experts warn hackers now may have the ability to control the systems that power many part of our government, our economy, and of course, that means national security. we're going to speak both with a top cyber expert who advised the obama white house and pahruresi trump's former national security adviser, john bolton. plus, vice president pence and speaker pelosi get the pfizer vaccine. the fda is about to authorize emergency use of moderna's vaccine. but the virus is running rampant and states say they're not getting the number of vaccine doses they've been promised by the government. and where's the relief? speaker pelosi is scheduled to hold her weekly press conference an hour from now amid reports that president trump nearly derailed talks on capitol hill, as lawmakers continue to scramble to finish a $900 billion relief deal. welcome to friday.

it is "meet the press daily" and i am chuck todd. we're following a number of developments right now about the pandemic, on capitol hill, and on the supreme court. and we're also following news that the president is about tosh to issue a few pardons. we begin with what could be the biggest hack of the u.s. government ever. the list of government agencies and private companies reportedly breached by what is suspected to be a russian state hack is astounding, alarming, and, sadly, it's growing. the agency tasked with securing our country's cyber infrastructure is calling the hack, quote, a grave risk to federal agencies, to state governments, and for some private sector companies. we're going to try to get a definition of what "grave risk" means in a moment. they are also bluntly warning that we do not know the full extent of what was compromised, nor how it was compromised. let me repeat. we've been attacked and we don't know how they did it, we don't know what they took, and we don't know if they're still here.

to borrow a rumsfeldian turn of phrase, we don't know what we don't know. but what we do know is really, really bad. the department of energy confirmed it was hacked. they oversee our nuclear arsenal. but the agency says that so far, mission essential national security functions haven't been impacted. microsoft says that this attack is actually ongoing and that they've identified 40 customers who have been compromised and more are expected to be figure g ing it out soon. folks, we have to approach this folk by assuming that the russian government has gained control of all of the networks that it has penetrated, because that is what we've been told by former cybersecurity experts who have advised republican and democratic presidents. and as i mentioned at the very top of this show, this has breached the infrastructure powering our government, our economy, and our national security. so combatting this attack, whether you're in the current administration or about to serve in the next one, is going to be inordinately complicated. considering the scope of what

could have been hacked, russia could have already covered their tracks, given they were roaming undetected in this network for months, they think as far back as march. by the way, the response from the president, zero. nothing. not a tweet, not a statement, not a word. which has some lawmakers mystified, considering the gravity of this specific russian threat. >> they had the capacity to show that our defense is extraordinarily inadequate. that our cyber warfare readiness is extraordinarily weak, that they think so little of our ability to fight back from a cyber standpoint, that they do this with impunity. so our national security is extraordinarily vulnerable. and in this -- in this setting, not to have the white house aggressively speaking out and protesting and taking punitive action is really, really quite extraordinary. >> my north bay colleague

shannon pettypiece has the latest from the white house where president trump has remained quiet on the hack. shannon, what's interesting here is that the president's national security adviser has been on a trip and he cut it short because of this hack, so it was the only, i feel like, acknowledgement in the west wing that this was a serious issue, that robert o'brien decided we had to return to the white house. but any explanation why we haven't heard from the president on this? >> reporter: well, the most the white house has told us is that the president has been briefed on this. so, okay, good. i would certainly hope so, but, yes, that's the only official word we're getting out of the white house. you mentioned, really, no remarks from the president about this at all. i mean, of course, it's not that different, though, than how he has been failing to acknowledge, respond, address the other big crisis in this country right now, the coronavirus pandemic, as it burns across the country. you know, i think a lot of this has to do with the fact that

