the q&a back and forth? >> you know i wasn't experiencing this week any suspense. i'm done hoping for republicans to find their souls and conscience and act on them. what i was watching was the action in the echo chamber. i told haake i had an eye on fox news and chris wallace, and fox news and right wing media is now under billions of dollars of legal threats because of disinformation. so the threat i pulled through the whole day were conversations about republicans and democrats about the big lie. i think what will haunt this administration for a long time, trump's lawyers wouldn't even say if trump lost or won. trump's lawyers refused, wanted to find out what answered that question and attack them for it. we are still a country very much under attack that left to death and destruction on january 6. that's why we're all here. my friend and colleague joy reid is going to pick this up.

joy, i know that's something you've spent time talking a lot about as well. >> you're right, nicolle, that was one of the things that struck me as well. i wasn't sure if they were afraid of donald trump hearing them say he lost, even though they're calling him the former president, they keep saying -- i think they go back and forth between 45th president and former president, but they can't say it out loud. republicans are still unable to say out loud that donald trump lost the election. that level of terror, i guess. i don't know if i've ever seen it in politics, but i sure haven't. >> it's weird. >> that's why it's all yours. >> over to you, my friend. >> my turn to deal with the weird now. appreciate all you guys. thank you all for being here. good evening. yes, we do begin "the reidout" tonight with donald trump's impeachment defense. it wasn't a defense, okay? i don't know if you watched it, but in case you missed it, just let me sum it up for you.

it was really a right-wing tv show. and perhaps most importantly, the kind of right-wing tv republican senators probably have on in their offices right now and at home, and that republican base lines up day and night. take in this little sample for just a second. >> the article of impeachment now before the senate is an unjust and blatantly unconstitutional act of vengeance. >> we would like to discuss the hatred, the vitriol, the political opportunism that brought us here today. >> it is very clear that house democrats hate donald trump. >> politics changes everything. it is the inner post of hatred. >> so the tactic of the trump

defense, which was supposed to be a defensive claim, that ain't happening. they accused the house of manipulating videos and tweets when they made their case. but they offered no evidence of that manipulation. then they themselves used trump's tweets deceptively. they even tried to blame antifa -- really? for the january 6 insurrection. then they said the neo-nazis that marched in charlottesville were wonderful people. but this they ran over and over and over, daring the democrats to yell "fight" over and over and over. and, of course, they ran an extended right-wing media style attack video against black lives

matter. because, of course, you have to attack black lives matter or it's just not republicanism. and you will not be surprised that the ones they chose for their rants are blacks, asians jewish and women. >> this is not what-aboutism. >> it is constitutional cancel culture. >> you attempt to censure members of this chamber. >> let's be clear, this trial is about far more than president trump. it is about cancelling 75 million trump voters and criminalizing political viewpoints. it asks for constitutional cancel culture to take over in the united states senate.

>> i will repeat, this is not a defense. it is a four-hour rant over constitutional cancel culture. it was a blizzard of lies, conspiracy theories, what-aboutism and frank the b.s. was. it was like a trump tweet storm, which he cannot do. that's why they banned him. neil katyal, midwin charles, and dean obadallah on sirius xm, and eli, who is a lawyer. eli, i'll start with you. did you hear a defense today? >> yeah, i heard, i'm just a caveman. i'm frozen by your scientists. i think it's made up and you're trying to cancel the

republicans. it's one of the more pathetic things i've ever seen in my life. they actually admitted -- his lawyers admitted the violence was foreseeable, which is a key element in the crime that trump stands accused of. they repeatedly suggested that trump should just be indicted by the criminal justice system which is not something you'll often hear from a defense attorney. then at the key point when they were asked by murkowski and collins, two republicans, what did the president know and when did the president know it, they acted like the mere question was an anathema, like they never called up their client and says, when did you know it was happening? we had it available, and while i was on hold, tommy tuberville confirmed -- confirmed -- that he told trump directly that pence was being secured before trump sent the 2/24 tweet, again

