hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. not two days after donald trump's accusation that the barr-led justice department was, quote, missing in action as an ally in his fraudulent claim that the election was rigged against him, attorney general bill barr today repudiated donald trump's lie about widespread voter fraud. barr, who is a staunch ally of trump and who often makes headlines for subverting the rule of law in service of trump, today put a nail in the coffin of trump's fantasy that his loss to joe biden was somehow illegitimate. in an interview, barr puts it rather bluntly. quote, to date, we have not seen fraud on the scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election. rudy giuliani and jenna ellis, tru trump's legal team accused the justice department of not sufficiently investigating

claims of fraud. but of course, it's the same legal team that has also failed to produce any evidence of systematic fraud, losing case after case after case in dozens of attempts before state and federal judges. and as rudy giuliani continues to beat his dead horse, it's worth noting this scoop today, that a pardon for rudy giuliani may reportedly be in that works. from "the times," quote, rudy giuliani, president trump's lawyer who has led the most extensive efforts to damage his client's political rivals and undermine the election results, discussed with the president as recently as last week the possibility of receiving a preemptive pardon before mr. trump leaves office. that's according to two people told of the discussion. the power to pardon is known to be one of donald trump's favorites and his top cheerleader in the right wing media last night seemed to be softening the ground for both pardons as trump prepares to leave office. sean hannity suggesting that trump pardon himself and his

entire family. the last gasps of the president's assault on democracy and the rule of law just 50 days before he's set to leave office is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. mike schmidt, washington correspondent for "the new york times" with the by line on that "times" piece. he is with us. also joining us, frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence. and sam stein is back, politics editor for "the daily beast." mike, take us through the reporting on rudy giuliani's need for a pardon. >> well, so, we don't know the full extent of giuliani's criminal exposure, but what we do know is that he's been under investigation for some time, at least a year or more, by the prosecutors in the southern district of new york. and what we found out is that as

recently as last week, as giuliani has been out there pushing these claims about the election, him and trump had this discussion about the pardon. now, giuliani has told others that he's concerned that a biden justice department will simply resurrect these dormant investigations and use them to target him, but whatever the case, he thinks that he has some type of criminal exposure that could be a problem and that he needs to be insulated from with a pardon. now, the thing is is that the president has used his pardon power to really help out many of his close allies. a lot of presidents have done that in the past. the difference here is that some of the people that the president has done this with, whether it was commuting the sentence of roger stone or it was pardoning mike flynn like he did on fri y friday, are people who, you

know, prosecutors wanted to talk to. the president dangled the pardon in front of. and ultimately never fully cooperated with the investigations into the 2016 election. so, it's sort of all connected together. >> well, frank, i mean, another way of asking the question might also be, you know, are these pardons or the commutation for stone, full pardon for flynn, part of guaranteeing that the truth never comes out? is it part of a coverup? and if you lump rudy in there, i think some of the questions about his business associates, i'm thinking of lev parnas, intersected with a lot of questions and conduct for which donald trump was ultimately impeached. it seems like it could have a whole lot of exposure. >> yeah, giuliani and trump, going back to campaign days and forward, are linked together. they are intertwined. and really, i'm now seeing a

presidential pardon is perhaps the most lawful way to obstruct justice that we have in our system, because that's what these pardons will inevitably become, an obstruction of justice by the president to protect his own skin. and now, we see some sense, if there's any way to make sense out of the craziness that is rudy giuliani, we see him acting out on the president's behalf, largely likely because he needs to, if he is to have any hope of getting a pardon, so, he's acting in his own self-interest, not out of some sense of loyalty to the president, and he's going to beg and plead for some salvation. now, let's remember, the reality here, a couple things. one, you get a pardon and, you know, you can't claim the fifth amendment right against self-incrimination if you are called to testify at a grand jury. you get a pardon and it's only for federal crimes. you can't stop the state of new york for going after similar crimes that may be on their books. >> you know, sam, i was listening to mike and frank

talk, i'm thinking about how far they've fallen. mike flynn was once a highly regarded military defense intelligence official. rudy giuliani, once a celebrated mayor of a city after the attacks of 9/11, now they're, you know, in the -- at the bottom of the barrel, groveling for pardons from donald trump who is an unindicted co-conspirator in a campaign finance case. while constitutional, while legal, it's really gross. >> yeah. things got really out of control, it appears. from the get-go. and hitching their wagons to trump, you know, obviously, it gave them proximity to power, but it forced them upon these incredibly difficult, i wouldn't argue that they're difficult for them, ethical dilemmas and now they find themselves in hot water legally and politically. the pardon, as frank pointed out, is in a way of sort of giving blanket protection to these people for things that may have done or potentially future investigations, but in a weird

twist of fate, i think this actually, that these acts, if trump follows through on them, probably ups the ante that democrats, including however president-elect joe biden appoints to be attorney general, feel the desire, or the impulse, to look into what transpired. it invites that type of inquiry -- >> yeah. >> it suggests that something is being hidden and needs to be unearthed. so, this could prompt a congressional investigation or potentially more complicated legal challenge to the idea of a preemptive pardon like this. we presume that the pardon power is absolute, but it hasn't really been challenges aggressively legally in the modern err aa. and you could end up in a situation where that is on the docket. >> i want to turn to the two tarantulas in a bowl this hour. rudy giuliani going after bill barr's justice department with the sort of -- with all due respect for bill barr, in a

scathing statement, after bill barr told associated press this afternoon that there is nothing to investigate, there is no evidence of voter fraud, certainly none that would overturn the results of the election. mike, you and your colleagues reported that before the election, bill barr was softening the ground for what was widely reported to be donald trump's election strategy to get within striking distance and then basically cheat his way over the finish line. bill barr's repudiation seem like a pretty big deal. how do you expect they land inside the oval office? >> well, so far, he's at the white house right now meeting with the president. the justice department saying that this was a preplanned meeting, but certainly he's there. and look -- i can't believe this is going over well, it seems like giuliani and trump are on the same page on how they view a lot of these things, so i don't think giuliani would have put that statement out if he didn't think trump would like it. and look, bill barr, if

anything, knows how to speak out publicly. he knows how to try and use the bully pulpit of the attorney general to, you know, push the narrative and effect change in the ways that he wanted. and if you sort of listen for what you didn't hear, in the aftermath of the election, bill barr, who had pushed all these claims about voter fraud that had been debunked during the election, said very little. and you had to wonder if there really was election fraud, then barr probably would have spoken up, because he certainly never held back on speaking up before. and there was pressure on him from republicans to come out and to knock down the president's claim, because he was seen as such a trump ally, and he -- he did that today. and will that have any impact? i can't believe that, you know, lou dobbs and the folks that have been really behind pushing this narrative about voter fraud are all of a sudden going to

give up, because bill barr said this, but it certainly is another movement towards -- i don't know, i guess the trump era and i've run out of worlds. >> frank, i want to bring up the natural extension of lou dobbs, jody genoa talking about murdering chris krebs, the homeland security official who was fired for doing his job too well and then sharing with the american public for whom he works that the election was the most secure in history. joe, i think, was too creepy even for trump, he was a candidate for one of those impeachment lawyers and he may have cycled through the mix. he said last night, and i know frank, you've tweeted about this, that chris krebs should e be, ah, violently killed. he has since said that anyone who saw it knew he was being sarcastic, but let me show you

how chris krebs is responding today on "the today show." >> it's certainly more dangerous language, more dangerous behavior and the way i look at it is that we are a nation of laws and i plan to take advantage of those laws, i've got an exceptional team of lawyers that win in court and i think they're probably going to be busy. >> you feel like there's legal action that might arise from comments like that? >> we're taking a look at all our available opportunities. >> so, frank, my favorite thing that he said there was, i've got an exceptional team of lawyers that win in court, a contrast there to rudy giuliani, me thinks, but what line may have been crossed? what is chris krebs talking about? >> yeah, i think a law has been broken here. there are federal laws that protect not only active duty federal officials, but some that