there is a growing sense of "home alone" in the administration right now. and as we get to the final days, it feels so much like the first days, where you have people in an acting role or a temporary foal filling really major jobs. of course, the head of cybersecurity, you've talked about chris krebs, who was fired by the president after the election. his job as being temporarily filled. but the secretary of defense is an acting position right now, because the president fired mark esper just a few weeks ago. and the president is meeting today with the current acting head of the department of defense. but even within the white house, a number of key positions, the head of communications, the communications director, she has left. that position is open. so it's getting to the point where you have a skeletal staff managing all of these issues or a temporary staff, as not only, we deal with the pandemic, but of course, this new crisis that we're dealing with. >> so, have they even -- has there been any briefing set up, sometimes, you know, shannon,

they'll -- instead of doing a public briefing, they might do a conference call with reporters? it might be a senior battleground official. has there even been anything like that on the house? >> i can tell you from our reporting, and what has been going on with myself and my colleagues and what our reporting indicates is, no, this is not an issue that the white house is trying to message through the media in any way, is trying to brief the media, bring them up on to some extent. certainly not from the white house, maybe in other departments of the government, but there's so little activity going on. and i would say one thing, our reporting indicates that the president is focused on today is pardons and particularly, there's a lot of speculation of what they'll be, but pardons for those involved in the russia investigation, based on some reportings by my colleagues and other news outlets. so that appears to be the focus in the news out today. >> shannon, thank you very much. i'll talk in just a moment to president trump's former

national security adviser, john bolton. but first, i want to bring in a cybersecurity expert. kirsten todd is the managing director of the cyber readiness institute and the former executive director of the commission on enhancing national cybersecurity during the obama administration. kerst kerstin, thank you for coming on. the list of government entities that have been impacted here, i'm going to put it up on screen, you know, it looks like, at this point, maybe the list of government entities that haven't been hacked might be a shorter list here. microsoft describes this attack, kerstin, as ongoing. ongoing. what does that mean and what do you fear that we don't know? >> well, chuck, thanks very much for having me on. good afternoon. this is certainly a frightening attack, for many reasons. what we know is that a software vulnerability was exploited and we should assume, as is often the case in any type of attack, the first lesson is that

everything has been breached. and unfortunately, as we learn more, the breadth and depth of this attack, it's certainly reasonable to expect that these networks are breached across government agencies, across industry. and the more concerning piece to this is that the adversary is probably in places that we haven't detected yet, and that's probably what microsoft was alluding to. so we have to be fully aware. the department of homeland security put out an alert yesterday saying we should start using out of bands communications, which means by the industry by which government and industry have been communicating with each other needs to essentially stop and we need to identify alternative ways, because the adversary is across all networks. >> all right. let's put that in layman's terms. right now, the government -- government employees at all of these impacted agencies can't use email, can't use their government-issued phones, can't use government-issued laptops, can't work on government networks? is that what you're saying?

>> to be completely secure, it's recognizing that if there's going to be any discussion about how to respond to this attack, it certainly shouldn't happen with the communications tools that have been used up to this point. so anything with any type of private confidential discussion around response to this remediation should be done through out of band communications. which is a very serious statement. this is, do not underestimate the power and the impact of saying something like that at the government level. >> so there's supposedly been these networks in march and the assumption is they might have done backdoor things and things like that. how could they have gone this long in the united states without knowing that they were in our network since march? i mean, we found out -- when did this solar winds, this vendor, is it fire eye, i guess, is the first one that found out. we're talking about maybe around end of november. so they went undetected for

eight months. how? >> well, chuck, this is the question. how did they have this attack for so long, when adversaries on our networks for a long period of time, it just gives them more opportunity to do more malicious activity. and what it really demonstrates is that the tools that we have in government right now are insufficient and inadequate to address the threats of today. and what that means is that we have to be identifying, working more closely with the private sector, pulling in those best practices. you're a veteran of washington, d.c. you know the procurement process is not a fast one, but speed and agility in how we respond to these attacks and in detection has to be critical. the other piece is what we're doing before an event happens. government and industry working together, pre-event planning to hunt adversaries, to make sure we get them off the networks and to determine when they are on our networks. >> you know, in talking to you a little bit yesterday, talking to you now, talking to other

