeks ago. >> yeah. yeah, it's one of the central questions going forward.

and i should be clear, i'm just speaking for myself and historically here. you know, 1964 was the high water mark of trust in the public sector. something like 77% of the country believed that the federal government would do the right thing some or most of the time. that number is now 17% and that feels awfully inflated to me. and so you have this trust gap that is not a passing question. it's not temporal. it's structural. and the country only works when enough of us, you know, self-government, popular government works when enough of us buy into a covenant, a system, that, you know, maybe we lose a battle today, but we stay in the fight to try to win one tomorrow. jefferson said, mutual concessions of opinion have

characterized free governments since greece and rome. it's that mutual concession of opinion that's under such assault right now and i think it's a great test of citizenship what we have learned anew in the last five years is that politicians are far more often mirrors of who we are rather than makers. and so it's at once scary that a lot of this is on us as citizens, but it's also somewhat empowering. and so here's hoping that, you know, the hedge fund that a lot of republicans are participating in which is they are hedging against donald trump's future political influence right now. but to use an example that i know you and my -- our roman catholic delegate from massachusetts will appreciate, you know, there's the parable of the prodigal son, right?

>> right. >> republicans may be coming late but they're coming. >> well, i know nobody wants to hear this either, jon. it is -- i will say just -- just i'm only saying this personally, just explain that i understand why people would be very angry at trump voters and why they would say these people voted for a man who decided that he wanted his attorney general to arrest his political opponent in the final two weeks of the campaign and then wouldn't guarantee a peaceful transition. you know, i'm still coming to terms with the fact that my dearest friends and many of my family members voted for a man who was calling for he arrest, who accused me 11 times of being a murderer. who wouldn't stop doing it even when the husband of the woman begged him to please stop bringing pain on their family.

and, you know, i have -- i have sat through the past couple of weeks and tried to process that and at the end of the day, i go back to in defense of the abhorrent practice of slavery and what did abraham lincoln say and in the worlds that are chiseled into the second inaugural address. with malice toward none. i always think if lincoln could say that in 1865, even after the war, can we not -- can we not do the same even with people that we just -- whose votes we just don't understand. by the way, let me be very

clear. as a small government conservative, as a hard core conservative, as a cold war hawk, which is why i wrote my book on truman, i am a conservative. i remain a conservative. it is my party that left me and my conservative movement that left me, jon. i don't understand them. i don't understand their anti-trumpism, but at the same time, there's some questions we're just not going to have time to resolve. we do have to move forward and rebuild this country and rebuild these bonds that have been broken politically over the past 30 years. >> yeah. i think that we have to be able to do two or maybe even three things at once. i remember the great churchill line when he came over at christmas 1941 after pearl harbor and hitler had declared war on us and he basically -- he

gave his first american speech and then said at harvard a couple of years later, you cannot -- to america, you cannot rise to be the greatest power in the world and escape the world's convulsions and the world's responsibility. you know? the price of greatness is responsibility. and so we have to have the ability to figure out how to have a conversation with each other instead of perpetual and reflexive conflict. that's not some sort of sentimental naive homely ittic thing to say. it's the essence based on reason. and for the founders, for all their faults and they were manifold, they were working in a context that they wanted the capacity of the mind to have a chance in the arena against passion which was the 18th century way of talking about

reflexive partisan, appetite, ambition. so this tension is very american. it's very human. but it does require the radical act -- this is radical of actually trying to listen to each other. and i know that most people don't -- a lot of people i should say don't want to do that. but american history would have been a lot smoother and a lot more just if we were not all relentlessly huck finn heading out for the territories. lighting out for the territories. you know? we like to look forward. we have to look back a little bit and figure out why this happened, why people continue to feel the way they feel. >> right. >> and see what we can do. because you can't be for autocracy when you're in charge and against it when you're not. right? that's not what we're supposed to be. we're supposed to be an

unfolding conversation. >> well, i guess we can sit and try to figure out, mika, why people feel the way they feel. i'm more concerned on why they're as comfortable as they were with an autocrat, with somebody who said he wanted his attorney general to arrest the political opponent in the last two week of the campaign, who would not guarantee a peaceful transfer, who put the country through the -- through in the last three weeks. again, i don't know that journalists that have been cloistered in new york city and washington, d.c., should run around america trying to figure out what people are trying to feel. and in the last election, i think there's a political sickness in this country. there are antidemocratic, post democratic instincts that as anne applebaum has written about, we have seen it in hungary and poland and sadly in

this country as well, i think it's our responsibility to figure out why that happened. i've talked to my friends and family members they don't have a good answer as to why they're supporting donald trump. they really don't. they sort of mumble around and say, oh, you know, i don't like him. i hate him. he's a horrible human being, but you know, he's our guy. really, again, nobody has really given a compelling, cogent reason that's based on verifiable facts as to why -- i mean to say that donald trump is a straight talker is laughable. >> but, okay, so then there are people who give things that are false as their reasons. >> right. >> and that is -- that's something we need to look at. i mean, that's actually the degradation of our, you know, media and journalism world. maybe there's a difference and

that, you know, there needs to be a reset in terms of the value of the truth and the news and there is a part that everyone had in this. there were many different ways that this all happened. and, you know for americans out there who base their beliefs and their votes on facts that are not true, that is -- that's a mountain we're going to have to climb as a country. >> yeah. we're looking at you, facebook. i spent most of my time when i asked my friend and family members why they were still voting for donald trump listening to their conspiracy theories that they had shared on facebook. that again, two minutes on google would have proven to them that it was just flatout false information, but again, it's not like they're babes in the woods. not like they don't actively go out trying to find information that's distorted and twisted,

but fits into their pre-existing prejudices and world view. that's exactly what's happened over the past three weeks and we have seen people doing it, not just on facebook, but on the cable news channels that they find. they seek out people who want -- who will reconfirm what they believe, even when they know it's not true. but anyway, something for us to look at and be thinking a anybody the coming years. >> we'll get a look at president-elect biden's team, which includes obama administration alum that will assemble in delaware for an official announcement this afternoon. antony blinken will serve as secretary of state. he previously served as deputy secretary of state. alejandro mayorkas will be

homeland security director. avril haines will be the first woman to hold the role of director of national intelligence. she previously served as national security lawyer and a deputy cia director. jake sullivan will be the national security council. he was a top aide to hillary clinton while she was secretary of state. linda thomas-greenfield will be named the u.n. ambassador. and john kerry will be the climate envoy. former federal reserve reserve chair janet yellen will be the first woman ever to be the treasury secretary if she's confirmed by the senate. >> mike barnicle, we have already heard praise this morning from admiral stavridis and obviously is welcome because he's nonpartisan and cares about

