thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. >>. >> i get impeached and my numbers go up. say somebody gets impaoefpltd. typically numbers would go down. they would go down like -- >> the once bustling trump plaza casino hotel demolished yesterday. trump himself was back on the air and not getting any pushback to his lies about the election. no pushback at all. who would do that. >> he even lied, willie, about numbers in impeachment. . >> yeah. we were there. republicans, we impeached bill clinton >> this is very embarrassing. >> and his numbers went up. it happened with donald trump. you always see the president's numbers going up.

he was lying about that. >> that's what he does. the question is at what point do organizations actually do what they are supposed to do, speak truth to power, tell the truth. . >> they never have. >> so they will be sued again and again and again. >> why should they start telling the truth now when donald trump is there lying again. willie, the worst lies of course were the lies he spread again yesterday that spread to cops being brutalized being beaten by american flags. he was lying again the host on the shows that he comes into lied. let him continue the lie that led to the insurrection against the united states of america by

trump terrorists who brutalized police officers in and out of the capitol. . >> it's unbelievable. it was bad enough to let the president air the lies give him a platform to spread the lies up to january 6th. but after january 6th, you're allowing him to call in uninterrupted and to make this case again, to state these lies. it's not that hard of a pushback. let's be honest. the evidence is this high. you can cite republican secretaries of state, judges, intelligence agencies who say this was a free, fair election. some of the organizations we understand. fox news, come on, guys, you can't give the man a platform to continue to fire up and drive and give life to the lie that drove people into the capitol on january 6th. >> yeah.

this is like spreading up with pizza gate conspiracy where a guy shows up with a gun. it's worse because this undermines american democracy, led to the in sur recollection against the united states of america. it does what vladimir putin has been trying to do for years, have americans have less confidence in their preliminary system. that's exactly what donald trump has achieved. he achieved what vladimir putin could never achieve. okay. that's part of history. but you have network allowing him to come on and spread insurrectionist talk. when are you going to learn that leads to violence. that mike pence right now is afraid every day that those crowds that were chanting hang mike pence are going to find him

and something bad is going to happen to him. again, they allow him to come on the network. you saw what they did with mr. pillow. >> you can't call it news. >> mr. pillow started with the same lie. and they knocked mr. pillow's stuffing out of him. they cut mr. pillow off. donald trump is nothing but mr. pillow by another name. he is saying the same exact things that mr. pillow was saying. and he is now in effect mr. pillow. so if you're going to stop mr. pillow from spreading lies on your air, then why, why don't networks stop this man from spreading lies. >> if you can't do it, don't have him on. >> it's curious. it's really dangerous to this republic moving on. you know that because you saw what happened on january 6th. you saw it happened on september

11th. you were concerned about that for a decade. it seems you have forgotten about january the 6th. would they allow osama bin laden come on and lie about september 11th? why let donald trump come on and lie about january 6th, continue the insurrectionist lies. >> we'll talk about that this morning. we have co founder of punch bowl news and msnbc political contribuor jake sherman. senior political correspondent for the washington examiner, david drucker is here this morning. and professor at lyndon b. johnson public affairs at the university of texas and msnbc contributor, victoria defrances co soto. it is a agreement morning to have victoria on because she is living through what is happening in texas. our lead story where millions are still without power after winter storms and frigid temperatures swept through the

state. the biden administration said fema is supplying generators to texas and preparing to send diesel fuel to ensure the availability of backup power. the agency is also providing blankets, bottled water and meals for the state to distribute. that news comes as grocery store reports shortages and the texas tribune reports that texas running low on food are finding empty grocery store shelves. food pantries are running out of supplies. and the freeze has wiped out substantial portions of the state's citrus and vegetable crops. willie? . >> and there's another big problem in texas. because of the temperatures, cities across the state are under boil water notices. many texans have been dripping faucets to prevent pipes from freezing. but water levels are dangerously low and may be unsafe to drink.

boil tap water for drinking, cooking and making ice and to conserve water wherever possible. nearly 600 public water systems across the state reported disruptions in service affecting about 12 million residents. for more, let's bring in meteorologist bill occasions. what does it look like today? . >> willie, in the last couple hours, texas managed to energize a big pofrgtz grid. hundreds of thousands of people are getting their power back on. yesterday we had 3 million without power. right now we're at 650,000. a significant number of people that didn't have power have gone it back. we added 300,000 people that lost power in louisiana and mississippi from that ice storm they dealt with yesterday. for that roughly 1 million people don't have power right now, it is still a cold morning. we're at 4 degrees in oklahoma city, 33 in houston. it's going to stay very cold all

day today. the roads will be trefp kwrous in many case. we had a foot of snow in little rock, arkansas yesterday. that doesn't happen. very rare snow event for them. as we go throughout the weekend, that's when the warming trend moves in. temperatures will move to dallas, houston, 50s and 60s in upcoming weekend. 24 to 36 hours, frigid conditions. the big headline is finally the power is coming back on to millions of people in texas. . >> that's hopeful. and victoria, there's partially a reason why texas is in this situation right now. can you explain the politics of this and also why some politicians are saying this is our thing we have to tough this out. >> mika, texas is on its own power grid. we have two major power grids for the western states and the eastern states. there is a history for that that i won't go into now.

after the 2011 storm similar to this one, not quite as bad but similar a number of recommendations and guidelines were made that the power companies on the texas grid needed to winterize. winterization means you need to pay the price to winterize. however, the state and the state's political leaders made guidelines. they didn't make it obligatory. when the power companies who ultimately are about making a profit, it's a company, right, when asked to spend the money or not spend the money to winterize, they opted to not winterize. this is why we are in that mess. on top of that, mika, is the fact that, okay, we got into this mess. the power companies didn't follow the recommendations to

winterize. because we're at it alone with our own power grid, we weren't easily able to look to other grids to back up the support. it is one policy mess after another that has put us in the situation that we are in now where people are losing their lives. >> it's a total mess. you talked about the recommendations made in 2011 they ignored. it reminds me after hurricane andrew in florida in 1992. even the conservatives in the democratic legislativers, even the conservatives came together and put tough, new, stringent building codes on homes that were built across the state of florida because they knew to not do that would cost people lives. i'm shocked -- well, not shocked. really it's disgusting that

texas legislators didn't do the same thing following 2011, put those requirements down. second, i want to get your impression of what rick perry said, that texans would rather freeze through three or four days without power than to get help from the national government. do you think that's how most texans feel? >> one word comes to mind, joe, and that is heartless. i was without power for 36 hours. i was one of the lucky ones. i have a fireplace. i'm healthy. for those folks in our community, in our state that don't have the ability to go to warming places that have vulnerabilities, health conditions. because let's also compound this with the fact that the vaccine rollout has been botched here in texas. so it's easy to say, hang tough, stick it out, when you're in a

place of privilege either because you're healthy, you haven't lost power or you have all of these resources who allow you to do that. but for those of us who are so vulnerable in this community, that is completely heartless. . >> yeah. we'll take a look at what he said more specific live in a moment. but during a news conference yesterday, texas governor greg abbott was asked about a claim that he made this week that renewable energy sources are responsible for the power outages. here's what he said on fox news tuesday night compared to his comments yesterday. . >> it shows how the green new deal would be a deadly deal for the united states of america. texas is blessed with multiple sources of energy such as natural gas and oil and nuclear as well as solar and wind. but you saw from what trays said, that is our wind and solar got shut down. they were collectiveively 10% on

of our power grid. it just shows fossil fuel is necessary for the state of texas, as well as other states to make sure we'll be able to heat our homes in the wintertime and cool our homes in the summertime purchase. >> the fact is every source of power the state of texas has access to has been compromised because of the cold temperature or because of equipment fill kwrers. i made clear the fact that if we relied solely on green energy, that would be challenge. in texas, we have access to all sources of energy. >> david drucker, it was a bizarre claim bringing up the green new deal in the first place. i'm surprised the governor would do that when he knows the overwhelming majority comes from

traditional energy sources, coal and other fossil fuels, first of all. secondly, as bill occasions brought up yesterday the reason they didn't work is because they brought the wrong ones. >> as the governor stated his news conference verses the opinion talk show, texas wasn't ready. they have had their second generational storm in the decade. they just weren't prepared. possibly harboring ambitions beyond that, the question will be whether the republican-controlled legislature and the governor get-together to make sure this never happens again. there is plenty texas can do to upgrade its equipment to be able to handle weather events that don't involve it submitting to the national grid or becoming a fully regulated energy state

like some of its democratic controlled neighbors. there is a lot of soul searching to do and a lot of work to do. it will be interesting to see, one, if they get to work immediately doing that or dismissing this as, you know, some sort of freak accident that they don't have to pay attention to. and it will be interesting to see whether voters in texas demand more. texas is more competitive politically than it was back in 2011. and i don't know that a lot of the new arrivals to texas, houston, austin, which is growing like crazy, are going to be satisfied with a, hey, we just tough it out here. don't worry. i have family and friends in texas. even for people that were privileged enough to have nice homes and things like that, they didn't have power. they didn't have access to water. friends ended up in the car because they had heat and they could put their kids in front of

a movie on a screen. so this is a very serious problem and could develop into a political problem. i'll just say this. if governor abbott can attack this, deal with it and start to fix the problem, this could be something that could be part of his political legacy that would help the state and help him. but i think the question is how much appetite there is going to be to be a little bit more regulatory minded when it comes to the energy industry in the wake of this. >> rick perry was the secretary of energy inside the federal government making that about the feds getting off their backs in texas statement. victoria, you are in austin, under a boil water notice. the entire city of austin is. what does it look like on the ground? you talked about your own situation having a fireplace. for people across austin, across the state of texas, what does every day, every hour look like without power and without this

boil water notice? >> so on top of that, willie, we also need to factor in the dangerous icy roads. after living in chicago, i was used to snowplows, salting happening right after a snowstorm. here in austin, we don't have the infrastructure to deal with the road conditions when we have these two winter storms back to back. being under a boredom water notice. for those folks who don't have electricity, how are they going to boil their water. >> right. >> and the third option is let me get to a safe place, to a warming center. many have been open. but we are seeing treacherous conditions on the road. at the same time, the state of texas is telling us to go to warming centers and stay off the road.