experts, i feel like i'm hearing a similar story to what we heard after 9/11, when it was, well, we had the intelligence, some agencies knew some things, but they weren't talking. in this cyber attack, is it -- do we not -- does the world of i.t. in the government not talk to each other? does the cybersecurity folks, is there a whole of -- do we not just have this whole of government conversation, or do we have the same stovepipe issues, if you will, and siloing that hampered us before 9/11. >> chuck, assiit's a great ques, because when we talk about multiple agencies, intelligence, defense, civilian, we do have trouble coordinating across all of these efforts. and there was legislation that was passed on friday, that has gotten bipartisan support to bring a senior role into the white house to have oversight and coordination over this type -- over cyber activity.

and i think that's certainly a step in the right direction. but we absolutely have to be coordinating more effectively, more efficiently, and recognizing the responsibility that we're putting on agencies. i'll just say, right after 9/11, i was working on the legislation to create dhs, and so i'm aware of what scsa's capabilities are. in may of this year, sca was responsible for pandemic response, securing our presidential election, and securing government agencies and working with the private sector on cybersecurity. it's a 2-year-old agency with about 2,000 employees. so we clearly have a disconnect in how we're running and managing all of this. having said that, there are also great efforts on the part of nsa and cyber command. it's really about synthesizing and creating oversight and structure. >> not to get -- not to drawn people in the alphabet soup of washington, but scsa, which is the agency that chris krebs was running, is it possible that pandemic and election security

was such a priority that we didn't see what was happening on the cybersecurity side of things? >> well, to your earlier question, this just didn't fall on scsa alone. it's a broader issue to step back and see how are we organized to prevent and protect these issues. and one of the key pieces to this is working more closer with the private sector. taking some of their best practices, bringing them into government. and i would say, you know, the boring yet critical piece to national security is supply chain security. we have to have better insight and transparency into the supply chains of how we're protecting government agencies. and making sure that each of those components is secure. >> so, for the incoming biden administration, if all of our networks are compromised, how do we go about uncompromising them?

do you have to basically -- do we have to scrap, build new ones? or can we root out this malware? >> well, with any response, with any crisis, our first piece we look at remediation is disaster recovery, think about it like responding to a hurricane. so the disaster recovery in this is going to identify what happened, what went wrong. when i served as executive director of president obama's bipartisan commission, one of our recommendations was to have an ntsb national transportation safety board-like structure after a cyber event to be able to see where are the -- where the vulnerabilities, where are the compromises, what can we save, and what do we need to rebuild. and certainly, that will be a priority for the biden administration. a second priority, though, absolutely, is that we have to look at consequences for these types of attacks. we're still struggling to identify how we respond as a nation, but more importantly, across nations, to these types

of cyber events. and as long as they go without consequences, they will continue to happen. so i certainly expect that the biden administration will work with allies, like-minded economic partners to figure out, how do we respond to these types of events, so we can prevent them and manage them much more effectively. >> well, you just did a wonderful segue to my next guest, a former national security adviser, with whom i want to ask that very question when it comes to retaliation. kirsten todd, a longtime cybersecurity expert in and out of government, thank you for coming on and sharing your expertise with us. much preesappreciated. with me now is former national security adviser, ambassador john bolton. so let me start the questioning this way, ambassador bolton. what's the line between hack and attack, as far as the national security of the united states is under this circumstance? >> yeah, well, i think as most

people have commented in the past few days, we obviously still don't know the full extent of the damage that's opinion done or the potential damage, but from what has been publicly reported, the closest analogy that i can draw here is this is like a proof of concept attack for the japanese on pearl harbor on december the 7th. it's like, they flew several hundred airplanes over pearl harbor, didn't actually attack anything, just take a look at the ships at their docking positions and then went back to their aircraft carriers. what else do you have to know at this point, to know that the russians can get in into all of these different systems. and if they can, so can others. so i think there are many, many tasks that have to be performed here. me question about it. but i think the top priority has got to be, if we determine it's the russians, that's where the infrastructure tends to point. what the retaliation is going to