the defense of this country and the protection of this country. high praise from him, but then again high praise from most quarters for these selections. >> well, the level of experience and expertise is overwhelming and the reason that the level of experience and expertise is necessary because so much of our government is broken. within each department, joe, state -- all the way down to agriculture, housing, urban development, health, human services, broken. why is it broken? because the level of incompetence over the last four years has been unbelievable and the results are proven each and every day as the virus skyrockets around the country. so the people who joe biden intends to nominate and hopefully they will clear the senate, the hurdle of the senate approval, i think will make an enormous difference. so it's already made an enormous difference obviously in the

markets. janet yellen's appointment, clearly the markets approve because she has the international and the domestic expertise to do a job that is going to be really a difficult job in the next quarter and through the next three or four years. >> we are hearing a word, competence. often somebody who donald trump sees on tv he hires and puts into the position of power, some are internet trolls holding access to intelligence. when you cover capitol hill, what about the republicans? we're talking to kasie about this in the last hour. it's not the dam breaking yet, but we are seeing some leaks in the dam here. what is it going to take for mitch mcconnell and other leadership to say out loud that joe biden is the president-elect? is it in fact these two georgia

runoffs because that's not until january 5th. we have to wait until that week for the senate majority leader to say, yes, joe biden is the next president. >> i mean, look, i guess it's possible. there's obviously a good chunk of the republican party that just is frozen in place, fearful that donald trump will turn on them and call for a boycott of the georgia election and cost them the senate potentially. that's why they're frozen in place. there could be the procedural hurdles cleared that trump himself says it's over -- i doubt that happens or that mcconnell says there's no chance and the public believes him. the cabinet picks are beautiful in the boringness. they're old establishment types for the democrats and people who you would expect that are competent. there's no family members who

are taking high-level positions, no tv personalities. but the question still remains and one that biden kind of alluded to. can these people clear a republican-run senate? i mean, they mean so mundane and noncontroversial that of course they should clear the senate and yet that question has to be asked. while biden has the people in place, i think the real test of the success of his presidency is going to come down to the results of the georgia elections. could he have the 50 democratic majority senate or not and that's going to determine how much he can get done in the next four years. >> all right. we want to move now to the coronavirus pandemic which is raging across the country and while there is some light at the end of the tunnel, maybe six months, almost a year off from now, we may be at the end of this with vaccines, but what does over a year of anxiety and

isolation do to anybody but especially a developing brain? our next guest spoke with parents and psychologists about how the coronavirus pandemic has amplified the toxic stress too many families are already in and how it specifically is impacting american's children and also young people, teenagers. contributing editor at "new york" magazine, lisa miller, joins us with her with the latest piece. it is entitled, children of quarantine, what does a year of isolation and anxiety do to a developing brain? also with us, we have child and adolescent psychologist from mclean hospital. lisa, i'll start with you and your article and what did you find out, because i have a lot of kids and they're all experiencing something as it pertains to this pandemic. >> i mean, you said it well at

the top, mika. it will amplify whatever is happening -- whatever was happening before. so if you're a kid with a lot of depression before, you have probably more depression. if you were a kid who was really struggling with adversity in various ways, you know, not enough to eat, a difficult home life, especially parents who are stressed out because they can't pay bills, that will amplify your mental health issues. part of the problem is that parents are so stressed out trying to pay their bills that they aren't able to be there for their children in a way that's really comforting and nurturing and buffering for them. >> yeah. hey, gillian, let me bring you in for a second. this sort of reminds me of what we always hear when we get on planes and they tell us when the

oxygen drops, put it over our face first so we can take care of ourselves and then we can take care of our children. we have heard a lot about this, but i saw something yesterday in "the times." your brain is not for thinking. lisa feldman barrett, she talks about what i heard you talk about in the past, it's important to remember that anxiety and stress and discomfort is actually -- it's not -- often it's physical and there are things that we can do, these body deposits that she says, these things that we can do to actually relieve that stress. tell us about that. >> so if you think about anxiety, i mean, anxiety is a physiological response that we feel in our body. it is our brain preparing us to move into action. right, it's that's flight or fight response, that gets your breathing faster, and these are the things that mobilize us for action. the problem is that when we

don't actually need that action, right, that we're just extremely stressed out. and everything gets going really quickly and it becomes really hard to focus and really hard to think. so actually before you can even solve any problems or move into thinking about kind of what your next step is, the best place to start is to slow down your physiology. right, something as simple as taking a deep breath and actually controlling your breathing. right, so, you know, doing things like what we call pace breathing. so very, very basic practice. things like making your exhale longer than your inhale. so maybe i might inhale for five breaths, slowly, and then i would exhale longer for seven. right, what this does is it actually slows your heart rate. so remember there's a feedback loop between your brain and your body. if your body is activated it is sending signals to your brain like something is -- something is wrong. something is wrong, we have to mobilize for action. when you slow your heart rate by

doing the kind of the breathing there's many, many different kinds of focused breathing that does two things. so it starts to slow your heart rate down. it gives your mind a point of focus. as your thoughts are spinning which often happens with anxiety, this just gives you a point i can focus on the inhale, focus on the exhale. i can count my numbers. i can count into five. i can count out to seven. again, this isn't solving any of the big-time problems in front of you. this is just getting you to regulate your physiology, slow down your anxiety. so that then you can think about what you want to do next or what you need to do. >> but mika, as you always say to me and what gillian also says is it's not going to fix the covid crisis, right? but what it does is it slows you down and stops you from reacting in a way that slows you down and puts you in the position where

as i would say as a former football player, you can see the entire field. and you can relax and then take a couple of steps back and move away physically from that anxiety. >> actually universal advice for better days and especially now. gillian, i want to follow up on that and get back to lisa. it's such an important exercise and you share a lot more of those, but are you finding in your work with adolescents and young people that there's an uptick in numbers and people checking in, in these issues of anxiety and depression? >> absolutely. it's coming, you know, from the adolescents that i work with, you know, as you discussed in the article as lisa discussed, their parents are stressed out. the kids are stressed out. you know, this is a time again where we actually -- the things that are predictable in our lives they're not so predictable anymore. we don't know if we'll continue.

