it would go away without the vaccine, george. but it's going to go away a lot -- >> go away without the vaccine? >> sure. over a period of time. sure, with time. it goes away. >> and deaths? >> and you'll develop like a herd mentality. it's going to be herd developed and there's going to happen. that will all happen. >> i mean, seriously, what a -- >> it's hard to hear. >> what a stupid thing to say. what a stupid thing to say, except he knew he was lying. you know what the tell is? the tell is that he actually, six, seven months before had told bob woodward on tape he knew how serious this disease was. and that everything he had said after that really was a lie. completely contradicted by here you go, are you ready, those of you still in this personality

cult? it's all on tape. you see, his confession is all on tape. everything. how deadly the disease was. how -- it wasn't the flu. i know some of you said, hey, it's no different than -- no. your hero said it was five times worse than the flu, said that it impacted everybody. said it was really, really bad and that it was airborne. then he lied for the next six, seven, eight months. he was lying during the presidential debate. how many times did he tell you, starting in march that it was -- this is about to go away? how many times? so he lied to you dozens of times about this disease going away. and then finally, in the end, he just -- it's called the freudian slip in the business. he started to talk about herd immunity which of course he

dismissed in march because it would kill 2, 3, 4, 5 million americans. so mika, the lies they continued throughout the campaign and there's the president again saying it's going to go away and here we are at this stage, after all the times he said it was going away. all the times he said it was getting better. all the times he said we were rounding a corner. yeah, we have rounded a corner for the worst. joe biden was right. along with ron klain when they wrote an op-ed back in january of this year, saying the pandemic's coming. donald trump's not ready for it. he better listen to anthony fauci. they were right then. and they were right when joe biden said it was going to be a long, cold, dark winter. and of course, republicans acted all freaked out about that. you know, republicans you know what else they freaked out about for good reason? 9/11.

and a republican president along with the democratic congress, along with overwhelming number of american people retooled our entire foreign policy apparatus. for the 21st century, we are still in the mode that we converted to after about 3,000 people died on a beautiful, clear fall day in new york city in september of 2001. changed everything. now we have a 9/11 every day. and we have a president who still simply tweets conspiracy theories and i must say many of his followers whose heart has

been so hardened by the lies, whose minds have been so numb by the steady stream, the fire hose of falsehoods, the russian style propaganda where it's not just a big lie but a barrage of smaller lies that so numb followers from the truth that we can have a september 11th every day and they just don't give a damn about it. while the president keeps tweeting conspiracy theories. hospitals keep filling up. and americans keep dying, mika. >> a barrage of small lies and broken norms. it's just been -- it's made people so numbing that they don't see what's happening. what is happening is on the corner of the screen every morning when we do this show and

it's the number of people dead on his watch because he handled this so profoundly -- in such a profoundly backward way. those comments that we started the show with president trump back in september, take on a new meaning as we learned a top-appointed science adviser repeatedly urged administration health officials to adopt herd immunity as a top strategy for its covid-19 response. willie, one of many things that happened along the way during this pandemic that just boggle the mind and starting with the fact that the president didn't invoke the -- enforce the defense production act and get testing right. we still have terrible testing for this pandemic. >> yeah, we do. and that story you just touched on was a science adviser and hhs who suggested to the president and his boss that we try herd

immunity. herd immunity is letting the disease run its course, allowing healthy people to get sick which the science adviser said in a memo to his boss we ought to get everybody infected. we need more people infected. it's a quack theory that's been shot down by every doctor who has spoken publicly including dr. anthony fauci. he wasn't alone. scott atlas, a favorite of president trump, he was for herd immunity as well. let the disease run its course. that was a strategy being discussed inside the highest reaches of our government. as you say now, we set another record for daily deaths. mike pence said back in june in a "wall street journal" op-ed, there's no second wave. there will be no second wave. we're right in the moment that doctors predicted we'd be in, with the surge again in the fall and the winter here after that terrible early stretch and march and april. we're right back where they said we'd be. >> no second wave and you will remember donald trump said it

wasn't coming back in the fall. anthony fauci corrected him and said it was coming back in the fall. redfield said it was coming back in the fall. donald trump tried to force him to make quote corrections and apologize for what he said and he refused to say it. these scientists, these doctors, these people who have been trying to save lives since this pandemic hit, they knew it was going to be the worst pandemic since 1918. and they had to deal with the president that constantly was pressuring them to lie to the american people. >> you know, look at that graph. these -- this was something that could have been mitigated. that those numbers of deaths could go down had we done simple things that had the president led on them. this wasn't some complicate, scientific journey -- this was

simple, this was masking. this was ppe. this was the government getting behind not just vaccine research, but getting the ppe and the testing to the people so that we could contact trace and do it right. it was all done wrong and those deaths belong to donald trump many who know much more than us about this would agree with that. along with joe, willie and me we have politics editor for the daily beast, sam stein. nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early," kasie hunt with us with news on covid relief. >> so kasie, give us an update on the hill from covid relief. we have heard it was going to go forward, then mitch mcconnell told us earlier in the week it probably wasn't. now it looks actually like it's a fait accompli. they are moving forward with the deal that we outlined a couple of days ago. >> that's right, joe. it finally seems we're going to get some good news here and of

course this news -- the most important for all of those americans set to lose jobless benefits literally the day after christmas. the sense on the hill there was no option. they had to actually get this done and the deadline they finally ran out of deadlines. they kept moving the time line on this because there was always another day when they could address it. that's simply not the case anymore. and with, you know, as you have outlined the terrible toll that the virus is taking right now, even as we're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with the vaccines, they had to get something out the door. so we're hearing at this point that we could see the final package later on today. we're kind of in that situation where you could see it get delayed for a few hours. but i think that at this point, everyone both sides of the aisle, all the leadership are telegraphing the same thing which is they are going to get it done. it may take into the weekend. some key pieces of this, joe, we expect this deal to include

direct payments, stimulus checks, to americans. likely in the $600 range. some of these details are still being absolutely finalized. also, extended unemployment insurance benefits likely of about $300 a week. more money for small businesses. i think one key thing to watch here in the final days is money for restaurants. it's a huge part of the economy. it affects, you know, farmers. the supply chain. all the way on down. it's not just the restaurants themselves. they say that they're being left out that they need special relief here and that has been one of the last sticking points. we have been reporting. so something to keep an eye on here as they finally do close this deal. but bottom line, it seems like there's some good news for the holidays. >> all right. sam stein, direct payments and unemployment insurance needed after all these months so i guess the people watching today, why did this take so long? it's not a massive deal like was initially proposed by nancy pelosi of $3 trillion or even the second bid at $2 trillion. it will come in under

$1 trillion. i know a holiday deadline tends to hasten things in congress so they can get out of up to, but why did the american people have to wait all of these months and months to get this deal? >> it's a good question. i think it took this long precisely because a huge part of congress felt like the current situation called for $3 trillion. called for a package of that magnitude and we got to the point where i guess enough people had decided that something is better than nothing at all. you know, prior to the election, there was some coalition around 1.8 trillion dollars package. that was the deal that steve mnuchin and nancy pelosi got close to and it never happened. obviously the specifics here matter. there's been a push for a liability coverage for businesses that mitch mcconnell wants. and then on the flip side, there's been a push for state and local aid which the democrats want, citing the fact

that there's just not tax revenues to support public institutions, police, firehouses, schools, all that and so, you know, when you have those type of massive disagreements, congress really doesn't do much. now when you're at a deadline, of course, congress can act. i think the critics of this deal will point out when you go from $3 trillion to $900 billion, you're going to end up with a lot more hurt on the back end of it. but i guess at the end, something is better than nothing. >> so meanwhile, this is what the chairman of the senate homeland security committee ron johnson was focused on yesterday, holding a hearing on election irregularities. the wisconsin republican continued to maintain that there was fraudulent voting in the 2020 election. as did committee member rand paul. >> oh, good god. >> this hearing should not be controversial. even the courts have handed down

decisions and the electoral college has awarded biden 306 electoral votes, a lot of americans don't believe it is legitimate. this is not a sustainable state of affairs in our democratic republic. today we'll hear how the election law was not enforced and how fraudulent voting did occur as it always does. >> we can't just say it didn't happen. we didn't say, oh, 4,000 people voted in nevada that were noncitizens and we're just going to ignore it. we're going to sweep it under the rug, oh, the courts have decided the facts. the courts have not decide the facts. the courts never looked at the facts. the courts don't like the elections and so they stayed out of it by finding an excuse. standing or otherwise to stay out of it. but the fraud happened, the election in many ways was stolen. and the only way it will be fixed is by in the future reinforcing the laws. >> so what i want to know is, because we have had rand on the show. what does he get out of being a

liar? what does he get about lying to the american people? about things that he knows he's lying to the american -- he's been lying to his constituents and the american people about covid from the beginning. he's been shooting out conspiracy theories. he's used his position as a senator to lie repeatedly this year. he's used his position as a senator to lie about a stolen election. he's lying about courts, the federal courts have been quite clear. even the "wall street journal" opinion page admits it. national review has written numerous editorials about it. people who defended trump day in and day out, despite the fact that donald trump did all the things he did over the past four years which i won't get into. the federal courts, even those

people that were the strongest anti-anti-trump voices on the hard nationalist trumpist right have read the court proceedings. they have read what federal judges have said. which is you have given me no facts. no facts from which we can provide relief. no facts to back up donald trump's tweets that there was widespread voter fraud. in fact, andy mccarthy with national review, a guy who's defended trump every step of the way through all of his dealings with russia, even he brought up the fact that in a wisconsin federal court, in front of a trump appointed judge they had the opportunity to present facts. they had the opportunity to call witnesses. this is ron johnson -- they had

the opportunity to introduce documents to prove not widespread voter fraud, just fraud, any fraud. do you know what they chose to do? nothing. they said, you know what, we agree with biden's statement here. we'll stipulate to the facts. as andy mccarthy said which he should have said in the national review, it was shocking. it was shocking that they would actually continue to lie to the american people, that they would continue to spread the sort of lies that rand paul is spreading right now. that this election was rigged with the tell is always whether you're willing to put your name on the line at the bottom of the pleadings. and do you wonder why even the trumpiest of trump lawyers would never do that going into federal

court? never. oh, they'd hold the press conferences outside. we have evidence that martians have come down and they have taken over the bodies of republicans on the local level and have caused them to participate in widespread voter fraud. they will say that. they will say that outside. but then they go inside or something like that -- then they'll go inside, the judge says do you have any proof that there was widespread voter fraud? no, your honor. do you have any evidence that would support your claims that there was widespread voter fraud against donald trump? no, no, your honor, no, we don't have that either. well, are there any facts that the biden team has put forward

before this court in wisconsin and before me a trump appointed federal judge that you would disagree with? just one fact, is there one fact? that you trumpist lawyers would disagree with in front of a trump appointed judge in a federal court in wisconsin, what fact? well, your honor, no, not really. we -- we -- we agree with what president-elect biden's lawyers have said. hello. rand paul, why are you lying to the american people? why are you purposely inspiring people like the proud boys to go around and yell stop the steal and beating the hell out of people in the streets. rand, why are you doing that? what's -- i don't get it. what's in it for you, rand, to be a liar to your people?