be. and i think it ought to be whatever we assess the costs we have incurred to be, plus, plus, plus. that's how you reestablish the terms. >> well, it's interesting on deterrence, but this has been a debate, i know the obama administration had this debate, i believe you guys had this debate at times in the trump administration. what is an appropriate response on cyber? and one of the arguments i've heard that makes it very difficult is, we get hurt more on cyber attacks than other countries do, because we're just more developed. so what would that look like on russia? >> well, let's be clear. the russians, the chinese, the iranians, the north koreans and others have focused on cyber, because it is an asymmetric attack against the united states. they can't match us in many other areas. so they have.

itted an area of real vulnerability and gone after it. so by the same token, it doesn't necessarily mean that our response has to be in cybersp e cyberspace. it could be in other areas, as well. and what i'm reminded of, watching the discussion over the past week, i'm reminded of the old adage, war is too important to be left to the generals. and i would say here, cybersecurity is too important to be left to the cybersecurity geeks. this is a question of the highest political order internationally. and this is not something that you let technical experts debate about. this is a real test of the united states i just want to say again. the fact that the russians can do it should tell us that everybody else understands that they can do it, too >> explain to me how cybersecurity threats worked when you were national security adviser. how were they dealt with? how did you deal with it? one of your first actions was to

eliminate the cybersecurity coordinator. so i'm curious how you viewed that issue when you were running the nsa. >> well, it was of the highest importance. let me address this coordinator role, which i think is something that people who don't understand the nsc structure don't understand. when i arrived, there was a fullup cybersecurity direct rore headed by two senior directors, but there was also a cybersecurity. i merged the two offices, so that instead of basically fighting each other, we could direct in one area. and let me just say, you might consider defense a pretty important area, too. the nsc staff has no coordinator for defense. it has a directorate for defense and a senior director. that's how they are all handled. so i was trying to regularize and make the structure more

efficient. and the proof of that is after 15 minutes of the administration, when i came in, the trump administration had not issued a cybersecurity strategy. i merged these two offices and we produced a strategy. but the most important thing, i think, that we did was reverse the obama administration's decision-making procedures for launching offensive cyber. they were so complex, so centralized at the white house that all concurred that we had not done what we needed to do to reestablish deterrence, because we had launched so few offensive cyber operations. and with the 2018 elections very much in mind, we changed that and i think cyber command did do an effective job in '18 and in 2022 on the elections. but the bigger point remains. and this is ant question of something that started in march. it goes back years, maybe

decade decades. >> the issue of russian hacking and russian attacks was an issue five years ago, it was an issue when the president took office, and now an issue as he's leaving office. a lot of lay people will look at this and say, i'm shocked. president trump who never could say a negative word about vladimir putin suddenly is the one that looked -- is he the one that looked the other way while this happened? i know plenty of people inside the administration were tough on russia, but not him. how does this not look like he was squljust sort of a wink and nod to putin like, go ahead, keep it up, i won't say anything? >> i don't think he was giving a wink and a nod to putin, i just don't think he was doing his job in respect of policy to russia. but that doesn't distinguish frit many, many other aspects of his presidency where he wasn't doing his job. and it certainly put a burden on

everybody. i'm really talking about people other than me here who deserve a lot of credit for continuing to push hard on this. and it was a failure of president trump himself and it's one reason i'm happy he's gone, soon. >> i don't know if joe biden will ask for your advice, but when you say deterrence on this, what do you hope he does when it comes to dealing with the russians on this? >> well, let me say, you know, it's been convenient for the democrats politically to attack trump on russia for the last four years. if you look at the history of the cold war, the hard liners on the soviet union were not democrats, by and large. so i hope the dna has changed and i hope president-elect biden is very serious, as in his remarks yesterday, which i found encouraging. but i think this is a huge problem. i think it is much more serious than that particular hack.