you may be going to school or to college, you don't know if you'll do that in person anymore. you may have a part-time job that you love in a restaurant that gives you something to do to get out of the house and then the restaurant closes. so the level of unpredictability up, the things that keep us steady and that we look to structure our lives, they're not so predictable anymore and we don't know when it will end. >> lisa, it's willie. your piece is a must read, you don't have to be a parent to read it. you see so much of your own kids in it and you realize what they're going through and when the new york city schools closed last week, a lot of the disappointment for parents was yes, that they're going to lose some ground academically and it's much harder to learn at home and we all know that. what's the long term impact of the lost months that will turn into the lost year for so many of these kids and these milestone moments they ought to

be having with their friends and their teachers in school. so as you reported out this piece what did you find about the impact of not being in a school on the mental health of kids? >> i mean, the thing to really worry about, right s the kids who need school to look after them. to make sure that they're fed, to make sure that there's an attentive adult buffering them, making sure they're being reassured. i don't think our culture has done enough to address the fact that school is where a lot of kids get their adult attention and care because parents have to work. parents are preoccupied. parents have other things to do. more and more parents are extremely stressed out because they can't pay the bills. i mean, i think that's the bottom line of this story. that more and more parents are extremely stressed out and that stress gets conveyed to

children. so school is just a buffering zone for kids. and when there is no school, like there are no eyes on too many kids and that is a national tragedy and i don't think that as a culture we have talked enough about how to care for kids if there's no school. you know, parents have to make money and this is bringing home the reality that like we use school to keep eyes on children. and, you know, there are too many homeless children. there are too many children who don't have enough to eat. there are too many children who are suffering and without school, there isn't a structure to support them. and that is not okay. >> yeah. and gillian, the impact of isolation on the developing brain, not just as lisa miller's reporting bearing out, amplifies

existing problems. i think i know from personal experience it's bringing up new problems in kids that didn't have those specific problems. whether it's anxiety or depression, loneliness, which is serious. but also, 24/7 screen time or time on phones. i think it's going to be a while before we figure out the impact of this. >> yeah. i think -- you know, i think we just don't know. we have now taken screen time which we're already concerned about the amount of screen time that, you know, adolescents and even middle school kids have and certainly younger kids around watching tv and we just doubled or tripled it by putting the school online. not only is the ipad, you know, for younger kids, sometimes you're the baby-sitter which is the best you can do. you know, you go to your meetings and get your stuff done, but now it's become everything.

a social outlet, your educational tool. you know, i think even, you know, for adults they're finding the level of screen time exhausting. you know, i can only imagine the impact it's having on kids. you know, certainly for me i know early on in the pandemic, as ipad use increased in my house with my kids i started to really see the impact. there was just more reactivity, less ability to concentrate on things like books. it came to meeting that stimulation and being addicted to that. you know, i think we don't know and we have to do the best that we can. you know, this is our reality right now. we have to deal with what we have in front of us. there's going to be more screen time. you know, we have to be mindful. certainly for adolescents, you know, social media as mixed as it is, this is the way that the kids are connecting with each other. they're isolated, now it's been

really the only -- you know, the only social interaction for many, many kids. >> lisa miller and gillian galin. the new piece is in "new york" magazine, children of quarantine, and dr. dr. galin, thank you as always. ahead, biden won georgia and then he won it again and he'll soon win the state a third time. now that donald trump is asking for yet another recount there. how many times does he want to lose it? we'll take another look at georgia next on "morning joe." how about no no uh uh, no way come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card. ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe." 7:44 at reagan national airport in washington. joining us now lucy mcbath of

georgia. she joined congress after the shooting death of her 17-year-old son davis. she's a gun control advocate and her new book is entitled "standing our ground, a mother's story." congresswoman, great to have you on the show. i wanted to talk about the book in a moment, but first let's talk about the state of georgia. there is so much still going on there. the recount -- the hand recount was finished, certified by the secretary of state there. the republican secretary of state. now it sounds like the trump campaign wants another recount. meanwhile, you have the two runoff elections on january the 5th. all the eyes of the political world are on your state so let's take that recount first. is there actually going to be another recount in your state? >> well, yes, there's going to be another recount, but we know that's -- you know, a legal procedure and we know that georgia actually brought it home for the presidency and no matter what happens, those numbers still stand. and georgia truly is on

everyone's mind. we have done phenomenal work, pretty much since 2016. a major ground swell and registering people to vote. we know that stacey abrams has done phenomenal work in her governship and the grass roots and making sure that all of the persons purged from the voting polls can exercise their right to vote. we know that president-elect biden and vice president elect kamala harris are taking their place in the white house in january. >> yeah. so much of what happens once they are in the white house depends on those two runoff races in your state. if you can get to 50-50 in the senate obviously that changes so much about business in the congress and the business that you do every day. polls show it neck and neck. do you believe that georgians will turn out in those huge numbers that they turned out on

election day where donald trump and joe biden and kamala harris were on the ballot. will they still come out to vote in the runoff in january? >> i truly believe that residents here in georgia will come out to vote because they understand how much is at stake. and they know that we have to finish the job. we've got phenomenal candidates, reverend warnock and ossoff. i know my staff and i will do everything to make sure we're helping to flip the seats and bring it home for georgia. but we have been on track for a very long time here in georgia to make real sustainable change. i have been saying, this is the new south and it represents the demographics and the beautiful mosaic of the people who have come to live here. i truly believe that the momentum is still going and people will definitely come back out and help us turn these seats

blue in future. >> congresswoman, sam stein has a question for you. >> nice to see you. in 2018, two states were deadlocked. it was florida and georgia. both of them tipped towards republicans in 2014 and then 2020, georgia went one way and florida went the other. the key to helping your state to produce democratic gains unlocks not only the electoral success, but policy success. what is the secret to the sauce in political organizing, how do get more people registered? is it demographics or party building or a melding of the two? >> well, you know, georgia's the battleground state. i always said that we were a battleground state and i think we saw so much momentum and excitement in 2016 with secretary clinton and we have been building upon that. actually in 2017 with jon oss f

ossoff's race, and he ran for the seat that i now sit in. it was terrific ground swell and with the organizations on the ground and then with 2018 with stacey abrams, she was able to bring out voters that hadn't voted in decades. so this is what we have continued to do, to show the country that georgia should be on their mind. we are -- we have always said that we are the new south and that we are a global gateway to the south. so the mosaic of all the demographics of the people who are continuing to move here for business, for climate, for, you know, school and work, this is who we are. and we are defining what the southern politics looks like and it's only going to continue to evolve. >> congresswoman, yamiche alcindor has a question for you. yamiche? >> good morning. your entrance into politics of course is tied to the death of

your -- the tragic death of your son jordan. that's where i first met you and when i think of democrats here in this election saying that in might have been too much of a focus on police reform, on gun is the central part of your advocacy. what do you make of that talk and is there a place to talk to activists who maybe believe in defunding the police, but also believe in reforming the police? what do you make of that debate that's going on? >> well, you know, this is a big tent party, and there are a lot of policy issues that the democratic party has always believed in and always wanted to move forward on behalf of all of our constituents because there is so much at stake, and, you know, i continue to work as best as i possibly can on behalf of my district, but, of course, gun reform, gun safety is part of the reason that i ran.

