those numbers so far are not moving. and that's going to be a real challenge for them. thank you all for getting up way too early with us on this monday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, march 22nd. with us on this monday morning, we have white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lamir, the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton joins us. staff writer at "the atlantic" magazine and author of the book, twilight of democracy, anne applebaum joins us this morning. also with us, u.s. national editor at the "financial times," ed luce. and we begin this morning with the official that led the

january investigation of the capitol riot now saying the evidence supports charges of sedition. in a "60 minutes" interview that aired last night, michael sherwin, the interim u.s. attorney who stepped down from the investigation on friday was asked why more people weren't being charged with sedition and whether prosecutors are looking into former president trump's role in the riot. take a look. >> seems like a very low bar. and i wonder why you're not charging that now. >> i don't think it's a low bar, scott, but i'll tell you this. i personally believe the evidence is trending towards that and probably meets that evidence. >> do you anticipate sedition charges against some of these suspects? >> i believe the facts do support those charges. and i think that as we go forward, more facts will support that, scott. >> has the role of former president trump been part of your investigation? >> we have soccer moms from ohio that were arrested saying, well, i did this because my president

said i had to take back our house. that moves the needle towards that direction. maybe the president is culpable for those actions. but also, you see in the public record, too, militia members saying, you know what, we did this because trump just talks a big game. he's just all talk. we did what he wouldn't do. >> in short, you have investigators looking into the president's role? >> we have people looking at everything. >> sherwin has resumed his position as a federal prosecutor in miami. meanwhile, "the new york times" yesterday released a report using police radio communications synchronized with footage at the show, showing the realtime struggle of officers, trying to protect the capitol. >> we're not here for you! we're here for america! >> the capitol police force request backup. these internal radio communications are from the

reinforcements. officers from d.c.'s municipal police force or mpd were called in to help the police. >> cruiser 50. mount up. >> cruiser 50 is the call sign for the leader of the mpd response, robert glover, who specializes in crowd control and high-stakes confrontations. over the next minutes, the mpd radio communications synchronized with footage from the scene analyzed with the "new york times" reveal the gauntlet glover and his team face trying to hold the line at the capitol. >> multiple capitol injuries, multiple capitol injuries. >> it's been five minutes since glover's team arrived. already, he's calling in officer injuries. he hears from other police on the radio, who warn that the situation is about to get even worse. >> be advised.

>> reporter: now that president trump has left the stage at the other end of the national mall, crowds of people are streaming towards the capitol. >> by advised, we've got a group of about 60 charging up the hill on the left front. >> reporter: glover is still asking for the munitions unit. >> cruiser 50, dso, now! dso! >> reporter: injuries are mounting. >> multiple law enforcement injuries. dso, get up here! >> reporter: police escalate their response and start using more crowd control weapons. >> they're shooting into their own people. we represent blue lives and this is what they do to us! >> multiple deployments by capitol mpd. >> move back! move back! >> let's bring in "new york times" reporter and msnbc national security analyst, michael schmidt, who contributed to this realtime look into what officers were going through that day, trying to protect the

capitol on january the 6th. mike, as you pieced all of this together, what did you learn? >> i think the most important thing about hold the line, about what it was like to be on the front lines of this fight is the sustained nature of this. most interactions, most violent interactions that officers have happen pretty quickly. they happen over a matter of seconds. sometimes they happen over a matter of minutes. sometimes there's a, you know, an extended version of that. but officers rarely confront hand-to-hand combat like soldiers over hours and hours. and the fact that these officers were thrust into this situation is just such an unusual challenge to them. it's just so different than anything they have had to

experience before. and that trauma, the fact that it went on so long is one of the reasons why you've had so many injuries, why you had so many severe injuries, things that we usually do not see officers having to experience in normal day-to-day american policing. and to be able to see through the eyes of these officers that were there, trying to hold the line, and what happens when the line is breached and they eventually have to retreat. and certainly, obviously, this knocks out any of these conspiratorial notions that have been pushed about the fact that these trump supporters were not violent and such. i mean, these ridiculous claims. but unfortunately, we live in this society where showing this video is just so important to the bare-boned facts of what went on. >> ann applebaum, the timing of not only this being released by

"the new york times," but also the "60 minutes" interview last night lines up, unfortunately, all too well with your piece in the atlantic. the science of making americans hurt their own country. and anne, this isn't something that just happened in the week leading up to january the 6th. there is propaganda coming in from russia, propaganda coming in from across the world, trying to divide americans, trying to -- and again, for those talking russian hoax, i remember listening to general mike hayden in 2017, talking about how it was very clear that russians were trying to divide us along lines to create exactly this type of incident, this type of response to something in the past would have been debated on television or in letters to the

editor. >> so he wrote that piece really in response to intelligence analysis that was published a few days ago about the 2020 election, showing the way in which -- i mean, most of which we saw play out in realtime, in which russian intelligence officers gave rudy giuliani information that he then passed on to far-right media and fox in order to discredit joe biden and his family. but you're right, the science of how to divide americans is something that outsiders have studied for a long time, how to feed conspiracy theories, how to create anger. i mean, i think the capitol riot is unfortunately the illustration of how well domestically they have internalized those same methods. the creation of alternative worlds in which people live, you know, most of the people you saw at the capitol live in an alternative world in which they

believe that trump won the election, they don't have a -- you know, they don't see other kinds of news or they've learned to disregard other kinds of news. and the tactics that originally russian tactics are now internalized by americans and used that way. so, you know, you have outside forces and internal forces really cooperating together in a number of different ways. >> and internalized by people like republican senator ron johnson, who keeps playing down the severity of the january 6th attacks on the capitol. last week, he said he was never threatened. >> really? >> would have been more concerned if the marchers were from black lives matter. at a local political event over the weekend, he made another false claim. lying to the crowd saying, there was much more violence on the house side. there was no violence on the senate side in terms of the chamber. here's a photo of a man dressed in combat gear inside the senate

chamber with zip ties. here's a report from "the washington post," actually, with more on the threat to the senate, specifically. >> lawmakers in both the house and senate chambers are meeting to certify electoral votes for president-elect joe biden. outside, a man uses a police shield to smash a window. he was seen earlier that day with members of the proud boys, a far-right group with a history of violence. a group from the crowd enters the capitol a floor below where the senate is in session. a minute later, at 2:13, pence is ushered off the senate floor to a nearby office. senate president pro tem charles e. grassley begins presides, but almost immediately calls a recess. >> senate will stand in recess until the call of the chair. >> at that moment, one floor below the senate chamber,

rioters enter and begin pursuing a lone capitol police officer, eugene goodman up a staircase to the second floor. they are nearing the chamber, which is filled with lawmakers. >> where's the senate?! second floor! >> the rioters at one point pass within 100 feet of where pence is huddled with his family. goodman leaves the mob away to a nearby entrance of the chamber and toward a line of police. >> really tricked them. >> you have a united states senator falsely telling spott supporters that there wasn't much violence on the senate side in terms of the chamber and ron johnson spreading

disinformation, it seems, every day. and, again, this is not a new phenomenon. of course, there was another wisconsin senator who did the same thing back in the 1950s. but certainly, he seems to be taking his cues from a lot of disinformation coming from other sources. >> look, what we saw at the capitol was not republicans versus democrats. it wasn't partisanship in the way that we're used to thinking of. it wasn't a right/left battle. it was a group of people who were against the system sitz. they were trying to prevent congress from recognizing naming the next president. so they were actually an anti-semitic, antidemocratic group. in order to sustain their -- you know, their new ideology, as i said, they live in a kind of alternate reality and, you know, one of the most dangerous things that's happening now is that there are people who are

elected, who are in power, people who know better, who continue to sustain this group, because they see that it might have partisan political advantage. you know, if they can keep that group going, if they can keep them energized, you know, they think they can use that to win elections. and that's very scary. it's one of the -- you know, one of the first times in recent american history that we've had american politicians seeking to energize anti-democratic, anti-american groups of people that are against our elections and against our political system as a political tool. >> yeah. and joe, i mean, ron johnson's behavior, his comments, are they seditious? are they supporting sedition? because it's just appalling that there's no check and balance on this type of language on the floor. >> well, obviously, if it was on the floor, that is going to be protected --

>> or to the media. >> well, at the end of the day, most politicians end up answering to their voters. but in this case, we've been showing video throughout the day, remarkable video from "the new york times," remarkable video from "the washington post," lining all of these things up. and if you look at the definition of sedition, being in a conspiracy to commit sedition, it lines up perfectly with what we've seen. we've seen a picture of mike pence presiding over the united states senate, james langford talking. we saw people breaking into the senate windows down below. sedition, of course, if you look at the federal statute, it's where you actively cause a disruption or to stop a legal process. whether it's passing legislation or a constitutional process. that is exactly what's going on here, ed luce. and if you look at these tapes that mike schmidt's talked about. if you look at "the new york times" tapes and all the others and look at the time code and see the intent, which is clearly

to stop the constitutional process of counting these electoral ballots. and what we heard last night on "60 minutes" actually lines up with the law. this is a textbook, a textbook definition of sedition. >> for sure it is. you know, i don't think there's any question of that in any reasonable mind, whether the prosecutors or people who have been paying attention to what's been coming out on video and in terms of the indictments of these 400 or so people so far, that have been indicted. i think the concern here is that there's not going to be any way to get to the top of this. we're going to get to the bottom in terms of oathkeepers and proud boys and various near-confederate groups that were clearly, you know, conspiring and there are transcripts of, you know, encrypted communications between them. there was clearly a plan here to

do what happened. the concern is that those who were ultimately responsible for goading and inciting this unprecedented attack on democracy in the united states, starting with donald trump, are going to get off scot-free. and whilst that is the case, then people like ron johnson are going to thrive in this environment. you mentioned the wisconsin background and joe mccarthy. well, joe mccarthy was ultimately shunned by his own colleagues. he went too far. he discomforted even some hardline republicans who were with him. ron johnson isn't yet being shunned by anybody. he is in a -- he's in a party where there is still acceptable rhetoric. where there are no heads being bowed in shame. where if you look at the house side, you have a qanon caucus sort of building up. and so i think the concern here

is, you want prosecutors to get to the top of this. not just to the bottom of it. and i don't know how easy that's going to be or whether there is any political will to do that. >> jonathan lamir, i know it sounds bizarre, certainly bizarre to people like anne and myself, who grew up either in families filled with cold warriors or who actually worked to help in small or large ways during the cold war, but you've actually got republicans and these democratic forces that anne's talking about, and you could go through it, chapter and verse over the past several years about how we talk about russian disinformation, but you actually have people on the far right who are -- who are actually supportive of vladimir

putin. i mean, there are polls you can google right now that show how vladimir putin's approval rating shot up in the republican party, when donald trump was president. but you can also see during the ukraine/russia skirmishes, right-wing commentators, cheering against ukraine. cheering for russia. you see other people this past week actually bizarrely cheering for a putin/biden debate. >> come on. >> and bizarrely saying that biden would be wiped out by putin. many of them are now puffing up vladimir putin in the same way that they've puffed up donald trump.

