administration. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this monday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. >> sadly, the person running the executive branch is a deranged, unhinged, dangerous president of the united states. and only a number of days until we can be protected from him. but he has done something so serious that there should be prosecution against him. . >> well, i gather that the 25th amendment is off the table? >> it isn't. nothing is off the table. >> nothing is off the table. that includes a second trump impeachment now on the fast track and the house as we get new information and new video from last week's horrendous attack on the capitol. good morning and welcome to "morning joe". it is monday, january 11th. gave days after the attack on the capitol, we continue to learn more about what actually

happened there. remember this video of an officer being chased and attacked and running up the stairs, being chased by pro-trump rioters. we now believe this officer single handedly led the mob away from the senate chambers where the full senate, including the vice president were inside. you can see as they reach the top of the stairs, he looks over. in between those two chairs is the senate chambers. he pushes one of the protesters to get him to follow him away from the door, eventually leading them away from the senate chamber. and here is now video that emerged this past weekend of the chilling events. a warning to our viewers that this video is disturbing.

>> the staff went under the table, turned out the lights and were silent in the dark. >> under the table. >> under the table for two and a half hours. . >> wow. >> during which time they listened to the invaders banging on that door. as you can hear on a recording from one of the staffer's phones. the fbi is investigating whether any of the agitators, some seen in ballistic vests with zip ties, intended to kidnap or kill legislators or their staffers. >> they were coming to find you. maybe to hurt you. i don't know. >> the evidence is now that it was a well-planned, organized group with leadership and guidance and direction. and the direction was to go get

people. they were vocally saying where is the speak senator we know she has staff. we're going to find them. >> let's be very clear about this. this was well organized. it was organized online. there was the goal of killing nancy pelosi. there was the goal of killing mike pence. put that together. you have this mob, or this focusing on decapitating the head of our constitutional government. the goal to kill the number two and the number three leaders. the number two and the three constitutional officers in the united states of america. and it was explicitly stated. we also found out this weekend of course that while donald trump was watching this, he was -- he was curious. he was confused not that all hell was breaking loose at the center of american democracy but

that more people around him weren't as excited as he was at the chaos that was going on. as ben sasse said, all reports from inside the white house, the senator said that donald trump was delighted and excited while he was watching the capitol riot go on. and let's just call this what this is, okay? i said a couple of weeks ago, we need to just start going by definitions. >> there okay. >> all right. let's stop trying to figure out what donald trump is, what his -- he's a fascist. i said that well before this, this happened. he encourages violence. and this is not new. i saw -- i'm not going to even say your name. a rioter i have known for some time and respected. but one rioter said that donald trump turned bad. he turned even darker.

you know, that would be kind of hard for nancy pelosi and other people whose lives have been threatened the past four or five years to decide that donald trump has just turned bad. why don't we talk about what he said during the campaign when he kept talking about violence like a fascist leader does. are ebb in august when he talked about second amendment solutions, that if we wanted to stop hillary clinton from getting elected and from appointing supreme court justices, donald trump said there were many in the crowd that could engage in second amendment solutions. i wrote at the time in the "washington post", 2016, that donald trump had once again crossed a bloody line. and this time there was no coming back from it. that the republicans needed to drop him as their nominee for president before something tragic happened. they continued letting him do this. after charlottesville, talking

about enemies of the people. praising a congressman for beating up a reporter who had just asked a question about health care. constantly glor tpaoeug violence. who does this? who does this? fascists do this. and they have throughout history. read mussolini's biography. what did he do? he would go out and give speeches, and right at the top of anything you read about mousse seen leany, he rose to power by inspiring people to go and attack and invade and to trash government buildings in italy. and this was -- we're going to show you a little bit -- in fact, i don't know if we have it right now. arnold schwarzenegger, born in austria, two years after the end of world war ii, talking about how he grew up with broken men who believed hitler's lies.

it was one lie stacked on top of another lie, stacked on top of another lie. those men believed those lies. they, and austria and germany paid the ultimate price for it. here's governor schwarzenegger. >> i grew up in austria. i'm very aware of crystal nacht. or the night of the broken glass. it was a night of rampage against the jews carter out in 1938 by the nazi equivalent of the proud boys. wednesday was the day of broken glass right here in the united states. so being from europe, i've seen firsthand how things can spin out of control. i know there is a fear in this country and all over the world. that something like this could happen right here. our democracy has been tamp tempered by wars, justices,

insurrections. i believe as shaken as we are in recent days we will come out stronger because we now understand what can be lost. >> we do understand that. but as governor schwarzenegger said, we now know, as we always have known, who donald trump is. he has revealed himself. and he will be driven from the public square. he will lose relevance. he will be chased by prosecutors for the rest of his life. . >> so far the tech community and the golf community has chased him away. we will see what the actual notice of our country does. >> but the question is what about kevin mccarthy? a guy who actually inspired these traitors with his sedi sedicious words.

debasing that. wrestled with him as a coach when he was in college, whether he deserves anything. you look at josh hawley. you look at ted cruz, who just a few days before this act shouted, we are not going to go quietly. donald trump talking about we have to be strong. we can't be weak. march up to the capitol. don jr. talking about we're coming to get you. we're coming to get you, and it's going to be fun. rudy giuliani talking about combat justice. combat justice. and there are some sad, pathetic human beings who continue to lie to you on other cable news networks. trying to convince you that all

of those red hats, all of those red hats, the members of antifa. the largest gathering of antifa in american history in all of those red hats. i didn't know trumpers -- law enforcement officers are saying to the people that they are arresting, most of the people you have seen on your television screen last week, they have deep ties in the trump community. no, this is the face of donald trump. this is the natural conclusion in donald trump. in december 2015 when we sat on this show, when he tried to push a muslim ban, where does this end? is this nazi, germany? is this skwrer family 1933. here we are.

he has been been begging supporters to engage in violence against the media. and here we see them engaging in violence against the media. like donald trump has been asking them to do for five years. engaging in violence against his political opponents. and going to kill nancy pelosi and going to kill mike pence, a guy who still, i don't think, has heard from the president of the united states. this is what every tech company, this is what facebook should have known was going to happen. this is on them. this is what twitter should have known was going to happen. this is on them. this is on every media company that has promoted his hate speech. every media company, new media company that has pushed every tweet out to 60 million people. it's on all of us. it's on all of us. but it's especially on facebook,

twitter, now parler and all of those companies that allowed these conspiracy theories to spread, to spread like weeds. >> like a vicious cancer. >> well, like a vicious cancer across the american political system. and my friends, and some of your friends, they believe the lies. why? because they wake up in the morning and turn on facebook. they wake up in the morning and they look at their twitter feed. they wake up in the morning and they look at some crank pot on some cable news channel who is spreading the lies from parler, facebook, or twitter. and that is their reality. they've put down their bibles, right? they don't read their bibles anymore. they now read facebook. they don't worship jesus christ anymore. you can tell by their actions.

jesus said judge a tree by its fruits. look at those images. and they worship donald trump. and their bible is now what they read in the conspiracy theories on facebook and on twitter. mika, everybody begged facebook and twitter for five years to control this man. they didn't do it. this is what happened. this is what happened, mark zuckerberg. this is what happened, sheryl sandberg. i hope your billions were worth it. jack, i hope wherever you're crossing your legs and doing yoga and taking an ice bath or a mud bath, i hope it was worth it. because the blood of these capitol hill cops, these deaths are on donald trump. these deaths are on josh hawley. these deaths are on ted cruz.

these deaths, that screaming, that pain, all of that is on you. it's on the top republican and the house of representatives who continues. now -- now he's saying, let's just put this all behind us. let's put this all behind us and come together. no. no. i understand it may be hard for some republicans on capitol hill to understand this, but justice under the law comes first. and then reconciliation. >> let's bring in former u.s. attorney, now nbc news law enforcement analyst, chuck rosenberg. former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and msnbc legal analyst. and covering national security and intelligence ken delaney. a.p. jonathan la mere and caska

hunt as well >> what do we have as far as responsibility for the rioters, for people like rudy giuliani inciting them, talking about marching up to the hill and engaging in combat justice, don jr. saying we're coming after you if you don't support my daddy. we're coming after you and it's going to be fun. >> you know, joe, i think there's a lot of people who can be charged. and i understand the desire for swift justice. there is a second value that is important, too, thorough justice. meaning as quickly as we want to move because these people are dangerous, vial, and criminals, we also want to make sure that we understand all of what happened. who said what. one of the hardest things, and i know joyce knows this is to prove intent in any criminal case. twitter, facebook, the platforms these criminals use to advance their cause will also be a

terrific source of evidence for prosecutors and investigators. as quickly as i hope we move, we also need to make sure we get the right people for the right crimes in the right way. if that takes a little more time, i'm okay with that. justice needs to come down very hard on what happened. i want was not just a crime but a riot. not just a riot but an insurrection. so doing it right and doing it quickly is of value here, joe. . >> well, the hard thing, chuck, as you say, is to prove intent. i wonder how many people, joyce vance, will say the reason they stormed the capitol was to answer to donald trump and to answer to the calls of these people. take a look. >> we will not go quietly into the night. >> we need to march on the capitol today. >> we are going to take our country back. >> we're coming for you and we're going to have a good time doing it.

>> so, let's have trial by combat. >> you'll never take back our country with weakness. you have to show strength. >> we're going walk down, and i'll be there with you. we're going to walk down to the capitol. . >> so, joyce, those people then went straight to the capitol and stormed it, rioted it, ransacked it, vandalized it, killed people and stole things. is it going to be really that hard to prove intent. what are the challenges moving ahead for accountability? >> this is such an unprecedented situation. it is so difficult because we all know that in the court of public opinion it's a rare instance where the public watched the potential crimes in progress. we know what happened. we know there was in essence an effort to light a fire and that fire caught and ended up on capitol hill. and the cut to the chase question, mika, is whether

people who spoke to the crowd and encouraged them, are they legally responsible for all of the consequences? and as chuck says, that comes down to the issue of intent. i think this sounds a little bit cold and sticky when we are thinking about wednesday's events. it seems so obvious that people should be held accountable. there is no doubt in a political and human sense we know those words have meaning. just like we watched the president talk in advance of the efforts to kidnap governor whitmer in michigan. his words had meaning. the question is whether investigators will be able to prove, really to jump into the minds of these people who spoke wednesday and determine was there intent to impose violence on the capitol? and here i think is the most important question. there seems to be little doubt in my mind that the intent was to stop or interfere with the

finalization of the electoral college vote for joe biden. and if in fact, evidence develops that a group conspired to prevent that from happening, that will be the most important area for investigators to push on. like chuck says, we need to know what the ongoing risks are, who was involved, what they had planned and hold them all accountable. >> we know the clear purpose was, ken, to interfere with a constitutional requirement of counting the electoral votes. we know that donald trump had circled that date, along with his golf caddy and put out videos for weeks saying circle the date, january the 6th. it's going to be wild. they wanted to interrupt the vote count. they incited those people. they did interrupt the vote count. it's interesting, ken, after the dust settled, you had capitol

hill cops and others saying, oh, we never saw this coming. we have found out now that was a lie. the "new york times" laid out several things this morning. but you were reporting this weekend that they -- the capitol hill police were getting warnings from a variety of sources, some were even outsiev state. . >> that's right, joe. and it wasn't just the capitol police. in the 48 hours after this happened, a number of officials said, including the head of the fbi's washington field office on friday said we had no indication this would be anything other than a peaceful protest. the d.c. police chief said thursday we had no intelligence that anyone was going to storm the capitol. well, nbc news reported last week about postings talking about a conspiracy to occupy the capitol. it was obvious to all of us that wasn't true. the things those people were saying was not accurate.

