otezla. show more of you. you know when your dog is itching for a treat. itching for an outing... or itching for some cuddle time. but you may not know when he's itching for help... licking for help... or rubbing for help. if your dog does these frequently. they may be signs of an allergic skin condition that needs treatment. don't wait. talk to your veterinarian and learn more at itchingforhelp.com. welcome back. we begin now our second hour of breaking news coverage under the banner of this evening's 11th broadcast because we are

following the tragedy in boulder, colorado. earlier in evening in a police briefing now two hours ago, there was much consternation on the news media because the police forth and prosecutors were less than forthcoming about what we knew what was a large death toll. they said they had to complete their investigation, and the dicey business of notification of the next of kin. in the second briefing, worst fears were confirmed. indeed, the death toll inside that one big box grocery store in boulder, colorado, is ten. that includes a 11-year veteran of boulder police force whose

death was confirm the tonight, officer eric talley has been lost in this. you see the pictures of the robust police response. all we know the gunman wounded in this is alive and in custody. the same cannot be said for the ten souls lost in this attack inside this grocery store. nbc news' gaudy schwartz has been updating us. let's go to more. >> reporter: you were talking about reporters pressing for more information from police, and unable to provide some of the specifics as to what happened. a lot of the consternation came because much of the active shooting was broadcast live on youtube.

was a youtuber who happened to be going to the supermarket, and there were tens of thousands of people watching adds the scene unfolded. him right there at the entry way of the king's soopers as we realized. we're not going to show the video. it's disturbing to see, but i will walk you through some of what he described to viewers and you saw on the live stream. body after body after body. there was a body in the parking lot that was face down. there was a body in the entry way of the king soopers, and there was a body right inside, and there was a look of confusion from the people around. he started yelling at people to get back. there was an active shooter, and there was a security guard in the entry way who seemed to be making a phone call and he told the live streamer something along the lines of, the active shooter is inside. you start to hear gunshots from

inside the store. methodical. he hears one, two shots. and he takes cover in a parking lot and you hear, boom, boom, more shots coming from inside the king soopers and you start to see the police response. we know that one of the first officers on the scene, the first officer to rush inside was killed in the line of duty. that is eric talley, the 51-year-old officer of boulder, colorado. and officers were confused as to how many shooters there were. there was false information there was multiple shooters. you have officers surrounding cars and saying, do not move, we can see you in your car, and unsure if there was a body in the car, if it was a victim or a

pile of clothes. so much confusion in the first hour of the live stream that we you a playing out, and you saw the heroics of the officers, those going inside the entry way, and cutting their way through that celling to make entry in the second story. the second floor of that building, and some people have been hit, and what we do not know is what happened between officers and the gunman inside. we do know there was a man taken out in cuffs. he was not wearing pants. hech was not wearing a shirt and he was bleeding in the leg. the officers have not said conclusively this was the man who was the gunman. but he was led away in cuffs. and the only person injured and taken to the hospital is the gunman. a little bit of a process of e

elimination. the short man in handcuffs without a shirt and pants was the shooters. however, they are saying the soul suspect, the lone gunman is in custody. and ten people dead. one officer, whose end of watch is tonight as he was the first person to go in that building and try to confront that gunman. >> gadi schwartz, thank you thar that update. to the points, there are photos and videos on social media that are aerial views of the procession of police cars. not just boulder pd but others in the community. and you splay seen the one suspect led away by two members

of law enforcement. he is a white male, as gadi put it, without pants. one leg, notably bleeding. he is limping from his injuries. all we know police said they have the suspect in custody. he was wounded. but they have not connected the aerial photos we saw of the suspect in police custody with being positive live i.d.'d as the gunman in this story. i want to bring in a witness of so much of what unfolded in boulder, and that's anna hanes. she is editor in chief of the cu independent. let's not forget boulder is a college town. the university of colorado boulder campus. pick up the story where you first realized something was wrong. where were you physically in relation to the big box supermarket? >> hi, yeah, thank you for

having me. we live -- i live in an apartment directly across. and out of the front window, we can see the entire front of the store. i heard gunshots. i don't realize they were gunshots. they didn't sound like gunshots. they sounded like fireworks. may have been a car engine failing but the sound of the shots kept going. so i looked outside my window and the fist thing i saw was a man laying in the middle of the marking lot. i later learned that he had been dead. i saw the shooter himself. he had -- it looked like an assault rifle. he was firing very rapidly at one particular place, right outside of the building while standing on the handicap rails

