calmed, that could be out of his control and you could see incredible backlash not just politically but obviously personally, emotionally across the country as we grapple with so much of this. so much at stake in the next six days. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. >> the incursion of the u.s. capitol struck at the very heart of on our republic. >> we're going to walk down to the capitol. >> i in equivocally condemn the violence that we saw last week. >> because you'll never take back our country with weakness. >> no true supporter of mine could ever endorse political violence. >> you have to show strength, and you have to be strong. >> whether you are on the right or on the left, a democrat or a republican, there is never a

justification for violence the. >> the radical left knows exactly what they're doing. they're ruthless. and it's time that somebody did something about it. >> like all of you i was shocked and deeply saddened by the calamity at the capitol last week. >> and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. >> two speeches from the president. one got him impeached. the other he hopes will get him acquitted. good morning and welcome to "morning joe". it is thursday, january 14th. along with joe, willie and me, we have white house reporter for "the associated press", jonathan lemire. he is like scrubbing bubbles? >> it is not him. it's somebody else. nichols. tom nichols will be on the show so we don't have to. >> and lemire does it in the white house.

bbc news world america kay joins us and politics nation and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton joins us this morning. and scrubbing bubbles, usa "today" and contributing writer for the atlantic tom nichols. >> he watches and tweets about hours and hours of speeches on the house floor so we don't have to. to tom in a second. willie, just curious, what was your take on donald trump's speech last night? >> first of all, i would like a full investigation into the last 30 seconds. >> that's my fault. >> my reaction is too little too late of course. he said the right words. obviously he is feeling the pressure. obviously a lawyer who is not named rudy giuliani because it appears he's now ex communicated rudy giuliani and ordered payments to him to be stopped.

some lawyer got to him and said you better get out on the record explicitly and clearly and condemn the violence. his audience was for future juries, courts, but also mitch mcconnell. mitch mcconnell has a decision to make now that the house has voted to impeach. is he going to lead his caucus, republicans in voting to convict when they reconvene next week after a trial? he is talking to mitch mcconnell, somebody who he hasn't talked to in several weeks. it was a plea. look, mitch, i condemn the violence. here i am doing the thing people are saying i haven't done and should have done sooner. so please have mercy on me. so he is beginning to save himself, beginning with that speech. >> jonathan lemire, what reports are you getting out of the white house? what was the speech -- obviously -- it seems to me. we talked about it a little bit

last night. what makes the most sense to me is something you brought up in our conversation, it didn't have anything to do with politics. it had more to do with liability. my god, the liability that this guy could face after he leaves the white house. and good luck trying to get the supreme court saying in citing a riot and insurrection is somehow protected and he would be somehow immune from that sort of activity because it was in the course of his regular duties as president. sedition is not in the course of regular duties as president. i'm sure he had lawyers that he probably finally paid who said, buddy, it's going to be a long, cold, dark winter after you leave the white house. and you're going to have lawsuits coming at you left and right for this. >> yeah. there's no question what's fueled the president about-face here is exactly that.

according to our reporting, he is deeply concerned about the civil cases he could face after leaving the white house, that he could be held responsible for inciting that violence. he is deeply worried about that. that left to his shift and tone from when we have heard from him. any time we start to talk about the president's tone, it's only a matter of time. we can report last night the president was talking to advisers wondering if that was the right decision, wondering if he had gone too far because he didn't want to alienate his supporters who were marching on husband behalf. >> the terrorists, the insurrectionists. let's stop and take a note. half belong to trufpl. the first line in his political obituary. he knows if convicted, and that remains uncertain. it is about a tossup whether he

will be removed from office or not. if so, the senate would vote on a measure to prevent him from holding federal office again which would deny him a chance of a 2024 run. he is banking on that, at least the perception that he is politically viable, to fuel his immediate future. he right now has lost his twitter account, his fund-raising lists. he fears his holdover the party. despite poll numbers that suggest he's still popular with republicans. he needs to maintain those things to stay relevant, which we know he craves most of all, to be talked about, to be on cable, people writing about him and to make money. he will leave in a week with concerns about his financial future. he believes this is an effort to prevent him from making money and staying relevant. an appeal to mitch mcconnell, no

doubt, but to try to ease his reentry to the world after leaving the white house. >> it's been hard to really track what he's done in this presidency, right? but one thing he can do is get impeached. president trump was impeached for a second time yesterday one week after the riot he was charged with inciting and one week before he leaves office. 232-197. unlike the first impeachment, which had no republican support, 10 members of the president's own party voted to impeach, making it the most bipartisan impeachment in u.s. history. jonathan lemire wrote this yesterday. his place in the history books rewritten. president donald trump endured his second impeachment largely alone and silent. for more than four years, trump has dominated the national discourse like no one before him. yet when his legacy was set in

stone on wednesday, he was stunningly left on the sidelines. trump now stands with no equal. the only president to be charged twice with a high crime or misdemeanor. a new co ta for a term defined by a deepening of the nation's divides, and his failures during the worst pandemic in a century. before signing the single article of impeachment, house speaker nancy pelosi spoke from the same lectern that was stolen from her office during last week's attack. >> today in a bipartisan way the house demonstrated that no one is above the law. not even the president of the united states. that donald trump is a clear and present danger to our country, and that once again we honor that oath of office to protect and defend the constitution of

the united states so help us god. >> so, you know, right now the republican party, a good number of them, remain loyal to donald trump. i suspect, though, the further we get away from donald trump in the white house, people will be looking at what george conway was looking at, and that's his record. and george conway tweeted yesterday said in a little over two years, donald trump has lost the house, the senate, the presidency, and has been impeached two times. the man has wrecked republican majorities in the house and the senate. and he has split the party in half. so i find it hard to believe that this is a unifying figure

that the republican party is going to want to move forward with after donald trump is gone. >> yeah. i wonder whether what has weakened donald trump more than anything else over the last couple of weeks, more than the insurrection on capitol hill, more than the second impeachment was actually that loss in georgia which kind of got swallowed up in all the news last week. >> agreed. >> he proved he is not the winner of elections that he has always said he is. -- hasn't shown he's there guy. two-thirds of republicans still believe the election was stolen.

>> we're having trouble with your wi-fi right now. it's going in and out. we'll get back to you in a second. we'll get the wi-fi rechecked. but that is a question that you can see this coming. as my professor in torts said, you should be able to see this coming like a freight train out of the mist. republicans should have seen this coming. that this man that played to the 40%, played to the craziest elements of the party, was not going to be able to succeed politically in a nationwide effort. lost the white house. lost the senate. he's lost the house. and he's been impeached. >> and lost the popular vote twice for good measure.

he lost the senate majority, a lot of people believe, including mitch mcconnell, for republicans with his conduct, for his behavior, the way he talked about the voting being rigged in the state of georgia. it may have depressed enough votes to cost mitch mcconnell his majority. and tom nichols, that was on full display yesterday during the impeachment arguments, during the debate. you heard, yes, there were 10 republicans who voted for impeachment, most of those making difficult votes for them. but the rest of the republicans it was a marathon of what about-ism. robert de niro said something mean once about donald trump. so why are we impeaching? there were mean hashtags about president trump. what about the riots in the streets last summer, several of them said. very few of them confronted the case in front of them which a was that donald trump incited his reporters to rush the capitol, kill a capitol police officer, and threaten the lives

of the leadership of this country, including president trump's vice president. >> it was a shameful display. and it was not just the final trajectory of a republican party that sold to donald trump. but putting the republican party itself on display as an unserious group of people uncapable of governing. it was almost laughable the bit about hollywood hates us. and robert de niro wanted to punch the president. and the name-checking of kathy griffin and all the other celebrities. this is one of the most important things in the world, impeaching the commander in chief, the most powerful man in the world. and the republicans were complaining about it like they had gone pay bad deal on a reality show, which is how most of them are treating it. when joe says people should have

seen it coming, this is the part where a lot of folks were never trump early on warned a lot of it was coming. this would be the end of the republican party. this would smear conservativism because it has fallen out of the republican party. nobody is serious about ideas. and it would destroy american politics. and here we are. >> yeah. i wrote a column for the "washington post" throughout 2016 saying it was going to destroy conservatism, destroy the republican party. and cause damage to the united states of america. and where we are now, republicans didn't listen then. a few are listening now. but the impact has been devastating. i do want, though, -- we've been talking about january the 6th a lot. people that continually are

talking about january the 6th and what a blight it was, and i agree it was. but through all of that smoke and through all of that chaos and through the seditious acts we did overlook three things that happened on that day that are going to impact us the next two years even more than that riot will. the first thing is, as was brought up by katty kay, the democrats, against all odds, took control of the united states senate. it's the first thing that happened. the second thing that happened was joe biden was, in fact, certified the next president of the united states. and the third thing that happened was donald trump was forever exposed for the fascist, tyrannical president that he was and that he was aiming to be. all in all, i would say those three things happening on the same day are going to be looked

back upon as a watershed moment in american politics. and i'm just wondering if it's not a watershed moment that we won't look back on and actually not say, well, that's with when the senate wouldn't hold and things got out of control. it's actually when we had to face this country's demons and we started getting to work on cleaning things up. >> january 6th, though, will not only be remembered for the calamity that happened, i think it will be the beginning of a new era of where we go forward from here. and the question becomes whether the democrats that have now seized the senate, now they control the house, the senate, and the white house, whether they will deliver on the agenda that they told the voters they would do that ended up getting

the largest turnout of voters in the history of this country, whether they will live up to the promises that were made. if we focus only on the calamity, then we allow the democrats to escape from what they committed and mandate that they were given. i feel that it is very important that we focus on where we go from here as we rightfully investigate the calamity that happened. we want to see what biden is going to do. we want to see what schumer and pelosi will do as they drove people to the polls in unprecedented numbers. and i think if we miss that we are going to make the calamity that happened become the prelude to be disappointment that will follow. a lot of people put a lot in voting on election day hoping this would turn the tide another way. we don't want to drown in the tide we turned.