finally over the weekend, a senior fbi official told us in fact, the fbi did know there were people planning violence. in fact, some fbi agents actually reached out to some extremists who were on their radar. they call it a knock and talk. they went and visited some of these people they thought were traveling to d.c. they said if you do this, we're going to arrest you. that raises the question, why didn't you make sure the capitol was defended. the capitol police is taking a lot of blame for the security failure. they did not have a defensive perimeter. they did not have officers in riot gear. but the capitol police is not responsible for stopping domestic terrorism acts in the united states. the fbi is. why didn't the fbi disrupt this? they are telling us now they had no intelligence about an organized plot. as you said, the "new york

times" is reporting there was lots of conspiracy talk on social media. that's raising questions about, did the fbi see this? if not, why not? and i'm glad we have joyce and chuck here. we can talk about this issue of there's no domestic terrorism law. does that con train the fbi from looking at certain social media postings? clearly it doesn't when people are openly calling for violence. but the failure is a collective failure and collective government failure not just a capitol police force of 2,000 people. there's plenty of blame to go around there, joe. >> i mean, we count on the fbi to scour every corner of the internet. and any information that they can get to protect us against al qaeda, attacks from isis. and they've got rednecks on parler, on facebook and on twitter saying we're coming to

kill. mike pence, we're coming to kill. nancy pelosi. and the fbi can't figure that out? i don't buy it. and fbi leadership needs to come to the hill and explain why they had the wherewithal to go out and warn people not to be part of the mall that was going to ransack the capitol. but they couldn't get think day or two ahead of time to actually protect the perimeter of the capitol. jonathan, during the attack, we kept asking where donald trump was. why donald trump wasn't saying anything about this attack. capitol hill policeman being murdered. other people dying in the crowd. well, ben sasse gave us the reason why in a radio interview over the weekend. take a listen. >> i think donald trump wanted there to be massive division and he was telling people there was a path by which he was going to

stay in office after january 20th. that was never true. and he wanted chaos on television. as this was unfolding on television, donald trump was walking around the white house confused about why other people on his team weren't as excited as he was as you had rioters pushing against capitol police, trying to get into the building. as that's happening, he was delighted. >> and then we know he didn't even call pence. what is the situation between trump and pence right now? what if this wasn't the president? wouldn't these people all be in custody? >> senator sasse's reporting lines up with ours. he spoke at the rally that fueled the violence at the capitol. he indeed returned to the white house after saying he would join the protesters. he returned to the white house and watched the events unfold on tv in his private dining room off the oval office. while there, the phone calls he made were not to the vice

president. they were not to call in for security but rather to senators lee and tuberville, pushing for their support at his efforts to overturn the electoral college. we have report thad and others the last few days. that was his primary concern. he was independent wondering why others on his staff didn't think this was a good move, a good development for him. he had to be pushed that afternoon to release that video. he ad libbed that he loved the rioters and he was with them in spirit. the next day he had to be pushed by aides to do that heavily edited, heavily scripted video in which he finally acknowledged his defeat in the election and condemned that violence. he and the vice president have not spoken since wednesday. president trump has not checked on the vice president. our reporting the vice president is furious with the president and wondering how his loyalty

could be repaid like this while trump of course is still holding a grudge that the vice president didn't try to decertify joe biden's victory. the vice president couldn't do. we know that it took until yesterday. i'll say that again. it took until yesterday for the white house to lower its flag at half-staff for the police officer who died in this riot. this is a president who showed no effort to condemn the violence outside that one taped video. no effort to tell supporters to not do this again. there are warnings of future attacks, perhaps even at the inauguration. his focus right now is still believing he won this election despite what he said publicly and being furious he can no longer tweet about it. >> and refusing day after day to lower the flags over the white

house for the capitol hill cop who was murdered by his supporters. let me say it again. the capitol hill cop who was murdered by his supporters. and so here we have a politician, demagogue, fascist, who went around for the past four years talking about law and order. and he inspired his followers to go up to the center of american democracy, commit a riot, murder police officers, then refuse to lower the flag because he's angry they were actually doing their job. speaking of that, angry, so angry that he encouraged the mob to go after mike pence. they were going on the hill to murder mike pence. and while that was going on, donald trump didn't call mike pence to see how he was doing. while mike pence's life was in

danger, he wasn't telling the mop to back off. no. he was, again, senator ben sasse said he was delighted by the violence. just like mussolini or hitler would be. he was delighted by the attacks against the law enforcement officers who were defending america's capitol. by the way, i heard over the end of last week, just absolute horrible arguments for how this was just like the summer. oh, well, these leftists didn't care about convenience stores that were being looked. you're really going to compare a convenience store being looted -- >> no. >> -- to the center of american democracy being stormed and the second and the third ranking members being targeted for murder? i think if you loot a convenience store, you should go

to jail. i think that's a crime. i think if you break into the united states capitol seeking to kill members of congress and the top-ranking americans, that's treason. all right. you need to be arrested for both. and those arrests need to start at the top with donald trump. but, mika, mike pence has a reason to be angry. donald trump inspired all of those people to go up and go after mike pence, which is why we have video of people going through the hall, where's pence? where's pence? while the president saw that on television and knew mike pence's life was in danger, he was calling senators trying to use this violence to lobby them to vote to overturn an election where 140 million people voted. >> so keep this video up.

because i would like to ask kasie hunt about it in terms of where republicans stand on capitol hill. we understand that a vote for impeachment is being worked up. i guess there was no word on the 25th amendment being invoked. we will put that aside for a second. dare i play the game. what if this were a democrat. we wouldn't even be here right now. this wasn't a democrat. this was donald trump, who plays to be a republican president, who is a fascist, who is now head of a terrorist whatever this is. >> it is a terrorist organization. >> who is your president. so i'd like to know what republicans still plan to vote for this. >> look at the american flag. guys were using the american flag to beat somebody. it's dragging on the floor. i thought that was -- colin kaepernick, didn't he disrespect the flag by kneeling?

it is a sacred thing. but they're using an american flag to beat police officers and beat people on the ground. >> so what republicans, kasie hunt, plan to vote against impeachment of a president who incites this? who is going to stay on this side of history and have this on their legacy for the rest of their lives and for decades to come? >> probably moreirense in the house than you might think watching this horrible video. now, the one thing i will say, mika, is there was at least one member who voted to overturn the electoral results, not because they believed joe biden hadn't won the election but they had seen what happened and they were afraid for the personal safety and the safety of their family. if they voted against president

trump, something terrible would come and happen to them. and while i'm not trying to excuse anyone who voted to overturn the election results, i think that underscores the degree of danger that we are all in as a country right now. that people are so afraid that it's actually affecting the decisions that are being made in a place that was just overrun by a violent mob. now, there are still a lot of questions about what's going to happen over the course of the next week. mitch mcconnell is essentially saying the process, well, i can't speed it up. it's going to be slow enough it will be chuck schumer and president biden once he is sworn in. i can tell you, yes, we have talked a lot about private conversations. but pat toomey said the president needs to resign.

ben sasse said you send me articles of impeachment, i will take a look at it. this is a situation that is growing more and more i think dire by the day. i mean, sometimes something happens and the politics trend toward calm. okay, well, we got through this tough moment. now we will all retreat to our corners and the normality of whatever usually drives people's decisionmaking comes to the forefront. that i do not believe is what is happening here. we are reporting this out. it is a fast-moving thing. these videos that came out over the weekend are terrifying. joe was saying that the president of the united states, then you have mike pence, nancy pelosi and chuck grassley, the next three people supposed to lead our country in that building with the president of the united states sending people

down there saying, hang mike pence. saying, where's nancy? we narrowly avoided something far, far worse. the other thing i would say too we saw initial videos. when you add were context to especially what that one officer did. history is going to remember his name. we're not going to say it on the air this morning. he stood in front of that man, an african-american police officers, those of us who work in the capitol have said hello to him a thousand times. he's a lovely man. he was all by himself in the hall way. if you look at that video, maybe it looks like he's running away. he looked to his left. he saw the doors to the senate chamber. the doors to the senate chamber were unguarded. we later learned they were actually still unlocked when this happened. so he looks to his left. he sees that. he looks at the mop in front of

him. he shoves one of the protesters knowing angering them will get them to focus on him. he runs the other way and takes the mob with him. we were a minute away from these protesters getting onto the floor of the united states senate and doing god knows what to the heart of our democracy. that is how close we came. and just let me tell you, you know, like i said, we're still reporting out. we don't know what's going to happen in terms of process. we don't know what's going to happen to president trump. but if you are one of the members of the senate, you know now, even more than you know wednesday, just how close you came to something really, really terrible. >> as he goes upstairs, he has moved them away. he's moving them away from the senate. >> oh. right there. looks down there.

starts to block him. >> gets them mad. >> gets them to follow him. moving that mob. all of them should be in jail for as long as you can put them in jail. >> geez. >> and move them away from not only the entrance to the senate chamber but where he gets back up. so, chuck, what are the mechanics of impeachment even after a president leaves office? i'm thinking that the house of representatives are going to most likely vote to impeach the president this week. it's going to be interesting to see what republicans will remain on the president's side. but i know they will. then what are the mechanics as it goes to the senate in the new term after joe biden is already president?

>> yeah. that's a great question, joe. and i think it's an interesting answer. so the constitution is silent on whether you still have to be in office whether you have to be impeeved. logically, you would think you would. we have historical precedent. in 1876, euless ease s. grant was president and bell nap was doing all sorts of awful things, including taking money, living a lavish lifestyle for a guy on a small government salary. he was about to be impeached when he resigned as secretary of war. they went ahead and impeached him. he was tried in the senate, out of office. i believe the senate acquitted. but nevertheless, this bellknapp chapter from our history tells us that trump can be impeached and can be tried in the senate even after he leaves office. and here's why. there is a second penalty that a

lot of people don't think about all the time. we know if you're convicted in the senate, having been impeached from the senate, you are removed from office. but a second penalty can be levied, to forever bar anyone from ever holding office again. and if you could defeat that simply by resigning you would make the whole thing a nullity. and that doesn't make sense. to your question, joe, trump can be impeached in the house, convicted in the senate, if you have enough votes, and he can be barred subsequently from ever holding office again, federal office, if the senate so decides. and so you can be impeached and convicted, in my view, after you leave office. not only that, i think it's appropriate. pause we have to condemn in the strongest possible terms what happened and what the president did. and one way of condemning it of course is the criminal justice

process. with he talked about that earlier. another way of condemning it is impeaching this man, making him the first person to be impeached twice. i hope they convict him and bar him forever from holding federal office. >> what are you working on? extraordinarily busy week. i know you really dig in. what are you digging into this week? >> well, joe, while we've been talking, joe biden has selected william burns to be his next sraeu director. so that's something i'm going to be spending time on, digging into. but in terms of what we are talking about in terms of this riot, this insurrection, there is a lot of questions about what the fbi, department of homeland security, even the pentagon had gathered. what signs and indications there were that there was violence, there was a conspiracy, that people were talking and

traveling and had flex cuffs and weapons and did not pass that onto the capitol police, to d.c. police. that is still an open question. an unknown here. why there was no intelligence. these agencies put out intelligence bulletins for almost everything. as each day goes by, we see more and more information on social media in the weeks and days before the event to show how they wanted to do harm. this was a domestic terrorism plot. had this been an al qaeda plot, first of all, i don't think they would have gone past their home airports. secondly, if they had succeeded, we would all be asking why the fbi missed it. so i think we should ask the same questions here. >> couldn't agree more. joyce vance, the most pressing

question outside, how much will alabama beat ohio state? >> i think alabama will crush and it will be a roll tide. >> i think it's going to be a good game. i'm looking forward to it. going to be exciting tone. joyce, thank you so much. we always appreciate it. ken, thank you so much. our next guest says it's going to be a truth reckoning for all those who stood by and defended the president while he lied to americans. editor of forbes joins with us his latest piece. and u.s. national editor at the financial times joins us as well. randa randall, there are certain patriots who were concerned about going into the administration. and i speak of people like

general mattis, general henry mcmaster. you could go down the list. quite a few very talented people who followed the advice of people like dr. brzezinski and bob gates who said to me and others, we only have one president at a time. general hayden said this time and again. we have to do everything we can to make this president succeed. that's not who you are talking about in this article, are you? . >> no. i was talking to the torch press officers, the people paid by the people to communicate to the people. because what you guys have been talking about the last 30 minutes, the atrocities of wednesday, that foundation was not built on bad actors or emotion. it was built on lies. it was built on five years of a pattern of lying. and the last few months the idea, again, the election -- the

idea that a loss was actually a landslide victory. and if we're going to go forward, if we're going -- again, we are calling truth reckoning. if we have a national reset we have to understand there have to be standards of truth. as moynahan famously said. everyone is entitled to their own opinions. that's what makes america great. but we have to agree on basic facts. >> moving forward on this narrative, this would be a large swath of people who would have to be held accountable, who promulgated trump's lies. >> yes, it would. by the way, i would just like to applaud this initiative by randall. i think it's exactly the kind of steely, robust consequence imposing that is needed if the system is to defend itself.