to your constituents? why do you want to spread violence across america by spreading this lie? why do you want to undermine american democracy, why do you want to undermine faith in our system, rand? because i've got to say i don't get it. because you know it's a lie. you know there's no widespread voter fraud and yet, you keep stirring the lie up. so i'm just curious, what's in it for you? is this a 90/10 -- no, i think people in kentucky like american democracy. so who are you playing to? who is this for? donald trump's -- he's leaving the white house in a couple of weeks. you can't go golfing with him anymore.

huh, help us out here, rand. help us out. why do you keep lying to the people of kentucky? why do you keep lying -- we don't ron can help himself. he's ron. you ever see "anchorman?" he's brick. he loves lamp. that's fine. that's fine. we gotten to know ron through the years but you know better. i don't get it. put the trident in your hand down on the ground. mi mi mika? >> so it's performances not like that -- >> no, come on. you know it's true. >> i agree with you. >> it's crazy as hell that rand paul -- willie, first of all, willie, you agree with me about ron johnson being the brick of the united states senate i'm

sure. >> there's a potential for putting mayonnaise in the toaster. >> big time. >> but we're joking about this a little bit, but rand paul is purposefully undermining american democracy and he's lying and he's -- he's seen those court rulings. he's seen what trump federal judges have said. you've got nothing here. everyone is saying it. but what's in it for rand? >> i don't know the answer to that, but it's important i think to go back to the beginning of that sound bite we played from senator johnson which was that millions of people believe this election was illegitimate. well, millions of people believe it's illegitimate even though it wasn't because of hearings like that, because of republicans like rand paul and johnson that perpetuate the lie. what was valuable from the hearing, the testimony of krebs,

he spoke and he shot down systematically all of the lies that were coming from the panel. here he is. >> i would appreciate more support from my own party, the republican party to call this stuff out and end it. we've got to move on. we have a president-elect in president-elect biden. we have to move on. these officials that are republicans -- look at georgia, brad raffensberger, gabriel sterling, jeff duncan, these are republicans that are putting country over party. they're being subjected to just horrific threats as a result. this is not america. >> so joe, christopher krebs of course as the guy who was in charge of cyber security, he was fired by tweet by president trump for speaking the truth, that it was the most secure election in american history. and he patiently i should add yesterday sat there offered his testimony and explained to the members of the senate sitting on that panel why there was not

widespread fraud and why this was in fact a legitimate election. >> yeah, mika, there's just no evidence. no evidence that there's been widespread fraud. there will be trump appointed federal judges across america saying give me evidence. give me anything. and judge's lawyers have given them nothing because there are no facts that any lawyer would go before a federal judge and put before that court even the most conservative trump appointed judges because they would be sanctioned for lying. i guess it's a shame we don't have sanctions that are levelled against the united states senators when they purposefully lie to undermine american's faith in democracy. >> well, president trump's lies and performances from ron and rand is why a lot of republicans are leaving the party. joining us from the lincoln

project, jennifer horne, former chair of the new hampshire republican party and this morning we can call her a former republican overall. jennifer, thanks for coming on to share this with us. when you leave a party, usually it's because you don't have any hope for it anymore. that it could ever come back to what it was. tell us about your decision. >> well, first, good morning, mika and joe and everybody. thank you for having me on this morning. that's exactly the conclusion i have come to and to be frank it's not because of president trump. donald trump is a weak and cowardly man. he could have been defeated, pushed back, silenced at any time if the leaders of the republican party wanted to do so. if they had the will to do so. it's because of exactly what you have been talking about this morning. it's because of what we have seen in the weeks since the election from so many elected

republicans across this country who were willing to enlist in a coordinated, intentional effort to essentially overthrow democracy in the united states of america. it has become clear to me that the party of lincoln is no more. and the today's republican party cannot coexist with the ideal that we know america can be. >> you say this is the last straw for you and you write in "usa today" i found myself fighting for what i thought were the principles of my party in the ever deteriorating character and they have fallen at the feet of the most corrupt, destructive and unstable president in the history of our country. so what now to try and help put the country back on track. if you can't work in the party.

>> well, for me, it's always been about the principles, mika. what i thought -- what i thought were the shared principles of the republican party. i'm going to continue to be a voice for conservative values, conservative principles, for constitutional leadership and for compromise, for bringing people, good people, who care about the country, who want to solve the problem. to come together and be at the same table and have the conversations that have not taken place under republican majorities for a very long time. you know, there's a lot of disagreement out there, a lot of division out there. and the republican party has mined it to the financial and political benefit. i find that to be -- to be shocking, you know, to be unacceptable. and i think that we need republicans who care about the values of our country, the principles of our country, to

step away from the party and become part of an effort i guess to start focusing on solving problems again. >> so jennifer, joe, it's not just the former head of the new hampshire republican party, but a cofounder of the lincoln project and it's an incredible voice throughout this process and the lincoln project is one year old today. >> yeah. you know, jennifer, i just briefly -- we ought to just give people a little bit of background. you and i have -- i guess it's been years. we have been talking to each other -- >> don't start to age me, joe. >> yeah, exactly. and what we have talked about for years has not before about the democratic party. not been about independence. it's been talking about how do we make the republican party

stronger. and people don't understand, you literally dedicated, like me, most of your adult life to trying to make the republican party stronger. so when you have two people that dedicated their adult lives to trying to do that, one is a guy that got elected to congress four times and other a person who ran i think the most important state if you're just talking about obviously the presidential contest. and both of us have left the party. i'm sure five years ago, we both would have said we would have been republicans until our dying day. >> well, joe, i have come to understand that today's republican party does not want to be stronger the way that you and i define strength. just listening to rand paul and ron johnston in the clips that you played earlier, the lies, the misinformation, the

corruption, the assaults on democracy, they do that and they embrace it and stay with it because they benefit from the passion and the enthusiasm that doing so generates in the party base. the people who are willing to believe the lies, who want to embrace the ugliness that has been behind the trump presidency. the republican party has clearly made a conscious decision that they want to build their future on those people. on the ugliness, on the dishonesty, on the corruption. that's -- we can't -- they don't want to be the republican party that you and i used to know. >> yeah. >> cofounder of the lincoln project and as of today, a former member of the republican party, jennifer horn, thank you very much. >> and i have got to say, i mean, they have a good point. i can see why they wouldn't want to be the republican party that

we want to be because that was the par think of margaret thatcher, ronald reagan, all of those people. >> yeah. >> would have been -- that would have been the -- who the hell would want 2 hundred or so years, 250 years of tradition and a road map to gets through these tumultuous times. well, not this republican party, so i guess people like jennifer and i need to figure out what to do next. sam stein, you saw -- >> yeah. >> -- you saw chairman brick's committee hearing and i'm surprised by the fact that after telling mika for years to stop being so shocked and stunned by

abhorrent things that republicans are going to do. here i am, and i think a lot of people are still like me. still shocked to see just how much these republicans will not only degrade themselves politically and personally, but will also actively work in the same way that vladimir putin or the same way that president xi's apparatus or the same way that iran's apparatus, the mullahs in iran, north korea, he's working just as actively to undermine american's faith in our democracy as our enemies and rivals across the globe have been doing for years. so i'll just repeat the question. what's in it for rand paul to lie in a way that any court would call him out as a liar, saying there's widespread voter

fraud. what's in it for him to be a propagandist against american democracy? >> well, the conversation with jennifer horn and this one bleed into each other, right? rand paul and ron johnson are both up for re-election in 2022. when you are running in this current incarnation of the republican party, you are compelled to make wild, unsubstantiated, problematic claims like widespread voter fraud exists. it's not only a pretense to have more strict voting laws, but to appeal to the trumpism that has come to believe that the president was unjustly robbed of his election against all evidence. some people are smarter and know better. some people are not. but in the end, you end up at that same place which is if the base is so fervent in its belief

of wild conspiracy theories and you want to be part of the party, you feel compelled to cater to the base. the question i have for you, joe, and one i'll ask jennifer, you know, the question for republicans who don't believe the stuff and want to stand up against it is -- i'm sure you've grappled with this too. are you better off doing this from outside the republican party or within the republican party? is there a chance to make a case to change the republican party from within the republican party anymore? >> no, 85%, maybe, i don't know, a high number of republicans voted for a candidate last month who was calling for the arrest of his political opponent because he was losing in the polls. he was calling -- he was trying to pressure his attorney general to arrest his political opponent

two weeks out. that is a deal killer in itself and anybody who can support that and if 90% of any movement supports that, then they are post -- then they are a post democracy movement. i don't care what their position is on the import/export bank, if you're post democracy. i really don't care if you're a small government conservative. you're not, by the way. that's another thing, sam, it's not like i'm going oh my god, i'm going to have to leave a party that believes like me in small government and balanced budgets and less of a debt and stronger entitlement programs, no, they're not even that. and 80%, 90% of this republican party supported a president who

refused -- refused repeatedly to guarantee a peaceful transition. and they still support a president who has been lying repeatedly every day since the election, trying to undermine american institutions. so sam, there's no really compromising with that party and i don't know that there's compromising with the party that's continued to vote for a guy that proposed a muslim registry which we said here -- is it five years ago. five years ago that's what nazi germany -- well, that's what germany looked like before the nazis took over. germany in 1933 that voted for a guy, a couple of times, who before super tuesday in 2016 denied knowing who david duke was or who the ku klux klan was

and couldn't criticize him because he didn't know who he was. take it through charlottesville, take it to the rallies where he's telling black members of congress, women, to go back where you came from, to go home. who saluted political violence, who tried to stir up political violence saying that he would pay for people who beat up his opponents. he would pay their legal bills or saluting -- how about this, after using a stalinist phrase, talk about mixing your political metaphors for being a fascist, talking about enemies of the people. then actually tipping his hat and congratulating a congressman who beat up a reporter for asking a question about health care. and i could continue, but i

won't. because you have heard it for five years. and that political movement voted for a nationalist. a hyper nationalist who constantly was committing verbal war against others, talking in militarist terms, talking about seizing power. talking about having unlimited power under article ii of the constitution and acting like a fascist. i mean, do we call him a fascist? if it walks like a fascist, and it talks like a fascist, then maybe it is a fascist. i'm not saying the 72 million people who voted for donald trump are fascists, not at all. i know many of them. >> i'm not saying the tens of

thousands of people who died not following correct scientific standards for this virus because they followed him -- i mean, that happened. >> but what i'm saying is they voted for somebody who i think most political scientists would likely define as a fascist. and so no, i can't come back to that party. >> nope. still ahead on "morning joe," a second coronavirus vaccine could get approved for emergency use by the end of the day and we're happy to say that our next guest who has been on the front lines for months is now protected by it. dr. vin gupta received the vaccination this week and he joins us next to talk about it. but first, to bill karins with a check of the snowstorm in. >> yeah, this is epic in pennsylvania and the areas

around binghamton, new york, pennsylvania, we are getting 30 to 40 inch range. they got 20 inches of snow in five hours and the big cities didn't get hit too badly. inside the beltway, it wasn't nothing. the storm went further north than expected and hartford, albany, still adding up the snow. we have winter storm warnings up for 54 million people and the heaviest snow is over the capital district and it will head to new england, stay off the roads. later on this afternoon, things will improve. another three to six inches possible, southern new hampshire, southern maine and also sections of massachusetts. what a storm of the season. some people are waking up and shoveling 3 to 3 1/2 feet of

snow in southern new york. providence, a coating on the ground, not too bad for you. temperatures have been warm enough not to avoid anything like your friends that west of you have. you'll see another inch or two throughout the morning. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ever wonder what retinol dermatologists use to fight wrinkles? it's what i use! neutrogena®. the #1 retinol brand used most by dermatologists. rapid wrinkle repair® visibly smooths fine lines in 1 week. deep wrinkles in 4. so you can kiss wrinkles... and other wrinkle creams goodbye! rapid wrinkle repair®. pair with our most concentrated retinol ever for 2x the power. neutrogena®.