no bun one in my district wants be me. i talk to mothers all the time that are afraid they will send their children off to school and one day they are not going to come home. i have peacefully marched in peaceful rallies with law enforcement here in my own district, local chief of police and elected officials and clergy because the policies that we are looking towards creating some really dynamic change in what's important to people not only within my district, but all around the nation. and so we need to make sure that we are addressing all of these policies so that democracy works for every single one of us. >> the book is "standing our ground, a mother's story." congresswoman lucy mcbath, we know the pain of losing a child never goes away, but you have been so strong and powerful talking about it and using that pain for good. thanks for being here this morning. >> thank you so much. and happy thanksgiving. >> same to you. mika. >> thank you so much. you know, joe's new book

officially publishes today, and he has a new piece in "the washington post" this morning entitled "what joe biden can learn from harry truman." joe writes this. in presidential transition has been as dangerous as the one donald trump has been putting americans through this month. with the possible exception of franklin d. roosevelt's deplorable treatment of his own vice president. harry s. truman. throughout the 1944 campaign, both roosevelt and truman knew fdr was a dying man. the sitting president instructed truman to avoid airplanes because, quote, one of us needs to stay alive. after the pair was elected in an electoral landslide, a friend told truman that he would soon be president. i am afraid you're right, the newly elected vice president replied, and it scares the hell out of me. truman had good reason to be concerned. just a dozen years earlier, he

had been a lowly county bureaucrat in missouri, concerned with little more than road building and handling payroll. and still roosevelt kept the momentous development of the atomic bomb secret from him. only after his first cabinet meeting as president when henry stimpson asked for a word in private did truman learn of what he would later call the development of a new explosive of almost unbelievable destructive power. despite roosevelt's recklessness, the new president guided the world to victory and would construct a post-war foreign policy that ushered in the american century while checking joseph stalin's designs on western europe. truman's dramatic break from 150 years of isolationism inspired by george washington's farewell

address guaranteed america's victory in its long gtwilight struggle against communism. truman's cumulative record is nothing short of astonishing. in a few short years, the 33rd president would champion the truman doctrine, the marshall plan, nato, and a visionary foreign policy that would define the united states' role on the world stage for 70 years. that bipartisan approach would run uninterrupted through 12 presidents until trump's reckless and irresponsible presidency. like truman, joe biden enters the white house facing a world in crisis. the global coronavirus pandemic is racing across america's heartland. a generation of economic growth stands at risk. democracy is in retreat and china's rise has created a

bipolar rivalry much like the one truman inherited. biden should look to truman and his example as he seeks to navigate numerous crises abroad while dealing with a divided government at home. unlike his predecessor, who surrounded himself with former caddies and ideological cranks, biden should see to it that his administration is run by the best and the brightest minds that the united states has to offer. so far, his early white house and cabinet choices have been promising. for five years, trump and british brexiteers heaped contempt upon experts and their repeated political failures to show the high cost of their ignorance. truman's administration, by comparison, was filled with what historians, walter isaacson and evan thomas, called the wise men. general george c. marshall organized the allies' victory in

world war ii. d and a half son was the architect of the revolution rn foreign policy. george kennon was the diplomat who first warned of soviet designs on world domination, and w. avril harimann was truman's ambassador to the ussr. like the rest of his foreign policy team, harimann was unique by suited for his assignment having first visited russia in 1899 when nicholas ii was czar. truman surrounded himself with gifted diplomats and advisors. biden should do the same. biden should also follow the example of the man from missouri by striving to conduct a bipartisan foreign policy. as challenging as that task may be in 2020, it was no easier bringing democrats and republicans together in 1947. republicans had just regained majorities in the house and

senate for the first time since herbert hoover was president and they remained committed isolationists, having regressed into a fortress america stance after the great war. then as later the senate would prove to be an impregnable citadel of isolationism. through patience and a stubborn persistence, truman moved the united states beyond the destructive policy that had facilitated the rise of hitler and led to yet another world war in 1939. like joe biden, harry truman spent much of his career being underestimated by elitists. a prominent historian and journalist described truman as a strange little man. "the new york times" dismissed him as a rube. "time" called fdr's 1944 selection for vice president the

mousy little man from missouri. others mocked roosevelt's pick as the second missouri compromise. even after he was president, the slights continued. following truman's eight years in the white house, he returned to independence, missouri, with the lowest approval rating of any president. it would take historians a generation to grasp what winston churchill understood of truman in his time. you, more than any other man, have saved western civilization. let us hope the man from missouri's extraordinary life can provide guidance and inspiration to our next president as he leads america through what will certainly be four eventful years. and still ahead, after weeks of delay, president-elect biden's team will finally begin the formal transition process, although president trump still

insists he will never concede. "morning joe" is back in a moment. "morning joe" is back in a moment ♪ you can count on me ♪ i'll be home for christmas ♪ if only in my dreams ♪ good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, november 24th. along with joe, willie and me, we have white house reporter for "the associated press" jonathan lemire, nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early" kasie hunt back with us, and joe, it's book day for you. happy book day.

we will get to that in a moment. first, a lot happened yesterday to clear the way for the trump administration to actually recognize joe biden as the president-elect. let's go through how things played out. it started with the state of michigan's top election board voting yesterday to certify president-elect biden's win over president trump with margin of 154,000 votes. three out of four board members voted to certify the election volts. the other gop board member withheld his vote. last week president trump welcomed two other republican state lawmakers from michigan who had been pushing to delay certification in key counties to the white house. in a move that many saw as an attempt to influence the certification process. yes. yesterday, michigan's secretary of state tweeted in part, quote, democracy has prevailed. the election was fair and secure

and the results accurately reflect the will of the people. and with that, though the president himself is not conceding, the trump administration has finally cleared the way for the biden transition. the head of the general services administration informed the president-elect yesterday that he had been approved as the apparent winner of the election unlocking federal funds for his transition and allowing him to coordinate with federal agencies even more urgent amid the coronavirus pandemic. in a letter to president-elect biden, gsa administrator emily murray wrote know that i came to my decision independently based on the law and available facts. i was never directly or indirectly pressured by any executive branch official, including those who work at the white house or gsa with regard

to the substance or timing of my decision. in a tweet moments after her decision, president trump insisted it was his recommendation to move forward with the transition, but, he added, our case strongly continues. we will keep up the good fight and i believe we will prevail. the president also tweeted late last night that he will, quote, never concede and that his legal challenges will continue. multiple sources tell "the new york times" that in recent days top aides, including white house chief of staff mark meadows, white house council pat cipollone and the president's personal attorney jay cycsekulo told him the transition needs to begins. the president continued to solicit advice from rudy giuliani, who told the president that his legal options had not yet been exhausted. "the washington post" reports the president was angry about

the pressure in his top aides, coat, he called political advisors monday to say he had doubts about the gsa initiating the transition to inquire about whether he could block certification of the michigan results and to express reluctance to travel to georgia to campaign for the two republican senators facing runoff elections. despite trump's resistance, "the post" reports that officials throughout the administration planned to coordinate directly with counterparts on the biden team starting today. willie. >> and another piece of this, mika, prior to the gsa recognizing biden's win, a growing number of republicans now voicing support for the transition process to begin. senator bill cassidy, republican of louisiana, tweeted last night, after the gsa ascertained the election, quote, i voted for president trump, but joe biden won. the transition should begin for the sake of the country. senator john cornyn of texas said yesterday the outcome of