>> i don't think that could have

happened to a democrat. you would have had riots going all over the place if that happened to a democrat. >> donald trump supporters that rioted and beat police officers. so that's not true any more. >> and you know it and really bad and dishonest things happen. >> cops have been beaten up and he's lied about it. he's right there. . >> it's a disgrace. >> nobody agrees with you there. . >> talk about a second and third world country. he lied repeatedly to supporters who have been brainwashed. they actually believed his lies. and ignored the fact that 62, 63, 64 hearings were heard before federal judges and federal courts. they all said there was no merit to donald trump's lies. the big lie did not hold up in court. and also, on top of that, not only did the big lie not hold up

in court, his own judges -- >> right. >> donald trump's own appointed judges said there was no merit to anything they were saying. >> and so-called news hosts could have said that to him when he said that on television yesterday as their guest. trump also told one america news that he was robbed of the election. . >> i don't understand, mika. they stopped mr. pillow. . >> right. >> if they stop mr. pillow, why don't they stop this guy. >> maybe we can ask jake. >> he can't speak for mr. pillow. >> jake, do you have a my pillow? . >> i don't. i never tested it. although i do need a new pillow. but i don't think i'm going to go to that one.

>> it's filled with lies. news operations would allow anybody to come on. and continue to spread a big lie that led to an insurrection against the united states of america, led to cops being beaten up. within inches of their lives with american flags, a cop being brutalized by trump terrorists so much so that he thought he was going to die and leave his four daughters and family behind. i'm surprised -- are you surprised that anybody would allow this guy to come on and spread the lies that mr. pillow was cut off from spreading? . >> yeah. i would say i'm not surprised. here's what i would say. here's the lucky thing for our political system. it's become almost like a cult we have seen. adam kinzinger not letters from his family. if you read them, they are just buying into donald trump's myths and lies.

it's kind of scary. but i would say this. most of the political system has moved on, right? no one cares what he said right now what he says for the most part. i'm in the capitol every day. i can tell you there is an entire government that is trying to get work done and by and large not paying attention to him. >> but, jake, there's an entire government trying to ignore him. trump attacked every day of his presidency to have so-called news organizations not saying a word about the big lie, not saying a word about judge after judge after judge that threw these claims out. . >> he ya. and the only way to handle it,

frankly, is what joe just did, to say each claim he's making is complete nonsense and complete b.s. but i am not surprised because many of the networks we saw were the same were networks that put him on for his whole presidency and allowed and trump used them as mouthpieces. and i would say, i would hope that some of these lawsuits that are not related to what he said, i was hoping that the media would take that as a signal these kind of lies and untruths are not helpful and they are actually actionable in many senses. but i don't know. i will say by and large he's been out of the news. he said he doesn't need to be on twitter any day. every day that goes by without him being on tv, we're not hearing from him. by and large that's an improvement. he is stuck in this trap where he sees a world that doesn't really exist to most able-thinking human beings.

>> new york governor andrew cuomo is under investigation by the fbi and u. s. attorneys' office in brooklyn. a senior official familiar with the preliminary inquiry tells nbc news that it involves how state task force members handled coronavirus deaths at nursing homes and long-term care facilities during the pandemic. in the last month, the cuomo administration has significantly increased the official death count at nursing homes to more than 15,000. there are currently no allegations of wrongdoing. overnight, the cuomo administration said in a statement the doj has been looking into this for months. we've been cooperating with them, and we will continue to. meanwhile, senate republicans called on the department of justice to investigate what they call cuomo's covid cover-up.

they ask that the doj probe new york will also, as other states -- as well as other states who used similar tactics to readmit sick, elderly patients into facilities during the pandemic. . >> willie, though, there are parts of this story that we are going to dig into in a little bit with him calling a state legislator, screaming at him, threatening him as part of a coverup. we'll have that state legislator on. and they misled people on the number of nursing home deaths because they feared a justice department investigation and followed up by saying they, quote, froze. froze? what do you mean freeze? how do you freeze in a crisis like this, to your own benefit. this is piling up.

even the democrats in the new york assembly and state legislature are saying they need to pull back the powers that the governor has. >> yeah. we'll hear in just a few minutes live from a queens assemblyman who came out and criticized the moves that we have seen out of the governors mansion from governor cuomo and his aides about nursing homes. for that he says he got a threatening phone call of the governor yelling at him. cuomo denies it was as intense as the assemblyman said. whether or not governor cuomo back last year should have issued this director that sent covid patients from hospitals to open up room and hospital beds back into nursing homes leading to deaths in nursing homes and then underreporting the number of deaths inside nursing homes to clean that up.

that's what these investigations are about, including the one from the state attorney general letitia james, who is a friend and ally of governor cuomo, but is doing her job and looking into this. >> and david drucker, you follow these stories and you follow these memos we're starting to see, and the talk they were afraid that the justice department was going to open investigation against them. so they hid the numbers or underestimated the numbers. and then the explanation from inside the governor's office that they, quote, froze, and the reports from the state assemblyman that cuomo called up yelling and threatening him. it's hard to remember now, but there was a time last spring when people were talking about kicking joe biden off the ticket and putting andrew cuomo because of his daily news conferences.

>> right. it shows you, number one, what having a very sort of calm, logical daily news conference can do to project leadership when under the hood, things aren't going as well as they seem. it's a good lesson to politicians who maybe don't always operate that way. look, i think governor cuomo has a lot to answer to. basically what happened is that they lied and then they tried to cover things up if these allegations are true. it's particularly i'm sure galling for some republican governors who have been receiving withering criticism for the different approach they took to handling the pandemic, allowing their states to remain more open or more on an open hybrid business with businesses and restaurants where schools have been open for a lot longer. and yet they were told they were acting politically and not

taking into account public health concerns. here you have a state where a governor wasn't being forth right with information, took a different approach. it didn't necessarily have any different result than some of the other states that did things teufrpbtly. and one of the things, joe, that i think is happening in terms of the focus on what was going on in new york with the cuomo administration and how they dealt with the virus is you no longer have donald trump talking over everybody hogging the spotlight and making it impossible for inquiries and an investigation and opening up and looking behind the curtain for how others are handling the pandemic. and it's one of the things that republicans theoretically might be able to benefit from given that they no longer have to answer for president trump and his rhetoric. and it allows more attention to be cast on how others are handling the pandemic.

and it may not always look as good as it once did. >> well, here we are. you look at the two main governors that received good reviews early on and have fallen quickly to earth for two different reasons. one, california governor gavin newsom in the middle of a recall because of some decisions he made. and andrew cuomo, who is under investigation. and yesterday because he can't help staying out of the bad news column, ron desantis threatened communities that he would take away vaccines from communities if they didn't like what he was doing. he actually said if manatee county doesn't like us doing this, we're totally fine with putting this in counties who want it. that's all the headlines in the

state of florida that criticized him by taking the vaccine out. >> profiles of courage. >> no. there's a list of people who got credit early being reviewed again. that book from governor cuomo looks worse by the day. governor cuomo and aides have called them partisan attacks. the state attorney general is a democrat. the assemblyman we're going to talk to is a during that time. they are watching what happened. they had relatives who died in nursing homes and believe many could have been prevented if not for the actions of the governor. >> yeah. all right. we're going to be hearing from that assemblyman in just a few minutes. also ahead, former texas congressman beto o'rourke will be our guest. he is pointing the finger at republican leaders for what he says is a failure to prepare for

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36 past the hour. a live look at the washington capitol hill. beautiful shot. doctor anthony fauci appeared to throw cold water on the prospect of every teacher getting a covid vaccine before schools reopen. . >> i think if you were going to say every single teacher needs to be vaccinated before you get back to school, i believe quite frankly, tony, that is a nonworkable situation. i think teachers should absolutely be priority among

those who we consider essential personnel. and you should try to get as many teachers as you possibly can vaccinated as quickly as you possibly can. but to not opening a school until every teacher is vaccinated is not workable and probably most of the teachers would agree with that you want to put a good effort to get as many as you can as quickly as you can. >> more scientific guidance from the federal government that we need to get our schools reopened. yes, dr. fauci says it's important that teachers get vaccines and that they should be moved up in the line. but at the same time don't hold back on opening schools until you have every teacher vaccinated because, according to anthony fauci, according to the

science that has been investigated, it is safe to open schools back up. >> dr. fauci couldn't be more clear on this again and again and again. there's no wiggle room for him. you don't need to vaccinate all teachers. yes, they should be given priority, but it shouldn't be difficult to open a school with distancing, and all the other mitigation efforts. we had him on our show. two weeks ago the head of the have said, dr. walensky said she believes, too, this was her belief from the briefing room at the white house, that not all teachers needed to be for opening all schools. teachers should be given priority, i think we all agree with that. jake sherman, what are you

hearing on capitol hill as we look at this covid relief bill of $1.9 trillion in terms of vaccination efforts and pushing teachers to the front of the line where they should be? >> the democrats have delayed a little bit their crafting of this bill. it will pass likely next weekend through the house. obviously, it includes a lot of money for vaccination, vaccination centers. there's no federal policy. that's what is getting mixed up here. the federal government doesn't mandate when schools open and close. the cdc gives guide answer and localities make decisions. so this bill doesn't have anything to do with that. it does provide money to get the process moving. but i would caution everybody this covid relief bill which includes a lot of provisions, $2 trillion in spending, is going

to be a bumpy ride the next four to six weeks. there are a lot of hurdles, including $15 minimum wage, ar contain budget in the senate. i would caution everyone to buckle up and not get your hopes up high that this will pass without a roller coaster in the interim. >> how much, jake, do you think the final outcome of this bill is going to be shaped by kristen cinema, joe manchin and senator hickenlooper and mark kelly, some of the more moderate democrats who have already -- some already said we're not going to get a $15 minimum wage kroefgz in this bill. it is not going to be $2 trillion. how much are they going to be working to make this a more moderate bill. >> a lot, joe.