protect former federal officials if they're being retaliated against for actions they took in their official capacity. and i certainly would argue that the statements fall into that category. lawyers will have to look at and the fbi will have to look at whether the cyber security position that krebs held falls into that kind of designated class of officials, but i would argue that it should and i think there's something to pursue here, but i want to point out something that's equally, if not more noteworthy about those violent comments. here's the deal, why this is noteworthy. in the past, we've been able to look at kind of fringe extremists who are violent and espouse violent rhetoric and we've been able to say, and find some comfort in saying, that person's mentally ill, this person is troubled. we did it with a guy who mailed a bomb component to former officials, former president, news organizations, right,

former cia director. we said, he's troubled, he must be mentally ill, he needs professional assistant. we did it with the el paso walmart shooting. we said, that's a troubled young man, he needs some assistance, even though he adhered to trump's violent rhetoric. we've done it with the kenoshas, wisconsin, shooter, troubled young man, he's going to need some help. we can't do that with people with m.d., j.d. after their name, start saying crazy, violent things. what this is is no longer a lunatic fringe, but rather, it's the mainstreaming of madness and that gets very dangerous, because it starts to entrench a form of violent radicalism in our society, when people who should know better, people with educations who study data and interpret data for a living, lawyers, doctors, doctors who think herd immunity and killing 2 million people is the way to tw go. when that becomes part of the mainstream, we need to be very concerned about what that says

about our security. >> you know, i don't want to gloss over this, i want to stay with you on this topic, frank, because it is notable that chris wray, donald trump's fbi director, has ktestified before congress that the single greatest threat facing this country right now is radicalized domestic terrorists, largely inspired by white supremacy and it seems that all of our collective desire to turn the page of trumpism, we can't brush aside the largest domestic terror threat that will face a new biden homeland and national security team, which is what i think you're talking about, this radicalized domestic threat, somehow it is not an excuse anymore to say that everyone that talks like that is troubled and disturbed. i think that's what i hear you saying, but i want to push you for the solution. >> ah, well, there is a challenge, because when you talk

about a deradicalization or anti-radicalization movements, we've never seen it on that kind of broad scope and scale, certainly on a domestic level. but what we point to is radicalized gee daddists and how we get people away from extremism. i know i'm going to take heat for making the comparison, but when you are talking about violent radical thought and acting out and suggesting that an official should be drawn and quartered because of the official acts he took, we're getting dangerously close to that kind of extremist radicalization. and people need to denounce it. how do you fix that? joe biden needs to prioritize this on his long list of priorities including dealing with the coronavirus, but it's not going away when trump goes away. there's too many people believing too many of these crazy thoughts, people getting elected to congress who adhere to qanon thoughts, so, what do you do? here's the challenge. you have to expose them to truth. you have to keep showing them reality.

the problem in our society is that it's an echo chamber of where we get our media and news from and it's hard to show them the truth. they won't believe it, if they think the other side is evil. this is going to be the biggest challenge we face in the next few years. >> you know, sam, i know you, a newsroom manager, were prepared to cover these sort of clashes if they had sort of spilled into the streets, but i wonder how you plan to cover what really has become two americas? i mean, we keep an eye on fox news and it is an alternate reality. it is not just a different take on the day's headlines, it is a totally different media diet. >> right. yes, that's true, but i think fox news, in a way, is not -- is not really the primary problem here. you know, fox news doesn't even come close to the type of content that people are getting accustomed to seeing on

facebook, which, full disclosure, my wife works there, and other social media channels where as frank rightly points out, there are these insular o ecosystems where are you not confronted with anything other than the conspiracy theories. and we did a look back at the campaign from the democratic perspective on the online news information wars and this is the thing that scared the operatives the most, which is, they did not really understand the degree to which this universe had expanded. they know -- they had metrics for measuring it and they saw when the country went on lockdown in the spring and people were spending more time online, the proliferation of the qanon conspiracy really took off, which showed them that people were having these weird coordinations. but the degree to which this universe expanded over the summer really surprised democrats. and the biggest question they're

facing going forward is, how do you actually reach these people? what can you do to breech their bubble? should you try to reach these people? or is that the responsibility of the social media giants? these are huge questions, not just politically, but for society. and there is really no solution for this at this point in time. >> you know, and just to sort of bring this conversation back to where we are in the last gasp of the trump presidency, if not the trump era, but he is mainlining to all of these people -- >> yes. >> to the fox news viewers, that the election was rigged against him, that fraud existed. that statement that rudy and whoever put out, we laughed. 70 million people thought they were speaking the truth. so, mike, what is the culpability of men like bill barr, who have, i mean, today he stood up and spoke the truth, but it's about the first day i

can remember since he's been one of the most powerful government officials in our country. >> i mean, i think that regardless of whether the president changes his posture towards the election today or whatever, what has gone on in the past few weeks will be something that we'll be dealing with as a country for many years to come. because i don't think that you can just feed that rhetoric to trump's base and as you pointed out, the poll numbers reflect a deep skepticism in trump's base about the election. i don't think that you can feed them the way that the right wing media has and just expect them to look the other way and forget about it, in the end. so, i think this is something that will resonate in our politics for many years to come. and, you know, even if trump accepts the results tomorrow, the past month has been full blast at the base on something on an issue that i just don't

think the base will forget about. >> i don't, either. mike, frank, sam, to be continued. thank you all so much for starting us off. when we come back, scott atlas, mask truther, herd immunity supporter and staunch trump ally, stepping down today, likely to the great relief of the real experts on the white house coronavirus task force who have publicly and privately criticized him. but not before untold thousands of americans risked their lives listening to his bogus advice. plus, if it's beginning to seem like trump stands nothing more to gain from prolonging his fight to overturn the election rights, a new report in "the new york times" reveals 170 million reasons why trump may be motivated to keep going. and with donald trump locked in open warfare with a growing number of republicans, a leading conservative outlet comes out forcibly against him. all those stories still coming up, don't go anywhere.

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today, donald trump is without his favorite pandemic adviser. hospitals are swelling with a record number of coronavirus patients and americans are dying at the highest rate since the spri spring, dr. scott atlas's resignation followed a limited tenure, less than four months, most of which he spent feuding with health officials within the administration while garnering incomprehensible support from the president, despite his embrace of strategies that most experts said were downright dangerous. he supported herd immunity,

downplayed wearing masks and he advocated reducing testing. perhaps this neuroradiologist with no infectious disease experience who briefed trump more than anyone else on the task force is part of the reason we got to this point. a seven-day average of nearly 160,000 cases every single day and a record of more than 4.3 million new cases in november. more than twice the month before. so far, more than 11.7 million americans have become infected with the coronavirus and tragically, more than 270,000 americans have been lost. joining us now, lenny bernstein, health and medicine reporter for "the washington post" and dr. a kavita patel, foerm healrmer he policy for the obama white house. lenny, you were inside the mayo clinic hospital system for a couple of days. i read it out loud to anybody who would listen.