much more serious than just russia. much more serious than just cyberspace. let me give you one small point. how much of the equipment, hardware, and software that was compromised in the government systems, the private sector systems and in this and other attacks was produced in china? and yet now, we still have trouble. just yesterday, germany said they would still let huawei into their telecommunication systems. this is huge across the board. you cannot underestimate its significance. >> no, and you're also getting into third party vendors. and you know, they might not be able to do work internationally. there's a lot here, i think, when it comes to domestic production that's going to go into the cybersecurity aspect. anyway, ambassador john bolton within former national security adviser, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective, sir. >> glad to be with you. and we'll have more on what congress may be doing in

response to these hacks later in the show. up next, we are waiting for the fda to officially authorize the moderna vaccine. we'll check in with a rural area that is standing by for delivery and distribution. plus, we're going to talk to dr. richard besser, a former acting director of the cdc's and the agency's issues with public trust in the covid era. c trust in the covid era ect gift up until the last minute. let's end the year nailing it. ♪ we started by making the cloud easier to manage. but we didn't stop there. we made a cloud flexible enough to adapt to any size business. no matter what it does, or how it changes. and we kept going. so you only pay for what you use. because at dell technologies, we stop...at nothing. ♪

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a little bit of vaccine news, the transition team announced that president-elect joe biden and jill biden will receive their first dose of the pfizer vaccine publicly on monday in delaware. and as we mentioned a t t ed ed of the show, we are within hours of a second vaccine. the united states has already ordered 200 million doses of the moderna vaccine with 6 million doses expected to ship out in a matter of days, once the fda gives official green light, which we think could happen today. unlike the pfizer's vaccine, moderna's could be stored in a

typical refrigerate perp that's relief for smaller hospitals and rural areas across the country who don't have the resources to store vaccines at ultra-cold temperatures. in fact, i think the moderna vaccine is going to be the vaccine that makes it to more of america. valerie castro is in pottawattamie county in southwest iowa where they're planning a vaccine clinic and prioritizing nursing home staff and residents. so valerie, i assume that it's the moderna vaccine that they believe they're waiting on, when it comes. what's their plan and how anxious is the community? >> reporter: good afternoon, chuck. there's obviously a lot of anticipation for this vaccine to get that final approve. and we're here outside the midamerican center where pottawattamie county health officials are set up a clinic. they are anticipating they will get 1,600 doses of the moderna vaccine if all goes as planned. they expect it to arrive on tuesday of next week. and they say 400 of those doses will be administered at the clinic that they have set up

here inside this convention center. the people that will get the vaccine here at the clinic are the people that work at smaller health care facilities around the state nearby, here in the county. rural health facilities, offices that may only have a few workers, eight to ten people, small family care practices, urologists, o.b/gyns, people tht are not affiliated with a larger health care system, they will be able to come here to get this vaccine and they say the moderna vaccine is really going to make that possible. take a listen to what they had to say. >> for the pfizer vaccine, it takes an ultracold storage that we've all heard of. we did not have the capabilities in southwest iowa for ultracold storage, so that's why the state has allotted the moderna vaccine, which is a little bit easier to work with and doesn't require the cold storage. >> reporter: and yesterday, we got the chance to speak to a woman named jennifer, she works at a nursing home facility. she is going to be one of the first to get the vaccine here

next week. she says she's excited, her colleagues are excited, as well as the residents that she takes care of. chuck? >> valerie castro in council blu bluffs, iowa, where we're getting people not only to get the vaccine to them but getting them to take it will be a challenge. valerie, thank you. some states say they're not getting the amount of vaccine they've been promised. the former head of the cdc joins me to talk about that. plus, trust in the cdc, the dangers of holiday travel and more. but first today, the supreme court dismissed a challenge to president trump's plan to exclude undocumented immigrants from the 2020 census. it hands the president a partial victory. although it's possibly a temporary one, because the court said too much is unknown right now about whether the administration can even carry out the plan and what effect it would have on the states. folks, could we actually have a redo of the census? just something to think about. we'll be right back. just something to think about. we'll rbeight back. ♪

