person who is experiencing cardiac arrest, right, and they are put in an ambulance and taken to the hospital for resuscitation, they are often -- there's i.v.s placed in a person, right? >> yes. >> those i.v.s contain saline? >> yes. >> saline can ultimately dilute or decrease, to some degree, the amount of controlled substances that would be -- as they would be measured? >> that's a theoretical possibility. >> you would agree that fentanyl is a respiratory depressant, right? >> yes. >> it slows breathing and lowers oxygen in the blood? >> yes. >> does the fact that there's norfentanyl in his blood mean he took it some time ago? >> yes.

but by some time that's -- that's a very vague -- >> long enough in the past to startmetabolizing? >> exactly. >> does it exclude him taing fentanyl more recently in time? >> no. there's no way of knowing the timing. >> fentanyl depressing the respiratory system can also act with the coronary artery -- can interact with coronary vessel disease, correct? >> can you clarify that? i'm sorry. >> sure. does fentanyl's depression of the respiratory system also act with coronary artery vessel disease and oxygen and carbon dioxide to reduce the supply of -- its supply to the heart? >> oh, so as fentanyl may lead

to a gradual progression of slowing breathing, and ultimately decrease the oxygen, that would apply to oxygen to the brain as well as to the heart. is that what you are -- yeah. >> it would likewise increase the carbon dioxide in the blood? >> yeah. i mean anything that decreases respiration decreases that exchange. >> as that exchange process is happening, you are not taking in the oxygen, you are likewise not expelling the carbon dioxide? >> right. >> thus, the carbon dioxide will increase because you are not expelling it? >> correct. >> you would agree that methamphetamine is a stimulant? >> correct. >> that can cause a cardiac arrhythmia? >> it can. >> it can increase a person's

heart rate? >> it can. >> you testified before that methamphetamine -- there's no safe level of methamphetamine? >> correct. >> the fact that methamphetamine is at a lower standard doesn't somehow make it safe? >> right. >> it doesn't exclude the possibility that it could increase the heart rate? >> it could or not. >> in terms of the evidence in this case, were you made aware that drugs were found in the back seat of the squad car? >> yes. >> and that those drugs contained the dna of mr. floyd? >> yes. >> and that those drugs were at least to some degree partially dissolved? >> yes. >> that those drugs were

fentanyl -- a mixture of fentanyl and methamphetamine? >> yes. >> based on toxicology in this case, did you see any metabolic byproduct of methamphetamine? >> no. >> so that means the methamphetamine was taken more acutely or recently in time? >> probably. there's lots of variables. >> again, just kind of taking into consideration removing certain variables, you find a person at home, no struggle with the police, right, and the person doesn't have a heart problem, but you find fentanyl and methamphetamine in this person's system at the levels that they are at, would you certify this as an overdose? >> again, in the absence of any

of these other realities, yes, i could consider that to be an overdose. >> the level of fentanyl in a person -- again, in this hypothetical scenario, there are deaths certified as drug overdoses significantly lower than 11 nanograms? >> it's got a huge range, yes. >> as low as 3% or three nanograms? >> yes. >> the ingestion of drugs is unique to that individual's body, right? >> right.

>> your honor, i have no further questions. >> mr. blackwell. >> dr. thomas, a few things i would like to try to clarify with you. >> thank you. >> you were asked a number of questions that were to the effect that if we take the police subduing, restraint and neck compression out of this, what would you conclude mr. floyd's cause of death to have been. remember those questions? >> oh, yes. >> aren't those questions a lot like asking, mrs. lincoln, if we take john wilkes booth out of this -- >> objection. >> may i finish? >> it's argumentative. sustained. >> dr. thomas, if we put the

police subduing, compression and neck compression into this, restraint and neck compression into this, what was the cause, manner of death for mr. george floyd? >> the cause of death was the law enforcement subduing, restraint and compression and the manner of death is homicide. >> does it make any sense to you whatsoever from the standpoint of trying to assess cause and manner of death for mr. floyd to be answering questions having to do with hypothetically taking the facts of this case out relating to his subduing, restraint and neck compression? >> you can finish the question. >> dr. thomas, from your standpoint as a forensic pathologist, and your analysis of manner and cause of death, would you approach an assessment of manner and cause of death by

taking out of it the facts that you thought relevant and highly pertinent to assessing and determining the manner and cause of death? >> no. >> in this case, those factors are what? >> the law enforcement, subduing, restraint and compression. >> you were asked questions about fentanyl and meth. remember those questions? >> yes. >> do you know what quantity of meth was even involved or found in mr. floyd's bloodstream? >> i have the number. >> let me ask you a question. >> it was very small. i do know that. >> this was the point. when you found it was a very small amount? >> correct. >> were you able to assess, based on the amount, what kind of affect, if at all it would have on the stress or strain on his heart? >> no. there's too much individual variability to correlate one number with one person's reaction. >> let's say with respect to

