if it's thursday, a second dose of hope amid this raging pandemic. fda advisers are meeting right now to greenlight moderna's covid vaccine the day after we just saw the deadliest day of the pandemic yet. plus, lawmakers are racing to finish work on a $900 billion covid relief package as jobless claims in this country rise again. but president trump, he's focused on trying to block funding for the military. no acknowledgment of what's happening with covid. and new reporting on what happened inside the administration's pandemic response. we'll speak with the house's top pandemic investigator on what his committee has just learned. we'll also speak with one of the

top covid task force officials. welcome to thursday. it is "meet the press daily." i'm chuck todd. congress created an independent, bipartisan commission to definitively figure out what happened and how to prevent it from happening again. and nearly 3,000 americans died on september 11th. more than 308,000 people have now died from covid in this country. the cdc director predicted over the nemonth, at least, we'll se 9/11 levels of fatalities every single day. nearly 3,300 deaths were reported from covid yesterday alone. that was the single deadliest day of this pandemic. if the death toll alone doesn't highlight how badly we need a full accounting of what happened, there's this.

house investigators on a subcommittee specifically devoted to the pandemic disclosed they discovered communications within hhs showing that one of the president's top science advisers specifically said of low risk groups that, quote, we want them infected. that was basically a herd immunity strategy focused on protecting only the most vulnerable. this private communication came, of course, as the president was publicly downplaying the health risk of covid while contradicting public health experts and pushing for states to fully reopen. bottom line is the white house was publicly vowing to limit the spread of the virus, there were obvious efforts all as trump was trying to avoid shutting down the economy because he thought it would help his re-election effort. we'll speak with the chairman of the house's subcommittee jim clyburn in a moment. getting to the depths of the political interference is obviously of major importance on that issue. the cdc's former chief of staff

and his top deputy are opening up about how the agency was sidelined in part by political allies of the president. in an interview with "the new york times," they said, quote, everyone wants to describe the day that the light switch flipped and the cdc was sidelined. it didn't happen that way. it was more of like a hand grasping something. and it slowly closes. closes and closes until you realize that, middle of the summer, it has a complete grasp on everything at the cdc. folks, the president's response alone to this pandemic will be remembered as one of the biggest failures of government leadership in our nation's history. while the speed of the vaccine is rightfully being recognized as a medical marvel there have nonetheless been cascading failures across our government and from our elected leaders. it's resulted in more deaths so far than the number of americans who died in the battle -- in battle during world war ii. the public deserves a full and

independent accounting of what happened. we've had plenty of commissions that do this and do this well. joining me now outside of the white house is my nbc news colleague carol lee. i want to start with these -- in some ways, you could call them damning disclosures out of both hhs and what we've learned from the staffers at the cdc, but in some ways, they just confirmed what we were all watching with our own eyes. which was a president using -- trying to downplay the severity of this virus whatever chance he got. >> yeah, that's exactly right, chuck. and also the president on one hand saying they weren't pushing for this idea of herd immunity and then on the other hand, obviously, this was something that was being discussed, not just in -- with the president's controversial health adviser scott atlas, once he joined the white house. but really a lot earlier than that. this july 4th email that's

quoted here talks about the need to not infect everybody. infants, young people, keep colleges open and what we heard from the president publicly while there were some denials that was actually formulating any sort of policy or driving any policy decisions, he said in september that herd immunity was something that absent a vaccine that the virus would go away if we allowed that to essentially take place. >> carol, let's -- carol, in fact, before you finish, i want to play those september comments. i think people need to hear this from the president's mouth again. he was advocating herd immunity. listen. >> it would go away without the vaccine, george. but it's going to go away a lot faster with it. >> go away without the vaccine? >> sure. over a period of time, sure. with time it goes away. >> and many deaths. >> and you'll develop like a herd mentality. it's going to be herd developed and that's going to happen. that will all happen.