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vice president mike pence plans on getting his coronavirus vaccine shot on camera tomorrow morning at the white house. he will be joined by second lady karen pence and surgeon general jerome adams. president-elect joe biden expected to get a shot as soon as next week. unclear right now when president trump will receive the vaccine. joining us now, dr. vin gupta, a pulmonaryist and he has the

vaccine now. it was broadcast live yesterday. let me begin with how you're feeling. what's it like to get the shot and how does it feel a day later? >> i'm feeling great. there's some injection site soreness, but nothing that's not common with the annual flu shot, for example. i didn't have a fever or headache, some of the other mild symptoms that have been reported occasionally. i'm feeling great and so that's number one. number two, to answer your first question, we're over the moon in health care right now for what this vaccine means for the country. for all of us delivering clinical care. but especially what it means for our ticket out of this pandemic because, willie, you know, yesterday was the worst day of the pandemic in terms of deaths this country has faced. 3,600 deaths just in 24 hours alone. so there's a lot of excitement here, but it's -- and it's important to realize that this vaccine just two things. what i had gotten just in the

last day since the vaccine, i have gotten the vaccine is questions from people who are hesitant about receiving it and they're wondering, well, was the scientific process followed or was it politicized? people still have concerns about these questions and for all of your viewers out there indeed it was very, very strictly from the preclinical development of these vaccines, pfizer, moderna, through phase one and through phase two trials every step of the way science was put forward here and it's why i'll say really clearly this vaccine will save lives. it will keep you out of the icu and it will prevent severe pneumonia and it works across groups and demo groups. this is effective for everybody who will get it. >> you're obviously one of the first people in the country to get the first from dose and you're someone that our viewers

have come to trust over the years. for people considering getting the vaccine what do the next steps look like? how long will you wait for the second dose and then will you be confident that you're in fact immune from the disease, that you're fully vaccinated? >> sure. so let me walk folks through what to expect. if you don't have a pre-existing condition, if you're not living in a facility like the nursing home we're hoping you can get it in the march/april time frame for the general population. you will get an appointment through your doctor's office or you can sign up potentially at your local drugstore so there will be easy -- there will be a structured way to get appointments. that's how we get appointments and it's quite quick, you get monitored for 15 minutes after the injection. it is key because we have seen in cases where people do have

adverse events, those adverse events really crop up in the first of two minutes. you will be in the settings that the cdc is recommending in a setting if there's say an allergic reaction that was unexpected there will be oxygen and life-saving medications around. that's the -- the sites will be able to treat somebody if something unexpected were to occur. so i want to reassure individuals. after that, you'll get a card, i got one of these cards here that will tell you where to go, what was the date that you actually got, you know, the vaccine and then when do you have to come back. in my case it's 21 days so i'll get the second dose of the pfizer shot 21 days later and that we expect full immunity occurs a week after that second shot. >> dr. gupta, two questions, two-fold questions because i

think it's important to talk about the moment right now where many are not receiving the vaccine, but we know moderna's vaccine is going to be folded into what's headed out to the public at some point and some people who are suffering mentally in the isolation. what is the time line on this vaccine being fully executed to the public in a way that maybe we're not back to normal, but we're back to being able to have a life where we do not live it in isolation anymore. what does that look like? how should the public conduct itself now until then? >> good morning, mika. i'm glad you asked that -- both questions. we are expecting that full rollout, full access for our vaccine supply isn't being rationed, where there's no more tiered -- this tiered system of

rollout that that's -- that march/april time frame here. we expect that if you want -- if you're hopefully willing to get that vaccine, there's no reason not to get the vaccine that everybody who's willing to receive it will have received that dose by no later than by the end of may. so there's still a road ahead here in terms of safely getting the vaccines to everybody, that's eligible for the vaccine across the country. i should note that there's still some guidelines here that we're waiting for in terms of when children will be eligible for receiving that vaccine. studies, the trials have not studied that yet, so we're waiting for the guidelines. to your second question here, there's some confusion and i want to reassure individuals that the way we're living right now is not the way in which our lives are going to be conducted forever. there is the big question here. we do know that vaccines prevent

somebody from ending up in the icu where they see me or my colleagues. so severe illness and deaths are prevented from this vaccine. that's vital. what we don't know, but we have early signs of is transmission of the virus also mitigated from the vaccine, meaning asymptomatic spread. there's the notion that the vaccine can prevent severe illness but we don't have definitive data yet. moderna showed some signs of it in the press release recently, do they prevent transmission as well, meaning can someone carry it in the nose and spread it to others and if it's true that the vaccine indeed prevents transmission in addition to severe infection, then those who receive it potentially might be able to normalize life slightly more quickly. that's why the guidelines are sort of very clear, even after you know get that second dose as

you get your vaccines please continue to mask and distance until we have greater clarity of the data and that should be coming in the coming weeks. >> dr. vin gupta, thank you very much. we appreciate you coming on this morning. coming up, yesterday, we told you that secretary of state mike pompeo was a no show at a party he wanted for himself and had planned for hundreds of people to attend amid the raging pandemic. this morning, we know why he didn't show. we'll explain next on "morning joe." we'll explain next on "morning joe. ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment. with zero down, zero due at signing,

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sam stein, to pick up on the conversation we were just having with dr. gupta, you have an amazing piece in the daily beast, that yes, the vaccine is a blessing and it means that health care workers and people on the front lines can rest assured they won't get it, but it doesn't make their jobs any easier. the ers are still overrun with

cases in the piece you ran in providence, rhode island. >> yeah, it gets to the very strange, sad dichotomy we're living in which is we're at the moment with such an intense momentous breakthrough, a medical miracle that's coming at the same time we're at the literal worst time with the hospitals completely overwhelmed, nurses being forced into ppe shortages. just an unsurmountable amount of human suffering and it's tough to describe the emotions that you feel internally. we have such severe problems with our health care system caused by the pandemic. i have to bring my kid in for the covid test yesterday and they said it will take three to five days to turn them around because there's so much testing happening right now. so yeah, you feel great that we're at this point where we can see the light at the end of the

tunnel but it's also tremendously bleak. we can't lose sight of how much we have to do to get this virus under control and we have to keep masking and distancing even after this is administered. a very strange dichotomy. >> sam, thank you. still ahead, developing news overnight on covid relief negotiations. lawmakers on a brink of a deal that includes direct payments to americans. we'll be right back. americans. we'll be right back. shark iq robot deep cleans and empties itself into a base you empty as little as once a month. and unlike standard robots that bounce around it cleans row by row. if it's not a shark, it's just a robot. look at this human trying you know what he will get? muscle pain. give up, the couch is calling. i say, it's me, the couch, i'm calling. pain says you can't. advil says you can.

this message isn't for everyone. it's for all those people who refuse to wear a mask. you know, lying in isolation in icu for seven days i thought about how wrong i was to remove my mask at the white house. and how wrong it is to let mask wearing divide us. if you don't do the right thing, we could all end up on the wrong

side of history. please wear a mask. >> that is former new jersey governor chris christie, sending out a message. believe it or not, still very important for a large segment of this society to hear. people who have attacked those who wear masks. i know that there -- it's gone in the other direction as well. but, you know, mika has shown me a story or two of people on their death beds who have regretted being duped and being wrong about, well, just about everything in this covid crisis. this is -- when we first started talking about this in early march, when i was pleading with president trump every day and saying i was very hopeful that people would follow scientists

and doctors my plea was this. that this pandemic is not going to be about politics. it's going to be about medicine. it's going to be about science and viruses don't care about your politics. they don't care about your political registration. they don't care about your talking point. viruses are just looking to attach to people and to get them sick and kill them. so here we are. all -- over 300,000 deaths later, it's still necessary for public opinion shapers to come out and tell you to wear a mask. i hope you'll listen because chris christie saw up close and personal in a way that we don't want you or any of your loved ones to ever have to experience what he experienced.

what happens when you do brush aside medicine. when you do dismiss health care officials. when you do ignore science. >> along with joe, willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. jim messina who served as chief deputy white house chief of staff. from the school of public affairs at the university of texas, msnbc contributor victoria defrancesco soto. from the house oversight committee, kurt bardella, a columnist from "usa today." >> so victoria, i wanted to -- let's start with you. we're going to kind of go in a different direction here because we can go in any direction we want. i wanted to ask you about the article i read from the greatest

name of the -- the greatest name for a website ever, slowboring.com. i love that. but he's talking about hispanic gains that donald trump made, latino gains made by donald trump, despite the fact that he said racially insensitive things all along. i'm going to pick this up with matt because it's very compelling, because a lot of people say, oh, this was only south florida. he said, racism can be a fact, they had slavery and jim crow but a slightly odd ground zero for white backlash politics. 3% asian and a whopping 30% hispanic, a political party that not only relies on white racism for votes but is increasingly reliant on the exclusionary of

the white men's country and should be having problems in florida. he explains this is not the case, but this is what's eye popping. take your eyes off of florida for a second and matt points to this data. trump did 19 points better with hispanics in lawrence, massachusetts. 16 percentage points better in the south bronx. 11 points better in chicago's 22nd ward and 18 points better in imperial county, california. so this just wasn't where donald trump focused and his team focused in miami-dade. these were in deep blue states where nobody campaigned. where voters saw very few targeted ads and hispanics from california to illinois to massachusetts, there are pockets where hispanics took a sharp turn right in 2020.