and you're hopping on a hobby horse i have been on the next few days. they matter just as much as bernie sanders and elizabeth warren. i know you understand this very well. but democrats i think are failing in understanding they have people in their party, part of their majority who don't agree with all of their priorities. the extent to which they ignore them, it is not going to be helpful. i would imagine by and large, as they get this bill through the senate, they're going to have a tough time just by the rules keeping the minimum wage in. joe manchin and kelliy and hickenlooper will say 2 trillion is too much. pair it back. . >> and david drucker, i keep

hearing the past couple days, statements that the biden administration may be talking about a bath way to citizenship. for all undocumented workers. that's never going to happen. it's never going to happen because joy manchin and kristen simena afferent going to let that happen. and the student debt forgiveness is never going to happen. you get a sense that the democratic leaders are trying to speak to their left, their most progressive members and pursuing policies that they know are never going to pass the united states senate. >> it's always a problem when you win the majority and realize you don't have the votes to get everything done that voters think you have the votes for. democrats have, what, a four or five seat majority in the house. they have to keep everybody together to get anything big

done. then in the senate, it is split. you have the majority because of the tie-breaker. but on major immigration legislation, you need 60 votes. we have seen for 20 years practically with immigration. the two sides cannot come together when it comes to trading security for regulation of illegal immigrants or vice versa. there is just not a lot of trust. it makes it hard for compromise to occur. one would have thought if anybody can do it it would have been the previous president. even still, there were times when republicans wouldn't go along with ideas that trump floated.

it is interesting that president biden moved it to the front of the line. usually it's third, fourth, tpeufgd priority. it is held over for a second term. it is coming after covid relief. will they get there? no. it is a challenge if republicans can stay out of their own way, which is their voters are expecting a lot of legislation, a lot of change. and when you have a majority in the house that is not a governing majority, a majority in the senate, it is not a governing majority, it is going to be very difficult to deliver on items beyond coronavirus relief. >> yeah. you know, victoria, if they start with the position that was announced yesterday, which is citizenship for all undocumented workers, that's never going to pass. it is never going to become law. but there are, if you look at issues, whether it's daca, whatever it is, there are issues

that are 70/30 issues that are 75/25 issues when you start talking about immigration. there is no reason why democrats can't get a couple of republicans to vote with them on some immigration bills if they are bills that reach for the center instead of what was announced yesterday that will never pass the senate or the house. >> so 15 to 20 years ago, immigration was one of the few issues that could garner support from both sides of the aisle. regrettably the last couple of years it has become more and more politicized to the point where we are not going to get anything hefty in terms of comprehensive immigration reform. i hate to say this. it pains me. but i think the comprehensive reform ship has sailed. we're not going to be able to go

back there. looking at the 70/30 splits, the democrats and folks who are in favor of immigration reform are going to have to go at this in piecemeal. start with daca. lockdown daca. provide a pathway to citizenship from the daca recipients. maybe extend it out to their parents. at the same time, figure out how we're going to fix the work permits, the high-tech visas. because there are many issues floating around over the four years that trump was in office. we saw 400 changes, restrictive changes being made to immigration. there is a lot. it is one of incremental steps that build on each other. folks will see the positive results, economic positive results from expanding immigration. and i think that's the only way. it's slow, it's plotting, but it's the only political, viable

route. >> mika, victoria just brought up three issues. a couple issues that i think republicans and democrats can agree on, or at least enough to pass. one is daca and the path to citizenship. the second has to do with high-tech visas. a lot of republicans, conservatives, entrepreneurs who are democrats as well that want that high-tech visa issue taken care of once and for all. thomas friedman always talked about when you have somebody that has an advanced degree from m.i.t., you hand them their graduation and snap on the back a green card to let them stay in, so they use their talents here instead of going back to their home country. and the third issue that's an issue is refugees, political refugees, refugees that need to

get in here because they are they are going through suffering in their homeland. these are 75/25 issues that republicans and democrats can agree with. and as victoria said, it looks like a piecemeal approach to immigration reform is the best way to move on. >> there victoria, david drucker and jake sherman, thank you all for being on the show this morning. up next, we'll talk to the new york assemblyman who says governor andrew cuomo lashed out at him, a fellow democrat over criticism of coronavirus nursing home deaths in the state. "morning joe" will be right back. ning joe" will be right back to support a strong immune system, your body needs routine. centrum helps your immune defenses every day, with vitamin c, d and zinc.

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52 past the hour. and there are no cars up and down, okay, times square cross town traffic. a truck or two. it is just empty in new york city. as we reported earlier this hour, new york governor andrew cuomo is under investigation by the fbi and the u. s. attorneys' office in brooklyn. a senior official familiar with the inquiry says it involves how state task force members handled coronavirus deaths at nursing homes and long-term care facilities during the pandemic. overnight, the cuomo administration said the doj has been looking into this for months. we have been cooperating with them, and we will continue to. at issue is the cuomo administration's failure to report until late january the number of hurriesing home residents who died of the virus after being transferred to hospitals.

and now after increasing the official death count to more than 15,000. a top aide for cuomo admitted last week on a private conference call with democratic lawmakers that the state had withheld data because it feared an investigation by the trump justice department. she said we froze. secretary to the governor me list sa derosa said in part that she was explaining when the state received the federal inquiry, we needed to temporarily set aside the legislature's request to deal with the federal request first. she added, the state was comp hence and i have transparent in our responses to the doj. and now the "new york times" reports the democrat led will strip the emergency powers he

was granted during the pandemic as soon as next week. and one democratic lawmakers questioning the death data for months says governor cuomo threatened him. assemblyman ron kim, whose queens district was hit hard i about the virus, speak out about the handling in a recent interview. kim told the "new york times" after the article was published he received a harassing late night phone call from the governor asking him, are you an honorable man? according to kim, cuomo yelled for 10 minutes, threatened to publicly tarnish his name and urged him to issue a new statement clarifying the remarks. a spokesperson refutes the claims. yesterday cuomo said the two men had a long and hostile relationship.

and ron kim joins us now. so mr. assemblyman, i don't know what your response is to the claim of a long and hostile relationship. i would like to hear more about that. first, i would like to ask about that phone call. what exactly did the governor want you to do and what did he mean by are you an honorable man? can you recount the phone call and what the request was? >> thank you. thank you for having me on the show. when we get closer to the truth behind the growing nursing home scandal in new york, he tries to implicate you in the coverup or threatens your live live hood if you don't lie for him. i was one of six lawmakers in the private meeting for two hours with secretary derosa when she accidentally told us the truth, that there was a coverup and feared that the information had been recognized against governor cuomo. at that moment, i had to tell

the truth and let the public know what happened. and governor cuomo called me the next day at 8:00 p.m. while i was about to bathe my kids. i was with my wife. and for 10 minutes be berated me. he yelled at me. he told me that my career would be over. he has been biting his tongue for months against me. and i had tonight, not tomorrow, tonight to issue a new statement essentially asking me to lie i heard and saw a crime. he's asking me that i did not see that crime. that was a line that he crossed that can't be undone. that's why i had no choice but to come out and speak out. as chair of the asian committee in the state assembly, that's my job. it's my job to ask the tough questions. and i shouldn't be punished for doing my job. . >> so just to be very clear, what exactly was he asking you to lie about, allegedly?

>> he was asking me to issue a statement countering what i heard the previous day. you're a lawyer. that's the first question he asked? i said i am not. you must not have understood what my secretary told you. she didn't say any on that. she said we have to work on the federal government and then the state. that's what she said. go back to your staff, the speaker's staff, drop the statement, and issue that tonight. not tomorrow. do it tonight. >> mr. kim, it's willie geist. i want to read part of a statement yesterday from the cuomo's office. "mr. kim is lying about his conversation with governor cuomo thursday night. i know because i was one of three other people in the room when the phone call occurred. at no time did anyone threaten to destroy anyone with their

wrath oren gauge in a cover up. that comes from an aide to governor cuomo? we don't have to really guess because he went out in his press conference and went on a long rant about your -- allegations against you about your role with nail salons, which is not terribly interesting to our national audience. especially went after you on a more personal level. how did you interpret his comments on the phone thursday night? it. >> was loud enough for my wife to hear. she was in shock. she didn't get any sleep that night. and we were terrified. he left a shocking moment for all of us in our family. and i think every day governor cuomo and his team defends many different versions of the truth. lawmakers like me, we are tasked to get the truth behind what happened at nursing homes. and the truth is this.

governor cuomo allowed top donors to write policies. in order for the state government to cover life and death information and took away our ability to legislate and change the outcomes of this pandemic. that's what happened. when you don't have the full data, how can we know what the problem is that we could have potentially saved lives by intervening and legislating. he took that away from us. instead of talking about that, he is distracting us and making up lies. and that's what his team is very good at doing. it is not too late. i hope he can work with us in getting to the truth because there's 15,000 people who lost loved ones in new york. it's not about me. it's not about the governor. people forget, this is about the families. people who survived covid, how are we going to take care of them with the extra health care

costs, how do we get justice for the families. that's what we need to be focused on. and i hope we can get there soon. >> is it true that he tried to call you four more times after that thursday phone call? >> he did. on saturday, he called me four more times. his staff probably called me another five times. he pushed outside people. it was lunar weekend. my wife was stress pltd. she didn't want to deal with it. i spoke to an attorney. monday we secured counsel. and i said if you want to talk to me, you should just talk to my counsel about this moving forward. >> assemblyman, can you back up for a lot of our national viewers that may not have followed all the details of this the past six months or so. governor cuomo has been criticized in the past for

moving people back into nursing homes. are those the numbers that you and others believe he's trying to cover up? the number of people that died because of moving covid patients into nursing homes? >> i think that's partially it. there was a total of 9,000 covid positive patients that were transferred back to nursing homes in the two-month time period where he had a mandate in. the nursing homes couldn't reject them. they were trying, but they couldn't do this. half the staff members already had covid and they were out. they weren't working. other states might have adopted

the policies. they quickly repealed and moved to appoint where they started banning covid positive nursing homes. that's not the point, joe. you could have made some mistakes. i think the public, myself, we would have similar tpaoeuzed. but he shut us out. he covered information and doubled down, tripled down on the policies. that's why we are here today. we need to move the state forward. >> okay. new york state assembly member ron kim, thank you. we have asked governor cuomo to come on. that invitation still stands open. thank you, sir, for joining us. mike barnicle, columnist for thyme, david french, editor at

