hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. as the breaking pardon news from donald trump white house has started to come down in buckets. new developments make clear that donald trump will leave office the same way he came in. under a cloud of suspicion. since this hour yesterday, we've learned from "the new york times" that trump is indeed considering preemptive pardons for his family. quote, trump has told others that he is concerned a biden justice department might secret try bugs against him by targeting the oldest three of his five children. donald trump, eric trump and ivanka trump, as well as her husband, jared kushner, a white house senior adviser. the white house hasn't commented on the reporting and a source tells nbc news trump is considering the pardons because he feels embattled, not because he thinks his family has done

anything illegal. each has faced potential exposure in at least one criminal investigation since trump's presidency began. we should all keep in mind that this is the very president said to be operating like a criminal begrade by andrew mccabe, then the number two at the fbi who was so alarmed by the conduct he witnessed in trump's earliest weeks in office that he opened a counterintelligence probe into the president of the united states. mccabe in his book likens the vibe inside trump world to the russian mobsters he'd investigated. the message, quote, this is a dangerous business and it's a bad neighborhood. if you want my protection, i can protect you. and it is in that vein that another bombshell drops since we were last on the air. a court filing unsealed yesterday revealed for the very first time that the justice department is investigating a bribery scheme related to this white house and their dispensing of presidential pardons. nbc news reporting that that

investigation, quote, may involves at least two individuals who acted as lobbyists to senior white house officials to secure a pardon or reprieve of sentence for one individual whose name is redacted. and that reporting is based on heavily redacted court documents which do not indicate whether any white house officials had knowledge of the bribery scheme and do not mention donald trump directly. "new york times" adds to our understand of that report this way, quote, the two people may have offered to funnel money as political donations in exchange for the pardon or commutation, although it was unclear where the money was supposed to be sent. "the times" also notes that this revelation coming on the heels of trump's discussions about pardoning his kids, quote, raised fears that the pardon process may have been corrupted. that distinct possibility as trump weighs what could be a flood of upcoming pardons is where we start today. andrew weissman, former fbi

general council is back. also joining us, "new york times" washington correspondent mike schmidt is back, and yamiche alcindor, white house correspondent for pbs news hour. mike, take us through this reporting. at this hour yesterday, we knew that giuliani and trump had been in discussions about a pardon. the story developed hours later to include trump and all of his kids. what gives? >> yeah, the president telling advisers that he fears a biden justice department would secret try bugs against him by going after his children. now, his children may, indeed, have some criminal exposure. don jr. was under investigation by robert mueller's office, you know, jared kushner had problems with his security clearance and his paperwork for a security clearance in which you're supposed the be forthcoming and truthful, was not, and had to amend that paperwork several times.

that's the stuff that we know about and we know about the preside president's concerns. the issue here with the president is that he has used his pardon power so whimsicily and so outside the process that it allows questions to easily seep in. the president does not rely on the pardon attorneys to give him advice. he has often gone against the justice department in making his decisions about pardons. so, as we come here into the final weeks of the trump administration, the president's absolute power is one that he's looking to wield. >> andrew weissman, can you take us through what the exposure might be for donald trump jr.? i think he was one who was in the crosshairs of the mueller probe. he was -- reportedly took the fifth, nothing happened to him. what would amount to criminal

exposure from those interactions or what else could he be skrut h niced for? >> he certainly could face scrutiny at the state level, manhattan district attorney's office has a criminal investigation that appears to be about tax and bank fraud and so to the extent that he is swept up in that, he would be a subject or even a target of that investigation and it's important to note that anything that happens with a presidential pardon will not effect a state criminal or civil case. so, he would still have that exposure. he could have potential exposure in connection with things that the special counsel looked at, but i think it's probably highly unlikely that the new attorney general is going to delve into those matters, but to pick up, nicolle, on one thing that mike said about, and you opened on,

which is this idea of needing to have a pardon because of political retribution of the next attorney general, first of all, that's not how attorney generals normally think. people usually base it on the facts and the law, but also, that's not how our criminal justice system works. it's not like an administration can just say, oh, i want you to go to jail and they go to jail. a jury has to actually find that the person committed something criminal beyond a reasonable doubt. and those jurors are made up of normal, every day citizens, not by presidential appointees. so, this to me is clearly just a fig leaf for the president to try to give a reason for the pardons that is different than, my children have criminal liability. so, to me it's not true. >> andrew, it's a cover story. i picked up on that, too, in the president's statement. this is the branding of the preemptive pardons to keep them out of jail. this is not a permission

structure. this is among his base of voters who may buy this, this may be the reason, but no one until donald trump viewed the justice department as an arm for eking out political retribution against their political adversaries. this is, again, a man who doesn't understand what the justice department is supposed to be and how it's supposed to function, so, i'm glad you pulled down that curtain. i want to press you a little bit more about ivanka, but i think it's some of "the times" great reporting on donald trump's taxes and businesses and some of that came out at the same time that your great book came out revealing for the first time that the mueller investigators really didn't get into trump's finances, so, if a state investigation is going to go where no one has gone before and we have "the times" reporting about ivanka being used in some of those tax schemes, what could her exposure be? >> her exposure to the extent that she was really wrapped up with the trump organization,

which, by all accounts, seems to be true, could be in addition to tax fraud and bank fraud. you know, she did a lot of work internationally and one of the things i've always been very curious about and again, it's speculation, is the foreign corrupt practices act. and the reason i say that is, if you remember, donald trump talked about his dislike of that law before he came into office. and it always was curious to me -- this is a pretty, you know, somewhat arcane law for him to know about. and it seemed like since he does so much international work, i would certainly be interested in knowing her involvement in international transactions. >> yamiche, mike mentioned jared kushner's problems in obtaining a security clearance through normal channels. the security concerns were raised from the intelligence community, i believe it's been reported they were -- i guess

the chief of staff john kelly and the white house counsel heard those concerned, shared some of those concerns and the president overruled them, granted jared kushner the highest levels, i believe, of security clearance after much back and forth and coverage from journalists like yourself. what do you think it says that jared kushner is in here for one of the blanket pardons, as well? >> it says two things. if you are looking at this from the president's point of view, it's saying that he's worried that people are going to target jared kushner who has been the face of so many of the things that the trump administration has been doing and who has been the subject of so many questions about his own financial dealings. the second thing is, it tells you, if you are someone who doesn't buy the president's story, the conspiracy theory that the biden administration is going to come after him and everyone who is close to him, if you think of it away from that, this is the president looking around and saying, this might be someone who else has liability, because they have been working close with me, because maybe they've been engaged in sort of

activities that could put them at risk of running afoul of the law. i think what andrew put pretty closely here, what he put pretty well here, there's this idea that this is not the way the criminal justice system works and it's only really in president trump's mind in modern history that you have him thinking of the department of justice as an arm of the white house. you had him searching for an attorney general first not being happy with jeff sessions and finding in william barr someone who would basically go with him where few attorney generals would go, up until the point that he tried to get william barr to try to overturn the results of the election that william barr did stopped. but what you have in president trump is him thinking of jared kushner and saying, this is another person i need to protect, because he might have some of those sam problems, the legal challenges that i'll have when i leave office. >> mike, the other bombshell on this front was an unsealed, partially unsealed court document that revealed for the very first time that there is an investigation into potential

bribery, pay for pardon. what do people like yourself and andrew and yamiche, who can read into documents like this, what do we know about this investigation from what has been revealed? >> we don't know a ton. a lot of the documents that came out were heavily redacted. we know that it involves a lawyer, we know that it involves someone that was in prison, that was trying to get out of prison, get a pardon, get some sort of clemency to come out of it. but the details are pretty sketchy. and we are sort of, you know, spent a lot of time trying to piece this together and understand it. but i think what it does do, though, is amid all this flurry of speculation about whether giuliani will be pardoned, or the children will be pardoned or what trump may do in other areas, it just -- it just -- it creates even more questions about how these pardon process works and what it's meant to have a president who, for four years, has not followed a pardon process. you're supposed to be a process

