the phone. and as they plan to see each other more often sean is discovering a whole new life. a whole new future. this sunday, the growing covid crisis. >> covid is out there. you just have to be cautious on how you deal with it. >> with a million people a day taking holiday flights. >> i really want to see my family. my dad is really sick, so it just needed to happen. >> and tens of millions on the road. new fears of a deepening covid pandemic. >> this is clearly a superspreading event, and we can see a surge of cases on top of the current surge in a couple weeks. >> health care workers overworked, understaffed, and frustrated. >> -- without breaking down for an hour, or every hour. >> we have 20 to 30 people probably caring for each one of

these patients every day. that's what's going to run out. >> vaccines are on the way, but how soon? this morning, my interview with dr. anthony fauci. plus, transition politics. president-elect biden starts forming his cabinet. >> it's a team that reflects the fact that america is back. >> even as president trump continues to cite nonexistent fraud. >> it's going to be a very hard thing to concede, because we know there was massive fraud. >> how much is president trump trying to intentionally tie president-elect biden hands in places like iran and afghan sta? i'll talk to the former chair of the joint chiefs, admiral michael mullen, about why a smooth transition is critical to national security. joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt, hugh hewitt, host on the salem radio network, o. kay henderson, news director of the radio iowa network and michael eric dyson of vanderbilt university. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this

is "meet the press with chuck todd." >> a good sunday morning, and i hope you're having a safe and enjoyable thanksgiving day weekend. throughout america's covid crisis, there has belong a parade of grim statistics. among them, as of this morning, there have been more than 13.3 million cases and more than 266,000 deaths in the united states alone with little reason to believe things will improve in the short run. but if there is one statistic that stands out above all others, it is this one -- the united states has 4% of the world's population, and somehow, has 19% of the world's covid deaths. this is hardly what people mean by american exceptionalism. and no amount of presidential tweeting that increased testing is somehow to play can wish away this dubious honor. this weekend, tens of millions ignored pleas from health experts and some government officials to avoid travel, and instead, spend time at home with their immediate families. the result may well be a covid

surge beyond the record numbers we've seen. how did we get here? did we lose faith in our government because our government gave us reason to lose faith in it? was it a decades-long assault on science and objective facts, particularly by some on the right? was it a fractured media environment that invites people to seek alternative facts that fit their personal world view? or are we just fed up, done with months of zoom meetings and closed stores and kids home from school that we've simply had enough, enough that millions feel it's worth taking a big risk to have a brief sense of normalcy? whatever the cause, the results are clear, millions are being infected, hospitals are near their breaking point, and health care workers are the ones paying the price. >> i've been a nurse for 20 years and i've never experienced burnout like this. >> on the front lines, health care workers are exhausted, overwhelmed, and at times, angry at an american public that is only half listening.

>> i hope that the last moments of your life don't look like this, because this is what you'll see at the end of your life if we don't start wearing masks. >> we're understaffed. we have so much on our plates as nurses. >> with coronavirus cases now over 13 million and continuing to climb, up in 44 states in the past two weeks, roughly 90,000 americans are hospitalized, icus are overwhelmed. >> it's not entirely clear to us that we're going to be able to move personnel from cool spots to hotspots because the hotspots are everywhere. >> according to federal data, by the end of the week, 22% of hospitals, nearly 1,400, expect to face a staffing shortage. >> one of the plans in utah is to open up one of our big event centers as a hospital. well, where are the doctors coming from? >> you can't just pick up medical professionals at the grocery store when you're in need of staff. >> in a september survey, nearly

one in four physicians said they know a physician who committed suicide. 58% express feelings of burnout. health care workers are surrounded by dying patients. >> we need to decide to take action in a way -- that was really hard, that was hard. >> and health care workers are sacrificing their own lives. >> so willing to put her life on the line to help others so that they could then help others. it was such a tragedy. >> but while travel on thanksgiving was down from previous years, more than 6 million people flew over the last week. >> are you concerned about the coronavirus surge at all? >> i'm not. i don't know anybody that's got it. >> it doesn't seem like it's getting any better, so i mean, might as well just try to just have a little bit of fun. >> doctors, nurses, all health care frontliners are pretty frustrated and angry. >> people say that covid is a hoax, that masks don't work, that masks are politicized. >> while some elected leaders are showing urgency, others