the election is, quote, becoming increasingly clear and that evidence of a systemic problem seems to be wanting. another republican wrote an op-ed in the "cincinnati enquirer" yesterday calling for the president's election challenges to wrap up adding it is in the national interest that the transition is seamless and america is ready on day one of a new administration. senator shelley capito said the window is rapidly closing and that biden's transition team should begin receiving briefings to facilitate a smooth transfer of power. and senator lamar alexander of tennessee said, quote, my hope is that president trump will take pride in his considerable accomplishments, put the country first, and have a prompt and orderly transition to help the new administration succeed. when you are in public life, people remember the last thing you do. also contributing to the pressure were more than 160 top

american executives, business world calling on the trump administration to acknowledge the president's defeat, concerned that trump's stall tackics are hurting the country. they asked that the administration immediately begin the transition to joe biden. executives executives who signed included thoser those at top of companies like mastercard, visa, metlife, the carlyle group, "conde nast," goldman sachs and black rocks. separately, one of the trump's supporters blackstone, steven schwartzman said in a statement to nbc news, the outcome is very certain today and the country should move on. so this morning we are three weeks past election day now. donald trump and his small team now of lawyers, that gets smaller by the day, throwing out the garbage, throwing out the sewage, trying to cast doubt on the election. but yesterday felt like a moving day where you saw republicans,

business leaders, and in a more official capacity the gsa say it is time to move on. >> right. even fox new primetime hosts saying it's time to move on. i thought yesterday there were a few things that happened, obviously. the certification of the vote in michigan. also, earlier in the day seeing the statement from steven schwartzman, one of the president's biggest supporters. we have always said it here, follow the money. schwartzman, i am not claiming schwartzman has any connection with trump financially, but if you want to know who donald trump respects, it's people with money. and we thought that was, when we read it yesterday, mika and i thought that was a shot across the bough that was going to move him. jonathan lemire, you you go to the michigan-certification where one republican voted to do his job and certify the vote, and

pretty much guaranteed that, you know, at least for another presidential election, we just might follow the constitution of the united states of america and left the president backed further into a corner. >> that's right, joe. the pressure obviously had been building here immensely on the white house for weeks, particularly in recent days, as more and more of their court challenges were not just defeated and in humiliating fashion. the final pieces as people close to the president towld me, growing voices from business leaders, republicans, saying it was time to move on. the white house put so much hope in michigan. some of these republican officials were at the white house the end of the last week in an attempt to try it change their mind. that didn't work. then we have, of course, the gsa. emily murphy finally giving the okay to the ascertain.

of this transition. it should be noted is she did so in a letter which largely condemned the media coverage of her self and she never uses the phrase president-elect in order to describe joe biden. also within the president's inner circle, the last couple of days two distinct things happened. pat cipollone and mark meadows suggest inside a series of meetings that it was indeed time to start cooperating with the transition, that he never had to say that he was going to concede, and that he could, in fact, still fight some of -- with these legal challenges, but they have to give the okay that the behind-the-scenes work begin. also, the president as we reported today again growing angry and frustrated with rudy giuliani, who he is indeed still talking to, but told people around him in recent days he felt like giuliani oversold his legal case, that he was -- the president was humiliated by watching giuliani on stage last week in that news conference with the hair dye, streaking

down his face. and equally as upset when a conservative pennsylvania judge tossed out with prejudice the trump legal team's case over the weekend, closing that avenue as well. and he recognized that there was really no hail mary coming here. >> so, jonathan -- >> he was angry at giuliani that he led him down this path. >> can i ask you this? it's interesting. we talked before about giuliani wanting to be secretary of state and the president recognizing four years ago that giuliani lost a step or two. we now have the president of the united states coming to the realization that rudy giuliani led him down a path that had -- that was a dead end, a dead end side road. so now he is feeling humiliated because of that. i find that fascinating because it was really giuliani, when the history books are written, it's giuliani that's going to be

blamed for being largely responsible for prodding and pushing donald trump into doing things in ukraine that led to his impeachment. he certainly must understand that but for giuliani, he wouldn't have been impeached. but for giuliani's flying around to ukraine back and forth, giving him false information, that that, i mean, certainly advisors around donald trump, much of the blame is pinned on rudy giuliani for impeachment. same here. you wonder how many times can donald trump listen to rudy giuliani's advice? >> the thing that trump cherishes and prizes among the aides is the willingness to go on tv to defend him. that's what people have said over the years. giuliani does do that. he did so in 2016. he did so most notably during the russia probe, during the mueller case. people close to the president

say that, yes, trump has awareness that giuliani led him astray during ukraine, but that is still to this point overshadowed by the sense from the president that giuliani did him some good in the russia probe, that he was able with his fog machine to drive, to confuse the issues and deliver attacks on mueller that seemed to temporarily undermine the special counsel's credibility. so to this point the president was willing to keep him in the orbit. we saw of course the role that giuliani played in the stretch run of this campaign pedaling baseless conspiracy theories about joe biden and his son hunter. he is not quite willing to cut him free yet, but frustrated with recent days. a final point. what we saw yesterday, that tweet, we should not expect a full-fledged concession from this president even as he agrees to go along with the trangs. transition. that that. still ahead, senate republicans aren't depending on the president for much these

days except, perhaps, for those twin senate races in georgia. kasie hunt has the latest on that dynamic next on "morning joe." that dynamic next on "morning joe. - [announcer] welcome to intelligent indoor grilling with the ninja foodi smart xl grill. just pick your protein, select your doneness, and let the grill monitor your food. it also turns into an air fryer. bring outdoor grilling flavors indoors with the grill that grills for you. we made usaa insurance for veterans like martin. when a hailstorm hit, he needed his insurance to get it done right, right away. usaa. what you're made of, we're made for. usaa no uh uh, no way come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card. plus have high blood pressure.