in place to ensure that the public, when they see a pardon, you know, i guess one of the reasons is to think that the pardon was given for the right reasons and was not given because of favoritism or not given for corrupt reasons, but when you have, you know, a president operating, you know, aside from his lawyers to sort of run his own pardon process, it allows these questions to seep in. >> i mean, let me just follow up with you. the pardon power is so absolute that for it to be corrupted has to be a pretty egregious bucket of conduct. if they're investigating bribery and what we learned is that money was floated to go somewhere, they just didn't know where, i think was the line we read from your story, what are the possibility scenarios? i mean, is it -- it is possible that someone was holding out a pardon for a payout? >> look, the possibilities are

endless. and, but you know, it's like, there's been public integrity questions about why lawmakers have made decisions for much of american history, and, you know, sometime s folks have gotten ino trouble for selling seats or selling decisions and influence and such. but we really don't know. we don't know much beyond that and what it involves. the document does not say anything specifically about what the president may have known or who the white house officials were that may have interacted with, you know, with these individuals seeking the pardon. so, it's -- it was an unusual unusually -- it was tantalizing to look at the document, but there's a lot more reporting that has to be done. >> and drew weissmann, i guess the point is, this is one of those areas, and it reminds me of so many trump stories. mike flynn, why did he lie to the fbi and plead guilty to doing so twice? i mean, pardon power is almost

absolute and it's almost trumpian there's a criminal investigation by the department of justice that he managed to corrupt something that is almost an absolute power. i mean, what -- and if you think of the way that jim comey and andrew mccabe and yourself and many others have described this organization, it is hard to find a word other than mob-like to discuss how they roll. i heard you say last night on brian williams' program that no one thinks this is something they wouldn't do. when you hear this investigation by the justice department, the possible selling of pardons, you think, oh, yeah, if someone thought of it, they would certainly do that. what is your theory of what the still opaque aspects of the investigation are right now? >> so, i -- i think the answer to that is very much a followup to what mike said, which is, i think dead-on, which is, you know, the president put to the side all of the process that exists in the department of justice about how pardons are

given. and on the one hand, that assures that only the most her or the use people are given a pardon and that people are treated fairly. in other words, that pardons aren't dolled out to people who are friends and denied to people who are enemies. and there's a whole process. and, historically, people have gotten in trouble when they have done anything that sort of veers from that process, notably in the mark rich pardon. but by president trump putting that to the side and saying, you know what, i'm going to do whatever i want and i don't care about the pardon attorney or that entire process, he also now has opened himself up to this kind of investigation, because normally you would not sit there, if someone came to you and said, i've got an idea, let's pay a lot of political contributions and try to get a pardon, you know, anybody's going to be like, how is that exactly going to work? there are way too many career people involved in this. the pardon attorney's never going to go for it. this -- it's just not going to

fly. but when all you have to do is deal with donald trump, you know, that then is something you go, oh, that might work. and i'm sort of reminded of, if you remember at the end of the campaign, the president boasting how he could have a lot more money going into his campaign if he just sort of extorted companies by saying, you know, i'll give you a benefit if you give me more money, well, that's what we're reading about in the decision by judge howell as to what's under investigation, which is, a substantial donor is going to give lots of money to a political campaign of some sort of political contributions and was going to seek a favor of a pardon or commutation from the white house. i find it very hard to believe, by the way, that that can happen without having some sense of somebody on the inside being receptive to that, because otherwise you're going to be throwing a lot of money out.

>> we should point out that doj has said that no one -- no government official was or is currently a subject or target of the investigation disclosed in this filing. but that certainly doesn't rule out knowledge thereof. yamiche, i want to -- go ahead, andrew. >> i was just going to say on that, i would take that somewhat with a grain of salt, because the career public integrity prosecutor on this case, do you really think you're going to right now be seeking documents from the white house or seeking to interview people in the white house when you could just wait until january 20th to do that? >> exactly. and yamiche, i would like to bring all this to its obvious end point, which is that there is no sure sign that even donald trump knows that he lost than this entire 17-minute conversation about his pardon power, because if he really thinks that he won, he's

sticking around, he wouldn't be pardoning his whole family and himself and everyone that did all of his dirty work. i mean, what does this pardon discussion and anyone in the white house that you've asked about it, how do they, on the one hand say, oh, yeah, or, i guess they deny most of it, but the very fact that this is what they're doing and there's no reporting that suggests it isn't, makes out abundantly clear that even they know they're out of there. >> i think you hit the nail right on the head. in talking to white house sources, especially one that i talked to last night, that person told me that this is a reality tv president, so, some of this is a show. some of this is president trump wanting to gin up the people who have supported him for the last three years, millions of them who voted for him in 2020 to try to give them this idea that he's fighting tooth and nail to the last minute. most people in the white house tell me the president and people around him understand he has lost. someone told me the president is a realist. behind closed doors, he understands that his days at the

white house are coming to an end. as a result, you're seeing him looking at pardon power. you're seeing him thinking about saying that he's going to run in 2024 on inauguration day, you're seeing him thinking about how he's going to wield power in the republican party after he leaves office. his possible daughter-in-law running for a senate seat. the president's mind is already past 2020. he's going to continue to fight and put up these frivolous lawsuits. but the president knows this is really all for show and not really in some way him actually going -- him being able to rustle back this election. he understands that he's the projected loser and he will likely have to leave office. and by likely, there's a 99.9% chance he will be not in office on january 21st. >> there's a 100% chance. it makes it all the more appalling that he's handing out pardons like party favors at

this point and senate majority leader still won't acknowledge that joe biden is the next president. yamiche alcindor, mike schmidt, thank you for starting us off, andrew is sticking around a little longer. when we come back, as trump considers pardons for just about everyone, there are a few things the pardon can't wipe away. namely, his own legal exposure in those state-led investigat n investigations andrew weissmann talked about. and if trump doesn't fire him first, president-elect joe biden plans to keep fbi director christopher wrai around a little longer. we'll look at that. yet another contrast in leadership. plus, the cdc today again pleading with americans to hold off on all travel, though they are offering new ways to shorten the recommended quarantine time for people who may have been exposed to the coronavirus. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ere. ♪ ♪

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some democrats want investigations to go forward against president trump after he leaves office. do you support that? >> i will not do what this president does and use the justice department as my vehicle to insist that something happen. there are a number of investigations that i have read about that are at a state level, there's nothing at all i can or cannot do about that. >> president-elect joe biden and he's right. there is nothing he can do about the probes by new york prosecutors looking into donald trump's business dealings.

and neither can donald trump. while the lame duck president may be considering pardons for himself, his pals and his family members, those pardons don't provide protections against any charges at the state or local level. and there's a lot of reporting to suggest that significant legal trouble awaits trump once he's out of office and no longer immune from prosecution. joining our conversation, david k. johnson, a tax expert, a pulitzer prize-winning investigator reporter and author of "the making of donald trump." andrew weissmann is still with us. i want to understand what you both think donald trump understands. you first, david, about his exposure in these new york investigations. >> oh, donald knows very well, nicolle, that he is likely to be indicted on business insurance banking and tax fraud by the state of new york. and let's remember, he has been tried twice, civilly, for tax fraud and lost both cases and he was shown in one of those cases

to be a forger. donald knows that these are very dangerous cases for him but there's nothing he can use his pardon power for, because it's only useful for offenses against the united states, that is federal charges. so -- >> david, yeah. >> so, he's very worried. >> this is so interesting to me. a trump ally said to me in the days after the election when trump refused to concede, that he will engage in this gift, taking small dollar donations from his own voters because he's worried about the legal bills that await him on the other side. and i guess my question for you is, what engages the entire republican establishment in what is basically donald trump's legal defense fund campaign? >> well, the small donors, and apparently it's mostly small donors to this fund, didn't read the fine print. he can use the money to

subsidize his lifestyle and pay for lawyers rather than trying to get courts to overturn the election, which is totally and completely failed, as we all knew that it would from the get-go, but what donald has done is hijacked the republican party, and he's used his bullying power and his pop ewe lawyerty with people who don't understand who he really is, that he's the third generation of a four generation white color crime family, he's turned the republican party into moral jelly fish. blind, spineless and adrift in the chaos that trump creates. >> you know, andrew, i just keep thinking about, and i said this in the last block, people that you worked with in law enforcement and the justice department, that have described every brush with donald trump's inner circle as feeling like meeting with a mob family and i want to put the same question to you. i mean, what do you think allows someone who acts like part of an

organized crime family in the way he bullies and intimidates and obstructs investigations that come anywhere close to him and his family, what do you think gets the entire republican establishment to be part of his basically bouncer crew? >> so, you know, when i first heard jim comey describe the president as a mob boss, i chalked that up to hyperbole and sort of threw that off and, you know, the more that i -- that was before the special counsel investigation. and the more i've been exposed to what he's done, both as a criminal prosecutor and then just as a citizen, i actually realize i was wrong. that he engages in much of the same type of behavior. obviously, not the sort of, you know, 0 verdiovert violent.