fentanyl if there's a punch line we can get to. fentanyl has been discussed with you, dr. thomas, as a respiratory either depressant or suppressant? >> yes. >> in order for us to go from fentanyl to death, in the middle there's certain symptoms and responses and reactions a person would have who is suffering from fentanyl overdose or intoxication? >> yes. >> if the person doesn't have those symptoms, those indicators, then would you feel that it's possible even to conclude that they are suffering from fentanyl intoxication or overdose? >> no. if there's no signs of fentanyl overdose, then it makes no sense to conclude that there was an

overdose from fentanyl. >> to be clear for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what are those symptoms of fentanyl overdose or intoxication? >> fentanyl is an opioid. it's like morphine or heroin. it causes slowing -- well, first of all, it's a potent pain medication. given mostly for that. but it also can cause slowing of the respiratory rate in a very gradual, peaceful, non-struggle kind of way. what is described as people just fall asleep and may just kind of slump gradually over because they very peacefully stop breathing or it slows and then eventually stops. >> they fall into a sleep out of which they can't even be aroused? >> correct. >> would that be also known as a

coma? >> yes. ultimately, it's a coma. >> when george floyd was on the ground for the 9 minutes and 29 seconds, was he asleep to the point of not being able to be aroused? >> not for the first half of it, no. then afterwards, he was completely unresponsive. but that's a different -- >> for the second half, unresponsive with no pulse? >> exactly. >> was george floyd, during the 9 minutes and 29 seconds ever in a coma that you saw? >> no. >> when we talk about fentanyl overdose, did you ever see as applied to george floyd, during the 9 minutes and 29 seconds -- >> objection. >> did you ever see as relates to fentanyl overdose during the 9 minutes and 29 seconds that he was on the ground and during the subduing and restraint by mr. chauvin, that he ever exhibited

any of the symptoms of fentanyl intoxication? >> no. you were asked quite a few questions about the heart. remember that discussion? >> yes. >> i think it was to the effect the heart was slightly enlarged, high blood pressure, narrowing of the coronary arteries, dead heart muscle cells. do you recall all of that being discussed? >> yes. >> in order for us to go from there being issues with damage to the heart to a death from damage to the heart, in the middle, do we have to have certain cardiac events that then lead to death? >> yes. >> would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, if we're going to talk about heart conditions, what are those conditions in the middle that actually lead to death? >> well, what ultimately leads to death is an arrhythmia, abnormal beating of the heart.

as i described, it's generally -- it's often called a sudden cardiac arrest because it's sudden and someone just drops over. >> to be clear when we are talking about these various heart conditions, and a sudden cardiac arrest, fatal arrhythmia, did you see any indication of all this discussion about heart conditions that mr. floyd ever suffered from a sudden fatal cardiac arrhythmia as the primary cause of death? >> no. >> was there any evidence that mr. floyd suffers from a heart attack? >> no. >> if you bring to mind what was found during the autopsy, was there any injury found to mr. floyd's heart whatsoever? >> no. >> if we talk about, for example, dead heart muscle cells, any dead heart muscle

cells seen on autopsy? >> not that dr. breaker described and not that i saw, no. >> his heart was so ordinary in terms of non-injury that it wasn't even photographed intact, was it? >> not intact, no. dr. baker took one photo that shows no scars and no acute injury. >> you were asked about certain studies out of canada on the prone position. >> yes. >> the findings out of canada supposedly with real police and real police settings was no fatalities. >> yes. >> are you familiar with any such studies reaching that conclusion in the united states of america? >> no. >> what is so peculiar about canada that we are talking about canadian studies here? >> that's what i don't understand.

i mean -- yeah. i found that study and i just thought, i don't know how to interpret this. it's so contrary to the actual experience of forensic pathologists in the united states. >> you were asked questions about whether the prone position is safe to lay on your stomach. >> yes. >> are you familiar with whether or not laying in the prone position automatically brings about a reduction in the oxygen reserves in the neighborhood of 20% to 24%? >> i am not aware of that. i would defer to a clinician. >> perhaps a pulmonologist? >> that would be the best, yes. >> i think you were, in fact, asked a question about laying by the pool on my stomach in florida. >> yes. >> george floyd was not laying

by the pool on his stomach in florida, was he? >> no. >> i know the answer to this, but i will ask. you were asked a question about sitting on a church bench with a baseball under your butt. you have never done that? >> no. >> you were asked questions about symptoms of damage to the brain. >> yes. >> whether there was any evidence of damage to mr. floyd's brain. >> yes. >> would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury whether the fact that you observed an anoxic seizure, was that evidence of damage to the brain? >> yes. what happens in the brain is when there's inadequate oxygen,