>> now in fairness, it's possible the president didn't quite understand what phrase to use. he used herd mentality. heard developed. but it was clear he was talking about herd immunity. t. was. it was clear that's what he meant and that he said that that is what would happen if you didn't have a vaccine, that it would move -- if you allowed these people who are not high risk, young people, i mean, all the way down to infants, according to these emails, that that would somehow get rid of this virus eventually. now that is not something that any of the president's top health advisers like dr. fauci, dr. birx and others, and even the hhs have said that wasn't something that was part of their policy. but that just gives you a sense of how the president is really, since this pandemic started, was grasping at ways to find ways for it to go away and to convey that message. and without a vaccine, which is what he's leaning into now, at

the time there was this idea of herd immunity which you heard him there leaning into. >> very quickly, he apparently said he's going to veto the defense bill. is he vetoing this expecting his veto to get overridden or is he truly hoping that somehow he's going to get -- be able to keep the confederate generals on -- he -- that's his reason to do it. that and the section 230 termination. there's no interest in renegotiating this. what does he expect to come from this veto? >> well, it's -- he's digging in on this threat. and also, i would add a third thing. he's now saying this benefits china. there are provisions that strengthen the u.s. against china. even these disagreeing with the president. the real question here that we're told the president is expected to just straight up veto this in the regular way, not do a pocket veto which could create some delays and other complications. the real question is whether

there's enough -- one thing to vote for something. another thing to vote against the president on something and will enough republicans stay on board to override his veto. but this is a pay raise for troops. this is education, funding for kids of special needs who are families of people serving in the military. so it would be a really big deal if he did veto this. >> it would. and it is worth noting, carol, that i've noticed the president and a lot of his allies now just throw china into every answer. there's no fact that backs it up now, but they've decided it's a talking point. so a word of warning to viewers, you may hear things about china having to do with things that have nothing to do with china like this. joining me now is south carolina democratic congressman jim clyburn, the number three democrat in the house, chairman of the select subcommit on the coronavirus crisis. and congressman, that's where i want to begin. right now you are doing some

oversight. you are leading the oversight on what's happening with government funds and things like this. but you're also discovering a lot of troubling things. we've got -- and that's what came out of your committee, this herd immunity attempt email. we've also got what we've learned from the cdc staffers who spoke with "the new york times." do you believe we need a 9/11-style commission, warren commission, great crises have gotten us important commissions to make sure we don't make the same mistakes again. do we need this? >> we may. and i think that's something the new administration may need to take a look at. my committee, however, is to provide oversight. when congress makes the expenditures, as they've done here, my select committee is to take a hard look at how the money is being spent to make sure that it's being done

efficiently, effectively and equitably. that's what we're doing. and it was in the course of carrying out these responsibilities is when we saw these -- or heard the testimonies and now seen some documents that indicate that what the white house was saying was different from what was going on. and we have found that to be the case in other instances as well. they were sending information out to state governments saying one thing while at the national level, they were saying just the opposite. that's the way this administration has operated. and so what we're doing in the select committee is having the public take a look-see at what this administration is doing and hopefully we'll do what we can to correct it. >> given what you're learning already, does it make you feel as if -- well, look at what i'm

learning, what we're learning just on focusing on how they're handling congressionally allocated money. does this tell you there's a lot more that you think we don't know? >> well, that's what i think. and that's why we want to have these documents. and they have not been sharing the documents with us. they finally unloaded a lot of stuff to us. a lot of it we asked for, but they give us a lot of stuff we did not ask for. and they did not give us some things that we asked for. and so we are going to pursue our duties and responsibilities and maybe we'll find out some things that we just have a gut feeling may be there. but i do not want to get out in front of the facts. >> so you've been getting a lot of this information lately. how much of this has been almost all post election? do you feel as if suddenly post

election you're getting more cooperation? >> i think so. it's certainly -- whether or not that was the intent, that's exactly what's happened. we've gotten this information since the election, though much of it we were asking for prior to. >> the -- how much of the information you're getting stonewalled on do you think you'll have to wait until january 20th to get, or are you concerned you have to issue subpoenas now because are you concerned that documents might disappear? >> well, i would hope that documents would not disappear because that would take us into another kind of investigation that goes beyond the scope of the committee. we have not made the decision finally by staff is plowing through these documents now trying to determine whether or not they are sufficient. if they are sufficient, then we