so, there isn't that analogy. the answer is power and fear. you know, he is really talented as wielding that. i wanted to quickly, nicolle, follow up on something that i thought was really interesting, which is, in addition to the state tax liability, it's worth noting that donald trump has limited ability to protect himself even at the federal level. it's not clear that a self-pardon is going to be constitutional, assuming that the attorney general, the new one, wants to test that. and you cannot pardon yourself for future crime. and one of the things that donald trump and his family are going to have to do on tax day is, they're going to have to file tax returns and if you are worried about, you know, your prior tax crimes, you have a real decision to make. are you going to continue fudging your tax returns, are you going to not file, which itself can be a crime -- >> right. >> or are you going to tell the

truth? and if you tell the truth on those tax returns, you may be handing a conviction to the manhattan district attorney's office, because that's going to have evidentiary value, in terms of how you now describe your assets, since you had those assets before. so, they're going to have a r l real -- they're going to be in a real pickle, to use a legal term. >> i can understand that. david, this is what i wanted to ask you about. michael cohen testified before congress exactly how they operationalized the fraudulent telling of donald trump's worth and his losses. he inflated it when he wanted to buy the buffalo bills and he deflated it when he wanted to pay less for insurance and other expenses for the business. how does he circle the square on what andrew just said? he will not be protected for any crimes he commits after january 20th wh. >> well, he might try to invent a time machine. other than that, he's got real

problems. and i want to encourage people to read andrew's book. he does a terrific job, particularly in the area of pardons, of laying out how donald trump laid out the possibility of a pardon. i've flipped lots of people for the newspapers in getting them to confess to wrongdoing and felonies including murder and it is a delicate dance. and i can't imagine, if you have in the background the prospect that if you play ball, you won't -- you'll get a pardon. and let's remember one other thing. donald once wrote a letter on behalf of a major international cocaine trafficker and i believe donald was in business with this guy, urging the judge to go light on him but read carefully the letter really said, don't rat me out, protect me and i'll take care of you and the public record shows, as i report in my biography, boy did donald take care of this guy. >> you know, i want to give you a second, andrew, to explain

just how the dangling of pardons in front of paul manafort and mike flynn, which were, i think that was done by the summer of 2017, there was reporting that john dowd had had discussions or discussed pardons with at least some of their attorneys and there was a lot of musical chairs in turnover, but i remember that being at least in the water in terms of the news coverage of the earliest phases of the mueller probe. how did that impede your ability to get to the truth? >> so, here's a classic example. paul manafort. paul manafort gets convicted in the first trial in virginia. he's facing decades in jail. he's facing a second trial in d.c., really strong poof and you would think in that situation you would truly cooperate. that's what you normally would do to try and lessen the amount

of time you do in jail. and instead, he reported to cooperate, but as the court found, he actually told a whole series of lies to us. and you have to ask yourself, what's the reason for that? the reason for a is that you are hoping that you will get your payday in a different way, that you are going to be pardoned. rick gates had the same dilemma of, do you come in and cooperate and try and reduce your criminal exposure or do you say, you know what, i don't really have to worry about that because i can get a pardon? and roger stone is probably the classic case of that, where we know it worked, which is, roger stone goes to trial, is convicted by a jury beyond a reasonable doubt of all crimes and doesn't do a day in jail because basically he says, i will keep my lips sealed if i get a pardon. and his sentence was commuted and he didn't go to jail. so, all of those are ways of

keeping the truth from the government, because you never get the benefit of truthful information from those witnesses. >> it's unbelievable. david, andrew, you have both enlightened me and i'm sure our viewers. thank you so much for spending some time with us today. up next, reverting back to a norm when it comes to the fbi. today, we learned that joe biden will keep donald trump's favorite target for abuse, fbi director chris wray. that story is next. tonight...i'll be eating a falafel wrap

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there are some reports about christopher wray's job maybe being on the line. would you commit to keeping christopher wray at the fbi? does he have your confidence, the way he's handled the election interference? >> i'm not going to put anybody else in the cross hairs of the president. >> so, he has your support? >> i didn't say that. i said i'm not going to put him in the cross hairs of the president. >> that's joe biden on the campaign trail just a few months ago, saying he would not put fbi christopher wray in the crosshairs of a vindictive donald trump. "the new york times" is report, today that president-elect biden will keep christopher wray in his current role. that is if wray makes it to inauguration day without donald trump firing him. trump's relationship with wray has been tenuous over the last year. reportedly telling advisers he wanted to fire him in the days and weeks before the election. joining our conversation,

charlie sikes, editor at large of the bullwork and jason johnson, journalism and politics professor. both lucky for us msnbc contributors. jason, i've been missing you, my friend. this christopher wray story of donald trump turning on him almost immediately because, just to pick up the theme we've used all hour long, he did not turn the fbi into basically his interior ministry, his personal police force. was something that anyone one of us could have predicted, but it's almost shakespearean that as joe biden saying, i am as committed to restoring the norms as you could imagine, so committed that i'm going to leave this person there, because the norm that i'm going to restore is, i'm going to stay out of law enforcement and justice. what do you think of that? >> it's great, nicole, and joe biden said exactly the thing he should say to keep those norms

which is, like, i'm not going to be involved in this, because i don't want to put him in trump's crosshairs. it's like you're trying to buy a new house, you don't want to say to everybody, i'm looking at that house, because somebody will try to buy it before you. joe biden knows that if he came out and gave a full throated endorsement and said, i can't wait to work with this guy, donald trump will fire him the day before the inauguration, just to be petty and spiteful. i like the fact that one, joe biden is returning to norms, but two, he recognizes that we're still in this tenuous place. that there's a lot of damaging things that donald trump can do in the next couple of weeks. >> jason, can you weigh in on this idea that we should turn the page completely and focus all of our energy and attention on the new administration? i feel that, that is what my heart says, but my head is, we better watch damn close while donald trump still has his hands on the wheel and remains in the cockpit for the next 49 days. >> yeah, nicolle, you're exactly

right. we have to. and there's a difference between decentering donald trump and the drama. i don't care where jared and ivanka go. i don't care how they're going to move their kids, that doesn't matter what does matter is, the guy who still controls the wheels of power, as you said, he can make a difference. he can fire people. he can still make information difficult. you got to make sure that members of his administration aren't selling state secrets, that they're not behind the scenes trying to negotiate their own way out. so, we have to watch every single thing that donald trump does until the day his key card doesn't work at the white house because he has the ability that even if he technically hands over this government to joe biden on january 20th, there are so many damaging things he can do before then between the pandemic, between the economy and national security, we've got to keep our eye on him and chris wray is just one of those examples. >> charlie, you and i have had these conversations about the damage he can do in this transition, to what americans do if they go about their lives and think that masks donald really

help, if they go about their holidays and say, i'm having a gathering, i really miss my loved ones, but we haven't talked quite as much about everything that's in the news this week. the news last night, the revelation that there's a doj investigation into a possible bribery scheme around pardons, now, as andrew weissmann said, we should have predicted that it would end that way, but what do you make of sort of this final last gasping sordid chapter of trump's presidency? >> well, i want to agree with jason. this is actually the most dangerous 60 days of the trump presidency, because we can probably spare ourselves some heartburn if we recognize, look, there are no norms that he is not willing to violate. there's no standard of decency that he's not willing to shred and unfortunately, he has put a target on christopher wray's back right now. look, we have not even seen how low he's going to go on the pardon palooza. we don't know what the extent of the corruption is going to be.