>> let me ask you a question. and i'm going to open this up to everybody because it's going to be controversial. former fbi director jim comey said yesterday that donald trump should be pardoned and should consider being pardoned and it should be put behind him. i'm not going to go that far. but let me just ask this question because i'm sure people inside the biden administration are asking this question right now. do we really want to start our presidency, do we really want to turn the page on trumpism? do we really want to start with democratic majorities in the house and in the senate, and a democratic president in the white house by being occupied by a senate trial of a guy who is out of the white house and

likely going to be prosecuted not only in the state of new york but most likely by the u.s. attorney in washington, d.c. mika, i'll start with you first. because i know -- i'm just saying, if i were inside the white house of an incoming president, i would be going, my god, okay, maybe you have to do it. this is a nightmare. we want to turn the page. we want to move forward. that's, i'm sure, how a lot of people in the biden administration are thinking. they certainly can't say it out loud, though. mika, you first >> no, we don't want to do that. and i'm sure members of the biden administration do not want to do that. but it's got to be done. i'm sorry. our country is built on principles. it's built on laws. and this president went too far. this isn't one pardon for one thing for some obscure reason that's perhaps debatable. >> i'm not talking about the impeachment trial. >> this has to continue. >> the senate, you say, even if it dominates --

>> nobody wants that. >> -- the first 100 days in the office, we need a senate trial. >> we have no choice, we as in members of the biden administration and democrats, are as bad as the republicans who supported trump. >> all right. let's go around. willie, what do you think? >> well, you're right that many in the biden administration -- and joe biden has signaled this actually when he talked about hoping they could bifurcate, let's not forget all the initiatives that he has planned. they don't love the idea. i think what people would say is you have to put a marker in history that this behavior is unacceptable and it's the only way to get to what a lot of people want to see in the democratic party, the disqualification of trump to run again in 2024, to hover over the country, to hover over our politics. you have to convict first on impeachment, and then you can have a majority vote on whether or not he's disqualified. >> katty kay, is it worth

distracting from the biden agenda the first 100 days with any democrats on the hill allow joe biden to say, you know what, he's been impeached in the house, with he don't have the votes to convict him in the senate. let's not distract from the agenda getting people back to work and taking covid on and let's leave it to the prosecutors to throw him in jail. would that work with any democrats on the hill, katty? >> it's not what joe biden wants to go through at the beginning of his term. it's hard to see how chuck shaoupler is not going to have to take up those articles when they are sent to him by nancy pelosi. we don't know when that is going to be. the problem is two-fold. first of all, there may not be the vote to convict. they may go through this and not convict. and that gives donald trump more of a voice, his supporters more a voice. second, it means we are still talking about donald trump the next few months. he is still the focus of

opinion. i think his game last night was to get his twitter account back. that's not what joe biden wants to be doing. he has no choice. >> yeah. he may have no choice. but, tom nichols, i can tell you, americans want to look forward. they don't want to look back. don't send your crappy tweets to me. i'm not reading them anyway. i'm putting this out there pause i know there are people in the biden administration that have to be thinking, oh, my god, we're going to have -- donald trump has dominated the last five years of politics, and he's going to you know what over the first 100 days of our new administration by having a trial in the united states senate that will be just as in conclusive as the last trial. tom nichols, i may not know much about politics, but i know people care a hell of a lot more about their jobs and health and what happens in their house than they do about what happens in

washington, d.c. do democrats in the senate have to impeach donald trump? >> yes, they do. and we're overthinking this. the united states of america is a super power. the senate is the world's greatest deliberative body. we are in fact, capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. the senate request take up joe biden's agenda, confirm his nominees and then in the afternoon they can invite the chief justice over, they can meet, walk through the process of impeachment. a couple of things -- >> reverend? i'm sorry. >> joe biden should not let the words donald trump pass his lips. let him get on being president. even if donald trump ends up being acquitted, every republican once again should have to go on record and cast a vote and explain why president trump should not be vanquished from american public life and

rendered of incapable of ever holding office of trust and profit in the united states again. even if it fails, it is an important part of maintaining our democratic culture. we are trying to think this too many steps ahead. he has been impeached. a trial is necessary. it can happen. joe biden can get on with the job of being president, and the senate can get on with confirming, advising, legislating, and deciding whether or not donald trump should be convicted and should ever hold office again. >> tom, let me just tell you, you're the first person who has ever accused me of thinking too much. i assure you, i am not. i am just asking a question, which i now to reverend al. we're two votes away from a unanimous vote. reverend al, should biden encourage democrats to pass on the senate trial so he can move forward with his agenda, or does he have to move forward and have

his first 50, 100 days occupied by donald trump's trial? >> they should do both at the same time. we should not do one or the other but both/and. the thing we focus on too much when we talk about the trial is on the perpetrator rather than the victims. five people died around this catastrophe. people saw law enforcement officers crushed in doors. we saw the capitol of the united states under siege. they must be accountable to that. and those that vote to say the perpetrator and the instigator should not be held accountable and should be able to hold office again, we need to make them go on the record. but at the same time, biden and others that are in his administration have to deal with, we are in the middle of a pandemic. people are dying by the thousands every day. and we need them to proceed to

start dealing with the pandemic in a responsible way, dealing with the other issues. we don't have a choice but to rise to the occasion of showing the world we can do both at the same time. protect the justice for victims and protect the american people that are still as i'm speaking, many of them on ventilators, many of them two steps away from death. some of it because of the incompetence of the same instigator of the things we ought to be trying in the u.s. senate. >> jonathan, we are not going to ask "the associated press" white house reporter whether the president should be tried in the united states senate. what i will say is this, though. that the senate trial, if it moves forward, and i'm sure it will, the senate trial is going to look for far different than the house, what we saw in the house yesterday. in part because, as i said yesterday morning, the evidence gets more damning every day. new videos are released every day.

mikey cheryl yesterday said there were members giving tours to the insurrectionists on giving them guidance on where to go after they break into the capitol. this is going to be a slow-motion train wreck. every day that passes by between now and whenever the senate trial begins, will be a day when donald trump's actions and the republican house members's actions connected with this group are going to look worse, going to look more seditious, going to look more traitorous. >> to that point first, joe, the horror has only grown the further we have gone away from the siege of the capitol. certainly also the realization things, as bad as they were, could have been that much worse. a few different turns taken by the insurrectionists.

a few acts of bravery by capitol police officers, we would have ended up with scenes of true terror from lawmakers inside that building. to the overall question about the biden approach, i have talked to people in the orbit, their focus in their public statementsis very much about starting the biden administration. in particular, getting his cabinet appointees on the job. getting them approved, confirmed, particularly starting with the national security team. they want to make sure that gets done right away. we also know that the president-elect has been unveiling his new covid-19 response and vaccination program. that is also their focus. but they recognize they can't get in the way of this. are they happy about a senate trial of donald trump dominating some of the headlines in their first days? no, of course not. they have made that clear. they saw what happened in 2008 when joe biden, as vice president, was part of a team in

the obama administration that made a decision not to pursue action from people of the george w. bush administration. it angered a lot of democrats, those on the left. that energy is so much greater this time around that we now of course have had a second impeachment of donald trump. they can't risk being seen getting in the way of that. they are fearful of losing a lot of momentum they have, the support they have that got them into office. of course let's remember this election was about joe biden. it was also about choosing not donald trump. it was a rebuke of donald trump for the presidency. and they know this is something that's not ideal but they're going to have to put up with. they want the senate to be able to do two things at once. >> okay. i appreciate the question, joe, but i would ask that you don't ask it again. because it is not a question. it is just not a question. the biden administration, joe biden, he actually can lead and he can run things. and he can do two things at once, unlike president trump who has botched this entire

presidency, killed people. either by coronavirus or by inciting a riot. so if you want to ask that question, ask it about the family of the capitol cop who was being crushed in doors and had blood gushing out of his mouth. ask the families of the cops who are dead. ask the members whose lives were threatened with death during this insurrection. joe biden needs to restore faith in our democracy. unfortunately, that will be part of his job. it will be ugly for donald trump in the weeks and months to come. >> first of all, no one should be offended by a question that is asked to spark debate. that's actually what our job is here. >> yeah. >> secondly, as i said, donald trump is going to be prosecuted most likely by the state of new york. most likely by the city of

manhattan. i would guess other jurisdictions are going to be doing that as well. so i was just asking a question. you know, i understand a lot of trump supporters are snowflakes. >> thanks. >> i don't think we should be snowflakes here. we ought to be able to ask questions. >> well, you got the answer. >> i got the answer. and you know what, i think we're better off for having asked that question. and actually listening to a free exchange of ideas. i'm not offended by it. in fact, i think i'm going to have more coffee. >> okay. that's a good thing to do. still ahead on "morning joe", we will be joined by democrats -- >> can i drink this coffee? can i ask questions? >> one of the democrats helping to lead the second impeachment effort against donald trump. congressman ted lieu joins us >> what questions should i ask him, mika? >> i'll help you out. >>. >> can you please write them down because i'm new at this.

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denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. these facts require immediate action by president trump. accept his share of responsible, quell the brewing unrest, and ensure president-elect biden is able to successfully begin his term. the greatest statesmen in the history of our country understood the most dangerous threat to freedom is lawlessness. a young lawyer named abraham lincoln famously said, there is no grievance that is a fit

object of redress by mob law. yet for several hours last week, mob hraup tried to interfere with constitutional law. some say the riots were caused by antifa. there's absolutely no evidence of that. and conservatives should be the first to say so. >> house minority leader kevin mccarthy with that rebuke of the president on the house floor yesterday. though he did vote not to impeach. mccarthy has argued for the president to be censured instead. meanwhile, members of the freedom caucus want wyoming congresswoman liz cheney to resign from her post as chair of the house republican conference. bloomberg reports that three members of the 44-member caucus began circulating a petition yesterday to force a special meeting to vote on a resolution

for her resignation. only 42 members of the house gop are required to sign the petition in order to hold the meeting. but a majority would need to vote to adopt it. that vote would take place by secret ballot. cheney responded to the effort with the following statement about her vote to impeach the president. quote, i'm not going anywhere. this is a vote of conscience. it's one where there are different views in our conference. but our nation is facing an unprecedented, since the civil war, constitutional crisis. that's what we need to be focused on. that's where our efforts and attention need to be. >> let's bring in nbc news capitol hill correspond ant and "way too early" kasie hunt. this was a very difficult vote for 10 republicans to make. but when it comes to liz cheney, they need to handle that situation with care because

right now they're pariahs. i'm not talking about the 10 people that voted against sedition. i'm talking about people like kevin mccarthy and members of the freedom caucus. if they think they are going to get any money from any companies, any corporations, any interest on k street after voting to disqualify millions and millions of black votes, to pass their own version of new jim crow laws or try to, they're out of their minds. liz cheney may be the only bridge from this crazed gop house caucus. and the respectable world. >> it's a reckoning right now, joe. what do they want to be? and kevin mccarthy in that bite we played coming in here, he tried to walk that line. he tried to say -- and i think

what he is reflecting is the deep divisions that exist, concerns about money absolutely. but had this vote been a secret ballot, all reporting indicates it would have been like 50 or 60 republicans who would have voted to impeach donald trump. we have reported extensively. some said they were afraid for their lives. others are making a political calculation and saying i don't want to take that political risk for myself. i'm not willing to go out on this limb the way liz cheney was willing to calling it a vote of conscience. he is trying to figure out how to walk that line. he has made political calculations all the way along here. he has his share of critics in how he has dealt with this president. he has been my kevin all the way

along here. this is still i think a very live issue where we go from here from this impeachment to the trial to this question whether there could be 17 republicans who may be willing to vote to convict here. mitch mcconnell is still an open question. but the video we showed at the beginning of the show underscores to me this is about what he decides to do. is donald trump going to spend the next six days actually listening to advisers who are telling him this is very real, you could be impeached for this. or is he going to continue to make statements that frankly are viewed as inflammatory, that seem to encourage the people who want to commit violence. i think there is a very real chance he will be convicted in the senate. this is a live issue on that front. that's why mitch mcconnell is being so careful here. and the other piece of this, while there is some under his control, there's a lot that's not. you saw what he said on wednesday. he has fomented violence among