will say so. and if they aren't, we will say so, and it may lead to a subpoena. >> the one -- the most troubling aspect about what we learned from "the new york times" and the cdc staffers is that everything that was -- looked like was happening indeed was happening, which is, there was, and let me pull one excerpt. the white house insisted on reviewing and often softening the cdc's guidance documents. the most prominent public expression of its latest research and scientific consensus on the spread of the virus. the documents were vetted not only by the white house's coronavirus task force by what felt to the agencies' employees like an endless loop of political appointees across washington. we know the cdc ended up getting politicized in some way, either in how their stuff was handled or how they were micromanaged. how do you restore the cdc's good name? >> that's going to be tough.

really going to be tough. when it comes to people's health, they do not want that to be played with politically. and that's what's going on here. the decisions are being made outside of the scientific world by people with no expertise. some of them not even with the slight credentials. we have a career scientist telling us that she was ordered to delete certain things in a memorand memorandum. these kind of things we are very serious about. we have paul alexander calling for herd immunity when the white house was saying that was not taking place. we want them infected. look at these people.

they must not have children or friends or relatives or acquaintan acquaintances. why would you just want to infect people when you can take steps like masking, social distancing and not having superspreading events and prevent the stuff from happening. it seems almost as if they were trying to infect everybody that came around them and creating these superspreaders. this is the kind of mentality that's been taking place in the white house for some time now, and the american people finally wised up on november the 3rd and i hope they will continue to stay focused on this. >> very quickly, the defense bill veto that the president is promising, what -- how quickly will there be an attempt to override that veto in the house, sir? >> well, we would attempt to do so right away in the house. i say attempt to do so because a

lot of people who voted for this bill now are saying that they may vote to sustain a presidential veto. it's not surprising to me that these people want to defund the department of defense. and that's effectively what they'd be doing here is du defunding the defense department. >> it's an interesting phrase you picked there, congressman. and i think it was on purpose. i see what you're doing there. we shall see what happens. congressman clyburn, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. >> thank you. i thought you would get that. >> i sure did. still ahead -- i'll ask a key member of the white house coronavirus task force about what went wrong and what went right? admiral brett giroir will be here. plus, the moderna vaccine is one step away from approval. and some hospitals are completely out of icu beds.

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welcome back. the u.s. has just seen its sing single worst day in this pandemic and is pushing the hospital to the breaking point. icu units at hundreds of major hospitals across the country are full according to recent hhs data. hospitalizations are still at record levels. the fda's vaccine committee is back together today to discuss whether to recommend an emergency authorization for the moderna covid vaccine exactly a week after they did recommend the authorization for the pfizer vaccine. no matter how fast each new vaccine is approved and distributed, it will not outpace or undo the cases, deaths and hospitalizations rates ripping through the country at a record-breaking pace. for the first few weeks or even months, it might not even make a dent. in many of the same hospitals where health care workers are receiving the same vaccines, capacity is already stretched to the limit. steve patterson is in los angeles for us where hospitals

are in crisis. steve, i think that you see it with the governor. you see it with health care workers. they are running out of ways to scream out loud at the public about this dire situation. >> and yet they have to keep doing it because people need to hear this message. the governor said something interesting. he's putting it like this. the vaccine is out there, yes. it is the light at the end of the tunnel that everybody has wanted to see since the beginning of this pandemic but it is still so far off that there is months worth of darkness before we're able to feel it especially here in california. we're at about 30,000 cases every single day. hospitals are running out of bed space. icus almost at capacity in several counties across the state. ambulances are now on diversion. they're being snent away from certain hospitals because the ers are so packed. nurses are complaining about the fact that ratios are so skewed