what we do know is that the president of the united states right now in real time is trying to overturn a legitimate democratic election. if somebody would have jug zested a few years ago, nicolle, that we would be seeing a president of the united states that is actively trying to disenfranchise millions of voters to overturn and election and have himself declared the winner, people would have thought, oh, that's trump derangement syndrome. but that's literally what's going on right now. and again, every single day we're seeing that this is a man -- we knew this. he is who he is. who he has always been. but a man untrampled by any sense of ethics or respect for history. a little while ago, we were debating, is he going to show up at the inauguration. well, now, it looks like not only is he going to show up at the inauguration, he may stage his own counter inauguration and he may make that a litmus test for the republican party whether

they're going to show up. so, no, i think we ought to keep our eyes very much focused on this president because just when we think he's done all the damage he can do, there's another two months to go. >> you know, charlie, i want to press you on this idea of just how sad and pathetic that is. you can just see him, you know, screaming at the poor, you know, sorry advance guy, because he'll no longer have advance to backout, which is white house communications folks who set things up and presidential caliber. so, you could see him screaming at whoever the next brad parscale turned out to be, whoever is still left from his five-week jihad against american democracy, and -- but the idea that that, that pathetic display, could have any sway over elected republicans, is such a sad indictment of elected republicans. >> you know, it is, but let me also point out what a sad indictment it is of american democracy right now that you have the vast majority of

republican voters who are willing to believe many of the things that the president is saying, who doubt the legitimacy of this election. and i know there are people out there who are saying, well, the institutions have been resilient. we've gotten through it. he's taken his shot. but i kind of wonder whether or not our constitutional republicans, like this giant battleship that's been hit by a torpedo under the water line and whether we don't know how much water we're taking in right now, because if we have a country where 47% of americans don't believe that our democracy works or don't believe that the elected president of the united states is legitimate, then we really have turned the page in the democratic history of this country. that is real damage, long-term damage and what we've seen is that donald trump is prepared to inflict that damage and continue to. i have to make one more point. >> please. >> you covered this yesterday. this very emotional plea from

the elections official in georgia, mr. president, watch the language you're using, people are going to die, people are going to be shot. this is crucial. how does the president respond to that? by doubling down on his rhetoric, by pushing it even further. by pitting the deranged versus the demented versus the conspiracy theorists. and so, you know, donald trump is not done damaging this country. by a long shot. and he won't be for a long time. because if he announces he's running in 2024, the republican party, which has been held has taj for the last few years will be held hostage and they will be married to donald trump's lies. >> jason the only thing i disagree with is they're held hosta hostage. they willingly went on the pirate ship with donald trump. i want to keep you on this point that charlie has raised, you and

i have for years now looked at these specific and brutal examples of donald trump refusing to condemn violence and in some instances, using the most violent language in the arena himself, chanting "send her back" about congresswomen, talking about the squad, using violent language to describe what to do to peaceful protesters, using war terms to talk about what the media is, enemy of the people. and it has -- as charlie just said, it has often been put in the bucket of trump derangement syndrome or hyper sensitivity to his language, but we are right now at a place where his language, most threatens the grassroots of the republican party who thought they were riding his coat tails into more prominence in the national party. he is targeting the kinds of statewide officials who a few years down the road would show up in iowa and kick the tires on a national run. he's targeting statewide

officials in georgia who get the same voter, the same voter who voted for governor kemp and secretary of state rafens berger voted for donald trump. he is smashing up the future of the republican party. personally, i think that's what they deserve. they built frankenstein. but what do you think pumps the brakes? do you think someone has to, as this official, gabriel sterling warned yesterday, he said, quote, someone's going to get shot. do you think it has to come to that to wake up anybody else that might have any influence in the party or do you think it's too far gone? >> i think it's too far gone, nicolle. gab gabby giffords was shot. steve scalise was shot. and he didn't change his mind about much of gun com. these people have been in an abusive relationship, an abusive personal and political relationship with donald trump for four years. that's what they've signed up for. dr. phil says, you go from being a victim to a volunteer.

they're volunteering for this abuse at this point. the same people who are crying now about these threats and about the violence, they didn't have anything to say when he was saying, "lock her up." they didn't have anything to say when donald trump told police, knock somebody's head before you bring them inside. they didn't have anything to say when donald trump said, beat up that protester, i'll pay your legal bills. they said it was funny, you people are all concerned. i don't want to see anyone hurt, i don't want to see anybody hurt or suffering, i don't have a lot of empathy for people who are perfectly willing to tolerate this abuse as long as it was at somebody they didn't like. and i think unfortunately, what we're going to see the violent. because honestly, nicolle, the closer we get to inauguration that's where the real derangement is going to come out, when it finally exhausts itself, everybody recognizing that none of these crazy schemes by my cousinrudy giuliani, they're not going to work, people are going to take this into their own hands and

get violent and right at the doorstep of donald trump and the millions of people who enabled him. >> jason johnson, charlie sykes. the most important conversations i've been apart of since the election. thank you so much for that. up next, a of since the election. thank you so much for that. up next, a policy adjustment. how a shorter quarantine might get more people to actually quarantine as covid cases surge across the united states. that story's next. s surge across the united states that story's next. these are real people, not actors, who've got their eczema under control.

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in this country, so far, more than 13.8 million americans have been sickened with coronavirus and tragically more than 272,000 souls have been lost to it. today, the cdc issued familiar warnings against holiday travel, saying that if you do have to go somewhere, you better get a covid test three days before your trip and after. also today, the cdc announced new guidelines for those exposed to the virus, shortening the recommended quarantine from 14 days to 10 days if no symptoms develop, and to 7 days for an asymptomatic person who also tests negative in the final 48 hours of quarantine. let's bring into our conversation global health policy expert and msnbc medical contributor dr. gupta. dr. vin gupta, i think that what is on people's mind now is when and how are we going to have vaccines in this country? i read today that the pfizer vaccine, which i think was the first one to get through their

trials, is going to be -- was approved in the uk and will be available there before here. why is that, and does that mean that the -- there will be less available here? what does that mean? >> good afternoon, nicole. you know, it's actually -- it may seem like, why are we delaying the process here? the reason here is our regulators, the fda, is actually wanting an additional set of nonpharmaceutical company's eyes on their data, so they're not just taking pfizer's data and taking their word for it. they're looking at the -- they've assembled an independent group of advisors that are advising the fda, providing their own expert insight, and then the fda on december 10th will make -- will levy a decision about whether to issues an emergency use authorization. in the e.u. and the uk, they tend to be a little bit more accepting of what the companies themselves are publishing, and they're not needing that additional set of eyes. that's the reason why it might

seem like it's a delay but it's just due diligence and i think it's the right thing to do. >> and i guess if you look at how polarized all of this debate in this country has been, it should be reassuring that we're redoubling our efforts. i wonder what you think of that. when something is available, is there an expectation that most people will go to their doctors and say, give it to me? or are health professionals prepared for having to do a big public education, public persuasion campaign ahead of mass vaccinations? >> i think assuredly it's going to be the latter because of what you just mentioned, nicole. there's going to have to be a reassurance campaign at a broad level, whole of society for the american people to really trust in any type of vaccine, regardless of what company made it, and i think the big issue here is, most people might say, give me the first dose, but what happens between the first dose and the second dose, 28 days apart? well, people have a mild side effect and say, you know what? that's not for me. it's reassuring that the

american people, encouraging them to get that second dose, making sure that they know that you're not suddenly allowed to go back to normal life, even after that two-dose regimen that is going to take time to build immunity. there's all types of public health campaigning and communication that has to be done effectively and clearly for people really to buy into this and for us to derive the benefits from mass vaccination. >> and all of that has to take place, if we've learned anything, it's sequential. we have to do that first. we will stay on this part of story. dr. vin gupta, thank you for spending time with us. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. use" starts a break. don't go anywhere. ♪ [ engines revving ] ♪ it's amazing to see them in the wild like th--