continue to downplay the virus. >> i think oklahoma should be with their loved ones over thanksgiving. just be safe about it. >> in denver, mayor michael hancock urged residents to stay home. >> i'm asking, i'm urging, i'm pleading with everyone, please stay home. >> then flew to mississippi for thanksgiving. >> he told us we should not be seeing our family and should not be traveling for thanksgiving, and then he goes behind our backs. >> one of the things that we have been struggling with is what we do with our kids if we can't keep them safe. that includes potentially sending them to live with their relative away from us. so, stay home. please? >> in the two days since thanksgiving, there have been 346,000 new confirmed covid cases in the united states and 2,700 deaths. of course, we won't know for a while how bad the surge of cases and deaths due to thanksgiving weekend travel will be. joining me now is dr. anthony fauci, who, of course, is the director of the national institute for allergy and

infectious diseases. dr. fauci, welcome back to "meet the press." i think this other statistic tells the story of november pretty well -- the total number of coronavirus cases in the united states for november surpassed 4 million on saturday. that's double, more than double what we saw in october. what are we staring at in december, considering, i guess, halloween was part of this early surge in november? what should we expect in december, sir? >> well, if you look at the slope of that curve that led to the numbers that you just mentioned, chuck, we're going to be seeing, as we go towards the end now and getting into december, we're seeing the surge with an inflection curve like this. the concern we had as we entered into the thanksgiving holiday and as we're now coming out of the thanksgiving holiday, is that the travel and the people congregating at dinners that you'd expect, we try to get the word out for people, as difficult as it is, to really

not have large gatherings of people, family and friends, but try to keep it confined to the immediate household. but you know, people are not always going to do that. so, what we expect, unfortunately, as we go for the next couple of weeks into december, that we might see a surge superimposed upon that surge we're already in. and you know when i give that message, i don't want to frighten people, except to say, it is not too late at all for us to do something about this, because as we travel back to be careful when we go back to where we are, to just continue to do the things that we've been talking about. an important issue, chuck, is that we know when you mitigate with masks, with distance, with not having crowds or congregate settings, that those states that have done that, you can actually see that the conflection of their curve starts to do this. so we know we can do something about it, particularly now as we get into the colder season and

as we approach the christmas holidays. >> look, it took, what was it? i think it was only about a week before thanksgiving that the cdc came out and advised against travel. are we going to see more dire warnings given about travel, essentially, now, in the next week or two, as we prepare for the end-of-the-year holidays and new year's? >> chuck, i'd have to say honestly, unless something changes dramatically, which i don't see that happening -- because the curves, when you look at the dynamics of an outbreak, you see usually a three, four, five-week period of time before curves start really coming down. so, i think we're going to be faced with another situation, we're going to have to make decisions as a nation, state, city, and family, that we're in a very difficult time, and we're going to have to do the kinds of restrictions of things we would like to have done, particularly in this holiday season, because we're entering into what's really a precarious situation,

because we're in the middle of a steep slope. you know, when i tell what people need to do, we say it over and over again, we know it works, but also that there is, as i mentioned to you before, chuck, there is light at the end of the tunnel, because we will really be seeing vaccines soon. we likely, almost certainly, are going to be vaccinating a portion of the individuals in the first priority before the end of december. and then as we get into january and february and march more and more. so, if we could hang together as a country and do these kinds of things to blunt these surges until we get a substantial proportion of the population vaccinated, we can get through this. there really is light at the end of the tunnel. >> what is your confidence level that various hospital systems are going to hold up right now? i mean, look, the warnings are coming from all over the country. i know you guys see these reports on the task force. i saw one earlier this week, it

was something like one in five health care systems around the country were on the brink of basically being overcapacity -- they were already overcapacity. >> right. >> the next two weeks could make it worse. health care workers themselves, there are not enough of them. are you concerned about failing systems around the country? >> you know, chuck, i have to say that i am, and i am because reality stares you right in the face. just last night, i got a couple of calls from colleagues and associates who were very much involved in different states throughout the country, saying, we're at that point where we soon, if things don't turn around quickly, we're going to have a situation with capacity, not only of hospital capacity, but staff. you know, what do you think we should do? i mean, almost pleading for advice about, you know, what can we do? we don't want to lock down completely, but we might have to if this -- and i'm talking locally. i'm not talking about nationally. i'm talking about individual