it is bizarre and would love to get your input and your insight on it. >> yeah, joe, it's extraordinary. for some years now, putin had really gained popularity among the real fringes of the right. because of his hypermasculinity and whiteness and strength, that image that he likes to portray. but what's happened during the trump administration, that sort of crossed over into somewhat more mainstream republican views. not all, of course, but some, on the right. suddenly sort of sided with putin and wanted to suggest that he was one to be emulated. and certainly trump himself fawned over the russian president, time after time. and we know how deferential he was on matters of election interference and not. and even though trump is now off the stage and no longer president, this hasn't gone away. and you're right, what we've seen the last few days, after joe biden called vladimir putin a killer, which was sort of a shocking moment of diplomacy, if you will, but one that's certainly accurate.

we know putin, ex-kgb, and the way the russians have poisoned dissidents there in their own country. and the good kremlin hit back and putin indeed challenge kd ed biden to this debate. and we've seen this phenomenon where some on the right, where some hosts on fox news seem to be cheering putin on or suggesting that biden was a coward for not taking him up on this. and we've seen ron johnson spout disinformation. johnson seems to be the go-to source right now of this sheer nonsense, these baseless accusations and assertions about january 6th. a moment now that as a final note, perhaps, again, carries some legal danger for the president. the focus of late for donald trump had been about new york and his business interests, maybe even georgia. but now listening to that interview from "60 minutes" last night, maybe the former president should be concerned about washington, too. >> anne, let me go back to you.

it's obviously something you follow your closely. none of us would have believed you would have a major party cheering on vladimir putin or cheering russia in wars with ukraine or cheering on vladimir putin when it came to a bizarre debate challenge or actually having senators spreading disinformation after being warned by intelligence agencies not display that information because it was connected to putin, yet they continue to do that. >> it's interesting, a few decades ago we would have been talking about exactly the different phenomenon. everything the soviet union did was good, now everything the

united states does is bad. now we have a similar phenomenon, where there's some on the far right and some even in congress who have a similar fascination with modern russia. and it comes out of a dislike of their own country. they don't like what modern america is and they seem some kind of ideal abroad. you know, it's funny, because just as the left never really understood the soviet union, the right now doesn't understand or know much about russia. russia, you know, they imagine it's some kind of a white christian, you know, nativist, nationalist country. it's actually a country with a big muslim population, including one part of the country, chechnya is actually run by sharia law. that's actually how it's run. it's a country that represses some christian groups. it will arrest evangelicals. it's not a country of religious freedom. it's not a conflation of christians at all. it's a country that, as you say,

arrests and murders dissidents. including some who are outside the country. they use poison to kill people who have left russia. and yet, as i say, there's a part of the far right that now imagines somehow because russia is on their side, they can use russia in their partisan wars, inside the united states. it's a bizarre phenomenon and i'm hoping that the more patriotic, mainstream members of the republican congress will start to fight back against. >> there are of course concerns about the anti-democratic forces, the ill liberalism not only you've seen as the rise of president trump and the republican party, but as anne has documented so well in poland and hungary and anti-democratic

forces. we saw those anti-democratic forces on january the 6th. we're also seeing anti-democratic forces, not as dramatically, they're trying to pass legislation, but still, anti-democratic forces who were trying to pass legislation that's going to restrict voting, because they believe the only way they can get elected, they, i'm talking about republican legislatures across the country, the only way their candidates can be elected is by restricting the vote as much as possible and getting as few people voting as possible. this is a party that i believe has lost seven of the eight last popular votes in presidential contests. >> when you look at the laws that are being proposed in over 40 states to suppress votes, it is in the same spirit of people that feel that they can engage in outright sedition, because they want to have their way and their rule in this country.

i think what is the most disturbing part is how people that you would consider in the past mainstream republicans tolerate this both in the state legislatures and when you come a senator johnson in the senate that says outright that if the same kind of crowd was outside and had been black lives matter or antifa, i would have been concerned. these people are patriots. not that these people are clearly behaving in a violent, seditious matter. the "60 minutes" tape shows us that the evidence even goes that way. but the color of their skin and the fact that they are on our side in an us/against them battle and this was begin to see across the country and duplicated against the world, this is very disturbing because it's a threat to democracy

itself. >> and michael schmidt, you actually interviewed people at the riot. there were people interviewed at the riot and you in this analysis followed the movements of oathkeepers. the tells what you found and just how organized this assault on american democracy was. again, we're bringing this up, obviously, there's a new explosive "new york times" report out last night, "60 minutes" had, i think, not shocking information, but important information that a lot of these people are probably going to be brought up on sedition charges. and so we're getting more perspective on this event, as we move forward, just as we've been saying for months, we were going to. what did you see in reviewing the tape and following the path of these oathkeepers? how organized was this assault on american democracy?

>> i think that's something that has stood out in the footage and in the court documents that have come out. how much this was not just a spontaneous thing that just happened to crop up of, you know, people that were sort of riled up. this was really a premeditated event. and it was something that the president, you know, basically took his base, he dipped his base in lighter fluid for many weeks, and then lit the match himself. i think the thing that stuck out with me about all of this stuff that we're talking about and ron johnson and where we are as a country is that there's a sort of a new version of this coming out of johnson's mouth. and "the times" takes that on today in a story about him and that's him basically, you know, not encouraging people to take the vaccine. it's using the same tactics that have been used about the election and applying them to the vaccine. my colleagues who talked to johnson for this profile they

did of him asked him about the vaccine. and he basically gives this sort of thing, well, you know, there's a lot of questions and was unwilling to go along with encouraging people to take the vaccine. and as we know, the biggest problem among many problems that the country has is getting that -- the president -- the former president, trump's base, to take the vaccine. and here you are, having the person who has assumed the mantle from trump of the disinformation really casting doubt on the vaccine. and that has obviously enormous, enormous implications. >> all right. michael schmidt, thank you so much for coming on this morning with your reporting. the realtime look at what officers went through, right to protect the capitol on january 6th is online right now. >> and the people doing this were the ones chanting "blue lives matter."

really? >> anne applebaum, thank you very much as well. we'll be reading your latest piece for "the atlantic" on the science of making americans hurt their own country. still ahead on "morning joe," brand-new data about astrazeneca's coronavirus vaccine. could the united states soon have a fourth vaccination option? plus, a state of emergency in miami beach, as spring breakers overwhelm the city. also, the latest from the southern border, as homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas hits the airwaves to defend biden's immigration strategy. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. watching "m we'll be right back. in? exactly jen! calm + restore oat gel is formulated with prebiotic oat. and strengthens skin's moisture barrier. uh! i love it! aveeno® healthy. it's our nature.™

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welcome back to "morning joe." look at that beautiful sunrise over washington, d.c. it is 33 past the hour. even a little traffic.

>> president trump's mar-a-lago club in palm beach, florida, remains partially closed due to at least one positive covid-19 case according to a staffer. some have been asked to quarantine. service is suspended in the club's dining room and beach club, but banquet and event services remain open. okay, let's go to a party! it remains unclear for how long. trump's official office has not yet responded to requests for comment. >> not sure why we did that story, but go ahead. >> also in florida, miami beach has declared a state of emergency. >> a little more relevant. >> in an effort to prevent an uptick in covid cases similar to last year's spring break surge. the city is currently enforcing an evening curfew and other covid restrictions. look at this. >> look like t.j.'s backyard on a weekend. >> this is a lot of people. okay.

however, the pandemic has not stopped tourists from flocking to miami beach. police have made more than a thousand arrests since february 3rd. more than 50 over the past weekend. police officers did anticipate an influx of travelers and increased restrictions, but the measures did little to curb large gatherings. >> what could go wrong? >> that's a super spreader. and this morning, new data has been released from a large clinical trial of astrazeneca's coronavirus vaccine in the united states. it shows the vaccine is 79% effective in preventing symptomatic illness and offers complete protection against severe disease and hospitalization. astrazeneca says it will continue to analyze the data and prepare to submit analysis to the u.s. food and drug administration for emergency use authorization in the coming weeks. >> so ed luce, this has become a real crisis in europe, obviously, over the past several

weeks, because of the real concerns of blood clotting and the concerns that actually cross europe. the vaccine that they put so much faith in was not as effective, but there's been a u-turn. tell us about it. >> yeah, the astrazeneca thing has been complicated by the fact that it's partly british. it's the oxford university in collaboration with this angelo-swedish company, astrazeneca. and it coincided with brexit. and then it turned out that in january, the european union -- the european commission had ordered way too few vaccines of all types, moderna and pfizer included. and that astrazeneca was unable to deliver as many as it had pledged to deliver. and so the real crisis that we're now seeing get worse, in fact, in europe, was exacerbated by astrazeneca's failure to deliver what it had pledged to

deliver. we then had i think what now turns out to be exaggerated or unsubstantiated claims that astrazeneca could trigger blood clots and thrombosis and some death in people. it turns out that that isn't true. it isn't backed up by scientific evidence. it's anecdotal. but a number of countries, starting with germany, temporarily suspended astrazeneca, thereby making the shortage of vaccines in the slowness of europe's rollout even worse. now, the european medicine's agency, which is their equivalent of the fda, says it's perfectly safe to use. in britain, 17 million people have been given astrazeneca shots and there's no higher death rate there from blood clots than there is amongst the population that hasn't been

given astrazeneca shots. so the politics of this is where the real problem is. and if you look across europe, if you look at opinion polls, large majorities now, particularly in france, which is home to vaccine skepticism or anti-vaccinationer sentiment, are saying they're going to refute to take astrazeneca. even if they do get the supply they want and do lift the suspensions of its use, the population is basically now biased against it. it's not a happy story, the european union and vaccine rollout. it's a serious crisis for brussels. >> all right. joining us now, infectious diseases physician and medical director of the special pathogens university at the boston university school of medicine, dr. naheed bedelia.

and from the piece of video we showed from miami alone, the real weak spot in our society is going to be the young people who don't get it, and aside from shutting everything down, it seems like we need this vaccine out there as fast as possible. how is that balanced? because social distancing guidelines are great, but in order to get people to actually not spread this virus, we're going to have to lock everything down again. how quickly is it possible, given what's out there, to get that vaccine in everybody's arms? >> mika, this morning, the news from astrazeneca is one step towards that, we already have an arsenal of doses of astrazeneca, so this study, 32,000 people basically shows very good efficacy in general from symptomatic disease, but really good protection from death and hospitalization and severe disease, as you mentioned. there's going to be one more step towards it.