to the entrance of the building. he was shooting sort of over his shoulder after one spot. i think he was shooting a person and he turned around and ran inside the building and after that, i saw people fleeing the building. i heard screams. people leaving in their cars, et cetera. >> so this is -- useful. and to our viewers, this is a witness we're talking to. this is not an official police briefing but we are also allowed to broadcast what people saw and heard during this. the big question option, the aerial photos we have seen of the man in his shorts with a bleeding right leg being led in custody. does he match the description of the guy you saw out the window that you are identifying as the gunman? >> other than not being clothed, the gunman that i saw was fully clothed. i believe he had a heavier

jacket on. but he was stalky, heavy set. he looked white. everything other than the clothing matched. >> and this also matches information we got earlier that sadly some of the fatalities may have happened outside the market. and with our law enforcement experts, we have been discussing the incredible damage the first responding officer and officers faced. you roll up on a situation where all you know is you're responding to a report of shots fired in an open carry state where it's not unusual to see guns in public. >> yeah, i mean, it's -- it was so shocking to us just because boulder is generally regarded as

a safe place, and a safe area of boulder. a quiet area. i had never seen so many people in this area in my life, let alone something as awful as this, to happen in an area we thought was almost immune to something like this. >> anna hanes, you're supposed to live your whole life in america and never see anything this gruesome out your window where you live. and after the day and night you had, thank you so much for making time to take our questions tonight. we're going to learn more in the next 24 hours. but i appreciate it, and our condolences to the entire community. carmen best is with us, former police chief, and law enforcement analyst. chief, let's talk about the dynamic i just mentioned.

public parking lot, teeming, it's a grocery store. importantly, snow's coming. so you get people who decide they need a case of water or a bag of salt or they are picking up prescriptions. let's not forget the pharmacy was also giving out coronavirus vaccinations today. you're the responding officer, reports of shots fired. you swing your cruiser in the parking lot. you may or may not have a long gun to watch the fire power of the suspect who you then learn is apparently shooting people outside. that is -- that is a hell of an environment for a first responder to drive into. >> yeah, brian, good evening and thank you for having me. you certainly describe it well. it would be a very difficult circumstance. but unfortunately, and sadly, and tragically, we find ourselves in a situation that occurred way too many times in

our country, in colorado. and between columbine and aurora, really significant mass shootings. and officers will be prepared for this occurrence to happen. they are thinking about life safety, and stop the threat. there will be information as you know, quite confusing on these types of calls, where there is one shooter, and at least one person shooting, and victims that would be -- should have been just a routine day at a shopping center. but unfortunately, it was not. we know how tragically, it has ended with a number of people dead, including one of our officers. >> of course, you come from a city and department that was

engulfed in a debate over civil liberties, the right to protest. how much is too police power push back. the next guest after you made this point in the next hour, if you're going to argue defund the police, which the political guests have called maybe the most toxic phrase ever announced. but if you're going to argue that, that means you can't have the robust response we saw today. we will never know if that response kept a death toll from going to 20 from 10. we do know the fact that that suspect is in custody tonight and was walked out of this is thanks to a robust police response, correct? >> that is correct. and certainly, you can say we don't know, but i think it's a fair assumption that without the number of resources that we had

available, they had vailable to respond. it outcome could have been much worse. as tragic as it is, and how sad we are, certainly, they wouldn't have had the number of officers responding. you saw the response from multiple agencies, local and federal. and many more people could have been hurt and that is a fair assumption for us to make at this point. >> finally, the patrol officers and the people who love them. the husbands and wives and children at home. the job of a responding officer is more dangerous when the call is for an active shooter. we have been discussing after events like columbine, when we figure out, if you are going to get to at scene and wait for s.w.a.t. and wait for tactical backups, people are going to die

in the interim because of an active shooter, so pressure on the first responding officers to do the best they can to go -- run right at danger. and try to put down the situation. it's been a real change in their job description and it's been the cause of worry for all their loved ones. >> that is absolutely right. since columbine, and the training to get to a sack tif shooter or shooters in a facility, there is a need for officers to -- to stop a thread. that said, there is training that goes with that, picking a lead officer, getting description. you can't go in there without any information to try to get

the high ground, to determine where the shots are coming from, to take cover, all those things are occurring as well. so there is training that goes along with this, but it's inherently dangerous and risky, but that is what needs to happen to save lives. >> it is on the worst days it is a grizzly business. on the best days, it's rewarding and terrific for the officers. was not a good day in boulder, colorado. our thanks to former chief carmen best of seattle p.d. thank you for taking our questions tonight. more of our special broadcast of this tragedy in boulder, colorado, right after this break. boulder, colorado, right after this break scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! you're good. in the romo household we take things to the max oh yeah! honey, you still in bed?