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with internet essentials from comcast. when you're connected, you're ready for anything. surprises on the republican side yesterday. how many republicans are finally saying what they are saying quietly outloud? >> well, there is still a handful that are officially saying president-elect, but willie ticked through the list of those who came around and said, okay, we got to start this transition. and the one that i was the most noteworthy senator rob portman who yesterday morning not too long after we got off the air yesterday wrote an op-ed for his hometown paper and basically said it is time. this is likely how this is going to go. you have -- and he said a deadline of december 8th, which

is a technical deadline related to how the electoral college works. it's the deadline when states have to say this is where their electors are going for donald trump to do this. now, we obviously since then have seen the gsa take this action and certify. but port man is a member of the establishment. he doesn't really break with leadership very much. after that we saw some more rank and file members, bill cassidy, who tweeted that out. you notice they all seem to have basically the same message. they are saying i voted for donald trump, i think he would have been a better president, but joe biden won the election. so that's clearly the message that mitch mcconnell has advised his team to -- his conference to come out and say to cry to avoid angering the current president. there is reports that the president is complaining about going to georgia to help win the senate majority. this relationship is extremely fraught. you look at what the business community was saying, that's a

critically important piece of this. it's an untenable position. and biden's team, they were smart in how they put, you know, public pressure on this by announcing their national security team. and that means reporters like me and others on the hill are going to go to the republican senators and say are you planning to vote in favor of anthony blinken as secretary of state? if you are marco rubio or john cornyn or these other senators, how do you answer that question with a straight face if you are not willing to say i don't think he hassan be been elected presi. everybody knows that joe biden won the election. we are finally, yesterday, you know, i told you, joe, that i wasn't sure when this would happen. it seems like yesterday was the dam breaking here. >> coming up, a running list of president-elect joe biden's cabinet picks. our next guest says it's among the most experienced group of leaders he can remember. admiral james testify reatis

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first look now at the president-elect's newest cabinet

members. later today the team, which includes obama administration alums, will assemble in delaware for an official announcement this afternoon. antony blinken will serve as secretary of state. he previously served as deputy secretary of state and deputy national security advisor. alejandro mayorkas will be the first latino and the first immigrant to become homeland security secretary. he served as deputy homeland security and director of director of citizenship and immigration services. avril haines will become the first woman to hold the role of director of national intelligence. she previously served as a national security lawyer and deputy cia director. jake sullivan will become national security advisor. he was biden's national security advisor and a top aide to hillary clinton while she was secretary of state. linda thomas-greenfield will be

named u.s. ambassador to the u.n. and former secretary of state john kerry will be the climate envoy. and former federal reserve chair janet yellen will be the first woman ever to become treasury secretary if she is confirmed by the senate. what an impressive list. let's bring in former nato supreme allied commander retired four-star navy add mir james stavridis. chiefage list for msnbc news and nbc. >> admiral, some of president-elect biden's foreign policy selections, "the wall street journal" opinion page said they were internationalists, but also said, on the other hand, talking about blinken and jake sullivan, they were also more hawkish on some of obama administration era debates. mr. blinken favored the iraq war

in 2002 and intervention in libya. mr. blinken was known for repeating the mantra superpowers don't bluff recording mr. obama's red line fiasco about the use of chemical weapons in syria. i would take it, like me, you agree. superpowers don't bluff. you don't draw a red line and step back from it. apparently, that's what our new secretary of state believes as well. >> well, let's start with the team itself. step back for a minute, joe, and this is the most experienced group coming in that i can remember certainly going back to bush one, and before that maybe to the kennedy administration. if you listen to the titles that mika just read off, deputy to this, deputy to that, deputy to this, these are now people who are it stepping up to cabinet level. they are experienced. they are well prepared. boy, how refreshing is that?

number two, and maybe more importantly, joe, this is a very collegial team. i will give you a sports analogy. this one's for mike barnicle. this is like the 1980s celtics basketball team. they don't care who the high scorer is. they are more interested in getting assists than running up the score. and they are out there on the field trying to make each other a look good. it's that kind of group. i worked with all of them when i was supreme allied commander and they were in all their jobs. finally, you are absolutely right. this is an internationalist group. a little bit of a hawkish edge to it, but i think that's okay when it's tempered as you see from this group by that instinctive desire to reach out into the international world. they will look for allies. they will look for coalitions. they will look to work with international organizations. i think this is a fine selection and will serve the nation well. >> admiral, i don't want to put

you in a bad position here, but we have michelle flor nori and jeh johnson being mentioned. what are your thoughts on both of those? >> two folks i know. jeh was the general down in the department of defense, the legal officer for the largest enterprise in the world. michelle was the undersecretary for policy, think chief operations officer at the pentagon. they are two peas in a pod in the sense that they fit the mold here. they are deeply experienced. they are thoughtful, internationally oriented. it's a can't go wrong moment. let's also recall that jeh johnson is a terrific legal mind. you could see him over at the department of justice, for example. >> admiral, you used the collegial, the word competence has been thrown around, qualified to look at this group of people that we had on the

screen a minute ago. that doesn't obviously dig into policy debates, but what is that signal at least to the world as a contrast to the last four years when you look at a group of qualified, competent, collegial people? >> to do not be a starker contrast. it gets to that point of experience. they are not only experienced in running the government in the interagency process, which is so crucial, and there i think jake sullivan is the leader of the band, is the perfect choice. by the way, he was a finalist to be the dean at the fletcher school of law and diplomacy where i was dean. i am so glad he didn't take that job and is in the one he is going to. they are going to be able to pick up the phone and call people they know in paris, in berlin, in tokyo, in saigon. they know everybody around the circuit. huge positive effects for the

united states of america internationally as well as, i think it's going to be a very seamless, selfless group in washington. >> admiral james stavridis, thank you so much for being on this morning. and coming up, we will talk about another president who has faced serious challenges on the world stage. harry truman and what joe calls the fight for western civilization. joe's new book is out today and we've got a special panel lined up to talk about it next on "morning joe." ♪

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joining us now co-founder and ceo of team rubicon jake wood. team rubicon is a non-profit organization that using the skills of military veterans to deploy disaster response teams around the world. jake is the author of the new book "once a warrior" how one

veteran found a new mission closer to home. so good to see you, my friend. congratulations on the book. i have been involved with team rubicon for a long time, so i know it inside and out. explain a little bit about how it was born because it's not an overstatement now to say a decade later it has become a global movement. >> yeah, well, thanks for that, willie. team rubicon was born after the '80 earthquake out of a desire to helpful i had served tours in iraq and afghanistan. when i saw the devastation unfolding i felt compelled to help. what's amazing in the decades since over 100,000 volunteers across the united states have raised their hand to assist communities following disasters, really, you know, our goal is to tap into those skills and experiences this they gained from their military service to do it. it's powerful to see how impactful that can be. >> it's amazing. you talk to people who lived in the new york area during superstorm sandy and they tell

stories of seeing a group of men and women coming over the hill with gray t-shirts on wondering who they were and showing up at the door and saying, how can we help? what were the first few missions like and how did you rally your fellow veterans and help them find purpose as well? >> for the first couple of years we were trying to find our way. the success of team rubicon was often in doubt. we were committed to our vision. we knew we could build an amazing organization that tapped into the unique talents of military veterans. not just their talents, but passion. these are men and women who have service in their hearts. they show up in these moments, the darkest hours for the survivors of these storms and they deliver one of life's most essential virtues, hope. that's a really powerful tonic for american communities today when so often regardless of natural disasters, they are in seven of hope. >> jake, mike barnicle has a question for you.