there is a -- so, i'll tell you the good news. the good news is the more people that get vaccinated over the next few months, even with the type of, you know, changes in behavior, population behavior that you see, like the stuff in miami, hopefully even if we have a big surge, a fourth surge, hopefully the mortality in hospitalizations will be lower than what we saw with prior surges, because we have vaccinated some of the most vulnerable people. but people of all age get hospitalized. because, there are 50-year-old, 40-year-olds and my age who have comorbidities and can get hospitalized and die from this disease. so having only 13% of our population vaccinated at this point does not take us out into clear blue skies yet. and the astrazeneca, as ed luce said, is going to be an important step, because it has normal refrigeration. i think hay did an analysis in their study, in the press release that they released, that they showed no differences in the incidence of these blood

clots. it so will be interesting to see the data and the fda evaluation of it, because it definitely is a tool that we need. >> jonathan lamir is with us and has a question for you, doctor. jonathan? >> good morning, doctor. if past is prologue, it seems like every time europe has a surge, it comes here just a couple of weeks later. so my question to you is, how concerned you about what you're seeing in europe? we've seen cases, the decline in cases across the u.s. slow. they've sort of plateaued and even ticked up in a couple of regions. and what can be done to convince americans who are so hesitant to take the vaccine? what can be done to make them get these shots? >> you know, jonathan, i think what we have in our advantage is we are vaccinating more people per hundred citizens than europe is, but we are also, you know -- i think there's a lot more pandemic fatigue now than there was in the first two waves. and what doesn't help is, you know, many governors of many states sort of just say, things

are back to normal, because people take signal of what is allowed, of what is safe. and that's what you're seeing, is that combined with pandemic fatigue, you just see people let their guard down. but i'm heartened to see that there is a lot of demand. yes, the path to herd immunity or, you know, this version of america where most of us are immune, vaccinated immune, such that we no longer have this outbreak, there are real hurdles to that. one is the vaccine hesitancy. the other is if we have uneven distributions. right, if you have, even before covid, like, if you look at measles, what happened in 2019 is you had the most number of cases since 1992, the diseases that we had a vaccine for for decades, partly because you had pockets of community that did not take the vaccine in the same amount. we need to avoid that, target those communities, give them the information that they need and work on that disinformation. >> so we've spoken about this before, rev.

i've just seen some new numbers, though, talking about skepticism among communities for -- of people of color. recent ncaa survey showed that only 14% of young black americans expect to get the vaccine. and you've talked about this in the past, talked about how progress needs to be made. especially since it is black americans who have disproportionately been impacted by covid-19. what can be done, what is your organization doing, what are others doing to try to try to educate not just young black americans, but all americans that this is safe, much safer than not taking the vaccine. >> first thing is that we had to deal with the accessibility of the vaccine. and i think that there's been a lot of strides. in fact, today, in the staff new york, there's going to be the

announcement of churches that now will act as places where people can come get vaccinated. and what that does is not only give access, joe, it also gives places that people have trusted and know, both young and black. that they would not feel that these houses of worship, where they married and buried their dead and has been a backbone of their families, whether they were attendees or not, would not be the place where the vaccines were given, if it were not safe. i'm going to get my second shot today, as soon as i leave the show. so i think as people that have fought and been in the trenches for their communities stand up and say, this is alien to us, have been advising us against history, those of us that have fought to continue the traditions of history, of making our communities safe need to stand up and stand out. but we must have stations of

access. that's what we're doing what we're doing in new york today. >> all right, rev. dr. naheed bedelia, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning, great to see you. and ed luce, thank you, as well. >> can i ask ed really quickly about your most recent column about joe biden. there are a lot of american economists who are concerned that we're just basically pumping the economy with an infusion of cash and that it's going to burn off and eventually it's going to be just one more bubble that this country is experienced over the past 20 years. forever what you've seen and what you've written, explain why you think it may be more. >> so this i think the pandemic, across many fronts, has changed the -- it's been a sea change in american politics. and stuff that you would haven't managed happening a year ago is now -- is now considered not

just sort of mainstream, but likely. we're going to get a boom at some point later this year. once we reach something like herd immunity, once in-person services come back, all of these savings that americans have built up in their savings account will be spent. we're going to have high growth and it's going to last six, eight, nine, twelve months catch-up growth and then we'll revert to trend growth. i think the opportunity that biden has with this change in politics is to really shift middle class earning power in a way that, you know, we haven't seen since maybe the great society of the 1960s or even the new deal of the 1930s. this is a window of opportunity to address middle class income stagnation, which has been dogging america since the '70s. with a brief exception of the

1990s, when there was middle class growth. and i think that window is going to slam shut pretty quickly. so, biden has the opportunity, as unlikely as he might be as the vector of this to be an historic president who could take the sting out of populism as well, by addressing this pessimism that has dogged america's middle class and by doing so permanently with big structural reforms. >> all right. ed luce, thank you. coming up, the message from the president and vice president to the asian american community in atlanta, in the wake of last week's murders. we'll play those remarks, next on "morning joe." we'll play those remarks, next on "morning joe. hmmm... where to go today?

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know this. too many asian americans have been walking up and down the streets and worrying, waking up each morning the past year feeling their safety and the safety of their loved ones are at stake. they've been attacked, blamed, scapegoated and harassed. they've been verbally assaulted and physically assaulted, killed. over all the good that laws can do, we have to change our hearts. hate can have no safe harbor in america. >> racism is real in america. and it has always been. xenophobia is real in america and always has been. sexism, too. ultimately, this is about who we are as a nation. this is about how we treat people, with dignity and

respect. everyone has the right to go to work, to go to school, to walk down the street and be safe. and also, the right to be recognized as an american. not as the other. not as "them," but as us. >> the president and vice president on friday addressing the rise in hate incidents against asian americans. the president is now urging congress to pass the covid-19 hate crimes act, which aims to increase justice department oversight of covid-related hate crimes and make hate crimes information more accessible to the asian american community. now to the concerns of another community that too often feels unprotected and the group that's stepping up to do something about it. they're known as the nfac, an unarmed all-black militia you

might have seen -- an armed black militia that you might have seen at protests in georgia, kentucky, and d.c. joining us now from atlanta with more on this, nbc news correspondent morgan radford. morgan, tell us about this group. >> mika, good morning. the bottom line is this group says that the u.s. government as well as law enforcement simply does not do enough to protect black americans in this country, which is why they say they're taking matters into their own hands. and interestingly, mika, this is a group that is growing. they say they now boast recruits in nearly every single state. so we decided to go and embed with them and see exactly what they're doing and why. take a listen. >> reporter: the sounds of war, right here at home. this is the nfac. an all-black militia with a mission to defend the black community by any means necessary. so this is training for one of

the new chapters? >> yes. >> reporter: appearing by the hundreds at protests from stone mountain, georgia, to louisville, kentucky, demanding justice for police killings and countering what they believe is the threat of right-wing militias. it's a movement started in 2017 by this man, former musician and army veteran, john grandmaster j. johnson. is the movement growing? >> by leaps and bounds. >> reporter: we met with him outside of cincinnati, where he said another new chapter is now in the works. >> the nfac stands for the not f'ing around coalition. >> reporter: what's behind the name? >> the nafc was born out of the last four years out of the trump administration. the deterioration of racial relations in this country. it means that we are preparing yourself to defend yourselves. >> reporter: while the group's style echos the "black panther" party of the 1960s, their goals are distinct, focusing on

defense, with an ultimate goal of a black ethno state. >> our goal is a place where we can determine our own future. >> reporter: is violence an option to determine your goals? >> the united states was built on violence being an option. violence should be the last option. >> reporter: extremism experts say the group is distinct from far-right militias. >> they have not risen to the level of concern of say the 3% ers or the oathkeepers. they have not engaged in violence. in fact, in midwest of their demonstrations, they have coordinated their activities with police. >> reporter: when we talk about january 6th and you saw those rioters storm the capitol, what do you say to critics who say, you're to different from them? you're extremists, they're extremists. >> show us where we've done those things? they've killed people. they have disrespected the government to the point where they've invaded their sacred

halls. show me where we've done those things, because we have done none of them. >> reporter: we were allowed rare access to one of their training sites at a secret location in georgia. >> we are now driving to the nfac training facility. >> reporter: we spoke to one member who chose to go by the code name shy to protect her anonymity. >> this is the handgun course? >> correct. >> reporter: and what do you do next? >> we are going to the area where we practice our primary weapons firing. >> reporter: why did you decide to join this movement? >> it's for the cause. we have to learn how to defend ourselves. >> reporter: you all have normal jobs? >> absolutely, we're business owners, doctors, lawyers, we're your everyday person, anywhere from walmart to the corporate sector. >> reporter: what are you all training for? >> we're training for self-defense. >> reporter: a response to show they won't be scared or unprotected any longer.

mika, we asked the group several times to give us an exact number of their membership. they refused to do so, but it appears to be in the thousands based on the number of people who have come to their marches. and also based on the number of people who saw at one individual training session. but it's also important to note, mika, that the nfac has no record of violent incidents. however, their leader, grand master j., has been recently indicted on federal charges by federal officials who allege that he pointed a rifle at officers during that demonstration in support of breonna taylor in louisville, kentucky, last september. that case is ongoing. he has pleaded not guilty and we are waiting to find out the results of that case, mika. >> morgan radford, thank you for that incredible report. >> so, reverend al, it's interesting, i think back to the 1960s, reading about unrest, in

specifically los angeles. and suddenly, there were white legislatures when black americans were getting armed. there were white legislatures who suddenly supported gun control. then that changed. it will be curious to see what happened. we're so used to seeing white middle-aged guys with military-style weapons hanging out around state legislatures and just walking around casually with them. it's going to be interesting to see what reaction it is when it's not white guys doing that outside of state legislatures, but it's actually an organized black militia. >> i agree. it will be interesting. and what i think is also interesting is that we've not seen this group go to state legislatures or go to any places of government and threaten them. it is really surprising to me that we've not seen more groups

grow in the black community before, given that you had what happened the georgia floyd, breonna taylor, ahmaud arbery, brooks, all happened within a short span of time. it is a natural thing for some people to say, we're going to defend ourselves. i come out of the martin luther king school of thought of non-violent resistance, but i grew up in a time that i saw the panthers form, even though i was in another part of the movement. i do note, though, that they've said that they're not going to be offensive, they're there for defense. and that violence is a last resort. those of us in the king movement don't believe in violence, but i do think that they are a lot different than the aggressive, seditious groups that we're seeing on the right. we'll see where it goes. >> i think just generally, mika, it's insanity that state legislatures in michigan or any states allow anybody to carry

military-style weapons into a legislative body or as we saw during the election, carrying around ar-15 or ar-15-style weapons around voting locations when things are as heated as they are. if that's their -- if that's what they think the definition of the second amendment is, they probably should go back and read what scalia wrote in heller, because that's not what that reads. >> it's now one minute past the top of the hour. reverend al sharpton and jonathan lemire are still with us and join the conversation. kasie hunt and donny deutsch is with us as well. let's get to the latest from the southern border, as the united states sees its biggest surge of migrants in decades, according to data obtained by nbc news from customs and border