his supporters. and they have said they want to go out and attack washington on the inauguration and state capitals on inauguration. if that happens and we see violence across the country it could ultimately lead to conviction for the president, joe. . >> yeah. no doubt about it. and, willie, if you look at kevin mccarthy and sort of this conversion, semi conversion he's had where he leaked i think it was to "axios", he leaked that he he said just stop it, mr. president. just stop it. yeah, like he really said that. and then mitch mcconnell tearing up on the house floor. you've talked to people who know them much better than i do. they say there's nothing they do that is not motivated by cynicism, by political considerations. and both of these breaks

happened probably within 24 hours, maybe 48 hours of some of the largest corporations in america saying, you know what, we're just not going to give money to your political outfits anymore. we're not going to give money to republican party that supports jim crow laws, the reinstatement of jim crow laws. you guys are going to try to discount black votes in all of these areas. and so after they hear that money is going to start drying up, suddenly they have this road to damascus conversion. >> yeah. let's be real clear about kevin mccarthy. he put out a statement last friday, six days ago, recognizing joe biden as the president-elect on january 8th or 9th, something like that. the 8th he put out that statement. he has been feeding the very lies that he condemned yesterday. that the president was partly to

blame. that his rhetoric needed to be calmed down. he is on fox news nearly every day the last two months talking about how this was stolen, the fight is not over, there were voting irregularities. he was at the forefront of pushing that. i think you're right to be wise to follow the money. when you see campaign coffers to dry up, when people say we don't want to be associated with this, and the fact that it took an assault on the capitol where his life, kevin mccarthy's life, nancy pelosi's life, everyone in that building were threatened, it took that for him to finally recognize that joe biden is in fact, the president-elect. and, kasie, if you look at some of these republican votes yesterday to impeach, there were 10 of them, there was a compilation put together by ali muttnick at politico where she went through the spreads, the votes. liz cheney is trump plus 43 district.

rice, plus 19. gonzalez, trump plus 14 in ohio. the list goes on. the word courage is overused. they were acts of preliminary courage with not a lot of upside other than doing the right thing. >> and that's how many of them have explained it, willie. congressman rice was a surprise to all of us. he is from a conservative area to south carolina. he is receiving blowback on facebook. and his staff frankly was taken by surprise when he did this. buff he said and explained himself as this is a vote of conscience. how could i have voted any other way? and one thing i can add about mccarthy, there does seem to be a perception that in a couple of months, everything will go back to some semblance of normal. we will fall back into our old political patterns. corporations will be distanced enough to resume giving, that it

won't really be a problem. and i have to tell you that's been kind of the assumption all the way along that republicans have applied to donald trump. let's just get through this. and eventually we will go back to normal. and it started small. you know, it started -- or smaller anyway with donald trump's comments about john mccain. other things where he crossed norms and boundaries. and republicans said, okay, that's offensive. some decried it. eventually they just started keeping their mouth shut. but things got worse and worse and worse and worse. by the time we hit this last summer, i was asking republicans about whether the president was right to use tear gas to clear lafayette square so he could engage in a photo-op with the bible. they wouldn't answer my questions. they kept walking right by me. it took the capitol mob to get this far. now they are applying the logic, eventually things will go back to normal. it is pretty remarkable to me.

but that is what i'm hearing at this point. >> all right. kasie hunt, thank you so much. we always appreciate it. and yesterday guy benson tweeted his thoughts on those republican members who were attacking liz cheney. he said if you are a republican member of congress who is angrier, or more likely, pretending to be an tkpwreuer than you are with donald trump after last week, you are broken. >> these people are broken if they can't come to terms with the fact. and tom nichols, you know, you've been watching these republicans. they have to understand the difference between right and wrong and the principles that our constitutions are based on and perhaps the oath they took. how is vice president mike pence

not looking at the 25th, recognizing his oath and standing to his oath? how are these republicans carrying out their oath of office when they continue to protect a deranged individual who happens to be president? >> they're not. that oath doesn't mean anything to them. these are the same people who swore to be impartial jurors in the senate, signed a piece of paper that said i will reach an impartial conclusion while mugging for the cameras and saying there's no way i'm going to listen to this evidence and i'm not going to reach an impartial conclusion. this is fear of the mob. this is playing to the gallery. back home and putting personal interest above the country. it's been a rash of cowardice among people who i think the tragedy is among people who

really don't believe what they're saying. you're going to have the guys like i guess gohmert, jordan or the usual crew. but, you know, when you get people like elise stefanic or others who voted against impeachment, do they really believe anything they're saying? of course not. and that's the thing that's really shocking is the depth of the opportunism and the self interest at a moment of national crisis, at a moment of national peril where there are thousands of troops on the streets of washington turning our national celebration of democracy into an armed camp as if we have been threatened by isis or al qaeda again and instead we are having to harden the inauguration against our own citizens who have been fed a diet of lies and cannot come to grips with a free and fair election because of the very people who are now saying

that we all have to get over it, move on, and achieve some kind of unity. >> at least 12 republican lawmakers have picked a new fight on capitol hill not implying with the building's metal detectors. yesterday a reporter for huff post reported a dozen gop lawmakers ignoring or side-stepping the newly installed metal detectors to the chamber. however, this could come at a hefty price. violations to the house's new security measures such as ignoring the metal detectors, will cost members $5,000 for a first offense and $10,000 for a second offense. so i don't know. they've got to wear masks too. katty kay, i don't even imagine the headlines around the world covering the united states of america as it stands right now. >> you know, dismay among

america's allies watching what's going on here over the course of the past 10 days. and gripped. we have been doing 24-hour rolling coverage from washington and the audiences have never been higher. there is a sense that america is not anymore automatically in the club of stable democracies like germany, denmark and canada. you put it more of an east european, hungary type bracket. and that is alarming. it's not just what is happening right now. it is looking forward. joe biden is coming into office, there is hope that he will restore. he has to deal with covid, the economic crisis and the fault lines that are in this country and dealing with the legacy of donald trump and everybody watching how there are still millions of americans who are supporting this president and everything he stands for.

and that's going to be a problem that joe biden is going to have to deal with. >> and reverend al, these republicans, although they play stupid on tv, aren't stupid enough to understand why the melt detectors went up. you have members of congress posed with a gun and saying they were going after members of democratic members of congress and put the pictures of those women up that she claimed to while holding a gun she was going after. you have over 100 members actually siding with those who committed sedition against the united states of america. trying to overthrow a presidential election. it's not really a reach that with all of these threats and carrying guns under the house floor that they don't need to put up metal detectors. i'll tell you what, i sure as

hell wouldn't go on the house floor if people were carrying loaded guns that have been putting out campaign ads saying they were going to target me. nobody would. >> it would have been the height of incompetence if they did not put new security procedures in given that these threats were very publicly made by people that are on the house floor, house members against others. it would also be the height of incompetence if they did not come with new security measures after they had their building taken under siege. let's not forget we're talking about people that were held up in rooms for hours not knowing if people would break through the doors. and now we are investigating whether some members of congress or their staffs help them do a walk through to figure out how to do that siege. and the third thing that is so alarming to me is that as these republicans that refused to go

through the metal detectors do that, are this he setting an example that they now can say i can decide whether i'm going through a metal detector? what starts someone from going to an airport saying i'm with them. i will decide whether i will go through a metal detector and start walking around them. if they have the right to decide as a member of congress to ignore metal detector in the house of representatives or in the capitol that was under siege, then i should have the same right at an airport. that's what they are saying to an american public and that can be dangerous all over this country >> 100%. >> jonathan, where the chaos unfolded the past week, what are the president's final days looking like in the white house from what you're hearing? >> why can't we hear him?

>> we lost his audio. we'll get back to him at the top of the hour. >> mitch mcconnell is rebuffing democratic calls for a speedy trial. but it seems he also hasn't ruled out convicting trump either. plus, the president has less than a week left in the white house. so what is next for a man whose brand and business empire appear to be crumble something stephanie ruhle joins us with that. "morning joe" is back in a moment. "morning joe" is back in a moment

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the president took an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. last week there was a domestic threat at the door of the capitol, and he did nothing to stop it. that is why with a heavy heart and clear resolve i will vote yes on these articles of impeachment.

>> now, my vote to impeach our sitting president is not a fear-based decision. i'm not choosing a side. i am choosing truth. it is the only way to defeat fear. >> two of the hour republicans who broke with party to vote in favor of an unprecedented second impeachment of president donald trump. welcome back to "morning joe". sit thursday, january 14th. the bbc's katty kay is still with us. and joining the conversation we have msnbc national affairs analyst, executive editor of the recount and co-host and executive producer of show time's "the circus." politics professor at morgan state university. and political contributor jason johnson is with us. and "usa today" opinion columnist and former senior adviser for the house oversight and government reform committee curt bardella. senior adviser to the lincoln

project. >> we heard from two republicans who voted to impeach a sitting republican president. even if that sitting republican president is donald trump, and even if they are lightly impeaching him for committing insurrection against the united states of america, that still, again, people don't want to hear this. even though it's the right thing to do and that's what every republican should do, that is still a career-defining vote that will most likely, i would guess, get at least nine out of ten voted out in the next election. >> well -- good morning, joe. or potentially primaried. >> yeah, primaries. >> yeah. especially for a lot of these younger members of the house, the freshman in that group, you know, it's a vote of enormous

courage. and that's something also something people don't want to hear. in my feed yesterday people were saying there is no courage. you should be doing the right thing. to which i say yes it should be expected of everybody. impeachments are very rare. we have seen two in one year with donald trump this is a very uncommon thing. every vote on impeachment that anybody is compelled to take is extraordinarily unusual thing to have to do, to have to do it as a freshman congressperson coming in is a high degree of pressure. and, you know, in a caucus that is -- that puts you on the extreme minority in your caucus. to go out in which your political life is going to be on the line. it takes a lot of guts to go out there and be in that group of 10. if we want to create a political culture that rewards doing the

right thing and taking courageous votes, we should not think lightly of the 10 republicans who stepped up and doing the right thing. they should be congratulated for showing political courage in doing it. i think you're right. what we are seeing, you know, in both chambers, you know, and you guys talked about the liz cheney thing this morning already. we have said that what happened last wednesday even before it descended into chaos and attempted coup, sacking of the capitol, we knew it would be the beginning of the republican civil war. and we're seeing it now playing out as the republicans exercise their own kind of cancel culture against liz cheney and try to drive here out of a leadership position. that battle in the house caucus, when we get to the senate trial, we will see it there too with republicans which side are you on. and i know you guys talked about it already this morning. but i do think that's one of the

many virtues of having to have the senate trial is going to be within the republican party for those who care about it being a viable modern party going forward. you need to have this vote not just for accountability, not just for precedent, not just to let fascists, as you have called them many times, let fascists know there is a price to pay for violent fascism. for republicans who want to fix their party, we need to know which is on which side. that should move to the house to the senate. we need to know which republicans are on which side of this fundamental divide that now exists in our political lives. >> adam kensinger went on tv yesterday and said basically, look, i don't know what my future holds. maybe i'll lose my job. maybe they will vote me out because of this. but he said i'm at peace.