locations of people starting to see significant stresses on the hospital and health care delivery system. so again, that's such an even more important reason why we've got to realize that we do have within our capability to be able to blunt that by doing the simple things that we talk about, short of locking down, so we don't precipitate the necessity of locking down. >> is this -- look, i don't mean to -- i don't want to belabor a point about the federal response here that you and i have talked about in the past, but how about getting the president to talk about not traveling over the holidays or getting the president to talk about wearing a mask again, is that possible? >> you know, i don't know. i mean, it certainly is possible, chuck, i mean, but i don't think i have any power in that regard. so, what i'm doing is the best that i can do, you know. and thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to the nation on a national program, to talk about the importance of those kinds of things that can have an impact. >> let's talk about the vaccine. the cdc's going to put out some

protocols on who should get it first. it's pretty clear in the conversation you and i are having, it's health care workers, probably should be priority one and priority two here. what does that look like? how realistic is it to get the nation's leading frontline health care workers vaccinated by the end of january, say? >> well, chuck, i think, certainly, the health care workers are going to be among those. i don't know exactly what the precise final decision is going to be. certainly, health care workers will be up there. there may be others, i don't know. as you know, on tuesday, the advisory committee on immunization practices, either tuesday or wednesday, sometime early next week, will be coming in and meeting with the cdc and making those decisions. but if you look at the number of health care workers, obviously, you're going to have to do it in a graded way. i mean, we don't have enough vaccine right now, in the first, you know, in the last week or two or three of december, to be able to get everybody who needs to -- and that's the reason why

what happens is that a certain amount of vaccine gets shipped locally to the states. and then the final decision of how to do that properly will be left up to the states with strong recommendations from the cdc. >> so, let me get into some specifics, because there are people watching here. hey, i've get a parent or grandparent in a senior facility. maybe it's a nursing home. maybe it's a senior living, you know, care. when will they get it? how early in this process do you expect them to get a vaccine? >> yeah, yeah. again, i don't want to get ahead of the advisory committee, but i can tell you what likely will happen, certainly not definitive, that people in nursing homes will likely be very high up there in that facility. you know, if you look at the number of people who are in what's called official nursing homes, there's about 1.5 million people. if you look at the people who are the staff, that staff those

official nursing homes, that's about another 1.5 million. so you probably have around 3 million people. i think you can get them protected reasonably soon, because obviously, they're very vulnerable. then you go down the list of people who are elderly with or without underlying conditions and you get the different priorities after that. >> let's talk about kids here. moderna did not do any clinical trials of anybody under the age of 18, and i think pfizer did some of its clinical trials down to age 12, but there hasn't been a lot. what is your sense of, when should we expect school-aged kids to be able to get vaccinated? are we looking at the summer? is that going to be a longer period of time here? >> well, traditionally, chuck -- well, the answer, the direct answer to your question, it's going to be months. and the reason is, traditionally, when you have a situation like a new vaccine, you want to make sure, because children as well as pregnant women, are vulnerable. so before you put it into the

children, you're going to want to make sure you have a degree of efficacy and safety that is established in an adult population, particularly an adult normal population. then there are ways to get children vaccine by, let's say maybe in january. and again, this is my estimate -- >> i understand. >> it may not be exactly that. that you go ahead and do what's called a phase one and a phase 2a trial in children. in other words, you find out, is it safe in children, and does it induce the kind of immune response that's comparable to that in adults, an immune response that you know protects adults? and then what you could do is you can do a study, what's called a bridging study. you can say okay, we have safety in children, we have comparable immunogenicity, meaning a comparable immune response. we can get this approved for the children before going through a 30,000-person trial that may

take a longer period of time. so we're going to start the process, very likely, in january, to get it to the children sooner rather than later. >> if someone has had covid-19, do they get vaccinated? >> you know, the answer is very likely yes. when the trials were done, the moderna trials and other trials, and we looked at the data, there were people who, when you looked at their antibody response, they actually gave indication that they had already been infected and actually recovered quite well, and at the time of the vaccine study, they were actually well and normal, as it were, and yet, they still got vaccinated. since we don't know the durable of protection from someone who has already been infected, how long that protection lasts, it would not be surprising that we would be vaccinating people who have recovered from covid-19. >> given the -- and you've admittedly said this -- our sort of rough rollout of a testing strategy in this country --