launch for the 19th and msnbc contributor, aaron haines. >> great to have everybody with us. david french, boy, what a mess in new york state. some of the governors who were receiving the higher marks early on, andrew cuomo and gavin newsom out in california, both now facing really challenges not only just to their governor ships but also their entire political futures because of mistakes they both have made the last several months. >> yeah. it goes to show you don't write history before the pandemic is over. you have to see how it plays out over the entire long, hard course as this disease goes

through our society. when we finally get a handle on this, when we finally get grips on this, we're going to learn which governors performed truly well and which were more hype and spin. and i think cuomo benefited artificially from being counterprogramming to the wacky press trump conferences. he came across as being much more sensible, compassionate. behind the scenes there was bungling, deception, coverup. you have to wait and see how this whole thing plays out. at the end of the day, some of the heroes will be surprising. . >> he benefited, you're right. he would follow some of the most horrific press conferences where

trump was anti-science. cuomo looked absolutely fantastic. >> i wanted to ask you about donald trump going on the air yesterday and spreading more of the big lie. and not being called out by any of the people that were hosting the shows at that time. after they were using weapons to brutalize police officers, the big lie. as mitch mcconnell said, months and months of lies. liz cheney said, months and months of lies. even it seems a lot of these networks understood it happened because of months and months of lies. "the wall street journal" editorial page because of months and months of lies. the networks let him come on and

spread the big lie again, knowing people are out there who want to commit more crimes against the united states of america. >> well, i mean, of course he did. and of course they did. this is the network for his base. this is also his -- this is what he's been saying for weeks and weeks and weeks. we have evidence that when the capitol was being overrun when this incident was happening, when people were in mortal danger, he was still pressing. comparing them to some of the rioters. this is where he's been for weeks. this is who he is. it's fundamentally who he is. you know, it also demonstrates he hasn't been canceled. he's not a victim of cancel culture. >> can you believe that? can you believe j.d. vance said, oh, it's horrible. what is j.d. vance going, oh,

it's horrible that he has been canceled. he can talk any time he wants. >> any time he wants he can get his message out. he covered up his statement against mitch mcconnell, covered up social media for half a day. he can call whenever he wants to. the reality is he's golfed off to mauer law going and he was voluntarily quiet for a while. and it was nice. it was great not to have his voice. unfortunately, it came back. and it didn't come back in a way to pay tribute to an old friend. it came back to, as you said, to spread the big lie again. >> he has a lot of investigations again. i suspect he will keep his head down for quite some time. maybe not. david, i want to go to the other guests. but when i have you here, this is like potourri with david french. i know that you probably read the letter from adam kinzinger's relatives to adam.

and you actually felt more sorry for the people writing the letter than adam because they are such lost souls. this is just david and me talking. but when you grow up with our background and you believe that jesus christ is the son of god and you believe that is the way not only to salvation but to a great life. you look and you are taught when you're young to look for the lost and to bring them into the flock and give them the joyous life that so many people have that follow jesus christ. i must say, when i was reading that letter, i just -- all i kept thinking with every line was oh, my god, this poor, lost soul, when did she turn? when this d they turn from the gospel of jesus christ?

at what point did following donald trump, the secular institutions, at what point did that become more important than the gospel of jesus christ and the teaching of jesus christ. if i'm talking a lot about j it how this letter was framed and that's how i felt. i did not feel sorry for add many am. i felt sorry for this person and what they represent in our tribe, david. people that have been taught the gospel of jesus christ and even knowing the truth choose darkness. i'm not talking about politics either. i'm talking about the gore fiction and idolization of this personality over what they have known their entire life.

>> i'm glad the letter went out because it showed where an awful lot of americans are. it reflected where a lot of americans are right now. sit a complete contradiction of the strip sure that said god does d not give us the spirit of fear but of power, love, and sound mind. what we have is a spirited fear has overtaken an enormous number of people. what makes it doubly sad, and you hit the nail on the head describing this sad. what makes it doubly sad is that the solution to their fear was donald trump. that donald trump was the instrument, the lord's anointed to save america. and i think it's very important for people to realize the sense of divine mission that a lot of people put onto donald trump was something above and beyond what was put on other presidents and god had a special design for

him. opposing donald trump was opposing god's design to restore and save america. those were the stakes for people, a lot of people in this election. i was glad people saw this as where americans were. it's sad that's where they are, where they were. because it contradicts the faith and hope of strip sure. >> it contradicts the gospel of jesus christ. and here this personality cult has grown around is a man who said he never had to ask god for forgiveness, that he has never felt the need. and anybody that understands the gospel, understands what evangelicals believe understand that that is the first step to being a christian. asking for forgiveness, understanding that you need that forgiveness from jesus christ. and people who have worshipped

this idol. it's the antithesis of everything jesus taught. i'm glad the letter is out there. it's sad we have a personality cult. it is sad they turned to him when they have jesus christ to follow. they have gone from skwraoes taos worshipping donald trump. they should probably go back to leading the bible and let me just recommend they read the red lettered version so you can actually see what jesus says and donald trump, the public mission is the antithesis and matthew 25. that's all i'm going to say. that's the hour of power with david french and joe scarborough. i am i want to ask mike barnicle about what's happening in new york state. andrew cuomo, who was held up as a governor that was doing just

about everything right for months. there has been sit similar of him sending covid patients back into nursing homes. now we have him reportedly threatening democrats and saying he's going to destroy their lives. what do you make of the crisis that's building around andrew cuomo right now? >> you know, joe, it's interesting. you mentioned gavin newsom, greg abbott in texas. the overlying issue is governance. a lot of people believe in strong deposit, making deposit work for the people. governor abbott believes in no government, so they are freezing, partially. with andrew cuomo, it may be arrogant of office. the first time he was elected i think was 2010, re-elected in '14. he's been there 10 years.

and the arrogance that can build up in that period of time, that accounts i think for the phone call to assemblyman kim, who we just heard. and it's endemic in this country that candidates get in there, they get in office, they stay, they stay, they stay. it's particularly noted in the united states senate and the house of representatives. and i think out of all of this all that we have endured, it might be time for a serious look at establishing term limits in the senate and the house and gubernatorial contests as well. . >> mike mentioned the disaster that is taking place in texas right now. hundreds of thousands of people still without power after winter storms, frigid temperatures swept across the state. the biden administration says fema is now supplying generators to texas and preparing to send diesel fuel to ensure the availability of backup power. the agency also providing blankets, bottled water and

meals for the state to distribute. that news comes as grocery stores report shortages on their shelves. the texas tribune reporting texans running low on food are finding empty grocery store shelves, food pantries are running out of supplies, and the freeze wiped out the state's citrus and vegetable crops. and there's another new problem due to freezing temperatures. cities across the state of texas are now under boil water notices. many have been dripping their faucets to prevent frozen pipes from bursting. but water levels are dangerously low and may be unsafe to drink. officials asking people to boil tap water for drinking, cooking, making ice and conserve wherever possible. 600 systems across the state reported disruption in service, affecting about 12 million residents. mika. former texas governor rick perry wrote in a blog posted on

the house minority a leader's website, quote, texans would be without electricity for longer than three days to keep the federal government out of their business. try not to let whatever the crisis of the day is take your eye off for having a resilient grid that keeps america safe, personally, economically and strategically. texas is unique among states in that it has its own electrical grid that is almost spiral separate from the rest of the country and not under the oversight of the federal energy regulatory commission. erin haines, i think at this point some texans might wish it was. >> well, mika, can we just pause for a second to recall rick perry was the former energy secretary. >> and having a hard time with that. >> and having to say to his fellow texans in this moment you saw governor abbott talking

about the -- this energy crisis and tying it to the green new deal, saying this was like alexandria ocasio-cortez, the folks that made the decisions around the state's energy approach in that state. and so you have to wonder in the wake of crises a lot of times, you have folks who turn their frustration into political action. i wonder how many texans are in their homes freezing, possible hungry, wondering how they are going to make this where they can hold the them account bible. these boil water advisories, sure, they are going out. what if you don't have television to get this boil water notice.

what if you don't have internet to logon and find out what you are supposed to do. folks are already died in this situation. temperatures are going to remain below freezing through the rest of this week. this is not necessarily time to talk politics. but you have to believe it will factor into this. this is affecting the daily lives of the folks that are living there right now. >> and boiling water if you have water. there were some hospitals reporting that water wasn't working as of last night. here's what we're going to do. >> up next we will talk to former democratic candidate beto o'rourke, one-time congressman from el paso. he's blaming republican leaders in texas for failing to prepare for the widespread power outages taking. outages taking

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a live look at chicago. 23 past hour. welcome back to "morning joe" on a snowy morning for many of you. joining us former democratic congressman from the state of texas, beto o'rourke. texas is suffering greatly due to these power outages. do you know any new information about an end in sight for those without power and some without water and some hospitals that are struggling. i know where you are specifically there isn't as much as a problem, which you can explain as well. . >> that's right. el paso, where i am, is not part of ercot, which is the electricity grid most of texas operates under. in terms, mika, for the rest of texas, i wish i had better news. it was in the 20s in dallas and fort worth, houston, and san antonio last night with many millions without power and

millions more under boredom water notices. if you don't have power, if you don't have electricity, if you don't have gas, how are you going to boil water if you have any coming out of the faucet. many people don't have water right now. the utilities are unable to predict with any certainty when folks will have powerback. people have been going hours if not days without being able to warm their homes. texas has warming centers set up that folks can go to. some can get a hot meal, water. it's hard if you don't have internet, tv, access to the information sources that will let you do that. i joined about 100 volunteers last night to make calls across texas to senior citizens, to connect them with the warming citizens with a hot meal, water if they need it, and other assistance. but we will need more of that if we will help our fellow texans in the midst of this crisis. how do you assess how the governor has handled this and

also the texas leaders in washington, specifically ted cruz and the representatives here. have they been on the same page? >> i was listening to what mike barnicle had to say about governance. and it really struck a chord. in texas you have an example what happens when a state is governed by those who do not believe in government to begin with. they have had absolute control of the statehouse, lieutenant governor, governor for the last 20 years. the decisions to deregulate ercot and ensure it is not connected to the national grid, and fail to winterize coal, gas, nuclear, solar or the transmission lines that carry that energy to us, the in ability to ensure there is excess capacity for emergencies like these to power our homes and businesses, these are all

