consecutive life sentences. ♪ this sunday, assault on democracy. egged on by president trump. >> we're going to walk down to the capitol! because you'll never take back our country with weakness. you have to show strength. >> thousands of pro-trump rioters storm into the capitol building. overwhelming security. >> stop the steal! [ crowd chanting ] >> members of congress cowering in the house gallery. >> we were just told that there has been tear gas in the rotunda, and we're being instructed to, each of us, get gas masks. >> five people dead, the

speaker's office breached, many others trashed. scenes more out of a dictatorship than a democracy. now the aftermath. democrats moving to impeach the president a second time. >> i think the american people have seen enough and they are ready for us to do the job of impeaching this man. >> cabinet secretaries and other officials resigning. >> i can't stay here. i can't, not after yesterday. >> the president permanently banned from twitter, insisting he and his supporters will not go away, a democracy in crisis. my guests this morning, former trump chief of staff mick mulvaney, the chairman of the house democrats, hakeem jeffries, and republican senator pat toomey of pennsylvania. joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt, nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson, former homeland security secretary jeh johnson, and "wall street journal" columnist peggy noonan.jo welcome to sunday and a special edition of "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest running showlo in television history.

this is a special edition of "meet the press with chuck todd." good sunday morning. it wasy almost exactly four yes ago at his inauguration that donald trump stood at the u.s. capitol and said, "this american carnage stops right here and stops right now." on wednesday, that american carnage came to the capitol. inspired byth a president tryin to deny his successor's inauguration. make no mistake, what happened that day was an insurrection against the united states government by thousands of pro-trumpme rioters who stormed and sacked the capitol, aided by elected republicans trying to overturn joe biden's victory with a big lie and inspired by a president of the united states who urged that mob on. then later that day, excused the violence with a lie, again, callingli the election fraudule. since wednesday, president trump has been largely out of sight, muzzled by twitter and facebook.

his only public appearance, a walk-it-back video scripted by someone else in which he told those same rioters they will pay if they broke the law. so, what now? democrats are preparing to impeach president trump for a second time. speaker nancy pelosi promising to move forward if mr. trump does not resign. there has been talk of removing the president through the 25th amendment, butth there does not appear to be enough support for that. and mr. trump is even said to be discussing trying to preemptively pardon himself, or he could be talked into resignation early in order to receive a more legally sound pardon from a president pence. wednesday's madness was what happens when supporters take president trump both seriously and literally. still, this was as predictable as it was shocking. in fact, don't take my word for it. take the word of senator marco rubio, who said this in 2016

about supporting candidate trump, something he has done since 2016.da "you mark my words, there will be prominent people in american politics who will spend years explaining to people how they fell into this." days after he provoked a violent mob to storm the capitol, a single article of impeachment is expected to be introduced on monday, accusing president trump of incitement of insurrection, if he does not resign. >> we're going to walk down, and i'll be there with you, because you'll never take back our country with weakness. you have to show strength.un >> there's a gun! there's a gun! there's a gun! >> this video shows the moment rioters reached the lobby. lawmakers hiding in fear, security brandishing guns. >>ra we have just been told the is tear gas in the rotunda, and

we're being instructed to, each of us, get gas masks that are under our seats. >> dozens have now been charged after n wednesday's rampage, including richard barnett of arkansas, photographed in speaker pelosi's office, lonnie coffman of alabama, whose vehicle allegedly contained 11 molotov cocktails, a handgun, and an assault rifle. he was carrying two more guns. and jacob anthony chansley, aka, jake angeli of arizona, who confronted law enforcement carrying a spear. protester ashli babbitt was fatally shot by a police officer, now on administrative leave. capitol police officer brian sicknick also died from injuries after pro-trump rioters struck him in the head with a fire extinguisher, according to police. >> this is aner act of domestic terrorism, so this is what the fbi will be focused on 24/7. >> the president on wednesday telling the mob -- >> this was a fraudulent election, but we can't play into the hands of these people.