protection. as of yesterday morning, nearly 5,000 unaccompanied migrant children are in custody. and of those, over 800 have been in detention for over ten days. that is significantly longer than the 72 hours a child is legally intended to be held. based on the report, all facilities except for one in big bend, texas, are over capacity. in total, nearly 10,000 immigrants of all ages are in border patrol facilities built for about 3,200 people. a health and human services official tells nbc news that as of sunday evening, there were 10,800 unaccompanied migrant children in hhs care. homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas appeared on five different networks yesterday to defend the president's immigration strategy, arguing that the southern border -- the southern u.s. border is closed. >> our message has been

straightforward and simple. and it's true. the border is closed. we are expelling families. we are expelling single adults. and we've made a decision that we will not expel young, vulnerable children. i think we are executing on our plans and quite frankly, when we are finished doing so, the american public will look back on this and say we've secured our border and we upheld our values and principles as a nation. please remember something. that president trump dismantled the orderly, humane and efficient way of allowing children to make their claims under united states law in their home countries. he dismantled the central american minors program. so we are rebuilding those orderly and safe processes as quickly as possible. but in the meantime, in the meantime, we will not expel into the mexican desert, for example, three orphaned children whom i

saw over the last two weeks. we just won't do that. that's not who we are. >> so jonathan lemire, obviously the biden white house is running into a crisis and that humanitarian crisis is growing. you don't have to put children in cages to have a humanitarian crisis growing at the southern border. are there some regrets, at least off the record, that they completely got rid of all of donald trump's and the trump administration's immigration policies, like, for instance, where if you're going to make an asylum claim, you need to make an asylum claim either in mexico or the country where you're coming from. >> well, joe, there's certainly a recognition in the biden white house that this is a growing problem for them. the humanitarian crisis, certainly, but also a political dilemma. and obviously, they blame a lot of this or not trump administration. we heard the secretary say that repeatedly yesterday. but there is a sense that they

were caught a little bit flat-footed here. that they weren't really ready for the surge of migrants that would come, timed to a new president taking office. i asked president biden yesterday on the south lawn when he came back from camp david what had to be done here. he said himself that he would be traveling to the border before too long. and he acknowledged that their messaging needed to be better. they needed to drive home the idea that these migrants did, indeed, need to make the -- go through the proper channels, restore the system, where they could make the claims from their home countries. because right now, with the border dominating headlines, it's overwhelming what the white house wants to talk about, which is the covid-19 relief bill. >> well, jonathan, again, they're trying to blame the trump administration, but a lot of outside observers are saying that actually the mistake they made was, their language was too inviting. first of all, and secondly, too encouraging of people. and secondly, they did throw out a lot of guidelines that the

trump administration had that would have prevented this crisis from happening. >> right. i think, joe, the off-the-record regrets come about the messaging. in those first few days when president biden overturned some of former president's immigration strategies, that it seemed to be sending too clear of a signal that, hey, it was interpreted by migrants, even if president biden didn't say this, but it was interpreted as a welcome sign, that now is the time to come. certainly, the language has shifted here from the white house and they're being very clear, now's not the time, stay home, give us an opportunity to fix the system and then we'll process you, but it's a little bit late for you. that is a concern. those in the white house do feel that's a problem, which is why we're seeing such a scramble now to try to get ahold of this before it get further out of hand. >> let's bring in white house bureau chief for "the washington post" and msnbc senior political analyst, ashley parker. and immigration correspondent

for politico, sabrina rodriguez. and ashley, i want to start with you. you've got a sweeping piece, you're the lead reporter in "the post", looking at this situation, the lead line, no end in sight. what are the possibilities for an end in sight? what's the biden administration trying to do to contain this problem? >> well, that's exactly what the biden administration is scrambling to figure out right now. they came in very deliberately wanting to send the message that they were going to offer a more humane and more welcoming immigration policy than former president trump. the mere fact of biden did that, the challenge is that while they were doing these things, rolling back some of trump's executive orders, biden did five of those on the first day alone. they made a very critical decision to accept unaccompanied minors in, which is something trump had been expelling them

back to mexico. they did not have the systems in place to sort of handle the capacity for what that would mean for this new immigration system. so their immediate goal now is scrambling to get the resources and the capacity at the southern border. and when it comes to those children specifically, their two top goals, they told me, are to immediately get them out of customs and border patrols custody as quickly as possible and place them with a safe embedded family member at the southern border. they think if they can do that, that will buy them a little time to get the immigration system many place that they want and that they need. >> but ashley, as you report, the biden administration has said they will continue to allow unaccompanied minors to come to the united states. as long as they do that, are they not actually encouraging this flood of refugees to continue? and also, encouraging a lot of minors to make a perilous

journey, where their life could be in danger. i heard the secretary say, we're not going to turn them around at the border and send them back out into the mexican desert, but their message is actually sending them through the mexican desert to the united states by saying, come in, we will let unaccompanied minors in. >> you're right. that's absolutely the end result. first of all, they stopped using title 42, which is an emergency public health order to expel unaccompanied children back to mexico. so that alone means they're taking those children in. that creates its own surge at the border. that's a physical surge. and those actions, that message, which even though they're saying, help is on the way, don't come now, we talked to representative coyar, a democrat who represents a border district in texas, who likened it to saying, don't rob a bank now, rob it later. and the end you've seen in our piece, he visited one of these facilities and talked to a bunch of 16 and 17-year-olds and he

asked them, are you hearing the message from the president who said, don't come. and they shook their heads no. and he said, are you hearing the message, that now is your moment, this is your chance, they all raised their hand, they all said "yes," and they said, yes, that's the message we're hearing. this is our opportunity. the biden administration says that's not what they're saying, but that's not what is being heard by these migrants making the dangerous journey north. >> all right. mika? >> sabrina, i'm just curious if the biden administration, from your reporting and from what you're seeing, had any foresight on not just the president's messaging, but on this influx that was bound to happen? >> i think, mika, if you talk to folks within the biden administration and dhs and the immigrant advocates that are involved in all of this, they knew that the numbers were going up already before the biden

administration entered into office, so it's not fully a surprise that these numbers are going up. this happens with, you know, changes of administration, changes of policy, so to some extent, they knew. but to another extent, they are overwhelmed and surprised by what's happening. and i think, you know, there's two perspectives that are miss ing oftentimes when we talk about this debate. and it's one of the migrants. if you ask a migrant why they're coming, they don't directly talk about trump, they don't talk about biden, they don't talk about washington at all for that matter. they're telling you very real conditions that they are fleeing, whether that is desperation from last year's back-to-back hurricanes that impacted -- you know, a lot of them were left homeless. they talk to you about the violence, the poverty. there was one mother with two small children that i spoke to that i asked her why she was coming, and her answer was that she had started receiving threats to kidnap and kill her children if she didn't pay a fee. there's very real desperation

behind why these families are coming. and with the biden administration promising a fair and humane system, i mean, it's expected to some extent that we're going to be in this situation right now. >> and ashley, from representative cuellar, you guys got access to pictures -- axios got pictures of -- i'm sorry, axios got pictures of these facilities, inside them, and you can see them here now. this is, again, through representative cuellar. >> and we -- >> completely overrun. >> overrun. and chris murphy talked about going down there, senator chris murphy, talked about actually going down there, having tears in his eyes about just how bad the situation was. others saying, this is certainly not children in cages and everyone is doing the best they can do, but the situation is absolutely dreadful. is there any chance that the

biden administration will reverse course and send a message, let unaccompanied minors know that they are not going to be automatically be granted access to this country, because these are the scenes we'll see for a very long time if that message keptkeeps getti sent out. >> so far, that is not what they've signaled. they are trying to take other steps. we reported late last week that they sort of reached a deal with mexico, that they will provide more vaccine to mexico and mexico has agreed to take back some more of these families into the country, which will help alleviate capacity at the border. mexico has agreed to do more on border enforcement. but for our story, we spoke to ambassador susan rice. she was someone who took a trip to the southern border to view two of those facilities with those children. and she basically said, unless we absolutely have to, so she did leave up a sliver of possibility. but her main message was, unless we absolutely have to, america

under joe biden is not going to be a country that is going to send unaccompanied minor children back into mexico. they are not looking to change that policy. and again, intentionally or not, it does send a message, especially to those children or families who want a better life for their children that now might be a good time to make that risky journey. >> "the washington post's" ashley parker and politico's sabrina rodriguez, thank you both very much for your reporting. we will be talking about this again with you both soon. >> thank you so much. you know, donny, i'm sorry, the thinking of the biden administration is so backwards. and we're not going to send accompanied minors into the desert in mexico. that's exactly what they're doing. when they're saying, if you're an unaccompanied minor, we'll let you come to our country. that is what sends unaccompanied minors through the desert in mexico. like, it is -- it is a cause and

effect. so after you send the message, come to america, we'll let you in illegally. and then, oh, no, we're not going to send them back. it's backwards. and the old me would say, democrats are naive about immigration, illegal immigration. but really, if you look at recent history, they're not. barack obama. barack obama caught flack because he actually enforced the southern border and we had a 50-year low in illegal border crossings across the southern border for mexicans. and yet, you know, again, i said for four years, donald trump was creating a crisis that didn't exist when barack obama left office. well, we have that crisis, and there's no way to put it, the biden administration has made it

worse and it's this simple. you either stop inviting people to this country and tell people that don't live in this country, you're welcome to come to our country, or else you're the one responsible for sending minors through a dangerous trek over hundreds or thousands of miles. >> yeah, you know, it's initially to have a -- i'm with you on this, joe. it's a tough tightrope. it's easy to see heartbreaks, you see these kids there and your stomach turns, you can't turn them back. so you're creating a roubiks cube. you can't solve the problem. and politically, he's really dancing a very, very, very dangerous dance here. and that is, biden got elected as a -- somewhat as a centrist. as a -- you know, was not that crazy left. and everything he's doing, you know, when you start to puttering together. okay, covid bill is great, but we need $1.9 trillion. could it be $1 trillion. so on and so forth. and he's setting himself up in

the midterms where this could be a real, pivotal issue. the very thing that the republicans have always said. oh, the democrats are extreme on the left and they're radical left. and immigration is the most sensitive pressure point on that left/right pendulum issue. so i'm with you on this one. it's a tough one. it's heartbreaking, but the problem just does not get solved when you have that. it's what we're about, so, you know, as a progressive guy, my heart breaks as i say it, because most of these people are fleeing such desperate situations, but yet, you can't live with open borders like this. it just doesn't work. >> it doesn't work. >> again, if your heart is breaking at those pictures, you want to make sure that your country, your administration doesn't cause that by inviting those children to come. by sending the very clear message, come up, we're going to let you in. and after you get in, and

there's reporting from the "wall street journal," after you get in, we're going to release you and even if you're with a family, we're going to release you sometimes without even giving you a court date or telling you to come back so you just go into the country. that invites people to take risks that end up causing people to lose their life. and the proper thing to do is, as donny said, you actually helped fund those countries. make sure that the situation is better where they are. so we don't have that sort of crush at the southern border. that is a smart investment. that is a wise investment. there are a lot of people on the right that will say, it's foreign aid, don't do it. well, we're all connected here, fellas. we're all connected here, women. we're all here, republicans. we've got to help people where they are. and by doing that, it's a very