so, just talk about what you saw. >> thanks for having me. yeah, we were allowed to go inside for two days to a medium-sized hospital in wisconsin and what we saw was a the tremendous strain and stress that doctors and nurses and other personnel are under. covid patients are filling and increasing number of the beds in there. the system, which is one big hospital and four very small ones, has been operating at capacity or over capacity for many weeks now and you can see the toll it takes. everybody is operating at 120% of what they're able to do. then they go home and have to deal with their own families who are also under stress. >> i get a lump in my throat when you were writing about the kind of people that came in the hospital, proud, hardworking,

some dairy farmers, i think, were described in your piece, but none broke my haerpt more than the nurse who sat with a covid patient for their dying words and breath and then had to get up and rush to sit with another one while he died. talk about what the nurses and doctors are feeling right now today? >> well, the nurse that you are describing had just come on shift. she had been there just for a short time and another nurse had to do something, so she said to this mary beth pickler, would you mind sitting with this covid patient, he's an elderly man, he has perhaps an hour left to live. and she did and she -- she just sat there and spoke with him, he talked about his dairy farm, he talked about his angus cows that he had and then after awhile, the oxygen mask was uncomfortable for him and he took it off and he quickly

passed away. he's not allowed to have visitors. he dies without his family. he dies with a nurse holding his hand. and we see this again and again and again throughout this pandemic. that is taking its toll on america's medical personnel. i don't care how you feel about masks, i don't care how you feel about what is true and what isn't true, it is undeniable that after eight or nine months of dealing with this pandemic, our medical personnel in the hospitals are burned out, exhausted and need some help. >> dr. patel, your thoughts to all of this? >> i can't agree more with your and lenny's -- and i want to thank lenny, because that -- it's not often you can have access inside of a hospital and you really do have to see those emotionally raw moments and i practice in a clinic setting, not in a hospital, so even my friends that are in clinics with

covid patients like we are don't see what you just expressed beautifully, lenny, and i think that just to be candid, to bring it back to kind of where we are, you know, dr. atlas did more damage in 130 days than you could possibly imagine and it's being reflected in what lenny described. we've got people who, even as they're dying in the hospital ward, don't necessarily agree that we should wear masks, for example. and that does take its toll, not just on medical workers, it takes its toll on the people driving buses, people operating machinery, the people delivering our mail, it takes its toll on everyone. >> dr. patel, i don't know if this is right or not, but my feeling right now is that there's more covid out there than at any other point and i feel more scared and i've always worn my mask but i've always gone to the grocery store, i've gone to walmart. what should and should not

people be doing right now in their own lives and is feeling scared -- is that right? is that irrational? >> i -- no, it's not irrational, nicolle. i think feeling scared is totally normal. look, if it helps to hear it out loud, i'm scared, too, and i'm scared because i've got little kids, i've got elderly parents that i haven't visited in a year and i worry that i'm not going to be able to see them if they get sick, but here's what i want to tell you. i think we need to turn that fear and that kind of feeling of doom, turn that into something proactive. if, you know, only 70% of americans wore masks, then we could actually kind of flatten this curve. so, when you think about walmart or when you think about the grocery store, just be incredibly vigilant about your surroundings. you are right, nicolle. we are seeing patients who have sworn up and down to me that they have not been out of their home and they do wear masks and they're positive. but that just tells you how -- it's called viral spread for a

reason. and i want people to hear that they can take measures, but you must be vigilant. and here's something i'll share with you, in medicine, the doctors i work with every day, we actually go into the medical room clinic and hospital assuming everyone has covid. and i don't want you to act paranoid, but i want you to kind of think that way, nicolle. just take notice of your action as if people around you had covid. that might make you a little more vigilant. but acknowledge your fear and then turn that into something that you can actually use to kind of help flatten the curve. it's the only way it's going to happen if we all do it together. >> lenny, i saw you nodding. i guess i want to ask you what we can do for the nurse that is featured in your story, who is doing more than any -- well, dr. patel is able to do, but someone like me, there are a lot of us that can't do more to help. we are on the other side of that divide. we're the family members that would have to drop off our loved ones at the door to the

emergency room, wouldn't be allowed inside. so, what do those nurses and doctors need from the rest of us? >> well, your support. if you remember, at the beginning of the pandemic, when it was running through new york, people would come out onto the street at 7:00 at night and they would applaud and they would bang pots and pans and they would scream "thank you" -- that has faded away. we don't do that anymore. and yet, the people in wisconsin who are going through the surge are going through a surge like the one that went through -- that folks went through in new york, that other caregivers went through in new york. so please, offer your support, your encouragement, your thanks, to people like that nurse. systemically, they need a break. they need help. they need relief. and we're going the wrong way. we are now talking about emergency standards of care in this country because there are

100,000, or just about, covid patients in america's hospitals, those hospitals are full to capacity or overcapacity in certain places and now we're starting to talk about the notion of rationing care. some people may not get the level of care that is customary for their illness. and that's the wrong direction. new york state is identifying retired doctors and nurses and bringing them back into the system to try to give these folks some relief. so, from a systemic point of view, anyone who can do something like that should so that these people can have a little bit of respite. >> i want to put both of you on the spot and ask you to come back for that conversation. i don't think people understand how much danger we're in, even if we're not pulling up to a hospital with covid, but it's a terrible time, it would seem, to have a heart attack or to have

any other health crisis, so if we could promise to reconvene and have that conversation. i'm going to thank you, lenny, for an incredible piece of reporting and you, dr. patel, for always keeping it real with all of us. thank you so much. up next for us, what team biden is calling plain and simple grift. one of donald trump's last acts before leaving office might just be a con against his own supporters. ♪

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well, donald trump's huge and ever so frail e go is a par of why he hasn't conceded the election he lost to joe biden nearly a month ago. starting to look like his bank account might also be a factor. "new york times" reports today that trump's campaign has raised about $170 million since election day through a dizzying spell of emails claiming election fraud and asking supporters for cash. the catch, 75% of each donation goes toward a pac that can be used to fund donald trump's post election activities. joining us now is marketing and branding expert donnie deutsch and mara gay, msnbc contributor. her first two-mile run today in her covid recovery, congrats to you, my marathon runner. donnie, let me start with you. there is no reason to send your money to donald trump. even if you like him. don't give him your money.

give it to the food bank. he doesn't need your money. please, why are they still giving him their money? >> a lot of people are idiots. i mean, i don't know how to put it any other way. you know, he sent out more emails in the week after the election than the week before the election. what else does that tell you? look, donald trump is a huxster. he's got $900 million in debt. and he's not liquid. donald trump, he can have a net worth of $2 billion or a billion and a half dollars, but there's no liquidity there and he needs money. >> donnie, you're talking rich people talk. let me just put it -- he's a grifter who is taking your money to pay defense lawyers -- >> good, thank you. >> i mean, forget about his business debt, he's stealing from his supporters. >> yes. yes, yes. by the way, nicolle, i can't do

it any better than you just did it. yes, yes, and yes. and people are stupid. and he is a grifter. and he will continue to do that. he stole from a charity. you know -- >> yeah. >> and by the way, the new york state attorney general is going to have more to say about that. he stole from his charity. he loathes the people that voted for them. he, in effect, grifted them with the tax cut. his voters, that middle of america, that red state, more red meat stuff, they got screwed over in the tax plan. guys like me benefited from that tax plan. so, you know, he will screw anybody and anything, like, i don't know what other than to say, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. people are stupid, okay? >> mara gay, i'm flirting -- >> i want to come up with something more insightful to that. >> it's perfect, it's perfect. mara, i started watching a little bit of "schitt's creek" and there's a scene in the beginning, they're in the mansion, and they come in because they're broke and they take all their fancy, you know,

gucci luggage to the motel in the town, and that's what i think of when i think or donald trump on january 20th. he and ivanka and jared packing up their stuff and going back to their gold-plated toilet apartment. but on the way out, to steal from their supporters, to steal from the kind of donors who gave small mundo nationey donations, don't have to give him anymore money. why is this tolerated, this theft, from trump's voters? you know, i mean, it's really easy to joke about, because it is just so absurd, of course, but there is something that's extremely dark here, several things. one is, you know, it really is a really upsetting measure of the depth of the president's support and also of the role, outside role that he and his supporters may continue to play and not, you know, in our democracy and not really from a place of