we have to have peace. so, go home. we love you. >> only taping a scripted about-face after pressure. >> my focus now turns to ensuring a smooth, orderly, and seamless transition of power. >> then reversing course again on twitter, tweeting his supporters "will have a giant voice long into the future. they will not be disrespected or treated unfairly," saying he will not be going to biden's inauguration. hours later, twitter permanently suspended his account, due to the risk of further incitement of violence. now democrats are pushing to impeach him a second time. >> he has done something so serious that there should be prosecution against him. >> i think the american people have seen enough. >> republican senator lisa murkowski calling on president trump to step down -- "i want him out. he has caused enough damage." >> i will definitely consider whatever articles they might move, because as i've told you, i believe the president has disregardedpr his oath of offic. >> but senate republican leader

mitch mcconnell is making it clear, impeachment proceedings could not start until january 19th in the senate, a day before biden is sworn in. >> i think it's a ridiculous discussion to have. you don't have the time for it to happen, even if there was a reason. >> and joining me now is president trump's former chief of staff, mick mulvaney, who, himself, just resigned as special envoy to northern ireland as a result of wednesday's riot. mr. mulvaney, welcome back to "meet the press" and to viewers and yourself. yes, i have a rough voice. a lot of broadcasting during the week and a lot of hot water and lemon this weekend. mr. mulvaney, let me start with -- look, you worked with him very closely. what is his state of mind right now? >> chuck, thanks very much for having me. sorry you're feeling under m th weather. i don't know. i know what it would have been like eight months, a year ago. i have seen the president in similar circumstances, certainly nothing of this gravity, but i've not told folks this story before, about how we had an

incident during the impeachment when he was accused in social media or by some politicians of interfering with a witness while she was testifying. i know a little bit about witness intimidation, didn't think it was a legal problem, but we knew it was a political problem, and i went to him privately, closed the door and said, mr. president, this is a problem, we need to fix it. he t pushed back a little bit, t thenck he called the lawyer, th he called kevin mccarthy, and i think he called ivanka and a bubu bunch of his friends in new york and took data and information and opinions from ato bunch of people and then pivoted and changed course. that's the president that i p knew. that's the reason i thought that we'd never be here. i thought the president would be presidential. clearly, that system has broken down. and whether or not the president is different or the people advising him are different or both, i don't know what's going on inside the oval office now and i don't know what's going on inside the president's head. >> so, you say he's different. but in fairness -- and you probably knew this was coming -- in 2016, congressman mick

mulvaney called then candidate donald trump a terrible human being, said he would be disqualified from office in an ordinary universe, because of what you said were atrocious things he had said. do you wishe you had listened congressman mulvaney? >> chuck, i'm very familiar with that comment. i think if you look at that in context, that was on the eve of or the day after the "access hollywood" tape and some of those terrible things the president said, the locker room talk, as he describes it. that's different. policy differences are different. stylistic differences are different. things you don't like about a person's personalities are different than what happened on wednesday. wednesday was a fundamental united states. itna speaks toy what makes us american. it's an existential type of thing, it's not superficial. it's deep and it's real and it's different, which is why you saw so many resignations this week and didn't see them over the course of the last couple years. wednesday changed everything. >> a lot of people would push back at you and say, you know, character is destiny.

and in fact, i do -- you've used this eight-month marker. i want to -- his rhetoric, incendiary rhetoric goes back far greater than just the last few weeks. here's some examples. >> i love the old days. you know what they used to do to guys like that when they were at a place like this? they'd be carried out on a stretcher, folks. if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. although the second amendment, people. maybe there is, i don't know. proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> you see where i'm going here. it is one of these things. you are basically saying, i didn't see this version of donald trump. a lot of us, with all due respect said, yeah, we saw -- this version of donald trump to us didn't change. the guy we saw celebrating violence in '16, and it just sort of carried through to, sadly, this inevitable conclusion. >> yeah. and i know it's easy for folks