small investment. and kasie hunt, obviously, you look at what's going on at the border. there are going to be a lot of people that are going to be trying to exploit this and say, see, we should have done what the trump administration did. they're going to create these false choices where the trump administration was overly cruel. of course, talk about children in cages, but doing so many other things that actually undermined american values. but is there a feeling even among democrats that the biden administration screwed this up? >> i think there's a lot of nervousness, joe. and i think the reality is that everyone knows we've needed some significant policy changes in our immigration system for a long time. and there has been in the past bipartisan support for things like the dream act, to let kids that were brought here through no fault of their own become citizens here. but while these pictures are happening, while things are unfolding like this at the border, it makes the politics of

actually doing something that will really solve the problem basically impossible. and you're already hearing that from both democrats and republicans. this is, you know, for an administration that got off to such a strong start in their view in terms of covid relief that's still shown to be extremely popular, the vaccine rollout, you know, i think a lot of people are experiencing that in their daily lives as getting better than it was a month ago, or as the trump administration was leaving office. but this threatens to undermine all of that, because it's such potent political issue. and clearly, no one wants to see children in cages. and you know, when we saw pictures during the trump administration, some of those children had been ripped from the arms of their family. i think it's important that we underscore, that is not what is happening here, but that does not make looking at these images of kids who are clearly on their own, who are living in tough conditions any harder to look at. >> yeah, it's just horrid images coming out of the trump administration. but it doesn't mean we have to

replace one crisis with another crisis. i mean. so, jonathan lemire, other than the humanitarian crisis, and it is quite a crisis down there, what are the political fears that the biden administration are grappling with right now. >> well, i think kasie touched on this. we saw the rollout and it was the vaccine distribution. this is the first thing where it's been a bit of a misstep. they were sort of caught by surprise and they weren't ready. there was not the capacity at the border needed and as discussed some of the mixed messaging. they're now fearful that suddenly this is all that people are talking about. that's why mayorkas had to go on so many sunday shows to try to push back and get questions out there. questions about the border have started dominating press

briefings at the white house and it's distracting from what this administration wants to be talking about, which is the covid relief bill, and pivoting towards the next parts of its agenda. infrastructure and jobs and voting rights, most likely. and also, as this becomes such a hot-button issue, it could, perhaps, undermine work towards in congress to sweeping immigration reform. if the republicans decided this is the issue that they're really going to make their stand. they largely didn't for the covid bill. this is the one that they feel like they can win points on. >> so how do they plan to manage this? how do they plan to manage the border crisis? what's their next step? >> we saw a little bit of it. the pr strategy started over the weekend and the president has told aides he's going to be more personally involved in the messaging and he said he would be going to the border before too long. but right now, they feel like they need to try to get this message out to these migrants to, indeed, invest in some of those countries where they're

coming from, those northern tribal countries, which so many migrants are fleeing because of gang violence and poverty and an inability to get vaccines because of covid-19. that they think that is where they want to go. but it's going to take time and they're pleading for patience at a moment when the crisis really doesn't allow for that. >> and let me just say one more time, and i'll say it slowly. if that new plan is to invite unaccompanied minors to make a dangerous trek across mexico to come to the united states, and if you say you will accept them in, whether they're citizens of this country or not. you're going to have a humanitarian crisis on your hands for the foreseeable future. >> still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump perpetuated a lie about election fraud. and even though he is no longer in office, the myth of the big steal has become a huge fund-raising issue for the right, especially major donors.

"the new york times'" jeremy peters joins us with his new reporting on that. plus, march madness gets another dose. the 101-year-old chaplain for loyola's men's team sparks another cinderella run for the ramblers. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >>hi jen! hi sabri! so this aveeno® moisturizer goes beyond just soothing sensitive skin? exactly jen! calm + restore oat gel is formulated with prebiotic oat. and strengthens skin's moisture barrier. uh! i love it! aveeno® healthy. it's our nature.™

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chasing it down. louis for the tie! the upset makers are history makers! oral roberts is in the sweet 16. >> oral roberts strikes again. the golden eagles took down seventh-seeded florida in an 81-78 victory last night. they became just the second number 15 seed in men's tournament history to advance to the sweet 16. the big dance is over for

illinois, as they are now the first top seed bounced from this year's tournament after falling to loyola yesterday. it came after a pre-game prayer that sounded more like a scouting report from the team's 101-year-old chaplain, who said in part, quote, as we play the fighting illini, we ask for special help to overcome this team and get a great win. we hope to score early and make our opponent nervous. the eighth-seeded ramblers never trailed in the 71-58 victory and march on to the next round, where they will meet oregon state after the 12th-seeded beavers pulled off another upset last night, taking down number four, oklahoma state on the heels of their first round victory over fifth-seeded tennessee. and syracuse is headed back to the sweet 16. the 11th-seeded orange advance

after toppling number three west virginia, 75-72. these are close games. the remaining 16 teams from east and west regions will tip off their second-round matchups today, including seventh-seeded oregon, which advanced after its first round matchup against number ten. vcu was declared a no contest, because multiple rams players tested positive for coronavirus, foring vcu to drop out of the tournament. oregon will face second-seeded iowa. >> jonathan, pure madness in the first round. we had all of those upsets. uva upset, ohio state upset. texas upset by abilene christian. i mean, you go on and on. i mean, this was the craziest first round i've seen. >> yeah, joe, it was a lot of

fun. i should note at the end of last week, willie geist confidently predicted that illinois would be champions. so we have the curse of geist here. and sister jean remains such a compelling story. this is the second time she has had center stage in these tournaments. but let me ask you, joe, alabama, who has not been exactly a basketball powerhouse in recent years, on the verge of the sweet 16. roll tide. how you feeling? >> well, feeling pretty good, considering the number of teams really good teams that have already been knocked out of the tournament. but this is such a strange tournament. anything can happen. i'm just excited they have a shot to get into the sweet 16. they have not had a good basketball team since i graduated from the university of alabama in 1891. i think the sport was pretty new then. but it's going to be a

fascinating tournament, pretty fascinating. but you just wonder whether covid and the stopping and the starting and the fact that these teams aren't in their regular routines and haven't been all year isn't causing some of these wild upsets. but rev, there were quite a few upsets. but again, it made for some of the most interesting basketball we've seen in the first round of march madness in some time. >> and i've not been, until now, one really following march madness, but the upsets and the fact that it has been so unpredictable has caught even people like me, giving a lot of attention to it. because you don't know where it's going to go. you don't tend to want to watch something where you feel it's a given result. and i must say that i am really rooting for the lady here beating the predictions of wall street willie geist. for willie to be beat by a

102-year-old lady is not something i'll let him live down. a 101-year-old nun, praying to jesus versus -- >> not fair. not fair. you know, to me, i'm a sports junkie. there's nothing like march madness. and what makes this tournament particularly interesting is you don't have duke, you don't have kentucky. north carolina lost in the first round. kansas is still there, but the big four that have been the bedrock of college basketball are not there. and even though gonzaga is undefeated, it is a completely open tournament. you can look at any of these teams in there, they can go the distance. and i can't remember as open a tournament. i want to give a little shout-out to the rutgers scholar heights. same close to beating houston last night and rutgers basketball is back from new jersey. >> all right. and kasie hunt, if it were football and alabama were playing michigan or lined up against a possible showdown with

michigan, i would be feeling pretty confident. not quite as confident since alabama could be going up against your michigan blue. >> i've got to say, in basketball, i got my money on the amazing blue. i don't disagree. i have to tell you, this is the first time in my entire life i was ever sad to see ohio state lose, because naturally, normally, i will admit, i do brackets with my feelings, so i take them off the field right away. and this time, i said to myself, let's see if i can actually do this, big ten's had a great run. i'll let them win in the first round and naturally they lost and busted my bracket to pieces. so thanks again for nothing, buckeyes. appreciate it. >> okay. >> it's kind of like in 2001, after 9/11, i actually cheered for the yankees for the first time ever, for the first and only time ever.

of course they lost. of course they lost. >> okay. in a stark contrast to the men, the ncaa women's tournament is moving along as predicted. the closest contest came as fifth-seeded georgia tech needed overtime to avoid an upset against number 12. steven f. austin rallying from a 17-point halftime deficit to escape with a 54-52 victory. meanwhile, ncaa women's basketball players are celebrating an upgraded weight room after complaints that their facilities were inferior to men's, echoed through social media. last week, images circulated of the women's weight room, which consisted of one small rack of dumbbells compared to the men's gym space of benches, racks, and barbell weights. the organization first responded that there wasn't enough space for the women to house the equipment that the men were provided.

the university of oregon posted a video on social media showing that there did, indeed, seem to be more than enough space. >> that's just unbelievable. >> why do you -- >> just unbelievable. >> following a second apology -- >> by the way, that looks like your weight room. >> it is. not really. following a second apology admitting that the organization fell short, the ncaa upgraded the women's weight room over the weekend, providing them with sufficient weights and other exercise equipment. i have to ask the question, though, why do you need to lie? why do you need to say there's not enough room when there's enough room? that's showing who they are. so, hmm. coming up, how restricting voting rights has become the heart of the republican party's strategy to keep donors engaged. "morning joe" will be right back. donors engaged. "morning joe" will be right back welcome to this family meeting. i'm here because you guys need

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the right to vote, that should bring us together as well, but it now divides us. this is a democracy. the right to vote is fundamental. the battle for the right to vote is never, ever over. and it's not over here in this state of georgia. so we're in a fight again. it's fight we need to win. because if anyone ever doubted that voting matters, georgia just proved it did. >> that was president biden speaking in atlanta on friday on the new effort underway to restrict early and minority voting. joining us now, "new york times" political reporter, jeremy peters, who's out with a new piece on the wave of voting restrictions coming out of gop legislatures and the money being raised from that effort. it's entitled, in restricting early votinging, the right sees a new center of gravity. let's talk about that center to have gravity.

what is it? who's with it, jeremy? and also, your article has elicited a response from trump, a very incorrect, lie-filled response. >> the significance of this effort, mika, is that it involves a lot of the groups that power the get out the vote machinery of the republican party. and these are conservative organizations that have deep ties to evangelical groups, to anti-abortion groups, and also include major political players like the heritage foundation. so it really expanse the entire spectrum of the conservative movement. and i think that this initially surprised a lot of the folks involved, because they're not organizations that have typically run campaigns about voting and restricting election law. so this is kind of new territory for them. but the president has -- or the former president has kind of forced this on them.

and his perpetuation of this lie about voter fraud and stolen votes and votes that switched from trump to biden really got in the heads of his voters and the party's major donors who do for the most part believe that their election was stolen, because that's what their former president told them. so when the leaders of various conservative organizations started going around to donors over the last election and saying, all right, here's our plan for 2022, what they found was that a lot of these donors said, no, i'm not going to give you any money. why should i give you money if the democrats are just going to rig this process again? and so they were really left with no other choice but to at least as far as they see it, no choice but to basically continue with this myth of a stolen election. otherwise, the gop cash spigot was going to be shut off. >> kasie hunt? >> jeremy, sort of just play

contrarian here a little bit. one thing we've started to hear from some republicans who saw what happened in 2020, who were surprised by the gains that republicans made in the house and who saw that there were some working class, working class latino voters who came over and supported president trump, i feel like i've heard some questions about, yes, obviously, there's a deep and long history of this being aimed at restricting minority votes, but could republicans get themselves into kind of an unexpected territory here by supporting some of these laws? i mean, if you listen to some of the people like marco rubio, for example, they're looking at that map and saying, we have to be the party of working class americans, regardless of color. it seems like these laws could actually not necessarily do exactly what these groups are assuming that they will. >> right, kasie, that's a really, really good point and one that i heard a lot of republicans make as i reported

this story. of course, none of them really would go on the record and say that, because it cuts against former president trump if and that's the one thing that they are still loathe to be seen as, as somehow insufficiently behind president trump, you know, no matter how preposterous what he's saying is. so you're right. these voting restrictions disproportionately impact black and latino people. and what you see is republicans who are looking at the gains that they made with those voters in congressional districts across the country, from florida to texas to new york. and they're saying, okay, this is incredibly short-sighted. because, you know, what we're doing here is we're not giving people a reason to vote for us as a party. we're not giving you ideas or a platform to like us as republicans. what they're doing is basically saying, we lost the last time because the other side cheated.