arguably, we still don't have -- you know, we're still dealing with a testing strategy that arguably prioritizes sports leagues over health care workers at times. but let me ask you this. why should we feel confident that vaccine distribution will go smoothly, considering, frankly, how unsmoothly testing went? >> well, the reason that we should feel more confident about that, chuck, is that we have a long, long history of the distribution of vaccines. i mean, it's not to the extent that you are giving it to 300 million people, but every year, the system is set up in a relationship between the cdc and the state and local health authorities that they distribute 80 million or more vaccines every year. so, this isn't something that they've done just for the first time. obviously, you're going to want to scale it up, because the numbers are going to be greater. but there are a couple of aspects to getting vaccine into the arm of someone who needs it. one is to get it transported from the place where it's made

and stored to the local state and city areas. that's being handled by general gus perna and the military, and the transport of that. once it gets there, it's the state and local authorities who are responsible for the distribution. so there are a couple phases. the part about 300 million doses getting shipped is going to be taken care of by people who know how to do that. the part at the distal end, mainly getting it into people's arms, will be more challenging than the normal flu season. you'd be foolish to deny that. but i think it will be able to be done because local people have done that in the past. hopefully, they'll get the resources to help them to do that. >> on january 20th, a president biden calls you up, dr. fauci. what's the first thing you say to him? he says, i need a handle, what's the first thing you want me to do? what do you say to him? >> i think there will be a couple of things. i think it's going to be continuing to make sure that the

vaccines get distributed in an efficient and equitable way. i think that's really very important. i also have been, together with dr. birx, have been saying, there are two types of testings -- or a couple of types of testings, more than two -- but one is the testing for a situation where you want to find out, is this person infected? and can we be able to do good identification, isolation, and contact tracing? and then there's the broader testing, namely, one that's less sensitive but that's testing people who are not symptomatic, namely, a much broader blanket over the country, in a way that's easy, that's cheap, that is even a home test. i'm going to be pushing for that, because i think when you really allow us to know in a very quick way what the p penetrance of infection is in any way, i think that will be very important, because the virus is being spread throughout the country by people without symptoms, so we've got to go beyond the symptomatic people and get a better understanding

of the asymptomatic transmission. >> every day when i make a right turn to come into the office, when i do come into the office, there's a big sign that says "thank you, dr. fauci." let me just say the same thing right now. thank you, dr. fauci. appreciate you coming on, sharing your perspective with us. >> thank you very much, chuck. thank you for having me. >> you got it. when we come back, the assassination of the head of iran's nuclear program could complicate president-elect biden's foreign policy. former chairman of the joint chiefs, admiral mike mullen, joins me next on why presidential transitions have implications for national security. nsitions have implications for national security

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do not give linzess to children less than six and it should not be given to children six to less than 18, it may harm them. do not take linzess if you have a bowel blockage. get immediate help if you develop unusual or severe stomach pain, especially with bloody or black stools. the most common side effect is diarrhea, sometimes severe. if it's severe, stop taking linzess and call your doctor right away. other side effects include gas, stomach area pain, and swelling. change your thinking to ibs-c. if your constipation and belly pain keeps coming back, tell your doctor and say yesss! to linzess. welcome back. not every presidential transition has to be as difficult as this one has been. under president george w. bush, admiral mike mullen, on the right, was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, and bob gates on the left was the press secretary, and president obama kept both men in their jobs, ensuring an even smoother transition of power than normal. admiral mullen knows what a proper transition looks like and why a rocky one can have serious national security implications.

and he joins me now. admiral mullen, welcome back to "meet the press." i'll be honest, i was very focused on getting you on here about a week, over a week ago, on the news about afghanistan and the decisions that the president was making right before he was handing over power, and i had my own flashback to decisions you were involved with in afghanistan. and then the iranian -- then the assassination happened last night -- or over the weekend. so i want to start with iran, admiral mullen, and what you think the implications are going forward for a president biden and the iran nuclear deal? >> well, i think the assassination makes it much more challenging, if you will, chuck, in terms of where president-elect biden wants to go in terms of renegotiating or making, you know, re-entering into the nuclear deal specifically. i'm hopeful that, actually, president-elect biden can do

that. fakhrizadeh was at the heart of the iranian nuclear program and has been for years, not only the brains, but also the passion behind it. so, his assassination is really a significant event, not unlike a year ago when we took out soleimani. that's a real, real center of gravity, if you will, for that program. that doesn't mean there aren't other nuclear scientists or that iran can't continue on. so, i really -- i expect this -- certainly, the media's reporting that tensions are on the rise. there's an israeli component to this, meaning israel is, you know, iran is a -- a nuclear weapon in iran is an existential threat to israel and israel will do all it can to make sure that never happens. so, i'm hopeful that president-elect biden can actually reach in and calm the waters, but i think this heightens tensions significantly. >> look, we still have another