now who have never liked the president or always disagreed with his policies or really disliked him as a person to say, why didn't everybody see this coming. but keep in rymind, so many of that worked with him every single day didn't see him through a filter. in fairness, you saw him, oftentimes -- you've had some face-to-face with him, but most people saw him through the filter of a media that didn't like him very much. we saw him every single day. the reason that i wrote the "wall street journal" six weeks ago that i thought the president would leave presidentially is because i had evidence to that end. i had stories, i had background, i had seen that type of president andun i never thought would see what i saw on wednesday. yes, the rhetoric was very high and very fiery.an you and i both know, however, that american politicians do this on a regular basis. i could pull you similar clips of maxine waters telling people to take to the streets. it's different, though, when -- and as you said in your entry, that people took him literally. i never thought i'd see that. i never thought i'd see a day in our country where people from any side of the political spectrum would f storm the capil

in order to intentionally stop the constitutional transfer of power, which is part of what was happening on wednesday. that's what's different, chuck. the country is different than i expected. >> i understand. >> we can talk about that as well, but yeah, it's not the same as it was in those previous examples. >> well, i do also want to give you a chance to respond. your predecessor is chief of staff, laid the blame on what he called the let trump be trump mind-set. here's his explanation, john kelly. >> myti replacement -- well, le me just say, this is what happens. yesterday and other things he has done in the last two years comes as a result of letting trump be trump. >> i have no sound. all right, i apologize for that. i'll read you the quote there. my qureplacement, well, let me just say, this is what happens. when you said let trump be trump. i understand you had some audio issues there. i did, too. i think the audience did hear it, for what it's worth, mr. mulvaney. so, the let trump be trump mind-set, in hindsight, do you wish you had figured out how to

create more barriers, more guardrails? >> no, not barriers, not guardrails. it's -- the president was the elected leader of the nation. it's not the job of the chief of staff to undo that. it's the job of trying to help the president be successful, which i think we wereen able too when i was -- we had tremendous successes. we had record low rates of unemployment. we had no new foreign wars for the first time in my memory during a presidential term. we had tremendous things to look back on as a success because we were able to work with the president, let him be himself, but also work together to be successful. you know why john kelly -- and i respect john, he's a tremendoust american, but he didn't resign when he was the chief of staff of the president. he warned against yes men. by the way, that is a good and sound warning. and one of the things i'm afraid of is that the west wing is different now than when john or i was there. the president used to love debate. he would love to get information from all sorts of different sides. i'm not sure that's happening now.s and if there's just aren't

people there reaffirming and reamplifying what they think he wants them to say. >> should donald trump be ostracized from the t republica party as you know it? >> i think it'spa going to happ anyway. i think the ideas will live on, i think the ideals of the republican party are bigger than one man. but if you have any idea or role in what happened on wednesday, you sort of don't deserve to lead the party anymore. the ideas are bigger than the people. but i think voters will take that into n consideration. i can't tell you -- again, i was elected in the tea party wave of 2010, sort of the precursor of the trump movement, and i can't tell you the number of people who have supported me for a decade who are saying that wednesday was a bridge too far. they love trump, they love the policies, they were real pleased with the successes of the first four years, but he lost them on wednesday, and i think that's the right thing. i think people need to know that what happened on wednesday is just different. k >> mick mulvaney, former white house chief of staff and budget director under president trump, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir.

>> thanks. with house democrats prepared to move on a second impeachment as early as tomorrow, i'm joined by congressman hakeem jeffries of new york, the chairman of the house democrats. congressman jeffries was the democrats' floor management during president trump's initial impeachment trial. congressman, welcome back to "meet the press." so, let me just start with this -- what would have to happen h this week that would somehow stop the house of representatives from impeaching the president? >> good morning, chuck. the assault on the capitol was a violent insurrection that was incitedt and encouraged by dond trump. it was an attack on the congress, an attack on the country, and an attack on the constitution. and donald trump represents a clear and present danger to the health and safety of the american people as well as our democracy. and that's why house democrats are united in demanding and seeking his immediate removal.