decisions that they made. and now of course they are pointing the finger at congressman ocasio-cortez, the green new deal. everyone and everything except for themselves which does not inspire confidence that we are going to get our way out of this or learn from our mistakes. we had a terrible winter storm in 2011 that caused similar rolling blackouts across texas. you would have thought 10 years later, with many of the same people in power we would have learned from that mistake, invested in our infrastructure, and kept our fellow texans safe. that is not what is happening in the state right now. many are left to their own devices and relying on competent local leaders like hi dahl tkpoe, the county james or clay jenkins in dallas. texans are tough people. working together, we will get our way out of this. >> congressman, it's willie geist. good to see you. we have been talking about the strange impulse of a governor

whose state is collapsing rushing on to sean hannity to blame a congresswoman from new york city. say for argument's safe you were governor of texas -- are you running for governor, by the way? >> i'm not. . >> you're not planning on running for governor? >> i haven't really thought about it. right now is not the time to think about it. . >> fair enough. say you were governor, though, what is a realistic plan you could put in place right now with this emergency in the state of texas? what needs to change in terms of the way energy is produced and distributed in the state? >> i'd do four things. one, i would incentivize or mandate that the power generators in texas store additional capacity. in this deregulated ercot market, there is no incentive or requirement to keep additional capacity for weather emergencies like these. because of our emissions excesses, inaction, we are likely to see more severe storms

and droughts and natural disasters that will require that capacity. so let's make sure that it's there. second, i would connect ercot and the rest of texas to the national grid. so when we have excess power, we can sell it to the rest of the market and plow the markets back to weatherizing and improving the generalization in texas. third, i would require those generators to weatherize their systems, which is what we should have done after the freeze in 2011 and what we should absolutely do right now. and fourth and the most important thing, i would take the science and climate change seriously. i would protect the most vulnerable kphraoupbts and invest to take sure texas is the leader for the country in redesigning our energy and electricity systems to make sure that we arrest the changing climate before it is too late. after hurricane harvey, after

the severe droughts in the panhandle, after this storm in 2021 that we are not out of yet, we should know by now this is our future unless we change our course. so those are four things we could do as texans. >> congressman, i don't think we have spoken to you since the presidential election and since the events of january 6th at the capitol where you served for many years. what was that experience like for you to watch and to hear from so many of your friends and colleagues who were inside the building and what did it tell you about the country and where we are right now? . >> it tells me that unless we hold those responsible accountable for what they did. yes, that means donald trump. but it also means the junior senator from the state of texas who i understand is vacationing in cancun right now, when people are literally freeze to go death in the state he was elected to represent and serve, when ted cruz helps to incite that sedition, seeks to overturn a lawfully legitimately

democratically decided election, he is just as culpable for the insurrection, the coup attempt, the deaths, including of cap cole police officers who were trying to defend his life and the lives of others who serve in our capitol. if these folks are not held accountable, if ted cruz is expelled, not forced to resign, then what you have done is you have set the precedent that it is okay to try to overturn an election, to try to overturn our government. and the proudest democracy on the face of the planet will become a memory if we do not fight for it right now. so we should take no comfort in the fact that joe biden was successfully scorn in. no comfort in the fact that congress seems to be operating as normal. this thing is on a roll right now. and if you look at the push in germany, it was 10 years later hitler is chancellor. we are operating under the big lie right now in america.

we've got to stop it. that is up to all of us in this great democracy. >> or there reports senator ted cruz is vacationing in cancun. we have not confirm thad at nbc news. we have calls out to senator cruz's office. we have not heard back. congressman beto o'rourke, great to have you with us this morning. thanks so much. . >> thanks, willie >> mika. . >> david french, we want to get your take on the civil war we're seeing play out within the republican party as we see multiple state legislators censure the republicans who voted to convict former president trump. republican senator susan collins of maine and lisa murkowski of alaska are defending their actions. there are many republicans who disagree very strenuously with my decision, but i would hope they would reach my speech and

realize i adhere to the constitution, it was a vote of conscience. and senator murkowski says they shows there could be political consequences for her vote but said she can't be afraid of that. she said my obligation is to support the constitution that i have pledged to uphold and i will do that even if it means i have to oppose the direction of my state party. she asked that the republican party shouldn't just be the party of trump, saying if we are the party of just one man and not the party of good, solid principles, then that's a challenge, certainly a challenge for me. >> lisa murkowski has run as an independent. she had to deal with crazy owe possibly phoneent the last time she ran. she lost that.

do that. david french, woufpb my favorites for these clowns at the state level, pat toomey, small government conservative. one of three that i can still point to and say, well, at least i still don't know two or three people out there. he's the type of person back before club for arm, he was one of those people that believed in small government and actually fought for small government. like so many of my good friends i came in with in 1994. you had a state -- county party chairman in pennsylvania saying we didn't send pat toomey to

washington, d.c. to do the right thing. we didn't send him up there to vote his conscience. i think that speaks as clearly to the trump party as anything i've heard. >> yeah, it really does. if i had to say two factions that exist right now, the collins and murkowski and romney and sasse faction that said we should have been convicted him and be done with him is so small it's not a significant force at the local and the grassroots level anymore. here's the big faction. the big faction is trump. more trump. if trump doesn't run again, we need more trumpiness. and the smaller faction is, i stood with trump when the democrats and media went after him but we shouldn't do that again. and mitch mcconnell who said i

stood with trump when the democrats came after him and condemns trump to essentially say now we turn the page. and i think that shows the two bigger factions. the smallest faction of all are the ones who said we should have absolutely held him accountable and joined in a bipartisan way to condemn what happened january 6th and to impose accountability for it. the two big factions are trump, always trump, trump is the best. and, hey, i stood with trump but no more trump. that's where you will see this play out the next year, two years. >> yeah. so, david, right now who seems to have the upper hand in the battle? i mean, you look at some polls that show liz cheney loved by democrats and not loved by republicans. she doesn't really want that, by the way. just for all of you out there that think, oh, good for liz.

no, liz does not want that. i guarantee you that. i have all of these people who say trumpism is going to be with us for a long time. i don't think it survives anymore than obama survived obama or reagan survived reagan. am i getting that wrong? >> i don't think you are. i'm more optimistic than some folks. i think that trumpism is going to fade in some pretty real ways. i think trumpism is so much more tied to the cultive unique personality that it is going to be hard for somebody else to stride onto the scene and seize that mantle. the hard-core base is not a majority of the base. it's not. but there is definitely a

cultive personality around him. as he stays down in mauer law going, not center stage, the devotion to him will start to phase. start to be out of sight, out of mind. that's the optimistic take. the pessimistic take, he stays center stage between now and 2024. he decides to run again and immediately clears the field of 95% of all competitors. that's the pessimistic take. but the optimistic take is some loss of politics still hold eventually. and one of the laws of politics is that one-term losers don't tend to be adored over the long term by their parties. >> david french, thank you very much for coming on this morning. coming up, mayor bill de blasio will be our guest with an update how new york city is faring among the coronavirus pandemic.

"morning joe" will be right back. >> we did not send him to vote his conscience. we did not accepted him there to do the right thing. epted him tho do the right thing to support a strong immune system,

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joe". joining us now is the co-chair of the racial justice organization color of change heather mcgee. she's out with a new book entitled "the sum of us." what racism costs everyone and how we can prosper together. in which heather explores how past policies and laws that were racist not only hurt the black

community but the economic growth of all americans. and, heather, why don't we start there. what laws were they? and how do we turn it around now? >> you know, i wrote this back to travel the country and talk to americans of all backgrounds and dig deeply into the research to challenge the zero sum thinking that seems so predominant. it was the main way donald trump saw the world, this us versus them. it's actually growing in popularity, particularly among white americans who seem to be worried that progress for people of color is going to come at their expense. so i set off on this journey and found out that actually we are all paying the cost for racist policies. in fact, citigroup this summer did a report saying if we had closed the economic racial

divides our economy would be $16 trillion larger. >> erin haines? >> well, heather, congratulations on the book, which i think does such a great job of talking about the corrosive nature of racism for everyone, right, not just black americans in this country. and i want to talk to you more about the idea of this zero sum theory that you write about, which is something that president biden frankly has already been talking about in the early days of his administration and attempting to frame this as a potentially unifying thing for people to confront, saying it doesn't mean for black and brown folks to gain something in this country that doesn't mean the white folks have to lose something. usually this is a divisive conversation. but what i want to ask you is why is it time to really reframe the message around race and our politics and just the idea that confronting this now actually is a way for us to get to unity as

a country? >> well, thanks so much for the question, errin. i think that's absolutely right. i was really heartened to see president biden explicitly say a dollar in brown and black folks's pockets does not mean a dollar out of white folks's pockets. the data shows the opposite. i am by no means saying racism, both individual and systemic doesn't hit the target, right? first, the burden is borne by people of color. but it is an illusion and convenient lie to say we can core don the economic and social impacts of discriminatory policies, of environmental in justice as we see in texas, of the kind of withdrawing away, turning our backs on the formula that built the great american middleclass when it was by design and by implementation for whites only.

the kinds of policies we're talking about, whether smart public investments in sub say dieding the mortgage market which the federal deposit in the 20th century said we will not subsidize the development in black neighborhoods exclusively. to the things like the g.i. bill. such a smart public investment in the education of our veterans. yet millions of black veterans were locked out of the benefits of that. now, it's time for us to expand what we do to include everyone. but the problem is, and this is where the image on the cover of my book, the image of a kid jumping into a pool as swimming, interracial swimming experience, the problem is it feels like our country is all in the bottom of a drained public pool. why do i ta you can about a drained public pool, because that's exactly what happened when some of the 2,000 free public pools that used to exist

all across the country, but many of them were segregated. so many towns across the country drained their public pools rather than integrate them. you know, in politics, what that meant was that many white americans turned their backs on the kinds of investments that had built the great american middleclass when they were required to share those investments with people that they had been taught to distrust and disdain. >> hey, heather, congratulations on the book. for some people it can sound like a buzz word. what does that mean exactly? your book explains what it means. you talked about the g.i. bill. you go through history and explain all the barriers that had been put in place for people of color in this country. how now with donald trump out of office, joe biden in office, more and more progressives in

the house of representatives, how do you begin to unwind that? i know it's a big question that is probably an entirely different book. but where do you begin now with the biden administration? >> i think it's a great question. it's the question. i think we begin obviously with what jen started with, which was making the case in these turns. really addressing the sometimes unconscious but always politically active fear that many white americans have that anything good for black and brown people is going to come at their expense. we have to call that out as explicitly as donald trump drove the narrative into white americans's minds over four years and fox news does it on a daily basis. we have to call it out and say, hey, that's wrong. and then we need the kind of smart public investments. there's a debate right now that you covered on canceling student loan debt. for me that is a perfect

example. we have this debt for diploma system in large part because of government cutbacks of the kinds of public funding that used to create college for free when the college-going population was mostly white. white. yet now we have this debt for diploma system that the burden disproportionately falls on black college graduates so much that a black college graduate has less average household wealth than a white high school dropout. but the majority of white students have to borrow, too. this is the kind of policy that could free up our economy, reverse a mistake. student loan debt was never a good way to finance college. it was certainly never a good way to organize our economy. yet we sort of backed into it because of the withdrawal of support for smart public investments in our people as our people became more diverse. >> the new book is "the sum of us: what racism costs everyone

and how we can prosper together." heather mcghee, thank you very much. congratulations on the book. appreciate you coming on. still ahead, the story that joe mentioned last hour. florida governor ron desantis threatens to pull vaccines from one florida county after residents question the placement of a new vaccination site. we'll play for you what he said when "morning joe" comes right back.