i will sleep well voting the way i did. kasie reported from her background, it might have been 50 or 60 members if it were a secret ballot. he said something about political courage and taking a hard vote, you hold town halls and you explain it to people. in your experience it worked. >> it worked. i voted against four articles of impeachment against bill clinton. i voted against two of those four. i was from a district jerry falwell called one of the most conservative in america. there were a lot of angry people wondering why i didn't vote for impeachment all four times. i held a ton of townhall meetings from the very start. went in there, sat there, talked to them. a lot of them would be angry. i would keep talking to them.

but i did require that, you know, if they wanted to talk to me, if they wanted to hear why i voted the way i did, we had respectful conversations. i've got to say, that's the first part of it. the second part is if somebody is not going to talk to you respectfully, if you stay in there and they keep yelling at you, well, you know what, you can walk away from them. but you focus on those who genuinely who are upset and say i don't understand why you voted the way you did. and there are a lot of those people out there. and i always found that whatever i did, if i held townhall meetings and i communicated with my constituents and worked hard for them, it always turned out well. i had an opponent after i voted no on two articles of impeachment for bill clinton, they put up billboards.

vote to impeach clinton? joe voted no. it was such an effective strategy that i only got 80% of the vote in that primary. and i am still scratching my head, still a little angry wondering where that other 20% went, willie. but it's amazing what happens if you sit, mika, if you go and you talk to your constituents and you have a respectful conversation with them. just look at mark sandford. when he got into personal trouble he went and he just talked to all of his constituents one by one. of course they then voted him out because he only voted with donald trump 92% of the time. but there is no substitute for -- so for these 10 members, communicate with your people. talk to the people who are upset. go back. don't be scared of them. hold townhall meetings. the first five may be explosive. they will come and they will

talk to you and you guys will have a better relationship because of it in the end. >> i can't count the number of people who have come up to joe and engaged in a debate with him. and he has stayed in it. polite, kind, trying to understand. people want to be heard. they can be validated without you agreeing with them. a lot of the republicans are afraid. that is a bad position to be in. if he becomes the first president ever to be impaoefpltd twice, donald trump is blaming others for his actions. "washington post" reports trump's inner circle is shrinking even smaller. he is upset that no one is defending him. he even turned his ire on rudy giuliani. he reportedly told aides not to pay rudy giuliani's legal fees. >> who would ever see that coming? >> i'm just shocked. which were as high as $20,000 a day. he wants personally to approve

any reimbursements for giuliani, two traveled the country losing lawsuit after lawsuit. overall, trump was upset that virtually nobody is defending him as the impeachment process gained steam. trump's second impeachment looked very different from his first as the white house didn't put out any talking points or have any of the staff out there to defend him. he also hasn't put together a legal team for a senate trial which would likely feature giuliani as few are refusing to take the case. even if you are his staunchest stooge, even if you were so afraid of not getting re-elected, it's really hard to stand by an insurrection of the capitol when thousands of people

stormed it. there is video inside of people mapping out the area looking to kill speaker pelosi, mike pence and trashing offices and trying to figure out how to take the building. and video after video after video is coming out from inside the capitol. it is an insurrection and attempted coup that is not aging well. who would want to stand next to the president and say, yeah, i stand with that guy? >> had i'll tell you, mika, i don't envy the josh hawleys and ted cruzs of the world for the positions they have staked out. the more that we have learned about the capitol siege, the more dangerous it looks. this was not a peaceful protest. the violence we saw wasn't just a few bad apples and a broader crowd. this was a planned, deliberate effort and the intentions of these people, of this violent mob was to cause irreparable

harm to elected members of congress. and i'll tell you, that rudy anecdote was interesting. i hope all of these republicans who are considering defending donald trump, voting against impeachment, i hope they're watching. because he will turn on you. you will go down in history. your name will be affixed forever as a trump defender, defending a seditionist, insurrectionist. at the end of the day, he will turn his back on you. he will not pay his legal fees for you. whatever you think you extracted for your unending loyalty to donald trump, he will not ultimately fulfill them. he will turn from you and you will be left holding the back with a soiled reputation for the rest of your life. it blows me away to this day there are republicans who think they are the exception from the rule.

sessions, michael cohen. that is the ship they want to go down in? after everything we have seen, after everything we know, they think somehow they might be the exception, that he may give a blessing to take over the party in 2024. that is never going to happen. and all that will be left is in a footnote of what i think should be an easy decision, to hold him accountable for insurrection or not, they deserve the historical fate they are going to put themselves in. >> it is truly amazing to watch people who think loyalty is a two-way street with donald trump. after having watched the last 74 years of donald trump's life. jason johnson, he has been impeached twice. these articles will be pushed to the senate. they are scheduled for the 19th,

on the eve of president-elect biden's inauguration. how do you see this playing out? speculation, nobody knows, that mitch mcconnell is happy to let this go away. but there is also the possibility that he gives cover by saying he is open to conviction, to other republicans who may want to convict. it is hard to see 17 republicans voting to convict president trump. so how is this going to play out. how important do you believe it is for democrats to push out with this trial? >> i think it will have a lot to do with how the inauguration plays out. there is enough political interest to make sure when chuck schumer takes over leadership, there will be an impeachment trial, they vote for removal. at that point we are assuming donald trump is out of the white house. the president's own behavior is a difference. if next week turns out to be hearing what it might be. everybody here is terrified. everybody here is trying to lock

down their homes. if there's another attack, if there's violent protests similar to what we saw two weeks before the counting of the electoral votes, i think it will be much more difficult for mitch mcconnell to be an obstructionist after the inauguration and say i don't know if this is necessary. if we see more violence, damage, more people will want to do this. if donald trump decides i don't want to leave the white house, if he has to be dragged out by marines or something to that extent, i think it will increase the passion. what mitch mcconnell want, they just want this to go away. with all of these disingenuous calls of unity. the best way to make the argument is if donald trump and all supporters make that easy next week. when has donald trump ever made anything easy for mitch mcconnell? >> i don't know. a massive effort is under way to secure d.c. ahead of inauguration day.

local and federal officials say 20,000 members of the national guard are expected to arrive in the nation's capitol. that's four times higher than the number of troops stationed in iraq and afghanistan combined. by january 20th when president-elect biden will take the office. they led tabletop exercises and coordinated between local police, national guard troops and federal personnel who are all expected to fan out across washington ahead of protests this weekend and on inauguration day. boy, between that and the coronavirus, this is going to be a very different type of inauguration. president-elect biden and his national security aides reportedly received briefings from the fbi and secret service officials and are now expected to receive regular security updates. airbnb announced it was blocking and canceling all bookings in the washington, d.c. area during the week of inauguration.

facebook has teen an uptick in violent content contesting the presidential election, including digital flyers featuring calls to arms, some with insignias of militant or hate groups. speaking to politico, two national guardsmen said that units are preparing for the event that individuals could use improvised explosive devices to attack the capitol. meanwhile, congressional democrats are calling for investigations into whether some members of congress were complicit in the mob attack on the capitol after seeing groups of people in the building the day before the assault. >> it was so odd to see me. he said the only way these people could have gone into the capitol complex was that member

or members' staff. we know they had inside knowledge of the capitol grounds. >> led my new jersey democrat and former navy pilot mikie sherrill. requesting answers about the public access to the capitol on january 5th, the day before the attack. the capitol has been closed to the public since march. the "new york times" reports the capitol police said it was opening a potentially wide-ranging inquiry into security breaches connected to the siege. the government accountability office, a nonpartisan watch dog agency signaled it would look into what role, if any, members of congress may have played in inciting the mop of trump supporters. according to the taoeupls, colorado democrat jason crow, former army officer, initiated

the request for the gsa investigation, later joined by 107 of his colleagues. joe, just putting this bluntly and laying it out clearly, are we talking about members of congress helping in reconnaissance mapping out of the capitol the day before the attack? >> that's what congresswoman mikey cheryl believes and wants it investigated at the very least. we have seen video released the last few days that show people that have broken in actually have a working knowledge of the tunnels and working knowledge and knew exactly where they wanted to go. so, katty kay, people have been talking about, a, quote, inside job from the beginning. and we have to look at whether there were members of congress that were involved in this, whether there were capitol hill police officers who were sympathetic to the rioters and

assisted them in any way. and of course the news this morning that you retweeted, two virginia police officers have been put up on federal charges for being part of those riots. >> yeah. the two virginia police officers were posting a photograph that they took of themselves on their own social media sites. there is an investigation going on. they were boasting on social media about how we're not worried our photo is doing the rounds because we were just there defending freedom. and then at one point they were talking about attacking the capitol as well. another one in texas too. a young police officer in texas. amongst the rioters, numerous veterans. we saw them. and now it seems security and police forces as well.

you think back to the summer and black lives matter protests and the brutal of some members of the u.s. police forces. now you see some of those people on capitol hill part of this insurrection mob, it fuels a notion that there are two americas. one america for white people and one america and one police force for black people too. and seeing members of the police force bragging about this insurrection is stunning. there's going to have to be an internal investigation that goes on because of this. >> of all the investigations, this may be the most important part of the investigations. taking a look at capitol hill

police officers, police across the area. they will have to look inward and see if a larger number of white supremacists are becoming parts of the united states military. there have been problems in germany. there have been reports the last month or so military leaders are concerned that may be happening in the united states as well. john, let's talk about members of qanon with their own caucus and. jesus said the poor will always be among us. i can tell you the crazies will always be among us in political culture. i remember when i was running in 1994 i would hear a lot of crazy talk. and a lot everybody would laffit off and say whatever. but they were a little

disregarded. it's been super charged by a president who has been promoting that radicalism over the past four years and by facebook. facebook has been pushing conspiracies, twitter has. all the social media outlets have. while crazy conspiracy theorists have always been with us. you have people in congress who believe tom hanks and other stars want to kidnap mow left, and cannibalize children. i can't believe i just said that. but, yes, they are in congress now. >> joe, look, you have two members of the house of representatives associated with qanon. and are -- i jokingly call them the qanon caucus.