50 days before the transfer of power. it certainly looks to the layperson that israel looks at its national security priorities and thought, the timing, we'd better do this now, before there's a new american president. what other situations are there around the world right now that you're concerned that there might be more attempts at tying the hands of the new president? >> well, i think i'm actually very concerned about the trump loyalists who have now gone to work in the pentagon. i mean, recently, secretary esper was fired and a host of other people left the building, and there are some real trump loyalists there now in charge, and it's pretty difficult to think that over the course of 50 or 60 days, you can do something constructive, but you can do something that's really destructi destructive. and a week ago, there were certainly many media reports that there was a debate about

action against iran, specifically. the president reportedly turned down. but i would be concerned that those issues continue to be raised. you mentioned the troops in afghanistan, coming out there. there are reports now of bringing troops home from somalia, and just, i guess, generally trying to get as many troops home before the inauguration as possible. i just think we need to be very careful with that. i'd like everybody to come home as well. reality is, on the ground in places like somalia and afghanistan, there are still terrorists who would do us ill. and i want to play, actually, the game on their turf and not play it here. if we just come home, my fear is that they arrive here in the united states, and we've been through that before and i never want to see that happen again. >> look, i want to -- i made a point at start of our interview about sort of the transition from bush to obama, but i want to put it in starker terms. here was "the new york times" headline just a week ago --

"trump using last days to lock in policies and make biden's task more difficult." and here's an excerpt from robert gates' book "duty," where he says, "in december, bush was prepared to approve the additional 20,000 troops" -- this is december of '08. "and steve hadley asked obama's national security adviser-designate, jim jones, whether the new administration preferred that bush make the troop decision and take the heat, or hold off. and the new team opted for the second course." the point was, this was a transition -- and granted, made easier because gates was staying over -- where there was consultation and there was a concern, what would the world think if one president boxed in another president? now we have one american president boxing in another american president. what message does that send to the world, admiral mullen? >> one of the things that i learned in the job that i had is you'd like to do all you can to not box in the president, is to give the president, any president, as many options and as much space as possible.

so, this is obviously the opposite case right now. in fact, i thought president bush set the tone for the issue you mentioned, but also a handful of other issues that i saw, that these were decisions that were going to be impactful on the next president, and it was his desire, that is president bush, to make sure that president obama had a vote, specifically. an example that you lay out is one significant example, specifically. so, it appears that the current administration is trying to lock in as many options, as many issues as possible, to make it much more difficult for president-elect biden to govern. and actually, historically, that just has never been the case. i worry that, you know, in a time where you just went through, you know, where we are on the pandemic, specifically, the challenge we have in the

economy. and national security issues do not wait. it's going to be a particularly difficult transition in that arena. actually having started three weeks late. so, it is -- i think our allies, our friends and our enemies, look at us at a time of real fragility in that regard, and our enemies always try to look and take advantage of a transition period. >> very quickly, what do you tell those that are still wearing the uniform active duty, whether it's general milley on down, and they see what these staffers are doing right now at the pentagon, and they're very nervous about it? how publicly should they be sounding alarms? >> well, i have a lot of faith in general milley, that he understands where he's working and who's in the building, and confident that he's actually sending the right message. and he said it recently at an event locally in washington, where, the united states military men and women support and defend the constitution.

we do not support and defend an individual or an individual office. and i think that's the message. milley's been very strong on that and that's the right message to them. >> admiral mike mullen, former chair of the joint chiefs -- retired admiral, of course. thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective, sir. always appreciate it. >> thank you, chuck. when we come back, president trump finally said he'll leave the white house if he loses the electoral college vote, but is he planning a return in 2024? the panel is next. planning a r4 the panel is next. loses the

