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good day, everyone, and welcome to msnbc headquarters in new york. there is a new timeline for the distribution of covid-19 vaccines once they are approved for emergency use, and some americans could be getting them before christmas. surgeon general drum adams said its authorization will submit its request on december 10, and some will answer within 24 hours of that request. the surgeon general will reflect on what might have gone wrong with president trump's handling of the pandemic. >> there are many different things we could have done differently. this virus has been challenging.

i wish that, again, this hadn't been superimposed on top of an election. i wish we would have been able to come together as a nation and really talked about the science instead of the politics. >> hmm. well, this comes from new warnings today from dr. anthony fauci on what to expect after the busy thanksgiving travel weekend. >> there almost certainly is going to be an uptick because of what has happened with the travel. we understand the importance of families getting together, and it's just something that we have to deal with that we likely will have an increase in cases as we get into the colder weeks of the winter and as we approach the christmas season. we may see a surge upon a surge. we don't want to frighten people, but that's just the reality. >> and just a short while ago, the president returned to the white house from camp david with his three grandchildren, but he remains fixated on overturning the election result. his campaign team now mulling

their next move after another legal challenge fell apart in pennsylvania. over 26 pro-trump legal challenges have been dismissed by courts nationwide. let's go to carol lee in washington. carol, welcome. let's talk first about the nationwide coronavirus spread and if we're hearing anything from the white house about it. >> reporter: good afternoon, alex. what we're hearing is basically from dr. fauci who was on "meet the press" today saying that we're going to have a surge on top of a surge, as you just heard, but also saying there is going to be additional travel warnings coming for the winter holidays. and when he was asked whether or not president trump would be one of those voices urging americans not to travel during the winter holidays, urging americans to wear masks, dr. fauci said it's possible, but he really doesn't have any power in that regard, so leaving that to be an open question. which is a real contrast when it comes to president-elect joe biden who talks regularly about coronavirus and has really made himself the face of his transition in terms of giving

warnings about a possible surge, taking precautions, wearing masks and things like that. now, president trump did talk about coronavirus briefly during an interview with fox news today, where he said that he didn't want joe biden to get credit for the distribution of the vaccine, that he feels like he deserves credit for there being a vaccine, and that he wants to make sure that he gets that credit. he talked mostly in this interview, alex, about the election, where he made, again, unsubstantiated allegations of fraud in the election and continued to vent frustrations on any host of individuals, but particularly zeroing in on judges after receiving some pretty handy defeats in court, including one where a judge who the president had nominated, said that he failed to produce any evidence in that case in pennsylvania, and so the president venting his frustration about judges and saying that he wants them to

listen to his evidence and that they're somehow not. take a listen. >> well, we're trying to put the evidence in, and the judges won't allow us to do it. we are trying -- we have so much evidence. you probably saw it wednesday of last week. we had a hearing in gettysburg, pennsylvania. it was an incredible hearing, unbelievable witnesses, highly respected people that were truly aggrieved. >> we have to point out that that hearing the president is referring to was not an actual official hearing, it was held in a hotel ballroom in gettysburg. it was just people speaking in microphones saying things that they were alleging were fraud that happened during this election. it was led by the president's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani. but, again, nothing official. no evidence put forward in court so far that any judge has said shows some widespread allegations of fraud, which the president has been alleging now for several weeks. notably, alex, in that interview with fox news, the president also said that regardless of

whether states certify, his cases get thrown out of court, nobody comes by his side and this election is overturned, that he will not change his mind that there was fraud in this election. it doesn't have any bearing of the result but gives you a sense of his mindset. >> thank you, carol lee, outside the white house. appreciate that. thousands of you are traveling home this sunday after thanksgiving. more than 960,000 people passed through u.s. airports just yesterday according totsa, and now they are warning of a new surge in coronavirus cases. the cdc is meeting on thursday to decide which doses wipeople receive the first doses of the vaccine. the first doses are already in the country. a source tells msnbc that united airlines flew with thousands of vaccines in dry ice from canada

last night. all the denver broncos quarterbacks have apparently been ruled out of today's game because of close exposure to the coronavirus, so it's unclear if they even can play the game against the saints. it was said that a running back will take the position. we'll see. they have canceled all team activities tomorrow and thursday. now let's head to chicago to talk about the travel there. many travelers opted for a safer route by driving. millions of people were on the road. cori, a big hello to you. what are you hearing from travelers who decided to hit the highways for the holiday? >> reporter: alex, it's kind of a mixed bag. we've seen half and half. everybody has been happy with their decision to drive of the