>> and i appreciate, joe, that we're zooming out and looking beyond just florida, just texas and looking at latinos across the nation because latinos are in every state in this country, not just in your floridas, or in your texass. so it's important to understand that diversity of the latino population. and what we saw is a lot of latinos responding to the outreach that trump made to them. so in contrast to 2016, when the trump campaign basically ignored latinos, there was no targeted approach at the latino electorate, 2020 was different. there was a very heavy investment in the latino outreach. we saw president trump unveil a number of executive orders targeted at hispanic prosperity. people remember the goya fallout, the boycott of goya

foods, but what was behind that was he brought together several hispanic business leaders to say what are we going to do for hispanic prosperity? on the flip side, when we look at the democratic party, we saw that the democrats mainly because of the pandemic did not put into place their traditional grass roots mobilization that very aggressive direct contact, shoe leather politics. this is a two-fold story. why did the latino vote go in some of the pockets that way, it was because of that and the last point, latinos care about more than immigration. when folks think about latinos voting for trump, how could you support somebody who is so against immigration, others don't. it's this multifactorial equation in understanding why latinos just like kind of white swing voters will have different preferences as well.

>> yeah. jim messina, i understand that. but donald trump put hispanic kids in cages. donald trump called hispanics breeders. donald trump has said that he couldn't trust a judge from indiana because he was hispanic. and he would be biased because his parents were from mexico. he after a devastating hurricane was cold and heartless to the people of puerto rico. so help me understand this doesn't seem like the best outreach to target a certain demographic group and yet, donald trump made very big gains in what hispanic latino

communities that he spent four or five years demonizing and insulting. >> well, joe, you're not going to get me to defend president trump, no chance of that, but what victoria said is right. these swing voters are just like everyone else. there's the assumption sometimes in d.c. politics, oh, latino voters are about immigration. but they want what everyone wants, which is an economic vision, talking about education and health care and his campaign showed up and gave them an economic message. they stayed focused on this economic message and in part why trump closed at the end, is because the undecided voters started to think about the economy at the very end and trump had a message for them. it wasn't enough to win an election, he was defeated thankfully. but he did have a message and victoria's right that was an economic message and it's a good reminder to democrats when you look at this thing that you have to have a vision and an economic

message to these incredibly crucial voters and show up and have these discussions with these voters. that's why we did better in rural america, why we did better in suburban america, but sometimes we take these voters for granted and think oh it's a turnout game. it is not a turnout game. 's a persuasion game and sometimes democrats forget that and as we govern for the next two years we have to remember to continue to talk about the economic and daily lives of these absolutely crucial swing voters. >> well, the u.s. set another record for cases. hospitalizations and deaths yesterday. according to nbc news data, more than 230,000 cases and 3,200 deaths were reported, breaking records set exactly one week ago. the covid tracking project reports the seven-day average for deaths is rising in 23 states and that a record 113,000 people are currently

hospitalized with the virus. "the washington post" has new reporting on hospitals being pushed to the breaking point, describing how some are quote, scrambling to reconfigure themselves to handle a crush of patients streaming in after holiday gatherings and the arrival of flu season. meanwhile, there is optimism on the hill this morning that a coronavirus relief bill could finally be reached. >> we made major headway toward hammering out a targeted pandemic relief package. it would be able to pass both chambers with bipartisan majorities. we committed to continuing these urgent discussions until we have an agreement. and we agreed we will not leave town until we have made law. >> the finish line is in sight. everyone wants to get this done. let's push through the few final meters and deliver if the

outcome that the american people very much need. >> congressional leaders and the white house are working out the final details of a likely $900 billion deal that is expected to be released later today. included in the bill is said to be direct payments of at least $600 per person based on income. the bill will include money for small businesses and money to distribute covid-19 vaccines. however, it will not include the disputed state and local funding and liability protections. there's plenty of urgency to get a deal done soon. not only because benefits run out later this month, but because lawmakers also want to include this bill in a government funding bill that runs out tomorrow night. the majority leader warned republicans they're likely to be in washington for the weekend. >> so, willie, we have been talking about this now for

several weeks. that throughout much of this young century we have seen republicans get their caucus become more conservative. we have seen democrats caucus become more progressive with red state democrats in the senate quitting or being defeated. but we're seeing something quite different now and that is a pretty strong center, sort of a center of power. mitch mcconnell said earlier in this week, basically, this bill wasn't going to move forward. joe manchin and others said it was going to move forward. and, you know, this is again -- i'm always a little too hopeful i guess, but i'm hopeful that we're going to have republicans and democrats looking up at -- you know, e pluribus unum and understanding that, you know, out of many, one. we can get things done.

but listen to -- this is a pretty strong caucus, conservative/moderate caucus. where you have kristen sinema and mark kelly, governor hickenlooper will be sworn in, manchin, romney, collins and murkowski. i think i'm going to be repeating it a lot more over the next four years, lindsey graham has been in the middle of these negotiations. i think you're going to see chris coons from delaware, a border state who's going to be in the middle of these negotiations. you know, we're going to have 8, 9, 10 senators who can really determine which way -- which way the senate moves and because there's such a narrow gap between democrats and republicans in the house, there's going to be a lot of

deal making there too. i was there when there was a four vote majority for republicans and we made a lot of deals based on what was best for america and not based on what our leaders wanted. >> yeah. of course, house democrats, nancy pelosi, were hoping they were going to run up the score on election day, get a big majority so they could run through whatever they wanted, that didn't happen. they lost about every single of the tossup races and joe manchin and mitt romney have been in the center of this $900 billion deal so let's hope. it's been a strange 4 1/2 years to say the least in congress. let's see if this storm passes, if they can get back to some semblance of negotiation with the center that does hold. mike, if you look at this deal, $900 billion, it's good news. it took the pressure of those wanting to get out of town and back home for the holidays,

$600, some unemployment insurance which is good news. you can't help but wonder if this had happened months and months ago. you think about the lives that were changed, while congress sort of sat on its hands with a deal on the desk for mitt romney and a proposal from nancy pelosi that went nowhere through the summer and the fall and now approaching winter. good news for sure, but where was it six or seven months ago? >> well, willie, that's the whole ball game. you just defined it. the indifference over the congress of the united states at, both the senate and the house for weeks on end. the indifference to people who have been evicted from their homes already. people who are desperate for aid, financial assistance, for weeks and months. and right at the 11th hour -- literally as the clock strikes midnight they're finally going to get some aid.

one of the big things missing in there in terms of they swapped the liability provision which is now out of the bill, apparently, state and local governments get no aid. and that's going to be critical going forward. but the coalition that brought this together and joe just mentioned several of them, members of the senate, the coalition that brought this together and apparently will push it over the finish line hopefully today, that bodes well for the incoming biden administration because there's enough members of the united states senate you can put something together in a deal on specific legislation going forward and i think that's what the biden administration is looking forward to getting done. and hopefully, you know, the country will see a lot more getting done in the future, in the immediate future than we have seen in the past. >> well, we have an update now on a story we brought you yesterday where secretary of state mike pompeo didn't attend a party that he had planned for

hundreds of people. >> i hate when that happens. >> amid the raging pandemic. he was planning 900 people to come together. but he didn't go and he chose not to speak because enough people did not go and in fact, only 70 people rsvp'd. i think people are getting the message that the parties at the white house and the state department are superspreaders and we know why. he is quarantining after being exposed to someone with covid. for days, pompeo has been meeting with scores of diplomats and dignitaries for indoor holiday gatherings. the people were in close contact and many were not wearing masks. another party scheduled for last night for 180 foreign ambassadors and chiefs of mission had been canceled. however, "the washington post" reports foreign embassies were told the party had just been

postponed due to unforeseen circumstances. i mean, joe, the last party that he was at i showed a picture in "the washington post" where he wearing no mask is putting his around some woman who looked like she was scared and was trying to take a picture with her. wear a mask and stay home. what else do people need to know that right now is not the time to have a party, let alone the chief diplomat for the united states of america. >> well, inside spaces, we always -- we always saw those pictures of the white house of everybody outside and, yes, you can get covid when you're outside, when somebody's in your face. but i think it was the inside reception at the white house that probably caused the real problem with the spread of covid. so if they wanted to -- if pompeo wanted to walk out tonight in the snow and have a reception out in the snow or even put a tent outside, open

everything up, get the ventilation through, that would be another thing. same thing with the white house, wear a mask when you're close to somebody. like if you're within -- you know, within six feet wear a mask. kurt, i don't know if you call it arrogance. i don't know what you call this. i know historians are going to have a heck of a time trying to explain why the most people -- powerful people in the most powerful country on the planet acted as ignorantly as they did regarding a killer virus in the worst pandemic in over a century. we will not be able to explain this to people 20 years from now because it is so asinine. it makes so little sense that these people with ivy league degrees are acting so stupid. >> yeah, joe. as you said, arrogance.

you know, we have people here who have access to the most informed, brilliant, smart information scientists, doctors, epidemiologists, known the world over and yet we see them make decisions that put themselves and everybody else in harm's way. you know, it's that reason, you know, another event that happened not that long ago was the country music association awards, the cmas. it was indoors, people weren't wearing masks and we find out that the late great charley pride who was at this event, flew from texas to nashville, participated in it. and a month later he dies. and it has people asking the question, you know, how many more people do we need to put at risk, how many more people to we need to needlessly lose, especially right now where we have a vaccine and we have -- you know, we have the finish

line within sight here. how hard is it to just shut up, put a mask on, stay inside, stay home, stay away from people and not have any more loss of life when we are this close to having something that will protect people and keep people safe and get people through this and it's caused such a great amount of anger in the country music industry. artists who looked at charley pride and this is not someone we needed to lose right now this didn't need to happen and then you look at what's going on in washington with these type of events and it's just maddening, joe. >> yeah. just maddening. i wonder, kurt, i'm always optimistic. i guess i have been overly optimistic about the institutions holding and i

remain optimistic we'll see senators who are going to want to get things done. they're going to be tired of sitting back, listening to their leadership, and watching presidents sign executive orders which barack obama and donald trump have done through most of their presidencies, because they couldn't get anything through congress. i actually think we're going to have some republicans and democrats, at least eight, nine, ten, who actually want to be part of this process again. >> i hope so. i mean, i like to think, joe, if you are a member of the congress, u.s. senator, elected people the people, you're tired of being held hostage by someone's twitter feed. you look at the lack of productivity in the last four years, the senators have been muzzled and they don't want to get an angry tweet sent at them. i hope that goes away when we

turn the calendar to january 20th and that people remember in the first place why they're in washington to serve the will of the people. there are so many things that haven't gotten done, and it's easy at times to forget that even though we're here in this pandemic. the problems that we have that nothing -- been made progress on, they're still there. in fact, they have gotten much worse and they have been exasperated by the covid crisis. this is a time for meaningful action and not incrementalism and not doing barely enough like with this covid stimulus round. it's the least they could be doing at the very last second. we need bold reforms in this country because these institutions, they're decaying right now. and unless we actually have leadership from both parties, we have people who are willing to set aside the partisanship, set aside the noise and stop worrying about people's twitter feeds, these things need to be addressed because the people are in dire straits right now.