reality, from something much darker. so, that's concerning to me and certainly you know that there are members of congress, republicans who are looking at that, that fund-raising tally and think maybe they should stick with trumpism instead of democracy, so, that's a concern. it's really also just abominable on a human level to do this to your supporters. i think it also shows you that donald trump has built this deep mystique around him that really is about, essentially saying to people, hey, this is aspirational, you, too, can be a winner. and i think, you know, it's really based in nothing that's real. unfortunately, it is also the latest in a very long, again, dark tradition in american policies, where you really divide people based on race who actually otherwise would have a lot more in common than with

people like donald trump. and that is what donald trump has done. and it's really tragic. >> as you're talking, mara, i'm thinking about one of his sons who said in an interview, he's just a blue collar billionaire. i mean, the whole thing is issu a scam, that he acted common in a way that he thought a common person would act as an act. and i -- i hear all of what you're saying about how dark and sinister it is -- it is real vealing the depth of his support. but i wonder if it's even legal. i mean, can you take money for a legal fight that your own attorney general has said is fruitless? i mean, do you think there are any legal questions? about pilfering money from your supporters for a legal fight that is nonexistent? >> let me be clear that new york officials are not going to stop looking into the charity. and, in fact, donald trump may try and pardon himself,

whomever, i don't know, before he leaves the white house, his family, but he will be unable to issue any pardons for any state and local crimes, so, that's something to keep an eye on, i'm not an attorney, but i do think there are a lot of questions there, but it's really sad, because i think there are some americans who are being scammed by this president and what they're being told, quite honestly, is whiteness. that's it. and it's sad. >> donnie, i'll give you the last word. >> yeah, i agree with mara. you know what those people are holding onto, it's not even about donald trump, it's about that, no, maybe this country, by the year 2040, is not going to be a minority white country. they can't face that. the one thing that i want to say is a little more life affirming and i mentioned this, i do not believe donald trump is going to have a hold on the world in the next coming year two, three years, the world moves on. nicolle, you know that, you

worked on presidential campaigns, he'll become a media character, which he always was, but i think as the economy continues to do well and as we have infrastructure bills and things are just a little nicer in the world, i think, yes, the fringe will be there, but it won't be 70 million people, it will be 20 or 30 million people. donald trump is not going to be the donald trump that we know, the powerful donald trump, the oz donald trump, in the next 18 months. watch. we're still in the final, final residue, the despicable residue of the last four years, but he will not be this larger than life character a year or two from now. >> i want to agree with you, and i just -- i know there's a lot of feeling, especially among viewers of our hour, that we should move on, and i think the newsworthiness of what he does in the final 50 days is here, the new administration is here, but i think you're right, when he's some two-bit talk show host on a podcast that no one can

find in the apple store, then i'm sure you will right, we will not care. donnie, mara, wonderful to see both of you and mara, congrats on your run. after a break, a scathing rebuke from a conservative stronghold. the latest review of donald trump's final days. the medicare enrollment deadline is monday, which means time is running out to pick a medicare plan. with so many changes, do you know if your plan is still the right fit? having the wrong plan may cost you thousands of dollars out of pocket.

and that's why i love healthmarkets, your insurance marketplace. with healthmarkets' fitscore, they compare thousands of plans from national insurance companies to find the right medicare plan that fits you. call or visit healthmarkets to find your fitscore today. in minutes, you can find out if your current plan is the right fit, and once you've let the fitscore do the work, sit back and enjoy not having to shop for insurance again. healthmarkets' fitscore forever technology will continuously scan the market for the best coverage at the best price. so you can shop once and save again and again and again. rest easy, knowing you'll have the right plan, at the right price, and the right fit for you. best of all, their services are completely free. does your plan have $0 copays, $0 deductibles, and $0 premiums? if not, maybe it's not the right fit. does it include dental and vision coverage? well, if not, maybe it's not the right fit. how about hearing aid, glasses, and even telemedicine, at no additional cost? maybe there's a better fit for you. call healthmarkets now, or visit healthmarkets.com

for your free fitscore. they can instantly compare thousands of medicare plans with all these benefits and more, including plans that may let you keep your doctor and save money. healthmarkets doesn't just work for one insurance company. they work to help you, and they do it all for free. having helped enroll americans in millions of policies, while earning an a-plus customer satisfaction rating from the better business bureau, you can trust healthmarkets. with the annual medicare enrollment deadline coming, go to healthmarkets.com, or call right now. your insurance marketplace. healthmarkets. find your fitscore and get your answers today. to get the most out of medicare. call the number on your screen or visit healthmarkets.com

conservative fixture of the national review out today with a

scathing editorial titled trump's disgraceful end game. there are question about the security of mail-in ballots but make no mistake the chief driver of the post election contention of the past several weeks is the pet you'llent refusal of one man to accept. working back words to try to find something, anything to support the president's aggrieved feelings rather than considering the evidence and reacting as warranted. almost nothing that the trump team has alleged has with stood the slightest scrutiny and flawed and dishonest assertions pollute the public discourse and mislead good people would make the mistake of believing things said by the president of the united states. let's bring into our conversation, steve schmidt and co-founder of the lincoln project. steve, i keep thinking once

trump is gone, who is culpable for the fact that 70 million americans don't believe that joe biden won in a free and fair election and it's everybody that waited until right now to speak out and i'm heartened that bill barr today told the a.p. that there is no evidence of fraud anywhere. there is nothing to investigate because there isn't any. but it seems like all of the people that screwed on the arms and legs of frankenstein are now mad that he's a monster. >> for sure. and we watched it happen all through the month of november. a historic month. i think we'll look back on this as one of the most historic months of the last 100 years because it was the month not just that joe biden was elected president, it was the month where american democracy was poisoned intentionally, deliberately with lies. the purpose of it was to snuff out faith and belief in the system in the eyes of the

american people to protect donald trump's ego, his feelings, maybe to maintain him in power. we were actually having discussions a week or so ago about whether there were efforts that were going to move to state legislators, state legislatures where they would strip the voice of the people and appoint electors sympathetic to trump. it is way farce but also a coup. a first attempted coup on american soil and let's call it what it was and not a word from the marco rubios and the lindsey grahams and the republican senators. this whole enterprise requires the people, the whole of us, to believe in the fairness and legitimacy of the system and it is fair and legitimate. and this is how we pick our leaders. >> so, steve, as joe biden goes about the business of governing

this country that is basically been leader-less for the last four years today he named an economic team. i want to show it to you and then ask you how we make sure that men like marco rubio and john cornyn don't revert back like the last four years didn't happen and try to block competent public servants because of a mean tweet. the irony could give you a heart attack. let's watch joe biden first. >> today i have the pleasure, i have the pleasure of announcing key nominations and appoints for the critical economic positions in the administration. a first rate team that is going to get us through this ongoing economic crisis and help us build the economy back, not just build it back, but build it back better than it was before. a team that is tested and experienced. and t includes ground-breaking americans who come from different backgrounds but share any core vision for economic relief here in the united states

of america. >> steve. >> well, look, i think the president-elect has been nearly flawless since the election in his tone, and his messured response to trump's insanity. he has a tremendous job ahead. a difficult job. the country is in one of the gravest crises its ever been. you have a political party in the opposition that have been sort of vandals of the american system. they are pledging to make the president-elect fail, to sabotage the recovery of the country for what? it is so neo liftic and so i think that the president-elect is going to have reach out with his hands open and good faith to the american people and tell the truth about the people that are