fact that there are fewer cars on the road. there are 2 million fewer cars on the road. the lanes behind me, normally you will see them full. not bumper to bumper stopped, but fuller. nearly 48 million people drove for thanksgiving, according to the aaa. they changed their trip by things like just eating outdoors with their loved ones. many said they didn't want to change things, including going black friday shopping. listen to what someone told me. >> we were supposed to go earlier this year, but we waited until thanksgiving. >> i would say at this point in time with all the sanitation that we're doing and everything, and especially on airplanes and that, that it would be relatively safe. >> reporter: you know, alex, that gentleman was a bit unique in what he said in that he was comfortable with air travel, because most folks have opted

not to travel. you can tell the numbers significantly down for air travel this year by about 47%. normally about 4.5 million folks travel in the thanksgiving week, down to about 2.5 million. the big problem with that, alex, is as people go home, only half said they planned on quarantining or isolating. doctors do think we'll start to see the effects of folks who are not staying home continuing to have that spread among their community in the next couple weeks. but one little tidbit i do want to add for you, baby boomers did reduce their travel this year by about half. only about 50% of baby boomers hit the road for thanksgiving. alex? >> thank you, cori, we'll see you next hour. let's go to staten island, new york. that's where a field hospital had to open for the first time this spring as the state braces for a post-season surge.

welcome to you. how concerned are the doctors you're talking with about what's heading our way in the next few weeks in the new york city area? >> reporter: alex, they do not mince words. they are extremely concerned about some of the trends they are seeing right now. here outside of the field house, they actually have a state-run testing facility. we just saw a car pull up, here's another one pulling up. they come up and you see national guard members will greet them. everybody is supposed to keep their windows up, and then they can go and drive through, and then we have these tents here. this is where people can drive through and get their testing. it's free, no appointments needed here in staten island. but behind the tents, you see the brick and mortar building, that's a field hospital that was never opened. it's open again. in june they treated about 250

covid patients. opening this week, they have 14 patients and they have a lot of capacity here to accommodate more. of course, they don't want to. but these patients they have in the field hospital are considered non-serious because of how they're set up in this facility. the really urgent cases of covid will go to the main hospital. but this is really indicative of where we're at in staten island. things are worrisome here, only getting worse. the cases right now are higher than they were in the aftermath after july 4th and after labor day. and right now the local leadership is blaming people's behavior here in staten island. they're not wearing masks enough, they're not social distancing enough, and this is really foreboding for where we are in new york city. we have temps getting a lot cooler, and if you think you can come in and just get one of these tests and hang out with your family and be okay, the medical director here says it's not foolproof. let's listen. >> if you think you're going to test negative today and congregate with family members two days from now without a mask

and without social distancing, you have a full sense of security, because you can be negative today and positive tomorrow and not feel sick tomorrow but still be able to spread the disease. >> reporter: so, alex, we can't stress that medical advice enough. here this medical director says they have learned from the beginning of the pandemic, they're not intubating as many patients, putting as many patients on ventilators so they'll have better outcomes. there are also a lot of treatments that have been approved by the fda. but here this field hospital up and running, it's accepting patients, they can accommodate as many as 100 and they can set it up again to accommodate even more, but of course, alex, they don't want to have to do that. >> of course, they don't. thank you for the heads-up on what's happening there, lindsey reiser. doctor of the department of health and a special pathogens

epidemiologist and director of the pathogens program. can you walk us through this meeting set for tuesday? what exactly will be decided and what kind of timeline is there for the next steps from the cdc? >> sure. so the meeting on next tuesday will look at prioritization of the available covid vaccines, and it will determine what are the two primary groups that will receive this. as it stands now, based on a number of discussions we've had in the work group of the covid vaccines and in our previous ac i-team meeting, it looks like it will be health care providers and individuals living in long-term facilities. >> that all makes sense, doctor,

