you can't plan for your period's... what the gush moments. but the right pad can. only always ultra thins have rapiddry technology and, they absorb 40% faster. the gush happens fast. that's why always absorbs faster. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. bombshell reporting in "the new york times" on the favor that only a president can give. requested by one of the most prom innocent and devoted members of trump world, congressman gaetz. "the times" reporting as president trump's term in office drawing to a close gaetz asked the white house for blanket pardons for himself and unidentified congressal allies for any crimes they may have committed according to two people told of the discussions.

mr. gaetz did not tell white house aides he was under invest for potential sex trafficking violations making the request but top white house lawyers and officials viewed the request for a pardon as a nonstarter that would set a bad precedent for the people said. nbc news has not independently confirmed this reporting. a spokesman for gaetz denied requesting a pardon. and in a statement former president trump said gaetz never asked him for a pardon. "the times" reporting adding important context to a time when gaetz loudly calling for the president to hand out get out of jail free cards to anyone and everyone. here he is on fox news back in november. >> president trump should pardon michael flynn, the thanksgiving turkey, everyone from himself to his administration officials to joe exotic if he has to because you see from the radical left a blood lust that will only be

quenched if they come after the peel that animated the trump administration with the vigor that delivered for the american people. >> "the new york times" reports in recent days some trump associates speculated that the request for a group pardon was an attempt to camouflage the potential criminal exposure. it is not clear what they knew about the federal investigation at the time gaetz reportedly asked for a pardon but we know that a close ally of gaetz florida republican and seminole county tax collector joel greenberg is hit with an array of charges including sex trafficking and financially supporting women in exchange for sex. at least one of whom was underage in august. as for the ties between greenberg and gaetz this is what was reported last week. investigators believe greenberg met the women through websites that connect people in exchange

for gift and allowances. mr. greenberg introduced the women to mr. gaetz and who also had sex with them. gaetz denied all allegations. that's where we begin this hour. michael schmidt is here and former u.s. george joyce vance and of serve america movement former congressman david jolly with us. all three of course are msnbc contributors and fortunate at that. michael, this story is fascinating with due respect to matt gaetz and what he said in november. presidents have already pardoned the thanksgiving turkeys. having said that asking for a blanket pardon for yourself and other people, how unusual is that? >> yeah. so to give this context, president trump gave out a lot of pardons that legal experts

thought pushed the bounds and were given to allies and to donors and to people who wouldn't cooperate with investigations into the president. what gaetz was asking for was like even bigger and more significant than that. it was like a pardon on steroids. it was essentially a get out of jail free card for everything he had done in his life up until that point. one if you had criminal exposure you would want that because the government's investigating you who knows what they will find but to get that blanket pardon he did not have to disclose what he was pardoned for and simply clearing you for anything you had ever done and i think gaetz wanted to portray himself as sort of like, look, we had done this great work for the president and might be targeted afterwards and need protection.

as you point out and describing the story trump confidants look back and they say, hmm. you know? what was really going on here? but it's important because at the time that he was asking for this the federal investigation into him was really narrowing into his conduct. they were beginning to do interviews, the fbi, taking overt actions that gaetz could have known about. >> do we know the likelihood that he knew what was going on? how unclear is it about what he knew or if he knew about the inquiry, mike? >> as we point out in the story we don't know what he knew at the time. what we do know is that as far back as last august, joel greenberg, the tax collector, had been indicted on sex trafficking charges of an underaged girl. that was widely reported in the

press in florida. gaetz had close ties to greenberg and it's hard to believe that gaetz didn't know that he was indicted on this charge. would that have told gaetz everything he needed to know about the federal invest? no. but it would have told him that this person who he spent a lot of time with had been charged on sex trafficking, with a slew of other crimes and the government had massive leverage over him and doesn't take a legal expert to put the pieces together there to realize what may have been going on. >> yeah. let's go to the legal expert. joyce vance, i wonder what you make of this when michael so correctly points out there were a lot of pardons that were given in those waning days of the trump administration that people thought pushed the bounds but to ask for a blanket pardon like this, what does that tell you? >> well, it certainly is an

interesting strategy. you know, the one thing about someone who's under investigation by doj, they may not know the contours of the investigation involves but they do know what their conduct included so someone in gaetz's position would know what he could do and presumably has the capability to figure out what among the conduct is a crime and may have prompted the request for the wide ranging sort of a pardon but i question if it's as effective as gaetz thought it would be because as a prosecutor with a pardon i would have put him on the witness stand to testify against greenberg and let him try to assert a privilege for state prosecutions or force him to the dilemma of telling the truth, acknowledging

the conduct with the 17-year-old woman, or facing future perjury charge. the wrongdoing would always catch up with him here. >> there is a long history of matt gaetz defending this president, david. i'll look at a couple headlines that have shown exactly what i'm talking about here. representative matt gaetz threatens michael cohen on twitter in advance of testimony. house republicans stormed a closed door impeachment hearing and trump approved of it. gaetz draws boos. is this him being just so confident of what he was owed by this president? >> i think it is. arrogance. perhaps as a more appropriate word than confidence. look. this is the way that trump administration and the trump organization for years has performed and has run.

it takes care of its own and in ways that often cross legal boundaries. what i'm struck by is matt's response throughout this process and i say this somewhat dispassionately and in ways as a compliment to matt's compliments. he is a skilled debater, a word smith. very tactical in the words he chooses but legal commentators and lawyers will pick up on the disconnect between matt's response and the request. the charge for which joel greenberg is indicted, when matt said he never traveled with a 17-year-old across state lines that doesn't mean he didn't support the travel of a 17-year-old across state lines so in response to the reporting when matt gaetz said today he never talked to donald trump

about a pardon that doesn't mean as michael reported that gaetz didn't talk to the white house or white house staff or gaetz had somebody speak to white house staff on his part. matt has a long history in florida politics and now national politics but he's very skilled at the language he uses and if you look at what he says in response to each one of the charges they fail to refute the facts that are being presented. >> so what is the state of the investigation here now? what do we know about it, michael? obviously the probe into greenberg seemed to lead to gaetz but obviously gaetz is the bigger fish now. >> yeah. the government has immense leverage on greenberg. he sits in jail for violating parole, his bail. and the government has charged him with nearly three dozen charges. he faces a mandatory minimum of 12 years in prison.