attacking mike pence. that's the whole case, and they didn't do anything to defend the actual charges. >> midwin, i thought stacey plaskett beautifully laid out -- i thought i was watching the show with the guy with the bow tie. look at elizabeth warren, what she says. it was literally just a rant that fox news goes off on. that's what i heard today. >> this is what we call when lawyers have a horrible case. they just throw everything against the wall and see what sticks, right? it was misleading, it was disorganized, and it was not helpful to their client, for the exact same reasons eli laid out. i actually was confused watching it. i couldn't quite figure out if they were defending trump or whether or not they were trying

to help prosecute trump. what they did was they played video that was actually hurtful to trump. to play video and text messages and to show he knew this was going to happen, yet he did not temper his words. he did not try to secure the building. nor did he ask for pants in advance, and the fact, i think, is just disqualifying. his attorneys at that point should have been, the defense rests. it was over at that point, because all they needed to do was call their client and find out from their client, listen, when did you fund out the -- and the prosecutors, the house managers, are not required to set up that evidence, because

this is not a case of whether he secured the building, it was an abuse of power and a violation of his oath. that's what this is about. this whole thing is a complete red herring. >> it's moot because that part was over. bernie sanders asked what did donald trump do when the insurrection broke out? what did he do when he found out mike pence was in trouble? then he asked the same question of trump's lawyers. i was struck by the fact that they didn't seem to know what trump was doing. they didn't seem to have any information about what trump was doing, and yet they actually contradicted tommy tuberville who is lore the record to say he wanted to evacuate ins the

congress. >> the house didn't give us an answer to that question. we're able to piece together a timeline, and it goes all the way back to december 21st. there is a lot of interaction between the authorities and getting folks to have security beforehand. on the day we have a tweet at 2:38, so it was certainly sometime before then with the rush to have this impeachment, there's been absolutely no investigation into that. >> here's the thing, neal. they're saying that the house managers should have investigated where trump was,

but couldn't they just ask trump? he's their client. >> you're 100% right, and you started by saying what we heard wasn't a defense. it wasn't. i think it was just embarrassing. if your viewers don't have a concept of what that long clip was, it started with senator collins and murkowski asking a very precise question. on january 6, when did trump learn about the breach on the capitol, what did he do about it and when? then you heard that rambling answer about december 29 and so on. i agree with what eli and others have said. if i'm trump's lawyer and i'm interviewing him to be his lawyer, the first thing i'm going to ask him is those murkowski questions. the fact they couldn't answer it is very striking. then you were saying the stuff they refused to answer. they said, when was mike pence

under attack? they said, trump never knew. it just seems patently wrong, the idea that the secret service would not have told the president of the united states that the vice president was under attack? that is preposterous, and here's the thing. i think trump lawyer, it looks like he lied in this hearing, and we know folks want to vote tomorrow, but you can't entail. he banks on the idea, nobody is dpg to come forward, they're too scared. the secret service could have come forward in 4 years. you shouldn't blame the secret service for what he did. >> he's just following his friend around, lindsey graham, who blamed the cops. >> i don't understand how that does not trigger some sort of

ethics implications here. they claimed the video that democrat show as a doctor. this is surveillance video they got presumably from the capitol police. >> that was stunning. it also seemed like there weren't going to be questions. they're like, we didn't know there was questions on this. that's skpchlt the one tp t. they probably know they're not getting prayed by trump, anyway. there was no defense. the only defense as a lawyer looking at it is the defense being convicted in front of a

rigged jury. i would have answered questions very succingtly. they did not try to rebuild donald trump's reputation from what america has seen over the last three days. it is stunning. you mentioned them showing a lot of of video that was doctored. this is an audition for fox news, newsmax, whatever it was. this was a terrorist attack. there are not two sides to the oklahoma city bombing, there are not two sides to this attack. about 200 people were arrested,

but what if we have trouble going forward? that's stunning to me. >> it's the call. >> eli, thechltd. >> people luke lynn saw graham and ted cruz. everything else, all of the other incitement, in the first day the house managers brought up the video of them trying to run the biden/harris bus off the road, and they talked about how trump encouraged that. he's saying, did you see what they did in texas?