but this group that gets designated is likely to be a lot larger than the vaccine supply that comes. and we have to remind people this is going to be distributed in two doses, two inoculations. so, dr. romero, how do you decide where it goes? do you look at the map of where things are the worst at the time? do you try to shore up something that isn't suffering so badly at the time and then move? how do you decide? >> right, so you are exactly right. we will not have enough vaccines to immunize everybody in the first two subtiers. the states have already identified those sites where they believe the vaccine should be sent. that's one of the things that will be determined again as a final step on friday coming up. the states themselves will determine what groups within those high-risk groups should be immunized and where the vaccine should be distributed initially. some of that decision will be made in part based on the characteristics of the vaccine we're using. if it turns out that the pfizer

vaccine is approved, then issues of ultra cold storage play into the ability to be able to distribute this vaccine, and that will certainly make the decision of which centers or which places will get them first. >> so, doctor, americans are certainly skeptical of a vaccine. you know better than anybody about the anti vaccers. how concerned are you? >> 71% would get the vaccine, and that dropped to 51% in september and the latest in november showing 58%, so we are seeing an increase in people wanting to take the vaccine, but it's not enough. and the pandemic depends on getting people vaccinated and

covered. we have a good vaccine buildout campaign to not only identify these people, but notice that they are part of these priority groups, giving them what they need. there is a lot of hesitancy. people are concerned about the safety, the efficacy and the side effects and all these things we have information on, so making sure we provide the information to the people in a grassroots community-based structure. >> may i ask you about a local issue? mayor bill de blasio just announced today that schools are going to reopen to in-person learning on novembdecember 7th. is this good news from a health perspective? the back and forth of how to keep schools open, whether to close or not, that has been an ongoing, very loud conversation. >> starting off, schools are so important for society, not just for education but so many other reasons. so prioritizing them and

reopening them is certainly something we need to aim for. we want to make sure that along with opening schools we're looking at viral transmission and we are curtailing and putting restrictions on numbers that are driving cases. that transmission is happening also not necessarily in the schools. we need to prioritize keeping schools open and making sure transmission is at a low enough level so we can go in and have hyper local response from keeping these classes from becoming full-on outbreaks. >> dr. madad and jose romero, thank you for your insights. the president's plan to overturn the election. oh, no, look at this. this is taiwan's parliament once again evolving into fist fights and then some, because this time it was all over a plan to allow

u.s. imports of pork. protesters protested the measure, and you know what else? they were throwing pig guts. pig guts. think about that. pig guts. pig guts think about that the calming scent of lavender by downy infusions calm. laundry isn't done until it's done with downy. before we talk about tax-s-audrey's expecting... new? -twins! ♪ we'd be closer to the twins. change in plans. at fidelity, a change in plans is always part of the plan.

another busy week in store for president-elect biden's admission teams. we'll hear what to expect, and apparently, ali, it includes more cabinet picks? >> reporter: it does, more cabinet picks expected this week, alex. we're told by the transition team these might be electronically related. we might hear from joanet yelle, that is president-elect biden's pick for this role, so diversity is really being prioritized here

by this transition team. we're also hearing speculation and jockeying for roles behind the scenes, including for the department of defense. i want to show you a few names we're hearing about, including the top person on this list, former top pentagon official michelle floynoy. we're told she is a likely pick here. it's a name we've been hearing for a while. but we're also hearing about the secretary, one of biden's key priorities, and you can see some of the names there. we know his congressional spanish caucus put out a letter to the biden transition team today asking that they really consider governor michelle grisham of new mexico, but also

names like karen best, when she was in the running to be biden's vice presidential pick, and the head of his covid task force right now, dr. vivek, so a lot of speculation about these roles as we head into another week where we're getting some cabinet picks. it is causing some people to look at this slate of names, people who were selected already and people who could be put into his cabinet. it's making people compare it to a third term of the obama administration, something the biden team has pushed back on in the past, as well as william mcraven this morning. listen. >> i've heard this refrain a lot he here, and i don't agree with that. the facts here may be a concern in terms of a rising and aggressive russia. but this group coming in are

incredibly experienced, incredibly talented. they will approach these issues differently than certainly the trump administration did, and i would offer, somewhat differently than the obama administration. >> reporter: so, alex, we are also hearing this transition come against the backdrop of president donald trump saying in his mind this election is not over yet. we saw him do that really 45-minute-long interview which at times trended more towards being a monologue on fox this morning, the biden team not responding to that, doing as they have over the course of these last few weeks and staying out of the fray of the trump-generated news cycles as they transition into government. alex? >> okay, ali, thank you so much. we'll see you again from delaware. meantime the supreme court in pennsylvania is rejecting the lawsuit over mail-in ballots. this is the first time that trump-appointed judges have defunked his election there.