and if the system is to emerge from this unprecedented crisis intact. individuals who had been there aiding, abetting and disseminating very dark propaganda as though we live in an autocracy. the white house the last four years has not been the white house system of a democracy. it's not how they behave, to blast out propaganda and lies. those who are now claiming they are either knew all along but were just restraining the president or else somebody worse would have been in their place. they weren't really there. they were just sort of passing through. they cannot be allowed to get away with rigging off their accountability for this very, very dark propaganda stick, this

flood that so many americans have been subjected to and clearly believe. it's got to be a time of consequences. so i applaud this initiative. this is how liberal democracy defends itself. >> we have a question for you. jonathan. >> we saw the video a short time ago about the capitol police officer's heroism. there have been really harrowing images too graphic to show on television. one had to discharge his weapon, striking someone as a group of rioters were this close to breaking down a door where lawmakers were on the other side. it seems each day we get from this tragedy, it gets worse. as the consequences get more real, some corporations are stepping away from this saying they won't donate to political figures, republicans, who have

tried to claim the election results were not real. marriott, others, saying they will no longer work with these leaders who said joe biden didn't win, who supported this effort. how far do you think this will go? what new chapter potentially will they be facing? or is this something where d.c. in a few months will be back to business as usual? >> this is a marketplace of ideas. when you have private were compani companies. our product is reliable information. we are not talking about every trump official we are talking about top press secretaries. sean spicers telling us that is the biggest crowd ever. kelly an conway. huckabee sanders.

kayleigh mcenany. every time she opens her mouth. not every time but. people who are paid by the government and telling things that are not true, we put out a product of reliable information wherever they go. again, anybody, you know, this is not cancel culture. there is free work wherever they are. i wish them luck b. but they show they cannot be trusted for private companies to take the information they give. it is putting folks on notice, we are a private company. we believe in truth. the entire country needs a regimen where we agree on facts. and people who don't respect that need to understand that's how it will be going forward. . >> you know your industry much better than i do.

during the rise of hitler -- by the way, we can draw the analogies. as far as we can talk about this being 1933. we can do that. a lot of businesses, german corporations saw hitler as a clown. they backed him because they thought he was going to be a bulwark against communism, against the rise of communism against europe. we saw a lot of businesses, ceos, a lot of the world's richest people, a lot of america's richest people back donald trump. and back him because it was good for their bottom line. i'm wondering whether the business community, whether these richest americans, whether the chamber of commerce, whether

others are going to step up and actually condemn this fascism, condemn this fascist violence and actually hold accountable those who tried to subvert american democracy by spreading lies that every business leader knows was a lie and knows inspired these riots. and if you're josh hawley, still spread these lies after a capitol hill police officer and others were killed. >> you would very much hope so. what big business in germany thought in the 30s, that they could control hitler, he would not get out of hand. hitler in office would be less dangerous than hitler on the streets. the difference is they wanted hitler to crush the bull she

vix, the communists. they wanted the tax cut and the deconstruction of the administrative state, the deregulations. they got that. trump was still trump. all the stuff we are seeing today is a very predictable combination of what trump has always been. we are seeing from some businesses like marriott hotels move to say, look, we're not going to fund those 4,700 republicans. after all of these horrific scenes and this near miss of something far worse might have happened last wednesday, after that still went ahead and voted for a hugely propaganda stick piece of an attempt to overturn the election. kellyanne conway said the facts are out. it's very clear what's happened.

it is unacceptable in any democracy. she doesn't on this occasion have alternative facts. she's just accepted reality. i think we welcome that. we should wonder why there have been alternative facts on all the latter, all the things leading up to this point. why it's now that the propaganda is seen for what it is. >> you know, i, again, have said this, as a baptist, i'm all for death bed conversions. there are, though, those people still in the house of representatives, randall, who, even after the riots, were still spewing these lies. and, you know, we have political questions. i'm a conservative who has been focused on the dangers of donald trump, the dangers of a fascist president.

i guarantee you i can get a democrat to come on. and we would be tearing each other up over political questions. because people of good faith can have debates on war, on peace, on tax cuts, on tax increases, on the regulatory state, on a thousand different things. but, as you said, quoting senator moynahan, people are not entitled -- people are entitled to their own opinions but not entitled to their own facts. what makes it so damning is they know they are propagating a lie. how do they know that? because they know. many of them lawyers. that in the united states of america, we are a nation of laws. and every court has struck down every one of these claims.

every single court has struck down every one of these preposterous claims. there's not one trump-appointed judge, not one trump-appointed justice on the supreme court that has supported the lie that there was somehow widespread fraud on election day. yet these members of congress cynically inspire this insurrection with their vote. and josh hawley, he just can't stop himself. . >> part of what's going on, the reason all of these lawsuits were thrown out is because while rudy giuliani and trump's legal team lie in public wholesale when they go to court because there's content. they can be disbarred. all of a sudden they don't put those arguments in the legal filings because there's nothing there. that's what we need is a reset where we need some kind of standard if we're going to go

forward as a country, a fact swal standard, some kind of accountability that you can't lie to the public. they don't lie to the court. what's going on and the real issue going forward because donald trump will only be president for another eightish days is while donald trump -- at forbes we have chronicled this almost 40 years. donald trump lies. he is a reflexive liar. that's how he's wired. but the people under him and the people in congress, they know that. and yet in repeating the lie in some ways, that's where the real danger is because these are people who know better. donald trump, that's been part of his success. and this barn am-like ability to true believe it in his soul. when his system embraces the idea when they know better,

that's when we have a real societal problem. >> randall lane, thank you very much. ed loose, thank you as well. still ahead on "morning joe", we'll be joined by democratic congressman and form other army ranger jason crow, who compared last week's capitol riots to being in afghanistan again. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back. >> president trump is a failed leader. he will go down in history as the worst president ever. the good thing is he soon will be as irrelevant as an old tweet. but what do we make of those elected officials who have enabled his lies and his treachery? i will remind them of what teddy roosevelt said, patriotism means to stand by the country. it does not mean to stand by the president. and john f. kennedy wrote a book called "profiles in courage."

a number of members of my own party, because of their own spinelessness, will never see their name in such a book, i guarantee you. those who carried the flag of self-righteous insurrection into the capitol. but it did not work. our democracy held firm. within hours the senate and the house of the representatives were doing the people's business and certifying the election of president-elect biden. what a great display of democracy. and to those who think they can overturn the united states constitution, know this, you will never win. president-elect biden, we stand with you today, tomorrow, and forever in defense of our democracy from those who would threaten it. may god bless all of you and may god bless america. i have an idea for a trade. oh yeah, you going to place it? not until i'm sure. why don't you call td ameritrade for a strategy gut check?

what's that? you run it by an expert, you talk about the risk and potential profit and loss. could've used that before i hired my interior decorator. voila! maybe a couple throw pillows would help. get a strategy gut check from our trade desk. ♪ i feel like we're forglet me check.ing. xfinity home gives you peace of mind from anywhere with professionally monitored home security built around you. no, i think we're good. good. so when you're away, you don't have to worry. the tent. we forgot... the tent. except about that. xfinity home. simple. easy. awesome. hey look, i found the tent! get xfinity home with no term contract required. click or call today.

we might be able to get this. we need to acknowledge it's not working, hit the reset and adopt a new strategy and get it out to patients. >> so while donald trump and his supporters tried to take over the united states government and kill the vice president and kill the speaker of the house, we had some other things going on. >> just a few. >> former fda commissioner and member of pfizer's board dr. scott gottlieb acknowledging yesterday that the vaccine rollout is not working. the country needs to hit the reset button. meanwhile, the u.s. broke a single-day record for new coronavirus cases twice over this past week as the struggle to contain the virus continues.

on saturday, the nation reported over 278,000 new cases, which broke the record set the day prior of 269,000 new cases. right now the u.s. has reported more than 22 million cases in nearly 375,000 deaths. >> we're moving up to 400,000 deaths. it's hard to see how we don't reach half a million deaths in america. >> and then there was friday's terrible jobs report. joining us now, former treasury official steve ratner. steve, first, explain how much this vaccine bad news will impact the economy moving forward. . >> some well, mika, as i will show you in a second, they are completely inter connected. we have an economic crisis but it is a public health crisis driving the economic crisis. so the slower the vaccine

rollout works, the worse the economic crisis will be and the longer it will persist. >> so i know you have charts to go through. we had a jobs report, a couple of them have just been painful and brutal. as we look ahead as the health crisis persists, where are these numbers headed? >> as i said, they are completely inter connected. i will show you how that works. first of all, as you said, it was a terrible jobs number last friday. we were expected a gain of about 75,000 jobs. we actually lost 140,000 jobs. and even worse you can see the trajectory of what's been happening. we had the huge downturn in the spring. 20 million jobs lost in a single month. we began to recover. things were looking promising. starting after june, every month the number of jobs added was lower than the number before. and now we have an actual

negative number. 22 lost at the beginning. and so only 56% have been recovered. and i would throw out this fact that trump is now going to leave office having lost job during his four-year term, the first president since herbert hoover to lose jobs in a four-year turn. last month we lost 372,000 jobs in food services, bars, restaurants, things like that. that is more, more than 2.5 times the 140,000 jobs we lost across the whole economy, which meant way more than 100% of job losses were in this sector for obvious reasons. equally obviously we lost almost