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this was the procession tonight in boulder. not just boulder pd, but boulder fire department, surrounding cities, counties, unincluding the feds. among police officers, it is called the job. and you hear that all the time in conversation. how long you have been on the job. when did you come on the job? you have a brother on the job? where? that is what you hear. it's a tight community. it has gotten tighter with the negative attention for police departments around the country.

on the right, a mib of the boulder pd they lost today, officer eric talley, a 11-year-old veteran of the department. there is nothing like losing a member, a brother or sister officer, and tonight, boulder colorado's pd is going through that. so it was knowing that in the end of an emotional day on a cold night in boulder, colorado where they are preparing for a snowfall, that the police chief stepped to the mike and talked to the news media. here are some quotes from maris herold. >> i want to say, the horrific incident. we are know of ten fatalities at the scene including one of our boulder pd officers by the name

of eric talley who has been on the boulder police department since 2010. he served in numerous roles supporting the boulder police department and the community of boulder. and i have to tell you, the heroic action of this officer when he responded to this scene, at 14:30 hours, the boulder police department began receiving phone calls of shots fired in the area, and a phone call of a possible person with a patrol rifle. officer talley responded to the scene, the first on the scene, and she was fatally shot. i want to commend those from boulder pd and across the county and other parts of this region.

police officers' actions were not short of heroic. i want to thank the men and women who responsibilitied. local and state and federal authorities. this is a complex situation that will take no less than five days to complete. and again, my heart goes tout the victims of this incident. and i'm grateful for the police officers that responded. and i am so sorry about the loss of officer talley. and again, we will be here working night and day. we have one suspect in custody. i want to reassure the community they are safe, and that we will try to did our best over the next four hours to identify the victims and we will work with

the coroner's office. i know there are people out there waiting for an answer and we will work around the clock to get this accomplished. >> her name is maris herold. she is chief of the boulder police department, and you heard her say, they are mourning the loss of a fellow officer tonight. our special coverage of the boulder, colorado, shooting continues after this break. aftek than the leading allergy spray at hour one. [ deep inhale ] claritin-d. get more airflow.

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we are back covering this tragedy out of boulder, colorado, tonight, correspondent gadi schwartz has learned more on the police officer, the 11-year veteran of the force, the first officer to pull up on the supermarket parking lot. gadi? >> reporter: we are hearing heart breaking details on who the officer was. we just got a statement from his father who tells us where his head was before all of this happened. so the father of eric talley is

saying, he took his job as a police officer very seriously. he had seven children. the youngest child was 7 years old. he lived his children and family more than anything. he joined the force when he was 40 years old. he was looking for a job to keep himself off the front lines and was learning to be a drone operator. he didn't want to put his family through something like this, and he believed in jesus christ. that statement from the father of the officer killed, giving you a little reference what is going through the officer's mind, as he responded to the call. a family man, seven kids, and telling his family, he wanted to be a drone operator so he wasn't on the front lines and something like this couldn't happen. this is one story, out of ten stories tonight. the officer honored as a hero,

the first officer to respond to that scene, and many other officers arriving on scene and able to pull people out of there, and pull people to safety and confront the gunman and take him to safety. again, officer talley, remembered as a family man, with seven kids, the youngest 7 years old. >> gadi schwartz, thank you for the details. knowing what we know about human nature, we can guess some of the sadness we saw at the briefing, is fellow officers knowing exactly how many family members he left behind. we are joined now with a person who witnessed what happened inside the food store. ryan is with us. you had just run in to buy something and pick up the story when you first noticed something was wrong? >> i was about five feet into an

aisle. heard one loud bang. thought something dropped. and another bang, and saw somebody running towards me with a terrified look on their face, and more bangs and i started running with everybody else, and ran out the back. just -- i told other people, fastest fire drill in my life. just making sure nobody got left behind that was with us. we ran out through the cargo receiving area, and underneath a truck and over a hill. and i immediately called 911 at this point. which -- you know, could have been 60 seconds. it took us time to get that distance or less. >> so two minutes on either side of that, you might have been exiting your car. you might have been going in through the front door. we now learn the shooting apparently starts outside and