let's hear what the president had to say today on fox. >> they don't want to take the affidavits, then they say they don't have proof. i wanted to file one suit, donald j. trump, president of the united states, against -- put everything in one simple suit, and they said, sir, you don't have standing. i don't have standing? you mean, as president of the united states, i don't have standing? what kind of a court system is this? >> joining me now is peter baker, msnbc political analyst, chief correspondent of the "new york times" and author of "obama: the call to history" of which i congratulate you, peter, my friend. give us a reaction to the president's comments. >> look, he's still lashing out. he's never going to accept that he lost, but his avenues for protest and challenging this election are basically closed. there hasn't been any lawsuit that has gained any traction, any lawsuits that he has filed have not alleged the things he says. he can say something on fox news, but what they present in

court isn't actually what he's saying. he's talking about ranging conspiracy theories that would involve republicans and democrats, observers and multiple states, and there is no proof of that whatsoever. in fact, his own lawyers don't allege that when they go to court. they allege more narrow things, they don't have any evidence for what they do talk about. so it's just him lashing out, refusing to accept what everybody else basically knows to be the case, which is his presidency is coming to an end on january 20th. >> as we mentioned, nearly all the judges who struck down trump's lawsuit were many appointed by trump himself. how significant is that? >> i think it's really interesting that basically the republicans in washington, the senators in congress are basically indulging the president, trying to sort of keep quiet and even encouraging, to some extent, in their cases that this is a legitimate process to pursue, while

republicans at the state and local level have basically stood up and said, no, there is nothing wrong here. the election was free and fair and we're not going to sit there and go along with these out landish and evidence-free claims. you see it in a city clerk in michigan who got a phone call from the trump campaign asking her to sign a letter that the election she oversaw in her city was somehow tainted, and she refused to go along with it. you saw in these judges, you point out, in pennsylvania and elsewhere who are not only conservative but sometimes appointed by president trump who say, look, this is not how the system works. making allegations doesn't make it so, and the fact you see these republicans in key states stand up in favor of the system, in favor of an election that obviously was conducted freely and fairly, by and large, i think is important. >> but why the difference between republicans on a federal level and republicans on a local or state level? why? >> well, a couple things.

one is the republican at a local and state level is actually responsible for the state elections he's challenging. i think some find it very offensive to be told that the election they oversaw was somehow not fair or somehow corrupted in a fantasy kind of way. the republicans at a national level are focused on the georgia runoff races. you see senator mcconnell, the leader in the senate, not wanting to keep -- wanting to keep trump happy, basically, or at least not alienate him because he's focusing on winning these two races on january 5th, the runoff races in georgia. other republicans don't want to rile him up because he spent four years being intimidated and beaten by a twitter-yielding president who still has a great popularity among republican bases that these senators and congress feel like they need for their own future. >> okay, that last part right there, need for their own future, that may be one thing.

do you get a sense, though, that the republican party on the whole reflects the level of trumpism, for lack of a better word, that we have seen develop in this country and that persists from the president himself, or do you think there is a chance there will be a -- that they will revert to the old school republicanism? or has the republican party become very trumped? >> well, look, obviously it does reflect the current president, no question about it. and even though he has lost and will leave office on january 20th, he will continue to have a loud bullhorn in the form of social media and perhaps some sort of media company, if he ends up doing that. he has obviously a lot of traction among the base republicans who still admire him and still support him strongly. that's different than most defeated presidents. he has a power base you didn't see with george h.w. bush or jimmy carter when they left office. having said that, i think he is a unique individual, and i don't think the rest of the republican

party, at least among the officeholders and candidates, necessarily want to be the next version of trump. they just simply don't want to alienate the people who do like trump. that doesn't mean they'll go back to the way they were, but they also can't emulate him because he did lose this election while many other republicans won. i think trying to keep him at a distance without trying to alienate him has helped because they gained seats in the senate. >> we'll see how they maneuver it all. peter baker, always good to see you. thanks so much for your insights. the incalcable misery and worry rocked by the pandemic may soon become a whole lot worse and it may rise at kitchen tables across this country. tables across this country ♪ you're all, you're all i need ♪