>> jim messina, i wonder if you'd play devil's advocate here on my argument that we actually have a senate that's moving more toward the center. you know, we lost the ben nelsons and the other red state democrats, but now we have mark kelly, kristen sinema, hickenlooper. of course, joe manchin, working with mitt romney, working with murkowski, working with susan collins. lindsey graham is getting back into the mix now. i see eight, nine, ten people in the senate that are going to want to move an agenda forward. i'm wondering if i'm being overly optimistic. are you far more skeptical? >> no, i'm with you, i'm an optimist. look, i worked as young senate staffer, we actually got some stuff done. we did the block and tackling of

getting the budget passed and we had some stuff done. i look at this, joe, i think what you think. there's going to be some people who want to get stuff done. the most important thing that is getting done this week isn't the bill and it's great, yes, it took too long, yes it's not enough, but the fact that you had leaders of those parties stand up to their own political leadership and say, no, we're going to get something done. we're going to pass it now. we're going to come together. and both parties didn't get what they wanted. democrats didn't get the overall number they wanted, republicans, you know, had to give up liability protection. that's a compromise. you showed the boring statements from schumer and mcconnell and that's the sausage making of government. and that's what we want to get back to. i think we can actually get back there and joe biden's the perfect person for this. i'm actually even more optimistic than you are because we have some people who want to say look, i'm not a potted

plant. i want to go to washington and actually get some stuff done. hit some singles, hit some doubles and just get government working again. >> it would be nice. >> thank you guys so much, jim messina and kurt bardella. think about back in the '90s i would see time and again, you actually had to take things through the subcommittee. then it would go through the main committee. then it would go on the floor, there would be a lot of fighting, a lot of amendments, everybody was involved in that process. in the senate they'd do the same thing. i know it's schoolhouse rock. and then we'd have conference committee, we'll fight it out, debate it out and then the senate would get its way, then we'd go back and we'd vote again. and you actually had people part of the process. i think we did a better job. republicans and democrats, in

the house and the senate, because everybody was involved. willie, when you have everybody involved that makes such a huge difference. over the past decade it's been leaders. like two or three people in the house, two or three people in the senate making decisions behind closed doors. and dealing with the president. and the entire process, the genius of madisonian democracy was ignored. there were just a handful of people making massive decisions. i am like jim messina, i am hopeful. i believe that you have senators that are going to want to legislate again and house members that want to legislate again instead of just blindly following what a president or a minority or a majority leader tells them to do. >> yeah, let's hope they're not frozen in place because of another tweet from president

trump or fear of his media networks. let's bring in someone who has a say in this. tim kaine of virginia. we can talk about that larger issue in a moment. but let's get right to the business at hand, this covid relief package reported to be around $900 billion. how close are you all to agreeing on something and getting that money into people's pockets? >> willie, i think we're there. i think the agreement has basically been reached and we're now, you know, putting the legislative text together. i was involved with the gang of eight that negotiated this deal. lindsey graham and i mike crapo, chris coons, dick blumenthal, we worked on the state and the local aid and the liability and we narrowed our gaps but we couldn't get there. but then we went back to the gang of eight, you shouldn't let this block everything else because state and local aid and liability don't have a december 31 drop dead date so we can talk

about those in january. i think it will be a good deal. a good deal for a short period of time. just to the end of the first quarter but the president-elect has said that covid economic recovery package is his first legislative priority so we'll be working on this after this emergency relief package. i feel good about where we're going. >> so senator, the $1,200 direct payments in the first c.a.r.e.s. act obviously were so important to help some people weather the storm in this country. reports that it's about $600. how did you all arrive at that number? >> you know, the republicans in the senate had sort of a top-line number. they didn't want to go above $900 billion package. so frankly what we had was a negotiated agreement on $740 billion. we were going to try to do $160 billion for state aid. but because we couldn't close the gap on the liability protection, we just basically took the 160 and reprogrammed it to stimulus checks for hard-hit

folks. it was sort of the top-line amount that drove how much was available in stimulus. but on top of the stimulus checks, unemployment assistance, eviction assistance, aid for schools, food aid, public transportation, vaccination and health care assistance so there's a lot of important investments here that will help people out. >> senator, can you help our viewers understand the state and local aid which as you said will be revisited early in the new year. why is that such a sticking point for republicans, why don't they want that money out to the police and the cops in this bill, the firefighters? >> well, i was a mayor and governor so state and local aid really matters to me. if you talk to republicans, you hear some different things. some don't like -- they're not wild about their own governors, maybe democratic governors and they worry about dollars being given to states with the governors having discretion on how to spend it. some don't think the states have

been hit that hard and obviously there's variation among the states in terms of how hard folks have been hit. and some point out that some of the c.a.r.e.s. act money to states have not yet been spent. what i come back to is i look at how states and local budgets had been hit and ravaged as revenues have fallen and how the expenses in dealing with covid in every aspect of public life have gone up. you start to see states having to furlough first responders and the worst time to do it is in a pandemic but we can get to the state and the local government deal. the difference between january 5th and december 20th is minimal. we have to work harder on sort of parrying that out with meaningful, and reasonable, but not overly restrictive liability

protections. >> senator, mike barnicle is here. >> first of all, it seems a lot to say this, thank you for doing your job along with the gang of eight and getting some legislation passed today, hopefully. but on the larger issue that you were talking to, aid to state and local government, you mentioned some senators don't like their governor, some senators, blah blah blah, whatever, have an opposition to state and local aid, but the idea of state and local aid being missing from this package right now and the idea that it's going to result in layoffs of employees of state and local governments and a real hit to local economies in various states what is the timetable? you mentioned january 20th, for putting together a state and local aid package that will help revive the local economies in various states and bring back some people who probably are going to get laid off. >> mike, we'll have to do it. i mean, one good thing about

this package that we're going to pass that has significant funding for education and as you know, education is the biggest line item in every local and state budget so there is aid to state and local priorities, but now what we're talking about is things like first responders, health workers, police, fire. the needs are significant and dire. the republicans in the senate, said, look, we're not going to do that unless you pair it up with some liability protection and we're trying to do the right thing early in the pandemic. so we're going to keep working on it. so the good news is it's going to be the biden administration's first priority and they'll probably start rolling out, you know, the package that they want. even more inauguration. so we can go right to work on as soon as the new congress is sworn in. >> another story i want to ask you about, right around the time that vladimir putin congratulated joe biden to be

the president-elect, of course, beating mitch mcconnell to the punch on that, the news broke of this huge russian hack. russian hackers responsible for infiltrating computer systems at multiple u.s. agencies including the pentagon, the department of homeland security, the department of treasury and the more you read about this, the bigger you see it is. what's being done? what do we know about this and what's in peril because of it? >> my colleague, senator dick durbin said this is almost like a declaration of war, what russia did. they used a contractor in austin, texas, that does work not only with not only all of our intel facilities but with many corporations and they bore

burrowed into the networks and we have a sophisticated system, we spent billions of dollars to enable us to discover hacks and the russians got by it. they got by it and there's got to be a consequence. i don't expect, frankly, which will get completely candid answers out of the trump administration. i has to be the new national security team that will tell us how badly we have been compromised and then put consequences on the table for the russian intelligence apparatus that did this. >> all right. senator tim kaine, thank you very much for being on this morning. i should point out bipartisanship. you play a mean harmonica. we have video of you and lamar alexander bringing some christmas joy into the heart of the senate office building. let's turn it up. ♪

very nice. tim kaine, thank you very much for being on the show this morning and thanks for that. merry christmas. >> thank you, mika. >> yeah, lovely. thank you. ahead, we have breaking news out of france. french president emmanuel macron has tested positive for covid-19. we'll talk about it straight ahead. covid-19 we'll talk about it straight ahead. come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card.

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french president emmanuel macron has tested positive for covid-19. the government statement suggested he was experiencing some symptoms, but did not specify which ones. macron will now isolate for seven days and plans to continue to work and carry out his duties remotely. now to canada and they became

one of the first countries to administer the covid vaccine on monday. five were among the first canadians to receive the vaccine at one of toronto's hospitals. this comes as ontario is warning hospitals to get ready for a surge of patients. nonessential businesses like malls and restaurants have been ordered to close in the york region by the ontario government as cases spike. the province reported more than 2,000 cases for a second day in a row. joining us now, minister of health, the honorable christine elliott. thank you for being on. we'd love to know how things are going in canada, pertaining to the virus. ontario specifically compared to the u.s., you are all expecting a surge. how do the numbers look compared to ours? >> well, the numbers we have been able to manage pretty well up until now. in fact, ontario right now has

the lowest number of cases per 100,000 of any jurisdiction in north america except for our atlantic provinces which are in a bubble right now. but we are experiencing a surge in cases right now. it's putting our hospitals to the limits, but we're managing. as with everybody else we're going through a surge and ontario is no different. >> and what do you attribute the surge to? is it the thanksgiving holiday? and also, what do you attribute your relatively lower numbers to? >> well, i think the surginesur think we're seeing it everywhere and there's a certain amount of covid fatigue that's setting in and because there's a vaccine on the horizon they don't need to practice the public health measures we have been advising since the beginning of the

pandemic. but we're urging people to follow those measures because even though there's vaccine available now, it's going to take some months before everyone in ontario what wants to receive a vaccine will receive a vaccine. >> sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt you there. i was curious to know because we're going through it here in the united states obviously on a case by case, city by city, state by state basis, what toronto has done in terms of shutdowns. how restriction it is it with schools and with restaurants? >> it is important for us to keep our schools open because we know that's really important for young people. both for their physical health and their mental health, to keep them in school and learning. but we also have different regions that we have set up according to different public health guidelines. you can move from green is the lowest level which is the safest level, all the way up to a

lockdown. so we have some areas that are in lockdown right now including toronto where stores are closed, restaurants are closed. we have -- we're encouraging people not to move around too much. it's -- it's the toughest for people especially at the holiday season. but it's really important to help us to limit that community transmission. so that we can -- our hospitals are able to cope and that people are going to able to move around safely. >> well, we really appreciate the leadership on this. i'm sure it's helpful in mitigating the spread of the virus. deputy premier and minister of health, the honorable christine elliott. thank you. coming up, we'll talk to house majority leader steny hoyer about the latest with the covid relief negotiations. otiat.