100,000 in amusement, gambling sporting. this includes gyms. universities had to cut back because of their issues. local government is starting to cut back. 32,000 jobs. on the plus side, you see some categories added. housing is doing well. people are adding to their houses. hard to get a plumber or electrician these days. couriers and messengers. and general merchandise stores like target and walmart. and employment agencies, temporary workers and things like that. if you turn to the last chart, you can see how it all ties together. what's been happening is because of the virus people have become less mobile. a combination of state and local restrictions. and their own good sense. this shows the huge downturn in mobility. down 25% in terms of the amount

of time people spend away from their houses. it climbed back during the spring and got to within 7% of where we were when the pandemic started. you can see now it is almost falling off a cliff. it is down 16%. so when people can't move or don't feel comfortable moving or told not to move, they don't spend. that does not bode well for january's jobs numbers. >> yeah. you look at these numbers. absolute spike of i think my friends who told me covid was going to magically disappear november 3rd after the election. this was also a conspiracy. it is that sort of backward thinking. that sort of medieval thinking that wrecked the economy once again and continues to kill people. steve, you brought up a point we have been saying since march, which is this is a health care

crisis first. then it's an economic crisis. then it's a political crisis. and said to donald trump repeatedly in march, if you take care of the health care crisis, the economic crisis and the political crisis will take care of itself. he just couldn't do it. so now we look to 2021. most of the business owners i talk to, a lot of people people i i talked to believe it would be back to normal, until they realized how badly botched the rollout was. by the end of second quarter, june, early july. what are your thoughts about when we can really expect the economy to start ramping up again. >> joe, as you said, it's a public health crisis that led to an economic crisis. and so in a sense i could tell you if you tell me when the public health crisis will end i will tell you when the economic

crisis will end. you have to reopen theaters, gyms, bars and restaurants safely, when it's time to be safe. then and only then are with he going to get back to anything that looks like a normal economy. and i would also say it is always harder on the way back up than on the way down. the last 10% or 20% of economic activity is going to be hard to restore. there will be permanent cutbacks in some areas. people who have been out of work for a long time tend to never go back. i think we are looking at fall for something that looks normal. and a tail of recovery behind that. joe biden will come out this week with his next stimulus and recovery package. we have money in the system. people have been saving a lot of money. they can spend it once they can get out. we need to target the people who are worse affected.

the small business owners i just showed you. the unemployed. state and local governments. that's where the aid should be going. >> steve rattner, thank you very much for being on this morning. we're going to turn back now to the new details we're learning about last week's attack on the capitol. every new piece of video seems to be even more stkpudisturbing. we believe this officer was single handedly leading the mob away from the senate chambers where the full senate, including the vice president were inside. you can see as they reach the top of the stairs he looks over. in between those two chairs right there is the senate chambers. then he pushes one of the protesters to get him angry, to get him to follow away from the doors, eventually leading them away from the senate chamber. here is speaker pelosi describing the events on the house side. >> the staff went under the

table, barricaded the door, turned out the lights and were silent in the dark. >> under the table. >> under the table for two and a half hours. >> wow. during which time they listened to the invaders banging on that door. as you can hear on a recording from one of the staffer's phones. the fbi is investigating whether any of the agitators, some seen in ballistic desks with zip ties, intended to kidnap or kill legislators or their staffers. >> erp they are coming to find you. maybe to hurt you. i don't know. >> the evidence is now that it was a well-planned, organized group with leadership and guidance and direction. and the direction was to go get people. >> vocally saying where is the speaker. we know she's here place.

we're going to find them. >> let's be clear, and this is how clearly every american would see it if these had been a group of muslims that had done this. we would be talking about terrorism because it is terrorism. and they would be talking about the fact that they were trying to decapitate the federal government and make donald trump its supreme leader pause mike pence, the number two ranking constitutional officer was targeted for assassination. and nancy pelosi was being targeted for assassination. just like they were going to do the same to governor whitmer in michigan. they were going to arrest her, cuff her, try her, and kill her. so that's what we have here. i've got to say for federal agencies i'm a little confused. and i'm wondering does the next

congress need to draft a law that says we have one set of standards for white people, one set of standards for black people, one set of standards for people who are from the middle east, that are muslims. that wear muslim garb. because we sure as hell know how the fbi would be reacting if this were an islamic attack against the capital of the united states of america. we know if there had been a targeting to assassinate the vice president and the speaker of the house, the number two and number three leaders. >> this is as serious as it gets. >> you know, the media is talking about this.

forgive me for reading how the media coverage of how federal agencies are covering this and not being impressed. there needs to be a national manhunt. they need to drag these -- find every one of them. and while they're at it, we need federal prosecutors to explain why a man talking about combat justice into a microphone an hour or so before combat justice is being applied or while another speaker who says vote with my father or we are coming to get you. and it's going to be fun.

please, let me understand why those people have not already been cuffed, arrested, fingerprinted and put in jail. because if they had been muslims saying that, i know they would be in jail. in fact, you would lock them away probably not see them again for quite some time. you would have them in court hearing, you would have them in chains, the judge would refuse to release them on pail, and they would go back in and be tried. maybe waterboarded for good measure. so i think we need to see a little more urgency. i want to know where rudy giuliani is right now, fbi. what about don jr.? why are they still walking around, federal prosecutors? what's going on, fbi? what's going on? we know everybody screwed up on

this. very perfectly clear you all screwed up once already. if you don't make an example of these traitors, if you don't arrest the insurrectionists, if you don't show strength as donald trump said. they're not rioting. strength under the law. this is going to happen again. it's happened on the left throughout history with extremists on the left. strength is usually shown against the left. certainly was during the '60s. but it's happening on the right. i'm sorry, i'm not impressed. i don't think many americans are impressed, mika, by the fact

that the people that started this riot, the people responsible for this riot, this insurrection, for this treason, are still just walking around. haven't even been brought in to be questioned. >> jonathan is still with us and joining the discussion we have is mike barnicle for pbs news hour a mischa. alcindor. and former secretary of homeland security under president obama jeh johnson. let's start there. jeh johnson, i know you have a tight window here. where do we go from here. why haven't there been swifter action? i know arrests have been taken place as people are being identified, people who stormed the capital. what about people who planned it, who organized it and who were standing on stage,

including the president of the united states making sure it happened. >> mika, it's a federal offense to incite a riot. in my judgment, what donald trump did on this past wednesday is worse than ukraine. it's more than anything he did around russia. it's worse than the phone calls he made to the georgia secretary of state. if i were in the house, i would vote to impeach. if i were in the senate, i would vote to convict. i believe that there are going to be a lot more arrests made. i believe that as the u.s. attorney and washington digs into this further, we're going to see a lot more arrests, a lot more indictments. the photographs of these people are out there. you can run, but you can't hide. and i do have to add something. joe, all day long wednesday i was getting phone calls from family members. uncle jeh, cousin jeh, dad,

suppose they had been black people, what would have happened? >> yeah. >> any american who has been awake the last 12 months would have known what would have happened here. and the very same elements of donald trump's base would have been shouting law and order in the streets and the looting starts, the shooting starts. one of the many cruel ironies of last week's events. >> yeah. you know, jeh, i said it the morning after. if it had been black people charging the capitol, they would have been shot in the face. every one of them. they would have aimed to kill. and they would -- there would have been an absolute massacre. if it had been were muslims coming in, they would have been gunned down. they would have been sniped from above. it never would have happened. so, jeh, we have some of donald trump's supporters who of course rioted and killed police

officers. we now have some of donald trump's supporters now talking about coming up the 17th, trying to lay siege of the united states capitol again on the 17th. we have others talking about committing acts of treason on january the 20th. launching another insurrection. what do our law enforcement agencies have to do? what do our federal agencies have to do to make sure that lawmakers, members of the biden administration and americans that want to celebrate an inauguration can do so safely? >> joe, it is called n.s.s.e. national special security event. we actually know how to do this. when i was in office, i had a responsibility for the 2017 inauguration, three state of the unions, three u.n. general

assemblies, one papal visit. once you designate an n.s.s.e., thousands and thousands of law enforcement guards, swing into action. you go down a checklist of all the things you needs to do to secure the perimeter. and you can prevent any type of attack from land, sea, air, and cyberspace. we know how to do this. the failure of last wednesday was an inappropriate assessment that that level of security was required given what was coming. but we do know how to do this. we know how to do this for january 20. >> mr. secretary, one final question. you know, as we move further away from this event, we see more videos. actually the scene gets uglier. as kasie hunt said earlier, there is not a cooling process going off. we have americans being more concerned every day by what they

are learning. you can say the same thing about law enforcement's response. the further we move away, the more we see what a botched response it was. ken delaneyian reported this morning. we also of course this morning the "new york times" finding out all the different warnings the capitol hill cops got. they did anything about it. looking at this almost a week out, what are you saying in the failures of law enforcement community to respond and how do they respond better next time? >> this is actually not complicated to figure out. it was a failure to sess what should have necessary by way of security for this particular congressional event. if there had been an assessment this is like an inauguration, like a u.n. general assembly, a

whole level of security would have immediately kicked in and we would have gone through the checklist to make sure that the right combination of secret service, capitol police, metro police, fbi, coast guard, tsa and the guard were all there to prevent penetration of the u.s. capitol grounds. we know how to do this. >> i know you have to go. i just have to ask you one other question. say this group had scaled the walls of the fence around the white house, the perimeter and started racing towards the white house to kill the president, would they be shot? . >> probably. >> i sure as hell hope they would be shot. i know that as their oversight.

>> if that's article 2, if that's the way we protect and defend the article 2 official, what about article one officials? the next time this happens and people are trying to overthrow the government, officers have gu guns, can they shoot at people trying to get inside the capitol if that's what's required to protect not only the speaker but republicans and democrats alike? >> joe, there's got to be -- there are circumstances that warrant that. whether it's the capitol, white house, the pentagon, military bases. there's a certain amount of discretion that has to go into this. the u.s. capitol, as you know better than me, or former member of congress. the u.s. capitol is supposed to

be the people's house. we have resisted all these years a fence or a barrier around the capitol, around the house and senate office buildings. what happened last week was trumpism boiled over. and a lot of us saw this coming. trumpism boiled over. and donald trump himself lit the match. it was a once in a century event. someone texted me this morning to say this was america's benghazi. but this is what happens when you have a president who is irresponsible with a depraved indifference to public safety, human life. and let's hope in my lifetime and your lifetime we never have an incumbent president again who could do something like this. . >> former secretary of homeland security jeh johnson, thank you very much. we could hope. >> thank you.

>> joining us now, a member of the armed services committee, democratic congressman jason crow of colorado. former army ranger who served in both iraq and afghanistan. and he was seated in the house gallery when rioters broke through the final barricade. congressman jason crow released a summary of a phone call with ryan mccarthy where mccarthy indicated the defense department is aware of further possible threats posed by would-be terrorists and is working with local and federal law enforcement to coordinate security preparations. i want to ask you about that in just a moment. first, if you can tell us what it was like inside there. you have likened it to your service abroad. can you add some description to what you went thrugough, the people around you and did you feel your life was in danger? >> good morning.

i haven't experienced anything like that in 15 years. the last time was in iraq and afghanistan. a moment for 30 minutes where two dozen members of congress were trapped in the house chamber. think about that. for half an hour, there were several dozen members of congress that were trapped in the house chamber, surrounded by a violent mob. what's even more shocking is i don't think, and most of us don't think, they even knew they were in there, they being the police. i think they had lost track of us. that we had been abandoned and left behind. we will find that in the days and weeks ahead. how dangerous it could have been. many of us did think we would have to make a stand to fight our way out of there. but we had barricaded the doors. the mob was trying to break the doors down. i had a pen in my pocket that i was going to use to fight my way out. i asked the they are members to take their pins off.