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of the pfizer doses they had been promised has been cut. now, health secretary alex azar is disputing that claim, calling it simply a misunderstanding. >> there was some misunderstanding from certain of our governors. we had put into the planning the tool some base scenarios, just so they could do some rough work on planning. we'll work to clear up any misunderstanding they've got, but it's really just a miscommunication between the governors and us. >> joining me now is dr. richard besser, the former acting director of the cdc. dr. besser, do you take secretary azar at his word on this one? is this just the typical, almost, when you're trying to do something this big, this vast, you're going to have these problems? or is this a case where the administration overpromised and underdelivered? >> you know, chuck, those are all possibilities and i have no visibility into that. it's clear that doing something

on this scale, you are going to hit all kinds of speed bumps. and when there is a speed bump, you want to make sure that there's transparency around that. so i don't know if this is a speed -- one of those speed bumps in terms of production or whether it is miscommunication in terms of how many doses are coming. i think what the really exciting and good news is, is that it's likely there will be moderna vaccine rolling as well, so that there will be vaccine for states to be administering and a vaccine that will have less challenging distribution requirements, because it doesn't immediate to be kept quite so cold. >> i'm curious, and maybe bedon't know the answer to this, but the pfizer vaccine and the moderna vaccine, require a second shot. with pfizer, it's three weeks later. with moderna, it's four weeks later. what happens if you show up three weeks later for your second shot and let's say for one or another, they don't have the doses yet, it's not there. what is the -- you know, at what

point, does taking that second shot become diminishing returns? >> yeah. yeah, you know, that's something that i think that we probably will have the opportunity to study, because there always be some people who don't make it for that second shot. we'll be able to look and see how much protection there is. you know, it's exciting when you look at the data that's been posted by the food and drug administration, that both of these vaccines do provide a significant level of protection after the first dose. not clear how long that that lasts. if it lasts a really long time, then that's terrific. because there are real challenges wherever you have a two-dose vaccine. you know, i'm a general pediatrician and we spend a lot of time tracking kids down to come in for shots that they're due. here, with this situation, where you've got two different vaccines, different lengths of time between doses, and the likelihood that between those

two doses, their lives will change. some people will move states. we don't shave the kind of electronic databases for the entire nation, so we'll be counting in large part on people carrying those little white cards that they're given when they get vaccinated to know which vaccine they had and which one they'll need to get the next time. >> let's talk about public health. you just used a phrase that i think that you've gotten used to say. chronic underfunding of public health. the cdc trust rating, i think, was even below president trump in the most recent numbers we saw from pew at 31%. there was the story earlier this week where two staffers inside of the cdc essentially told "the new york times" of just how much outside interference there was, particularly from the white house. what -- how would you begin the restoration of the cdc's good name? >> yeah, well, you know, one good thing, chuck, is that we've

not seen a rush to the exits within the cdc. i worked at the cdc for 13 years and i've never worked at a place that was more mission focused, was more committed to kbroouimp the lives and health of people here and around the globe. and people haven't fled. so my heart breaks when i see those trust surveys, because typically, cdc ranks as the number one or number two federal agency in terms of trust. the president-elect has indicated that he's going to put in dr. rochelle walensky, who is, you know, a national treasure, a leader in infectious diseases, a terrific communicator. and i think the trust will come by putting her or someone else from cdc out front, every day, talking to the public, about what they need to do. and having political leaders, at the highest levels, standing next to her and nodding and then modeling the behavior that the