>> donny deutsch? >> jeremy, my question picks up where you just start to go. and kasie's point about them not extending the tent. the simple fact that the democrats on one hand are pushing this $1.9 trillion bill that helps with insurance, that helps with health care, that helps with school, that helps with child care. every kitchen table issue that you could want. are there people within the party just going, are we crazy this is going to be our centerpiece issue? voter suppression has nothing to do with an end benefit to a voter. there's got to be symptom minds in the party that are raising their hands and starting to ring the alarm bells. >> yeah, that's exactly right, donny. and that gets to the point that kasie was making earlier about some of these republicans, like rubio in florida, to a certain extent, josh hawley before the events of january 6th kind of consumed his career. they were looking at a more, i guess you could call it, working

class, friend lip agenda. i mean, remember in florida, trump won florida by a pretty comfortable margin, at least by florida standards. but the state overwhelmingly approved a minimum wage increase there. so i think some alarm bells went off and republicans said, you know, our traditional economic agenda of cutting taxes and regulations really is falling flat. it doesn't work anymore. we've done this for 35 years, let's try something a little different. and to hell with the focus on deficit spending. that's gone out the window for the most part, as we've seen. so there's a recognition, i think that, yes, they need to give voters policy ideas that they can get behind, that are new. that republicans haven't traditionally been comfortable with. but instead, they're going around, complaining that the last election was rigged. and i just -- the number of people who recognized that this is wrong, that what they're

selling voters is not true, but are doing it because they feel powerless, because they feel like their voters will abandon them if they don't, was really, really striking. >> jeremy peters, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. and donny deutsch, thank you, as well. and still ahead on "morning joe," a major success story in closing the racial gap when it comes to the covid vaccine. we'll check in with chicago mayor lori lightfoot one year into the pandemic. "morning joe" is coming right back. he pandemic. "morning joe" is coming right back

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wake up your children. >> come on. >> alert the authorities.

we have analyst -- >> it's not good. >> roger bennett. >> just ew. >> i don't get it. kasie hunt, this is far from a princess diana. >> she's wearing the black sheep sweater now, roger. >> america -- >> i brought the british today. >> i wanted to wear a garment that would meet with your approval. >> it's creepy. it's satin or something. >> it's kind of satin. i don't think we wear things like that in tuscaloosa. >> starter jackets are as american as democracy, barbecue and freedom. that's the best i've got. you want something truly american? >> let's talk about football. >> off camera, she's mad for

this. she and everybody else knows the real march madness occurred yesterday. a london darby bubbles. arsenal, west ham charging to a lead. a powerful shot referred to by all as a wolf blitzer. that ball flies state into the situation room. first luck, created hope, thumping the ball in off the defender. scoop, there it is. then west ham's defense resembled miami beach before curfew, chaos everywhere. west ham, oh.

it's 3-3. the properly way do that. >> poor west ham. they needed that win. let's talk about the fa cup. >> the national knockout tournament in which every club across the nation competes. >> you know, worse than ron desantis. >> they made the semifinal for

the first time since 1982. a miracle. finally, in another quarterfinal, everton hosted manchester city. david versus goliath. city won with ease. look at this finish. that redhead is incredible. that hurt. >> we got in ron desantis. kasie hunt, we have the princess diana black sheep sweater as well. what else do we need in. >> not much. >> i never really know what goes on during this loss of precious air time.

>> next time, kasie will host the segment. >> i love all sports. i know nothing about soccer. >> me, too. >> we will tune in to "men in blazers." roger, thank you. >> roll tide. >> love is the answer. as one of the top republican senators continues to downplay the severity of the attack on the capitol, the federal prosecutor who led the criminal investigation into the riots says evidence most likely supports charges of sedition. we will play some of that evidence straight ahead on "morning joe." we're back in two minutes. excuse me? my sub has bacon. choose better be better and now save when you order in the app. subway eat fresh. but not jayson's sub.

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oh... what? i'm an emu! no, buddy! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, march 22nd. with us, we have white house reporter jonathan lemire, president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton, staff writer at "the atlantic" and author of the book "twilight of democrac," ann applebaum and ed luce. the evidence supports charges of

sedition. in an interview, michael sherr sherwin was asked why more people weren't being charged with sedition and whether prosecutors are looking into former president trump's role in the riot. >> it seems like a very low bar. i wonder why you are not charging that now. >> i don't think it's a low bar. i will tell you this, i personally believe the evidence is trending towards that and probably meets those elements. >> do you anticipate sedition charges? >> i believe the facts do support those charges. and i think that as we go forward, more facts will support that. >> has the role of former president trump been part of your investigation? >> we have soccer moms from ohio saying, i did this because my president said i had to take back our house.

that moves the needle towards that direction. maybe the president is culpable for those actions. you see in the public record, militia members saying, we did this because trump just talks a big game. he is just all talk. we did what he wouldn't do. >> in short, you have investigators looking into the president's role? >> we have people looking at everything. >> he has resumed his position as federal prosecutor in miami. "the new york times" yesterday released a report using d.c. police radio communications synchronized with footage at the screen showing the real-time struggle of officers trying to protect the capitol on january 6th. >> we're not here for you. we are here for america. >> the capitol police force request backup. the radio communications are from the reinforcements. officers from d.c.'s police

force were called in to help the capitol police. >> mount up. >> cruiser 50 is the call sign for the leader of the response. inspector robert glover who specializes in crowd control and high-stakes confrontations. over the next 76 minutes, the radio communications synchronized with footage from the screen analyzed by "the new york times" reveal the gauntlet glover and his team face trying to hold the line at the capitol. >> multiple capitol injuries. >> it has been five minutes since glover's team arrived. already, he is calling in officer injuries. he hears from other police on the radio who warn the situation is about to get even worse. >> be advised. >> now that president trump left the stage at the other end of

the national mall, crowds of people are streaming toward the capitol. >> get a group of 50 charging up the hill on the left front. >> glover is asking for the munitions unit. >> cruiser 50, up here now. >> injuries are mounting. >> multiple law enforcement injuries. get up here. >> police escalate their response and start using more crowd control weapons. >> they are shooting into their own people. we represent blue lives. this is what they do to us. >> move back. >> hold the line. >> let's bring in "new york times" reporter and national security analyst michael schmidt who contributed to this. what officers were going

through, mike, as you pieced this together, what did you learn? >> i think the most important thing about hold the line, about what it was like to be on the front lines of this fight, is the sustained nature of this. most interactions, most violent interactions that officers have happen pretty quickly. they happen over a matter of seconds. sometimes they happen over a matter of minutes. sometimes there's an extended version of that. officers rarely confront hand to hand combat like soldiers over hours and hours. the fact that these officers were thrust into this situation is just such an unusual challenge to them. it's so different than anything they have had to experience before. in that trauma, the fact that it

went on so long is one of the reasons that you have had so many injuries, why you had so many severe injuries, things that we usually do not see officers having to experience in normal day to day american policing. to be able to see through the eyes of these officers that were there, trying to hold the line and what happens when the line is breached and they have to retreat and certainly, obviously, this knocks out any of the conspiracy notions that have been pushed about the fact that these trump supporters were not violent and such. these ridiculous claims. unfortunately, we live in the society where showing this video is just so important to the facts of what went on. >> the timing of not only this report being released by "the

new york times" but also the "60 minutes" interview lines up, unfortunately, all too well with your piece in "the atlantic." the science of making americans hurt their own country. this isn't something that just happened in the week leading up to january 6th. there was propaganda coming in from russia, coming in from across the world trying to divide americans, trying to -- again, for those talking russian hoax, i remember listening to general mike haden in 2017 talking about how it was clear that russians were trying to divide us along lines to create exactly this type of incident, this type of response to something that in the past would have been debated on television or in letters to the editor. >> i wrote that piece in response to an intelligence

analysis published a few days ago about the 2020 election showing the way in which -- most of which we saw play out in real-time, in which russian intelligence officers gave rudy giuliani information that he passed on to far right media and fox in order to discredit joe biden and his family. you are right that the science of how to divide americans is something that outsiders have studied for a long time. how to feed conspiracy theories, how to create anger. i think the capitol riot is unfortunately the illustration of how well domestic media has internalized those same methods. the creation of alternative worlds in which people live. most of the people you saw at the capitol live in an alternative world in which they believe trump won the election.