it's not like it has gone without notice that this is about to happen. the implications, the significance of it have not sunk in for people. the elite part of our political culture is aware how large and how pervasive it has become in the country. and it's like journalist is just starting to get its arms around what this thing is. what it believes. the fact that it is in fact, violent and insurrectionist in some ways at its core. and to have two members of the house having been former -- they claim now they are away from the qanon cult but long time adhereents of that view. you had a situation last wednesday, in addition to mikie sherrill, aoc was on live stream and said in the middle of the mayhem last wednesday, as she

feared for her life, she was looking at points of entrance in the egress and looking how to escape on the basis of seeing some of these members of congress in certain places and saying, i don't feel safe going that way because i don't trust those members who are outfront white supremacists or members of qanon. i don't trust them not to make a phone call and identify and give my location to the rioters, to the insurrectionists. think about what that does to the culture on capitol hill to have members of color looking at their fellow members -- across the partisan aisle but outfront white supremacists, outfront believers in the qanon conspiracy. think what that does culturally within the house and think about what it means for the republican party that we now have ultimate elected adherence of views that are this outside what was once the mainstream, these are

becoming mainstream views in the republican party. it points to the great danger is, we are heading into an era -- i talked about it yesterday on the show. it is my great fear. in which political violence in america becomes more normalized. i think that is the great challenge ahead of us. >> there is an old saying that says in washington, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody is not out to get you. that doesn't apply to aoc. because she's not being paranoid. neither are other members of the so-called squad being paranoid when donald trump is inciting crowds telling them to go back where they came from. when a sitting member of congress, please, you have a lot of stuff coming at you every day. just put down the spoon for a second. cheerios will be there when you're done. i want you to contemplate this. a sitting member of congress ran

a political advertisement where she was holding a gun and she said she was going after democratic members of congress when she got elected. and of course aoc was one of those targets. i'm sure the others were the squad members. so does aoc and other members of the squad and nancy pelosi, well, mike pence kind of got a taste of it on insurrection day on january the 6th. do they have a reason to be fearful for their life? are they being paranoid? are they being -- no. no. just imagine if you had to go to work today and you had a member working in your office that had

sent an email around and somebody -- co-employee was carrying a gun and said i'm coming after you and had your picture up there. would you feel safe going to work? would you go to h.r. and say, i think this person needs to be fired? and if they couldn't be fired, you probably would want metal detectors up because they have already threatened to kill you. and a week after an insurrection took place, republican members with this as a background, they're pissed off that they've got to walk through metal detectors? what planet are these people on? they laugh when they are locked in a room with a cancer survivor who politely asks them to put on masks and now she has covid.

who are these people? as my grandmother would ask from dalton, georgia, were they raised in a born? this isn't about politics. it's about being consider at. this is about being just a decent human being. what has happened to these people. and a lot of them claim to be christians! i see no parallel between the words that my children and i read in the gospels of jesus christ and the actions of these people. they can't act the way they do and hide behind abortion. somehow discussing reducing christianity down to abortion. they can't do it.

they can't justify other hateful, vile, unchrist-like behavior. donald trump, he gives a speech last night, thank god. i don't care why he did it. glad he finally did it. but, curt, he was asked about qanon in a press conference and said -- said many people in qanon believe that you were their savior, that you were their champion against a liberal elite, global conspiracy of cannibals who are child molesters. will you condemn that conspiracy theory? >> the president said, well, i think it's good to be seen as a champion against that. he wouldn't condemn the conspiracy then. he won't condemn the conspiracy now. and so here we are with riots on

capitol hill. and a growing conspiracy, that group, that the president fueled over his four years in office. >> you know, when republicans took to the floor yesterday and defended their votes against impeachment and said this is the time to unify. we need to move forward and come together, i don't know about you but i can't night with people who believe these crazy things. i can't unite with someone who claims white nationalist values. i can't unite with someone who is an outward racist. this is fundamentally i reconcilable. for republicans to continue this charade, let's pretend the last

four years didn't happen, let's pretend they haven't been part and parcel to the fuel that sieged the capitol, that is the biggest example of hypocrisy that we have seen from republicans so far. we all need to weigh the cost of doing nothing. when people like the default leader of the republican party refuses to condemn these why would and crazy conspiracy theories, let me tell you something, those people who choose anarchy and insurrection over peace and unity, those people think that they are getting the signal that it's okay to do what they do. that there is validation in what they believe. that their actions last wednesday were appropriate and they should do it more. they see it as encouragement. republicans don't hold people accountable who lead this, who knowment violence, call for trial by combat. when given the pass, to them that is a signal they should keep doing what they are doing it, ratchet it up and intensify

it. nobody should be surprised, while shocking it is to see it happening, no one should be surprised that it got to this point when time and again elected republican officials in this country have given these people a pass, have given them validation, have refused to outright condemn them. i wish these republicans would be as forth right and direct about these people as they are about their displeasure with twitter or with social media, or unhappiness about metal detectors. when i saw these republicans complain and cry about feeling squared for their life that they voted for impeachment, welcome to the daily life of aoc. >> of aoc. >> welcome to the daily life of these people that have been the target for years. every time i come on a show like this and talk about this, i get threats sent to me. i get racial hatred, animus sent to me. that is nothing new for us who have been here four years

fighting this fight. for republicans hiding behind that fight is such an act of cowardice. >> curt, thank you. we really do appreciate it. mika, you would think that if there were any conservatives left in the house of representatives other than liz cheney -- and, by the way, again, i went to congress because i believed in balanced budgets, in reducing the federal debt. i believed in being responsible with taxpayer money. they would move past conspiracy theories and start talking about conservative principles again. something they haven't been able to do the past four years. they have a president who is whack-o. who gave to hillary clinton nine times and eliot spitzer and kamala harris as recently as 2014 and is not conservative. i have been saying it since 2015. he's not conservative. so he's going. so why talk about conspiracy theories when you can talk about

american conservatism. if you believe that that is what can save america, then stop talking about conspiracy theories, stop creating phony culture wars, and start talking about the conservativism of kirk, burk, buckley, regan, of margaret thatcher. have that debate and get out of never neverland. >> or just do your job and honor your oath of office and protect our nation. still ahead on "morning joe", more and more companies are cutting ties with the president and his personal businesses. stephanie ruhle joins with us new reporting on how trump may be in trouble financially. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back. joe". we'll be right back.

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joe". democratic congressman ted lieu of california. congressman will serve as one of the nine impeachment managers in the upcoming senate trial. congressman, good morning. good to have you with us. i want to talk about the senate trial in a moment. i want to pick up on a conversation we were having in our last segment. you were one of the signatories of this that mikie sherrill was talking about yesterday. you saw suspicious groups on the eve of the attack of january 6th being given tours of the capitol. suspicious because tours have been shut down, large groups being led around the halls of congress perhaps the accusation

goes performing some kind of reconnaissance on the capitol. did you see these suspicious groups? >> i personally did not see them. but we do know from various reports there was a lot of different suspicious activities happening. and no one is above the law. not the president, not the president's attorney and not any members of congress. so if any members of congress are suspected of violating the law, the fbi needs to investigate and there needs to be a far and wide-ranging investigation. >> is it your understanding, congressman, that these were fellow members of congress leading these tours? >> that is my understanding. or at least they got the groups to have the ability to go and tour. >> do you know which congressmen or women it was? >> i do not. but we are calling for a far and wide-reaching investigation. which, by the way, also needs to include whether any of these

members of congress helped in cite an insurrection, which is a federal crime and felony. again, we need law enforcement to investigate everyone, members of congress should not be excluded. >> that is a criminal act. let's talk about the trial ahead of you next week. mitch mcconnell will bring the senate back not before the january 19th date, which is next tuesday. how are you viewing this trial? there's been some debate that joe biden may not want to be mired in the legacy of donald trump to begin his term in office the following day on january 20th. what is your strategy heading in? >> let me first say i served active duty in the u.s. military because i believe america is an exceptional country. yesterday was a very sad day. we should never have to impeach our president. and certainly never have to do it twice. but when the commander in chief

insights a violent mob that attacks our capitol and results in multiple deaths, congress is left with no other option. that's why there is a bipartisan impeachment of donald trump yesterday. now calling on mitch mcconnell to have the trial as soon as possible. and what is the senate doing that is so important and so urgent right now? nothing. they're at home. they can have a trial on friday. they could have it next monday. so we're calling for senator mcconnell to bring it out to have a trial. >> do you anticipate this trial perhaps being speedier than previous trials just because of the fact that joe biden would like to turn the corner and not think about donald trump and not have the eclipse the beginning of his administration? >> so i'm a former prosecutor. first i want to say we don't discuss strategy in public. but, second, the biden administration will be inaugurated january 20th. nothing is going to stop that.

and that is why you see a lot of anger and rage out there. and all donald trump has to say to calm tensions down is one sentence. the election was not stolen. if he would simply tell that truth we wouldn't need 20,000 national guard in d.c. we wouldn't have 50 state capitals now under potential attack. i'm calling for gop leaders and donald trump to just say that one sentence, the election was not stolen. >> that's a sentence he did not say in that taped statement yesterday. congressman jason johnson is here and has a were question. jason? >> congressman, these are the reports we have heard so far. we have heard that there may have been members of congress tweeting about nancy pelosi's location during the insurrection. we have reports from the "boston globe" from ayanna pressley's office saying panic buttons were taken. and mysterious tours the day

before the insurrection. i'm going to ask a simple workplace culture. how on earth do you go about the business of legislation when you have thieves in the temple? what is being said amongst your caucus now about their mere comfort in going back and doing the business of the american people when they know or believe right now the people who they are working with on the other side who are trying to have them harmed, killed or bare minimum kidnapped? >> that is a great point. this is not like we have a dispute over what the proper corporate tax rate is. we're talking about our colleagues who appear to appear to have helped in cite an insurrection. this mop was trying to assassinate speaker pelosi, hang vice president pence. they were hunting for lawmakers. they killed a uniformed police officer and they injured dozens more. imagine if they got their hands

on any really liberal democratic member of congress what they would have done to that person. and so this is a very difficult time for all of us in america. and particularly the members who were threatened and feel threatened. and we have to have a reckoning. and i don't know what we're going to do with some of these republican members that helped in cite this. but i do know they need to walk through the damn metal detectors and if they don't, they will be fined some money. >> there is a whole story about law makers and members of their staff who have been completely traumatized by what happened to them and had no time since then to do anything but keep working. and nancy pelosi, my god, god bless her for what she's doing and how she's keeping going at this point. this has been a trauma to our country, to our democracy, but also to the very people who work in the capitol who go to work now, number one, wondering if

they're going to get shot. and apparently some members of congress who want to pack while they're working on the floor. and number two, get coronavirus from these idiots who defy science and won't wear masks. who are these people? because they are not patriots. they're not doing their job. now, outside of politics, a growing number of businesses are actually distancing themselves from president trump in the wake of last week's riot. yesterday mayor bill de blasio made this announcement first on "morning joe". >> here to announce that the city of new york is severing all contracts with the trump organization. our legal team has done an assessment, and the contracts make very clear if a company and the leadership of that company is engaged in criminal activity we have the right to sever the

contract. inciting an insurrection, let's be clear, i'll say it again, clearly constitutes criminal activity. >> obviously. and joining us now nbc news senior business correspondent and msnbc anchor stephanie ruhle with more. stephanie, what's going on? >> reporter: bill de blasio is just the first. think about what we have seen since these riots. a number of companies pulling donations from republican lawmakers. some pausing donations entirely. it's not just happening here in new york city. trump's hotel in washington, d.c., that's owned by the government. there is a lot of disputes over whether trump should be able to get that 60-year lease. because he was in office, he was basic live given a pass. he will be out of office in a week. more and more questions are being raised following the riots should we be doing business with the trump organization? remember this, mika, the president owes hundreds of