on these charges. and look. he is someone that does not have the national profile of someone like gaetz. but was deeply immeshed in florida politics and now is indicted on corruption charges, identity theft charges, on the sex trafficking charges. the array of things here. there will be a status hearing in his case on thursday this week. and he's scheduled to go to trial in may or june. i think june of this year. as we have seen in federal investigations and the way that the justice department works, they try and move up the ladder in these things and it's probably still fairly early in the investigation. >> politico has an article, joyce vance, called the congressman and his wing man. it said the gaetz/greenberg

relationship wasn't equal according to friends saying the tax collector looked up to the senator. gaetz was a regular fixture on fox with the president's ear. he was a wing man to some acquaintances and promoted him as a potential congressional candidate. now suspect greenberg is cooperating to build a case against gaetz. and i know that you have looked at this and you think that this relationship could be important, this big fish versus little fish. why? >> it could be. jurors don't love it when prosecutors put on someone who's perceived as a bigger fish in the criminal conduct to testify against a little fish. juries really hate it when the

big fish gets a good deal and the little fish is clearly on trial and been a question of the relationship between gaetz and greenberg. this new reporting in politico seems to clarify that greenberg was always looking up to gaetz, bringing stuff to gaetz and gaetz was more of an actor here. that plus gaetsz's status as a congressman, someone with the ear of the former president may be enough to make it possible for prosecutors to put on greenberg at trial as a testimonial witness coop ratting against gaetz if they need him to establish, say, a charges of the minor or other sex trafficking charges. >> he's not hiding as you pointed out, david jolly. matt gaetz seems to like getting into these kind of frays but not sure doj is somebody he wants to get into a fray with but he is speaking to a conservative women's group at trump's golf course in florida later this

week and getting out there and in front of things. david jolly, he thinks he can survive. what do you think? >> yeah. i think the operative word is arrogance. the fact to speak to a conservative group today says as much about the conservative movement today as it does about matt gaetz. i've said for a week now the best thing gaetz can do is shut up, hire a lawyer and resign and don't attend these gatherings and try to recover in conservative circles because if the charges are true and if the charges are true about joel greenberg there's an underaged child victim in this case. it is causing a minor to engage in a commercial sex act. this is not something that matt gaetz should be flaunting. this is serious, grave and ripping a page out of the trump play book. first response is head fake. i will ask you to look over.

accuse me of something else, i parse the response and doesn't directly address the accusation trying to get beyond the scandal. if there is no indictment of matt gaetz he might survive and will have an opponent in the re-election campaign in which -- in a strong republican kongs at district in the panhandle of florida because those candidates back home are already swirling and looking to run against gaetz in a primary or run for congress should he not make it through this term. >> there's a couple things here. one is that we haven't heard a full throated support of matt gaetz from donald trump and it was donald trump that sowed the seeds of distrust in the media saying maybe my supporters at home, the larger group of conservative reporters won't believe it anyway. >> yeah. the interesting thing about the

people around the president, the allies is that they often try and respond in ways that trump would have. they try to use the trump play book. a reason that donald trump was so successful when he was in officer and ran into trouble is that he was president. he had an enormous mega phone. he could appoint the attorney general. the attorney general reported to him. and that gave him power. he could shield information and documents that went to investigators, to congress and such. largely because of that donald trump was sort of able to go into a lot of scandals and come of them with significant political consequences but not real legal consequences. the thing is that those around the president try and act like the president because they see how successful he has been and i don't think there's a great track record of that working for

the people around the president. we don't have to go through the list of trump allies and associates indicted and gone to prison since the beginning of the campaign. whether it was the folks on the campaign that got into trouble, the folks in the white house, michael cohen. you know? if you are standing around donald trump you are a target in the sense that your conduct will be scrutinized and just sort of a fact of what's gone on over five years. >> michael, great reporting as always in "the new york times." thank you for starting off today. joyce and david are staying with us. the murder trial of derek chauvin, the prosecution arguing the use of force of the former police officer beyond reasonable and ultimately deadly. a live report outside the courthouse with a look at today's testimony. we'll turn back to politics, how and why are republicans turning vaccines into their next big fight?

when we're all looking to open back up and keep each other healthy. plus, three months from the deadly insurrection on capitol hill, there are some conservatives ready to rewrite just what happened that day. we all watched it. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after this. l interests. and winning. but now, the for the people act stands on the brink of becoming law. ensuring accurate elections. iron-clad ethics rules to crack down on political self-dealing. a ban on dark money. and finally reducing corporate money in our politics. to restore our faith in government. because it's time. for the people to win.

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expert witnesses continued today in the trial of derek chauvin. . lapd sergeant stiger returned to the stand testifying that no force should have been used on george floyd on that fateful day because he posed to risk to

police after being handcuffed and on the ground and that force that was used by chauvin he testified was a risk known to police officers. >> the time of the restraint period he was not resisting in the prone position. he was handcuffed. he was not attempting to evade. he was not attempting to resist. and the pressure that he was -- that was being caused by the body weight could cause positional asphyxia which could cause death. >> is that a known risk in law enforcement? >> yes, it is. >> how long have the dangers of positional asphyxia been known? >> at least 20 years. >> that testimony from jody steiger is important for the prosecution that argued that asphyxia is what killed george floyd. chauvin's defense team meanwhile in what could be the most

extensive cross-examination seemed to hone in on the crowd surrounding the scene arguing that chauvin saw the bystanders as a possible threat but steiger testified that the crowd was not a threat. >> could you define hostile crowd in that context? >> i would define hostile crowd in the situations i had been in where the crowd or members were threatening and or throwing bottles and rocks at us. at the police. >> have you had that experience? >> no, sir. >> did you see anybody throw rocks or bottles? >> no. >> did you see anyone physically attack the officers? >> no, i did not. >> did you haesh foul language or name calling? >> name calling and foul language but that was about the most of it. >> did that factor into your analysis? >> no. >> why not? >> because i did not perceive

them as being a threat. >> why is that? >> because they were merely filming and they were most of it was their concern for mr. floyd. >> let's bring in correspondent shaquelle brewster live in minneapolis as he's been throughout. joyce vance is back with us. bring us up to speed, will you, shaq? where are we now? >> reporter: i tell you right now we are hearing from the investigators, from the state's bureau of criminal apprehension and secured the evidence, protected it. talking about the chain of custody right now, the last two we expect for today. at least based on the timing when court usually breaks for the day. but you mentioned that testimony that we heard from the sergeant from the los angeles police department. he's one of the expert witnesses here, refused use of force and reviewed the body camera video

here and heard the key part that the prosecution wanted to get out of him believing that the force was excessive and said that the force was not objectively reasonable. that was what the prosecution was really trying to get out of his testimony but in the cross-examination it was fairly extensive trying to bring up the points of the past, going through meticulously in that cross-examination including this one moment to share for you. let's play it and then talk about it on the backside. >> do you participate -- [ inaudible ] >> you hear what he said? >> no. i couldn't make it out. >> does it sound like he says i ate too many drugs. listen again. >> reporter: you heard that moment. eric nelson through a question