now, there are three ways that that can be brought about. vice president pence and a majority of the cabinet can step up and do the right thing and invoke the 25th amendment, and we are going to continue to push them to do that. we can also impeach donald trump, and he can be convicted and removed by the senate that should come back into town to dealck with this constitutional crisis and the existential threat to our democracy that's sitting at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. or, the republican enablers who are around donald trump can demand that he resign, similar to what took place in the aftermath of watergate. >> well, i'm curious, by the way. so, do you think there is -- if he does resign, you would remove the impeachment, it sounds like? and the reason i'm asking that scenario is, he could resign, but if the goal is to prevent him from ever holding federal office again, how would you go

about that without impeachment? >> the goal at the present moment is to address the existential threat that donald trump presents at this time. every second, every minute, every hour that donald trump remains inru office presents a dangerpr to the american people. you know, donald trump may be in the twitter penalty box, but he still has access to the nuclear codes. that's a frightening prospect. and so, all of our efforts at the present moment are focused on his immediate removal. that's the right thing to do. the house is a separate and co-equal branch of government. we have a constitutional responsibility to serve as a check and balance on an out-of-control executive branch. donald trump is completely and totally out of control. and even his longtime enablers have now come to that conclusion. >> the one member of house leadership that may have sympathetic views as yours is

liz cheney on the republican side of the aisle. have you had any talks with her or likeminded house republicans about joining this effort? >> well, liz cheney and i worked closely together in the immediate aftermath of the insurrection and the assault on the capitol just to make sure that the t members of our respective caucuses were safe and secure and received as much information as possible during the unfolding events and in the immediate aftermath of what took place. she is involved in a process talking to her republican colleagues about how they are going to deal with what's taking place on their side of the aisle. i'll let her speak to that. i do know that several republicans have publicly, and some privately, indicated that donald trump needs to be removed, and this long national nightmare needs to end. part of the problem here, chuck, is that donald trump and so many republicans in the house and the senate perpetrated the big lie

that joe biden did not win the election and that the presidency was being stolen. the american people have spoken. more than 80 million people voted for joe biden. the states have spoken. more than 300 electoral college votes in an electoral college landslide. the courts have spoken. more than 50 different decisions, many written by trump-appointed judges, all concluding that joe biden won the election in clear and convincing fashion. but the big lie was perpetrated, and that is what led to the insurrection, the coup d'etat attempt and the assault on the capitol. and so, the republicans are going to have to deal with that situation moving forward, once we address donald trump. >> are you going to feel safe at the inauguration? >> i will feel safe at the inauguration. and it's important for all of us to be there, in the same way that ite was important for democrats and republicans to return to the house floor and the senate floor to complete our

constitutional responsibilities and certify the election of joe biden. because what the insurrectionists and the seditionists are looking to do is halt normalcy, halt democracy, halt the peaceful transfer of power, and that is what january 20th at high noon represents. and so, i will feel safe. i have confidence in our law enforcement, in the secret service, who are in charge of security, confidence in our speaker to make sure that members are safe, and we'll be there, power will be transferred, and i look forward to joe biden and kamala harris' leadership in unifying the country, crushing the coronavirus, providing direct relief to the american people and building back better. >> b yeah. are you confident that capitol police or somebody else didn't help with this? e >> well, we need a comprehensive investigation in terms of how it all atunfolded. clearly, the capitol police were underresourced and underprepared, but there were a

lot of brave men and women, including officer sicknick, who fought hard, one of whom lost their lives, many of whom are injured. and so,m i'm going to lift the up today, but also make sure that those responsible for preparations are held accountable, some of whom have already indicated they're going to resign. but we need a full and complete investigation to ensure the safety and security of the american people, the safety and security of our staffs moving forward, the safety and security of members of ancongress, and t protection of the capitol, which is really the cathedral of our democracy in this great republic. and never again should we see the type of assault that occurred this past wednesday. >> congressman hakeem jeffries, a nightmare of a week. i'm glad we got through it. thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us.th up next, why were republicans silent for so long about the threat president trump posed? i'm going to talk to republican

senator pat toomey when we come back. ublican senator pat toomey when we come back. i feel like we're forgetting something.