we love that. for the same actions marco rubio took. to convict trump for doing what he did, they have to be able to look inside themselves and admit their own errors, their own mistake and their own culpability in this tragedy, and republicans. >> urng so. . well, there are two possibilities. the house and senate could use the 14th amendment to try to bar trump from running again. that would require a majority vote and possibly a court proceeding. trump is looking at a series of

georgia questions and in new york. trump's lawyers are begging for this. >> what about the republican party? what is this going to stand for if they can't look in yirt. that is the sdlukz of thifrd party. >> you teerm sdplz? . trump's love language is vai lentz -- violence. up next on "the reidout," for the second time trump

supporters have seen the danger and have looked away. plus, the new criminal investigation into trump's efforts to steal georgia's electoral votes. >> look, all i want to do is have you find 1,780 votes. >> exactly one more vote than he needed. imagine when he got a threat, people proven to be in daung. like the way alln to be in. sh-yeah, that's really sad.

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. there is a reason that the one-term president's defense sounded like a show on rupert murdoch's fox news or oann.

the audience for that was donald trump himself and the senators themselves who were looking for any fig leaf to justify a quitting him so the base didn't get mad again. and those senators who were supposed to act as impartial jurors voted to overturn the outcome of the election. they see senators weren't interested in the facts or the evidence, they just needed an offramp. lindsey graham and ted cruz were seen popping into the defense room during a break. why work hard when the outcome is probably baked in, anyway? as if on queue, senators applauded the banarama defense.

>> the president's lawyers blew the house manager case out of the water. the legally eviscerated them. >> just blew it out of the water. they didn't make any sense, but who needs to make sense? here's the extreme right republican party. remember bill cassidy of louisiana? he voted that the impeachment was, in fact, constitutional. well, it now seems he is in the bag for trump after the gop threatened to censure him. they snapped these pictures of his prepared remarks, not yet delivered, because the trial is still ongoing, about why he will vote to acquit. he has a number of different speeches prepared for different votes, depending on what happened. this is what happens when 40% of the modern republican party

leaders won't do it themselves. michelle goldberg for the "new york times," and charlie bulwark. it's complete, right? it's complete now. they have morphed with far right wing tv, far right wing breitbart media, the murdoch empire, whatever, it's all merged into one and these senators cannot wriggle out of it. i can't think of three or four that would have the courage or the bank account to resist it or they're retiring. >> they have the muscle memory of acquiescence so they're not going to go along with it. there is always a reason to not do the right thing if you're looking for it, as you point

out. there is always a reason to not look at the facts in front of you. i'm really glad you mentioned that poll because this is what worries me the most. we have a problem, of course, with political leadership and lack of courage, lack of principle, cynicism of cruz and graham and mike lee. but you also have a base problem. when you see 39% of republicans saying that they would support the use of violence if politicians don't act the way they want, you realize how dangerous this is, but also how important the point that the house managers made yesterday was, that if there are no consequences for donald trump, this will happen again. either donald trump will try it again, or the next authoritarian would-be fascist figure will try it. a failed coup, unless there are consequences, is just a rehearsal.

that's very, very true. this is a moment for republicans to draw that white line in the sand. look, the guy is gone, they don't need him for tax cuts or regulation or any other thing, but this is where you could draw a line and say, look, an attempted coup, an attempt to overturn the election, a mob to try to shut down congress, this is unamerican. it could have been this moment, and yet they're not going to do that. and there is that simmering base out there that, in fact, is open to the idea of force, is open to the idea of violence, and that ought to worry us because what precedent will be set by the republicans going along with this and saying, yeah, we don't have an issue with what donald trump just did in front of the whole country and in the eyes of the world. >> yeah. we have the michigan republican majority leader saying, a, he thought the whole thing was a fake, that there was no insurrection, didn't happen, and he wants to have a punching

match. he wants to go and challenge the michigan governor to a fist fight, the woman who was a right wing militia who said they were going to kidnap. there is this report out of cnn that kevin mccarthy tried to put a spy inside and tried to ratchet himself up and had a call with the former president to say, turn this thing off, stop the insurrection, and trump's response to him was to say, it looks like those people care more about my election than you do. so he backed out and look how far he has backed down. >> i don't think it even is about kevin mccarthy having a spine as much as it is about republican members of congress like democratic members of congress being under direct personal threat from the president's mob. that's why it's so striking that even after that experience, even after that phone call which, you know, the sourcing for that cnn story, it named republican members of congress who have gone on the record about that conversation, where the president was, yeah, as you said, it looks like these people