it was an extremely dangerous situation. >> looking ahead to inaugural activities, do you think that those who say we can just wing it, this president can stay, let's just get there, is that a safe bet? >> well, what we saw wednesday was a catastrophic security failure. up until wednesday, i had had confidence in the leadership of the capitol police and the sergeants at arms. that competence was grossly misplaced as it turns out. there is a tremendous lack of competence by members of congress staff, journalists on the hill many of whom i have talked to in the last couple days don't feel safe returning to the capitol complex. and i understand that feeling. it's necessary in the days ahead that very aggressive measures are put into place. even more importantly, substantively putting security

some place that we need to. what we have seen is the bitter of a domestic terrorist movement. trump u has radicalized his most fringed supporters. he has given them permission to be violent, to do anything necessary. they in their own minds believe themselves to be some sort of revolutiona revolutionary. they are dangerous people. they are not going away any time soon. we have to make sure we are working hand in hand with the biden administration when it comes into office very soon here to put the people in place within the national security apparatus, law enforcement so we can deal with this in the years to come. >> congressman mike barnicle has a question for you. mike. >> congressman, as you just pointed out, we do have a domestic terrorism unit, domestic treufts gathered in this country. we saw witness to them last

week, obviously. you were there. my question to you, the fbi has been gathering intelligence and information about domestic terrorists for a couple of years now. why is it that chris wray has not been called yet to the house of representatives to testify or to the senate to testify about what the fbi had gathered about this group of terrorists who attacked the capitol last week? who did he share -- what the fbi share that information with, and what happened to it? why didn't anyone act on it? >> i don't have the answer to that. you know, there are just so many egregious things. maybe one of the biggest is this wasn't a secret. right? this was being planned out in the open for weeks. i knew. i saw reports of what people were planning to do. and i thought they had a plan to deal with it.

it is just abhorrent to me that this wasn't done. yesterday i had a half hour call with the secretary of the army. because i have been so upset that we are now in five days since this happened. five days. and no federal officials have briefed congress on what happened. so i had this call because i had reached out to him myself saying he need answers. and i told him after the call, i am releasing the notes of this call because the american public and congress deserves to know because there has been no information put out. so i released the notes. today that is the only information that we have been able to put out so far. of course, you know, no surprise to anybody who has been watching anything the trump administration has done the last four years, they shouldn't be surprised by donald trump and this administration at all. the surprise becomes the continued enabling by members of congress and those who still, still are not willing to remove

this president and do what's necessary to protect our domestic security and national security and the american people. >> so, congressman, many people have been asking whether this was a, quote, inside job. i certainly don't believe it was a, quote, inside job. but i did see too many pictures of capitol hill police officers opening up gates, guiding people into the capitol, politely allowing the insurrectionists out, giving selfies with people who were posing a threat. actually to you and to other members of congress. are you -- do you plan to investigate, do members of congressman to investigate whether in fact, this insurrection got out of hand because there were too many people in uniform that were actually sympathetic to what they were trying to do? >> yeah. we are going to investigate that. there's a couple of things that are going on here.

number one, the overwhelming majority of the officers performed with courage, honor. and threw their lives and themselves on the line. i saw it myself. they had performed remarkable and did their job. they should have never been put in that position. i'm angry for them that they were put in this position. i believe some people that were dare eleerelict in their duties well. there is video of officers allowing some of the mob to pass. in some of those instances what i suspect is happening, and this is part of law enforcement training. if you are surrounded by a mob, if you are isolated and you have no way out and you have no support, you are not supposed to fight it, right. and i have seen this. i have seen plenty of violent mobs in iraq and afghanistan. if you fight, you will die.

they will tear you participant. so i suspect that is what was happening in some of these videos. folks, out of sheer self-preservation, were trying not to put up a fight. i think there will be a mixed pack of responses as we look into this. . >> congressman jason crow, thank you very much. john meacham, i would ask for historical parallels. other than the civil war, leading up to the civil war, there aren't any in american history, are there? >> there aren't. although, i would think for a second about 20 years ago and what so many of us, me very much included, were talking about in the aftermath of september 11th. a lot of us were talking about where are the moderate muslims? where are the people who who represent the mainstream of the faith? why are they not a larger voice in this moment. and i think a lot of white

southern christians, of which i am all three, have a particular obligation, as are you. have a particular obligation to call this out for what it is, which is i'm even uncomfortable with the word "riot." this was a terror attack, an insurrection. it is a miracle that there are not hundreds upon hundreds of people dead, including the elected leaders of our republic. this was as close to an existential event about the american experiment, as you say, since appomatox. we don't do the country any favors by failing to call it what it is. we have learned anew that words

matter. what we all say matters. and so i think that as we confront this, we have to use history, we have to use faith, we have to use reason to take an assessment of what this says about who we are. and then who we want to be. and, you know, one of the most important paeurbls in luke is the prod gal son. and the father welcomes back the prod gal. what did the prod gal do first? he confessed. he acknowledged that he was wrong. and then there can be mercy. there has to be a moral reckoning here. there has to be investigations here that you are talking about. i think this is a plot against america. this is as important as the 9/11 commission work. absolutely.

the law enforcement part, absolutely. these reports are essential. minute to minute when we walk around with our phones and this political conversation shoots off into ever narrower pockets, we have to remember that what we say has implications. and if we really believe that this isn't who we want to be, it is a minute-to-minute, hour-to-hour, day-to-day obligation for us to tell a different story and to live a different story about the country. as david blight wrote over the weekend, there is a new lost cause narrative in this country. sit powerful. and the last one shaped us for well over 100 years.

my first represent toral job ever i was an intern for the chat chattanooga times. and i was taking along to the extradition of buy lesson delay beckwith, on the night of june 11, 1963, had taken a.30-6 rifle and shot edgars to death in an act of political terrorism and assassination to undo the work of the second reconstruction, which was the civil rights movement. this is a successor event on a larger scale. we have to stand against it. >> if you look at the violence in every one of these videos we have been showing you this morning, all the videos you are seeing circulating out across the internet, it's all happening because of one person.

you know, in torts class they teach you, you are trying to figure out who is responsible for negligence. there is the but for test. but for so-and-so, would the acts have happened, would the malpractice from happened. in this case you put donald trump's name in. but for donald trump, would any of this have happened? but for his lies, would any of this happen. but for his conspiracy theories, would any of this happen? the answer is all accounts, no, no, no. he is responsible for this insurrection. he is responsible for from treason. he is responsible for the attempts on the lives of mike pence and nancy pelosi. and federal prosecutors need to

prove something that hasn't been proven the past four years with donald trump. they need to prove that in america still no man is above the law. let's bring in the founder of the lincoln project, rick wilson. rick, we're former republicans. sons of the south. we both spent the last four and a half, five years warning people about donald trump. i had a failure of imagination. i will be the first to admit it. i never imagined it could get this bad. that we would actually have the capitol stormed and we would have capitol hill police officers overwhelmed and law enforcement agencies sitting on their hands and not repelling these riots, this insurrection, this attempt at treason. what does notice look like for

every person on the capitol grounds that participated in this? what does justice look like for rudy giuliani? what does justice look like for don jr., what does justice look like for donald j. trump. >> thank you for having me this morning. i think justice needs to come spreuftly for these people. i think the folks that were engaged in the violence on capitol hill, the folks that entered that building with the intent -- and let's not fool ourselves. we have heard it on tape. we have seen it in their social media statements. we have heard from people that sent their facebook posts and said i'm going to go to d.c. to put a bullet in nancy pelosi. i'm going to d.c. to hang mike pence. every teenage kid outside of rocca, you don't want to strike every single one of them. but you do want to get their

hraoels. we need a strike on this conspiracy. we need to go after these folks. rudy giuliani, my old boss, is responsible. don jr. is responsible. roger stone is responsible. ali akbar is responsible. these people need to be held to account. you have these guys dragging, turning point u.s. was brag they had 80 buses coming to d.c. to take back washington. they are engaged in she dishes conspiracy. they need to be held accountable, one and all. the other thing that is very important here -- go ahead. >> no, you go. >> one thing that is vitally important here is the excuse machine, the playing with josh hawley, ted cruz, ron johnson, marco rubio, how terrible, we never saw this coming. b.s. if those people had succeeded in

killing someone in the house or senate, by now they would have already started to make excuses. liberal media bias. they had to do something about it. these people were on that floor that manager. josh hawley in particular. ted cruz in particular. they were basically calling those people to action as well. they need to be held accountable. >> so yamiche, when you have a president and family members and attorneys and stooges and citing of riot that seeks to basically decapitate nancy pelosi and mike pence, vice president, speaker of the house, what is standing in between the people around the president inside the white house who call themselves patriots and the 25th amendment? >> it's a good question. what now what is standing

between them is the president, the vice president has not gone to the point where he feels, one, he should take that step but, two, the cabinet secretaries from my reporting have not formally presented the option of the 25th amendment to vice president pence. of course we hear and see nancy pelosi saying that she is now on a ticking time with pence. my sources also tell me that is very unlikely he does not within the to look like a kweurt. so that's not going to happen. you see cabinet secretaries resigning themselves, trying to do away and distance themselves from even the decision to have to invoke the 25th amendment. you see betsy devos and elaine chao, education departments leaving. it is something to think through the idea that these people are condemning president trump at the last minute. you see all of these people wanting to now say he changed.

mick mulvaney saying he is not the same person as eight months ago. a lot of people roll their eyes on that. the president said he would have people push and fight to make sure he stayed in power. i will say one other thing. we have been talking about this issue what would happen if these people were black, latino or muslim. they said they killed us for less. that is how african-americans, especially in this country, look at that. they have killed us for less. >> not only have they killed black people for less, they shoot them in the back. i mean, they shoot them getting into their cars. they are acquitted. and in this case you have white people storming police officers from the front. i don't understand it. i don't understand it when it is

coming from any side of. but especially at the united states capitol. and the nonsense. i'm going to go to jonathan in a second. but the nonsense, rick wilson, that this is something new. i'm going to go back to august of 2016 again. when donald trump said before an audience, if you don't want hillary clinton to appoint federal judges, you can use the second amendment solution. there are a lot of good people here that know what i'm talking about. he was talking about the gunning down of a presidential candidate. the beginning of 2020. remember the kill list, the former coast guard officer had with all the weapons spread out in his basement, members of the media, including us, were target indeed that. every democratic candidate for

office was on that kill list before he was arrested. did donald trump condemn that now? did ben sasse condemn? no. did ted cruz -- >> no. josh hawley, no. kevin mccarthy, no. did they condemn any of this? did kevin mccarthy condemn or -- who was the yokel, mick mulvaney. did he condemn donald trump when donald trump praised a member of congress beating up a reporter for asking a simple question about health care? i think that was in 2017 or 2018. did mick mulvaney condemn donald trump when he kept telling people, if you beat up protesters, i will pay the -- come on! this is a new donald trump? i should say her name. i'm not going to because she's been a friend for years. but there's a columnist who

said, oh, my god, donald trump, the line has been crossed. he's gone even worse. no, he hasn't. this is who donald trump has been. this is who he has been since 2016 when he started talking about violence against protesters. >> people like you and i have been warning this country five years almost now that donald trump represents a profound and existential threat to this country. we're not just soft institutionist rinos. we believe there is a boundary layer and political violence kraosz that layer. when he was saying go beat the hell out of that guy, i will pay your bills, that was a warmup.

the manly said of this equation was to go kick as. this was political violence. if you didn't do these things, the socialists would win. here we are, and they are going to excuse this. you have already seen it. oh, it's economic anxiety. oh, it's because of election cheating. oh, it's because of this and that. the layer by which we should go to revolution and violence is a whole lot higher than your feelings got hurt because you lost georgia. your feelings were hurt because he lost the electoral college. this is a rage-based, emotion-based movement now. it is going to draw in the crazy and the out liars. this is a white house that still won't condemn the qanon conspiracy theory that is driving this. again, joe, unless we go after the organizers of this event and the people who poured gasoline on this fire, we will have a replay of rwanda.