cdc is recommending. that will help -- that will help a lot. not just in restoring faith in cdc, but in public health around the nation. you know, there are 1 in 8 people now in america who live in a connecticut where the public health leader was either fired, resigned, or retired. in large part due to the political pressure and really the, you know, vilification of our public health leaders. and that -- that is going to take a long time to rebuild. it's going to take sustained funding of a kind public health has never had. public health tends to get a lot of funding during and right after a crisis. and within two years, it goes away, because there's other priorities. and we can't allow that to happen. >> i don't want to let you go without basically giving you an invitation to talk about how dire the next two months are going to be. are you seeing nany signs that maybe we can mitigate the worst of these next two months? it looks -- honestly, it looks

horrible. the models look terrible. i don't see any good news. do you? >> well, you know, the only thing that gives me a little hope, and, you know, it's so exciting to see these vaccines coming. they're not going to help us this winter, as you've been saying. it has to be following public health measures. the only thing that gives me a little hope was when i was listening to the vice president. he talked not just about vaccines, but he modeled wearing a mask while he got the vaccine. which is something we haven't seen, you know, all the time, from our top leaders. and then, when he was talking, he talked about the importance of vigilance, of wearing masks, keeping apart, and washing our hands. and if we can see that behavior modeled by out of the white house, wearing masks, not gathering, doing those things, that will give me some hope. without that, this will be a very grim and dark winter. >> yeah. it's just to me so tragic to see people die just before they have

access to the vaccine. that's what makes it even more critical. please wear the masks. anyway, dr. besser, former acting director of the cdc, always great to get your expertise here. thank you, sir. >> thanks, chuck. still ahead, there's a new sticking point on capitol hill over the coronavirus prrelief bl as members of congress now have less than 12 hours before the government shuts down at midnight tonight. at fidelity, you get personalized wealth planning and unmatched overall value. together with a dedicated advisor, you'll make a plan that can adjust as your life changes, with access to tax-smart investing strategies that help you keep more of what you earn. and with brokerage accounts, you see what you'll pay before you trade. personalized advice. unmatched value. at fidelity, you can have both. ♪ more than this so this aveeno® moisturizer goes beyond just soothing sensitive skin? exactly jen!

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voice like mine has never been a cabinet secretary or at the head of the department of interior. growing up in my mother's pueblo household made me fierce. i'll be fierce for all of us, our planet, and all of our protected land. aim honored and ready to serve. haaland has served new mexico's first district since 2019, when she became one of the first two native women to serve in congress, alongside kansas congresswoman's cherice davids. democrats will hold a razor-thin house majority while they await special elections to fill the seats of now president-elect biden's either cabinet nominees or west wing staff. two cabinet nominees, marcia fudge, deb haaland, and a special election in haaland's new mexico district could be competitive. no democrat breaks 60% in those things and you never know what happens in a special. we'll have to see. we'll be right back with senator chris coons. see. we'll beig rht back with senator chris coons. fewer asthm.

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welcome back. we are just hours away from a government shutdown, and negotiators on capitol hill are working to keep the government funded and hammer out a deal on covid relief along with it. senator majority leader mitch mcconnell was hopeful. but there could be a new road block. republicans and pennsylvania senator pat toomey in particular, he's insistent that it is turning into a bit of a

sticking point. he says the feds shouldn't be responsible for lending. democrats accuse toomey, one of the first republicans to acknowledge joe biden's victory, of trying to hamstring the incoming biden administration. i think this is something pat toomey is sort of -- this is something i think he'd be calling for probably under most circumstances. with me now though is senator chris coons, a democrat from delaware. senator, let me start from there. i followed senator toomey for a long time. he is somebody that is not a fan of these tools in general. so in some cases it's not a surprise to see him be against this. is this enough to blow up the deal? >> well, that's right, chuck. pat toomey is an economic conservative and has long been a crusader for reigning in the scope and reach of the federal government. but, frankly, it is enormously frustrating to me that we are this close to being done. we're on the one-yard line. we finally got all four leaders,