because there's too many patients for each icu nurse. that's a real problem here in l.a. county where every hour the average is that two people will die of covid. there's about 1 in every 80 residents that has the virus. meanwhile, again, nurses, health care workers are absolutely slammed and they say it is not sustainable if this continues. here's what several doctors are saying about the crisis and looking forward, if this behavior doesn't change. listen to this. >> los angeles county has not been in this situation to this point in the pandemic before. but the worst is still before us. >> over the next few weeks if the numbers continue to increase the way they have, i am afraid that we may run out of capacity within our hospitals, and the level of care that every resident in los angeles county deserves may be threatened just by the fact we're overwhelmed by those numbers. >> chuck, on that message about

health officials running out of things to say, they're also worried about the coming holiday season because we're still paying for the decisions that people made over the thanksgiving holiday. they're now worried that further behavior will only deepen this crisis before we get to any feasible stage in this vaccine that can be distributed to enough people to really affect what's going on. chuck? >> yeah, and to hear about the field hospitals, where are we going to get the staff in order to deal with these field hospitals as well? steve patterson on the ground in l.a. steve, thanks very much. i want to move the focus to the vaccine. joining us is vaccine expert dr. peter hotez, the dean of the national school of tropical medicine at baylor college of medicine. he was vaccinated earlier this week. good to be visiting with you. let's start with what the fda is doing now with the moderna vaccine. do you expect the authorization to be much different than what we saw last week for the pfizer vaccine? >> no, i think it will be more

or less the same process, although i'm hoping this time it will be a more closer to a unanimous vote. it was 17-4 last time because there was a bit of confusion about what to do about the 16 and 17-year-olds. but i think for this moderna vaccine, it's 18 and older. it's more straightforward. so i'm hoping it's a unanimous vote just to give that level -- that really high level of endorsement. both vaccines are effective. both vaccines are safe. and we really urgently need them. so the idea is to get 6 million doses of the moderna vaccine out as soon as possible. and slowly we'll have additional vaccines come on board. we'll have the two viruses, the j&j, the oxford, the novavax, maybe our vaccine. some of that will have a small fleet of vaccines by the second quarter of thnext year. that would be the goal because we're going to need that to

vaccinate the population. >> is there going to be a point where we decide which vaccine is best and we will put all of our eggs in that and we will put production into that and supply that, or do you think over the next couple of years, as we manage, as we try to wind down this pandemic and get the world inoculated that we'll continue to have multiple vaccines because maybe different vaccines make sense for different communities. >> yeah, i mean, one of the things that's becoming clear is the "operation warp speed" program confirmed something we've known for about a decade which is the spike protein of the -- of coronavirus is in this case, the sars 2 coronavirus is a soft target and pretty much everything works. so whether you use an mrna approach or adenoid virus approach, they all look like they're going to give high levels of protective immunity. so whether or not some drop out will likely be based on, one, durability of protection. that is maybe some of the

vaccines, the protection only lasts a few months whereas others years. and that's important information. and also if there's any other long-term safety issues that show up when you're vaccinating millions of people, stuff that didn't show up with the 40,000 or 60,000-person clinical trials. for now we'll have that full portfolio of vaccines in play. >> you sound like you're fine. i take it you haven't had any side effects from the vaccine. there was the alaska nurse that had a bad allergic reaction. do you have an idea of -- we've seen a handful of folks have had allergic reactions. do you have a sense of what triggers it? >> well, we know that for just about every vaccine, the risk of serious allergy is there, but it's very low. i think for the influenza and the hpv vaccines for cervical cancer and other cancers, it's 1 to 2 per million.

for the mmr, 3 to 4 per million. it's extremely rare. but they do happen. we're trying to understand what the basis is. there's some chatter in back and forth phone calls going on about polyethylene glycol in the vaccine because there are rare allergies. but this has to be investigated. and the good news, that's exactly what will happen. people will start really looking into this in detail. right now we don't know, but it's still going to be a rare event. >> very quickly, the fda has authorized the first over-the-counter at-home covid test. is this a case of better late than never, and how important could this be in getting and bridging us to the vaccine? >> well, there's a few things you want tests to do. in this case, the over-the-counter one is going to be great, if it's accurate in terms of both specificity and