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♪ donald trump is a man who ran for office to make his brand great, not to make our country great. he had no desire or intention to lead this nation, only to market

himself and to build his wealth and power. mr. trump would often say, this campaign was going to be the greatest infomercial in political history. ♪ >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. for a president who always made the office about himself and his allies, it was inevitable that we would get this point right now, the point where donald trump's children are now being considered as recipients for preemptive presidential pardons and news that the actual pardon process itself may be under investigation. the president scrambling in his final days as the dominos around his fraudulent campaign against the integrity of the election continue to fall victim to reality. following the declaration by his own attorney general that he has seen no evidence of any fraud that would alter the election result. conservative sebastian the "wall street journal" pleading with the president to give up his quest to overthrow the election

result and instead focus on preserving his legacy. but new reporting reveals that what is apparently on donald trump's mind is not that. he is wholly focused on protecting himself and his business from legal exposure. "the new york times" detailing how trump discussed possible pardons for his three eldest children and his attorney, rudy giuliani. although the question remains what those pardons would shield any of them from since none of those four have yet to be charged with anything. the white house has not commented on the story, and giuliani called it a lie, but one source familiar told nbc news the president is considering these pardons because he feels embattled, not because he believes he or his family members have done anything illegal. and in just the last hour, trump released a 46-minute long video of sorts repeating his false claims of fraud, and he even addressed that he could be in legal jeopardy after leaving office, saying, quote, now i hear that these same people that failed to get me in washington have sent every piece of

information to new york so that they can try to get me there. we must note that the news media was not admitted into those remarks. that as unsealed documents from the department of justice reveal an investigation into a potential bribery for pardons scheme involving presidential pardons, although the redacted documents do not name the individuals involved. with 49 days left to go, a desperate president, who is decidedly not looking out for the people he is supposed to serve, but how he can personally benefit from the levers of power he still pulls. it's yet another stark contrast to the man who defeated him four weeks ago. president-elect joe biden spent part of his day today speaking with small business owners and workers to understand what they need most from his economic policies. >> i know times are both tough, but i believe that with the right policies, we can fundamentally change things. when i think about the economy, i don't think about the gross domestic product or the state of the stock market.

i think about families like yours, families like mine, families like i grew up in. >> and speaking of tough times, in dollars and cents, donald trump's focus in that area is on his latest grift, a fund-raising campaign to raise small dollar donations from his own voters and supporters ostensibly for a campaign to reverse the election. on that, tim o'brian at bloomberg writes this. trump has had multireasons for trying to taint the election. he can't come to terms with the idea of being a loser. he faces legal and financial challenges that would have been made less harrowing if he could remain in the oval office and continue enjoying the protections of the presidency, and now we can add another factor to the mix. trump has discovered that running around claiming the sky is falling is a money-making proposition. a president willing to do whatever it takes to help himself and skirt the consequences on his way out the door is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. the aforementioned tim o'brian,

senior columnist for bloomberg opinion, also ben rhodes, msnbc political contributor, and olivia troy is here, former top aide to vice president mike pence on the coronavirus task force. let me start with you, tim o'brian. you understand donald trump's maniacal focus on his own legal vulnerabilities and financial distress, if you will. david k. johnson said in the last hour that donald trump understands at every level, mental and psychological, and financial, just how vulnerable he is. it seems to be a piece of evidence of that in realtime that donald trump himself talked about these new york state investigations. why do they have donald trump so spooked? >> because there's a lot of traction there, nicole. you know, we've talked about probably this for five years now but there's two lens through which you can understand almost everything that donald trump does. it's either self-aggrandizement or self-preservation, and we are

clearly in the self-preservation category with all of this. the new york -- or the manhattan district attorney has a criminal investigation running that is both financially and legally perilous for the president. if he ends up charged and convicted for a crime, i think there's a high hurdle around that, but if it happens, he's not going to run again in 2024. and he's going to have to deal with the same legal consequences of his actions that all other mere mortals have to after they leave the presidency. i think, you know, in the last -- in the weeks ahead, what you're going to see is a person whose mind is on fire with the reality that he no longer enjoys all of these insulations and protections that the office has given him, that the constitution has given him, and that his own party has broken itself apart to make sure he can continue to enjoy. and i think he's going to

exercise every power he has in the next few weeks to avoid the consequences of all that. i think the fortunate thing is on january 20th. the unfortunate thing is that is still enough time for him to continue to taint the public's faith in the integrity of the election, to rip apart people from his own party and other democrats as people of malfeasance and ill will, and i think essentially to make joe biden's work much harder. >> i agree with all of those potentials for harm. another one, though, ben rhodes, is to our national security, and i know john bolton doesn't have a large fan base among any viewers here, but i've always used his indictment on donald trump as an example of how bad is it? it's so bad john bolton bolted and turned on him and wrote a book about it. john bolton had talked about his suspicion that the u.s. foreign

policy, as it pertained to turkey and china, have been corrupted by donald trump's business interests or personal interests and i think there's some new reporting in politico that trump plans to restart foreign deals, breaking a post-presidency norm. i want to read some of it and get your thoughts on this. trump's name sake company plans to resume foreign real estate projects like luxury hotels as it grapples with the tarnished brand in the united states and the need to pay off hundreds of millions of dollars in debt according to three people familiar with the plans, not to mention past public statements from trump's children. company officials have already vowed to look into more developments in india and will be expected to give a second look to projects they had considered in the aforementioned china and turkey as well as colombia and brazil before trump entered office. this is another, i guess, failure of imagination. there aren't laws really governing what presidents can do what they leave office but maybe after trump, there should be. >> i think so, nicole.

i've always thought that when it came to some of these relationships like saudi arabia, like turkey, that the corruption wasn't necessarily going to be something that was fully apparent during the trump administration. the payoff was very likely going to come on the back end of the administration, and look, there's already been uncomfortable questions raised in the past where you have had the saudis and the kuwaitis and other gulf states financing presidential libraries and financing speaking fees but we're talking about a whole other order of magnitude of corruption, trump and jared kushner have imagined for themselves throughout these years was office was befriending autocrats who have access to massive amounts of wealth so they could profit from that on the back end and the fact that jared kushner is currently in the gulf and, you know, apparently trying to address the tensions between saudi arabia and qatar, sure, but i wonder about what side conversations are taking place with mohammed

bin salman about what the future business relationship is between these families. >> i mean, ben rhodes, do you think, with all the pardon news over the last 24 hours, with these serious questions about what donald trump will do with our country's secrets, i mean, i know he didn't read the pdb but he must have picked up a few things here and there about our most sacred and classified information about our country and about certain assets and intelligence agreements. i mean, do you think someone needs to sort of keep an eye on the trump account, what trump and jared and others trade for favorable business deals or for clout or whatever it is they value at this point? >> absolutely, nicole. the danger is that there's not much that can be done. we've already had reports during the trump presidency, for instance, you'll recall the kind of bizarre event where mohammed bin salman imprisoned a number of his family members in the ritz carlton. there were rumors and reports about whether or not jared kushner had helped identify who political opponents might be. the reality is that donald

trump, jared kushner, the people around them, they have access to all the information that the united states government collects through our intelligence services. they and these weeks leading up to the inauguration of joe biden have installed loyalists at the head of the defense department and the head of sprawling apparatus of intelligence collection of the united states government. they're going to walk out the door with that in their mind. >> right. >> i do think it's going to be necessary to take a hard look at what the paper trail is left in the government to indicate what they might have been interested in, what they might have been up to in terms of corruption. there is going to be a real need for congressional oversight with an executive branch that will finally produce documents and witnesses. i think this is necessary for a national security. it has nothing to do with political retribution. it has to do with trying to understand how much our national security might have been corrupted or compromised. >> i want to bring it back to pardons with you, olivia, and show you just how long donald trump has been thinking about and talking publicly about pardoning himself.