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president-elect joe biden

tapped former 2020 rival buttigieg to serve as the next transportation secretary. if confirmed, the former mayor of south bend, would become the first openly gay historic nomination yesterday. >> i can remember watching the news 17 years old in indiana seeing a story about an appointee of president clinton named to be an ambassador, attacked and denied a vote in the senate because he was gay. at that age i was hoping to be an airline pilot, and i was a long way from coming out, even to myself. two decades later i can't help but think of a 17-year-old somewhere who might be watching us right now. i'm thinking about the message that today's announcement is sending to them. >> so mika, also mayor buttigieg becomes the first millennial to serve in a cabinet bringing perhaps a new vision for what infrastructure and transportation can look like in this country. >> oh, wow. hope he knows how to use a

phone. that's great. a millennial in charge, they'll all be on text. let's get to some of the other headlines making news this morning, tyson foods fired seven managers at an iowa pork processing plant after investigating allegations they bet on how many workers there would get sick from the coronavirus. the scheme occurred early in the pandemic as the virus ripped through the plant where roughly 1,000 of the 2,800 employees tested positive for it back in may. the company hired former u.s. attorney general eric holder last month to investigate the allegations after they were raised in a wrongful death lawsuit filed by families of workers at the plant who died from the coronavirus. tyson foods' ceo released a statement saying, quote, the behaviors exhibited by these individuals do not represent the tyson core values.

and the commerce department reported yesterday that u.s. retail sales fell more than expected in november, likely weighed down by the raging new covid-19 infections and decreasing household income. it is the second straight monthly decline raising questions about how retailers are faring in the all important holiday shopping season. and about the stability of the broader economy. victoria defrancesco soto, i say it again and again, the president likes to look at the stock market and different things and different types of numbers, but there are people out there who have been wiped off the map by this pandemic. >> and there's so much pain, immediate pain right now in the short-term, and then there's also the pain that's going to be felt, mika, in the medium to long-term, so in that immediate pain we know that about 4 million workers have already lost their benefits.

so this stimulus bill is going to be a critical lifeline, but what happens to those folks who had a little bit of a cushion of savings? and they had to deplete that. so this is a group of folks that in the next year, two years, three years are on the brink of falling into poverty if they have a personal emergency or if someone loses a job in their household, and then you look to the long-term when we think about how adding a current job is about one's present livelihood but also paying into retirement, and as someone who does a lot of work on women's economic equity, this is something that especially affects us women because we know that we lost the most jobs as a result of the covid she session and we also know that a lot of women just had to stop going to work because there was no one to take care of their kids. schools were shutting down, so a lot of women had to voluntarily leave the work force. what is this going to do for our benefits, for our 401(k)s when

we are in our 60s and 70s. this is a problem in the short-term but decades out as well. >> absolutely. i mean, women have been set back in many ways some would argue from this presidency and then this pandemic, wow. massive setback for most women who ended up having to carry everything and put aside their jobs at times. president-elect joe biden renewed his call for most schools around the country to reopen within the first 100 days of his administration. according to "the washington post," during a virtual call with 31 governors, biden acknowledged that doing so is going to take a lot of money, but we know how to do it. he also added if the funding is there, his administration can provide everything from ventilation to more teachers and smaller class sizes. biden first announced the goal last week as part of his plan to

fight the pandemic. he also called on congress to make sure there is enough funding for students and teachers to safely return to classrooms if you can imagine this didn't happen under this president. this has been such a -- these are basics that could have brought kids back to school safely. still ahead, a conversation about president trump's impact on america's institutions in the wake of his ongoing assault on the 2020 election results. "morning joe" is coming right back. ♪ ♪ still warm. ♪ thanks, maggie. oh, alice says hi. for some of us, our daily journey is a short one. save 50% when you pay per mile with allstate. pay less when you drive less.

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it is going to disappear. it's going to disappear. it would go away without the vaccine, but it's going to go away a lot faster with it. >> it will go away without the vaccine? >> sure, over a period of time. >> and many deaths. >> and you'll develop like a herd mentality.

it's going to be herd developed, and that's going to happen. that will all happen. >> i mean, seriously. what a -- >> it's hard to hear. >> what a stupid thing to say. you'd say it would be what a stupid thing to say except he knew he was lying. you know what the tell is? the tell is that he actually six, seven months before had told bob woodward on tape he knew how serious this disease a was and that everything he had said after that really was a lie, completely contradicted by, here we go, you guys ready those of you that are still in this personality cult? it's all on tape. you see, his confession is all on tape. everything, how deadly the disease was. how it wasn't the flu. i know some of you said, hey,

it's no different than -- your hero said it was five times worse than the flu. said it that impacted everybody, that it was bad, really bad, and thats it was airborne, and then he lied for the next six, seven, eight months. even lied during the presidential debate. how many times did he tell you starting in march that it was about to go? how many times? so he lied to you, what, dozens of times about this disease going away, and nthen finally i the end he just -- it's called the freudian slip in the business, he started talking about herd immunity, which of course he dismissed in march because it would kill 2, 3, 4, 5 million americans. so mika, the lies, they continued throughout the campaign, and there is the president, again, saying it's going to go away, and here we are at this stage after all the times he said it was going away,

all the times he said it was getting better, all the times he said we were rounding a corner. yeah, we have rounded a corner for the worst. joe biden was right along with ron klain when they wrote an op-ed back in january of this year saying the pandemic's coming. donald trump's not ready for it and he better listen to anthony fauci. they were right then, and they were right when joe biden said it was going to be a long, cold, dark winter, and of course republicans acted all freaked out about that. you know, republicans, you know what else they freaked out about for good reason? 9/11. and a republican president along with a democratic congress, along with an overwhelming number of american people retooled our entire foreign policy apparatus for the 21st

century. we are still in the mode that we converted to after about 3,000 people died on a beautiful, clear fall day in new york city in september of 2001. changed everything. now we have a 9/11 every day, and we have a president who still simply tweets conspiracy theories, and i must say many of his followers whose heart has been so hardened by the lies, whose minds have been so numb by the steady stream, the fire hose of falsehoods, the russian style propaganda, the nazi style

propaganda, where it's not just a big lie. it's a barrage of smaller lies that so numb followers from the truth that we can have a september 11th every day, and they just don't give a damn about it. while the president keeps tweeting conspiracy theories, hospitals keep filling up, and americans keep dying, mika. >> a barrage of small lies and broken norms. it's just made people so numb that they don't see what is happening, and what is happening is on the corner of the screen every morning when we do this show and it's the number of people dead on his watch because he handled this so profoundly -- in such a profoundly backward way. those comments we started the show with from president trump back in september take on a new

meaning this morning as yesterday we learned that a top trump appointed science adviser repeatedly urged administration health officials to adopt herd immunity as a top strategy for its covid-19 response. willie, one of many things that happened along the way during this pandemic that just boggle the mind and starting with the fact that the president didn't enforce the defense production act and get testing right. we still have terrible testing for this pandemic. >> yeah, we do, and that story you just touched on was a science adviser in hhs who suggested to the president and to his boss that we try herd immunity. herd immunity is letting the disease run its course literally allowing healthy people to get sick which the science adviser said in a memo to his boss. we ought to get everybody infected. we need more people infected. it's a quack theory that's been shot down by every doctor who's

come on this show and spoken publicly including dr. anthony fauci. he wasn't alone, scott atlas a favor of president trump he was for herd immunity as well. let the disease run its course. that was the strategy being discussed inside the highest reaches of our government. as you say now, we've set another record for daily deaths. mike pence said back in june in a wall street op-ed, there is no second wave. there will be no second wave. we're right in the moment doctors predicted we'd be in with a surge again in the fall and the winter here after that terrible early stretch in march and april. we're right back where they said we'd be. >> no second wave and you will remember donald trump said wasn't coming back in the fall. anthony fauci corrected him and said it was coming back in the fall. redfield said it was coming back in the fall. donald trump tried to force him to make, quote, corrections and apologize for what he said and

he refused to say it. mika, these scientists, these doctors, these people who have been trying to save lives since this pandemic hit, they knew it was going to be the worst pandemic since 1918, and they had to deal with a president that constantly was pressuring them to lie to the american people. >> you look at that graph, this was something that c of deaths could go down had we done simple things and had the president led on them. this wasn't some complicated scientific journey that the country had to -- this simple. this was masking. this was getting behind not just vaccine research but getting the ppe and the testing to the people so that we could contact trace and do it right. it was all done wroing, and thoe deaths belong to donald trump.

many who know much more than us about this would agree with that. along with joe, willie and me we have politics editor for y beass capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early" kasie hunt with us with news on covid relief. >> kasie, give us an update from the hill on covid relief. we've heard it was going to go forward. then mitch mcconnell told us earlier in the week it probably wasn't. now it looks actually like it's a fay ta complete, they are moving forward with the outline of a deal we talked about a couple of days ago. >> that's right, joe, it finally seems like we're going to get some good news here, and of course this news the most important for all of those americans set to lose jobless benefits literally the day after christmas. the sense on the hill that tthe done and the deadline, they finally ran out of deadlines. they kept moving the time line

on this because there was always another day when they could address it, and that's simply not the case anymore, and with, you know, as you've outlined the just terrible toll that the virus is taking right now, even as we're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with the vaccines, there was finally realization that they absolutely had to get something out the door. so we're hearing at this point that we could see the final package later on today. we're kind of in that situation where you could see it get delayed for a few hours, but i think that at this point everyone, both sides of the aisle, all the leadership are telegraphing the same thing, which is that they are going to get it done. it may take into the weekend, but some key pieces of this, joe, we expect this deal to include direct payments, stimulus checks to americans, likely in the $600 range. some of these details are still being absolutely finalized, also extended unemployment insurance benefits likely of about $300 a week more money for small businesses.

i think one key thing to watch here in the final days is money for restaurants. it's a huge part of the economy. it affects, you upply chain, aln down. it's not just the restaurants themselves. they say that they're being left out, that they need special relief here, and that has been one of the last sticking points we've been reporting. so something to keep an eye on here as they finally do close this deal. bottom line, it seems like there's some good news for the holidays. >> we'll take the good news, sam stein. some direct payments, unemployment insurance much needed, of course, after all these months. i guess the question for people watching is why did this take so long? it's not a massive deal like was initially proposed by nancy pelosi of $3 trillion, it will come in under a trillion. i know a holiday deadline tends to hasten things in congress so congress members can get out of town. why did the american people have to wait all these months and months to get this deal? >> that's a good question. i think it took this long

precisely because a huge part of congress felt like the current situation called for $3 trillion, called for a package of that magnitude, and you know, we got to a point where i guess enough people have decided that something is better than nothing at all. you know, prior to the election, there was some around a $1.8 trillion package. that was the deal that mnuchin and nancy pelosi were getting close to and it never happened. there's been a push for liability coverage for businesses that mitch mcconnell wants, and then object flip side, there's been a push for state and local aid, which the democrats want citing the fact that there's just not tax revenues to support public institutions, police, firehou s firehouses, schools, all of that, and so, you know, when you have those types of massive disagreements, congress really doesn't do much. and now when you're at a

deadline, of course, congress can act. i think the critics of this deal will point out when you go from $3 trillion to $1 trillion, you're going to find out with a lot of hurt on the back end. i guess in the end something is better than nothing. still ahead, why the texas lawsuit was the final straw for new hampshire's former republican chair. jennifer horn explains her decision to leave the gop. next on "morning joe." enough, crohn's. for adults with moderate to severe crohn's or ulcerative colitis, stelara® can provide relief, and is the only approved medication to reduce inflammation on and below the surface of the intestine in uc. you, getting on that flight? back off, uc. stelara® may increase your risk of infections, some serious, and cancer. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, sores, new skin growths, have had cancer, or if you need a vaccine. rpls, a rare,