sensitivity because we're still having -- inviting people over to our homes, despite all of the warnings not to and at least testing will give you some hedge. it's not completely risk-free, but it's certainly something better. i just wish we could have been in this place at a much earlier time point. there's still a high barrier to getting tested. people are still hearing about having to wait two hours in line to get the test and we just should never have been in this position at this late a date. so the fact we're still struggling over diagnostic testing, still struggling over masks is just unacceptable. >> yeah, and this is why i think some people are hoping that vaccine distribution goes a lot smoother than testing distribution did. that's for sure. dr. peter hotez, from baylor, always a pleasure to get your expertise on the air. thank you. >> good to see you again, chuck. still ahead -- police are investigating threats of

violence against another public official over covid restrictions. the pushback against a mask mandate pushed a kansas mayor to resign. she joins us next. we pray families grow strong. we pray kids don't go hungry. we pray every head has a roof over it. we pray those struggling with addiction overcome it. and those who've lost jobs can keep the lights on. we pray that all those who are hurting can find relief. we pray for more love. more hope. now is the time to put hands and feet to our prayers. with more people facing poverty, our community needs our help more than ever. ♪

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welcome back. we've got another disturbing sign of the hyperpartisan nature of covid restrictions this week. you'll remember that federal agents arrested several militia members they say were plotting to kidnap michigan's governor over restrictions she imposed.

virginia governor ralph northam was also a target of plat alleged plot. the mayor of one kansas town said her efforts by backing a mask mandate led to threat of her own life. she resigned after receiving threats for backing a mask mandate. she said left has dealt out many challenges in our world that have caused many people to act inappropriately, but i do not feel safe in this position anymore and i'm hopeful in removing myself, this anger, accusations and abuse will not fall on anyone else and will calm down. well, joyce warshaw, the now former mayor, joins me now. thanks for coming on. it's a tough decision to make. to resign in the face of these threats, and i'm sure -- i'm curious, are you still of mixed emotions about it? >> you know, i have no regrets

of my vote to -- for the mask mandate. i love dodge city. it's a wonderful, wonderful community, but in the way the world is now, particularly across our nation with so much hate and divisiveness, i just felt, and my family felt it was best for me to step down. >> are you concerned that your decision to resign gives the -- gives those who are essentially terrorizing you a playbook at how to push out -- push things away that they don't like? >> you know, at first i worried about that, todd, and then i've started receiving so many support communications and love and all of that, and i thought, you know, maybe -- maybe good will rise over evil because i truly believe, especially in my

community that there are a lot more good people and caring people than there are those that are threatening and aggressive and just blatantly mean. >> now, we should point out that the commissioners passed this mandate 4-1. you were singled out. you were targeted. how have the -- how has the commission held up since you resigned? >> i think they're doing fine. they're four very, very strong men and pillars of the community. and i feel like they're going to do fine. >> ford county opted out of the governor's mask mandate. she ordered it on november 18th. was that where things changed? >> yes, pretty much because it fell upon our shoulders as a

city, as a city commissioner because the -- our county commissioners chose not to support the mask mandate and since we're the largest entity in our county, it fell upon our shoulders. and we had to make a decision of how to best serve our community. >> do you feel as if the buck got passed down to you in that sense? >> yes, i do. i really do. i am sorry that the governor could not enforce her mask mandate across the state because i think that's where we're at right now is, we need to take care of society as a whole. >> covid has hit your family pretty hard. you had an aunt that died from it. you've had a daughter that battled it. >> yes. >> what message do you want to send folks in smalltown america that are having these arguments

right now? >> you know, i just feel like, yes, i had family members that dealt with it, and it's heart wrenching to not be able to be there for those family members. and i would say to people, you know, let go and let your passion take over and the care of one another. and, you know, simple steps like a mask. don't get into large gatherings. and to keep your social distance. that's very little to ask of us right now during this pandemic, to avoid any other sicknesses and particularly any more deaths. >> would you recommend public service to younger folks these days, given elective office, given what happened to you? >> absolutely. absolutely. that's what we need. we need for our younger generation to step up to the plate and, you know, there's

lots of rewards. i love what i was able to give back to the city of dodge city. i still support the mask mandate. i just think we are in a turmoil right now in our country, and it has created behaviors that are really not acceptable. >> well, look, one thing that happened is you made your resignation and it brought some more attention to this issue. brought more attention to the need for the mask mandate, so perhaps you made the right call here. joyce warshaw, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. >> thank you for having me. still ahead -- i'll speak to a member of the white house coronavirus task force, admiral brett giroir. first, the latest in the georgia runoffs. vice president pence rallies for republicans. vice president -- sorry, president-elect biden lends his voice to the democrats. [ engine rumbling ]