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right now in chicago, nursing home workers are striking and demanding hazard pay as covid cases rise in the

state. it is the sixth straight day of these protests. at this hour there are more than 7800 new cases in illinois. let's go to msnbc's valerie castro who is on south side of chicago there. valerie, welcome. i know you've been talking to these essential workers. is there any indication that demands are going to be met? >> reporter: alex, so far there has been no response from infinity health care management. that is the company that owns 11 long-term care facilities across the state, including the one we're standing in front of. 700 workers from all of those facilities are now on strike, demanding better pay and better protection in the forms of ppe. the employees went on strike about six days ago, though their current contract expired in late may, and they haven't been able to come to any agreement since then. across illinois, there have been about more than 45,000 cases of covid in these long-term care facilities, and about 6,000 deaths, that's according to the state health department. you take that into account,

6,000 deaths is half the total number of deaths across the state. these employees say they want a basic starting wage of $15. they say they also want hazard pay and more ppe. they tell us in some cases they are wearing the same masks for up to a week. they held a rally in federal plaza yesterday in downtown chicago to talk more about their demands. take a listen to what they had to say. >> all we're asking for is 15, and he says that's too much, and we're not worth it. we just want the same thing all other nursing homes have gotten. >> infinity needs to get it together. he got $13.7 million. he needs to give us some of that money. all of that money wasn't meant to go to him. we deserve it and we need it. >> reporter: and that more than $12 million that she is referring to, the workers say that infinity health care management actually received more than $12 million in federal

cares money earlier this year, so they say that money should really be part of their hazard pay. you can see there are a few people protesting here right now. there is a larger rally planned for 2:00 this afternoon where they will be joined by the chicago teachers union and the chicago federation of labor. they say they plan to stand in solidarity with these workers. we have reached out to infinity health care management numerous times for a comment, but have not heard back. alex? >> valerie castro, i know you will continue to press for that comment. appreciate it. a new wave of coronavirus restrictions will go into effect tomorrow across california, and in the last 24 hours, more than 11,000 new cases have been confirmed. let's go to scott cohen. he's there in l.a. how are businesses planning ahead of tomorrow's new restrictions? are they going to survive? >> reporter: well, some of them, frankly, will not, alex. this is lincoln avenue in the

willow bland section of l.a. it's one of the many shopping districts filled with small businesses. now they're dealing with new restrictions in santa clara county with the health officer here saying she is gravely concerned with the level of cases. the new restrictions include leisure and non-essential travel skurjd, indoor retail limited to 10% capacity. the owner of one of the stores said she has switched almost strictly to online sales, which is something she's never done before, but she says she's

facing the worst challenges she's ever faced in 13 years in business. >> there is a bit of a relief that this holiday weekend did go well. i'm hopeful that the rest of the season goes well, but nonetheless, every decision i make is met with a bit of trepidation. i'm not able to just relax and, you know, make business decisions the way i used to before. everything now is just, well, what if it's the wrong thing that i did? >> reporter: so she says it has just been, if nothing else, an emotional roller coaster. she's managed to keep employment roughly in line of where it was, but it is a day-to-day thing for all of these businesses. here in the heart of the silicon valley, a lot more marketing is happening online. the question, alex, is how sustainable is this as the pandemic, this new wave of the pandemic, gets even worse. >> do me a favor. look quickly over your left

shoulder and look at the garden theater behind you. i don't know if that's a movie theater or live performance theater. i can't read the marquee. is it open, or does it have one of those, hey, hope to be back soon messages. >> it says welcome back, willow glen, follow the guidelines and be safe. as near as i can tell, no, they're not showing movies here. this is part of the restrictions here. you know, one of the restrictions is that sporting events can't take place in santa clara county. who plays in santa clara, california? the san francisco 49ers. they had games scheduled this weekend and the following weekend, and they have to figure out where to have games or to even practice. >> by the way, sorry if i gave you a crick in your neck. families are struggling to put food on the table. over 50 million people are expected to experience food

insecurity by the beginning of this year, and that's one in six americans. that's a near 50% increase from last year. that includes one out of every four kids in this country. joining us now, host of msnbc's "what's eating america," andrew zimmerman. andrew, thanks for being here. i know you partner with feeding america. give us a sense of the amount of hungry families. >> thank you, alex, it's great to be with you. the numbers you cited i believe, and many experts believe, are depressed simply because of the stigma associated with hunger, the fact that people are exhausting all other means to feed themselves, like maxing out credit cards and things like that. and there are some families that don't realize that they're food insecure. mom and dad making decisions about just having coffee for breakfast to make sure there is enough eggs for the kids. the studies showed before c-19 we were at about a 20% level of

food insecurity, and i believe that number has now gone up, so starting at 1 in 5 is no way to approach today's numbers where we're calling for 1 in 6. if you look at the latest feeding america study, 40% of those using food banks and other places to get food goods are new users. we've gone from 11 million children in that system pre-covid to now 17 million children in that system. some of the large food banks, you know, obviously they have bigger numbers for us and bigger samplings on studies, so whether it's second harvest land, overall they're predicting a 0