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you can shop the latest phones, bring your own device, or trade in for extra savings. stop in or book an appointment to shop safely with peace of mind at your local xfinity store. joining us now is the cofounder of the lincoln project, jennifer horn. she is former chair of the new hampshire republican party, and this morning we can also call her a former republican overall. jennifer, thanks for coming on to share this with us. when you leave a party, usually it's because you don't have any

hope for it anymore, that it could ever come back to what it was. tell us about your decision. >> well, good morning, mika and joe and everybody, thank you for having me on this morning. and that's exactly the conclusion that i've come to, and to be frank, it's not because of donald trump. you know, donald trump is a weak and cowardly man. he could have been defeated, pushed back, silenced at any time if the leaders in the republican party wanted to do so. if they had the will to do so. it's because of exactly what you've been talking about this morning. it's because of what we've seen in the weeks since the election from so many elected republicans across this country who were willing to enlist in a coordinated, intentional effort to essentially overthrow democracy in the united states of america. it has become clear to me that the party of lincoln is no more,

and today's republican party cannot coexist with the ideal that we know america can be. >> you say this is the last straw for you, and you write in "usa today" i found myself fighting for what i thought were the principles of my party in the face of the ever deteriorating sfwdeteriorat deteriorating integrity of party representatives. they have fallen one by one at the feet of the most corrupt, destructive and unstable president in the history of our country. so what now to try and help put the country back on track, if you can't work in the party? >> well, for me it's always been about the principles, what i thought were the shared principles of the republican party. i'm going to continue to be a voice for conservative values,

conservative principles, for constitutional leadership, and most importantly for compromise, for bringing people, good people who care about the country, who want to solve the problem, to come together and be at the same table and have those conversations that have not taken place under republican majorities for a very long time. you know, there is a lot of disagreement out there, a lot of division out there, and the republican party has minded to their financial and political benefit. i find that to be shocking, you know, to be unacceptable, and i think that we need republicans who care about the values of our country, the principles of our country to step away from the party and become part of an effort, i guess, to start focusing on solving problems again. >> so jennifer, joe, it's not just the former head of the new hampshire republican party but she is a cofounder of the

lincoln project, and it's an incredible voice throughout this process and the lincoln project is 1-year-old today. it's the one-year anniversary of its founding. >> jennifer, i just briefly we ought to just give people a little bit of background. you and i have -- i guess it's been years, we have been talking to each other for years. >> don't start to age me, joe. >> yeah, exactly, and what we've talked about for years has not been about the democratic party, it's about how do we make the republican party stronger. and people don't understand you literally dedicated, like me, most of your adult life to trying to make the republican party stronger. so when you have two people that dedicated their adult lives to

trying to do that, one a guy that got elected to congress four times and the other a person who ran i think the most important state, if you're just talking about obviously the presidential contests, and both of us have left the party, and i'm sure five years ago we both would have said we would have been republicans until our dying day. >> well, joe, i've come to understand that today's republican party does not want to be stronger the way that you and i define strength. you know, just listening to rand paul and ron johnson in those clips that you played earlier, the lies, the misinformation, the corruption, the assaults on democracy, they do that, and they embrace it, and they stay with it because they benefit from the passion and the enthusiasm that doing so generates in the party base, the people who are willing to

believe the lies, who want to embrace the ugliness that has been behind the trump presidency. the republican party has clearly made a conscious decision that they want to build their future on those people, on the ugliness, on the dishonesty, on the corruption. that's -- we can't -- they don't want to be the republican party, joe, that you and i used to know. >> jennifer horn, thank you very much for being on this morning. and coming up, the overlooked hallmark of the trump administration and other autocracie autocracies, masha gesen has a new piece in "the new yorker" and that conversation is next on "morning joe." how about no

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whether intended or not, this hearing gives a platform to conspiracy theories and lies. and it's a destructive exercise that has no place in the united states senate. despite the title of today's hearing there were no widespread election irregularities that affected the final outcome. these claims are false, and giving them more oxygen is a grave threat to the future of our democracy.

>> our democracy pushed, tested, threatened, proved to be resilient, true and strong. the electoral college votes, which occurred today effect the fact that even in the face of a public health crisis unlike anything we've experienced in our life times, people voted. >> but just how resilient and strong is our democracy. the courts stayed true, local election officials held the line, but most republicans in congress did not. they were compliant with him. joining us now staff writer at the atlantic magazine and author of the book twilight of democracy, the seductive lure of authoritarianism ann apple balm and also with us staff writer at "the new yorker" and author of the book surviving autocracy, masha gessen and publisher of the news letter the dot inc., his book is entitled winners

take all. >> and my question is why is our background not as good as annen's. we'll get to that later. this is a follow-up to a conversation we had several months ago, your books are extraordinary. help me actually get my arms around what was happening in the united states of america, because it seemed so foreign, so bizarre. but let's -- i'd love to get a follow-up, a postmortem about where we are right now, ann, and let's start with you. >> frozen screen. >> ann is frozen. we're going to go to masha right now. masha, grade our democracy. did we survive autocracy? how are we doing right now? >> i think we're still in crisis. we're still living through what the political scientist calls an

autocratic attempt, an autocratic attempt is when an aspiring autocrat is -- can still be thrown out of office through electoral means. that does seem to be what is happening, but we're definitely not out of the woods, and when we do emerge from the woods, we really have to figure out how we got to where we were, you know. we -- it's easy and it's right to take joy and satisfaction in how the courts have held up and how local electoral institutions have held up, but it is too soon to say that that means that our institutions have held up because we have this institution called congress whose job it is, whose actual job it is to exercise checks on the president, and while this president is staging an autocratic attempt, the republicans in congress are enabling him. that is a huge institutional failu failure, and we can't just move

past it and say, great, the system worked. >> yeah, so ann, it's interesting when i travel across the world, is ann frozen again? we'd heard she was unfrozen. >> what masha said, republicans are enabling it. you could go further and say they're participating in it. they're holding hearings. they're pushing his conspiracy theories down the road wasting people's time during a raging pandemic. >> right. okay. so alex, i'm sorry, do we have ann? alex. all right, ann, we have you for the moment. how are we doing as a democracy in america? >> sorry, is that directed to me? >> yes, yes, i think we have you for a minute here so we'd love to hear. how would you grade the united

states institutions as democracy a week before christmas? >> i'd like to offer everybody cheerful news for christmas, and there is some cheerful news, which as masha just said we can be happy that some of the institutions have -- >> all right. christmas did come early, hanukkah came early, but we're going to go back to her when -- we're obviously having some problems there. annen, let's go to you and we'll see how your wi-fi connection is this morning. we had a wonderful conversation, it's one of my favorite conversations that we had on this show in a long time where you and i went at it about whether the institutions would hold up or not. i love when you came back a couple of weeks ago, it seems like we're both in the same place. some institutions held up really well, and yes, we should be grateful for that, but others like my former republican party, the executive branch, the senate

performed miserably when the stress test was applied. so how do you grade our performance over the past four years. >> joe, i think we received something as americans over the last four years that is a very special gift, which is we got an advance copy of our autopsy as a democratic republic. we're not actually dead yet as a democratic republic, but we got a preview copy exclusive preview of what done us in. and it is a long list because trump stress tested every institution, and so we know, as you say, the courts held up with some bright spots even some trump appointees holding a line, and in other ways did not. the police, federal troops, and local police were a disaster willing to do a lot of things at trump's beheading -- behest, sorry, i don't know why i said

that. republican state officials as you pointed out in the election did not tamper with election results in a way that i would have expected but congressional republicans essentially declared themselves part of this autocratic attempt and have shown zero courage including the ones who have shown like moments of tweet courage, never ultimately rejected this autocratic attempt. state department gutted, department of justice turned into a kind of personal vendetta machine, and i think what it -- the implication going forward is to understand the conditions in our country that made the autocratic attempt possible. there are deeper structural weaknesses in the experience, people's experience of the economy, an economy that most people correctly feel does not work for them. it works for somebody, but not anybody they know. the hijacking of politics by big money, by big business, for

profit disinformation engines like fox news and facebook, which are, i think, inconsistent long-term with democratic flourishing. the issue on both race and gender, very large numbers of white people and of men being uncomfortable with social progress, uncomfortable with the changed status for themselves in an egalitarian america, and we have totally failed to manage their identity transition to living nicely with others in a world of shared power, and the second thing i'd say is it's incredibly important at this moment, if we escape the autocratic attempt as masha said, to remember that there were people all along, all along warning us of this before trump. there were people, black people in the black lives matter movement were telling us that they were living in an autocracy before any of us were yeusing t autocracy. the folks drawn to bernie

sanders campaign were telling us that they were living in a kind of paul manafort kleptocracy before anybody knew who paul manafort was. it's important in this moment to listen to the sages, listen to the people who warned us. listen to the voices who actually tried to get us out of this, and frankly, to listen less to a lot of the corrupt institutions, the republican party, some of the encrusted old guard in academia, in writing elsewhere who actually didn't guard and keep us. >> so masha, what do we do moving forward? you wrote about -- of course we have our constitutional norms, but we have relied on the good faith of whoever the president is. you quoted barack obama after he met with donald trump saying what so many said, which is, hey, we all want the same thing for america. we all want what's best for

america. we all love america. we always give -- are given that presumption of the doubt to whomever the president of the united states is. obviously we can't do that -- we can't afford to ever do that again. so what reforms do we make post-trump? >> it's interesting that you have recalled that conversation from four years ago, right? because what was most remarkable about those -- that statement that president obama made was that there was no evidence for it. there was no evidence to suggest that donald trump would be a good faith actor. there was no evidence to suggest that he had america's best interests in mind. in fact, there's no evidence to suggest that we want the same thing, right? it was familiar empty political rhetoric, and this is what we can't afford. we need a reckoning with what happened, with how we got here. what happened to our self-understanding as americans?