the truth and reconciliation committee after the genocide, they asked media what happened. oh, we poured gasoline around the country for years and years. we finally struck the match. donald trump has been pouring gasoline around this country for four long years, and he struck the match at that rally. and the people that organized it and paid for it and funded it and pushed it and the people that showed up with weapons and zip ties, with clear intent to murder american legislators, they are beyond redemption. you can't say to those people, well, okay, they just got angry. they get a pass. no, it doesn't work that way. this country, unless we are going to go into a second civil war at a level that will be more hideous than anything we can imagine right now, they need to be stopped, held to account, and brought to the bar of justice and taken care of. >> correct. >> jonathan, what does this week look like inside the white house? what's the president doing?

what did he do yesterday? what are you hearing his plans are for the week? >> joe, we have been talking all morning about the need, the temperature is not cooling off. the president is not doing anything to this country is not cooling off. you know, someone put it to me over the weekend. we are just minutes away, a few quick decisions by capitol police officers and a few wrong turns made by this crowd of rioters, we could have had public executions being live streamed and the president has barely done anything about it. he was quiet this weekend. his twitter account is gone. we should not anticipate he is staying that way. the white house is gearing up for another impeachment trial. we expect rudy giuliani to be on that again. it takes certainly a special president to get impeached more than once. we know that the president is

traveling to texas tomorrow, to the border, a town called alamo, symbolism not too subtle there, to talk about his immigration policies. we expect him to go after big tech. he is in a rage about these companies. we expect him to go after china. how much we will see him publically beyond the texas trip remains to be seen. his aids want him out there, but they're also afraid of what he might say. that heavily scripted video from the other day. his true thoughts have been very different around this. and there is a real concern even among the few advisers he has left as what could happen next. it does seem like the 25th amendment is off the table. the timing of which, mind you, might spill into the biden

administration, which could complicate their matters. he has no intent according to our reporting to do anything to tell his supporters to stop this and there is real fear there will be more violence, more protests in the days and weeks ahead, particularly on january 20th, biden's inauguration. >> so his staff is afraid of him, they're afraid of what he might say, so on and so on. if not the 25th amendment now, then when? these people that are so afraid of what he might say or do they have this to invoke. how weak. >> let's just pray to god that we never again have men and women inside the white house serving any president who put their loyalty to a tyrant, to a fascist above that of the constitution of the united states or these great united

states of america. >> thank you all very much for being on this morning. this morning president-elect joe biden announced his plans to nominate william j. burns to run the cia. "the washington post" david ig nashs jones us for this. >> david, you broke this story. tell us about it. >> so the decision to run the cia is a significant one. this was the last big national security choice that biden had to make and it is really interesting what it tells us about how president-elect biden intends to govern. bill burns is a classic gray man of diplomacy. he's a person who administrations, republican and democratic, have turned to for sensitive missions. he speaks russian and arabic. he served in some of the

toughest places around the world. he is a classic example of the very best in our foreign service and is regarded of that by both republicans and democrats. it is an interesting choice. he's a very quiet, reserved person. not elbows out. again, the opposite. that's characteristic of the team biden is putting together. there were those who hoped that the nominee would be somebody from inside, a cia career officer who could represent the workforce, help put moral at the cia back after these years when the agency has really been a punching bag for president trump and all his ranting about the deep state. in the end, president biden wanted an insider and that's what he's got in bill burns. >> sadly, the cia has been a punching bag for far too long and were asked to do things 15, 16, 17 years ago. i did them.

and have been abused over the past 15 years. i certainly hope william burns goes in and is a positive force for those career men and women protecting this country. >> i think, joe, there is every reason to think that -- >> go ahead. >> mike, go? >> dave -- david, bill burns has a distinguished career as you know, as you have pointed out several times. he has great experience with russia helping run the state department, and he is familiar to president-elect biden. could you talk about the effects of comfort and competence that he brings to the cia and how that impacts the advice he gives and the intelligence he offers to the president -- the incoming president of the united states? >> mike, one feature of every

member of this biden national security team is their comfort level with the president. it's somebody that joe biden knew personally when beau biden was serving in new york. biden's comfort level obviously with tony blinken for decades, his key foreign policy adviser, couldn't be closer. the same with every member of this team. so in terms of having a group that's going to play well together, to use that, you know, grade school phrase, he's got them. in terms of competence, those are all people who served in significant positions. they have been in "the situation room" for hour after hour. they have talked through some of the toughest things that government officials had to deal with. so there is a lot of that.

i think the only question i would ask people to think about, hope the new administration will think about is is this group going to be prepared to challenge joe biden, to push him, to push him to be the great president the country needs, push him to make decisions he may not want to make. there are going to be some hard things ahead where you can't please everybody, you can't make everybody happy. what we have been talking about, the rise of domestic terrorism, to really deal with that, you will have to break some china. you will have to do some things that are really tough. i think this team in terms of comfort level and confidence will have the toughness and forth wrigrightness to say to t boss, boss, that's not going to work. >> speaking of playing well together, mike, sorry for the cross talk in the middle of all that. david, in 15 seconds, will the new cia director be a positive force inside the cia and support

their mission and support the men and woman who were too often the punching bags of people on capitol hill who asked him to do things and then after they do it turn on him? >> bill burns serving overseas in places like moscow knew the chief of station intimatically as part of his team. he's been in these places and he's always been seen as somebody who works with his diplomats, with his intelligence officers. remember intelligence officers run the whole embassy. yes, i think it will be well received within the agency. they need help. they need to reinvent themselves for the 21st century. he's a guy who has set his sights on doing that. we'll see how he does. >> thank you very much. mie mike, thank you as well. the latest on the new push to impeach president trump for a

second time. we're back in just a moment. ♪ we made usaa insurance for veterans like martin. when a hailstorm hit, he needed his insurance to get it done right, right away. usaa. what you're made of, we're made for. usaa plus have high blood pressure. they may not be able to take just anything for pain. that's why doctors recommend tylenol®. it won't raise blood pressure the way that advil® aleve or motrin® sometimes can. for trusted relief, trust tylenol®. the rx crafted by lexus. get 0.9% financing on the 2021 rx 350. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

sadly the person that's running the executive branch is a deranged, unhinged president of the united states and only a number of days until we can be protected from him. but he has done something so serious that there should be prosecution against him. >> well, i gather that the 25th amendment is off the table. >> no, it isn't. nothing is off the table. >> nothing is off the table. that includes a second trump impeachment now on the fast track in the house as we get new information and new video from last week's horrendous attack on the capitol. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, january 11th. five days after the attack on

the capitol, we continue to learn more about what actually happened there. remember this video of an officer being chased and attacked and then running up the stairs, being chased by pro trump rioters. we now believe that this officer single handedly led the mob away from the senate chambers where the full senate, including the vice president were inside. you can see as they reach the top of the stairs he looks over. and in between those two chairs is the senate chambers. he pushes one of the protesters to get him to follow him away from the door, eventually leading them away from the senate chamber. and here is new video that emerged this past weekend of the chilling events. a warning to our viewers that this video is disturbing.

>> usa! usa! usa! >> get that [ bleep ] out of there!

♪ that our flag was still there ♪ oh, say does that star-spangled banner.

>> the staff went under the table, barricaded the door, turned out the lights and were silent in the dark under the table for two and a half hours. >> wow. >> during which time, they listened to the invaders banging on that door. as you can hear on a recording from one of the staffer's phones. the fbi is investigating whether any of the agitators, some seen in ballistic vests with zip ties intended to kidnap or legislatures. >> they were coming to find you, maybe to hurt you. i don't know. >> the evidence is now that it was a well planned, organized group with leadership and guidance and direction.

and the direction was to go get people. they were vocally saying where's the speaker. we know she has staff. they're here someplace. we're going to find them. >> let's be very clear about this. this was well organized. it was organized online. there was the goal of killing nancy pelosi. there was the goal of killing mike pence. put that together. you have this mob that's focussing on decapitating the head of our constitutional government. the goal to kill the number two and the number three leaders. the number two and the three constitutional officers in the united states of america. and it was explicitly stated. we also found out this weekend, of course, that while donald trump was watching this, he was curious. he was confused, not that all

hell was breaking loose at the center of american democracy, but that more people around him weren't as excited as he was at the chaos that was going on. as ben sasse said, all reports from inside the white house, the senator said that donald trump was delighted and excited while he was watching the capitol riot go on. and let's just -- let's call this what this is, okay? i said a couple of weeks ago, we need to just start going by definitions. >> okay. >> all right? let's stop trying to figure out what donald trump is, what he's not. he's a fascist. i said that well before this, this happened. he encourages violence. and this is not new. you know, i saw -- i'm not going to even say her name. it is a writer i saw and respected. but one writer said donald trump

burned bad, turned even darker. you know, that would be kind of hard for nancy pelosi and other people whose lives have been threatened over the past four, five years to decide donald trump has just turned bad. why don't we talk about what he said during the campaign when he kept talking about violence like a fascist leader does. remember in august when he talked about second amendment solutions, that if we wanted to stop hillary clinton from getting elected and appointing supreme court justices that donald trump said there were many in the crowd that could engage in second amendment solutions. i wrote at the time in "the washington post," 2016, that donald trump had once again crossed a bloody line and this time there was no coming back from it, that the republicans needed to drop him as their nominee for president before something tragic happened. but they continued letting him

do this. after charlottesville, talking about enemies of the people, praising a congressman for beating up a reporter who had just asked a question about health care, constantly glorifying violence. who does this? who does this? fascists do this. and they have throughout history. muscilini would go out, write speeches and right at the top of anything you read about him, he rose to power by inspiring people to go and attack and invade and to trash government buildings in italy. and this was -- we're going to show you a little bit of -- in fact, i don't know if we have it right now. do we? do we have a little bit of arnold schwarzenegger. arnold schwarzenegger born in austria two years after the end of world war ii talked about how he grew up with broken men who

believed hitler's lies, and it was one lie stacked on top of another lie stacked on top of another lie, and those men believed those lies and they and austria and germany paid the ultimate price for it. here's governor schwarzenegger. >> now, i grew up in austria. i'm very aware of the night of broken glass. it was a night of rampage against the jews carried out in 1938, the nazi equivalent of the proud boys. so being from europe, i have seen firsthand how things can spin out of control. i know there is a fear in this country and all over the world that something like this could happen right here. now, i do not believe it is, but i do believe that we must be aware of the dire consequences of selfishness and cynicism.

our no, ma'amsy has been tempered by wars, injustices and insurrections. i believe, as shaken as we are by the events of recent days, we will come out stronger because we now understand what can be lost. >> we do understand that, but as governor schwarzenegger said, we now know, as we always have now, who donald trump is. he has revealed himself and he will be driven from the public square. he will lose relevance. he will be chased by prosecutors for the rest of his life. >> so far the tech community and the golf community has chased him away. we'll see what the actual justice of our community does. >> but the question is, what about kevin mccarthy? a guy who actually inspired these traitors with his seditious words. what about jim jordan, who is getting the presidential medal of freedom for donald trump

forever debasing that? what about people that actually wrestled with him as a coach when he was in college whether he deserves anything. you look at josh hawley. you look at ted cruz who just a few days before this act shouted, we are not going to go quietly. donald trump talking about, we have to be strong. we can't be weak. march up to the capitol. don jr. talking about we're coming to get you. we're coming to get you. and it's going to be fun. rudy giuliani talking about combat justice. combat justice. and there is some sad, pathetic human beings who continue to lie to you on other cable news

networks trying to convince you that all of those red hats, all of those red hats, they were members of antifa. i'll tell you it is the largest gathering of antifa in american history with all those red hats because law enforcement officers are saying to the people that they're arresting, most of the people you have seen on your television screen over the past week, they have deep ties in the trump community. no, this is the face of donald trump. this is the natural conclusion from donald trump. in 2015, in december of 2015 when we sat on this show, when he had tried to push a muslim ban where this ends, what is this, nazi germany or is this just germany in 1933? here we are five years later and a guy who is like a fascist,

preaching violence to his supporters, been begging his supporters to even age in violence against the media. and here we see him engaging in violence against the media like donald trump has been asking him to do for five years, engaging in violence against his political opponents and going to kill nancy pelosi and going to kill mike pence, a guy who has still, i don't think, heard from the president of the united states. >> coming up, it is not just the domestic threat on the plate of the incoming president. there are plenty of foreign challenges as well. nbc's keir simmons has a deep dive into joe biden's foreign policy straight ahead on "morning joe." managing type 2 diabetes? you're on it. staying fit and snacking light? yup, on it there too. you may think you're doing all you can to manage type 2 diabetes and heart disease... ...but could your medication do more

to lower your heart risk? jardiance can reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults who also have known heart disease. so, it could help save your life from a heart attack or stroke. and it lowers a1c. jardiance can cause serious side effects including dehydration, ...genital yeast or urinary tract infections, and sudden kidney problems. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may be fatal. a rare but life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction... ...and don't take it if you're on dialysis or have severe kidney problems. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. lower a1c and lower risk of a fatal heart attack? on it with jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. honey honey? new nyquil severe honey is maximum strength cold and flu medicine with soothing honey-licious taste. nyquil honey. the nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, stuffy head, fever best sleep with a cold medicine.