this is him with peter alexander, i think, a couple years ago. >> on the pardon power, do you believe that you are above the law? >> no. >> that you can pardon yourself. >> i'm not above the law. i never want anybody to be above the law, but the pardons are a very positive thing for a president. i think you see the way i'm using them. and yes, i do have an absolute right to pardon myself. but i'll never have to do it because i didn't do anything wrong. >> i don't need to do it because i didn't do anything but if i needed to, i could. that was donald trump, many pounds and a few different hair colors ago, talking about pardoning himself. olivia? >> right and that's classic donald trump, sowing the seeds for paving the way forward on his plan, and he does this repeatedly. he did this, you know, from day one. he perpetuates lies and sort of -- you know, he tells you what he is going to do. that's what's so crazy about this entire administration, his entire presidency.

it's not like he's lied. he's very forthcoming with us about what he plans to do. that is why this is so incredible, right? i mean, no need to put him on a lie detector because he's telling you straight out, step by step, my next move is this, and you may have to wait for it for a while, but it always comes true. he did this with the election. he did this with all of these numerous steps. it's wild to think about but it's -- i mean, you know, hey, he's telling us the truth. >> you know, this is always been, tim o'brien, how people like yourself have advised us to look at him. when he tells you he's going to do something, he's going to do it. believe him. and when you look at all this pardon reporting, they're really not denying they're going to do it. sean hannity was out in front monday night saying, he should pardon the whole family because biden's obsessed with him. he's anything but obsessed with him. donald trump seems desperate to fight with him and he won't engage him and he's left chris wray in place, which has to be driving donald trump berserk

today. this is someone that just won't take the bait and play on the turf that he wants to play on. what do you think donald trump rails against as an ex-president? >> well, he'll always rail against the demons that he wants to pretend exist, which are people that in various shades have stolen things from him. you know, the old, the late gossip columnist liz smith, she was from texas, and she said, the only thing you need to understand about donald trump is that he is a 7-year-old grown old. and there is an amazingly large amount of truth about that. he is an unhinged, dangerous juvenile delinquent who screams all the time about what he gets, throws tantrums when he doesn't get what he wants, and is willing to break the windows and break the china whenever he throws that tantrum. the outrageously unfortunate thing about all this is that he's doing it in the oval office. none of it -- i think olivia completely put her finger on it

when she said we shouldn't be surprised by any of this because he has been transparent about it all along. the only surprise is the extent to which he corrupts and degrades the people around him. >> right. >> and why they go along with it. that's always been the surprising piece of it. >> so, ben rhodes, on that point, he's a 7-year-old with the nuclear codes, and with all access to everything you just articulated. what is your biggest fear about these last 49 days? >> well, i think that, you know, while i appreciate the intent of people who are saying things like, you know, now's the time to step aside and do the right thing to protect your legacy, this is his legacy. his legacy is the corruption and debasement of the office of the presidency, of the republican party, of the institutions of american government. and i guess my biggest fear is really not that he's going to start some nuclear war, although you always have to be concerned about that when there's someone that you just gave an apt description to, in charge of the nuclear codes. it's how much more is he going

to corrupt and debase the institutions of our government? how much more cynicism is he going to breed among his supporters? how many more conspiracy theories is he going to plant to try to delegitimize joe biden before he gets into office? and the reality is, people can stop this. the republican party, the elected officials in the republican party could draw a line around this as we saw yesterday with the secretary of state in georgia taking a stand. unfortunately, they have not done so. and so my concern is that he continues to essentially debase the office, debase the discourse, poison the discourse, seed it with all manner of conspiracy theories that are meant to dog joe biden and radicalize republicans in whatever direction donald trump wants to go in and until enough people say that they've had enough with that, he's still going to be a big presence in our politics and in our lives. >> olivia troy, you've been in the room with these people and i wonder if you played gabriel sterling, who i think is the local elected official who ben might be referencing who said, quote, someone's going to get

shot. someone's going to get hurt. he pleaded with donald trump and his republican enablers to stop with the reckless rhetoric, to stop with the attacks on local election officials, to stop with the fraudulent claim that something was amiss, that the election was anything other than, quote, the most secure in american history. according to the national and homeland security officials responsible for securing it. and according to attorney general bill barr, who said there's no evidence of any fraud that would have changed the outcome. if you played that video loud, loudly enough so everyone had to hear it, what would mike pence think? >> you know, that's a very fascinating question, because i don't know how anyone in the white house right now can't watch that video and think to themselves, what am i doing in contributing to this environment that we have perpetuated throughout the country and that's the most tragic part

about all of this and to ben rhodes' point, the tragic part for me of donald trump laying the groundwork for pardoning and things like that is the fact that his followers are buying into this, and everything that he says, they buy into, and that's just going to create a harder dynamic and a bitter divisiveness across our country in the years to come. and that's what worries me and gives me pause about all of this and gabriel sterling is right. it should stop. and it needs to because greater harm is going to happen. people are going to get killed. and also, you know, when he does things like pardon himself and undermine democracy, his supporters and his followers are allowing this to happen to our country. >> they're cheering it, it would appear. olivia troy, thank you so much for those haunting words and thank you for starting us off this hour. all of you, you've made me think. you've made me shudder. when we come back, lincoln project cofounder rick wilson joins us to talk about the

lasting damage that trump and his enablers have done to our country. plus, president-elect joe biden shining the spotlight on the struggles of small business owners days after announcing his economic team and the civil rights groups keep the pressure on the president-elect to keep diversity in mind as he fills out the rest of his cabinet. and the uk becomes the first western nation to approve a coronavirus vaccine, ratcheting up the pressure on the fda to do the same here at home. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment.

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it has to stop.

mr. president, you have not condemned these actions or this language. senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. this has to stop. we need you to step up and if you're going to take a position of leadership, show some. this is elections. this is the backbone of democracy, and all of you who have not said a damn word are complicit in this. someone's going to get hurt. someone's going to get shot. someone's going to get killed. it's not right. >> wow. that was gabe sterling, an aide to georgia's secretary of state and a republican. we showed you his comments yesterday, but we played it again because it still stands as the strongest and most direct rebuke of the president and his enablers as they try to overturn the election with lies and incite violence against those who stand in their way by adhering to the votes of the people in their states. with voices like sterling's all

too rare in today's gop, one of our next guests is calling for a moment of reckoning for trump's many enablers. in an op-ed in the "daily beast," rick wilson writes this. the trump administration's ma malfeasance, corruption, require a public, media, judicial and political response. if no one is held to account for unequivocally illegal actions and for enabling the people who committed them, you know what we get, right? more of the same. joining our conversation, the author of that piece, rick wilson, republican strategist, lincoln project cofounder and author of the book "running against the devil: a plot to save america from trump and democrats from themselves." also robert gibbs, an msnbc political analyst. hello to both of you. rick wilson, start us off. you put words to my rage about the fact that no republicans in the senate or in congress will

stand up for the republicans in the state who find themselves facing death threats from perhaps their own community members because of what trump is saying to them, all of it lies. >> nicole, it's great to be back with you, and good to see you again. this is a broad problem inside the republican party now. we had ron johnson, that profile in cowardice today from wisconsin, come out and say in an interview that he knows the president lost the election but he can't say anything because it's political suicide. there are too many elected republicans who have whispered to you and whispered to me and whispered to us and many other people like us over and over again they can't stand trump, they think he's dangerous, they think he's awful, they're glad he's leaving and yet even now they will not stand up and declare the true fact that this election was a legitimate election, it was valid, they're playing along with this game, they're encouraging violence. you have people like that lunatic, lynn wood, and sidney powell down on the stage in