stopping any positive development from happening in the country because they're so vested in their games. it is like a game of mean girls from a middle school in a movie, right. the total nonfunctionality by these republicans who debased and degraded themselves in service of trump for the last four years. >> do you think they fall down whether the sort of actor, and i think to trump it really was largely an act and it is like the last gasping of his last performance that leads to the pathetic displays that are being contradicted by bill barr, who was almost slavish to donald trump while he was the president. i mean, do you think without him in the center ring they collapse on their own hypocrisy? >> well, i don't -- they haven't paid a price for their hypocrisy. and whatever degree of hypocrisy

we're talking about, they long ago maxed it, they long ago maxed it out. politics in america will become more extreme. you see that in the enormous audience displacement from fox to news max and even more extreme right wing news media that has taken place over the month of november, all of these presidential candidates who were keying up 2024, including trump talking about it again. every one of them will be invested in the conspiracy theory that this was the stolen election. so this is -- this is all of it is going to get crazier and crazier. it is not going to moderate any time soon. >> haunting words from my friend steve schmidt, thank you for spending some time with us. good to see you my friend. when we come back, escalations in donald trump's war being waged against members of his own party and how republicans now fear it will backfire

spectacularly. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere. k a medicare . with so many changes, do you know if your plan is still the right fit? k a medicare . having the wrong plan may cost you thousands of dollars out of pocket. and that's why i love healthmarkets, your insurance marketplace. with healthmarkets' fitscore, they compare thousands of plans from national insurance companies to find the right medicare plan that fits you. call or visit healthmarkets to find your fitscore today. in minutes, you can find out if your current plan is the right fit, and once you've let the fitscore do the work, sit back and enjoy not having to shop for insurance again. healthmarkets' fitscore forever technology will continuously scan the market for the best coverage at the best price. so you can shop once and save again and again and again. rest easy, knowing you'll have the right plan, at the right price, and the right fit for you. best of all, their services are completely free. does your plan have $0 copays, $0 deductibles, and $0 premiums?

if not, maybe it's not the right fit. does it include dental and vision coverage? well, if not, maybe it's not the right fit. how about hearing aid, glasses, and even telemedicine, at no additional cost? maybe there's a better fit for you. call healthmarkets now, or visit healthmarkets.com for your free fitscore. they can instantly compare thousands of medicare plans with all these benefits and more, including plans that may let you keep your doctor and save money. healthmarkets doesn't just work for one insurance company. they work to help you, and they do it all for free. having helped enroll americans in millions of policies, while earning an a-plus customer satisfaction rating from the better business bureau, you can trust healthmarkets. with the annual medicare enrollment deadline coming, go to healthmarkets.com, or call right now. your insurance marketplace. healthmarkets. find your fitscore and get your answers today. to get the most out of medicare. call the number on your screen or visit healthmarkets.com

i've got a relationship with the president and when there is a need in arizona, i talk to him directly. we've had so much outreach personally from both the president and the vice president that i had to change the ring tone on my phone and it rings "hail to the chief" because i didn't want to miss another phone call directly from the white house.

♪ >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in the east. as people close to donald trump could attest to him, being irrelevant is a fate worse than death so no better symbol than the end of trump's relevance than what you saw there, arizona's republican governor doug ducey ignoring an incoming call from the trump white house while at the very same moment certifying his state's election results for joe biden. keep in mind governor ducey is no anti-trumper at all. he has shown strong support for the president including traveling to d.c. to see trump accept the republican party presidential nomination and attending trump rallies in arizona where most attendees were maskless as his state's virus cases were on the rise. but a state turning blue for the first time there 24 years and a

governor who would not engage in the false theories that was rigged. he tweeted that the results were certified, why is he rushing to put a democrat in office especially when so many horrible things regarding voter fraud will be revealed. republicans will long remember and the governor responded in a nine-part tweet articulating the security of the voting system and explaining how biden's win there was simply accurate. the threat ended with that is the law. i've sworn an oath to uphold it and i take my job seriously. he is not the only republican governor that trump has his knives out. he was ashamed that he endorsed brian camp back in 2018 now that he was not over valuing the voters of their state in the election results. yesterday he called kemp hapless. but the biggest rebuke of

trump's fantasy and false claim came from inside of the house, from someone inside his own administration. someone who has been all too willing to do the president's bidding and subvert the rule of law. attorney general bill barr speaking about the department of justice's investigation told the a.p., quote, to date we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election. the trump campaign legal teach pushed back saying, quote, with the greatest respect to the a.g., his opinion is without any knowledge or investigation of the substantial irregularities and evidence of systemic fred, evidence trump's team has not been able to produce in court or on tv or anywhere else. they've lost dozens of cases in the weeks since the election. a president taking no prisoners in his war against democracy is where we start this hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. elizabeth newman from threat

prevention and security policy at the department of homeland security and now an adviser to a republican political reliance is back and also joining us our friend senator claire mccaskill and jonathan lemire. claire, i have to start with you. no one is throwing a parade for bill barr. but it is an indication of how bad this is for trump. how bogus his claims of fraud really are. that bill barr, who is pretty good at finding a kern el of something trump likes and blowing it up to where he's repelled prosecutors and he can't find anything, can't find any evidence of fraud and has to idea what trump and rudy giuliani are talking about. >> let's take a step back. on sunday night, donald trump's choice to head up election security went on 60 minutes and

said as plainly as it could be said that there what those fraud, that 95% of the ballots were backed up with paper ballots that were auditable and the hand counts match the machine counts and once again there was no fraud. that was the first blow. then the second blow came today when barr, who appears to have been willing to do almost anything for donald trump, finally drew the line and said, nope, not doing that. i'm not going to pretend there is evidence when there is no evidence. there is no fraud that is sufficient to do anything to overturn this election. let's move along here. now my favorite part of today was ron johnson. okay, hapless ron johnson. he comes up with this statement, i mean it is just hysterical. he comes up with a statement, well, i want him to show me the evidence that there is no fraud.

yo hoo, ron, you don't show no evidence. that is why there is nothing to show. that is why you have nothing -- that is why the president has nothing and that is why his clown car of pretend lawyers has nothing. so i would say to my colleagues that served in the senate, it is now time. it is time. you've got crebs and barr ba, t is all you need an step up and talk about democracy and the will of the voters, finally. it is time. >> let me follow up with you and i thank you from the bottom of my heart for finding something funny about all of this because you're right ron johnson is if nothing else come he haddicly hapless. you've got in john bolton and bill barr a right winger's right winger. the two of them together are all of the sort of cover you need if you want to join the rest of us

in reality, where joe biden won a decisive and sizable electoral college victory over donald trump in an election that was quote, the most secure in our nation's history. it is more than time, claire. they've done a world of damage by wait as long as they have. but at some point it's beyond doing damage and it looks like they're participating in something with the intent to harm. >> there will be tens of millions of americans that will never believe in our elections again. now that's sad. that is not funny. that is depressing. and this president has delivered that with the able assistance, with the co-conspirators of republican office holders. look no farther than him going after his own people and republican elected officials that are following the law. i mean, who would ever have thought we would get to the

point that a sitting president would attack members of his own party for respecting the law. and that is where we are. >> yeah, elizabeth, we're officially through the looking glass when any leader, any person is a public servant who gets their paycheck from their constituents makes headlines by just doing their job but that is where we are. especially if they're republicans. claire raised chris krebs and he was in your department of homeland security. i want to show you something that he said this morning on the "today" show with savannah guthrie. >> it is certainly more dangerous language, more dangerous behavior and the way i look at it is that we're a nation of laws, and i plan to take advantage ever those laws. i've got a exceptional team of lawyers that win in court and i think they're probably going to be busy. >> you feel like there is legal action that might arise from comments like that.