>> jake, let's talk about the marriage of veterans and big business in terms of employment. in this country, a lot of businesses justifiably take pride in hiring veterans. a lot of them are tenants, captains, just retired from the military. the people you work with, the ncos, the lance corporals, the qu squad leaders, they have tremendous leadership tools. how can this country, busineig business specifically or any business in this country employ, recruit, and hire people like that? even at the squad level, the platoon level who really have leadership tools that very few companies have. >> well, as a former marine corps sergeant and squad leader, i appreciate the question. i think that this is often an overlooked demographic. these are men and women who have had an inordinate amount of leadership experience at a young age. these are people who have led

teams in really challenging environments, you know, mission success was not an option. they had to succeed with limited information, limited resources in some of the most austere environments imaginable. 2020 has revealed how important it is for organizations to have those types of teammates on their teams rns t, the people w bring resilience and adaptable. that's the type of flexibility we bring into the disaster zone. it's applicable in any organization, any sector in the industry. >> you know, jake, i am curious, when you rotated out of the marine corps, what was the most difficult aspect of taking off the uniform and seeking employment or putting together project rubicon? what was most difficult for you? >> that's a great question. for me it was trying to come to the conclusion whether that chapter of my life was closed. by that chapter i mean serving my country or serving something bigger than myself. i think my decision to get out of the marine corps, and i talk

about it in the book, was i came to the realization that i didn't want war to define my life. service was still a big part of me. so i was, as i was leaving the marine corps, i was struggling with the concept that that chapter was finished. i think that's what we have tapped into at team rubicon, this ability to reinspire these men and women to continue their service within a new capacity in a new uniform. >> you talk about giving purpose to your fellow veterans and the mission continuing for them in service. you write in the book about clay hunt. you were the best man at his wedding. you served alongside him. for our audience, who is clay and why was he so important to you and the story? >> he was a marine i served with in iraq and afghanistan. we were sniper partners together in sniper school. clay was an amazing human being, great american. he was one of the first marines, first buddies i called to go to hurricane eta wi haiti with me. about a year after haiti, two

years after he got out of the marine corps, he took his own life, tragically joining the astonishing number of veterans each day that are killing themselves. and clay, for me, i think forced a reckoning where i had to, in the aftermath of his death, come to the conclusion what i did want my -- what i did want to define my life. on the one hand, a year prior i determined that i didn't want war to define it. on the other hand, after clay's death i think i realized i still wanted service to be a major part of who i was and what i did for a living. and it was in that moment that i recommitted to building team rubicon alongside my co-founders in that early team. >> you are certainly, jake, doing your part to help veterans find purpose. how do we do better as a country? you talked about the suicide statistics. there are is stks on unemployment and homelessness as well. how does the country do better looking after all of these people who have given us so much? >> yeah, i think this is really a battle for the narrative.

i think that at this point in time a lot of folks want to treat veterans like charity cases, treat lithem like broken shells of their former selves. certainly some men and women are womaning ba coming back with tragic wounds. the vast majority of men and women are coming back stronger, more resilient and capable of leading this country at a time when this country is seeking desperately for new leaders. and so i think we need to turn to this generation of military veterans and ask them to rise to the challenge of stitching back to the our communities and solving our most complex problems. >> there is no better leader for that month than you. it's "once a warriors" how a veteran found a new mission closer to home. jake wood, thank you for your service. thank you for all you have given this country and congratulations on the book. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." k with more "morning joe." shark iq robot deep cleans and empties itself into a base

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during the past year, we have made notable progress in strengthening the foundations of peace and freedom abroad and at home. we have taken important steps in curing is the north atlantic community against aggression. we have continued our successful support of european recovery. we have returned to our established policy of expanding international trade to

reciprocal agreement. we have strengthened our support of the united nations. while great problems still confront us, the greatest danger has receded. the possibility which faced us three years ago that most of europe and the mediterranean area might collapse under totalitarian pressure. today the free peoples of the world have new vigor and new hope for the cause of peace. >> that was president harry truman's state of the union speech in 1950 detailing how the united states laid the foundations of the post-world war ii order. it's something joe hones in on in his new book which is out today entitled "saving freedom: truman, the cold war, and the fight for western civilization." and joining us now to discuss truman's influence and impact on today's international system, president of the council on foreign relations richard haass

and u.s. national editor at the "financial times" ed luse. truman was underestimated and derided. talk about how that happened in your own family. your mom could be a bit device i have at times. >> that's one way to put it. it's so interesting. we talk about how the press barons of manhattan and the washington insiders looked down on harry truman. harry truman also had difficulty with americans. obviously, when he left the white house, he had a 22% approval rating. my family were dyed in the wool democrats, yellow dog democrats as we call them in the south, from dalton, georgia, and worshiped fdr. my mom was born in really the heart of the great depression in 1932, and they would not have survived without fdr, without the new deal. i remember asking her later, when i became a truman fan, what

they thought of harry truman, because, you know, here is a guy, here is a country guy, a farmer, a baptist and a democrat just like them. my mom laughed and said, well, you know, ole harry, i don't think he was up to the task. >> no! >> a simple country guy. and again that's a democrat and a baptist in a group of farmers talking that way about harry truman. but richard haass, for me, one of the most extraordinary things is how he was underestimated in his own time and even for 20, 30 years later it wasn't until maybe the mid '80s, if i'm remembering correctly, that historians start today take a second look at look at truman and saying he was a near great or a great president. it's extraordinary what this man from missouri accomplished in two or three years. >> that's exactly right, joe. he wasn't a national figure when he got chosen as vice president.

he then became president early on, given fdr's death. and at the time almost like rodney dangerfield, he didn't get a whole lot of respect. as every decade bose on he is seen as one of the great foreign policy presidents in history. i would argue the greatest of the post-world war ii presidents when it came to foreign policy. my question for you is going back to mark twain, that history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes. what rhyming do you see betweha truman what he did and the rest of the post-world war ii order, what if any rhyming do you see between that and today? >> i see a lot. first of all, 12 presidents between harry truman and barack obama followed this same international analytical construct. every president that strode around the world stage, they

were walking around on a stage where harry truman, george marble, dnatchison, they built the architecture and structure of that stage. we have moved away from that the past four years where we have had a president contemptuous of our nato allies, a president very engaging and most of us would say overly warm in a concerning sort of way towards russia's leader, ex-kgb at, and has in the respected the national order that benefitted america. so joe biden is going to have that task to rebuild those relationships. i think he is going to be able to do that. i think also you had harry truman in 1945 after he took over had a lot of challenges with a country coming back from war, uncertain future. joe biden is facing -- you know, it wasn't really facing the war