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welcome back. the panel is with us. nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt, hugh hewitt, o. kay henderson with the radio network and michael eric dyson of vanderbilt university, author of "long time coming: reckoning with race in america." folks, president trump is still insisting he won the election, which he did not, and joe biden didn't win 80 million votes -- he has -- and that somehow, the election was marred by massive fraud. it was not. but last week he seemed to put to rest the idea that he would refuse to leave the white house january 20th. listen. >> if the electoral college does elect president-elect joe biden, are you not going to leave this building? >> certainly i will. certainly i will, and you know that. but i think that there will be a lot of things happening between now and the 20th of january. >> kay henderson, you're the one

not stuck with the rest of us coastal elites, and i guess michael eric dyson gets to be -- no longer is a coastal elite when he heads over to vanderbilt from georgetown. so, as our middle, literally, in the geographic middle of this country, what do americans hear when they've been hearing the president complain about this election? >> well, not everyone is hearing that, number one. number two, in terms of a concession, in the state of iowa, jim ross lightfoot has still not conceded the 1998 election to tom vilsack. tom vilsack still went on to serve two terms as governor and both terms as president obama's usa g secretary. so, therefore, i think when historians look at this period, they're likely going to look at the policies that were discussed and debated during this period, and perhaps what trump may or may not be able to do with congress in relation to pandemic

relief. >> you know, kasie hunt, this is not new with this president. he has complained about whatever has happened, whether it's a bankruptcy. you know, in 1990, he, himself, he's always claiming that, somehow, what we're reading or what we're hearing is not true. in 1990 -- whether it's a marriage or whether it's financial, i've never seen press reporting as i have with regard to me. i hope the general public understands how inherently dishonest the press in this country is. we had a type c personality running the hotel. i've never made money in my life with a type c personality. these lenders are babies, these are killers, virtually every company in atlantic city went bankrupt, every company. there's always an excuse, always a reason, never a point where he admits the facts on the ground. again, this is not just his business career, and his celebrity career. >> well, and he spent most of the time in all of those careers trying to avoid the label of loser. and in this particular case, it's very clear, he lost the

election to joe biden. he lost it in a significant way. and that's something that he cannot escape, despite trying every avenue to the point of absurdity over the course of the last couple of weeks since the election was actually declared. and you're right, i mean, and in iowa, remember, i don't think he's even conceded that he lost the iowa caucus to ted cruz -- >> in '16, yeah. >> -- back in 2016, when he was first running for the republican primary nomination. and this is something that, clearly, you know, for him, he has spent the entirety of his presidency attacking the media. and he's been pretty transparent about why he does that. he says, well, the reason i do that is because, that way, when they say something i don't like, no one will believe them. and that's the question here that i think history is also going to reflect on -- how much damage was done to trust in our systems, in our institutions, in our elections, during this period when an outgoing president was trying to do everything he could to convince his supporters that the results couldn't be trusted.

>> hugh hewitt, your listeners, they don't -- maybe they don't want to believe the facts that are on the ground. do you feel like you confront your listeners enough that don't want to believe the facts, or do you think you could do more? >> every day i talk to people who believe that there is massive fraud in georgia, and i tell them no and they've got to get out and vote for david perdue and kelly loeffler, who i support. but i think what's going on is an underevaluation of the voters' intelligence again. they're very smart and they know that president trump as of today is planning to run for election in 2024 against president-elect biden, and he's doing things consistent with that. and i think he is going to spend the next four years underscoring the big successes of his tenure, including "operation warp speed." it was great news, what dr. fauci said, that most of the frontline people will be vaccinated by the end of december. he's going to emphasize his military rebuild, the supreme court he's going to emphasize conservative realism versus the

chinese communist party and the abraham accords. so, he's just setting up a campaign that's already begun. and i wouldn't be surprised, chuck, if on or before the inauguration of president biden, he announces trump 2024 is formed and it's off to the races. >> well, look, he announced his re-election campaign on inauguration day in 2017. michael eric dyson, the damage -- president trump is using old dog whistles to talk about voter fraud. he's talking about "the cities." and i guess maybe we should be glad he's only using a dog whistle when he says "the cities." long-term damage that's being redone here, in your mind? >> well, it's pretty unparalleled. a sitting president of the united states of america attacking with such vitriol and viciousness the very process of democracy that landed him the job to begin with. so, while he undercuts the prospects of american democracy, he's undercutting his own legitimacy, the very thing about which he has been obsessed over these years. but think about the dog whistle,