>> we're taking a look at all of our available opportunities. >> are you worried about your safety, sir. this is not the first death threat unfortunately. >> i'm not going to give them the benefit of knowing how i'm reacting to this. they could know there are things coming, though. >> that is chris krebs responding to a comment from trump's one time lawyer joe degenoa who said he should be killed and very violent fashion. there is more sound that has come in this afternoon from the georgia official in secretary of state raffensperger's office. and we'll talk about the danger that both men are in. >> mr. president, you have not condemned these actions or this language. senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. this has to stop. we need you to step up and for to you take a position of leadership, show some.

this is elections. this is the backbone of democracy and all of you who have not said a damn word are complicit in this. it's too much. yes, fight for every legal vote. go through your due process. we encourage you to use your first amendment, that is fine. death threats, physical threats, intimidation, it's too much. it is not right. they've lost the moral high ground to claim that it is. >> elizabeth. >> man, isn't that moving. look, if i take a step back and if we were having this conversation a year ago not in the context of an election or targeted violence that at hooxs associated with the election, i would be explaining that extremism works where you have people holding extremist views, some of those are just kind of

weird and some of those could be in the realm of hate and then you have violent extremists who write to -- try to plant de humanizing conspiracy theories so that you slowly but surely begin to view your enemy, your political or other person that you disagree with as less than human. so we create this other context and the more that we dehumanize our enemy, the easier it becomes to take that next step to think that violence might be okay. human beings, we're designed, we're programmed not to kill each other, right. that is kind of our baseline. so conspiracy theoryists have to come up with another alternative narrative that leads you to think that we're facing a threat that you and your livelihood is in danger and therefore it is okay to go and commit an act of violence against this enemy that you have. and sadly in this country, we have made mainstream for

millions of americans extremist views. and it doesn't take very much for somebody trying to insight violence, whether intentionally or not, it doesn't take much for them to place suggestions and you have vulnerable individuals, you have mentally unwell individuals who hold the extreme views and they're more than happy, they may feel compelled if this is the ome choice they have to take the next steps and carry out an act of violence. so i take us back to the moment that we're in. a moment that many professionals have been warning about for the last few months. that the president amplifies this extremist movement that existed before he was here. but he has accelerated, it he pours fuel on the fire and by not having voices within his movement, voices that supported trump, voices that otherwise we have expected would come out and say, hey, it is photo kay to call for acts of violence, those

voices being silent contributes further to vulnerable individuals potentially choosing to walk down that path towards violence. we are at a very precarious moment in time. it is really important, this isn't about politics, this not about who won the election or the inauguration. it is about making sure that something doesn't happen that we all regret. it is time for elected republican leaders to stand up with one voice and say, enough. we're not going to use violent rhetoric to counteract a political loss. we will regroup and go to the voting booth in two years, if that is how we fight our political fight. it is not through violent rhetoric. and we really need some of the politicians stand up and say enough is enough. because there is a lot at stake here. there are people's lives at risk and this is not who we are as people. >> we've had a lot of conversations about politics and the trump white house, but i've

never heard you sort of lay out what i imagine your job in government was which is a threat assessment. i just want to make sure i understand what you're saying. are you concerned that this language could sort of tip the scales and insight someone to commit an act of violence? >> absolutely. i mean those death threats that have been referenced that you just played, i mean, they're real people behind that. not all of those death threats are people that are actually going to carry something out. but it makes the job for law enforcement very difficult, the more voices you have, spouting violent rhetoric, you have to investigate all of those and it is hard to pick out what is the one or two people that are actually going to go out and carry out the attack. it is extremely hard for law enforcement to stay on top of. but we're in a volatile moment. it is -- i really do understand that for the average republican

elected official, they're just waiting for donald trump to leave office. they think all of this is going to blow over and i think they need to understand that there is just a lot more at stake here. we do have very vulnerable group of people in our country, they are believing in conspiracy theories and there was a lot of rhetoric online and it is moved to more mainstream media sources an we're hearing people call into talk shows and there was a pastor that called for violence, eric mctax who is a famous conservative author in the conservative world, he called for -- he used violent rhetoric last week. it is becoming more mainstream and it is going to incite someone to carry out a violence of attack. >> are we sure that isn't what donald trump wants? >> that is hard to say, nicolle. he has not himself directly

called for violence but there is no question that his rhetoric at times has crossed line and could be considered dangerous and this is not the first time. we know throughout his presidency there were moments that he has strayed so far from normal where he has depicted immigrants as other, as insects, less than human to echo what your previous guest just said. where he has at times painted democrats in terms as traitors. they suggested they should be tried for treason. a crime in this country that calls for the death penalty. these are violent acts. and certainly we know the statistics are there that hate crimes have gone up under his time in office, that white supremacist groups have profited, had grown and have committed more acts of violence during his time in office. so even if he is not directly calling for it, certainly it seems like he's giving license to it. that is the concern throughout his time as both candidate and

president. that he has given almost a permission structure for people though act upon their worst impulses and to treat what would be a political rival into a mortal enemy, someone who is deserving of a violent act delivered to them. >> and jonathan, there is such a long history of people confronting him with the dangers that his words create. and i know "the new york times" editor went and saw him when he was screaming from the rooftops that the president was the enemy of the people. and talked about how journalists, not necessarily working in this country, but around the world, are endangered by that language and he shrugged and didn't care. so you also had lots of people, even from within his own circle calling on him to apologize for telling the proud boys to stand by. i wonder what the reporting suggests about the people around him. i mean, are they aware of what

elizabeth neumann just articulated the threat to be of this rhetoric. i mean these are people that are as close to the president as anyone calling for the president's critics from inside his own party and inside his own government to be harmed. >> certainly in the past, nicolle, there has been some voices within the west wing or in his immediate circle of outside adviser wloz have encouraged him to tone down some of the rhetoric. we have not seen that be successful through his time in office. perhaps he will -- let's recall a year or so ago with congresswoman omar, when the send her back chants were chilling to republicans because they were so xenophobic and so racist that he was suggesting that an american congresswoman didn't belong in the country and it was word from mcconnell's office to the president that got him to back away from that. because they were so afraid of not necessarily that his words were moral a wrong but afraid of

the imagery of a crowd of thousands of people at a trump ral rally chanting that offensive and racist slogan. so that is a rare moment where it has worked but these are few and far between. in this particular moment, there hasn't been a sense that anyone has told him to tone down his rhetoric. the circle around him, is so small, it is a few advisers as many have walked away and abandoned him and he's being propped up by rudy giuliani and chief of staff meadows and some are the few voices that he's listening to, none of them are telling him to stop the rets orric or warning him about the potential danger. so i don't think we should anticipate that stopping any time soon because he makes day baseless claims undermining the tenants of this democracy. >> i want to leave this, i don't think this could be seen by enough people or heard by enough people. these are the words of the

georgia election official calling out the consequence of all of this behavior that we've all been discussing. mr. president, you have not condemned these actions or this language. senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. this has to stop. we need you to step up and if you're going to take a position of leadership, show some. do we have that. could we play that one more time? i'm going to play this. >> mr. president, you have not condemned these actions or this language. senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. this has to stop. we need you to step up and for you to take a position of leadership, show some. this is elections. this is the backbone of democracy and all of you who have not said a damn word are complicit in this. it's too much. yes, fight for every legal vote. go through your due process.

we encourage you, use your first amendment, that is fine. death threats, physical threats, intimidation, it's too much. it is not right. they have lost the moral high ground to claim that it is. >> republican senators don't owe me an answer but they owe gabriel sherman an answer for this conduct. thank you for starting us off on another surreal day of news. claire is sticking around for more. news that rudy giuliani discussed a pardon for him with donald trump as we learn about new details about the pardon and sweeping scope of mike flynn, the broadest since richard nixon's pardon and now a top trump alley is pushing for a donald trump self pardon. and plus as president-elect joe biden rolls out his economic team, republicans are singling out one ever his nominees for

harsh criticism and getting called out for their hypocrisy and a rebuke from the head of the fda after the wouse demands to know why he hasn't moved faster to approve a vaccine for coronavirus. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started. an official message from medicare. did you try it yet? comparing plans? oh yeah. they sure can change year to year. i found lower premiums - and lower prescription costs. and those new insulin savings! hundreds of plans, $35 a month. that'll save you money. so uh, mark? on medicare.gov now. open enrollment ends dec 7th. comparing plans... ...really pays. paid for by the u.s. department of health & human services.