700-person increase. that's astounding. that's more people being laid off, less economy in the country. this isn't a local food problem, this is a national problem, and it's hidden like those tents behind the hospitals. it's hidden. we need a raise in snap, we need food boxes to continue that's scheduled to stop in a few weeks, and we need a new administration to be our food czar and pull our system out of the ad department. i think we need some real serious change to deal with the problems of food in our country. >> given your experience, i nominate you to be that food czar. but let's move on here, because

america a's -- feeding america' ceo was on "face the nation." >> it's true that families with children are far more likely to suffer from food insecurity. there are a lot more things conspiring right now to cause vulnerable communities to really be reeling right now, not only with a health crisis but a food crisis as well. >> i was thinking about mayor de blasio's announcement this morning that on december 7th, they're going to get back to in-person learning and get rid of virtual learning, and part of that supports those school food programs for so many kids that depend on them. talk about the stress for families, with the kids learning at home, not only the learning but not having the kind of nutrients to support learning. >> that's correct. a lot of people find empty calories are cheaper, right, that shopping in the inside center of the supermarket where all the fats and sugars and

carbs as opposed to shopping on the perimeter where the food is far more expensive. we also know that a huge percentage of our population exist in what are called food deserts more than a mile from a grocery store. if you have children at home, especially young children, you, of course, have more mouths to feed but your time is restricted as well. eating in america and eating well and healthily has become a class privilege. pre-covid there were two food americas. i now believe there are three since we dropped our percentage of the population to below the poverty line. it speaks to this crisis we're talking about. we need a universal school lunch program. we provide books and transportation and everything else for kids in our public school system nationally for free. why don't we feed them a healthy, nutritious meal? we have enough food in america.

we have enough fresh food. we have enough meat and vegetables and all of these things. farmers are tilling vegetables under the soil because they don't have the distribution system corrected. it is a national crisis. >> that has been so difficult when you've brought that video of that happening. cornfields being plowed under. you just think there is so many who could use such good nutrition and good, fresh foods. listen, we'll have you back to talk about the restaurants, what they face, because we know some of them just will not survive if, indeed, they're having to close their outdoor dining which they've barely been able to exist on. andrew zimmer, thank you very much. the biggest loss may still be ahead and it could come in a federal courtroom. andrew wasser is joining me next. wasser is joining me next

a new day, a new legal setback over president trump's battle to overturn the election

overnight. the supreme court rejected efforts to invalidate mail-in votes. the president stacking up at least 41 cases that have been filed. more than two dozen have been denied, dismissed, settled or withdrawn. joining me now, andrew weissman, former fbi general counsel and former senior member of the mueller probe. andrew, good to have you back, because even after these setbacks, there are several lawsuits in the campaign right now. do you see any of them being successful? >> the short answer is no. i don't see any of them working out. one thing we're seeing is the courts are a place where facts still matter. that was famously said by amy berman jackson, the judge who sentenced paul manafort, and i think you're seeing that here,

where the president can say what he wants on twitter or rudy giuliani can say what he wants in a press conference, but in a court of law, whether their judge is appointed by democrats or republicans, even judges appointed by donald trump, they are proving that they are an effective guardrail. and it's really nice to see. i was in the justice department for 20 years. i've been a lawyer forever. and it's really nice to see that the courts are actually functioning the way they're supposed to, which is they demand from both sides proof. you can't just make allegations, you have to back it up with evidence. and i think the reason that you're seeing so many courts throw things out is that you have a lot of pontification going on on twitter, but you don't see that in a court of law where there is evidence being