suggesting that george floyd said i ate too many drugs and an investigator testified right after and agreed with eric nelson after playing that video saying it does sound like george floyd said that but then the prosecution did something unusual. they recalled that witness and gave him more time to look at the tape and what the officer said to george floyd right before that video and you actually had a rare correction. you heard that officer or investigator say instead that george floyd said, quote, i ain't do no drugs. that's a significant difference. but that goes to the idea of the strategy that you are seeing here where the defense is focused on the drugs in george floyd's system. we expect that to only increase as we hear from the medical examiner later this week but for the prosecution their focus on the moments where george floyd under the knee of ex-officer

derek chauvin and what they want the jury to focus on and that goes to the idea that we are hearing a lot about the use of force and the minneapolis police department's training and practices. chris? >> thanks so much for that. joyce, obviously from the beginning it is clear the two areas to focus on for the defense. one is cause of death and drug use and the crowd. start with what shaq was talking about and the whole idea that whatever george floyd said or whatever the interpretation of that is, what did you hear today that to you was significant that is going to be critical as the jury looking at this case overall? >> so today was an important day. the excessive force witness gives the opinion that shaq explained saying that what officer chauvin did constituted excessive force and one

suspects, we can't see the jury. we don't know how they react but given the powerful emotional testimony that they heard, that very likely con foirms the conclusion that they have reached on their own and i expect they paid attention. this is important because the prosecution will have to prove state of mind. they'll have to prove for the murder three charge that chauvin was acting with what's called in minnesota a depraved mind, he was just exceptionally reckless about taking a human life. so showing that he was not acting within police regulations, that this was objectively an excessive use of force is evidence that the prosecution will be able to argue very powerfully in the closing argument. there's two decision makers here. the judge will decide the law and instruct the jush and tell them that determining the facts, determines what happened is up to them.

they will apply the law to those facts as they determine them to be. but ultimately the jury is going to have to decide what and what caused george floyd's death. and what sort of a state of mind chauvin had during this 9:29 interval. today's testimony very important for that first determination and we are now leading into that second part of the prosecution's case on causation. >> before we go to the causation because we all know that's critical and potentially riveting, let me ask you about the prosecution decision to bring so witnesses to the stand. police officers talking about use of force, whether or not it was necessary. the agreement that it was not. that it was too much. having said that, what do you make of the criticism when we saw jurors potentially nodding off yesterday, seeming not

paying attention after there was so much emotion in those opening days that they didn't need quite so many witnesses or i guess the alternative argument is when have you ever seen some police officers take the stand against another of their former colleagues? >> so two very different questions and i'll answer the second one first. i have never had a case, an excessive force case or a civil rights case where the police chief took the stand in the prosecution's case in chief. it is unusual, says a lot about this department. we heard from the senior-most official in the department or the longest serving police officer in the department testifying that he, too, believed that the force was unnecessary. so there's that piece. jurors' reactions are something else. we all take in information in very different ways. sometimes jurors that you think aren't paying attention will

prove to have been listening very carefully. occasionally you do have a juror nod off and sometimes if you have a juror who's sleeping throughout the trial the judge might remove them and replace them but especially because we can't see how this jury is acting over long stretches of time i wouldn't be too concerned yet hearing that jurors aren't focusing in on each witness in a rapt fashion. testimony goes on for a long time and sometimes attention wanders and then it goes right back to the witness in the key moments. >> as a reporter who's been covering those trials, will affirm to you that sometimes attention does wander here and there. joyce vance, always great to have you on. shaq brewster, a great reporting. we appreciate you continuing to be there for us. when we come back, should showing proof that you have been vaccinated be required when getting on a plane or going to a ball game?

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with covid infection rates rising across the u.s. schools and private companies are deciding whether they should require proof of vaccination to help students and customers feel safer and help us reach herd immunity. they're dubbed vaccine passports which conservative politicians turned into a cultural flashpoint as "the new york

times" puts it. the gop's latest pandemic divide comes after months of sitting on the sidelines with addressing vaccine hesitancy. some still refusing to get vaccinated themselves. which "the washington post" reports today still includes at least four gop senators. including indiana's whom "the post" said declined to disclose vaccine status and scolded those keeping tabs on those who have or not received a vaccine through passports or lists. joining our course, eugene daniels and errin haynes and former congressman david jolly is back. look. people have pointed out this isn't something new and required vaccinations many times to go to school. there are times the army can require vaccines and republicans want you to show an i.d. before

you can vote. so why are they bringing this up this way now? >> yeah. it is good to be with you. let me encourage you all to follow the health care reporter at the 19 because she is helping me to kind of start to wrap my head an around the irs. thinking about this issue, the idea of -- right? like in the absence of a national plan which is par for the course with this pandemic, this is largely going to be left up to the states to decide. but to the point you were making, chris, we already -- schools already require vaccinations before you are allowed to go to a lot of colleges. there are certainly private businesses that have certain requirements for entry. no shoes, no shirt, no service. they can say no vaccines and

seeing states weigh in on this. again especially in the absence of a national plan but only 19% of americans vaccinated and takes between 70% and 85% of americans to be vaccinated so i think the idea of vaccine passports, whether that is voluntary or federal government, jen psaki said vaccine passports is not something the administration is interested in enforcing. masks are not mandated at the federal level but in some states and so i think this is definitely the latest kind of step in this pandemic as we look ahead to recovery and reopening where there is division and again just an area of potential discord on a local level in particular and obviously also

partisan level. >> yeah. eugene, there are companies already looking at digital ways to help folks. help themselves, right? walmart is helping folks that get vaccinated there to track this. airlines like cafe pacific, delta with covid free flights and see it as a business move. people flying internationally might be comfortable if everybody on board is tested for covid or vaccinated. new york state with the pass. what's the concern of doing it? how much of this is about privacy and how much it is about politics? >> a lot of this feels like politics. right? this isn't coming from just like errin said from the administration, this idea of people having to show that they've been vaccinated with any

vaccine in any state. that's not something that the administration is going to push. this is businesses. the market. deciding that that's something they want and interesting over the last couple of weeks is that republicans are finding themselves in positions where they instead of democrats are arguing with big business, small businesses about how they want to operate. especially coming to maskings, to these vaccines and people getting vaccinated or prove that they have been vaccinated. and when you talk to especially local shop owners their concern is that they don't have all of the means to protect the people that work at the organizations, at their companies, did businesses from covid-19. right? we have all seen the videos for a year of people arguing that they don't have to wear a mask. this is america. they don't have to do that. but health experts say they put the people working there in harm's way. we are on the rise in many of

the states with covid despite the fact of all these -- more vaccines becoming available. i think the fight is just goetding started. this is largely about politics, staying out of personal lives but same time we know that there are still ways, people are spreading this without masks, without being vaccinated and this is about safety for these buses and i don't think they're going to -- doesn't seem they'll back down and no shirt, no shoes, no service, no vaccine. that would be their right. republicans in the old days would have agreed with that. >> 19 states do not require masks. we know that the least likely group to get vaccinated are republican men. this is from "the washington post." at least four gop senators have not been vaccinated nor are they sharing any plan to do so in the near future.