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it is just a little nickname he gave himself like the stuff on his hats. donald trump, law and order president. irony there, about as subtle as a frying pan to the foreled particularly given how trump and his allies have positioned themselves to stand above the law. just in the last few days, we told you about rudy giuliani, discussing a preemptive pardon, a bizarre thing to want for christmas if you've done nothing wrong. and then there is michael flynn who pleaded guilty multiple times to lying to the fbi about his contacted with the russian

ambassador and he was pardoned last week but yesterday we got our first look at the formal language of the pardon contained in a court filing. it turns out the law and order president absolved flynn of any and all possible offenses connected to the mueller investigation. legal experts told politico it is perhaps the broadest act of clemency since gerald ford pardoned flixon in 1974. that pardon came after nixon's lawyers suggested he pardon himself. and as it happens, that is a possibility that is still on the table for trump considering his legal exposure once he leaves office. last week a former member of robert mueller's team andrew weissmann wrote in "the new york times" as painful it is for the country i believe the next attorney general should prosecute him for potential federal crimes and that sparked this from sean hannity. >> i read that and i said on the air today on radio, i said, this

three years this guy did this. and if that is what they want to do, if biden ever became president, would you tell trump pardon yourself and pardon your family. these people are based on a phony dossier. >> just be safe, right. just pardon yourself and your whole family. joining our conversation, chuck rosenberg, a former u.s. attorney who worked on the staff of both robert mueller and james comey and now the host of the podcast the oath beginning its fourth season tomorrow and we'll talk about that in a little bit. and also back with us claire mccaskill. explain this to me chuck, are there limitations if you go about the legal world in the business community having being pardoned reemtively. does it look like you're not such a law-abiding human. >> well as a legal matter, no it re-sets to zero. you are absolved, nicolle.

but from a small key political perspective, sure. because there is a real old supreme court case called burdick that goes back to 1915 and it is about pardons and what the cord said is that accepting a pardon is a confession of guilt. and that a pardon carries with it an imputation, implication of guilt. does it leave a mark you bet it does. but legally your absolved. >> we've spent years trying to read the tea leaves and understand why mike flynn lied when he had all of the thortd to redirect foreign democracy to a pro-russian policy and trump was so openly affectionate toward vladimir putin, there was no reason to lie either. does this pardon that may have

be been scrutinized by mueller, reassure us that those questions are justified? >> well, look, that is a really interesting question. by the way, nicolle, general flynn had other options. he could have refused to talk. he could have told the truth. why he lied still remains a bit of a mystery to me because he must have known as the former hefd of the defense intelligence agency that his conversations with the russians would have been recorded. and so the fbi knew what he said. the russians knew what he said. general flynn knew what he said so why he lied remains a mystery. to your question, look, the pardon was sweeping and it does absolve flynn legally. but there are still plenty of unanswered questions. by the way, a pardon doesn't mean that he never has to testify again. prosecutors could subsequently put flynn in the grand jury and ask him a whole bunch of questions like they could any

other citizen, you and me or claire mccaskill if they were so inclines. so, while he's absolved legally, he would still have an ongoing obligation to tell the truth. one problem, he's not very good at that. >> he's not. claire, what is the public to make of this pardon palooza that sean hannity is a lot of things but he does view himself as someone that gets out in front of donald trump to soften the ground for things that he suspected might be coming. so why are they trying to sell this mass pardon and something that is needed if they haven't all in the recesses of their mind contemplating the fact that they probably have criminal exposure. >> well, we know that donald trump has played fast and loose with the rules. we watch it in realtime every day. and that applies to what he's done in his business also.

and i think chuck will back me up here, a huge chunk of federal cases rerevolve around financial crimes and lying to the irs, i don't think it is a stretch for any of us to think that donald trump is a liar and it is certainly not a stretch to think that he's a liar about his finances. so, i think they are worried and i think this sweeping language of pardon is being trotted out as a first chapter in the book of trying to figure out ways to protect him and his family from what might happen after he leaves office. particularly by state prosecutors in new york. and by the, that pardon doesn't help him there. i think that is important to remember. the other thing he has to remember is everybody he pardons

and chuck can correct me if i'm wrong, but it hasn't been that long since i was in a criminal kro courtroom,co take the fifth amendment if he's been pardoned for those crimes. so everyone that he pardons no longer could clam up with the protection of the fifth amendment. so this is a perilous path he's going down and i wish we didn't have to see how it ends because i have a feeling it might get ugly. >> chuck, i'll let you fact check anything. i don't think claire got anything wrong. but i want to ask if you agree with andrew weissmann that no one is above the law and that he should be prosecuted of federal crimes if he's committed any. >> number one, agree with claire. i'm not sure i agree with andrew weissmann. this is really difficult for me. i think about ford's pardon of nixon and ford said at the time

and testified before congress and said we need as a country to look forward and not backward and i would like not to spend the next three years, as much as i enjoy being on your show, talking about donald trump and the crimes he committed. so i'm really, really truly torn. the former federal prosecutor in me agrees with andrew weissmann but i see merit in when gerald ford said and did. by the way, there is some really interesting questions that remain about whether a president can even pardon himself and whether that is effective or constitutional. very much worth talking about. much more to be said on that, i think. >> much more to be said about your interview with robert mueller which i don't think i'm spoiling anything by previewing that and i would like to have you back tomorrow to tell us about everything that you learned and everything you discussed if you're free. >> i would be delighted. he's an american hero and it was a privilege to interview him. >> i'm dying to hear all about that. claire, you have to come back

for that, too. chuck and claire is staying with us longer. thank you. when we come back, joe biden introduces his economic team and the criticism from republicans over a nominee is being met with charges of hypocrisy. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. a. tonight...i'll be eating cheesy cauliflower pizza with extra broccolini. my tuuuurrrrn! tonight...i'll be eating cheesy cauliflower pizza and yummy broccolini! (doorbell rings) thanks. (doorbell rings) thank you. ♪ is that my leotard? no. yes... ehh, you can keep it. which means time is runningt out to pick a medicare plan. with so many changes, do you know if your plan is still the right fit? having the wrong plan may cost you thousands of dollars out of pocket. and that's why i love healthmarkets, your insurance marketplace.