the house and the senate both parties saying we are nearly done agreeing on the scope of the package and so many millions of americans urgently needing this relief. i certainly hope that senator toomey will accept a smaller restriction on these programs. and i am concerned that if fully implemented, it would hamstring the biden administration or any on the future administration from using these treasury department tools for emergency lending. >> is there any room -- i mean, look, i get wanting to have an expiration date on these tools. any reason why you can't negotiate an expiration date of six months from now or nine months from now or a reauthorization in six months? >> well, chuck, you're getting a little window into why with an enormous bill that covers lots of different areas. there are dozens of little points of disagreement that have

arisen in recent days. yes, we should be able to negotiate some resolution here that allows pat toomey to have made a successful point about restraining treasury's powers but doesn't prevent us from concluding this deal in time to get needed relief to millions of americans. i'll remind you, the eviction moratorium is about to expire. unemployment insurance has long run out. millions of businesses are eagerly waiting to hear if there's going to be money to either keep them open or help them reopen. we are just beginning to distribute the vaccine. and we need more investment in that. and, by the way, we are beginning to learn about how significant an attack we've just suffered from a cyber intrusion by the russians. i think it's time for us to reach reasonable compromises, finish this package, and send it to the american people. >> i take it that the one thing there is agreement on among all

of you is that you have to do a deal. >> yes. >> i have assumed that that would be enough to get this done. is this possible that even though everybody wants a deal that it's not -- it really could not happen? >> chuck, i've been here ten years, and i can't tell you how many years we get right up against a government shutdown, a fiscal cliff. it is really only the deadline of something like the holidays or urgent widespread national needs that forces some of the members of this body to finally get over their personal concerns and compromise. it is a very difficult place in which to legislate these days. and looking forward to the next congress and to next year, chuck, i think we could set an example by finally resolving these issues today, passing this, and then moving forward to the next congress. >> right. you brought up the cyber hack.

i spent a good first half of this program of this hour on the hack. there's one specific piece i want to ask you about. in the new defense spending bill, there is a cyber command, there's a lot more money, and there's a big new position. but the president wants to veto this bill. what is the u.s. senate's plan to override this veto between now and january 3rd if this veto does indeed happen? i know he hasn't done it yet. and he apparently may wait till december 23rd to do it. what does that mean for this defense which, again, includes a huge expenditure when it comes to cybersecurity? >> well, chuck, let's just reflect on this for a moment. president trump, what is he doing today? is he helping it respond to the pandemic? is he helping us pass a bipartisan relief bill? is he helping us respond to this

russian attack, this modern-day cyber attack that has infiltrated virtually every major significant agency of our government? no. he's sending out tweets about an election that's been over more than a month. and he's preparing more pardons. the idea that he would veto a defense authorization bill that passed by broad bipartisan margins in both chambers and would provide 10 billion in new assistance for cybersecurity and create new authorities and a new position is just wildly irresponsible. to your question about how is the senate preparing to override his veto, i am confident the senate could override his veto. the challenge is the house. the house has to act first. and they have to override a veto. i believe it's by a two-thirds majority of those present and voting. and given the strength of the president in terms of his followership in the house as indicated by the number of them, i think it was over 120 that

joined a completely baseless complaint in the supreme court just last week. i am concerned that they will struggle to override his veto. that means it may end up being the last thing that president trump does, vetoing a national security bill in the middle of our unfolding awareness of a massive attack. and it'll be the first thing we'll have to do in january. >> senator chris coons, democrat from delaware, let's hope you guys get to work before christmas eve. anyway, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective. >> thanks. >> and thank you all for being with us this hour. please tune in sunday for "meet the press" on your local nbc station. dr. vivek murthy will be among my guests. coverage continues with katy tur right after this break. traditionally, black people have been shut out [music playing throughout]

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good afternoon. i'm katy tur. it is 11:00 a.m. out west and 2:00 p.m. i