they don't see other news. they disregard other news. russian tactics are internalized by americans and used that way. you have outside forces and internal forces cooperating together in a number of different ways. >> internalized by people like ron johnson who keeps playing down the severity of the january 6th attacks on the capitol. last week he said he was never threatened. would have been more concerned if the marchers were from black lives matter. at a local political event over the weekend, he made another false claim, lying to the crowd saying, there was much more violence on the house side. there was no violence in the senate side in terms of the chamber. here is a photo of a man dress

dressed in combat gear with zip ties. a report with more on the threat to the senate specifically. >> lawmakers in the house and senate chambers are meeting to satisfy electoral votes for president-elect joe biden. outside, a man uses a shield to smash a window. he was seen earlier with members of the proud boys, a far right group with a history of violence. a group from the crowd enters the capitol, a floor below where the senate is in session. a minute later, at 2:13, pence is offered off the senate floor to a nearby office. charles grassley begins presiding. almost immediately calls a recess. >> stand in recess until the call of the chair. >> at that moment, one floor below the senate chamber, rioters enter and begin pursuing

a lone capitol police officer, eugene goodman, up a staircase to the second floor. they are nearing the chamber that's filled with lawmakers. the rioters at one point pass within 100 feet of where pence is huddled with his family. goodman leads them away from an entrance to the chamber and toward a line of police. >> tricked them. >> you have a united states senator falsely telling supporters that there wasn't much violence on the senate side in terms of the chamber. ron johnson spreading disinformation it seems almost

every day. again, this is not a new phenomenon. there was another wisconsin senator who did the same thing back in the 1950s. certainly, he seems to be taking his cues from a lot of disinformation coming from other sources. >> look, i mean, what we saw at the capitol was not republicans versus democrats. it wasn't partisanship in the way we are used to thinking of it. it wasn't a right/left battle. it was a group of people who were against the system itself. they were trying to prevent congress from recognizing and naming the next president. they were actually an anti-democratic group. in order to sustain their new ideology, as i said, they live in an alternate reality. one of the most dangerous things that's happening now is that there are people who are elected, who are in power, people who know better, who

continue to sustain this group because they see that it might have partisan political advantage. if they keep that group going, keep them energized, they think they can use that to win elections. that's very scary. it's one of the first times in recent american history that we have had american politicians seeking to energize anti-democratic or anti-american -- groups of people against our elections and against our political system as a political tool. >> still ahead, three months, 1 million vaccine doses, the city of chicago is working hard to protect its people. whose at the front of the line? mayor lori lightfoot joins the conversation straight ahead on "morning joe." please hold. bike sales are booming. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. the moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a shortlist of quality candidates

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♪♪

jonathan lemire, i know it sounds bizarre. bizarre to people like ann and myself who grew up either in families filled with warriors or who actually worked to help in small or large ways during the cold war. you have actually got republicans, these anti-democratic forces that ann is talking about. you could go through it chapter and verse over the past several years about how we talk about russian disinformation. you actually have people on the far right who are actually supportive of vladimir putin. i mean, there are polls you can google right now that show how vladimir putin's approval rating shot up in the republican party

when donald trump was president. but you can also see during ukraine, russia skirmishes, right wing commentators cheering against ukraine, cheering for russia. you see other people this past week actually, bizarrely, cheering for a putin/biden debate. >> come on. >> bizarrely, saying that biden would be wiped out by putin. many of them are now puffing up vladimir putin in the same way that they puffed up donald trump. it is bizarre. i would love to get your input and your insight on it. >> yeah, joe, it's extraordinary. for some years now, putin had

really gained popularity among the fringes of the right. the hypermasculinity and whiteness and strength, the image he likes to portray. what happened during the trump administration is that crossed over into somewhat more mainstream republican views. not all, of course. but some on the right. sided with putin and suggested he was one to be emulated. trump himself fawned over the russian president time after time. we know how deferential he was on matters of election interference. even though trump is now off the stage and no longer president, this hasn't gone away. you are right, what we have seen the last few days, after joe biden called vladimir putin a killer, which was a shocking moment of diplomacy, if you will, but one that's accurate. we know putin, the way the russians have poisoned dissidents in their own country. the kremlin hit back.

putin challenged biden to a debate. we have seen this where some on the right, including hosts on fox news, seem to be cheaten putin on or suggesting biden was a coward for not taking him up on this, which is an extraordinary thing. we are now seeing republican senators like ron johnson spout disinformation with trump's twitter account offline, johnson seems to be the go-to source of the sheer nonsense, baseless accusations and assertions about january 6th, a moment that now as a final note perhaps again carries legal danger for the president. the focus of late for donald trump was new york and his business interests, maybe georgia. listening to the interview last night, perhaps the former president has legal concerns out of washington, too. coming up -- >> i get a sense sometimes now among certain young people -- this is accelerated by social media. there is this sense sometimes of the way of me making change is to be as judgmental as possible

about other people. and that's enough. if i tweet or hash tag about how you didn't do something right or use wrong verb, then i can sit back and feel good about myself. you see how woke i was? i called you out. >> we are tackling a big subject in our last hour. activism, social media and the term we heard by now, cancel culture. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." hey, dad! hey, son! no dad, it's a video call. you got to move the phone in front of you

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welcome back to "morning joe." live look at wrigley field in chicago. good morning, everybody. the cdc revised its guidance on physical distancing requirements in schools after new data shows a shorter distance is just as effective in stopping the spread of covid-19 with universal mask wearing. the regulations shortened the distance from six feet to three feet as long as all children

wear masks. six feet still needs to be maintained for children when masks will not be worn such as during lunchtime. the new guidelines make it easier for school districts to reopen. now to the city of chicago, which has administered more than 1 million coronavirus vaccine doses. recent data shows that 55% went to black or latin-x community members. chicago residents won't be included when illinois opens vaccine eligibility to anyone age 16 and older next month. the city receives its vaccine supply from the federal government allocated separately from the state. joining us now is the mayor of chicago, lori lightfoot. reverent al sharpton with us as well. mayor, great to have you back on the show. how would you assess how chicago is doing in terms of getting the vaccine out? what's the mountain left to climb? >> the biggest mountain left to

climb is making sure that we get enough vaccine to really meet the need. unlike when vaccine first came to chicago and across the country back in december where there was significant hesitancy, we are now seeing huge demand for vaccine. people have been watching their family and neighbor and friends get the vaccine. as a consequence, people are now recognizing that, in fact, it is safe and want to get this life saving vaccine themselves. the biggest issue we face is supply. as you premiered, we are making great progress. over a million doses out in the last few weeks, 50% of our supply has gone to black and latin-x chicago. we are making tremendous progress. >> we bumped in with a shot of wrigley field. i'm curious, it's symbolic for the opening of chicago this spring. i'm curious, what are the plans

for places like wrigley field? how do you expect the rollout to look over the next three to six months as chicago reopens? >> look, for wrigley field, if you are asking will fans be in the stands on opening day, the answer is yes. we announced that a week or so ago to the delight of many, the same with where the white sox play. we are looking at indoor fans enjoying the black hawks and bulls and the chicago fire is going to have fans in the stands. we feel cautiously optimistic that the spring and summer are going to look more like 2019 than 2020. but we still have a long way to go. i would be remiss if i didn't say, we have to wear masks. we have to social distance. because the virus is still real

and still deadly, every single day, chicagoans are dying from covid-19. less now than before. but this virus is still deadly. >> yeah. just doesn't seem to have the same ring. it is what it is. we got reverend al with us. >> madam mayor, the absolute progress that you have made in chicago is because you have been intentional. i think it has been a model for other cities. the over 50% of black and latin-x and i happen to know from my own research that you used a lot of the churches, which something new york state is going to announce today. tell us about how others can look at the chicago model that has made an incident, despite a lot of hesitancy. what are the things you saw that worked, and what should they intentionally try do in their

particular city? >> you said the word, be intentional. we put equity at the front and center of our vaccine distribution efforts. we were extraordinarily intentional about building awe -- authentic relationships and using the faith community, community-based organizations, pumping a lot of vaccine into our federally qualified health care centers that are the backbone of the community health care system. we have been intentional. we check our metrics. we develop specific programming for driving vaccine into areas of the city. we developed a covid vulnerability index. we used that to guide our vaccine metrics and distribution efforts. this doesn't happen by coincidence or chance. you have to be incredibly intentional. that's what we have done here in

chicago. >> we will be watching, chicago mayor lori lightfoot, best of luck to you. thank you very much. has america forgotten how to forgive? we are going to dig into the issue of cancel culture and what's missing. a path to redemption. that conversation is next on "morning joe."

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cancel culture is real. it's insane. it's growing exponentially. it's coming to a neighborhood near you. if you think it's just for celebrities, no. in an era where everyone is online, everyone is a public figure. is this really who we want to become? a society of phony clinched [ bleep ] avatars walking on eggshells, looking over your shoulder about getting ratted out for something that actually has nothing do with your character or morals? think about everything you have ever texted, e-mailed, searched for, tweeted, blogged or said in

passing, or now even, just witnessed. someone had a confederate flag in their dorm room in 1990 and you didn't do anything. 80% of americans, young, old, rich, poor, conservative, liberal, white, minority, all hate the current atmosphere of hypersensitivity. everybody hates it and no one stands up to it. because it's always the safe thing to swallow what you really think and just join the mob. >> that's a common refrain, the notion that wokeness has run amok. political correctness has metastasized. social justice warriors are out for blood. cancel cuture is a real problem facing this country. last week, a woman lost her new job. the former reporter was tapped

to lead "teen vogue" until offensive tweets resurfaced that she had written ten years ago as a 17-year-old. they knew about them. she had repeatedly apologized while acknowledging the hurt she caused. a few more recent examples. there was controversy at "the bachelor" after the host defended a contestant when photos emerged showing her at a plantation-themed party as a college student. a musician stepped aside from the band after the backlash he received from praising a conservative provocateur. people who used to represent the epitome of social progress now in some cases don't cut it in an environment where political correctness has morphed into cancel culture. one poll found 64% of americans think it's a growing threat to our freedom. including majorities of blacks and hispanics.

it's likely one of the big reasons why the country elected this man. >> i think the big problem this country has is being politically correct. i have been challenged by so many people, and i don't frankly have time for total political correctness. to be honest with you, this country doesn't have time either. this political correctness is just absolutely killing us as a country. you can't say anything. anything you say today, they will find a reason why it's not good. i can be the most politically correct person with you. i could say something at the end of this interview, you would say, wow, was that boring. here is the problem with political correctness. it takes too long. we don't have time. >> that resonated. we are not talking about cancel culture as an excuse for republicans to cry victimhood. we are not talking about decisions by a private estate not to publish a few books.

we are not talking about corporations changing the words on a product's packaging. we are talking about the notion that graham wood writes about. he writes in part, a world in which a woman apologizes for her old tweets is better than one in which she sees nothing wrong with them, possibly worse than the latter though is one in which the highest aspiration of racial pride is to slam the doors of repentance permanently in the faces of your enemies. in many religious traditions, it's an earthly process. you can confess your sins to a priest or wander earth in ashes for the sake of today's "teen vogue" readers, i hope by the time they are her age, the culture has developed its own

process. most people were 17 once. those who haven't gotten there yet will be 17 some day and 27, too. for more on this, let's bring in a professor, opinion columnist for "usa today," kurt bardella and kat rutkowski who comes to this from a unique perspective. we will explain in just a moment. reverend al is still with us. >> i want to read something else that graham wrote. a magazine aimed at teens should strain to acknowledge what every adult knows, the point of being a teenager is to make and correct the most mortifying errors in your life. my god, we say all the time, if twitter had been around when we

were teenagers -- >> yeah. >> you would know who we were. maybe you like it better that way. it seems to me, kurt, with alexi, i really -- i don't -- it's hard for a lot of people to understand what happened last week. i wanted to bring you on. you spoke out so forcefully, so passionately about discrimination against asian-americans last week, and you have for some time. you move our viewers. my gosh, the response is always overwhelming. i wanted to bring you on and ask you what you thought about alexi losing her job last week over a teenage tweet. >> three tweets. >> i thought, joe, it was a remarkable act of cowardice to do what they did to her. i know her.