gop senators scott and johnson did not respond to the request for comment on if and when they plan to receive the vaccine. senator braun declined to disclose the status and scolded those keeping tabs on who or has not received a vaccine. a spokesperson for senator rand paul reiterated the kentucky lawmaker's claim he is developed an immune defense to the virus after testing positive for the coronavirus last march. so david jolly, this is how they have chosen to lead. >> yeah. the only conclusion to draw is that they don't care about the public health of constituents because in this moment they have an opportunity to lead by creating a narrative of responsible public health behavior. you brought up schools. and the state of florida, other states, there are seven immunization, seven shots required before children can attend schools and the law

doesn't require that to protect the health of that single child but the public health of the children that that child comes in contact with. we are not shutting down schools because immunizations are required. for international travel it is required. end of the day for a generation of republicans their wrongly conflated data and science with a big government and been at war with data and science and big government but there is health consequences on the line here and life and death consequences. those public officials that won't support vaccines should be ashamed of themselves. >> david, you gene, errin, you are all sticking around. republicans have spent weeks trying to deflect blame from themselves, from former president trump for the deadly storming of the capitol. the latest line now is to water down the actual perpetrators.

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oh, you should pick something stronger. that's really predictable. that's a really tight spot. don't worry. i used to hate parallel parking. (all together) me too. hey. you really outdid yourself. yes, we did. the all-new buick envision. an suv built around you... all of you. keeping your oysters business growing has you swamped. you need to hire. i need indeed indeed you do. the moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a shortlist of quality candidates from a resume data base claim your seventy-five-dollar credit when you post your first job at indeed.com/promo a mob of older people from unfashionable zip codes made it all the way to washington d.c. they wandered through the capitol like it was their building or something. they didn't have guns but extremely dangerous ideas talking about the constitution and the rights. neither lisa or her son committed violence but walked

into what we used to refer to as the people's house but joe biden's convinced a trial judge that she was a threat to the republic and the son was a would be martyr. keep in mind, these are people whose crime is trespassing in the capitol. some perspective please. >> they just walked in. that's how conservatives like carlson describe january 6 and the son carlson spoke about not being a threat? take a threat here intact call gear with a bullet-proof vest carrying zip ties. the a.p. adds the man pictured also recorded their storming of the capitol and prosecutors say that video shows the pair stashed weapons in a bag before entering the building. so while we don't normally play his sound we wanted to emphasize that there is an active movement to defend or play down the actions of those that attacked the capitol.

the events of that day were serious, so serious there's movement today in that federal lawsuit against donald trump, ten more democratic members of congress joined the colleague benny thompson and the naacp alleging that the former president incited a mob to attack the capital on january 6 and the president of naacp said january 6 was did climax of a meticulously organized coup incited by donald trump that placed members of congress and the integrity of the democracy in peril. we're back with eugene, errn and david. republicans not only down play this but actual question whether or not the people who stormed the capitol on january 6th were trump supporters. what is the danger that we're continuing to watch unfold in realtime when we see these

statements that are being made that are lies? >> yeah. let me just -- first danger is that we as people in this country have yet to have a wholesale and actual conversation about supporter cannot be scared. these trump supporters, right. did every single one of the people that got into the capital, did they break every window, does every single one of them have weapons? no, but there was a weapon group that did that wanted to say they wanted to hang mike pence. all kinds that had zip ties. what are zip ties for? what we didn't hear and over the

summer from people like tucker carlson, asking basically for some nuance, some perspective. we didn't hear that thing at all over the summer when some people got violent during the anti-racism protest, right? what we saw or have been seeing is this kind of whitewashing of what happened on january 6th. what happened was an insurrection and this conversation and that's why the bipartisan commission that was supposed to be bipartisan can no longer be bipartisan because republicans seem to have a hard time divorcing themselves from their involvement because for months, they spread conspiracy theories about what happened with the election. those same conspiracy theories were said by the people that were we're looking at right now on television storm the capitol. it wasn't just about what was said on january 6th but everything that came up to it. >> you have the president saying

things like there was zero threat. he's repeated many times. how much of a hold does he still have on the american party? >> it must be condemned. people died, were injured, federal laws were broken and at the end of the day, what we saw at the capitol was something for which individuals need to be held responsible and that is at the root of why tucker carlson and other republicans are behaving the way they are. if they can whitewash this, play it down, if they can suggest that this was not the event that we saw before our eyes, they don't have to assign culpability and accept responsibility. fortunately, the courts are there to assign culpability and determine responsibility and in the case of donald trump himself, donald trump laid the predicate with the big lie for the entire event of january 6th. he issued the invitation for people to come to washington for the rally and when he spoke to the crowd that day, he gave the

charge to go to the capitol and he said, go with strength, not with weakness. donald trump is responsible for the events of january 6th. so are every man and woman who took it upon themselves to be a part of that insurrection that day. tucker carlson might give them reprieve but the courts will not. >> i mean, can it possibly be surprising though when you take a look at the polls that are out there about the republican party? i want to look quickly at what reuters ipsos found. people were mostly peaceful law-abiding citizens. 51% of republicans agree with that statement. the riot at the capitol led by violent left-wing protesters trying to make trump look bad. 55% of republicans agree but here's where 60% of republicans agree. the 2020 election was stolen from donald trump. you're a republican.

you look at that and your concern s how do i keep my base? how do i keep my job? you look at those polls and what do you think? >> you think that the big lie is working for a majority of republicans, at least at this point, right? the big lie that the election was stolen, that the election was rigged. that there were people, mostly black and brown, who shouldn't have voted in the election and were their votes not counted that president donald trump would be the president right now is working among a significant amount of americans in this country and so, to build on that big lie, you tell the big lie that the insurrection which we know had racist roots, in support of the big lie that attempted to negate the votes of black and brown people as illegal. that that insurrection was nothing more than a peaceful protest, you know, of patriots who were at the capitol simply

to make their voices heard. anybody with eyes that was watching that video that has seen footage of that video knows that that is not what happened on january 6th. but this is why continuing to confront and condemn the big lie in public for us as journalists, to leave behind an honest and accurate record of who and where we are in the country and what actually happened on january 6th is very important because we see that the counternarrative very powerful and resonating with a significant number of our fellow citizens. >> we only have 30 seconds left, eugene. but to that point, how important are these two lawsuits, the one from the officers who are suing trump over physical and emotional injuries as well as the naacp suit? >> they're huge in this conversation we're having especially when mitch mcconnell himself said during the conviction trial with the senate

that people could sue donald trump. that's exactly what we're seeing and so i think we're going to continue to see these things. obviously, we see names be added to the losses and i think that's going to continue. and when you're talking about, like errin said, it's accurate about what happened on january 6th, this is a part of that as well. >> we continue to have to talk about caring about accuracy. eugene daniels, errin hains, david jolly, thank you for spending time with us. we appreciate it. on the next hour of "deadline: white house," a lot more coming up. it starts after this quick break. coming up it starts after this quick break.