millions of dollars to deutsche bank and others. they announced, no, sir, we are not going to be doing any business with you. put all of this aside. think about where the president's businesses lie. in leasher and hospitality. industries that have been hurt very badly by covid. obviously, that's not necessarily the president's fault. but all of that goodwill, all of that favor currying, think about who has been at mar-a-lago, his hotels the last four years, lobbyists, foreign governments, businesses throwing their conferences and affairs because they are trying to get in good favor with the president. who wants to get in good favor with president trump right now? absolutely no one. you are not seeing even senior republicans, former republican presidents say any of those rioters were republicans. yet the president has continued to standish with them even if he makes a statement on tv saying you're not with me. everyone knows that's his crew. and the fact that the president

is in this much debt and doesn't have any clear way that he will be making money going forward, i spoke to a bank ceo and a former administration official yesterday that said one of the reasons this impeachment is so important is because you have a person in a very bad situation politically and very bad situation financially. what could he be willing to do, trade in order to secure himself financially? he has a lot of power and influence even in just the last week. >> like the deutsche bank, the money he owes, what happens to the loans? how do they get it back? >> reporter: well, here's what's interesting much the president has personally guaranteed these loans. trump tower, mar-a-lago, any of his properties. he could be in a situation where the properties get seized by deutsche. we don't know if that is going to happen. he is certainly not in a good situation. and the only clear place where we know he has a pile of cash is the money he raised from people

who are willing to donate to fight the election results, which some people are suing to get back. >> oh, wow. stephanie ruhle, thank you very much. keep us posted on all of that. and of course we'll see you at 9:00 a.m. right after "morning joe". all right. >> john, i see the outside world closing in on donald trump. you hear stephanie's reporting. you read about the no-fly list, people getting kicked off planes. there are entities that want nothing to do with him, the city of new york citing obvious criminal activity. why is washington so broken? why can't they agree on one thing that donald trump incited a riot and endangered the lives of everybody on capitol hill? >> well, you know, this speaks to the depth of the divide in

our political culture. in some ways it's not surprising. we'll see how it turns out. i'm with you on the necessity of the senate trial. we'll see where that comes out, whether in the end there will be accountability for donald trump. that's a question that will sit with those republican senators and mitch mcconnell. i will say this, playing off what stephanie talked about, i think there's -- it's been a terrible week reflecting on what happened last wednesday. one sign that's encouraging is the way in which the private sector is stepping up. they're stepping up not just with respect to donald trump and seeing that the president will have these financial and business difficulties coming out because there are businesses, the economic, financial impact for what he's done, becoming a pariah through the totally fair mechanisms of the free market that conservatives like to lionize. that's one thing. it's broader than that. we're starting to see big american companies who have

said, you know what? we can't put more money into the political system and put donations on people who tried to -- who took votes that instigated this coup, who tried to overturn and american election, tried to disenfranchise tens of millions of votes. if we sign up to black lives matter and we're a big american corporation how can we write checks to republicans who tried to disenfranchise black votes all over the country. what you're seeing in the private sector response, how you're seeing big companies finally waking up to their responsibility in this giant cultural and political war we're in the middle of, it's the one bright spot we've seen in the last week. if we can get the corporate sector setting the right kind of economic incentives for the right kind of political behavior, we have a little more hope in getting through this difficult period intact.

>> as you know for donald trump, the brand is everything. it's always been that way. whether it's on the side of a building on new york city, on steaks, vodka, the bottled water you get at a 5-year-old's birthday party at wollman's skate park, the brand is everything. the brand is already toxic after this capital attack, certainly is to so many partners as we've seen in new york city, on social media, across the business world. what is the way forward? what does the post-presidency look like for a man who fancies himself a brand expert? >> the irony is he ran for the presidency to enhance his brand, improve his businesses financial prospects. now as he's leaving in the space of the last week or two he seems to be doing even more irreparable damage to that

brand. the deutsche bank stuff is crushing to him financially because he has personally secured those loans. i think personally it's the pulling of the pga tour from the new jersey property, he was looking forward to that is my understanding. he feels crushed and disappointed by that. donald trump goes back to mar-a-lago and tries to keep in contact with his base. he'll have to do it through a media organization, but everything i heard in that video he put out last night was partly speaking to mitch mcconnell about the senate trial but the whole last minute of it is about censorship. he is looking to keep his base happy and it's much harder to do that. he has to figure out how to do that while the senate trial is happening so he feels like he still has a voice in it.

coming up, number three house republican liz cheney hits back at those calls for her to resign after voting in favor of impeachment. we're back in just a moment. when they told me my work wasn't essential walls enclosed around me with the words “you can't do this” tattooed to its surface. an unshakable feeling. pressure that swelled beyond my capable strength. how do i break through...alone?

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the incursion of the u.s. capitol struck at the heart of our republic. >> we're going to walk down to the capitol! >> i unequivocally condemn the violence that we saw last week. >> because you'll never take back our country with weakness. >> no true supporter of mine could ever endorse political violence. >> you have to show strength and you have to be strong. >> whether you are on the right or on the left, a democrat or a republican there is never a

justification for violence. >> the radical left knows exactly what they're doing, they're ruthless and it's time that somebody did something about it. >> like all of you i was shocked and deeply saddened by the calamity at the capitol last week. >> and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. >> two speeches from the president, one got him impeached. the other he hopes will get him acquitted. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday january 14th. along with joe, willie and me we have white house reporter for the associated press. jonathan lamere. what do you call him? scrubbing bubbles or something? >> no. it's not him. we'll get to it. it's nichols. >> washington anchor for bbc

world news america, katty kay joins us and the host of politics nation and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton joins us this morning. and scrubbing bubbles, columnist at "usa today" and contributing writer for "the atlantic" tom nichols. >> he watches and tweets about hours and hours of crazy republican sedicious speeches on the house floor. we don't have to do it. willie, i'm curious, what was your take on donald trump's speech last night? >> first of all, i would like a full investigation into the last 30 seconds of the show. the scrubbing bubbles. >> it's my fault. >> my reaction is too little too late. he said the right words, obviously he's feeling the pressure. obviously a lawyer who is not named rudy giuliani, some lawyer

got to him and said you better get out on the record explicitly and clearly and condemn the violence. so that was -- his audience was for future juries, for courts, but also mitch mcconnell. mitch mcconnell has a season to make now that the house has voted to impeach. is he lead republicans and caucus in voting to convict? he's talking to mitch mcconnell, somebody who reportedly he hasn't talked to in several weeks. that was a plea saying look, mitch, i condemned the violence. here i am doing the thing a lot of people say i haven't done and should have done much sooner. please have mercy on me. in his last six days president trump is trying to save himself beginning with that speech. >> jonathan, tell me, what reports are you getting out of the white house? what was the speech -- obviously -- it seems to me we talked about it last night.

you know what makes the most sense to me is something that you brought up in our conversation that it didn't have to do anything to do with politics, it was more about liability. my god, the liability this guy could face after he leaves the white house and good luck trying to get the supreme court to say inciting a riot and insurrection is somehow protected. and he'd be somehow immune from that sort of activity because it was in the course of regular duties as president. sedition is not in the course of regular duties as president. i'm sure he had lawyers that he probably finally paid who said, buddy, it's going to be a long, cold, dark winter after you leave the white house. you will have lawsuits coming out your left and right for this. >> there's no question what fueled the president's

about-face here is exactly that. according to our reporting he's deeply concerned about the civil cases he could face after leaving the white house, that he could be held responsible for inciting that violence.deeply w and that marks the shift in tone. we can report last night the president was talking to advisers wondering if that was the right decision, if he had gone too far with his video. >> great. >> because he didn't want to alienate his supporters. >> the terrorists. >> yes. the terrorists. the insurrectionists. the second impeachment hearing, let's know that half of all the impeachments carried out in the united states belong to donald trump. that is a remarkable -- that first line now in his political obituary. he's concerned about his immediate future. he knows if convicted, and that remains uncertain. it's a toss-up on whether he

will be removed from office or not. if so the senate would also vote on a measure to prevent him from ever holding federal office again which would deny a chance of a 2024 run. he's banking on that, at least the perception that he's still political viable, that he's the gop kingmaker to fuel his immediate future. right now he lost his twitter account. he lost his fund-raising list. he lost, he fears, his hold over the party despite poll numbers that suggest he's still popular with republicans. he needs to maintain those things to stay relevant, which he craves most of all, to be talked about, to be on cable, for people to be tweeting about him and writing about him, but also to make money. he'll leave the white house in about a week with real concerns about his financial future. new york city severed contracts with him. pga golf severed contracts with him. he believes this is an effort to prevent him from making money and staying relevant. that speech yesterday an appeal

to mitch mcconnell no doubt but also to try to ease his reentry to the world after leaving the white house. >> it's been hard to track what he's done in this presidency right, one thing he can do is get impeached. i wasinciting, the final vote, 232-197. unlike the first impeachment which had no republican support, ten members of the president's own party voted to impeach making it the most bipartisan impeachment in u.s. history. jonathan lemire wrote this yesterday. his place in the history books rewritten. president donald trump endured his second impeachment largely alone and silent. for more than four years trump has dominated the national discourse like no one before him. yet when his legacy was set in

stone on wednesday he was stunningly left on the sidelines. trump now stands with no equal. the only president to be charged twice with a high crime or misdemeanor, a new coda for a term defined by the nation's deepening divides. his failures during the worst pandemic in a century and his refusal to accept defeat at the ballot box. before signing the single article of impeachment, house speaker nancy pelosi spoke from the same lectern that was stolen from her office in last week's attack. >> today in a bipartisan way the house demonstrated that no one is above the law, not even the president of the united states. that donald trump is a clear and present danger to our country, and that once again we honored our oath of office to protect and defend the constitution of

the united states so help us god. >> you can see this coming. as my professor said, you should be able to see this coming like a freight train out of the mist. republicans should have seen this coming. that this man that played to the 40%, played to the craziest elements of the party was not going to be able to succeed politically in a nationwide effort. he lost the white house. he lost the senate. he's lost the house. he's been impeached twice over the past two years. >> lost the popular vote twice as well for good measure. mitch mcconnell obviously is very angry with the president for georgia. he lost the senate majority a lot of people believe including mitch mcconnell for republicans with his conduct and behavior, the way he talked about the voting being rigged in the state of georgia.

that may have depressed enough votes to cost mitch mcconnell his majority. he's not been a good influence broadly on his party. tom nichols that was on full display yesterday during the debate when you heard, yes, there were ten republicans who voted for impeachment, most making very difficult votes, for the rest of the republicans it was a marathon of what-about-ism. robert de niro said something mean once about trump. what about the riots last summer in the streets? very few of them confronted the case in front of them, which was donald trump urged his supporters to rush the capitol, kill a capitol police officer and threaten the lives of those in the capitol including the vice president. >> it was not just the

republican party that sold its soul to donald trump, but putting the republican party itself on display as an unserious group of people incapable of governing. if there was not so much at stake it was almost laughable, the whole bit about hollywood hates us, robert de niro wanted to punch the president, the name checking of kathy griffin, all the other celebricelebrities. this is one of the most important things in the world, impeaching the commander in chief. most powerful man in the world. the republicans were complaining about it like they had gotten a bad deal on a reality show. which is how most of them are treating it. i think, you know, when joe says people should have seen it coming. this is the part where where a lot of folks who were not trump early on warned everybody that it was coming. all of us said this would be the end of the republican party.