care about the election more than you do. kevin mccarthy still voted against impeaching the president of the united states. and, you know, the republican party, i wrote this today in my column, this could be, if they wanted it, a moment of grace, because they had an opportunity to reap all the rewards of four years of complicity with donald trump, right? get the tax cuts, get the judges, get deregulation, get everything that they wanted, and then they could have washed their hands of him and sort of gotten on the right side of history for very little effort. they're not even going to do that. there was something heartbreaking today about seeing this earn ittest effort -- defend the constitution. you look at someone like jamie raskin who suffered this guttural loss but is still trying to speak to members of

congress, is trying to find some sense of solidarity. then you see just this contemptuous program put on by the president's lawyer. and to know that none of it in the end is going to matter for most of these members of congress, right? the deck is already stacked. >> charlie, we were talking about this at our team meeting. it's easy to look at the republican party and say we lost it. mike shirley said he wanted to have a fist fight with the governor of michigan. you think the national parties are cuckoo? go to the state party where you have people calling it a false flag. the state party, it's not just

trump. i wonder if, at this point, the republican party is just not rescuable by anyone who wants to be a normal sort of old school style tax cut conservative. they have lost control of this party, have they not? >> yeah, they have. we're seeing this process again where they're trying to grow this baby crocodile in the bathtub and it will never get out and eat them. what's happening right now? if there is any bright spot here, it's the fact there are two juries we saw this week. we have the jury of the senate who is not going to do the right thing. the american people are watching this as well, and this does not have to be the end. i do not see how the republican party goes forward embracing this kind of crazy, embracing this kind of violence and be successful. it's not just michigan, it's the party in georgia, it's the party in hawaii, it's the party in texas, it's the party in virginia. in one state after another, they

have been turning states that had been blue states, they have been turning them -- i always get this back and forth -- states that had been red states, they're turning them blue. they are losing these states. you watch what's happened -- what happened in georgia, what happened in arizona, what happened in virginia, as the republican party gets more crazed, as they become more unhinged, they lose more elections. i'll have to say that watching this this week, and michelle's point about the contrast between the presentations, it could not have been more dramatic. the house managers made this coherent, eloquent case, detailed case, and what did the trump lawyers do? they came up with this clown show. they didn't even cover these republican senators with a cover so they don't humiliate themselves. the rest know what happened here, and they didn't get any cover from this event. >> i'll give you the last word on this, michelle, because what

happens when they just keep losing elections but now they have the giant permission slip to say, it doesn't matter if we lose elections. we'll just get the mob in here and threaten to hang people, and then we'll win after we've lost. >> i don't know that democracy even gets that far. i think charlie is probably right in that there will be republican parties paying the price with public esteem. the gerrymandering all of the counter-majority things that allows republicans to rule without winning the majority of the votes, those things are only going to get worse. they have a choice to make about whether they're willing to blow up the filibuster and enact reforms that are necessary for an anti-democratic party -- that are necessary to keep an anti-democratic party from gaining more and more power.

>> you're absolutely right. the democrats have to sober up and realize this is not the republican party of the '60s and '70s. charlie sykes, michelle goldberg, thank you very much. >> thank you. as the impeachment trial of the former president wraps up, we cannot let go of the fact that the extremists that produced violence are still out there. stay with us. e still out there. stay with us what about here? here? here? daddy, is that where we're from? well, actually... we're from a lot of places. you see we're from here and there and here... turn questions you've always had into stories you can't wait to share; with ancestry. this is the planning effect. if you ask suzie about the future,