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look, if manatee county doesn't like us doing this, we're totally fine with putting this in counties that want it. we're totally happy to do that. anyone saying that, let us know. if you want us to send it to sarasota next time, charlotte, pasco, let us know. we'll do it. i think most people if we can

bring vaccines and do it efficiently, i think they'll want it. >> that was florida governor ron desantis yesterday standing by his controversial decision to set up a vaccine pop-up clinic that only serves residents of two wealthy zip codes. according to the sarasota herald tribune, manatee county received complaints from residents who live outside the two targeted zip codes about not having access to the vaccine clinic which is in a wealthy, predominantly white heavily republican community developed by one of the governor's campaign contributors. a majority of county commissioners also criticized how the clinic is distributing the vaccines. mike barnicle, your thoughts? >> well, you know, this is another combination. we were talking earlier about governance of various states, texas included. this is an example of governance, arrogance and indifference on the part of

governor desantis of florida. the clinic in manatee county is close to long boat key, part of sarasota. you can drop $1,000 just getting out of your car. the idea that there's so many people in florida, as you know, who have stood in long lines at publix supermarkets throughout the state waiting to get a vaccine in areas where the people need vaccine, the elderly, the minorities that need vaccines, and he's indifferent to that by doing this. what can you say? this is the america we're part of right now. >> yeah. we'll talk more about this. still ahead in his first interview post-insurrection, former president trump continues to push his false claims about the 2020 election. with no pushback. and we continue to follow the latest out of texas where millions are still suffering in freezing temperatures this morning. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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johnson school of public affairs at the university of texas, victoria defrancesco soto. it's a great morning to have victoria on because she's living through what's happening in texas. our lead story where millions are still without power this morning after winter storms and frigid temperatures swept through the state. the biden administration says fema is supplying generators to texas and is preparing to send diesel fuel to ensure the availability of backup power. the agency is also providing blankets, bottled water and meals for the state to distribute. that news comes as grocery store reports of shortages and the texas tribune reports that texans running low on food are finding empty grocery store shelves. food pantries are running out of supplies. and the freeze has wiped out

substantial portions of the state's citrus and vegetable crops. willie? >> and there's another big problem in texas. because of the temperatures, cities across the state are under boil water notices. following official guidance, many texans have been dripping faucets to prevent pipes from bursting. but residents were warned yesterday that water levels are dangerously low and may be unsafe to drink. officials are asking people to boil tap water for drinking, cooking and making ice and to conserve water wherever possible. nearly 600 public water systems across the state reported disruptions in service affecting about 12 million residents. >> victoria, there's partially a reason why texas is in this situation now. can you explain the politics of this and why some politicians are saying this is our thing, we have to tough this out? >> mika, texas is on its own power grid. we have two major power grids for the western states and the

eastern states. texas has gone at it alone. there is a history for that that i won't go into now. but what happens is here in texas, after the 2011 severe winter storm that was similar to this one, not quite as bad but similar, a number of recommendations and guidelines were made that the power companies on the texas grid needed to winterize. winterization means you need to pay the price to winterize. however, the state and the state's political leaders made guidelines. they didn't make it obligatory. when the power companies who ultimately are about making a profit, it's a company, when asked to spend the money or not spend the money to winterize, they opted to not winterize.

they opted not to do that and that is why we are in this mess. on top of that, mika, is the fact that, okay, we got into this mess because the power companies didn't follow the recommendations to winterize. because we're at it alone with our own power grid, we weren't easily able to look to other grids to back up the support. it is one policy mess after another that has put us in the situation that we are in now where people are losing their lives. >> it's a total mess. you know, victoria, you talked about the recommendations that were made in 2011 that they ignored. it reminds me after hurricane andrew in florida in 1992. even the conservatives in the republican and democratic legislatures, even the conservatives came together and put tough, new, stringent building codes on homes that were built across the state of florida because they knew to not do that would cost people lives. i'm shocked -- well, not

shocked. really it's disgusting that texas legislators didn't do the same thing following 2011, put those requirements down. that's the first thing. second, i want to get your impression of what rick perry said, that texans would rather freeze through three or four days without power than to get help from the national government. do you think that's how most texans feel? >> one word comes to mind, joe, and that is heartless. i was without power for 36 hours. i was one of the lucky ones. i have a fireplace. i'm healthy. for those folks in our community, in our state that don't have the ability to go to warming places that have vulnerabilities, health conditions. because let's also compound this with the fact that the vaccine

rollout has been botched here in texas. so it's easy to say, hang tough, stick it out, when you're in a place of privilege either because you're healthy, you haven't lost power or you have all of these resources that allow you to do that. but for those of us who are so vulnerable in this community, that is completely heartless. >> yeah. we'll take a look at what he said more specifically in a moment, but during a news conference yesterday, texas governor greg abbott was asked about a claim he made this week that renewable energy sources responsible for the power outages. here's what he said on fox news tuesday night compared to his comments yesterday. >> it shows how the green new deal would be a deadly deal for the united states of america. texas is blessed with multiple sources of energy such as natural gas and oil and nuclear as well as solar and wind. but you saw from what trace

said, and that is our wind and solar got shut down and they were collectively more than 10% of our power grid. it just shows fossil fuel is necessary for the state of texas, as well as other states to make sure we'll be able to heat our homes in the wintertime and cool our homes in the summertime. >> the fact is every source of power the state of texas has access to has been compromised because of the cold temperature or because of equipment failures. i made it clear that the fact that if we relied solely on green energy, that would be a challenge. but in texas, we do not rely solely on green energy, we have access to all sources of energy. >> david drucker, it was a bizarre claim bringing up the green new deal in the first place.

i'm surprised the governor would do that when he knows the overwhelming majority of the power comes from traditional power sources like coal and other fossil fuels, first of all. secondly, as bill karins brought up yesterday, the reason the windmills didn't work is because they bought the wrong ones. >> as the governor stated his news conference verses the opinion talk show, the equipment wasn't ready, even though they had their second generational storm in the decade. they just weren't prepared. possibly harboring ambitions beyond that, the question will be whether the republican-controlled legislature and the governor get together to make sure this never happens again. there is plenty texas can do to

upgrade its equipment to be able to handle weather events that don't involve it submitting to the national grid or becoming a fully regulated energy state like some of its democratic controlled neighbors. there is a lot of soul searching for republican leaders in texas to do and there's a lot of work to do. it will be interesting to see, one, if they get to work immediately doing that or dismissing this as, you know, some sort of freak accident that they don't have to pay attention to. and it will be interesting to see whether voters in texas demand more. texas is more competitive politically than it was back in 2011. and i don't know that a lot of the new arrivals to texas like new arrivals in houston, austin, which is growing like crazy, are going to be satisfied with a, hey, we just tough it out here. don't worry. i have family and friends in texas. even for people that were privileged enough to have nice homes and things like that, they didn't have power. they didn't have access to

water. i have friends who ended up in the car because they had heat and they could put their kids in front of a movie on a screen. so this is a very serious problem and could develop into a political problem. i'll just say this. if governor abbott can attack this, deal with it and start to fix the problem, this could be something that could be part of his political legacy that would help the state and help him. but i think the question is how much appetite there is going to be to be a little bit more regulatory minded when it comes to the energy industry in the wake of this. coming up, we'll check in with bill karins to see when texas and states across the south will get above freezing. and apparently getting sued about the elections was not enough for allowing one news network to allow donald trump to come back on and keep spreading

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act now! ♪♪ president trump was back on television yesterday and still spreading lies about the 2020 election. he appeared on a number of shows to talk about the passing of rush limbaugh. and in those appearances, he pushed what has become known as the big lie, that he actually won the election. >> rush thought we won. i do, too. >> that's a lie. >> i don't think that could have happened to a democrat, you would have had riots all over

the place if it happened to a democrat. >> it was actually trump supporters to beat police officers. >> bad things happened but you've covered that -- >> cops have been beaten up and he's lied about it. >> it's a disgrace. it's a disgrace. >> nobody agrees with you there. yeah. talk about a second and third world country, because he lied repeatedly to supporters who have really had their brains -- have been brainwashed. they actually believed his lies. ignored the fact that 62 or 63 hearings were heard in federal courts and said there were no merits to his lies. the big lie didn't hold up in court. and also, on top of that, not only did the big lie not hold up in court, his own judges -- >> right. >> -- donald trump's own

appointed judges said there was no merit to anything they were saying. >> and so-called news hosts could have said that to him when he said that on television yesterday as their guest. trump also told one america news that he was robbed of the election. jake sherman -- >> i don't understand, mika. they stopped mr. pillow. if they're going to stop mr. pillow, why couldn't they stop this guy? >> we could ask jake. >> he couldn't speak for them. >> he can't speak for mr. pillow. >> jake, do you have a my pillow? >> i don't. i never tested it. no, i don't. although i do need a new pillow. but i don't think i'm going to go to him. >> jake, don't bother. it's filled with lies. we're curious that news operations would allow anybody to come on and continue to spread a big lie that led to

an insurrection against the united states of america, led to cops being beaten up within inches of their lives with american flags. lead to another cop being brutalized by trump terrorists so much so that he thought he was going to die and leave his four daughters and family behind. i'm surprised -- are you surprised that anybody would allow this guy to come on and spread the lies that mr. pillow was cut off from spreading? >> yeah. i would say i'm not surprised. here's what i would say. here's the lucky thing for our political system. and i agree, that most of his supporters are brainwashed, and it's become almost like a cult. we've seen adam kinzinger get letters from his family and if you read them, they are just buying into donald trump's myths and lies. it's kind of scary. but i would say this -- most of the political system has moved on, right?