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americans want to look forward, they don't want to look back. don't send your crappy tweets to me because i'm not reading them any way. i'm putting this out there because i know there's people in the biden administration that have to be thinking, oh, my god, we'll have donald trump -- donald trump dominated the last five years of politics and he'll

you know what over the first 100 days of our new administration by having a trial in the united states senate that will probably be just as inconclusive as the last trial? tom nichols, i may not know much about politics, i know people care a hell of a lot more about their jobs and about their health and about what happens in their house than they do about what happens in washington, d.c. the do democrats in the senate have to impeach donald trump? >> yes, they do. the we're overthinking this. the united states of america is a superpower. the senate is the world's greatest deliberative body. we are capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. the senate can take up joe biden's agenda, confirm the nominees, they can invite the chief justice over, they can meet and walk through the process of impeachment. first joe biden should not let

the words donald trump pass his lips. once joe biden becomes president, let him get on with the job of being president. the democrats in the senate will have to finish up this bit of business. even if donald trump ends up being acquitted every republican should have to go on record and cast a vote and explain why donald trump should not be vanquished from holding office again. even if it fails, it's a part of maintaining our democratic culture. so i think we're just trying to think this too many steps ahead. he has been impeached, a trial is necessary. it can happen. joe biden can get on with the job of being president, the senate can get on with the job of confirming, advising, legislating and deciding whether or not donald trump should be

convicted and ever hold office again. >> tom, let me just tell you, you're the first person who has ever accused me of thinking too much. i assure you i am not. i'm just asking a question. reverend al, should biden encourage democrats to pass on the senate trial so that he can move forward with his agenda or does he have to move forward and have his first 50, 100 days occupied by donald trump's trial? >> they should do both at the same time. we should not do one or the other but both and. i think the thing that we focus on too much when we ask about the trial is on the perpetrator rather than the victims. five people died around this catastrophe. people saw law enforcement officers crushed in doors. we saw the capitol of the united states under siege. they must be accountable to that. those that vote to say the

perpetrator and the instigator should not be held accountable and should be able to hold office again, we need to make them go on the record. at the same time biden and others that are in his administration have to deal with we are in the middle of a pandemic. people are dying by the thousands every day and we need them to proceed to start dealing with the pandemic in a responsible way, dealing with the other issues. we don't have a choice but to rise to the occasion of showing the world we can do both at the same time, protect the justice for victims and protect the american people that are still as i'm speaking many of them are on ventilators, many of them are two steps away from death. some of it because of the incompetence of this same instigator of the things we ought to be trying in the u.s. senator. coming up, backlash against republican congresswoman liz cheney for backing trump's

impeachment. what some want to happen to president trump instead of impeachment. "morning joe" is coming right back. what do you look for when you trade? i want free access to research. yep, td ameritrade's got that. free access to every platform. mhm, yeah, that too. i don't want any trade minimums. yeah, i totally agree, they don't have any of those. i want to know what i'm paying upfront. yes, absolutely. do you just say yes to everything? hm. well i say no to kale. mm. yeah, they say if you blanch it it's better, but that seems like a lot of work. now offering zero commissions on online trades. we charge you less so you have more to invest. ♪♪

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the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. these facts require immediate action by president trump. accept his share of responsibility, quell the brewing unrest and ensure president-elect biden is able to successfully begin his term. the greatest statesmen in the history of our country understood that the most dangerous threat to freedom is lawlessness. a young lawyer named abraham lincoln famously said there is no grievance that is a fit object of redress by mob law. the yet for several hours last week mob law tried to interfere with constitutional law.

some say the riots were caused by antifa, there's no evidence of that. and conservatives should be the first to say so. >> kevin mccarthy with that rebuke of the president on the house floor yesterday, though he did vote not to impeach. mccarthy has argued for the president to be censured instead. members of the freedom caucus want wyoming congresswoman liz cheney to resign from her post as chair of the house republican conference. bloomberg reports that three members of the 44-member caucus began circulating a petition yesterday to force a special meeting to vote on a resolution for her resignation. only 42 members of the house gop are required to sign the petition in order to hold the meeting, but a majority would need to vote to adopt it.

that vote would take place by secret ballot. cheney responded to the effort with the following statement about her vote to impeach the president. i'm not going anywhere. this is a vote of conscience. it's one where there are different views in our conference but our nation is facing an unprecedented, since the civil war, constitutional crisis. that's what we need to be focused on. that's where our efforts and attention need to be. >> let's bring in nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early" casey hunt. this was a difficult vote for ten republicans to make, but when it comes to liz cheney, they need to handle that situation with care because right now they're pariahs. i'm not talking about the ten people that voted against sedition, i'm talking about people like kevin mccarthy and members of the freedom caucus,

if they think they're going to get any money from any companies, any corporations, any interests on k street after voting to disqualify millions and millions of black votes, their own version of new jim crow laws or try to, they're out of their minds. liz cheney may be the only bridge from this crazed gop house caucus and -- >> to a future. >> -- to a respectable world. >> it's a reckoning right now, joe. what do they want to be? kevin mccarthy in that byte we played coming in here, he tried to walk that line. he tried to say, okay, i don't want this remedy. i don't want impeachment but he also was clear that president trump bears responsibility. i think what he's reflecting is the deep divisions that exist, concerns about money absolutely,

but had this vote in the house been a secret ballot, all of my reporting indicates it would have been more like 50 or 60 republicans who would have voted to impeach trump. said think they're afraid for their lives and others are making a political calculation saying i don't want to take that political risk for myself. i'm not willing to go out on a limb like liz cheney was willing to, calling this a vote of conscience. kevin mccarthy trying to lead this group of people, he's trying to figure out how to walk that line. he made political calculations all the way along. he has his share of critics in terms of how he dealt with this president because he has been my kevin all the way along here. this is still, i think, a very live issue where we go from here, from this impeachment to the trial to this question about whether there could be 17 republicans who may be willing to vote to convict here.

mitch mcconnell is still an open question. but that video we showed from donald trump at the beginning of the show underscores to me that this is about what he decides to do. is donald trump going to spend the next six days actually listening to advisers who are telling him this is very real, you could be impeached for this, or will he continue to make statements that frankly are viewed as inflammatory, that seem to encourage the people who want to commit violence. i think if he does, there's a real chance he'll be convicted in the senate. this is very much a live issue on that front. i think that's why mitch mcconnell is being so careful here. why there is some under his control, there's a lot that's not. you saw what he said on wednesday. he has fermented violence among his supporters. they said they want to go out and attack washington on the inauguration and state capitols on the inauguration. if that happens and we see violence across this country it

could ultimately lead to conviction for the president. coming up, a mea culpa from our next guest. how he says he was coopted into helping the rich prevail at the expense of everyone else. we're back in a moment.

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♪♪ talking about the economic back stories to how we get to the current state of the economy as it is with massive income equality. today we're looking at what happened in the '70s and '80s when according to our next guest hippy and yuppy baby boomers

replaced the new deal with the raw deal. with us is former treasury official and "morning joe" economic economist -- i was talking yesterday to david axlerod on his podcast, he asked why he got into politics. i was inspired by truman and reagan, but i also read arthur schlesinger's book on bobby kennedy. i was always struck by bobby kennedy's coalition, he had working class white people and black people. there's that moving moment in a book written about bobby where his train with the coffin goes past, there's black people on one side of the track saluting, white people on the other side of the track saluting. as it goes past, those two sides walk away. democratic party has not really

regained those white working class voters in earnest really since bobby kennedy's death. it can't all be because of a handful of evil geniuses. what does the democratic party need to do other than writes books and ask questions as elite is elitists? >> no, we have to look back to that time when bobby kennedy was running for president in 1968, 1969, 1970, 1972. that's when the crack up happened between what had been the democratic coalition. forget southern segregationists, which was also a part of the coalition until before then, but white working class people and college educated people. you had vietnam as well, the counter culture and everything

else. there was a crack up and mutual contempt. i would say i feel and many -- the affluent part of my generation who were doing fine as the steel industry imploded, as manufacturing imploded, as outsourcing happened and manufacturing went to china and the rest, we shrugged, we thought this will work itself out. instead of helping to work it out as happened in the rest of the rich world in the '80s and '90s, we went along with the right and democrats and liberals really economically became no different than republicans. we became effectively the liberal republicans and there was no national economic left anywhere near power. so all we had as our differentiation was, oh, no, we're better on cultural issues,

social issues, racial issues, which is true and different. but not on economics. so for a lot of voters, as you know, i think they began looking at the two parties and saying one of these parties doesn't like the same people i don't like, otherwise they're -- both of them are indifferent to unions, to workers rights, to giving me a leg up. i might as well go with the people who don't like me as much. i wasn't in politics, but i -- i absolutely was complicit. i was, you know, happily for gary hart despite he came into politics saying the new deal, nonsense. that's old school. that's gone. that's obsolete. we don't need that anymore. along with every up-and-coming democrat of the time, al gore, bill clinton, my friend bob

kerry, paul tsongas, jerry brown, they were not of the economic left anymore. and as the union movement and organized labor was crushed, all kinds of protections and help for the middle and working class were kind of regulated out of existence, you know, we -- the democrats didn't really put up a fight. that's a problem. that's a problem that helped us get where we are in terms of insecurity and inequality and it didn't help the democrats politically. >> willie has a question next, but it's so fascinating that my family, again, saved in the great depression in part because of fda and the new deal. democrats, their entire lives they were, turned on the democratic party in '68 -- at

least my parents did, '68, '69, the craziness of chicago, vietnam. the whole thing. cities burning. we have gotten to a point now where people who desperately need health care insurance vote against the party who will get them health care insurance. people who live in rural communities where rural hospitals are being devastated by republican cuts continue to support those republicans. and continue to support republicans that vote for the largest tax cut ever for -- not for working class americans or middle class americans, but for the richest americans. so in rural america they're paying more in income tax than amazon is. >> yeah. the numbers are staggering. often people voting against their own economic interest hearing a message from the president that's not being delivered by the president or by the congress.

steve ratner we just got across the wires another terrible jobs number. 965,000 new people added to the unemployment roles in the last week. do you see an era of more government, big government, you know, you had the massive covid relief package pass through the congress. joe biden says that's just a down payment to give this economy life, to attack this covid catastrophe that's now as bad as it's ever been. what will the first month the and maybe the entire term of the biden presidency look like? >> look, we certainly need more government and that's something i think curt and i agree on, that government is not the enemy, government should be part of the solution. we have walked away from government to a considerable extent as being part of the solution. there is certainly a lot of sympathy, a lot of eagerness on the part of many americans to see government play a more

robust role. but you still do have this very strong opposition to the idea of being government. the republicans are still quite -- they may be in the minority but still powerful and able to block a lot of things. they're still opposed to big government except when it helps their own interest. so the idea that we'll go back to the '60s and past great society programs like medicare, medicaid, i think that's highly unlikely in this world. hopefully we can do something for the people being left behind at the moment. if i could go back for one second to the earlier part of the discussion and asia, curt, you mentioned the so-called new democrats that came along but it's also true we democrats did put up kind of a fight in the direction you like. we did nominate george mcgovern in 1972. we nominated walter mondale in 1984, we nominated michael dukakis in 1988, they went down to extraordinary defeats. i think it gets back to joe's

question of why people like joe, for example, became reagan supporters? why did they not embrace the idea of big government and government helping and accept the idea that government was your enemy? i think it's because the system simply wasn't working. we talked about vietnam, things like that. on the economic side we had massive unemployment. in 1975 we had 9% unemployment and 9% inflation. that's a recipe for people who basically search, i think, for other solutions, not just because evil geniuses are lurking in the background but because they're dissatisfied with the state of affairs they were living. >> certainly inflation in the '70s was crazy and brought under control significantly by the new fed chair that jimmy carter nominated and ronald reagan benefited from it coming under control. no question there were -- the