for double the protein on footlong subs and the new protein bowls. and if you want to go pro like marshawn, don't let anything get in your way. here we go! yeah, appreciate you, man! go pro and get double the protein for just $2 more. every time you touch a surface, bacteria is left behind. go pro and get double the now, consider how many times your family touches the surfaces in your home in 24 hours. try microban 24. spray on hard surfaces to kill 99.9% of viruses and bacteria initially, including the virus that causes covid-19. once dry, microban forms a bacteria shield that keeps killing bacteria for 24 hours, even after multiple touches. try microban 24. this has been medifacts for microban 24.

let's bring in former u.s. attorney, now an msnbc news law

analyst, chuck rosenberg. >> chuck, what do we have as far as responsibility for the rioters, responsibility for people like rudy giuliani inciting them by talking about marching up to the hill and engaging in combat justice. don jr. talking about or coming after you if you don't support my daddy. we're coming after you and it's going to be fun. >> you know, joe, i think there is a lot of people who can be charged. and i understand the desire for swift justice. there is a second value really important here, which is thorough justice. meaning, as quickly as we want to move because these people are dangerous and these people are vile and these people are criminals, we also want to make sure that we understand all of what happened, who said what. one of the hardest things, and i know joyce knows this, in any criminal case is to prove intent. by the way, those things you were just talking about, twitter and facebook, the platforms that these criminals used to advance their cause will also be a

terrific source of evidence for prosecutors and investigators. so as quickly as i hope we move, and i hope we move will real equity, we also need to make sure that we get the right people for the right crimes and the right way. and if that takes a little more time, i'm okay with that. justice needs to come down very, very hard on what happened. it was not just a crime but a riot. not just a riot, but an insurrection. and, so, doing it right and doing it quickly is a value here, joe. >> coming up, the unmaking of america. author kurt anderson published a book back in august that is taking on a profound new focus today. he joins us next on "morning joe." woo! you are busy...

working, parenting, problem solving. at new chapter vitamins we've been busy too... innovating, sourcing organic ingredients, testing them and fermenting. fermenting? yeah like kombucha or yogurt. and we formulate everything so your body can really truly absorb the natural goodness. that's what we do, so you can do you. new chapter wellness, well done.

keeping your oysters busihas you swamped. you need to hire. i need indeed indeed you do. the moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a shortlist of quality candidates from a resume data base claim your seventy-five-dollar credit when you post your first job at indeed.com/promo they need a network that puts them first. that connects them to technology, to each other, and to other agencies. that's why at&t built firstnet with and for first responders the emergency response network authorized by congress. firstnet. because putting them first is our job.

fanew olay collagen peptide 24e? with derm recommended peptides. hydrates better than the $400 cream. for visibly firmer skin. olay. face anything. so give your businesss more than resolutions... give it solutions, from comcast business. work more efficiently with fast internet and advanced wifi. make your business safer with powerful cybersecurity solutions. and stay productive with 24/7 support. make this year's resolution better solutions. bounce forward with comcast business. get started with a powerful internet and voice solution for just $64.90 a month. plus, for a limited time,

ask how to get a $500 prepaid card when you upgrade. switch today. live look at the white house. 24 passed the hour. president-elect joe biden's latest pick for his foreign policy and security team, ambassador william burns for cia chief underscores that the new biden administration values

experience. nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons has been looking in depth at what biden's foreign policy will look like, with a focus this morning on the team that he is building. keir. >> reporter: good morning. we have just gone through years, haven't we, where experience was frowned upon. where drain the swamp was directed at career official. what percentage was saying for his team was that it does matter that you know what you're talking about. the nomination of ambassador william burns for cia chief just underscores that. what he's saying is that diplomats who have given their life to service should be listened to. my goodness. it's a turning point. america is set to lurch. from last week's scenes at

capitol hill and a president whose antidemocrat ek rhetoric left america's reputation seriously bruised on the world's stage to one of the most seasoned administration washington has seen. in a long time, president-elect biden began his senate career during vietnam, urged president clinton to intervene in bosnia, has supported and opposed wars in the gulf and was in the situation room when osama bin laden was killed. john brennan was in that same room. >> biden has about 50 years of experience dealing with foreign affairs. >> how do you approach a president like that? >> well, i think you take into account his experiences. you make sure that you're able to understand exactly the evolution of the u.s. foreign policies offer the years because he is very well schooled in it. >> i'm pleased to announce nominations and staff for -- >> reporter: and biden is

picking people with experience. you could say he's putting the band back together. tony blinking for secretary of state. jake sullivan for national security adviser. linda thomas greenfield for the un. all served under president obama. the difference from the trump administration will be night and day. >> i just got off the phone with the nominee to the ambassador to the un and as soon as i hung up the zoom call, i said to my staff, my god, it is so refreshing to talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about. >> former press secretary for president obama is one of tony blinken's best friends. >> what do you think will be his guiding principal or principals? >> he believes both in america's exceptional role in the world and in the truth that america can't be effective, the united states can't be effective on behalf of american citizens

unless it works collaboratively with our allies. >> reporter: but president obama's foreign policy had many critics. intervention in libya led to a civil war that still burns today. obama was criticized for not imposing his red line over the use of chemical weapons in syria after congress refused to support him. and the obama administration's approach to china got tougher, but many said it was not tough enough. james mann, who wrote the book says the returning team members will have a new approach. >> i'm thinking particularly, for example, of his national security adviser incoming, jake sullivan, who has written quite a bit about the need for different considerations in china policy for greater consideration of the economic impact of china on the united

states. although, they won't acknowledge it, they are continuing in the change of direction that started with donald trump. >> president-elect biden says it's not going to be obama 2.0. >> well, it can't be in part obama 2.0 because joe biden is different than barack obama. more importantly, the world is different. china is where it is. russia is where it is. allies see the u.s. somewhat different. >> it will partly depend on congress. senators like chris murphy want biden to remember the role congress is supposed to play. >> i certainly would hope that the biden administration recognizes the overuse of our military in military schools around the world. it is not up to the president of the united states to get involved in a far up place

militarily in order to effe effectuate human rights agenda. that decision is congress's decision. >> how president biden balances upholding human rights and democracy while advocating for the american middle class and turning the page from president trump's unpredictability will ultimately determine the success of his foreign policy. and i think we will get back to some of the obama era conversations, idealism versus realism. intervention versus nonintervention. the real question will be how they can pivot to this new world and how america can come to terms with its changed role in the world, particularly, of course, the growth of china. we'll be looking at china in our next report. >> well, and, keir, we have had a debate inside the united states and around the world

really about how much damage has been done by the past four years by donald trump attacking nato, attacking our allies. and you look at the professionals that joe biden is putting in place, and you get the sense that, yes, while we have lost years to china and given china opportunities they would have never had, if we hadn't abandoned our allies the way donald trump did. >> yes. >> at the same time, it seems our allies have been marching through a desert for four years and will gladly take that glass of water and will be glad to have the united states back. >> yeah. yeah. i mean, joe, look, there are some fundament truths. one, for example, is that without u.s. intelligence simply cannot protect itself. it is that stark. and conversely, of course, america needs those european economic markets. it is a very big market for

america. so, you know, there are things that really hold europe and america together that give you hope to the future. no matter what happened in the last four years. perhaps in the pacific region it is a different story. u.s. still has those allies, japan. but there has been damage done just simply, for example, by what the world saw last week. and one of the questions that people are asking -- you heard it joe, is what happens in four years time. what happens? i don't think the fundamentals have been shifted. >> nbc's keir simmons, thank you very, very much. when it comes to the current economic and health crises, republicans have resorted to what he calls their 40-year-old play book of putting the economic interests of big business and the rich over

everyone else. what, if anything, can biden do about that trend? and as we go to break, a reminder about know your values. exciting partnership with forbes. we're creating a 50 over 50 list. you can nominate a women over 50 who achieved great success in her life and paid it forward to other women along the way. go to knowyourvalue.com for more. we'll be right back. knowyourval more we'll be right back. for some of us, our daily journey is a short one

when you drive less, you pay less with pay per mile insurance from allstate you've never been in better hands allstate click or call for a quote today you power through chronic migraine-15 or more headache days a month each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. so, if you haven't tried botox® for your chronic migraine check with your doctor if botox® is right for you and, if samples are available. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions neck and injection site pain fatigue, and headache. don't receive botox® if there's a skin infection. tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. 95% of patients may pay as little as zero dollars for botox® so, text to see how you can save. botox is the #1 prescribed

branded chronic migraine treatment. so, ask your doctor about botox® today. we do things differently and aother money managers, don't understand why. because our way works great for us! but not for your clients. that's why we're a fiduciary, obligated to put clients first. so, what do you provide? cookie cutter portfolios? nope. we tailor portfolios to our client's needs. but you do sell investments that earn you high commissions, right? we don't have those. so, what's in it for you? our fees are structured so we do better when our clients do better. at fisher investments we're clearly different.

the moxie showerhead speaker. ♪ ooh la la by cherie only from kohler.

the political establishment has brought about the destruction of our factories and our jobs as they flee to mexico, china and other countries all around the world. it is responsible for the economic decisions that have robbed our working class, stripped our country of its wealth and put that money into the pockets of a handful of large corporation and political

enemies. >> that was donald trump in 2016 campaigning as on economic populus. i remember that two-minute ad he put out at the end of the campaign and thought, man, that was going to play well in the upper midwest. it was a message that aligned with presidential hopeful bernie sanders saying the federal government is responsible. four years later, joe biden is going to attempt to change that view as he inherit's donald trump's economy in crisis while combatting the pandemic and massive income inequality, which has just exploded during the pandemic to allow him to prove that government actually isn't always the problem, that sometimes it's the solution. now let me tell you something.

over the past couple of months, i have been hearing from conservative to moderate democrats about kurt anderson's latest book. it's called "evil geniuses." i have read it and have been fascinating. as a lot of you know, i came into congress as a conservative with a libertarian streak. also with a populus streak. but i began to realize that american capitalism is at risk, and it's at risk of because of income disparity because the rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer. right now another real problem is we've got trusts that need to be broken up. for some reason, we have allowed the it age -- the information

age, we've let our biggest corporations in the information arena turn into monopolies. i wanted to bring kurt on and see what some of the solutions could be as we move forward with a divided congress. a lot of people have my ideology that need to be persuaded in the senate and the house on the democratic side. also with us, publisher of the newsletter the dot ink and member of the new york times editorial board marta gay. we will talk about this in a second. but one thing i loved in your book is your explanation, and it is extraordinary, that some point people came to the conclusion that my ideology is a