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i'm not sure if there's anything i can say don't get mad. to my family members to convince them to take the covid-19 vaccine. i'm not even sure if i'm convinced. hi darius, i think that people respond more

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republican party will regain its moral compass. >> i'll never vote for that party again unless it returns to the middle. >> for me, i know i look at what the party was then and what it is now. night and day difference. especially in terms of values, character, et cetera. >> i joined this party because i thought it had to do with personal responsibility and standing up for what is right. that clearly is no longer the case. >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york. i'm chris jansing in for nicolle wallace. those in the lead-up to the election, we heard numerous accounts of disgust from gop or former gop voters about the direction their party was going. and now we're seeing the consequences. a new gallup survey finds more americans identify as democrats than republicans by a margin that hasn't been seen in almost a decade.

49% of u.s. adults identify with the democratic party or said they are independents who lean toward the democratic party compared with 40% who identified as republican or republican leaners. putting that 90% in context, democratic advantages typically between 4% and 6% points. and a look at the torrent of punishing headlines for the party in recent days suggests that republican conduct that turned voters away before is still ongoing, even without trump in office. today, more shocking developments into the justice department's inquiry into gop congressman matt goetz for blanket preemptive pardons. republicans against traditional allies. corporations as the gop continues to weaponize the big lie about the 2020 election

result and moves to suppress access going forward. former speaker john boehner not holding back his rebuke of what happened january 6th. incited that bloody insurrection for nothing. hundreds of thousands of deaths could have been prevented. meanwhile the gop at the same time experts urge caution. not a single republican voted for biden's covid relief package, some are now touting its provisions that benefit their constituents. and the party's major tenets of small government and big business have been flipped upside down, says nbc's first read. it's a party that now shaped in trump's image, even among those who didn't start out. active and authoritarian and

governening and ruling by grievance. telling business what they can and can't do. legislating their form of morality and stripping away authority from the officials who did their job in the 2020 election. the future of the gop is where we begin this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former missouri senator claire mccaskill, david plouffe and charlie sykes. lucky for us, all three are msnbc contributors. it's great to see all of you. and i don't mean this facetiously, charlie. are you surprised that five months after donald trump was soundly defeated after the republicans lost the senate, they did not take control of the house, that they are still perpetuating the kinds of strategies, the kinds of lies that got donald trump kicked out

of office? >> actually, i am. there's no question about it that donald trump didn't cause all the problems in the republican party. it was a preexisting condition and obviously the cancer metastasized, but think about the reaction after january 6th. there was this brief moment, kind of a mini prague spring where republicans looked around themselves and said, maybe we need to get away from this. maybe we need to reevaluate our support for donald trump and that lasted about two days. and as a result, this is a party that has become more reckless, more irresponsible, more from any sort of definable principle. the good news is that it's a shrinking party. the bad news is that because of their structural position that they still can get power back, but you ran through all of the things happening to this republican party and now they're doubling down on all of the

things that have taken them out of power. but also, make them a real threat, an ongoing threat to democracy in this country. >> you know this, very well, david plouffe. if your party takes a she shelacking, you either double down for whatever reason you think you should double down or you do what reince priebus did back in 2013 and decided to do this autopsy on the republican party and figure out where they had gone wrong, how do they fix it. in the 538, terry bacon wrote this. typically after losing presidential elections, a party will undertake an intraparty debate over why it didn't win and how the party needs to change to take back the white house. republicans are basically doing a very slight rebrand while not even announcing that rebrand because the party is both resistant to change and largely resistant to even talking about change. for now, as historian larry

described it, the republicans are in a state of not-topsy. are they struggling to figure out what they stand for, if they stand for as a political strategy, how does this make sense, david? >> it makes no sense, chris, from a political sense or a mathematical. in politics, you need to be about addition, not subtraction. charlie mentioned, the republicans have some structural advantages. you've got redistricting and gerrymandering. the senate, which is right now, runs the risk of permanent minority rule and electoral college, but this is a party that's won the popular vote in the presidential race once in 28 years. donald trump, they just want to keep riding the trump train. let's remember, this is a guy who ran for president and failed to get over 47% of the vote plus. what's happening here is a doubling down on donald trump is their forever leader and so many

of the decisions that political leaders are making in the republican party is based on newsmax, oann, and sean hannity and 10% to 15% of the country which is the activist wing of the republican party. and so as a democrat, the healthiest thing we need as a country is for the republican party to heal itself and become more competitive because we are going to live under constant threat of this democracy vanishing. they have fully embraced autocracy now. there's a lot of odious parts of the bill in georgia but the state legislature saying no matter what the voters say, if we don't like the outcome, we can overturn it. similar efforts in arizona. this is a very dark time for democracy. there's no optimism in the republican party right now. it's all darkness and grievance and blame game. it's about as far away from ronald reagan's message as you can imagine. >> yeah, a lot of people thought, claire mccaskill, there was a little bit of light when

asa hutchinson said we're not going to ban health care for transgender youth in our state and what happens? his veto gets overridden. >> yeah. you know, i do think that david's right that the republican party is, has become calcified in this echo chamber where they are both seduced by and afraid of the trump base. the trump republicans. in my state, the majority of republicans call themselves trump republicans. they used to call themselves evangelical republicans. they now call themselves trump republicans. so i don't think this is a growth trajectory for the republican party to be so closely associated with what donald trump stands for. and by the way, they're very confused right now. they're so busy on these cultural wars, they have lost their principles of fiscal responsibility, small government, they've embraced

federalism and now even though mitch mcconnell has been the number one cheerleader for calling corporations people so they can have first amendment rights when it comes to political contributions, now he's all about shutting them down and making sure they can't speak as people on issues of the day. so he's busy trying to punish corporations which got him to the majority leadership in the first place. it will be interesting to see how this love/hate relationship with the corporate world. >> send me donations but don't talk about anything seems to be the message here. when you talk about the culture wars, you do seem to have this divide. they focus a lot of their attention. in the meantime, you have joe biden who has done what he said he was going to do, stay laser focused on issues, stay laser

focused on the economy, laser focused on covid and part of the economy step two for him is this infrastructure bill. so he had an event today and he talked about his ongoing belief that there can be bipartisanship. let me play that for you. >> whatever partisan divisions there are around other issues, don't have to be around this one. the divisions at the moment shouldn't stop from doing the right thing for the future. these aren't republican bridges. democratic airports, republican hospitals or democratic power grid. think of the transcontinental railroad, highway system, space race. one nation united and connected. as i said last week, i'm going to bring republicans to the white house and invite them to come. we'll have good faith negotiations and any republican who want to get this done, i invite. i invite them.