'70s were a mess. in terms of inflation, in terms of the steel industry, the automobile industry, in the '80s having big problems. i want to point out that ten years ago you and president obama of course saved the auto industry in a big wonderful government intervention way that worked with the uaw as a significant part of that salvation. so bravo. there's a role of big government inmaking the economy work for other than the rich. there was technological change, all the rest. but you see how the u.s. did it, proceeded to deal with all of those changes from 1980 on and how the rest of the world did it and they did well. there are all kinds of good capitalisms in the world and then there's ours, less good,

more insecure, bad capitalism, if you will. so -- and, by the way, george mcgovern 1972, richard nixon, that was a freakish time. we could argue for hours about whether mike dukakis and walter mondale were particularly economically left because by that point during the '70s, spontaneously and through the work of the evil geniuses and their think tanks in media and elsewhere really did help change the paradigm, really did convince, i think falsely, a lot of people that big government is bad, taxes are bad, a lot of things that allowed the economic right to hoodwink the good people of america to vote against their economic interests. that's sort of hedge fund we got

here. then we just, you know, i remember, again, thinking, oh, this jesse jackson stuff in 1988, if we're talking about presidential elections, he was a full-on elizabeth warren bernie sanders leftist back then. i think, oh, that's ridiculous. that can't happen. that will never happen. as long as democrats keep saying, well, you know, we can't really present a distinct vision rather than an incrementaling softer slighter version of our hellaciously rough and unfair version of green market capitalism, they're never going to get there. so whatever lies and bigotries the right pulls up to to get, you know, two-thirds of white working class men to vote for their candidate, they're going to be able to as long as there's not a -- a different vision of

how to go. the vision that we talked about earlier in the week, donald trump was selling to them, just didn't make good on it. didn't enact on it. >> katy kay is with us and has a question. >> i wonder how much you think that what's happened during covid might change the dynamic? you know, we've seen in yurp that we had the german government covering 75% of salaries, they committed to do this until next august at least. denmark has done the same kind of thing. whilst many european countries have been demonized for being socialist in america or that's the fashion over the last decade or so, i wonder if the crisis that covid put us into might actually change some of that equation. we found out in the 2016 election that many people who voted for donald trump were not economic conservatives, they wanted to protect social welfare

programs, they didn't mind running into deficits. now that deficits are back in fashion and social welfare programs are back in fashion because of covid, will we see this happen in the united states? >> i think we will see that. last year in congress, they said here's 2 trillion. bring it on. the government has a gigantic role to play in terms of intervening in the marketplace. i must again and again, as you know, tell americas denmark, norway, sweden, not socialist. among the freest free market economies on the planet, they just happen to have social welfare states. >> yeah. kurt, you talk, and it's fascinating, you talk about nostalgia a lot in your book. i must say you're a son of the -- you sort of came of age in the '70s. i came of age in the '70s. i was always resentful of the

fact even though all the music i listened to was before my time, i was always resentful that baby boomers completely controlled everything we saw in the movies, whether it was "the big chill" everything we saw. there was an incredible nostalgia machine that the baby boomers -- still, you listen to radio today, the eagles get more play today than they got in the 1970s. done henley will tell you that. i want to talk quickly at the end this economic nostalgia. which has been a mirage for the past 40 years in this sense everybody is looking back economically and saying why can't it be like it was in the 1950s? you know why it was that way in the 1950s? because we won world war ii and about 50% of the world's economic output was in rubble.

so, yeah, we had a pretty good 1950s. but as japan, germany and some other countries in the west came online, the world became more competitive. we opened up to china in the 1970s. there is became more competitive still. there is no way to replicate what we were in the 1950s, and that's what everybody's been trying to do for 50 years. >> we're not going to have coal mining back, we're not going to have a giant steel making industry. however, what we can do again, we can be fair again. that's what the new deal is about. >> right. >> having by norms and government rules and laws, have a basic idea that all economic boats rise together. if growth is only 2% then everybody grows only 2%, not the very top only getting more money out of it. that's what we can change. growth will slow. growth will increase. and god knows, we all want it to

increase. but so that it's shared across the board and that, you know, that's what we can go back to. which is a kind of first principle that, to me, the democrats really just have to hammer, hammer, hammer, a fair america economically. >> yeah, all right, hey, kurt andersen, thank you so much for being with us. we'll have you back on tomorrow because we can't get enough of you, or this book "evil geniuses." so steve rattner, stay with us. let's turn back to politics. we're hearing from a number of republicans who are suddenly calling for unity and healing of years of backing the most divisive rhetoric in modern american history, with us now the executive director of the institute of politics and public service in georgetown. the institute is out with new polling on political unity ahead of the new administration. mo, always great to talk to you.

>> hey, joe. >> and i'm all about unity. so much so that it drives mika and everybody around me crazy. i just -- i -- whether it's in the law or whether i'm in, you know, the media or politics, i always say, there's always a deal out there, you just have to work hard for it. but before we get to your poll, don't we have to have justice for some of these people? before we start talking about unity? >> yeah, i don't think there's any question about that. i think the american people are sort of in a couple of places at once. they do want more unity. they want to see congress and the president working together. they do want to tone down the divisive rhetoric. but at the same time no one wants an injust society. they do want to see basic fairness, they do want to see accountability. at times there is a conflict

there. but i think they are hopeful that they can get that accountability and justice while still moving towards a more unified society. >> hey, mo, it's really -- it's good to see you this morning. based on the new polling you have out there, what is the optimism? we see some general optimism. you told us that a majority of the americans believe that things are going to get better. about partisanship in this country, that if donald trump is not at the head of the government, if donald trump is not tweeting every day, if donald trump is not consuming our political and cultural conversation every day that the temperature might, in fact, be turned down. did you find that optimism? >> we did. it's a cautious optimism. but it's there. we were in the field with this poll last week. the insurrection happened right in the middle of it. and, you know, we've been testing this for about two years now. what we have found is first that it's about as bad as people have

ever seen it, that they believe that on a scale of zero to 100, 100 being like the ultimate amount of political division, the mean response right now is at 76. that's astonishingly high. but when you ask them what they think it will be a year from now that number drops down to about 65, still high but much better than it is now. the new president, president-elect biden is coming in, he's got a stated theme of americans united for his inauguration. we asked voters, do they believe that he'll be successful in unifying the country and a majority of the people, clear majority of people, say they'll have some level of success. they believe that the new president will be able to work with congress to get things done. which is not always been the case over the past few years in the polling. so people are optimistic.

now, there's still some warning signs, we're still seeing tremendous amount of polarization, that republicans are much less likely to believe that the president-elect can be a unifying force than democrats and independents are. there is, and we saw a huge spike in this in the nights that we were in the field after the insurrection. there is an increase in concern about politically motivated violence moving forward. but, having said that, they still are optimistic. they still believe that with some changes, and holding some people culpable, that we can get there. the number one driver, though, in the minds of voters, about who is responsible for the greatest amount of instability in our politics isn't president trump, it's actually social media, people, i think, are recognizing that there are bigger systemic forces, and challenges out there that we've

got to overcome to get back to that sense of unity that we were talking about. >> mo, so i've just done a podcast, interviewing lots of people about the issue of unity in america. and we spoke to some in northern ireland, ironic that northern ireland is the guide for the united states. not necessarily being friends with people from the other side because that seems very hard to do but what you want is just to be able to work with them and one of the perhaps things that we can feel hopeful about is the restoration of competence. if things are delivered, if results come about from -- if people have a sense of common purpose in sense of meeting results from something like florida has just passed a minimum age, maybe that's how we get to some kind of unity. it sounds pragmatic and

unidealistic but might be something that works. >> i don't disagree at all. to underscore your point, katty, agree or disagree with the following statements, number one 87% of americans agree with that. the very next question is, i'm tired of leaders who compromise on my values. i want them to stand up and fight the other side. 87% of people say they agree with that. people are torn about what they're looking for, but i keep coming back to the fact that people are optimistic that the new president and congress can work together and if they do that they will see that as a major, major step forward for our politics in this country. >> all right, mo, as always, we love having you on, thank you so much for coming. greatly appreciate it. and steve rattner, i want to get final thoughts if you about the numbers. it looked like, again, some more

bad numbers crossing today. how deep of a hole is joe biden and the new democratic congress going to have to dig out of in the first/second quarter of 2021? >> there's no question, joe, that the hole is getting deeper but the reason is hole is getting deeper is really not an economic issue, it's a public health issue, when you look at the data about how much people are going out, spending, willing to go to restaurants and bars even on their own, let alone in places where the government has instituted more lockdowns or more restrictions on activity, what you see is that people are pulling back, and therefore employers are pulling back. you did have the lapse in the stimulus and the recovery programs like the ppp which probably led to a lot of small businesses closing down, some of what you see in these numbers today. but really the bottom line here is that we first have to solve the public health crisis. as you know that is just simply getting worse and worse at the moment. it's a rice between the vaccine

and these new more contagious strains of the virus coming through this country as well as through europe and that's the race that joe biden is facing. and then the hole will be deep. we will have a bounceback. there's a lot of money out there in people's pockets they have not spent during this time. we've put a lot of stimulus into the economy but there's also a lot of broken glass, when a restaurant shuts down it doesn't reopen so quickly or so easily. it's going to be tough. >> going to be tough. really quickly, willie, final thoughts. >> well, skrb job in six days is going to have a big mountain to climb as steve just laid out but the here and now is getting safely to his inauguration, there's an investigation right now into whether members of congress were leading people on tours the day before the attack on the capitol. that's an issue raise by a group of democrats being investigated right now. some republicans refusing to go through metal detectors now will be fined. it's a scary and odd thing to

say but there appears to be some kind of a threat inside the capitol that they're managing right now. >> katty kay, final thoughts. >> more on congressional investigations. i had a text in a conversation about police officers saying that the new member for virginia's 5th district, official members of his staff were part of that insurgence, were part of that riot. a lot of questions, still, about the role of policemen and about the role of members and potentially veterans too. >> all right, thank you, katty, thank you, willie, and before we hand things over, a reminder about some really useful resources over at knowyourvalue.com, 64% of americans have seen their emergency savings wiped occupy during the pandemic. five strategies to help recover or increase your savings throughout 2021. and a reminder about know your value's exciting partnership with forbes, it's a 50 over 50 list and you c