then continues inside. think of all the random acts. if no one had opened the rear door, identified the exit for scared civilians, you could have been trapped inside this structure where you are hearing shots ring out. it's incredible. thp is starting, i'm guessing, as an average monday afternoon. >> yeah, something like that. i mean, you say, you know, the random choice events. you know, for me, it actually came down to whether or not to get a pint of ben and jerry's. i was literally thinking about going to the other end of the store to the frozen food section to grab ice cream. decided not to. and turned the other direction

and, you know, a moment later, shots rang out. so had i decided to get ben and jerry's ice cream today, i might have been in a -- i might not be talking to you. >> incredible. absolutely incredible. it's those microchoices that you kind of halfway think about. you showed better part of strength most of us would like have before giving in the pleasures of cherry garcia. i wish i was strong as you. it turned out to be a life saving choice for you. we are incredibly some of the sadness your community has satisfy suffered today. we are incredibly glad to hear your voice on the phone. our special coverage of the shooting continues right after the break. the break.

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or rubbing for help. if your dog does these frequently. they may be signs of an allergic skin condition that needs treatment. don't wait. talk to your veterinarian and learn more at itchingforhelp.com. we're back and we want to welcome back our two law enforcement analysts as we continue our rolling live

coverage of this tragedy out of boulder, colorado. frank, former sfib and assistant for counterintelligence. and jim cavanaugh, law enforcement analyst for the network. and atf agent in charge. jim, at top of the broadcast tonight, the changing nature of crime and criminals. this is a ubiquitous name in law enforcement, edp, emotionally disturbed person. i'm going to say this was an edp. no one sane shoots all grocery store. and it's very difficult to top a motivated, determined edp with a

weapon. is our society producing more emotional disturbed people for whatever reason? >> i think we are this year for sure. the country is stressed and it's true we are. but we do actually stop a lot of people. all the agencies, city, county, state and federal do wind up stopping a lot of people. we leverage good people to stop them. they are not big news, and you know, when we go out and arrest conflicted felon with a violent shi history with a stash of guns, we say, that's the next murder and we stop it. so it's been interrupted many, many times. so we are doing a lot. but we are not doing what we should be doing. we will see gun legislation that

will move practical things there. . but just this thought there. america is tied together in a mosaic you can't separate one thing for the other. the insurrection after the capitol, some of the folks are the most vehement folks about gun control. i worked an it my whole life. anti-government militia men, neonazis, kkk style people. frank knows what i'm talking about. the fbi was not the middle of it too. these guys are so violent, and the fbi has done a great job rounding up these people. i'm surprised we haven't seen a barricade with one of the fbi s.w.a.t. seems, or a fugitive agent. we may still get there, but these guys showed up there, think about it, with no guns.

rarely are you going get a stack of oath keepers that don't have guns. why didn't they bring their guns? they are ill league in washington. they're illegal. all those guys are big gun owners, possessors, and sigh vent criminals and only a few arrested with bombs. of all the people, most don't bring guns. why? they carried an alest in gun laws in d.c. and can you just imagine if that crowd was there with military style rifles, what our brave capitol police would have had to do that day? we just had two miami agents, when a child predator shot through the wall, and a boulder

police is faced with a rifle. and i think congress needs to look hard at them, a police/combat weapons. look at it as a new angle, you need to come at it a whole new way, a whole new idea, and the most effectively thing they in in the assault weapons ban in the '90s was the magazine capacity. you need to specifically identify what you want to do. there's not going to be any mass confiscation of guns. it's not going to happen. nobody's proposing it but we need stricter control so people are not slaughters people at the market, and slaughtering people when they get upset.

so we can do a lot better. >> frank, i'm coming to you after a quick commercial break. coming off jim's comments. our live coverage will continue. . ♪♪ turn today's dreams into tomorrow's trips... with millions of flexible booking options. all in one place. expedia. (vo) last year subaru and our retailers donated 50 million meals to feeding america. and yet, one in four children may still face hunger. so, subaru and our retailers are doing it again, donating an additional 100 million meals to help those in need. love. it's never been needed more than right now. subaru. more than a car company. (vo 2) to join us with a donation, go to subaru.com.