we have to get these things done. we're in an inflection point in american democracy. >> so david, if the republicans want to keep talking about things like an election being stolen that we all know wasn't stolen, if they want to focus on the culture wars and joe biden's going to continue to make sure more americans get vaccinated, and that jobs are being created through this proposal, the infrastructure plan, is the struggle by the gop to figure out what it is, what it's going to do, actually providing an opening for joe biden? >> it's a huge opening and it could be an opening not just for joe biden, but for democrats for the next decade. because again, republicans, the windshield they're looking through is about their hard core base. it's about primaries. it's not about winning general elections in competitive districts or states or the presidential race. so yeah, where are we going to be, chris, four or five months from now? hopefully, pretty much everybody's vaccinated, school's

open. the economy roaring. joe biden democrats are going to have a lot to say about how they helped accelerate that. and republicans for the most part didn't cooperate with that, even though a healthy share of their voters support things like the infrastructure package. so yeah, the sort of politics of grievance and culture war and not cooperating, the hypocrisy that claire talked about putting them in a challenging place. this is a closely divided political country, so we still have a lot of close elections but right now, you see joe biden answering the mail of americans every day. they want focused on vaccinations, opening up schools, opening up the economy which is what he's doing. republicans nowhere to be found because they're under the throne of donald trump. it is more of a cult than a political party and if anything, that's intensified since his loss. >> i do wonder though, claire, with this infrastructure bill, obviously, there are legitimate questions that can be asked

there, legitimate discussions that can be had about the price tag and how this money should be spent and where it should go to or the focus should be. but given that, how much of this talk of bipartisanship can he continue to do or continue to do things clearly popular with the majority of the american people? >> they are playing the reconciliation card because they know it creates leverage but make no mistake about it. they would love this to be bipartisan. joe, the president of the united states, is going to have to be very disciplined about inviting bipartisan and their yuds. you've heard them say, where are your ideas on how to pay for infrastructure? how do you think we should build bridges and grid and entertainment capability?

they have to come with something. they can't say they're doing it through reconciliation, so we aren't for it on the covid relief bill. that will paint them into a corner that will not help them in the midterms. they'll have to come to something. i don't know whether it will end up being a partisan vote but a real genuine effort to make it something other than a partisan vote before this is said and done. >> is there anybody more to the center of the republican party who has a voice that will be listened to? we've been hearing from john boehner, a book out in the "new york times." the members of the house and senate who supported mr. donald trump's effort to overturn the election results, mr. boehner writes, some of the people have not surprised me in the least, the legislative terrorism i witnessed as speaker have now encouraged actual terrorism. but how much of the republican party is listening? >> well, they may be listening

but they're not willing to speak out about it and by the way, it would have been good if john boehner would have spoken out before the 2020 election. it might have made a difference and he didn't do that. but here's the problem. you may have 30% or 40% of republicans looking at this and appalled but not willing to say about because they're terrified of being exiled. dave is right. this is a party that's functioning more like a personality cult than it is like a political party. but i do want to go back to something that you've been discussing which is the really radical different approaches to these two political parties are taking. the democrats are betting that it is about the economy, that by passing these substantive policy decisions that they will put themselves in a strong position. the republicans are all in on a completely different version of american politics today.

they believe the cultural issues, the politics of grievance, is more effective moving votes than putting checks in people's pockets or back to work. it is a very radically different view of all this and frankly, i don't know what the answer is. whether or not this cultural divide, making everything into the politics of grievance is, in fact, in this current environment with the current eco-system we have right now, whether it is more effective but we're going to find out over the next several years. we have two dramatically different philosophies of the state of american politics right now. >> i think we know a lot of voters who were republicans and maybe are still republicans but who decided not to vote for donald trump did because of the weariness of this kind of approach. david plouffe, always great to see you. claire mccaskill and charlie sykes are sticking around with us. after the break, the latest in the nationwide clash over voting rights. one democratic mayor is showcasing a new tool in her

arsenal to curb the power of georgia's restrictive new law. plus, the republican party picking up where trump left off when it comes to scamming its own supporters. the new fundraising trick by the republican congressional committee. and international alarm over a chief critic of vladimir putin getting sicker and sicker and sicker in a russian prison. all that when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't goer anywhere. a quick break. don't goer anywhere. ear of cream cheese. the recipe we invented over 145 years ago and me...the world's best, and possibly only, schmelier. philadelphia. schmear perfection. oh yeah, we gotta take off. you downloaded the td ameritrade mobile app? yeah, actually i'm taking one last look at my dashboard before we board... and you have thinkorswim mobile- -so i can finish analyzing the risk on this position. you two are all set. choose the app that fits your investing style. ♪♪

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what they need to do to be able to cast their ballots when the time come. >> disproportionately impacted minority groups in georgia, which flipped blue last year after record turnout. mayor bottom says her directive which aims to help atlanta residents navigate new gop deciding voting rules and registration deadlines is, quote, designed to do what those in the majority of the state legislature did not. expand access to our right to vote. joining our conversation, msnbc contributor and "washington post" contributing columnist, former congresswoman. charlie sykes back with us as well with claire mccaskill. donna, is this where we are? frankly, turnout was incredible in the 2020 election to kind of try to help people navigate calling on her chief equity

officer, to help people navigate how they can do what they've already done which is vote and not have trouble doing it? >> well, sadly, this is called using every tool that you have in the tool box and i think that mayor lance bottoms is doing that for the citizens of atlanta and unfortunately, there are dozens of these, i think over 360 of these type bills that are moving forward at various stages all across the country. in a couple of dozen legislatures, they've actually moved through either the house or the senate and so there's a real challenge across the country and for local officials to keep up with what's happening and to try to do the best they can to make sure that voting access is expanded. and short of passing legislation in the congress and then also try to fight these things in the court, i applaud the mayor for

doing what she needs to do to make sure that the people in her state or in her city are able to cast their vote. >> yeah, and obviously, she's taking a stand, a stand that she has taken before, but do you think, donna, in the grand scheme of things, tracking these hundreds of bills moving through legislatures throughout the country. can an eo really undo or only mildly mitigate what state legislatures can do? i mean, just this one point, one of the things she can't do is say volunteers aren't allowed to, are allowed to give water to people waiting online for hours? i mean, how far can a mayor go versus a state legislature? >> chris, you've hit it right on the head. of course the mayor can't undo every single thing that this