georgia today where they're calling for a civil war. they're calling for unrest and railro for riots if donald trump doesn't get his way in this election. it is really a sweeping abdication of responsibility after four years of avoiding it, you know, now is a moment where these folks are on the -- these folks are on the stage of history now, and if they let this thing drag out to the point that donald trump will clearly let it drag out to, which is potentially even violence, they're going to have a responsibility for this that history will judge them in an extraordinarily harsh way, in my opinion. >> what do you think, rick wilson, is the right response? you talked about a media response, a political response, and a judicial response. what does that look like? >> well, we have to not just let the republican party shrug their shoulders and walk away and say, well, that was a crazy weekend in tijuana. this is not how this has to go if we're going to keep this country on a path where there are consequences for political decisions and actions, as there

should be. you know, the conservative position is that people are responsible for their actions and responsible for inaction. and right now, what we have seen is a group of people who have gotten away with pretending that trump is perfectly normal and legitimate in public and in private, pulling their hair out and saying, i can't believe i'm a part of this. well, you know, there's a deep distrust building in this country about elected leaders and elected officials, and just playing along with trump in this sick game is something that is enormously corrosive so if we don't go back and look at what people in the white house did on things like kids in cages, if we don't go back and look at -- as ben was pointing out -- ben rhodes was pointing out earlier, what kind of intelligence jared was requesting for reasons that had nothing to do with our national security but for reasons that may have had to do with his financial security. if we don't go back and look at the way this administration governed and examine it and tear the band-aid off and tear the

lid off this thing and look at it and understand what kind of malfeasance went on here. we've got 270,000 dead americans in part because this administration made a series of political judgments that they were going to punish blue states. there is a lot to do here, and i know there's an instinct in washington to just say, oh, it's all part of the game, that was them, they had to play along. even among some senior democrats who think there shouldn't be, you know, basically a truth and reconciliation process here. i believe there should be because if we don't, as i said in the article, we will get more of the same. >> you know, robert gibbs, this is a difficult conversation, i think, for the democratic party who has no culpability here but they have opportunity here. and i spoke to -- we lost your picture but we're going to keep talking to you and listen to your words, robert gibbs. i spoke to former senior justice department official who said that at the highest levels of the biden transition, they're

grappling with this, especially around some of the choices about who to lead the justice department. can you take me inside those conversations about whether hewing too closely to norms and what rick wilson described as this reconciliation process, what opportunities might be missed to show that nobody is above the law. >> yeah, look, i think this is going to be a tough one to grapple with because i think the biden administration is going to want to proactively get on with the act of governing and the act of putting together a competent covid response and putting together the types of economic actions that we need to have. look, it's an interesting piece. i think it's really hard to put the genie back into the bottle. i don't know that you're going to be able to adequately go back and thoroughly investigate and bring about the types of things that you might want to in something around truth and reconciliation. i think the biggest thing and the most impactful thing is for

joe biden to govern as if the norms hadn't changed from when he was last there. right? the question i used to get all the time at the beginning of the trump administration was, is it ever going to go back to the way it was? and i think that, to me, is the biggest question. is joe biden and kamala harris going to go back to the way it was and can they bring republicans back to the way it was? i don't think it will ever go entirely back, but i'm not entirely sure that you're going to end up having a truth and reconciliation process that actually is going to fix or change much of it. >> i mean, i am familiar with this theory of a snapback and it happens when an administration like yours replaces an administration like mine and makes giant policy reversals on really big foreign policies and domestic policies. that is a snapback. i'm not sure how you snap back when the most powerful person in the country statutorily has poisoned the thoughts of 70 million americans to think that joe biden stole the election.

i mean, how do you snap back 70 million people who believe a lie? >> well, i don't -- look, to be clear, i don't have a singular solution for it, but i doubt, quite frankly, a committee that looks into this stuff is going to be the snapback itself. i think that snapback -- we've taken the elastic of government and we've stretched it to its outer limits. it's going to take a long, long time. this isn't going to be something that gets done in the first hundred days. it isn't likely to get done in the first term of a biden administration. this is going to take some time to put back together, and i think we can -- we can continue to ask for, you know, are republicans in december of 2020 finally going to do what they weren't doing starting in january of 2017, and think or hope we're going to get a different answer. my sense is we're not, right? we're going to keep asking for it. it's not going to happen. the question for me is, how do

they act on january 20th and january 21st? when donald trump is -- maybe he's not fully off the stage, but he's certainly not the main -- he's not the main act on broadway, how are republicans going to act? i think, to me, that's the bigger ultimate question in this and the steps that have to come from that. i'm just -- i'm leary that a commission -- i'm leery that a series of investigations, for instance, how would you get an investigation that wasn't bipartisan to create that snapback? if the investigation was viewed by those that believe things are a lie are just led by one party, they're not going to believe the outcome of that and who among republicans going to stand up and be part of that bipartisan commission? >> well, it's an excellent point, robert gibbs, because you've had judges in all of these battleground states, in pennsylvania, michigan, georgia, wisconsin, arizona, appointed even some by donald trump, but appointed by democratic and republican presidents making

these rulings on the lunacy that rudy and whoever else is still part of his traveling circus, and you're right, that hasn't had the desired impact, so if you don't have republicans involved, well, i'll tell you this. i think part of the answer, and i know we have to go, but i think the three of us should stay on this. part of the answer is a political solution, which is what i think rick is alluding to and making lawmakers of any party pay a political price for denying the truth, for accepting this decay in facts and decay in our institutions. so, that is a conversation to be continued. rick wilson, thank you for spending some time with us. thank you for your piece. robert gibbs is sticking around for more when we come back. the biden transition plows ahead, moving forward, despite getting a very cold shoulder from donald trump. doesn't seem to care. we'll go live to wilmington next. o tcare we'll go live to wilmington next

president-elect joe biden and his transition team in wilmington, delaware, are moving ahead, full steam ahead, with the transition. with just 49 days to go before inauguration day, donald trump is still refusing to concede and is not expected to invite joe biden to the white house, nor to attend his inauguration next month. the president-elect continues to assemble a cabinet. he's now facing pressure from some civil rights groups who are urging him to appoint more black officials to top roles in his incoming administration. joining our conversation, nbc news white house correspondent geoff bennett is here covering

the transition for us from wilmington, delaware. robert gibbs is still here. geoff, what's -- this feels like pressure, not discontent. take me inside the dynamics around these appointments. >> yeah. pressure in trying to hold joe biden to account, so the heads of these legacy civil rights organizations with whom we spoke, namely the heads of the naacp and the national urban league, say they are concerned and frustrated because they haven't been consulted by the biden transition team, and they've not yet met with joe biden himself since the election. so, mark, who leads the national urban league, his point was he doesn't want to have veto power but he feels like he deserves to be consulted, that his organization deserves to be consulted and derrick johnson, the head of the naacp makes the point that the naacp deserves to have joe biden's ear in much the same way that labor organizations and environmental groups and other constituency groups have, perhaps even more so given the fact that black

voters were decisive in joe biden's win. you know, driving turnout in places like pennsylvania and wisconsin and michigan. and to be clear, joe biden knows that, and the reason why we know that joe biden knows that is because he's said as much that night of his victory celebration where he said to the black community, specifically, he said, you've always had my back, and i will always have yours. the biden transition says that the group themselves is half people of color. they also say that of all the cabinet nominees that joe biden has put forward so far, half of them are people of color. and there is a disconnect here between sort of the legacy civil rights groups and some of the groups that are newer to the scene. so, i spoke with the head of color of change, a group that has been around since, really, 2015, and they said, no, we've not spoken to joe biden directly but they have had conversations with top biden officials about policy and how to implement racial justice policy in major agencies like the treasury. so, we're watching that. we're also watching the degrees to which members of the congressional black caucus exert