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hey look, i found the tent! get xfinity home with no term contract required. click or call today. welcome back. it was two years ago that a man sent 16 packages containing pipe bombs to democrats and other perceived trump opponents. in october, the fbi arrested 13 people in connection with a plot to kidnap michigan's democratic governor, gretchen whitmer. virginia's governor was also on the kidnapping list. and throughout the trump presidency, journalists have been routinely threatened by trump supporters. sadly, i can attest to that on a near weekly basis. in the wake of wednesday's events, it's fair to ask why so many people remained silent about the obvious threat president trump's incendiary rhetoric poses. joining me is senator pat toomey of pennsylvania. senator toomey, thank you for

joining us. it's been a rough week. >> good morning, chuck. >> welcome back to "meet the press." let me start with this. there are calls for resignation, impeachment, removal by way of the 25th amendment. you, yourself, said he's committed impeachable offenses. in your view, what is the most appropriate way for donald trump to exit office? >> well, i think the best way for our country, chuck, is for the president to resign and go away as soon as possible. i acknowledge that may not be likely, but i think that would be best. it does not look as though there is the will or the consensus to exercise the 25th amendment option, and i don't think there's time to do an impeachment. there's ten days left before the president leaves, anyway. i think the best thing would be a resignation. >> the issue of impeachment. you have said he committed impeachable offenses, and there's clearly the timing issue. >> right. >> but one of the goals, one of the penalties that come with impeachment -- this is almost as much about removing him from

current office, but it would prevent him from ever holding federal office again, assuming a majority senate vote, if he's convicted, would also then do that. should that be the goal, how to make sure this man never holds federal office ever again because of what he did on wednesday? >> yeah, so chuck, a couple of things. one, it's not clear the constitution permits impeachment, conviction, and prohibition against ever serving again, which is a separate vote, that that's permitted after a person has left office, which is what would have to happen here. so, whether that could be done in a binding fashion is really an open question. so, that's number one. number two, i would certainly hope -- and i actually do believe -- that the president has disqualified himself. i don't think he's a viable candidate for office ever again because of the outrageous behavior in the postelection

period. so, those would be my two points. >> throughout his term, senator, you were on here quite a few times when uncomfortably, he would say something or do something, where i would ask you about his rhetoric and you had a consistent answer, and i want to show some folks those answers. here we go. >> i don't spend a lot of time trying to evaluate and analyze why the president comes to the conclusions he comes to. i don't spend a lot of time focusing on the president's tweets and things that the president says. what i focus more is on what is he going to actually do. i think it's a long way to attributing any kind of real link between what the president might say or tweet and the extraordinary type of madness that leads someone to massacre people. >> now look, in fairness, i also want to play what you said on the senate floor this week. here's that. >> we witnessed today the damage that can result when men in power and responsibility refuse

to acknowledge the truth. we saw bloodshed because a demagogue chose to spread falsehoods and sow distrust of his own fellow americans. >> senator, you know the question that's coming, and i'm sure you've heard it from a lot of people. do you regret not speaking out sooner? and did you underestimate the threat of his rhetoric? >> chuck, i think it's important to make a distinction between the president's behavior prior to the election and his behavior after the election. for years, the president said ridiculous things. he lied frequently. many objectionable things. if they were sufficiently objectionable, i did publicly weigh in, and i did many, many times. but he tweeted hundreds of times a day, many days, and i still don't think i should have gone back and attempted to be his twitter editor. after the election, he took this to an entire different place, orders of magnitude different.

look, i mean, come on, recruiting thousands of americans from around the country to descend on the capitol, promising a wild ride and inciting them to attack the capitol building, so as to prevent the constitutional responsibility of the vice president and the congress to complete the peaceful transfer of power after an election, also that he could try to stay in office, that is wildly beyond anything that any of us -- well, certainly that i ever contemplated and anything that he did before. so, i don't think that this unbelievable behavior of wednesday, for instance, could have been reasonably expected. >> well, you say that, and with all due respect, an entire primary campaign was waged against him in 2016 where some of the very people that support this president still, like ted cruz, called him a pathological liar, worried that his rhetoric was going to go in another --

and many people didn't believe it. you, yourself, already explained to me, you didn't really believe this was going to go there. and i guess a lot of other folks go, why? how did you miss it? >> well, you know, how did half of america miss it or more than half of america? i'm quite sure that many democrats that voted for joe biden didn't expect that this was going to happen, chuck. and it's because the president spiraled down into a kind of madness that was different. i'm sorry if people don't acknowledge that. i think what he did this past week is wildly different from the offensive tweets that were common during his presidency, and i don't think that those tweets clearly indicated that this was coming. >> what kind of responsibility do you hold senators hawley and cruz for what happened on wednesday? >> look, i think what they're --