horrible, these horrible restrictive laws are doing in the state. but what she can do is figure out ways that she can make sure that voters in atlanta understand what their rights are, have access to the ballot, make sure they're able to register to vote and have the proper identification. all of these things are things that are within her control and it's a sad day in american politics and in this country where democracy hangs in the balance because a mayor has to figure out how to get around a legislature that is trying to restrict voters' access to the ballot box. >> let's look at another state, texas, that has some legislation that among other things, would limit voting hours, restrict the number of voting machines at countywide polling places, ban election officials from sending out unsolicited mail ballots, applications to voters and provide more access to poll

watchers at election sites. eric holder had this to say to the "dallas morning news." a multi-war on democracy. including the slew of bills in texas. what the hell does that have to do with election integrity? there's diabolical ways from the polls and get there in a really easy way. claire, it's hard to separate this from what we've been talking about earlier in this hour which is that if the polls suggest that fewer people identify as republicans, if more people in your party believe things that are provably untrue, this is your path to maybe holding on to some houses in the congress, maybe holding on to state legislatures and

governorships. >> yeah, i just don't think this is a good strategy though. i mean, let's back this truck up and look at what they're actually doing. what they're saying to everyone is, we don't want you to vote. because if you vote, we're not going to win. so i mean, guess what that makes everybody want to do. it makes everybody want to vote. if you are denied a right that is fundamentally american, if they are making it hard, and they have made very clear that's their message here, and by the way, this has been going on for a while. this didn't start with trump. they've been trying to limit access to the polls for a long time. i mean, we shouldn't have elections on tuesdays. we should have open elections for more than one or two days. we should make this easy, everybody should automatically be registered. but instead, the republicans are afraid of voters. they're scared of voters. they don't want voters. that is not a long-term winning strategy for a political party.

i think in the long run, they're going to encourage more people to vote and they're going to vote against them. >> it is such a good point, claire. we saw people lining up in the middle of the pandemic and in the early days of the pandemic when there was a lot more fear and lot less known, we saw them waiting for hours and hours to vote in spite of the fact that they were told many times in many ways, we don't want you to do that. >> yeah, it is not a good look for a political party. look, i think the key question is, why is this happening? why are these states doing this? what is the problem they're trying to solve? and the answer is, it is because of the big lie that we heard from donald trump who tried to overturn the election. i'll tell you what disturbs me the most. i do think there are things you can do to mitigate some of these restrictions on voting. i think there will be a backlash

against that. but what worries me the most is the question of how willing are republican and republican legislators to try to overturn the results of an election. we saw this attempt in 2020. we know what donald trump tried to do. he tried to get legislatures to come in and overturn the election. election officials to find the ballots. what if there are more trumpian election officials next week? was the big lie a rehearsal for what they want to do in the future? and that no longer feels extreme to say that, especially when you look at some of the details of the election laws which give partisan legislatures much more power and authority than they had in the past. so i guess i'm much more concerned about this because we saw the willingness of donald trump and his supporters and the republican party to go along with the nullification of the election. not just making it harder to vote but we are prepared to

actually throw out the popular vote in a number of major states. that's what worries me. >> one of the things that we did see as well is republican secretaries of state who stood by the integrity of the election. we saw court after court standing by the integrity of the election. so much more to talk about. when we come back, the deceptive new strategies adopted by the gop that appear to prey on their own unwitting republican donors. r own unwitting republican donors. s plan for my business, but all my employees need something different. oh, we can help with that. okay, imagine this... your mover, rob, he's on the scene and needs a plan with a mobile hotspot. we cut to downtown, your sales rep lisa has to send some files, asap! so basically i can pick the right plan for each employee... yeah i should've just led with that... with at&t business... you can pick the best plan for each employee and only pay for the features they need.

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in the wake of a bombshell report earlier this week, detailing a scheme by the trump campaign to steer supporters into unwitting donations, republicans on capitol hill appear to be taking a page out of trump's play book. a piece by the bulwark, the national republican congressional committee. promising early access to trump as of now, non-existent social network, in exchange for donations and offers default settings that not only doubles supporters' donations but convert them automatically to recurring monthly payments. the same technique when used by the trump campaign last summer netted him millions of dollars and a flood of fraud complaints from his supporters. we're back with donna edwards, claire mccaskill and charlie

sykes. i'll go on a limb and say most people don't like to be scammed. having said that, is the calculation here, well, maybe it doesn't matter as long as the money is coming in or even if we see reports on these as scams, they're not going to believe them because they come from the mainstream media? i mean, a lot of people appear to be quite ticked off about this, donna. >> well, i'm going to go out on another limb and say most people also don't like to have money taken out of their bank account without their permission. and if this is a way to turn off your supporters, i think money is the way to do that. people losing their rent and their mortgage and being able to pay their bills because they've been ripped off by some political operation. i would say that's a way to turn off your supporters. if i was republicans, i would

watch that one. down to 40%. it could drop a little lower. >> so they got more donations, but then they also got a much larger volume of requests for refunds. claire, is this legal? >> this would typically be actionable by the state's attorney general. this is a form of fraud. this is a deceptive marketing. no other way to put it. it's deceptive marketing and believe me, attorneys general love to do these kinds of cases because they're very popular with the electorate. now, the question is, will we get some democratic attorneys general around the country or more importantly, will republican attorney generals turn the other way at the fraudulent marketing that's going on within the republican party? >> yeah, i wonder if they get out of it with this information

in the final two and a half months of 2020, claire, trump campaign and their share accounts issued more than $530,000, more than half a million refunds. worth $63.3 million to the online donors according to the "new york times." the sum dwarfed that of the biden campaign and equivalent committees. they made 37,000 online refunds. 64.3, claire, versus 5.6 million. yeah, and every person who's angry enough to ask for a refund, you've lost them. and you've lost their friends, if they have a beer with at the bar if we are post-covid. because everyone's going to be talking about this. this is the kind of ripoffs people love to share with their friends and neighbors. really, really dumb and i can't believe the congressional

campaigns are doing the same thing now. this is not the way you get a majority in the country. >> charlie, she makes a good point. we all, when something happens to us, when we feel we've been wronged, we feel we've been slighted, that's the first thing we talk about on our zoom call these days, but in some places, still around the bar or the corner. >> i think some of this is missing the point. think about the contempt for their own supporters that you're seeing reflected in these scams. i mean, it's not just the trump campaign, which is ripping off its own people. it thinks that they're easy to con. folks, i know this is serve serving but go look at tim's piece in the bulwark. they're basically saying keep this box checked. it's already checked to draft donald trump to run for president and if you don't, if you uncheck it, we're going to report you to donald trump.