38% ideology so good luck getting the other 12% to win. but you explain how social issues were brought in by these economic libertarians, how other distractions were brought in, and we can't not look at the last week and not see that donald trump gave the biggest tax cuts ever to billionaires and multinational corporations, bragged about it that night at mar-a-lago, said, hey, i just made all of you a lot richer and he did it in part by lying to working class americans, spreading lies, spreading conspiracy theories and distracting them. talk about that part of the play book. >> well, thanks for having me on and talking about the book. i'm glad you played a bit of his big closing campaign ad in 2016 because we all forgot about that part of the trump promise and the trump lie. in some measure it's his biggest

lie. hit helped him get elected as he suggested it would, but then it was forgotten entirely and indeed the only thing it did was the trillion dollar tax cut for the rich and big business. now trump is trump. but this is a long time coming. the evil geniuses, the economic libertarians of the right, the rational people who really run the republican party and have for -- certainly for the last 20, 25 years have allowed in all kinds of exciting falsehoods into their mainstream. put the racism aside and the bigotry, which had been -- had been preceding that as part of the game plan, but these exciting falsehoods that neither serves our interests like pretending that climate change is not real and nothing to worry about. but then all kinds of increasingly preposterous

conspiracy theories. yes, we have qanon, but that kind of nonsense has really entered the mainstream of the right for more than a generation now. so donald trump is a horrible symptom of this long-term game as you suggest to get people other than the rich to join up. but it didn't happen overnight. >> and, kurt, i also want to talk about businesses and the responsibility that businesses have, and it's something that people don't like going there. i'm going there. it was the big businesses and the big corp. rorations in germ that thought adoll hitler was a clown, thought they could control him and thought they could get good business legislation passed by him and

also were so fearful of the spread of socialism and communism that they struck their deal with the devil. just to be really blunt, i couldn't understand why so many corporations in america, why so many hedge fund people in america, why some of the biggest business people continued with donald trump. but your book certainly helped explain that because at the end of the day it was money above all things. as you said, profits are essential turned into profits are everything. >> well, exactly. and that preceded the conspiracy madness, preceded donald trump. it was at this certain point when milton became this extreme article of faith for the republican party and including that all regulation was bad. taxes should effectively be

eliminated, and that's really all we care about and on and on and on. and discrediting government. you know, that has been part of the game plan certainly since the '70s and through the 80s. what was last wednesday but the right's anti-government feeling whipped up into this hideous, violent apoth sis. big business, and there has plenty of blame to go around, as you know. i blame democrats a little bit. but big businesses and rich people and people who just want their power and their wealth to be fortified and increased at the expense of everything is this nihilism that really pervaded the basic bargain that the right has made for now 40, going on 50 years. >> yeah. it's not just the biggest business. it's also -- it's an awful lot

of my friends. it is a lot of business people i talk to every day. i am surrounded by trump supporters who continue to support donald trump even after he called for the arrest of joe biden two weeks out. even after he refused to guarantee a peaceful transition. if you really push them at the end of the day it was, well, taxes are low. my family is doing well. business is well. i'm afraid -- >> they would say, he doesn't mean it. >> yeah. he doesn't mean it and those socialists -- that's been the justification. so i want to demock kratize this claim and take it beyond the ceos because there is 75 million americans who share in this blame. >> yeah. i mean, given all of that and given the context here, i was just wondering, kurt, if you could talk a little bit. i mean, how do we actually build

support for things like increasing wages and other similar correctives in this environment after 20, 30 years of this narrative? and, you know, even further, a step further, how do you do that in spite of the racism that we see? and how do you build support for correctives to address racial inequalities and inequities in economic realities that may not be answered by simple wage increase across the board. >> you there, kurt? i'm afraid he has frozen for now. it's kind of a bad when the guy who you have on for a week to talk about his book is the one who freezes. but we're going to get him back up there. obviously there is a conspiracy among some of the most powerful

corporations to freeze the wifi in his new york apartment. let's get your thoughts on this. because, again, and let's look at it. the senate is going to be run by people who are probably like me, despise small government conservative along with democrats who are neo-liberal. you are looking at mark kelly, governor romney. there are two of those moderates that will making these decisions. but when you look at the wealth accumulated by the richest corporations on the planet during the start of this pandemic and the fact that you paid more in federal income taxes than amazon, is that an easy sell regardless of ideology? >> yeah. you know, when i speak to folks like that, my message is very

simple, which is you are not living in the country you think you are. and that is true of the economic conversation that i'm very glad we're having on this show, a conversation i think people didn't used to have in this country 5, 10 years ago with candor. that's very good. but it's also true of the events of the last week on the white supremacy and democracy and insurrection side of things. and in many ways, we are not the country we think we are. we are not the democracy we think we are. we are not the american dream mobility society we think we are. we are living in a lie. and what makes joe biden's moment very interesting and important is barack obama came in inheriting a very bad economic crisis. joe biden comes in inheriting a civilization crisis. every issue you went into is also the fact that democracy may or may not be on life-support right now. it is this massive racial

identity transition that caused so many white people and so many men to prefer to burn down the country instead of sharing it. so the question for joe biden in the moderate, not given to big sweeping economic transformation, the question for him is is he going to be willing to go beyond the kind of couple bay yaw healing divides that is his thing and actually have the courage to heal this country by fixing it. the best -- when you're in a fight with your spouse you don't fix the fight by healing divides. you fix the fight by changing something you did. and so on covid relief, on justice and accountability for everybody who did last week and everybody who did the last four years, and democratic reform, on vaccine rollout, this is an opportunity to show that america works, restore faith in science, restore faith in reason, restore faith in our institutions through action. >> well, let me just say that

when mika and i are in a disagreement i bow my head and say i'm sorry, she's right and i'm wrong. >> not fast enough. >> i think we have you back, kurt. it seems to me, and ewith were just talking about the fact that people with my viewpoint, moderates, the neoliberals that you talk about, that you say so many progressives despise because they've been running the white house, there are people like me that would make the argument, if we don't push forward these economic reforms it is american capitalism itself that is endangered because i grew up in a white suburban neighborhood in atlanta, georgia. my mom and dad, they struggled through the great depression. but hey, they had middle class jobs. and they could afford to send us to college. and they were bought into the american dream. if it keeps getting worse, there are going to be fewer and fewer

americans buying in to the american dream. so don't we have to do this to save american capitalism from itself? >> that's certainly my belief. and this tag that moderate democrats like barack obama and joe biden have gotten us socialist, it's this socialist crap that republicans on the right just at every instance, any program, that democrats propose, socialism is ridiculous. the most successful capitalist free market economies on earth, some of them, on the nordic countries, finland, norway, den mark, sweden are absolutely capitalist and also have these really robust smoesocial dmoires that allow them to have more billionaires, per capita, than the united states does. like fdr in the '30s, he was

saving american capitalism, this rich guy, and welcomed the hatred of his fellow rich people who called him a socialist at the time. and by the way, the fdr analogy, i think, is good and better than the german 1930s analogy. he immediately suggested, as biden should do, that he should deal immediately with the acute crises of the pandemic. that's exactly what fdr did, right, with the depression. and then proving that government would work, and that big government was okay, went on to create the long-term new deal safety nets, and the minimum wage and union rights and social security, that then created the giant scarborough inhabited middle class that works so great, even with very high tax rates on the rich, for 30 or 40 years. i mean, look at -- and i invite

people to do this in the book, look at those years. god knows there were gigantic problems with racism for 30 years after world war ii but economically we became more equal than we'd ever been and so much more equal and fair than we are now. and by the way, i just want to mention, it's not just inequality, that is our buzz word, and god knows it has increased in the last year, but what has also increased and is also part of this, is insecurity. employee insecurity, family insecurity, about health care, about am i going to get fired, am i going to get laid off, is a robot going to take over for me, all that stuff and we've done nothing to mitigate that, or to moderate that, as other countries, yoo u.u know, in var different ways have done. we have abandoned, what, 80% of the people who haven't done well, over the last 40 years.

and it seems to me, and that's what roosevelt did. now, roosevelt also had gigantic majorities in congress. but you take -- you fight with the army you got. you do what you can as a first step and a second step and a third step to try to, you know -- i mean, again, green new deal has become a boogie man as a phrase but something like the new deal for this century, and dealing with the automation and disappearance of jobs and all the rest is essential. but you don't get there in 2022. you start. >> yeah, so somara, kurt talked about the nordic countries but he also talks about in his book the fact that during the eisenhower administration, when the american century was clicking on all cylinders, he talked about the 70% top income tax bracket for the wealthiest

americans, now, of course, i've always been against that. when i was, you know, not making money, i don't think that's the way we want to go. but that said, the argument that if we raise the top income tax rate by two or three points, we are socialists, when it would still be 35 points lower percentage points lower than what icad, when the american economy was booming, or if we close loopholes for multinational corporations, or we have a minimum tax for millionaires and billionaires, or we break up these tech monopolies, and make them pay more taxes, i mean, that's what's so ridiculous, you can't do anything but slash taxes for the wealthiest americans without the national republican party calling you a socialist. >> i mean, that is probably the greatest challenge that the

democrats are up against, and they really need to pull their brain power together and come together and find the right economic policy platform to solve this problem and save american democracy and capitalism but actually also figure out how to talk to the american people about it who have been soaked, for 30, 40 years, and especially for the past four years, in this nonsense that any kind of social net expansion helps them, not all of us, or is socialist. and i think because of that message, that the republican party, long before donald trump, frankly, has been spewing toward the american people, it's a real challenge. one, i really do think that focusing on wages is a good place to begin. the other challenge here is, of course, not just how to talk about this, but how to talk about this in a way that cuts

through this racism and racial divide that donald trump has exacerbated. how do you overcome it? i mean, this is a story as long -- longer than the history of the united states. i mean, the labor class in this country has long been divided along racial lines and that's benefitted only the top 1%. so this is a historic problem, but it's really coming to a head right now and if we don't get it right, i think if the democrats miss this opportunity to actually push for fundamental change, they don't deserve to stay in power, and they won't. >> mara gay, thank you, and kurt andersen, we'll have you back with us next week assuming your internet signal holds up. >> not next week, we're having him back all this week. >> every day. >> we're going to have to put in safeguards against the multinational corporation hit teams that are obviously trying to disconnect his wifi. >> or on the evil geniuses shape

the economy that biden will inherent. >> and i want to trace the history of where we were, and how we've gotten to where we are. it is -- it's a fascinating buildup. it's an extraordinary book. >> that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage after a quick, final break. try boost® high protein... -with 20 grams of protein for muscle health- -versus only 16 grams in ensure® high protein. and now enjoy boost® high protein in café mocha flavor. news of the world -isis certified fresh. and the movie critics are calling... "a towering piece of moviemaking"... is coming home. you can't have her! i'm taking her home! new aveeno® restorative skin therapy. with our highest concentration of prebiotic oat intensely moisturizes over time to improve skin's resilience.

aveeno® healthy. it's our nature™. state of the art technology makes it brilliant. the visionary lexus nx, lease the 2021 nx 300 for $359 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. hi, i'm stephanie ruhle live in new york city. it is monday, january 11th. the start of president trump's last full week in office facing calls to resign or be pushed out. following the riots he helped incite. later today the house will try to get unanimous consent to urge vice president pence to invoke the 25th amendment. the first step in a new push to force trump out, despite the fact that his term ends next week. we're going to have more on that in a minute. but