that in some instances has been far louder. look at, he's attacking detroit. 79% black. he's attacking atlanta, 52% black. he's attacking philadelphia, 42% black. he's attacking milwaukee, 39% black. so we get what he's doing here. he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too, so to speak. he has an uptick in voting among african-american people by 5%, among black men, 4% among black women. yet at the same time, he wants to be able to whistle to white supremacists and white nationalists that he is still their guy and that he will continue to send out the notion that, somehow, this is a fraud, the fraud is related to race. race is itself illegitimate. and as a result of that, you as a white person have every reason in the world, regardless of your stratification, whether you're making, you know, $100 million a year or whether you're barely making $10,000, to vote for me, because i'm your guy. this is destructive to the process of american democracy, and one of the most powerful

repudiations of enlightenment. here's a guy who's antiscience, he's antirace. he's anti everything that makes this country, it seems, the very thing he wants to make it. >> kay, this issue of, we're hearing basically two different sets of facts, two different narratives. how does that come -- where do you see it the most in iowa and where do you see it on the ground in your job? >> well, frankly, i'm not seeing that much. the iowa republican party state central committee passed a resolution a couple of weeks ago saying that they support president trump's pursuing, you know, avenues through the courts, all the way to the supreme court. you have republican voices like the chairman of the republican party here in iowa still supporting the president. you don't hear a lot of talk among republicans about the

voter fraud issue. we do have an election here that is still ongoing. there is a congressional race here which currently has a republican in the lead by six votes, and it's likely that this will also be going through the court system. so, you don't hear those talking points here as much because of the vote counting that's still ongoing in iowa's second congressional district. >> i'll tell you, kay, i'd love to go -- we could go real deal on that second congressional district. to think they went from dave loebsack to where they're possibly going to go today, it tells you everything about the changing dynamics, not only around the country, but in iowa as well. when we come back, while joe biden held socially distant campaign events, president trump hosted huge campaign rallies. did they help or hurt? "data download" is next. did they help or hurt? "data download" is next.

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♪ welcome back. "data download" time. as the 2020 campaign wound down, president trump criss-crossed the country, hoping big rallies would drum up enthusiasm as it did for him in 2016. did it work? an nbc news tally shows there were 30 trump campaign stops in the last two weeks in states from arizona to nebraska to pennsylvania. in five counties that mr. trump visited, he saw better results than he did in 2016. but in the remaining 25, either his margin of victory shrank, his margin of defeat grew, or the county flipped to biden

altogether. so, let's look at a few of these counties in a few battleground states. we're going to start in michigan. on october 27th, president trump held a rally in ingamm county, home of lansing and did worse than in 2016. in detroit, he did worse than in 2016 and in grand traverse county, he won but his margin fell by nine points. there was a similar pattern in pennsylvania. president trump visited erie, the state's ultimate swing county, and in the end it narrowly flipped to joe biden by a single point. mr he won lancaster county, but at less than in 2016. and in scranton county, the president lost by almost eight points, almost five points worse than last time. finally, the swingiest of swing states, florida, which president trump carried much more easily this time around, well, despite mr. trump's rally in the

panhandle of escambia county, his winning margin fell by five points and he lost hillsborough county by the same margin in 2016, but the big exception to this pattern was miami-dade. the president was there november 1st and of course, made huge gains, shrinking his loss there by 22 points, guaranteeing a win in that state. to be clear, none of this is provable. mr. trump's rallies actually may have helped him, even in places where he lost ground, but in a time when public health experts were warning about covid risks at large gatherings, they may have been more of a liability, particularly locally, than an asset. anyway, some evidence to back that up. joe biden hopes to break washington's partisan gridlock. but what are the chances republicans agree to work with him on that? that's next. blicans agree to woh him on that? that's next. a new customer. save more for adding drivewise. save even more for driving safely. see how much you can save with allstate. ♪

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high cholesterol and weight gain, high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, may occur. movement dysfunction, sleepiness, and stomach issues are common side effects. when bipolar i overwhelms, vraylar helps smooth the ups and downs. welcome back. as we turn more towards president-elect biden and the transition, i want to highlight a quote, michael eric dyson, that i think feeds into something you write about in your book as well. first, let me play this quote from president-elect biden on the evening of when he was declared the victor by many media organizations. >> and especially for those moments when this campaign was at its lowest ebb, the african-american community stood up again for me. [ cheers and applause ] you always had my back! and i'll have yours! >> you write this about third-rail race. and you say this -- "despite president obama's attempt to gently but directly address the