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welcome back. as of this morning, more than 900,000 ballots have already been cast in early voting in the georgia runoffs. they'll determine control of the senate and have a profound effect on what the first two years of the biden presidency looks like. both parties are pulling out every weapon they have to get voters to the polls. vice president mike pence is in georgia holding a pair of rallies in columbus and macon today to boost candidates loeffler and perdue. and ossoff and warnock are getting help from president-elect joe biden. with me from warner robbins, georgia, is priscilla thompson. a couple of questions here, what we're seeing in early vote, how does it compare to the overall general election pre-november? >> well, chuck, it's a little bit down from where it was in the general election but that is to be expected during a runoff. i've spoken with the campaigns

and they have expressed that's about what they expect bud one of the interesting things to point out, the "atlanta journal constitution" did an analysis of the new voters that registered between the general election and now. around 75,000 new voters on the rolls. and the majority of those voters are young voters. and we know that young voters tend to skew more towards democratic candidates so that is something very interesting to watch here, especially in a state that joe biden won by around 12,000 votes. so many of the democrats i've spoken to here today, and we're in a red county, have said that they feel like they can be that difference in this race because of how close the margin was in the presidential. >> we've seen that it does seem as if the republicans are targeting everywhere but the atlanta area. mike pence again coming to georgia, but skipping over anywhere atlanta. at this point, is that the -- are the -- kelly loeffler lives

in buckhead, i think, but at this point, should we expect not to see those two campaign in the atlanta area at this point? >> i think it is pretty unlikely that we'll see them campaigning there. i think the strategy is to sort of run up the numbers in a lot of these rural counties. and one thing that's interesting about his trip here today is that vice president pence was in columbus earlier. he's on his way to macon. two counties that democrats won, but surrounding those counties are a ton of red areas. and so those are the types of voters they're hoping to pull in to those rallies. we're about 7 1/2 miles from where the macon rally will be held, and as i mentioned, this is an area where donald trump and republicans won across the board in november. >> priscilla thompson on the ground covering the republican side of things today but on the ground in the georgia runoff. thank you. up next -- inside the trump administration's pandemic response. admiral brett giroir, white house testing czar and key

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the past days and weeks it comes as the virus continues to rage out of control and amid new allegations of political interference and manipulation in the government's handling of this pandemic. i want to turn to admiral brett giroir, the white house testing czar, member of the coronavirus task force and the assistant secretary of health at the department of health and human services. admiral, it's good to see you. thank you. >> yeah, thanks for having me on. >> let me start with this sort of dichotomy we're living in now. we see how this ends, and we are at the worst period of this pandemic yet. how bad are the next six weeks going to be as these vaccines start rolling out? i feel as if a lot of people are going to die before they get this vaccine. is there any hope of preventing this? >> so thank you, chuck. it's very important for you to point out, we are sort of in a strange duality. we see the end of the pandemic

in sight as tens of millions of people get immunized but we're at a critical and dangerous part of the pandemic right now. what happens over the next six weeks really depends a lot on what we as individuals do. overall in the country, the mortality rate is mortality is horrific and we're seeing a flattening of the cases. and many have reversed the trend and they're decreasing in deaths. we're very concerned about the coast. the number of cases continue to rise with hospitalizations canceling out the good news in the midwest. you know the answer. got to area a mask in public. got to physically distance. these do work, but we have to be vigilant and disciplined, or you're right we'll see tens of thousands of americans die before the vaccine provides