we're going to tell donald trump that you're a defector, that you've betrayed him. this is remarkable stuff. this is the republican congressional campaign which shouldn't be necessarily shilling for donald trump running for president next time, but they're threatening their own supporters that they're going to rat them out to donald trump. if you uncheck this box, which is amazing on so many levels and yes, it's fraud, yes, it's a scam. but it also tells you what republicans think about their people, that in fact, this sort of bullying, this sort of threat, this sort of fraud is going to work for them and that it's worth doing and i think that's incredibly revealing. >> yeah, donna, can we go back to the full screen that actually shows what that would look like when people went online to donate? it's annoying enough for a lot of people that they have to uncheck boxes when they go on that says, can we share?

we can share your information with some of our partners or whatever, but this is about money these two boxes which commit people to recurring donations, larger donations, are prechecked boxes that you would have to uncheck, donna. >> also, people don't follow that very closely and most people don't make political contributions at all. so it's really difficult for them to track all of this and it's really unfortunate because when somebody makes a $50 contribution, it might be the only $50 that they have and so, it is really deceptive and hurtful and wrong to essentially steal money away from your own supporters. >> it might be the money you're

using to pay your bills and feed your kids. >> everything about this is just bizarre. and really, i agree that it shows such disdain for the people who have been the life and the breath behind the donald trump movement in the republican party. it is, in fact, the millions of people who have given $25 or $15 to donald trump because they really believed in him. he was the real deal and if you listen to them talk about him, it's almost with a reverence. the idea that they would be so disrespectful to these people that they would think these people are so stupid that they wouldn't figure out what they were doing. and it is really discouraging and depressing that it's come to this, especially when you realize it's now been embraced by the congressional campaign committee of the national republican party. that's really sickening. >> claire mccaskill, donna

edwards, charlie sykes. appreciate you so much. up next, the critic of vladimir putin whose health appears to be deteriorating rapidly in prison. to be deterio rapidly in prison.

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navalni in prison now sick. according to the "new york times," he's showing signs of respiratory illness and that he's been moved to the infirmary. you'll remember thousands were arrested in a crackdown on protests across russia when he was arrested in january shortly after he survived a near fatal chemical poisoning from a military grade nervous agent. he was later sentenced to two years in a notorious russian prison on a parole violation. more recently, last week, he started a hunger strike over lack of adequate medical care for pain in his back and legs. in fact, just yesterday, during a protest outside of navalny's prison, his personal journalist said treatment he's receiving poses a lethal risk to his health. the doctor promptly arrested along with several reporters. let's bring in msnbc international affairs analyst, former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfall.

how concerning are these reports in the "new york times"? >> deeply concerning. it's frightening to hear what's been happening to him, to see what's happened to his health and just the time he's been in prison, he may be tuberculosis or other ailments and he's not getting the treatment he needs to survive. you know, his family, opposition leaders have always worried that the main goal once he went into prison was just to survive and that now looks like it's being threatened. >> yeah, there's apparently some reports that navalny suspected tuberculosis, a common contagion in russian prisons. give us an idea, because you know what that looks like being inside a russian prison, what he's facing right now. >> i actually have been inside russian prisons. in the government, we had exchanges and dialogue about

prison conditions in russia and the united states. russian prisons are tough places to be. he's in a really, really tough place. tuberculosis, most of the world doesn't experience anymore, doesn't have, there are rare strains in russian prisons and it's a very dangerous place and he also tweeted out that there were three other inmates in the same facility where he's living that looked and sounded like they had tuberculosis. and i think this underscores just the brutality of the putin regime. as you said, they tried to kill him before. he left the country and had to go to germany to survive, he came back being as courageous as he is, and then they arrested him because he violated his parole for saving his life in germany. just think of how absurd that is and now it looks like they're not afraid to allow him to die in prison. it's just a really horrific

regime the way they're treating him this way. >> what does this mean for russia itself? we saw what happened with the protests before and now you have a situation where he's potentially being tortured, where he may be giving treatment that threatens his life. the potential he might not survive this and what this might mean on the streets of russia. >> of course, even his deteriorating condition could spark big demonstrations. if somehow he tragically died, it would, i think, spark major demonstrations, and number two, just look at those photos of them arresting his doctor. i looked at them, speaking very calmly, stop grabbing my arms. i think it really underscores that this is a regime that's in decay. you don't arrest your best and brightest. you cannot, forever, oppress the most talented people in your

country and i think these images suggest that the putin regime is much more frail than we think in the west. we think of being this strong man and in charge. i think he wouldn't be in jail if putin was popular and i hope it doesn't come to the, some horrible outcome that he might die in jail and then the regime would really be tested. >> yeah, and it seems like there's no way that's too small to torture, essentially, alexei navalny. also resorted to petty harassment. now well into a hunger strike, they have been grilling chicken. i'm sure that doesn't surprise you. >> well, it's horrible. it's awful and they sent in but.

out of the blue she showed up with a camera crew and started interrogating him. they're obviously trying to break him. psychologically and physically and it's tragic, you know, for us to look on and think, what can we do? there's little we can what can e do? and it's tragic for those of his supporters. it is difficult to know what can be done to try to help him other than to remind people this is happening and to remind the putin regime that the world is watching how they're treating, you know, mr. navalny and how they're torturing mr. navalny even after he has been arrested. >> what, if anything, are you watching for in terms of what the u.s. government and might do or our allies could or might do? >> i do think the options are limited. i'm grateful for the fact that the biden administration is speaking out against this.

that's something that we did not have for several years in the trump administration. and i think they should be signaling what kinds of new sanctions would come should something even worse happen to mr. navalny. i don't want to pretend that is a silver bullet. but they have to know there will be consequences should his health deteriorate. of course that is always better said if we're doing it in collaboration with our european allies. >> ambassador, it is always great to have your wisdom and expertise. thank you so much for coming on. and when we return, as we do every day, we will remember lives well-lived. king. talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. fast lunching. thanks, gary. and for unexpected heartburn... frank is a fan of maximum strength pepcid. pepcid works in minutes. nexium 24 hour and prilosec otc can take one to four days to fully work.

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good evening, and welcome to "the beat." we have a big program tonight. we will go inside the courtroom of the derek chauvin murder trial. and tonight a new problem facing mitch mcconnell. that's our special report later. but we begin with the ongoing scandal involving republican matt gaetz. he faces the sex allegations being investigated by the doj. he's been largely abandoned by donald trump in public and donald trump's white house reportedly rebuffed what was a very incriminating request from gaetz in private. he asked for a preemptive