she's someone that i am proud to call a friend, someone who i think of actually as being very tolerant and who has shown in her life that you can, as all of us have done, myself included, said or done something insensitive as a teenager a decade ago, have that come out, accept responsibility for it and show by action, show by character, show by the time of person she has grown to become that you can change, that you can become more inclusive, become more aware, become an advocate for the progress we want to have. if we are going to live in society where someone can't be given the opportunity and the room to go through that growth experience, then i don't know what the hell we are doing up here. we spend a lot of time, rightfully so, calling out hypocrisy, talking about how words can lead to harm, talking about how the climate that has been fostered primarily by the

republican party has resulted in people like me having a target on our back. there is such a far departure from where that conversation begins and what is actually happening with alexi. completely different. not even in the same solar system. for the asian-american community particularly, which this was somewhat about, in my opinion, it is a massive loss for us to lose someone who would have unquestionably been a stronged a -- advocate for our community, more so than who will get that job. that's what we should be striving for. people to get positions of power and have positions of editorial opportunity to be aware of these issues, to be mindful, to embrace diversity, to want to lead the conversation about tolerance through their own personal experience. let's not forget about the fact that she's a woman of color, for crying out loud. these are exactly the people we

have been talking about needing to elevate in our society and our ecosystem and for reasons that are beyond me, it was taken from her. it's wrong. >> everything you said about her, along with the mistake that became public and going through that experience, makes her perfect for a job that involves communicating effectively to teenagers in this incredible day and age that we live in with social media. i want to bring kat to the forefront here. kat wrote a piece that really shows it's a story of what we should be doing and what we need to have happen more. it's her story. i don't know how you can encapsulate it. but you reached out to the person who bullied you. the result was exactly what we are looking for. >> yeah.

it's not something i think about all the time. the violence last week reminded me, sort of had me sleepless. i woke up thinking about someone who had been persistently unkind to me when i was 13, 14. he was 13, 14. something around there. i decided to open facebook messenger after 20 years and say, hi, do you remember me? do you remember being unkind to me? i didn't say, you are a terrible person who ruined my life. i said, do you remember being unkind to me? he said, honestly, i don't. but i know that i was a bad kid. i was really hurting back then. i am so sorry. this is something that i would take back a million times. we ended up talking for half an hour. we want to introduce our kids to one another. there is a way forward. grace is possible. it's critical in these small and

awkward moments if we actually want to make the kind of progress that i do. >> she thought about reaching out because she wondered does have kids, how is he talking to his kids about these issues? the response she got was full throated and robust. she made the space for that. there's no space for anybody to ever make a mistake, cancelling people permanently. this is what we're going to do? >> the thing is, it actually -- the snowball is rolling faster and faster down the hill now. when you have a woman who is actually -- who loses her job because of tweets that she sent out as a teenager. that shows you that this is not getting better. i make the mistake of thinking, okay, we're moving past the madness. no. it's actually just getting worse

by the day. eddie, you tweeted something on saturday morning. it touched a lot of people, almost 20,000 likes. it's a quote from james baldwin, a man that you have studied and written about and know well. i with like us to do something unprecedented. to create ourselves without finding it necessary to create an enemy. we need a lot more of that. we need a lot more grace. we need to give people space when they mess up, when they make a mistake, whatever area it is. if they are sorry for that mistake and they ask for forgiveness to whomever they offended and seek redemption, well, are we not a better society if we do that instead of

trying to define ourselves by the enemies we make? >> i think so in so many ways. that particular quotation comes from a letter of resignation that jimmy baldwin wrote from a black power periodical. baldwin resigned by saying, we can't become the monsters that we are fighting against. let's be clear, forgiveness doesn't mean the denial of consequences. whether jesus said, let him without sin cast the first stone, that's not a sense in which because everyone is sinful that no one is held accountable for their sins. that's not the point. the point is that we have to hold off a kind of overheated virtue that leads to these judgments that cast people into hell forever. i was horrified the fact that alexi was -- these tweets from when she was 17 haunted her in

this way. i'm also really mindful that we are in this moment of transition where we are trying to figure out how to be together differently. i'm thinking about the young folk who are in that newsroom at "teen vogue," what they for, i' thinking about, does it mean even though she apologizes, does she need to lead in this moment? do we have to figure out the context, the means by which we earn a different kind of togetherness, close to the ground, where forgiveness becomes the space for us, to imagine living together differently, not just a blank state to move forward? part of the work we have to do in my view is not to do what bill maher has made a living do, to say cancel culture, joe, is the result of the left. we see it with liz cheney and with the right all the time. part of what we have to do is figure out what jimmy said, how do we imagine selves without the need for enemies?

that to me is the pathway to the new jerusalem, it seems to me. >> reverend al, i'm curious your thoughts on what unfolded last week, this culture that we're living in right now where somebody can be fired because of tweets they sent out as a teenager? >> i think we have to have the culture of accountability. people have to be accountability for what they say but you have to do it to raise people, not to bring them down or condemn them. all of us have said things, i've said things i've had to apologize for, and as a public figure, but they will always try to use that in a cancel way. you said this about whites or days. i used the n-word a lot and i was wrong about all of it. coretta king scott used to say,

you have to watch your language and grow along with that. and i thought about our clubhouse conversation, it brought me also to make you a better person if you forgive. january 12, 1991, i was leading a march in bensonhurst, brooklyn, against a white person. a white man ran out of the crowd and stabbed me. it was a real test to me. when the man was arrested and went to court, i went to the courthouse and forgave him. the judge gave him years in jail anyway. i visited him in jail. i told the man, i didn't come to you. he said, i don't understand how you could forgive me, i almost took you from your daughters. i said, i had to come for me, i couldn't preach forgiveness if i don't practice exhibitness and that's what kat did. we have to deal withholding people accountable about the not try to destroy people because you end up destroying yourself. i would never have ended up to

keep going in civil rights if i was caught in the moment this guy tried to kill me, people are bad. i was able to live so i could also forgive and forgiveness is part of growing and that's where we've got to bring this country. yes, be accountable but, yes, move on and grow. >> rev, you're a perfect example, you brought it up, saying past things, i said things in the past that i feel terrible about, i have done things in the past i feel terrible about. same with you. and every time we have you on the show, it seems somebody loves to tweet that your anti-semitic because of things that were said decades ago and yet after pittsburgh, after whatever anti-semitic attack there is in america, i know if i turn on your show, you're talking to the head of the anti-defamation league. you're exposing anti-semitism.

you talk about it all the time. here's a great example of you being able to still talk and use your platform speaking out aggressively now against anti-semitism. >> and you must connect the sin or the mistake with the behavior. you can't judge say i've grown, you have to demonstrate that, you have to take risks, you have to know the crowd that used to cheer you may jeer you. that's when you grow, when you don't worry about the consequences, you grow despite the fact it's going to make other people uncomfortable. >> so what do we do next? what is the way forward, kurt? what is the way forward not just with alexi but people like alexi? how do we start learning to forgive better? >> i think nothing is more powerful than taking someone who

may have transgressed at some point and turning them into an advocate, turning them into a testimonial. i think a lot about a conversation that's been happening in my other world of country music recently. there's a great artest names luke combs who has done amazing, amazing successes. i think willie geist did a story on him not long ago. with all of the success he had, a backdrop of him and a confederate flag was in the backdrop. instead of offending or hating him, they explored it, why it offends him, why it offends people of color and he has since become a very staunch advocate and talking about this. when we talk about symbols and what necessity mean and racism in america, i can't think a better person to communicate

that that to hit audience then someone like luke combs. this is what we need more of in this country, people who need to take a interspeculative look of things they thought or said or biases they have had in the past are confronted with what they mean today, in today's context, and are willing to do the self-examination, willing to admit they are wrong, are willing to admit they may have gotten it wrong and did not mean harm and are willing to take the actions and definitive steps forward to correct it and to advocate. that's what we need more of. >> and eddie glaude, i talked with you about this before, i grew up in meridian, mississippi and suburbs of atlanta, georgia, tuscaloosa, alabama, pensacola, florida, there are confederate flags everywhere, confederate flags above the schools i went to. pensacola, city of five flags, confederate flag flew there. we thought nothing of

confederate flags. if you had a british flag, american flag, confederate flag up and you didn't think anything of it if you were from the south or too many people like myself didn't think anything about it, obviously, over time, you understand and actually having that blind spot makes you actually more sensitive to making sure that you don't have blind spots in other parts of your life moving forward. isn't that what we want, whether it's alexi, or whether it's me, whether it's rev, whether it's you, whether it's anybody. >> absolutely. you know, what -- the short hand for what kurt just described i call earned togetherness, close to the ground, joe. we have to do the work together to move us to the place we want to be. we're at an amazing moment of transition in this country, trying to figure out who we are

together, and that's going to involve moments of overreach, moments of failure. we're going to fall flat on our faces. but if we're going to become a new country, a different america in light of who we actually are on the ground, we have to earn this sense of togetherness close to the ground. that's going to require forgiveness, it's going to require accountability, it's going to require this hard work. what i hope alexi will do, what i know she will do, continue to be the reporter she is and in some ways be an example of exactly what we're talking about, this earned togetherness close to the ground as a different way to move forward being together as americans. >> eddie, she will be but this is what needs to change because she's actually doing everything that needs to be done again and again and again and again. companies need to change. companies need to be able to admit when something is wrong. teen "vogue" needs to turn it around. we need an environment where

when someone has done something wrong, that they can apologize. i many times on this show, we've stumbled, and i can tell you, i had a big stumble and i was apologizing a lot. i couldn't believe how many people didn't know my heart all of a sudden, didn't feel they could speak out, and that is an environment where you can stand up for someone like -- i will stand up for alexi. she shouldn't have been fired, hands down. i'm not afraid to stay it. is anyone else? and kat, i wonder what you hope people will learn, what you learned through your personal experience that they can take away from this conversation? >> i think there are so many people who are fixated on their anger, and it may be righteous anger. that's not enough. moving forward, moving through it, there's so many people who confess to me their previous transgressions. like there's a hunger for grace

and grace and accountability as you have all said live happily together if we can get there. >> eddie glaude, kurt bar della, cat rakowski and reverend sharpton, thank you all. >> wonderful note. >> amen, amen to cat. amen to cat. >> that's right. cat, great job, thank you so much! you can find her piece at knowyourvolume.com i'm proud to say. that does it for us this morning. geoff bennett picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks, mika. i'm geoff bennett in for my friend stephanie ruhle. it's monday, march 22, and here's what's happening. could there soon be a fourth covid vaccine in the united states? a new study showed a vaccine developed by astrazeneca and university of oxford is nearly 80% effective against illness but 100% effective against hospital decision and death with no serious side effects. astrazeneca could apply for fda