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from the most unequal economic and job crisis in modern history, we could build a new american economy that works for all americans.

our message to anybody struggling right now is this -- help is on the way. president-elect joe biden unveiling his diverse economic team which includes former federal reserve chair janet yellen whos have kosh firmed to be the first woman to lead and the first woman of color chosen to lead the office of budget and management but the pick has become a problem with republican wloz say they plan to fight the nomination are being called out for their hypocrisy including by george conway slamming gop senators writing, quote, republican senators who didn't seem to care that an omb director illegally allowed president to withhold security assistance to a foreign ally so the president could export personal help from that ally in support of whacked out conspiracy theories to bolster the president's re-election campaign think it is potentially

disqualifying that a nominee for that position tweeted uncomplimentary things about them. joining us, geoff bennett, live in wilmington, delaware. claire is still here. geoff, what i find so interesting, is that some of tandens most vocal defenders are people like bill crystal and george conway who understand this long tradition that elections have consequences and when you win an election, you get to pick whom ever you want. and so the reaction is not based on partisanship, it seems to be based on what they're complaining about or crying about mean tweets to them which is insane as they are all still covering up for the lies from america's biggest cyber bully, donald trump. >> yeah, you're right. and look, the criticism isn't based on policy, it is really intensely personal to your point

about controversial or critical things that she has said on twitter and elsewhere. and look, the transition i think is keenly aware of that and so is she. an one of the things that we saw in this the sort of carefully choreographed roll out is that the other biden nominees spoke in deeply personal terms and connected their personal stories to joe biden's policy approach. and that does a couple of things. one is signals his own priority but they bring to bare the lived experience that signals to the american people that they get it. when joe biden talks about reordering the u.s. economy to work for working people, to work for the middle class, when she talked about how her mother as an indian immigrant had to rely on federal housing assistance and food stamps, when tandenler self-was a little girl, and if she confirmed to lead the omb she will be in a direct position to help implement and oversee policies, the same kind of

policies that she benefited from, that is a personal story that is resonates and that in many ways is designed to blunt those kind of partisan attacks. that is one of the reasons where we saw the roll out where the nominees i nominees to introduce themselves to the american people to cut through those on the progressive left. >> claire, it is an interesting and i think highly effective strategy and steve schmidt said something in the last hour that i think is right. president-elect biden should reach out an open hand to the american public and use his now massive bull horn to move public support behind his legislative priorities. because i think moving republicans is a lost cause. what do you think of that strategy? >> well, i think he's got to do two things. one, he needs to do that and make sure that the american people are following this, that he is not just appointing people

who have impressive resumes. he's appointing people who have lived lives that will mirror the experiences of many americans. these are onot only just divers, they're divorce erse in their backgrounds and how they've managed to reach the pinnacle in their career is inspiring and he needs to play on the inspiration. it remains to be seen or as i might forever call you now thanks to leslie jones' nick kay. here is what i want to say about the tweets. are these guys with a straight face they will not confirm a qualified candidate because their feelings we are hurt by some of her tweets. well look no further than the oval office. the president's tweets have been

bruts brutsal to republicans. he is mean to them all of the time. that is why they've gotten so quiet and hide under think desks. but the notion that they would hold her to a different standard is kind of jaw-dropping and it is very interesting to see if that is the hill they want to die on. she doesn't need that many republican votes to get confirmed. she only needs a handful if that, if she needs that if we're successful in georgia if a few weeks. so time will tell if the republicans keep this up. but she's qualified and she's lived an amazing live and it is a sad commentary that her tweets are getting her in trouble. >> i have so much more to say about this. we're going to have to pick this up. this is an entire party brought too their knees based on the fear of the mean tweet. and someone who has called a dog and lived to tell, you wake up the next day and you're still

standing. these are not republican senators who have even been targeted with tweets. it is their fear of a mean tweet from donald trump has forced them to subvert the american democracy and go along with his lie. the only republican elected official who has acknowledged joe biden's victory is liz cheney in the house. there are zero republicans in leadership have acknowledged that joe biden won, because of one reason. their fear of a mean tweet. what a sad and sorry existence. thank you both for smebdsing time with us. breaking news as the cdc votes on who will get the first doses of the coronavirus vaccine. that story is next. at story is t

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vaccine should be offered first to both health care personnel as well as residents of long-term care facilities. joining our conversation right in the nick of time, dr. peter hotez, founding dean of the national school of topical school of medicine at baylor college of medicine. doctor, could you talk about what these decisions mean? are they -- do they have the authority to mandate this, are these guidelines like about school or what they say, does that go or the first vaccines will largely go to the front line health care workers and residents of nursing homes and long-term care facilities? >> well, nicolle, what not many people realize is that most of vaccine policies actually set at the state level. and that is the way it has been set up. so it is the state that makes recommendations on school age vaccines and all of the times we've had to go up against the

anti-vaccine people. you have to do it times 50 because it is different in each state and it makes it complicated and this is probably along the same lines. the states as far as i could tell have the ultimate authority that the acip are recommendations, are just that, they're recommendations. most states will likely follow the recommendations and other states may want to tailor to specific states, that have highly vulnerable industrial workers, ranging from meat packing plants, et cetera, may want to revise some of the guidelines. likelihood is most will adhere to it closely but the states have been doing this for now a few months so it also depends on how far long they are. >> how dependent are we on the manufacturing capabilities of these first companies to develop a vaccine? >> yeah, i mean the exciting part about these vaccines is you

could go very quickly from discovery into the clinic. that is got part. the more complicated part is it is a brands new technology so the scale and the frozen storage is problematic, the storage. the good news there is operation warp speed leadership and general gus have had a lot of time to think about this. it will slow us down somewhat both in terms of the number of doses we have. the hope is we'll have 40 million doses by the end of the year. remember, you have to divide by two. there is two doses two to three weeks apart. that's 20 million individuals and we have 21 million health care workers and 3 million assisted living nursing home residents. that pretty much takes care of the first lop and the hope is we'll have additional doses in the early part of next year, and remember, we have at least two

or three other vaccines coming down the pike. we have the two from as tra sev -- astrazeneca oxford and j and j and the nova vax particle vaccine and our vaccine being scaled up and tested across india. so by the second quarter of next year, we'll be in a very robust program of vaccinating americans and then the hope is we can get to the point where we can even start looking at vaccinating most of the nation, even possibly achieving herd immunity by later in the year if we can get the studies going in kids to start vaccinating kids. the way to look at it is from now on in terms of vaccines, every month will be better than the last month and so we'll see this gradual evolution. >> we will continue to call on you throughout this really remarkable phase with so much suffering right now, so much hope on the horizon.

dr. peter hotez, thank you for spending time with us. up next, as we do every day, we'll remember lives well lived. , we'll remember lives well lived. ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment.

[ engine rumbling ] ♪ [ beeping ] [ engine revs ] ♪ uh, you know there's a 30-minute limit, right? tell that to the rain. [ beeping ] for those who were born to ride, there's progressive. their 45th wedding anniversary was the sunday before thanksgiving. they wanted to renew their vows but after a lifetime spent side by side when jackie woodwards took the alter that day, she did so by herself because at that point her beloved husband, gary,

who she met when she was a teenager was fighting coronavirus. she went through with it to show her support while gary was being cared for in the very hospital where he's worked for some 25 years as a renowned icu team leader. in fact, according to wsmv in nashville, the entire woodward family, gary, jackie and their three daughters all work in health care. when the pandemic started, she says she and her husband knew that working on the front lines meant they might eventually test positive. he had no underlying health conditions and yet, in the early morning hours of this past saturday, gary woodward died of the coronavirus. he liked golf, music and loved his six wonderful grandchildren and of course, he loved his high school sweet heart jackie. gary woodward was only 65 years old. we will be right back. s only 65 old. we will be right back. [ whispering ]

what's this? oh, are we kicking karly out? we live with at&t.

it was a lapse in judgment. at&t, we called this house meeting because you advertise gig-speed internet, but we can't sign up for that here. yeah, but i'm just like warming up to those speeds. you've lived here two years. the personal attacks aren't helping, karly. don't you have like a hot pilates class to get to or something? [ muffled scream ] stop living with at&t. xfinity can deliver gig to the most homes.

thank you for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melbur starts now. this crucial vote coming in tonight on who gets the covid vaccine first, the cdc ruling and announcing this vaccine will go first to health care workers and nursing home residents. that's a development that may sound logical but this is official. another sign of the planning for these coming vaccines. also, new reports about how president trump and his top officials are rushing to use their powers in government before they run out. the intelligence committee chair adam schiff joins me live on that story tonight. there are several angles. news how trump's legal strategy has basically got the top government lawyer that donald trump used to praise most now under cutting him and that's our top story now. attorney general barr saying