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we were invited here! we were invite by the president of the united states! >> i thought i was following my president, i thought i was following what we were called to do. >> you just heard directly from the rioters that they were following the instructions of donald trump. militia groups were also heeding the call to assemble. oath keepers, a far right band of military police and first responders who pledged to take up arms against anyone they think violated the constitution, from their reading of it. a member of that pretty scary group who was arrested for participating in the insurrection indicated that she was, quote, awaiting directions

from trump. jessica watkins, a military veteran, sent a text shortly after the election, quote, unless the potus himself activates us, it's not legit. the potus has the right to activate units, too. if trump asks me to come, i will. the oath keepers wanted to ferry a boat into washington, d.c. they conspired other militia groups in their plan. joining me now, intelligence analyst, malcolm nance. malcolm, thanks for being here. give me a sense of the gravity here. its politics are becoming more sort of end stage where they're saying if we don't win elections, we feel we can do anything. we can disenfranchise voters, and we can also resort to violence if that's what it takes, and you have these groups

willing to be the shock groups. how much danger do you think our republic is in given that? >> a pretty fair amount of danger, and i can only warn you so much, joy. i've been spouting off for the last three months that we are headed into a new phase of american domestic violent extremism where the insurrection was this flash in the pan which showed you the parameters of the organizations that were there. i really feel strongly we are helded into insurgency. when i say insurgency, that is a continuous long-term political terrorist and paramilitary effort to discredit the current government and to push forward an alternative government. the only thing they're really waiting for is to see what donald trump says here after he is acquitted and in the weeks that follow, whether he's given a new platform. but this is dangerous now. now we see the oath keepers, the

three percenters, the proud boys, the bands of militia men coming together through social media, self-radicalizing just like isis and then taking action. >> you know, so the oath keepers were formed during the 2016 elections, so they're a trump era phenomenon. but with the other groups, the three percenters, these other groups -- i've heard of the oath keepers before. how much of their zealousness is about trump himself needing to be in power, in their view, and that being the only constitutional outcome -- how much is just white power, to put it bluntly? it doesn't have to be trump, it could be anybody. >> that's a really good question. remember the alt right? all the people that showed up in charlottesville, the neo-nazis, the white supremacists, well, that's what you're looking at again. look back to the militias of the

1980s, the timothy mcveys all underground. move that forward to a tea party where you see a widening of that into the mainstream. move that forward into not to where we are today, but last year when the black lives matter protest happens, what you saw was the right transform into the foot soldiers of the trump campaign. they all have different names, they're self-radicalizing, as i said, but come towards november, they became a paramilitary of the trump campaign. when trump said this thing was stolen, they, along with the republican base, moved and took action to essentially destroy democracy. >> and so as we get closer to that date, which i wrote in my first book that part of what radicalized a lot of white americans who didn't consider themselves some sort of

paramilitaries is this notion that we're going to be radicalized. as we get closer to this date, now that radicalism has been baked into the republican party. what do we do about that, because it's now connected with a major political party. >> it is. forget about 2022. you need to look at the i understand -- end of this year. some major recurrence will happen between the republican party and the conservative thought. they are now consumed with having donald trump as their tribal leader. and that's what you're looking at here. they want to dominate as the white tribe. i often joke that they no longer believe in e.pluribus unum, but one tribe shall dominate all.

that's where we're going with this. by the end of the year, qanon and trumpism will completely consume this party. >> scary world, because there are only two major political parties, and if one of them is this, we're in trouble. malcolm nance, thank you for talk to go me, my friend. trump is facing real legal trouble on multiple fronts, including an acquittal inquiry over his attempt to overturn the election results in georgia. we've got that right after this quick break. georgia. we've got that right after this quick break. with moderate to severe crohn's disease, i was there, just not always where i needed to be. is she alright? i hope so. so i talked to my doctor about humira. i learned humira is for people who still have symptoms of crohn's disease after trying other medications. the majority of people on humira saw significant symptom relief in as little as 4 weeks. and many achieved remission that can last. humira can lower your ability to fight infections.