what happened that allowed us to hand over politics to big money? what happened to -- you know, why we have a political duopoly and call it a democracy. we have to ask these really big questions and we have to break with a half century, at least a half century old american tradition. okay, let's move on ain the nam of healing. this healing is not going to happen on its own. it's going to require a lot of hard work and a real national conversation. >> all right, so ann, i think we have you again. i'll ask you the first question i asked, and then ask how people like you and me that grew up cold warriors on -- who saw ourselves as well, to speak for myself, conservative, how we handle the breaking up of the conservative coalition that is

now split into the traditional conservatives that were anticommunist and now this new right wing nationalism that's spread across europe and has taken root in america. >> it's a great question, i'm glad you put it that way because i think the most important thing we can do right now is look for allies, look for allies both in ds side our own country but also abroad. i genuinely believe that biden's plan to reinvigorate not just the western alliance but the democratic alliance, to pull democracies around the world into a bigger conversation will also help america because some of the problems that afflict us also afflict others, and there is both strength in working together and also there are solutions that are being worked on in other places. i mean, if you begin with one that's been talked about already this morning, which is the

internet, which is now a platform. it's now our public sphere, it's our main form of public conversation, and it is not infused with democratic values. it's dominated by a few companies who have their commercial interests at heart, it pressures and pushes disinformation. there are solutions to that. there could be solutions to the internet platform crisis. some are being worked on in other countries. europe is looking at regulation. taiwan is work on all kinds of alternatives and by working together with other countries i think we can find -- you know, we can find some solutions. i think that's a part of the answer. >> so what we have so far out of these conversations, ann applebaum is listening more to the warning signs, reaching out to allies and shore up our relationships which have been tattered a bit and deals that we've pulled out of and

obviously doing something about the tech companies and social media and the false advertising and disinformation that has just run rampant through these companies that have really taken over certain areas of the population with disinformation. but what about shoring up our democracy as it pertains to the constitution and the attorney general, how the attorney general perhaps is checked and balanced. masha and then annen, i'm wondering are there steps that need to be taken in terms of policy or process given what we've been through? >> we certainly have to think about -- and as anand said, trump has stressed us at every part of the democracy. we have really come to see what we entrust to norms. for example, the independence of the justice department, the

independence of the attorney general is a norm. it is not anywhere structurally built into our institutions. but, you know, bigger thing, i think, is to stop thinking about democracy as a set of institution institutions democracy is not a house that you build once and for all and go move in and live in. democracy is a process. it's a national conversation, and that's why it's so important to talk about media. it's so important to talk about how we, you know, how we have the conversation and how we enfranchise people and how people end up being left out of the political process whether it's because they're -- they're disenfranchised during elections or because they're left out of the political conversation because they're not heard in what's heard as money, right? democracy is a constant negotiation of how we live together in this can remember the. it is not a question of putting bricks back into the holes in the institutions.

>> anand, same question. >> i will answer it by echo everything masha said and answer it with -- i have an idea for joe biden, and i have an idea for the rest of us. i think a very powerful thing that this biden administration could do, which is probably not its inclination, but should be one anyway, is to criminally prosecute to the full extent of the law and not beyond that extent, this -- the crimes of these last four years because there were many, and it could be the financial crimes people did as their kind of side hustles of trumpism, but it could also be things relating to family separation and other crimes against, you know, humanity as well as the code of the united states. and i think that would be incredibly important in rebuilding people's sense, a sense that long predates trumpism that accountability is possible in america. there was no accountability for

iraq. there was no accountability for katrina. there was no accountability for 2008. none for covid. at some point people think people in power can do whatevs, and they're right. and biden can change that. the second thing for all of us, we don't -- to masha's point of democracy is a process. it's also therefore a culture. it's a way of relating to each other. it's a way of listening and a way of speaking, and i would say, and i've been writing about this recently for a future book, i'm as guilty of this as anybody. we have all become a version of ourselves in this era that is i think inconsistent with being citizens together. wi we don't listen. we don't allow our minds to be changed and we need, i think to restore democratic behavior if we're going to have a democratic sense of institutions. >> great, great conversation, thank you all very much for coming on. sorry about the technical

problems there. and up next, democrats have pushed for aid to help state and local governments get through the pandemic, but to get a relief deal, it seems they'll have to go without. house majority leader steny hoyer joins us with the latest on the negotiation next on "morning joe."

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i love a moment of point of personal privilege here and talk about the congressman who i was fortunate enough to replace, earl huddo, congressman earl huddo was a democrat who proudly served northwest florida from 1978 to 1994. he retired and i was fortunate enough, as i said, to follow

him, succeed him in congress, and it's interesting that, you know, i'm a country guy. i grew up in georgia and alabama and mississippi and northwest florida for the overwhelming part of my life, and i never knew anybody in politics, earl hutto was the first guy i ever met in politics, and it's very interesting that the first man i ever met in politics was one of the finalest individuals i ever met in politics with as much integrity, more integrity than anybody else i would meet in the next quarter century. he was so grounded. he was not only grounded in his love for his wife, but also his children. they were his life. that along with his faith in jesus christ, earl hutto was like george bailey in "it's a

wonderful life." he was the richest guy in town because of what he valued. and he was a guy, by the way, who was extremely powerful by washington standards. he was armed services committee. it's really interesting, though, when i went up to washington, earl was a democrat. i was, of course, a fire-breathing republican. small government conservative. and earl was a conservative democrat, but when we sat down, he was so generous with his time. he was so kind to this young kid who thought he knew a lot more than he actually knew. and he gave me the best advice i received. you know, i've been going around talking to a lot of republicans, and all these republicans would, you know, most of them would be older guys who would start tearing up and tell me not to lose my children. don't forget -- and then have

sad stories about how they became obsessed with their job. they became obsessed with power. they became obsessed with traveling. they said don't forget your children, and they all had very sad stories, and these powerful men would start tearing up. when i talked to congressman hutto, sat down in his office and he said, son, you got to make a choice. you can travel all over the world and do everything that they want you to do for your committee. travel around the country. campaign for everybody, raise money for everybody in your party. or you can raise your kids. you can be a good dad. you can be a good father. you can be a good husband. but you can't do it all. and i asked him, what did he do? he said well, he worked hard

every day, and then i got in my car, and i did the long commute home, and i made sure i was always there with my family. i was always there with my kids. and the children sent me something talking about earl. said, my dad had a successful political career, but i wouldn't say he was much of a politician. to him, politics was not a sport to be won or lost. he truly wanted to serve his constituents, all of them. i never heard him say a bad word about a colleague on either side of the aisle, even nancy pelosi with whom he had little in common. that might make it pretty tough to be elected as a skfconservat today. my mom was his trusted and equal partner in everything he did and, boy, she was. throughout his career, they treated his congressional staff like family, not people to use, to further his own ambitions. very few people can say they've never seen their father in a bad

mood. very few can say their dads preferred being at home rather than at social events that might advance their careers. this is laurie saying, when i was tenth grade, i got to attend president ronald reagan's state of the union. my dad walked with me to the gallery before heading to the house floor for the speech. i'll never forget him looking up to give me a wave as soon as he got there. it was a thrill for a poor kid from alabama to be in that setting. but no matter where he was, his mind was always on me and my mother and sister, as well as his own siblings. i'm not sure my dad could be elected today with the money and intense polarization that currently characterizes politics, but we've never needed folks like him more than we do now. and to that, i say, amen and amen. our thoughts and prayers are

with nancy and the entire hutto family. i want to bring in steny hoyer right now. talking about, of course, earl hutto, a man you served with. what a great man. what a fundamentally decent human being. we need a lot more earl huttos in congress right now. >> you said amen to what his children said. i'd say amen to what you soed said and what they said. he was a man of real character and charity for all and a real work ethic that helped his state, his district and his country. and he is a person, as you say, we can replicate many times over and be advantaged in our country and in the congress. >> you know, he always talked about bipartisanship. he always talked about working across the aisle. right now, steny, it looks like there's some people in the senate and looks like you and

some other people are trying to figure out how to get a deal to get relief to millions and millions of americans who are suffering. tell us about it. >> well, you're absolutely right. we need to get to an agreement. i'm hopeful and i talked to the speaker this morning. she thinks we're making real progress. i hope in the very few hours that remain, before we're going to shut the government down if we don't act on friday at midnight, that we will get a deal. that we will have an agreement between the parties and between the members, between the leadership and between the appropriations committee. and bring legislation forward that will help those millions and millions of people. 12 million unemployed. millions of people who can't put food on their table. millions of small businesses are worried about going out of business permanently. those are all efforts that we have to respond to and respond to quickly. and we should have done it a long time ago. but very frankly, we passed four

bills relatively quickly at the beginning of this crisis when the pandemic was raging then and subsided and is now raging again. we passed four major pieces of legislation in a bipartisan fashion. one, the c.a.r.e.s. act, which was the largest, over $2 trillion, was passed in the house on a voice vote. since then we passed a h.e.r.o.e.s. bill may 15th, october 1st, a slimmed down version of that which responded to all the crises you've talked about and i've talked about and are so prevalent in our country we need to respond to, and we haven't acted. it's long past the time we need to act. hopefully we'll get to an agreement today. put it on the floor, pass it and give some relief in this crisis that our families, our businesses, our individuals are facing. so let's hope we can get there. >> we just got the news across the wires that 885,000 more

americans filed for unemployment last week. that's higher than expected. those numbers are going in the wrong direction now again. and you said it. this is long overdue. we could have had this exact conversation six, seven months ago. the need was there. in your analysis, what took so long? >> we passed a bill on may 15th, h.e.r.o.e.s. 1 we called it. chairman powell of the federal reserve said it was an appropriate amount and we could have done more because of the hemorrhaging of the economy and the necessity to save jobs, to save businesses, to save lives. and we didn't pass that. the senate didn't take it up. we urged them to take it up. when we left on july 26th for the august break, frankly, a lot of the unemployment supplemental payments expired. people have been in crisis. i've been urging, nancy has been

urging, others have been urging the speaker that we act. we wanted to give state and local governments assistance because many of them are having an extraordinarily difficult time because it's falling revenue. let me tell you who is really at risk. that is the small towns, the municipalities and the cities who are having the crisis at their front door. and they are trying to respond. they're trying to deliver help through their hospitals, through other organs of their government to help people at this time of crisis. we need to pass, for instance, nutritional program. that's one of the things i understand is holding us up at this point in time. we ought to move on that. we see food lines of people who never, ever in their lives expected to have to go to a food kitchen to support their family. it is a crisis. it say moral imperative that we act. >> house majority leader steny

hoyer, thank you very much. and as we close the show this morning, time now for final thoughts. a lot going on today. mike barnicle, start with you, then willie grab it. >> mika, i've been struck listening to especially the last 20 minutes, joe talking about the former congressman who preceded him, listening to steny hoyer. i'm struck by the indifference we've witnessed in both the house and senate towards the plight of millions of americans who are struggling with eviction, with joblessness, with hunger. and there seems to be just an indifference that really stunned me, and it's certainly a contrast to, joe, what you were talking about when you served as recently as the early mid-'90s. it seemed different there. it seemed congress and the senate was more in touch with the needs of people than we are in this age of instant communication. it's incredible.

>> joe, there are two tracks as we know to this crisis, and they are linked. one is, of course, the public health crisis. we had a record number of deaths from coronavirus yesterday and this morning, 885,000 more people in this country filed for unemployment. that comes after this week there was a study out that shows 8 million people fell into poverty in this country just since june. the poverty rate in america is now over 11%. that's where we are in public health. it's where we are in people's lives. >> and that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is thursday, december 17th. let's get smarter. at this very moment, an fda advisory committee is kicking off a day-long meeting to look at moderna's covid vaccine which is going to result in emergency approval of that very vaccine as early as tomorrow. we'll be watching it all morning long and bring y