you might not think they have moved on quick enough or strong enough, but no one cares what he says anymore right now for the most part. i'm in the capitol every day. i can tell you there is an entire government that is trying to get work done and by and large not paying attention to him. >> but, jake, there's an entire government trying to ignore him. i just -- isn't this a poisoning of the public trust, especially as it pertains to the media which trump attacked every day of his presidency, to have so-called news organizations not saying a word about the big lie, not saying a word about judge after judge after judge that threw these claims out. >> yeah. i think -- and the only way to handle it frankly is what joe just did, is to say each claim he's making is complete nonsense and complete

bs. but i'm not surprised because many of the networks we saw were the same were networks that put him on for his whole presidency and allowed -- and trump used them as mouthpieces. coming up, new york mayor bill deblasio is standing by. he joins us next on "morning joe." ♪♪ ♪♪ comfort in the extreme. the lincoln family of luxury suvs.

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♪♪ welcome back. the nightmare continues in texas as millions of people suffer in freezing temperatures without power and heat. and now water issues. for more on the extreme cold, let's bring in meteorologist bill karins. bill? >> good morning. it's just one thing after another. there's so many winter headlines out of this area. the big one is the power. yesterday at this time, 3 million texans didn't have power. right now it's down to 500,000. so a large portion of the people, the grid went back on last night. that's good. now we have other problems. look at texarkana, texas.

areas from little rock to texarkana picked up 8 to 12 inches of snow. little rock had the fourth largest snowstorm in the city's history. in louisiana there was freezing rain. there's still 100,000 people in oregon without power from the storm on sunday. it's a mess from one area to another. the frigid morning continues. 24 degrees in dallas. the windchill in oklahoma city is 12. now that we're getting power back, 7 million people in texas are still under a boil water order. that's a huge number of texans when you think about 29 million people live in the state. we'll have record cold possible for oklahoma city, dallas, beaumont, abilene, this is for tomorrow morning. it's not until the weekend that things improve.

temperatures into the 50s and 60s by saturday to sunday. the big storm that hit little rock yesterday has moved east. we have a nasty morning under way from north carolina to virginia. there's been a lot of ice in areas from raleigh to charlotte through to roanoke. washington, d.c. had snow mixed with sleet. now the snow is breaking out in areas like new york city. there's one round left in areas of texas and san antonio could get some freezing drizzle. the high-impact stuff is from northern maryland, southeast pennsylvania, maybe even new york city this afternoon with snow totals around 4 to 8 inches. this is an incredible stretch of winter weather. we dealt with one snowstorm, all-time record cold. another snowstorm and now more record cold coming tomorrow. we have not seen a winter like this in a long time. more "morning joe" coming up. stay with us.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it's 30 past the hour. a live look at a snowy, cold new york city. that's where we go next. life expectancy in the u.s. fell by a full year in the first six months of 2020. the largest drop since world war ii. according to a new report from the national center for health statistics, life expectancy at birth for the total u.s. population was 77.8 years. a decline of one full year from what it was in 2019. the group that suffered the largest decline was non-hispanic black males whose life expectancy dropped by three years. deaths from the coronavirus are the main factor in the overall drop according to the report.

and joining us now, new york city mayor bill deblasio. mayor deblasio, thank you for being on this morning. looking at that report along with other factors, tell us first of all how new york city is faring as it pertains to coronavirus. >> i tell you, mika, just some reflecting on what you said, i'm thinking of people we've lost, you know? i'm thinking about the families who are suffering right now because someone is missing. we're fighting back. we're fighting back here in new york city and we're making progress, but our biggest problem is we don't have enough supply of the vaccine. last week, we vaccinated almost 320,000 people. but i could be doing literally half a million a week if i had the supply i needed. this is the frustrating part. i talked to some of our seniors who -- this is like -- it's not overstating it, it's a life and

death matter for them. they feel it's a life and death matter. they feel if they can get that vaccine they'll be around to see their grandchildren, and if they don't, they may not. it's frustrating that we can't give them that opportunity. but we'll keep building the capacity. we need the supply so we can reach people. >> mr. mayor, where is the bottleneck in this? for people who are frustrated to get their appointment center canceled or postponed when they were excited to go in and get it, what do you say to them? why don't you have the supply that you need? >> it's such a fundamental question. look, i believe the biden administration is doing everything possible to speed up the supply, but i think something is still broken in the way the pharmaceutical industry is handling this. we have three companies, precisely three in the entire nation who are producing vaccine. there's a huge pharmaceutical industry. they got lots of resources.

they've done really well. i don't see them on the playing field, the rest of these companies, giving their assembly lines over to the war effort, if you will. that's frustrating to think we're not getting all the vaccine we could get. there's also bottlenecks because of state rules, there's so many things. i talked to mayors around the country, they say just give us the vaccine directly when it goes through states including some state governments that are hostile to their cities. it slows down everything and confuses everything. it's about getting the allotments directly to the cities. where is the greatest danger in many cases? the big cities. that would help us to speed this effort. >> the pharmaceutical companies are the ones who pulled off the miracle of developing this in less than a year, they say they're making it as fast as they can, but you're right, it needs to get to the places it needs to be. let's talk about schools in new york city. a lot of excitement about next

week as you open up the middle schools in new york city. there's been a lot of planning. there's been some contradiction between the city and the state about whether or not student also have to be tested when they go in. it sounds like you worked that out. what does the school day look like for those kids? how did you make it safe? are you confident it will be safe for students and teachers? >> let's talk about the joy, willie. there's a lot of parents in new york city who are really happy that middle school is coming back next week, who are relieved to -- they love their children but they're ready for a break. >> correct. >> and also kids who want to be with their peers and want to have all the good that comes from kids connecting together again. so in a week, middle school comes back. it's going to be safe because we've really set the gold standard for this nation. we looked at the beginning of opening schools in september. we said let's take the best approaches from around the world. all kids all wear masks. our kids are tested. a big sample of each school

tested every week. you know, these are the things that have worked. our schools are the safest places to be in new york city. first middle school, then i look forward to high school. i have to tell you, this whole country has to reopen our schools. enough is enough. our kids need it. they're suffering -- let's be clear, it's not just academic loss. our kids are suffering emotionally. if they're not in school, it's bad for them. it's bad for their emotional development. for a lot of kids it's very, very painful to not have that chance to go to school. we've got to pay more attention to that. >> they don't learn as much. mr. mayor, this morning we've been talking about new york governor andrew cuomo being under investigation by the fbi and the u.s. attorney's office in brooklyn. it's a preliminary inquiry into the cuomo administration's failure to report until late january the number of nursing home residents who died of the virus after being transferred to

hospitals. now over the last month significantly increasing the official death count at nursing homes to more than 15,000. what i want to ask you about is earlier in the show we had on democratic assemblyman ron kim, who has been questioning the nursing home death data for months. he says governor cuomo threatened him in a phone call for that criticism. here's some of what he told us this morning. >> governor cuomo called me the next day at 8:00 p.m., while i was about to bathe my kids. i was with my wife and for ten minutes he berated me, yelled at me. he told me that my career would be over. he's been biting his tongue for months against me. i had tonight -- not tomorrow, tonight to issue a new statement essentially asking me to lie and asking me -- i heard and i saw a crime the other day. he's asking me that i did not

see that crime. that was the line that he -- a line that he crossed that can't be undone. that's why i had no choice but to come out and speak up. >> so, a senior adviser for governor cuomo says kim is lying. at no time did anyone threaten to destroy anyone with their wrath. i don't want you to weigh in on that specifically, but you know governor cuomo. you guys have jostled in the past. kim says he got this irate phone call that started out, are you an honorable man? it went for ten minutes of him yelling and then threats to publicly tarnish him. is that -- have you ever heard of anything like that from governor cuomo? have you ever spoken with him and anything like that happened? >> yeah. it's a sad thing to say, mika, but that's classic andrew cuomo. a lot of people in new york state have received those phone

calls. you know, the bullying is nothing new. i believe ron kim and it's very, very sad, no public servant, no person who is telling the truth should be treated that way. but yeah, the threats, the belittling, the demand that someone change their statement right at that moment, many, many times i've heard that and i know a lot of other people in the state have heard that. >> so you believe assemblyman kim, that he was threatened? >> 100%. first of all, i know him. he's a good public servant. i've always seen him as a person of integrity. it's just the script is exactly what a lot of us have heard before. it's not a surprise. it's sad. it's not the way people should be treated. you know, a lot of people get intimidated by that. i give him credit for not being intimidated. >> let me ask you about the doj

investigation. obviously some -- i'm sure some of these deaths involve people in the city. how concerned are you about the doj investigation and do you believe that they need to conduct an aggressive investigation because of things you've seen? >> yeah. we need a full investigation. unquestionably. this is about thousands of peoples lives. this is about our elders and there are families right now in new york state that lost a grandma, a grandpa, they lost an aunt or uncle. they're not sure what happened here. they worry that something was done wrong. and the big question, how do we make sure it never happens again? this really hasn't been investigated. the truth has not come out yet. we need it. we need it. these are peoples lives. the notion that information was held back for political convenience instead of the blunt truth coming out so we could save lives, something is profoundly wrong there. >> the state attorney general,

as you know, is looking into that as well. i want to ask you about the state of the economy in new york city. as i walk out my front door in new york city, my diner closed over there, my dry cleaner closed, my barbershop two weeks ago went out of business. they're fighting to figure out how to make it work for the next steps. that's just one corner of thousands across new york city where small businesses are closing. what do you say to those small business owners who are so desperate for relief? obviously they'll be looking to this massive package from the federal government. what should they expect from the city? >> listen, we've got to bring them back. i really believe, willie, we're going to bring back so many of our small businesses. you know this is a small business city. >> yep. >> this is a city where people, especially immigrant new yorkers made their dream and created their own family business. that's our heart and soul. so we'll have tax breaks for small businesses.