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"law & order." there is the criminal investigation of the investigation, there is a defamation lawsuit from carroll who accused trump of rape. there is an "apprentice" customer's lawsuit, and now we can add one more to this list. prosecutors in georgia have opened a criminal investigation into trump's effort to overturn the election result in that state. on wednesday state officials received letters requesting they and their employees preserve any ask all evidence. the state officials made clear they are looking into election fraud. we know donald trump put pressure on secretary of state brad raffensperger, find 1,780

votes. we know that because it's on tape. . >> there is nothing wrong in saying you recalculated. so look. all i want to do is this. i just to want find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. >> just to be clear, there is a reason he was asking the secretary of state to magically deliver him a very specific number of votes long after the election had been certified. trump knew how many votes he would need to beat biden in georgia. that's what he asked for, the ability to win by a single vote. it's pretty clear he just wanted a state election officer to manipulate in his favor. that attorney is now speaking out about the scope of the investigation, and that is coming up next. scope of the investigation, and that is coming up next and rescued his nose.

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what i known about investigations is they're kind of like peeling back an onion, and as you go through each layer, you learn different things. to be a responsible prosecutor, you must look at all those things in the investigation, to be fair to everyone involved. this is a very important matter, as you've already highlighted, and so, yes, the investigation seems that it will go past just this one phone call we've discussed. >> that was fulton county district attorney fannie willis on "the rachel maddow show." with me is the election officer from georgia. this is the president threatening brad raffensperger if he didn't compliment take a

listen. . >> you know what they did ask you're not reporting it. that's a criminal, that's a criminal offense. and you can't let that happen. that's a big risk to you and ryan, your lawyer. that's a big risk. >> in your mind, what would be the crimes here and what do you think could be proven by those tapes? >> that's really not a president, that's like a mafia who is putting on the pressure, and trying to threaten them with some criminal prosecution. i think probably the state statute which deals with trying to intimidate somebody in the performance of their official duties fits this to a t. i think it also san attempt to commit election fraud. you can look at the tenor by looking at the result of the votes. he doesn't care if there were people waiting in line eight hours, there was a problem on voting day. he says get enough just to help

me, and i think that gets to any intent question. trump is just like every other criminal offender. what gets them in trouble most of the time is just their inability to keep their mouth shut, and she's got it going into this investigation. >> if they threaten, i'm going to put the tape out, the tape came out, anyway. is this like a jail crime or a big fine kind of crime? >> one part is a misdemeanor and there's also a felony side to it. if he is soliciting the secretary of state to do a crime that would be a felony in regards to the election fraud, that would carry up to one to three years and could be imprisoned. in georgia we have, obviously it's not a sinister guidelines

provision, but the judge would look at is it a violent crime, does this person have a record of doing this kind of thing, is there a rehabilitation kind of angle? i think we need to set expectations at a reasonable level, because let's think what would happen if a judge put a former president in a state prison. i guess you would have to dpelt -- the get the cells around him to protect him. there are logistical things to figure out, and the likelihood would be, if he were to have a federal crime on his record, he would have to be protected. not only does he talk for an hour, but he would have to get consent to be recorded. the governor doesn't have the

power to pardon. that's up to a pardon parole board, so there are all these things in play, and clearly it was a strong arm tactic. he probably stepped in it up to his ankles, and i hope that as the district attorney moves forward, she doesn't let the investigation turn into a grabbing the tiger by the tail, she just needs to be slow and methodical, don't feel rushed for political reasons, just do the job. just run the investigation like she would. i think when she starts pulling the strings that this thing will unravel. >> from what we saw today, he's probably going to need better lawyers because he doesn't really have the a-team at this point. the last question, very quickly, could lindsey graham face the same problem, because he was calling and trying to pressure the state government there to flip the election to trump, very quickly. >> i asked the state election to look into that. i would want to know is it coordinated, was there advice

given, who scheduled these calls, was there an e-mail track back and forth. it was a threatening and intimidating call to have the judiciary call in and make those kinds of requests. >> yeah, indeed. it's like a whole crime family. michael j. moore, thank you very much. i appreciate you being here. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight on "all in." >> this is about the most miserable experience i've had down here in d.c. >> day four of the trump impeachment trial is in the books. >> my counsel said before this has been my worst experience in washington, and for that i'm sorry, but you should have been here on january 6. >> what did the president know and when did he know it? >> i have a problem with the facts in the question because i have no idea. >> tonight how senators, both democratic and republican,