that harry truman had to end in 1945, but he is fighting a battle against a pandemic that right now is raging across middle america. we have an uncertain economy. we now, of course, have some people on wall street wall stre expecting the first quarter of 2021 to take a dip. so there's an uncertain economic future as well. and we are once again, richard, and i know you'll appreciate this, we're once again in a bipolar world. over the past several years, we have all talked about moving from a bipolar world to a tripolar world to a multipolar world. you and i have spoken about this time and again. we're in a bipolar world. it's the united states, and it's china, and we can demagogue the issue all we want, but wouldn't you say that one of harry truman's great challenges is balancing our relationship with china and figuring out how to engage while taking a tough line. just like avril hareman did with

the soviet union. >> i'd think with joe biden it's more complicated because the soviet union and communism were a political, military, logical challenge. chinaa is all that but also an economic challenge. if anything, the biden situation is more complicated there, and it might also be more complicated because of issues like infectious disease and climate change, about this whole overlay of global issues. but i want -- you mentioned an interesting thing which is, truman succeeded in part because he gave them hell. and he, you know, he got republicans to support what he wanted to do with the marshall plan and other things by talking about communism and in some ways raising the spector of the real threat we face. is bipartisanship, do you believe, resurrectable in foreign policy? you know the republican party better than anybody. >> it certainly is. again, as you know, washington

and the debate begins and ends at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. and we are moving from a president who was contemptuous of congress and actually barack obama before that, a president who wasn't comfortable negotiating with the republicans, even though he tried in fits and starts. to a president who has been dealing with republicans for the past 30 or 40 years. i always joked with bill clinton, you can impeach him on tuesday and he'd invite you to go golfing on wednesday because that's what he had to do in the arkansas state legislature. joe biden understands this. and for everybody that says it's not -- it's going to be too hard to deal with mitch mcconnell, too hard to deal with republicans, they just need to look back to history. harry truman, when he moved forward on the truman doctrine, moved forward on nato, moved forward on the marshall plan, he was dealing with a republican party who had been in the minority since herbert hoover left the white house.

and fdr was not a gracious president when it came to sharing power with republicans. they've been in the wilderness. they won the 1946 midterms. so in january of 1947, when truman had to make the moves that he had to make, he did so with a republican congress. an isolationist congress. so he had to do it. ed luce had to do it the old-fashioned way. he had to work, day in, day out, bringing republicans in. making them his partners, explaining why this was important to him. yesterday walter isaacson was explaining to us the history behind how his staff members would leave the white house and they would drive to chairman vandenberg's home. the michigan -- he's the chairman of the foreign affairs committee, and they would update him every night over drinks about what was happening in the white house and then get his input. it was bipartisanship because harry truman knew he had to confront the soviets, and he couldn't do it without an equal

partnership with republicans. >> fascinating to me the role that arthur vandenberg played. as you state very, very well in your book, you have got a robert taft republican party for the most part, an isolationist one, skeptical of american engagement in the world that opposed america's entry into world war ii right up until pearl harbor. you have this key relationship between truman and vandenberg that creates this bipartisan support for the truman doctrine, as you state very, very well in your book followed by the marshall plan followed by the creation of nato and in each case getting more bipartisan support as it goes on. here's my question to you. it's a bit of a variation on richard's question, but it's an extremely important one. who in trump's republican party

is the arthur vandenberg? is it mitt romney? is it marco rubio? who would play for biden the role that vandenberg played for truman? >> well, if you just look at the committee structure, obviously, it's marco rubio who right now is in arthur vandenberg's place. we'll sfee they cee if they cann agreement. i suspect they may be able to. but you have several republican senators who have already expressed an independence. mitt romney, susan collins, lisa murkowski and there are people like marco rubio who come from a more internationalist wing of the republican party. an internationalist wing that has been silent over the past four years. and that has had to defer time

and again to donald trump. we do look at all of the kowtowing, the president, the commander in chief did toward vladimir putin and russia, but you can find an awful lot of republican senators who spoke out against putin, who spoke out against soviet or russian aggression and, willie, and marco rubio from time to time was one of those republicans that talked about the importance of sanctions and standing up to vladimir putin. >> he did have his moments, and there were a handful of republicans. it will be interesting to see now that donald trump is leaving, if they speak more strongly so as not to cross the president about matters like that. we've talked so much, joe, on this show about how donald trump views these international alliances created in part by harry truman's business transactions. what are we getting out of this. we're paying too much money. germany ought to be paying more. we're getting screwed on this deal as he'd talk ban international alliance.

it goes back to a foundational question. obviously the historical circumstances were different for truman, post-world war ii, dawn of the cold war, but do you think truman still today would see the value if he were air dropped in to 2020 in the u.n., in nato right now? >> oh, my gosh, yes. nato is more important than ever before. and, ed, let's just look to western europe. it's hard for us to understand how the influence that socialism is having. obviously, not just in great britain but socialism and communism in social europe was gaining a foothold across western europe. and certainly in greece. there's fear of that happening in turkey, but also you could look, there are countries on the continent and it was the marshall plan, the truman doctrine that stemmed that tide.

>> yeah, the land lease act of 1940 was described by churchill as the most unsorted act in history. the marshall plan was that times 20. extraordinary in self-interest. hunger leads to radicalism and europe needs to be fed. i think that one of the great books about that period is the dean atchison memoir, present at the creation, which is the sort of best exposition of this framework truman set up. my question for you, joe, is, are we, today, with biden coming in and with all these problems you describe with the pandemic, with the china challenge, with the democracy, the damage to the democratic brand, are we present in a re-creation or is this a

restoration? or is trump sort of conducted so much destruction we've got to sort of go way beyond refurbishing? >> well, i don't think it's a re-creati re-creation. i'm not so sure it's a restoration because we can't look back or move back to where we were ten years ago. he's going to have to borrow from the best examples of not only harry truman but the other presidents in the post war era. but we're going to have to move forward, and he is going to have to have a more nuanced foreign policy towards china. he's going to have to be tough on china in certain areas. obviously, tough on russia as well. but we've got to rebuild our relationships, not just with our friends, but also with our rivals. thank god joe biden has been not only on the domestic political stage but on the world stage for over a generation. we have that going for us. >> ed luce, richard haass, thank

you for much for being on with joe this morning. the book is out today. "saving freedom: truman, the cold war and the fight for western civilization." tomorrow we'll continue these discussions with another fantastic panel. former secretary of state madeleine albright will join us along with presidential historian doris kearns goodwin. tonight, joe will be on "the tonight show" with jimmy fallon. i'll be joining joe for that. he has great virtual events coming up as well. you'll need tickets for these events. all the information is on our website, joe.msnbc.com. congratulations, joe. >> thank you, mika. very nice of you. and very nice of stephanie for tweeting. >> chris jansing picks up the coverage right now. >> congratulations, joe. hello there. i am chris jansing in for stephanie ruhle. it's tuesday, november 24th. here's what's happening.