relief. >> the target early on is frontline health care workers and those most vulnerable. you look and it is 80% to 90% of the deaths that are 65 plus. at what point in our vaccine schedule are we at a point that enough of our population is inoculated. >> you know the process, there will be advisories coming from the cdc, particularly dr. redfield. i'm very strongly posupportive individuals over 65 based on chronic medical conditions. this is driving critical

infrastructure. we have to relieve the burden on our hospitals right now and that means we go with those most vulnerable. there may be critical infrastructure thrown in there, of course. the first wave is easy. health care workers and the long-term care facility. the last wave is easy. in the mid dle is where we need some discussion. we need to do our elderly and chronically ill very early in the next wave. >> one of your titles is assistant secretary of health at hhs. you're probably aware of the news of the last couple days of what we learned of some particular e-mails that dr. paul alexander sent. i want to put up a few. he was pushing for herd immunity. it only comes after the nonhigh-risk groups expose

themselves to the virus. infan infants, kids, teens, young people, young adults, middle age with no conditions, we want them infected. was this policy, was the policy as far as you are aware of? >> no, it absolutely wasn't. we want to achieve them by vaccination. achieving them by letting the disease go rampant would have killed two million americans plus. it is impossible to shelter the vulnerable when you have widespread community tran transmission. he was a tuck nick kal advisor to the public affairs people. a smart guy, well educated, but this public health opinion was wrong and it did not influence my policy or anything at the task force level to my knowledge. >> do you understand why trust

in the cdc, trust in some government officials, this was mixed messaging. you just definitively said this could influence me, but this guy worked at hhs so he was influencing someone. >> so i understand and we do need to restore trust in the institutions. you know there was a lot of discussion at high levels. i'm going to tell you from what i know he was not a player in this at all. he was a technical advisor. he was not at the level to influence myself, the secretary, or anyone else. and you know there are prominent people to talk about that and it did not influence our policy. the only way to safely have herd

immunity is vaccination. it is a basic public health pillar of what we do. if you could in a theoretical world shelter the vulnerable it would still be concerning. even young people get tick and die, but they are in our community, they're our parents, they're our parents, it could have been a catastrophe of unbelievable proportions if that would have been our policy. >> we saw a study, i saw a study about the counties that encompass large college towns and while yes, they didn't have kids dieing, the death rate in general in those counties went up. i also have to ask you this in this way, are you confident it hooks like there was plenty of interference when it came to the guidelines of the cdc.

how confident can we be that they are scientific and not messaging as we learned today in the new york times. >> are you talking about vaccines or overall in general? >> i'm talking about the snafers that talked about messaging that would win out over the scientists when it came down to the cdc guidelines in general. >> i feel very kft right now where we are in general. guidances from the cdc, especially related to vaccines and now more testing bias. but my interest has always been in public health. i assure people that the

guidances are based in the best evidence and science. we try to be as transparent as possible. with vaccines it has been widely transparent. data being put on the internet in two days before the committee. these are safe and effective. all americans need to get them when the is their point in line, and i feel good about the griens we're at right now. we know how to flatten the conservative. we do. >> very quickly, you are making a distinction between guidelines on the vaccines and guidelines from six months ago? >> i'm really not, i'm not making that distinction, i want to be clear because vaccination is sort of the existential issue of our time. we need people to be confident of the vaccines and i want to be absolutely certain that people understand that that is true.

and i feel good about the process. not everybody always agreed with all of the guidelines. we didn't have the trabl data. where we are right now we learned more about the virus. we don't know that people that were asymptomatic could spread it. i feel very good about our knowledge of the virus and where we are. >> i have to leave it there, i'm running short on time. thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. and my apologies to you katy tur, msnbc's coverage will continue after this break. e will continue after this break. when our daughter and her kids moved in with us... our bargain detergent couldn't keep up. turns out it's mostly water. so, we switched back to tide. one wash, stains are gone. daughter: slurping

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good afternoon, i'm katy tur, it is 11:00 out west, 2:00 p.m. in the east. right now an fda advisory group is deciding if they will