offered. >> as these courts said, and it's even stunning where we have to have a conversation like this where facts may be disputed and not matter. let me go to the president, who as you know will be leaving office in around 50 days or so, and will be vulnerable to any op-ed investigations. asking the big question that's on a lot of people's minds right now, should trump be prosecuted? and you write, as painful as it could be for the country, i believe the next attorney general should investigate mr. trump, and if warranted, prosecute him for federal crimes. why is that? >> great question. let me just say first what the counter argument is. the counter argument is we do not want to turn into a country, a dictatorial or autocratic country, where the rule of law and the department of justice is just an arm of the white house. we have seen the current president of the united states

trying to use the department of justice that way. so it's going to be necessary, if you're going to prosecute a former president, to show people why this is not taking on that particular type of autocratic system. here i think it is warranted if you have sufficient evidence that shows that anybody else in that position would be prosecuted. so, for instance, if there are crimes that the president committed such as substantial tax or bank fraud prior to his becoming president, it certainly shouldn't be the case that just because you become elected you are suddenly wiping the slate clean like a giant etch-a-sketch and you don't have to worry about your prior criminal history. similarly -- go ahead. >> i was going to say, one line you put here, in short, being president should mean you're more accountable, not less, to the rule of law. that's a short summarization to

the broad picture here. >> absolutely. and for america where we really say that the rule of law is what separates us from so many other countries, you can look around the world at other so-called der presidents or even a current leader is being prosecuted. so in israel, netanyahu is under indictment. in france, just last week, sarkozy, the former president, is now facing criminal charges. so it's not unheard of. and for america, it is important that the rule of law show that just because you're president doesn't mean that you are above the law. >> okay. but look, americans went through this in 1974 with richard nixon and you say that the pardoning by gerald ford of richard nixon is not a good analogy here. why not? >> the difference there is that

the president there, president nixon, resigned from office in disgrace. so there was a real and substantial penalty for his conduct. yes, maybe it wasn't going to jail and standing trial, but there still was his resigning in disgrace. here there has been no sanction whatsoever for the president for, for instance, obstructing the special counsel investigation, which we wrote about substantially in volume two of the special counsel report. and if it's shown that he has committed substantial tax or bank fraud violations at the state level, he's not been held to account for that either. so i don't think the nixon analogy really works. by the way, there are many people who think that was the wrong decision by president ford to pardon nixon. >> okay. according to our reporting, joe

biden has told his aides, andrew, that he wants his justice department to function independently from the white house. he's not going to tell federal law enforcement officials whom or what to investigate or not to investigate. what do you make of that? >> i think that's exactly the right thing to do. obviously the president could weigh in on it, but going back to what i said, we don't want to be an autocratic state where the department of justice is viewed as a part of the white house. imagine if we had a white house that told the department of justice who -- what specific people should be targeted and who should not be targeted. we've lived through that for four years where president trump has said you should go after democrats. we've seen him try and say you should not go after my friends, and he provides clemency for michael flynn or for roger stone, friends of his. so that is antithetical to the rule of law. i think that president-elect biden is sending a very strong

message that he is not going to have that kind of relationship with the department of justice. he wants them to be making their own apolitical decisions based on the merits. >> okay. two questions here and i'm going to put them all together because i have limited time. as someone who's investigated the president, do you think trump is worried, does he have legitimate worry about potential prosecution on the federal level, the state level or even the new york city municipal level when he leaves office, and what do you think the likelihood is that he gets pardoned somehow by someone? i mean he can't pardon himself, right? >> well, i think he's going to try. you know, that has not been decided by the supreme court. i actually -- it's always a dangerous thing to make predictions, but i think that the president is going to try to pardon himself. but just to be clear, that does not affect any state prosecution. you can only pardon for federal crimes. so to answer your question, i

think that there's a reason that the manhattan district attorney's office has been so tenacious in seeking the accounting records from the trump organization and equally for donald trump to have been fighting so hard to not turn those over. so i think that there is a substantial risk to the president that he could face state charges in the manhattan district attorney's office for either tax crimes, bank fraud crimes or both. and those are something he can't pardon himself out of. >> andrew weissmann, good chat. come see me again because clearly we've got a lot of things to still talk about. >> will do. tomorrow's grim anniversary and where the fight for social justice stands after protests around the u.s. and the world. if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis

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good day, everyone. from msnbc world headquarters here in new york, welcome to weekends with alex witt. here's what's happening right now for you. a double blow in president trump's attempts to overturn the election. today wisconsin's dane county certifying its results after a partial recount confirming bidenbiden es's victory in that state. in pennsylvania, the state supreme court throwing out