we'll provide additional loans on top of the good efforts we've seen from the state and federal level. i want to make sure that aid gets to the small businesses particularly in communities of color where they had challenges with the way the aid was constructed. but i know new york city is coming back. you go all over the five boroughs, you see it beginning already. but with 5 million people vaccinated -- by june, i want 5 million new yorkers fully vaccinated. if i have the supply i can do it. i can make sure 500,000 people get vaccinated every week. that's the capacity we have now. maybe we can go further and faster. when this city is vaccinated at that level, this economy will come booming back because there's so much pent-up demand. those small businesses, people want to go to them. no one is traveling around the country. they'll spend their money in their neighborhood at those small businesses. i believe you'll see a surge of activity once we get to that

vaccination level and that second half of the year will be very strong in new york city. >> all right. new york city mayor bill deblasio, thank you very much for being on this morning. we wish you the best in the efforts in new york city to combat the coronavirus. up next, more on the economy. with the weekly report on jobless claims crossing just moments ago, we'll tell you where things stand. keep it right here on "morning joe." introducing voltaren arthritis pain gel. the first full prescription strength

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♪♪ the weekly unemployment claims are out from the department of labor. and last week adding 861,000 jobless claims. joining us now for a look at where the economy stands we have editor-in-chief of the economist, zanny minton beddoes. long-time media executive at large at "newsweek" and cnbc founder and contributor, tom rogers joins us. and co-founder and ceo of the swedish bank, sebastian siemiatkowski. i hope i pronounced that okay. >> thank you all so much for being here. zanny, a debate in the united states right now. not that hearty of a debate because it looks like we have

political leaders who have concluded that more is better. but there is some concern that a $2 trillion covid relief package could fuel inflation. what are your thoughts and what do economists on both sides of the atlantic believe about that package? >> so, i think you're right that this is basically a debate in the u.s. right now. the europeans have no risk of inflation any time soon, but in the u.s. there's a debate. there's been a huge amount of stimulus already in the u.s. economy. adding 1.9 trillion worried some democratic economists and many republican economists, it's a huge amount of stimulus to add to an economy that once it puts covid behind us will be accelerating rapidly. the question of how much risk there is right now, inflation is low. inflation expectations are rising slightly. i think it's unlikely to be

catastrophic any time soon, but there's a few things to keep you worried. one is you have a fed that is determined to stay loose for longer. you have an enormous amount of stimulus and financial markets predicated on inflation being low and interest rates nearzero for a period of time. if any of that shifts, you could see a shake-up quickly. i'm not sitting on the edge of my chair worried, but i think there's a bigger risk than many people think. most important, if you're going to spend that much money, spend it, i think, on things like public infrastructure investment, green agenda, all the big things that need to happen that the biden administration wants to do later on. if it's already had this huge stimulus program, there may be less appetite to do that further down. i think it's more a political question than an economic one right now. >> i couldn't agree more. and those democratic economists i speak to who are concerned about this believe that it's

$2 trillion political statement that is being made rather than a cogent economic package and program, that it's not targeted enough. tom rogers, i know that i know right now the pressure in washington, d.c. is to do as much as possible but you even have people like larry summers who has not rang the alarm about inflation in the past. suddenly saying he's concerned about inflationary pressures and also concerned about something i've been worried about a quarter of a century and that is that we're piling too much federal debt on top of 23, 24, $25 trillion worth of federal debt that we already have sitting there. >> well, that's absolutely true, joe, and there are those concerns that are emerging but the prevalent view because the

fed does not seem to be very concerned about inflation, is that it's not a near term worry and you look at the business community, you look at the stock market, and they seem to want a big stimulus coupled with accommodative interest rates. and the combination seems to be fueling a market which has big business quite happy. a small business situation is a very different one where you have small businesses throughout the united states really, really suffering and what's really interesting about the small business community is, it is overwhelmingly republican. and that small business community, nonetheless, supports a really big relief stimulus package. and as a result that's where you get president biden saying, well, i can have a bipartisan package even if i don't get bipartisan support in congress, meaning there are major pockets of republican support that are

looking to have a big package stimulus, even if it's not as targeted as some would have it as you suggest. >> so sebastian, we've seen reports that savings rate in the united states has gone up actually during the pandemic, but tell me what type of consumer trends are you seeing on both sides of the atlantic? >> well, i'm really worried, partially because i think the stock market before -- is clouding the judgment for a lot of us. we are higher level income people and this is most the divisive economic impact i've ever seen and it's increasing the gap between low income wage and middle income. we have a middle income class who hasn't lost their jobs, who have to some degree gotten some of the stimulus, amazon calculated they're saving up to $60 billion a month by not spending on travel or restaurants, they're funneling that market into stock markets, retail investment has gone from

10% to 25% of the stock markets. we have these stock markets booming, because all of that money from middle income is going into savings and then we're looking at it and saying the economy is doing quite well. the stock market couldn't be this happy if things weren't that bad. at the same time we have low income people who don't have access to that. the last stimulus check buzz 328 days ago. that's $4 a day. 800 businesses per day are going out of business and mostly it's really impacting women, more than 100% of the job loss was women, 16,000 gain among men in december in the u.s. and the black women and the latinos are the worst hit. i think that's what's getting us worried and we're seeing middle income people doing really well, they have more savings, they're paying down credit card debt, 50% reduction in credit card debt overall in the u.s., that's great, there's a shift to debit card usage, that's fantastic but the stock market and all the money that's funneling in from

the saved money is clouding our judgment and we're losing sight of the people that are really suffering. >> so, sebastian, richard haas said at the beginning of the pandemic that we should not expect that the pandemic would change the arc of history, it would rather accelerate history. it seems that when you talk about the divide, what you're talking about right now, by the wealthiest americans and those on main street who are suffering, it seems that we have seen that, especially in income disparity between the richest americans and the richest europeans and those who are struggling just to get by. >> very much so because for us middle income who have, you know, who have used some of that surplus to do fun things, go to restaurants and travel, we have now saved that money. all of us have been on a massive eight months quarantine, and we have sat at home and haven't spent that money. all of us have more money than ever where there's the

low-income people who have never had that surplus have had to spend it on groceries and rent and have lost their jobs because it's in the service economy most of those jobs are. i can't imagine a crisis that could have had a more unfortunate impact on that divide than this one. >> zany, i wonder if you reflect sebastian's concerns sort of about the economy right now, seeming like it's headed in the right directions with some indicators, but true worries when you look under the hood. and also, i know the economist has a podcast called "the jab" and it's about the vaccine. and i guess playing into that, how the vaccine could perhaps change things for the better the quicker it comes. >> so i think sebastian's absolutely right. i think this pandemic has not only shown a spotlight on existing inequalities, it's made them much source and clearly people at the lower end of the skill ladder, at the lower end

of the income ladder have been hurt much, much, much more than those higher up which is why i think it's really important that stimulus packages are targeted on the people that need them most and that we're not spraying money willy nilly across people who don't need them. i think that, you know, more broadly, what happens -- we need to get this pandemic behind us as far as is possible but one thing that i think we're all a little in danger of doing is assuming the minute we have the jab, as we call it on this side of the atlantic, it is behind us. and i think the thing that is dawning on people is that this is unfortunately something that is going to be with us globally for a long time and so the kind of recovery we have is not going to be recovery of the world that goes back to where it was before or suddenly puts the pandemic behind us, it's going to be much like a "k" shape recovery, with some sectors being hit quite hard. those are the ones that need to

be helped most. many parts of the biden plan are targeted at people that need the help most but that's really where we should focus things. >> let's finish with your latest in newsweek. we talked earlier this morning about how the former president was able to go on networks and spread the big lie that led, of course, to the insurrection and the beatings of cops with flags and insurrection against the united states of america and they never corrected him. >> well, joe, if i told you that at&t and disney and walmart were sponsoring internet sites that provide all kinds of misinformation about the big lie that you just mentioned, or about covid-19 as we were just talking about, you'd say, what? and if i said, well, pfizer is

actually sponsoring sites which talk about the pandemic having been planned by bill gates, or if i told you actually that the cdc was sponsoring sites which talk about how wearing a mask is a way to increase your risk of getting covid-19, or if i told you there were a thousand brands out there that were sponsoring sites about how dr. fauci is going to make millions off the pandemic, you'd say that's crazy, that's not possible. well, it is possible, and it's happening. thanks to patricia duff who co-wrote this column with me, "the ceo of the common good" who jumped all this issue based on a report by news guard, by a former wall street publisher. and they were actually able to see that 4,300 brands over the last year have sponsored 42,000

ads, 42,000 ads with all kind of covid misinformation and 1,600 brands sponsoring information about the big lie. and the reason this is happening is because of a new phenomena called program advertising, algorithms match data about audiences with ads from sponsors on the fly. great, efficient, immediate way to connect an audience with an ad. but we have these ads going on out there and these brands are not aware of where their ads are showing up and they are showing up in some of the darkest, worst, most horrible sources of misinformation about the big lie and covid-19. and this is something that is the financial underpinning of some of the worst misinformation out there. >> obviously misinformation that led to deaths and led to an insurrection against the united states government. >> all right, tom rogers, zanny

bedoes and sebastian, thank you so much for being on this morning, we really appreciate it. boy, a lot to cover, especially the news on governor cuomo. we'll be following that and have much more for you tomorrow morning on "morning joe," that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is thursday, february 18th, let's get smarter. millions of americans are waking up to freezing temperatures today as the massive winter storm that crushed the south is now moving toward the east coast. but right now no place is worse off than the state of texas, where hundreds of thousands of people are still without power for a fourth straight day. it has been a slow motion disaster. that started when a winter storm overwhelmed the power grid and