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welcome to this family meeting. i'm here because you guys need together time... at universallllll. that's how you let yourself woah! save 40% on hotel and ticket packages right now. not later, like right now. as we were pulling up to the parking lot of king soopers, we saw a body laying on the ground

first down, and people sprinting away from the store. first, we heard just a pop pop, and i heard -- i told my roommate, it sounds like gunshots. you hear loud sounds all the time. so we still just went to king soopers and as we were pulling up, we heard more, and we saw a body and knew it was gunshots and we had to get out of there. >> think of it. one kid who needed something at the grocery store. one witness among all the people who saw what would end up being the worst sight of their lives today. still with us, our friends frank and jim. frank, i promised i would come to you. jim made such a good point about calling them the 1-6 types. everyone knows what they are talking about. the reason they were not armed that day is because of gun laws in the district of columbia,

though we saw sporadic reports there were guns across the river in virginia, guns available to them. we will wait until the final examination. but frank, you know the case. if cabela's makes it, they wear it. and here's the problem. in open carry states, they have seen them too. they look like they are going to topple fal fallujah and they ar going to the the store. and the late officer, indeed the first responding officer, pulls in a parking lot, not the only one carrying a weapon, not presenting with a long gun. does it not get confusing for law enforcement? >> it can indeed.

and i think it's a reflection of how deeply polarized we are as a society, and how passionate people are on both sides of the issue. and i wish we could find a middle ground. we can't have this discussion without me already hearing the voices saying, okay, you know, good guy with a gun could have put an end to this. or, you know, police officers don't mind if good guys have weapons with them. so the argument will continue on here. we heard this all before. but yes, indeed, it's true that if we had fewer guns on the street, fewer bad guys would get them. my counterparts in the uk, they have a bad day when there's a stabbing. i traveled there one time, and the headline news for the week was an increased number of knife crimes and i said to myself, i wish, i wish i would go back

home and the headline is an increase in knife crimes. we are a violent society, and it's written into who we are, and we need to learn to manage it with ensuring the police department. the red flag laws have proven very, very effective in dealing with family members and co-workers and they say, i am very concerned my associate is going to act out. let's remove weapons until we figure out this. if there is one message, don't be the one who says after an incident this like, i knew something was wrong. i thought something might happen. now is the time to get professional assistance for that

person. report it. don't be the one who regrets it after an incident like this. >> and frank, the quote good guy with the gun, good person with the gun argument is potent. and a lot of serious people repeat that argument. if memory serves, i think gabby giffords, the gunman in that case was taken down by a citizen in the safeway parking not sue son. it includes and it's not limited to a bunch of off duty and retired law enforcement who carry a weapon, and that puts good men and women in the field too as another set of eyes and ears. correct? >> it does, and for example, federal agents who are retired like myself are authorized to continue to carry. the thought is you are trained. you know how to react. and we want you being about to

do that continuing on to retirement. so there's argument on both sides. but there is, i believe, a middle ground, which is to say, number one, we must strictly enforce existing laws right now, and i fear we are not doing that, and agencies like jims, the aft, need to be fully staffed and resourced and we need to close the private sale loophole. we may find out the defendant is lawfully in possession of his weapon. but could somebody intervene? we need to move on -- the fbi will be looking and supporting and monitoring to see if there is a terrorist angle? is he a member of a group of concern? they will look at that. so the work now just begins. the crime scene will be pain

staking and med thodiccally processed and they will have a computer system down to who was in what aisle. they will find surveillance video and cctv coverage, and cell phone testing. the end result will be a remarkable thing but it will never bring back the ten people who lost their lives today. >> indeed. gentlemen, we go way back. sadly, we have most of these discussions after bad news. frank, jim, thank you for being of counsel to the viewers tonight. and viewers, a grandfather you splay seen on cable television tonight. had kids inside the store. listen to his story as he described it to local news tonight. >> my two granddaughters, 13 and

14, basically, came in with their dad to get a covid shot. they came in through the east door, where the pharmacy is, and that is where it started. he saw and it got the girls down. they ran and hid upstairs. in a coat closet for an hour. in the coats. and then they were communicating with my daughter through his phone. texting, and the cops came in through the roof protecting them. they're out now, out the back, they got out, and -- you know, this is going to be pretty hard for them to live with, i think. >> when you hear from them, what is going through your mind when you hear something like that? >> well, what is more precious? and then i get really angry. and i i feel like what is -- you know, every city is susceptible,

but there is a way i think, well, this isn't going to happen in boulder. and now, we know better. >> those emotions sound familiar, probably the gamut of there's the denver post cover for tomorrow morning. a nightmare. it's indeed what they've gone through. our special coverage continues, top of the hour. we're continuing to follow that breaking news in boulder, colorado, involving multiple victims. the press just held a press conference where they did not confirm how many were killed, but they did confirm a boulder police officer was killed along with, quote, multiple victims. that was the phrase they used. they said a person of interest who was injured is in custody, but he is not a suspect. and joining us now for the latest is nbc's gadi schwartz who has been covering the story all day.