their influence to make sure that one of the remaining big four cabinet jobs is represented by a person of color. so, joe biden has already named his picks for secretary of state, secretary of treasury, janet yellen herself, of course, is a trail blazer in her own way. but watch for pressure around his picks for a.g. and around justice department as well. >> you know, robert gibbs, i always come at this kind of reporting from geoff like a press person. you know, i want to get in and say, there's so many ways that this is a beautiful thing. this feels like a fight within the family, not the kind of political divides that we're used to covering from the trump era, and it also should be noted that this is such a exponentially improved dynamic from the presidency we've lived through the last four years where donald trump -- i mean, you can't even -- we don't have enough time to go through all of his racist tropes and lack of diversity, but i wonder what you think about, just from a press

perspective, how to keep the unity around this process. the transition is tense time period for anyone with ambitions of serving their country and serving in a new administration. it has a heightened importance around all of these picks, but what would you advise the team to do? >> well, look, i think the biden transition is being -- i think they're doing a fabulous job. i think they've made some important picks, but i would say to everybody who's watching whatever make-up you want to look at the cabinet, wait until we get to the end and you'll have, i think, a better and fuller picture. as geoff pointed out, we haven't seen yet two really important picks. one to lead the pentagon, even though we've seen the -- a bunch of the security team, and one that will lead the justice department that will have a huge impact on a lot of stuff. i would also say, a lot of these other picks that may not be top jobs but might be, say, the deputy treasury secretary or

something like that, i think one of the things, if you're going to see real step forward in racial equity and racial justice, it isn't just going to be through the attorney general. it's going to be throughout every policy in every department, right? so, the deputy treasury secretary that helps run that building is going to be important to make sure that all of those programs understand racial justice and racial equity. and that's true for lots of other departments throughout the government. so, i think they're being smart. i think they're making really good picks, and i think they're more good picks that will come that will show even greater diversity in selection and participation throughout this country. >> and we know nbc's geoff bennett will stay on top of it for us. robert gibbs, thank you for adding context. thank you both for suspending some time with us. when we come back, why britain beat the u.s. in the race to approve a coronavirus vaccine. that's next. race to approve a c vaccine. that's next.

country.

vaccine. country. vaccine. the reality is, december and january and february are going to be rough times. i actually believe they're going to be the most difficult time in the public health history of this nation. largely because of the stress that it's going to put on our healthcare system. >> some straight talk today from the head of the cdc of just how much worse the situation will get for hospitals as a record number of patients already fill beds and icus across the u.s. right now, there are more than 98,000 americans in the hospital with covid-19. about one fifth of them in icus and more than 6,000 of them right now on a ventilator. so far, more than 13.8 million have contracted the coronavirus, and more than 273,000 souls have been lost. but there's promising news again today on the vaccine front. the uk has cleared pfizer's candidate for use, the first

western country to approve any vaccine and while donald trump and members of his cabinet are reportedly admonishing the fda for not being the first, though the fda is scheduled to review pfizer's vaccine next week. politico reports the push is, quote, partially motivated by trump's desire to claim credit for record fast vaccine development, four officials said. joining our conversation is msnbc public health analyst, founding director of the national center for disaster preparedness at columbia university. dr. red letter, talk about what the vaccine rollout will mean in country. a lot of people hear it, they get excited, think we're going back to normal at the beginning of the year and it's going to take longer for people like me to get a vaccine, to get two shots, it would appear, before i'm actually immunized, right? >> right. that's correct, nicole. and you know, i'm generally the most half-empty glass person you're going to encounter, but i must say that the vaccine news in general is really good.

i don't want to take away from that at all. but here's some real facts that we need to understand. first of all, there will be a rollout this year. we will be able to vaccinate, i think, maybe around 12 million to 15 million people totally. that means with the two doses that they're going to need. and those people will have -- who have the first priority will be frontline healthcare workers, other frontline essential workers and particularly people who are vulnerable, older people in nursing homes and long-term care facilities. for you and me and most of the public, we're not going to see the distribution and availability to get vaccinated until at least the middle of 2021 if not a little bit longer. hopefully by next -- end of next summer, beginning of the fall, we'll have the vast majority of americans vaccinated if -- but if we get general acceptance of this, we have a very strong anti-vax movement in the country

and a tremendous amount of skepticism and cynicism that's been fomented by donald trump. he has created an unbelievable damage to our ability to believe anything that's coming out of government. so, one of the things that the biden/harris family team is going to have to do is reestablish the credibility of the federal government and its agencies in the minds of americans and that's going to be a big, you know, road to hoe there, but i think we're headed for good news. it's just going to take longer than most people are hoping. >> so, if before the end of this year, which is to say in the next 28 days, 28 days left in december, healthcare workers are vaccinated, what is happening between january 2021 and the summer? what takes six more months before people like you and me can get vaccinated? >> well, so, first of all, you have to actually manufacture not 330 million but 660 million doses. they have to be manufactured and then they have to be distributed and here's where a lot of the concern happens, because there

are so many places in the country where access to general healthcare is very, very limited, and getting, let's say, the pfizer vaccine to people has to be done under these extreme, crazy, frigid cold temperatures and that's no easy task. task. so we have all the distribution challenges and making sure everybody gets it and convincing people to take the vaccine. so it's going to take a long time and will this happen without hitches? properly not. we have to hang in there and make sure we don't give up on the physical separation, the masks and other measures we know what to do with. >> so there some concern people take their foot off the gas in terms of being vehicing vehicle with the vaccine news in the media. >> i surveyed 15 or 16 public health experts including a lot of our msnbc contributors last night and i'm getting responses

back about this. i was hoping that we'd get consensus that once you get the vaccine, you're going to be fine, and you can start really reducing the mask wearing and all that. that's actually not the case. we're going to have to hang in there and get the vaccine but also, we cannot stop the other measures we need to protect ourselves and neighbors and friends. >> as you said, a massive public education and public persuasion, sadly endeavor. we'll continue to turn to you for help with that. dr. irwin, thank you for spending some time with us. when we return, as we do every day. remembering lives well lived. vey day. remembering lives well lived i'm committed to making a difference in people's lives. my team helped expand the benefits of reflective technology, so it's highly visible when it needs to be, and less visible when it doesn't. whether you're hard at work or heading home for dinner, it's there when it matters most. we know that what we do helps more people get home safely.

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♪ suzanne michael was a hero and a teacher. one of her students, a teenager kept missing class to care for her baby brother. when social services stepped in, so did suzanne. she and her husband keith already had two children but together they made a decision and in july, they became foster parents, not just to that student that was missing class but to her two younger brothers, as well. the michaels now a family of seven were so happy. life was good. then, two months later, suzanne developed a cough and then a fever. she spent two weeks on a ventilator. kei kei keith, her husband got to the hospital ten minutes before she died. they were holding hands when she

passed away. now, keith is a single father to five wonderful children ages 3 to 22. he told the associated press that suzanne's death has been particularly hard on their new toddler so we'll end with keith's advice for the rest of us and it's really simple. hug your family he says, tell them you love them because some day you'll do it for the last time and you might not even know it. we will be right back. it we will be right back. ok everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. whoo-hoo! great tasting ensure with 9 grams of protein, 27 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients to support immune health.

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times. we have grateful. "the beat" with ari melbu rerks starts now. the top story tonight is now reporting that donald trump is mulling, how to use his soon expiring powers as president and considering unusual preemptive pardons for several of his children, son-in-law and embattled lawyer rudy giuliani who is under investigation in new york and donald trump junior and some chimp face separate charges in new york state. one sign of how serious this perhaps trial balloon is, donald trump sources, his media allies and people who talked to reporters, the way this works are already offering misleading spin for why if he does this, they say it would not be because he believes he or any of his family did anything illegal. now, i want to be clear with you tonight. i'm about to walk through all of this. those are just