they're going to have a lot of soul searching to do. and the problem is, they were complicit in the big lie, this lie that donald trump won the election in a landslide and it was all stolen. they compounded that with this notion that, somehow, this could all be reversed in the final moments of the congressional proceedings. so, that's going to be -- that's going to haunt them for a very long time. >> i know you are -- you are not crazy about what you might consider overreach. would it be overreach to kick either man out of the senate? >> i think so. i think they're going to pay a very heavy price. what they did was -- it was technically permissible under senate rules. their voters will decide whether they get another term, and they're both young enough men that i'm sure they would certainly like to do that.

so, i think it should be left to the voters of their state to decide what their fate is. >> do you regret your vote for president now? >> no, knowing what i knew then, i think as the 75 million americans making this evaluation between this radicalization of the democratic party and an administration that had very significant successes, i understand, and this is -- it is a rational decision. nobody could have anticipated what has happened, i don't think, subsequent to the election. >> senator pat toomey, republican from pennsylvania, really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. thank you, sir. >> thanks for having me, chuck. >> you got it. when we come back, one of the most extraordinary weeks in american history. the panel is next. american history the panel is next. back, one of most extraordinary weeks in american history.

welcome back. the panel is joining us. nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt, nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson, former homeland security secretary jeh johnson and "wall street journal" columnist peggy noonan. hallie, i want to start with you, in the moment here. you covered this administration for the almost four years now, and i understand you have some news to share about what is the relationship these days between vice president pence and president trump. >> yeah. in a nutshell, chuck, it's not good. i have learned from a source familiar with this that not only

did president trump not reach out to vice president pence as the events of wednesday unfolded -- and remember, the vice president was in a secure location with, by the way, members of his family -- his wife, his daughter, his brother had all come to be in attendance. but i'm told that the president has not called vice president pence since then. it is a striking detail, and i think it reflects the relationship between these two men right now and how acrimonious it's become. of course, the president spent days, chuck, as you know, pressuring vice president pence publicly to do something that he just did not have the constitutional authority to do on wednesday. and further, chuck, just to advance this story more, it wasn't just the public pressure. i'm told that as far back as december 15th, mid-december, so weeks ago, there were behind-the-scenes maneuvering to try to essentially get the vice president to do what the president wanted -- calls arranged with attorneys walking through different scenarios that the vice president in the eyes of the president could potentially take, even though, again, as the vice president made very clear, he did not have the authority to do so, chuck.

as far as the 25th amendment, listen, i'm told that the vice president just does not think that that is practical. that's what we've been hearing and reporting from people close to him, allies, et cetera. but there is real concern and anger here about how this moves forward. >> kasie hunt, how bipartisan is impeachment going to be this week? >> that's the question, chuck. and i think we are moving toward it becoming a little bit more bipartisan, honestly. and listening to that interview that you just did with senator toomey i think underscores that. we're told that there may have been some lawmakers who, perhaps, voted with the president on the electoral college question, partly because they were afraid for their own safety and the safety of their families, that the calculation wasn't necessarily just a political one, which i think gives you a little bit of a sense of just how dramatic this was. now the question will be how political is it perceived to be going forward? there's an increasing sense that

nancy pelosi does intend to move forward with the impeachment articles this week but that they may not send them over to the senate right away because mitch mcconnell has essentially made clear that there's no way that he will be able to or be willing to force the levers in such a way that would start the trial before democrats take control of the senate. so, the potential is that trial could be unfolding in the first weeks of the biden administration. the question is, does the president-elect want that to be what they do first. so, they may hold those articles of impeachment in the house until perhaps weeks or months later. but you know, i think it's important to note, there seems to potentially be enough votes in the senate to convict right now, republican votes, at this moment when this is still so fresh. >> wow. >> obviously, political calculations change. but i mean, they need 17 votes, chuck, and there were 92 republicans in the senate who voted to say, no, president-elect biden won this election. >> right. >> so i don't think people are