mammoth hurts and simmering hostilities between black folk and the cops, the reactive white discomfort kept him for a while from touching the third rail of race. that was a little more than disconcerting to black folk because we realized that if america couldn't listen to the truth from obama, then few other voices stood a chance." i'm curious, does joe biden and his voice stand a chance? >> i think so. i think my assessment there has been borne out by empirical facts. that's just a big word that can be falsified or verified through the census. we saw the eye test, the polls, that when obama spoke about race, there was extraordinary disconcert and discomfort, but with joe biden, i think the white privilege he has, as a figure who has been deeply rooted in traditions that are respectful of and conversant with african-american communities makes him an ideal figure. he can use that privilege that he has as a white man who is mature and wise, along with his ability and his ideas, which i

think are fresh. he's got people around him like cedric richmond, a powerful and brilliant congressman who will help guide and lead him. but already, he has his instincts about police brutality, about the economy that has hurt african-american people, and the disproportionate ways in which covid-19 has attacked their bodies. i think those things put him in good stead. and when have you ever heard a president before say, i owe you black folk because you stood by me, now i'm going to stand by you? that's pretty remarkable in the history of american presidencies. >> kasie, what are you seeing? are you seeing any differences between how -- does the african-american lawmakers on capitol hill, do they expect joe biden to deliver? >> i think that they do, chuck, but i also think that there is pretty deep trust there. i think that's part of what explains why joe biden did so well, why jim clyburn stood up at his side when he did at that critically important point in the presidential race, why black people listen to him and went out there for him. i mean, this is not a

relationship that developed overnight or came out of nowhere. this is a relationship that developed over many years, many decades, quite frankly, of joe biden's time in public life. and that trust has always been, as i'm sure professor dyson knows very, very well, that trust has always been kind of a bedrock for black people in politics and political life, and it's something, you know, with which they have a long history. and you know, president obama, to what the professor's book was saying, his time in public life was simply much shorter. he's a much different type of political figure than joe biden is. so, i do think that there is deep trust and faith that biden is going to follow through on what he said there. >> hugh hewitt, i feel like that there's going to be some sort of, i don't know if it's a reckoning or what you want to call it on the right, where you're going to have some who say, hey, there are plenty of african-americans that would like to support conservatives or republicans, but the branding, thanks to donald trump, makes it very hard to have that

conversation. do you think that changes in a post-trump world? >> i think it's already changing. professor dyson noted in the first panel segment that donald trump increased his numbers with african-americans significantly. and when you look at the biggest winners on tuesday night a month ago, where kevin mccarthy in the house and mitch mcconnell in the senate, and they're going to look at 16 republican women who got elected, they're going to look at two african-american congressmen, they're going to look at, you know, michelle steel, in orange county, kim in orange county, california. they're going to want to diversify the county. i haven't read the professor's new book. i've read "tears we cannot stop," his other book and i would recommend mccarthy and mcconnell and every republican read that, and president trump as he goes for 2024, build on that 50% gain he made by putting his arm around tim scott and other people who speak for african-american republicans and latino republicans, and say, what worked, what didn't, let's build on the former. >> kasie hunt, you're here. i've got to ask you, covid relief. i feel like it's something i ask you every time you come on the

show, and it's always, yeah, maybe next week, but unlikely. are we there again? >> it's really tough, chuck. and as you saw, even through the course of the president trying to challenge the results of the election, people from his own party, from states who are struggling with this, came and they said, please, we need this, please. when we're watching our health care workers struggle with this day in, day out, it is something that is deeply, deeply needed still, and the politics of it remain incredibly difficult. so, i think that there is a window for them to do some of the things, or at least try and help a little bit. there is a must-pass bill to keep government open, and i think there is a significant push to try and put some things in there that will help people who are really struggling with this. it's certainly -- >> yeah, okay. >> -- something that i think the president-elect has focused on, but right now, not necessarily any hope for a big bill at this point, chuck. >> all right, guys, that is all i have for today. i wish we had more time. thank you all for watching. i hope you enjoy the rest of your thanksgiving day weekend. hope you aren't traveling.

be safe. we'll be back next week, because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." what we expect, unfortunately, as we go for the next couple of weeks into december, that we might see a surge superimposed upon that surge that we're already in. >> i want to be straight with the american people -- it's going to get worse over the next several weeks. >> we saw what happened post memorial day. now we are deeply worried about what could happen post thanksgiving. >> u.s. health officials warn that we could see a covid surge on top of a surge as we enter the holiday season. the question is whether actions over the thanksgiving holiday will lead to a