willing to be extraordinarily out front about that quite yet, and there are a lot of questions about the impeachment process, but i cannot overstate the level of anger amongst senate republicans. >> all right, peggy and jeh, your job here is to answer this question -- what should happen in the next ten days? jeh, you first. >> chuck, first i have to take issue with what senator toomey said about us not seeing this coming. i've written several op eds over the last four years about how president trump's rhetoric makes unacceptable behavior acceptable and violence inevitable. my principal concern right now, chuck, at this moment is the domestic security situation, which is, to say the least, tense, and should be on high alert. i believe what president trump did on wednesday was worse than anything he did around russia, anything he did around ukraine, any phone call he made to the georgia secretary of state. if i were in the house, i would vote to impeach.

if i were in the senate, i would vote to convict. i do, however, question the necessity, given the current climate, of holding that vote over the next week and a half, particularly when mcconnell has said that the trial will not occur until after january 20. i think we need -- i think there are additional considerations here. the goal is to disqualify him from holding federal office, there is precedent for holding such a trial after the person leaves office. >> peggy, what's your prescription? >> my read, quickly, is that we are in a crisis. this coming week could not be more consequential, more weighted with history. i -- from everything i hear, there are still active conversations going in washington with regard to the 25th amendment and whether or not the president should be essentially judged to be

incapacitated. that is amazing enough. or another road, second impeachment. he's already been impeached once. i would take any of the above, because i believe the president should leave. i believe he is a danger. but very quickly, on impeachment, my thoughts are this. first of all, he's dangerous. he should be impeached because he's showing every signs that on the way out he'd like to pull down a few more pillars. we don't know how he's spending his days, who's around him. it doesn't seem to be a lot of people or a lot of first-rate people and real serious counselors, so there's that danger. i think he breached the constitution when his supporters breached the grounds of the capitol, so i think there's just straight-out reason to remove him. i think future presidents may need to know what the exact boundaries are for presidential behavior. wouldn't be bad to show them this week.

i also think, you know, president trump at this point, he simply deserves exceptional dishonor and a second impeachment would be an exceptional dishonor. i hope the republican party does not miss this moment. they should move forward. i think the impeachment should be bipartisan. it will be the only way for it to be really pretty fully accepted but understood and respected by history. both parties said, no more. >> yep. a bipartisan impeachment threat is what got nixon to resign. perhaps, if a bunch of republicans grew some spines in the next 24 hours and they knew it was coming, maybe, just maybe, he would take that route. all right, i'm going to pause right there. when we come back, the ways in which the far right is trying to blame wednesday's violence on the far left.

it's propaganda and a big lie in real time, and that's next. a bin real time, and that's next

welcome back. wednesday's violence was shocking. thousands of pro-trump protesters wearing maga hats or qanon gear storming the capitol, trashing the building and leaving five people dead and many more injured. but even before it was possible to fully take stock of the damage done by the pro-trump mob, the far right propaganda media ecosystem began peddling a counter narrative, that it was

antifa, the antiright wing movement, that sacked the capitol. absurd? yes, of course. harmless? not at all. almost immediately after reports that the capitol had been breached, televangelist mark burns, a longtime trump supporter tweeted, this is not a trump supporter, this is a staged antifa attack. the accompanying photo is of a popular qanon follower, jake angeli, who is known as the q shaman. president trump's son, eric, liked burns' tweet. according to nbc news analysis, there were more posts on social of antifa supporters posing as rioters without any evidence. some had likes and retweets. and from social media, those same talking points migrated to conservative tv talk. >> i think a lot of it is the antifa folks. >> they were likely not all trump supporters and there were some reports that antifa sympathizers may have been

sprinkled throughout the crowd. >> we see serious indications that antifa and outside infiltrators could be involved in all of this. >> and when congress reconvened after the mayhem that night to finish counting the electoral votes, florida republican congressman matt gaetz had the audacity to blame antifa on the house floor. and yet, in truth, the fbi said friday there is no indication antifa took part in any part of the attack. and for days, trump supporters and qanon followers made their january 6th intentions crystal clear. the phony don't blame us narrative is just one of many being given oxygen by a news environment that allows audiences to live in their own alternative reality comfort zones. and this is not happening on the dark web. it is in plain sight, on channels that you and your family interact with every day and, somehow, claim to be fair. when we come back, the

destruction we saw on wednesday was unnerving. was what we saw the beginning or the end? stay with us. what we saw the ber the end? stay with us i feel like we're forgetting something.

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of mo brooks, josh hawley and ted cruz in the united states congress? >> well, chuck, i think it's still an open question. but again, i think that their colleagues felt in a way that they have not experienced before, even after four years of the trump administration. they were personally in danger, and the rhetoric that these, some of their fellow members as well as the president of the united states, offered on wednesday is what led directly to the mob. and it was an extraordinarily close call in the senate, chuck. the doors were shut just one minute, essentially, before the mob reached the doors into the chamber and some of those heroic actions are what protected the place. i think that while many critics will say, of course, it's too little, too late, for the republican party, i think senator toomey reflected the depth of the change that has happened there. and i think, for those of us who

have covered or worked in those hallowed halls for a very, very long time, it's impossible to overstate the degree to which this shook faith in a system that everyone is supposed to be bought into. chuck. >> and that's where i want to go here, guys. is this the beginning of something or the end of something? jeh johnson, i want you to react to something that was written in "the atlantic" on thursday. the "washington post" described the inrecollectionists as would-be saboteurs of a 244-year-old democracy. but true democracy in america is only 55 years old, dating back to 1965, the year the voting rights act guaranteed suffrage, at least on paper, to all citizens, regardless of race. that we've actually had a 55 years, it's been a precarious multiracial democracy in this country. what say you, jeh johnson? >> chuck, of the many images, shocking images, from wednesday, i think the one that most jolted me was the image that was shown earlier on this program of the

confederate flag being paraded through the u.s. capitol. now, i have ancestors. my great-great grandmother's brother fled slavery in virginia when he was a teenager. and here he is. and enlisted in the u.s. union army to prevent exactly that from happening. we fought an entire civil war to prevent that from happening. >> you know, peggy noonan, the amount of anti-semites, racists, that were, frankly, i guess mainstreamed by donald trump over the last few years has rattled a lot of people's concern about whether this democracy is going to hold up. what say you? >> oh, i say america with its barbaric yaup can shock us and upset us very often. we do manage to hold on, and i

expect that will be true. but i think for a lot of people, the indelible image of this week is the idea that the capitol, this great and grand building, the one we put on postcards if you visit washington, d.c., and write home, that it could be overrun by vandals in a moment, that an action could be taken and elected leaders are fleeing for their lives. i think this was shock to so many people, especially to the young, to whom we have to show, we don't allow this. we stop that right now. we stopped it this week. >> i hope so. hallie jackson, what happens to donald trump on january 21st? if he doesn't leave sooner? >> he doesn't go anywhere, chuck. physically, obviously, he's gone from the white house. he'll be, presumably, in florida. but i have to tell you, this is a president who is so defiant.

these calls, these ideas that perhaps he would resign, it is at this exact moment in time almost unthinkable to see how the president would currently retreat in the face of pressure, something he has almost never before done, and certainly not when the stakes are this high. i thought it was interesting that senator toomey on your show earlier described it as not viable that the president could have another shot in 2024. there are people in and around the white house who believe the same, that the president has, in essence, disqualified himself. perhaps he will say that he will run, but there is not a real sense that he could have an actual shot, although, chuck, the people who support him, the people who he has activated, in essence, over the last four years, they are with him until the end. and that group is not going anywhere. the president will take advantage of a media ecosystem -- not mainstream media -- but an ecosystem that will give him oxygen for years to come. >> if that is what happens and this republican party allows donald trump to still be an influential figure, it will end up in the ash bin of history.

that's all for today. thank you for watching. we're going to be back next week. this democracy intact, because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." the fbi's investigating whether any of the agitators, some seen in ballistic vests with zip ties, intended to kidnap or kill legislators or their staffers. >> they were coming to find you, maybe to hurt you, i don't know. >> the evidence is now that it was a well-planned, organized group with leadership and guidance and direction, and the direction was to go get people. they were vocally saying, where's the speaker? we know she has staff. they're here someplace. we're going to find them.