it reacts by causing this anoxic reaction or seizure we have described. if someone then goes on and essentially is brain dead, but their heart can be restarted and they are kept alive for, say, a day and then they die, then you will see changes in the brain. but in a case like mr. floyd where he died during this period of time and his heart was never able to be restarted, that is not enough time for the brain cells to show any kind of reaction that you could see at autopsy. >> thank you, dr. thomas. no further questions. >> anything further? >> yes, your honor. >> dr. thomas, after the heart

stops, if a heart stops, is it possible the body will continue to breathe or respire? >> yes, i suppose it could in some circumstances. >> that could -- that continued respiration after the heart stops could be a matter of a minute or two, correct? >> i suppose that could happen. >> you would agree that methamphetamine also further constricts the arteries, right? >> it can do that. >> so that constriction -- there's been a lot of discussion about the level of methamphetamine in the system, this low level as has been described, right? you said there's no safe level, agreed? >> yes. >> would you as a physician prescribe methamphetamine to a

person who has a 90% or 75% occlusion to his or her heart? >> objection. beyond the scope and relevance. >> you may answer if you have an opinion in that regard. >> i don't have an opinion. i'm sorry. >> no further questions. >> thank you, dr. thomas. you are excused. take our lunch recess. we will reconvene at 1:30. >> there is our cue, the lunch break is in. welcome to "meet the press daily." i'm chuck todd. you have been watching msnbc's live coverage of the murder trial of derek chauvin. the prosecution has been focusing on how george floyd died. a good day for the prosecution. today, jurors are hearing from more medical experts. the medical examiner, who conducted george floyd's

autopsy, who is yet to testify, is expected to testify this afternoon. it's not lost on any of us they are putting on the experts before the medical examiner testifies. before that testimony, we have been hearing from dr. lindsey thomas, who helped train andrew baker. she told jurors mr. floyd died from asphyxia and it was a direct result of interaction with police that night. >> if you put all this together, cardiopulmonary arrest, complicating law enforcement subduing, restraint, what does it mean? >> the activities of the law enforcement resulted in mr. floyd's death, and it was the restraint and neck compression. >> they asked about the medical examiner's conclusion that mr.

floyd's death was the result of homicide. >> usually, drug doses are accidental, unless there's evidence of intent, in which case it would be suicidal. >> if the manner of death has been determined to be homicide, does that in your opinion as a medical examiner rule out a death by accidental drug overdose? >> yes. >> the defense is raising alternate neartheories about ho george floyd died. pressing dr. thomas about the size of floyd's heart. shaquille brewster has been covering the trial. also joining me is former federal prosecutor glen kerschner and dr. william marone, a forensic toxicologist and dr. gupta. shaq, let me start with you. i go back to yesterday and so

far today, it is pretty clear the prosecution is trying to set up the medical examiner's testimony in a specific way. they are very concerned about it being framed in isolation. >> reporter: that's right, chuck. it's almost like they are saying, before you hear that, we want you to hear from these experts. we are hearing from dr. thomas. we heard from the pumonologist yesterday. we will hear from a cardiologist before we get to hear from the medical examiner. they are trying to paint this picture of before you listen and before you see the numbers, before you see the detail from the medical examiner, listen to our experts so you can frame how you listen to what we expect to hear later. what we heard from dr. thomas, i think you saw it was what exactly the prosecution has been trying to get out of these experts. sherivation that is the

cause of death. she has done thousands of autopsied. this just happened in the past 20 minutes or so. you saw the cross-examination and the redirect where they went back and forth where you heard the defense say, if you were to take out all of these elements, would you rule this an overdose? of course, the defense is saying that this was overdose death combined with previous medical conditions. you heard in the redirect and you heard blackwell get a little testy in his redirect and say, well, you can say that about lincoln, if you said to -- if you take out john wilkes booth, that wasn't random. the reason why that came up is going back to the court filings, investigators say that andrew baker told them back in june that if mr. floyd had been found dead in his home or anywhere else and there were no other contributing factors, he would conclude it was an overdose death. we don't know what he will say later on the stand today. there's a reason why eric nelson was bringing up that scenario. there's a reason why you heard

the aggressive redirection from the prosecution. it's because we don't know what andrew baker will say. based on the autopsy report where he didn't mention asphyxiation, based on the interviews with the investigators, there's a sign that it may not be exactly what prosecution wants the jury to hear. >> shaq, stick around. control room, as i bring in the rest of our experts here -- doctor, i want you to react to what are shots one and two. it was the testimony that said how to view autopsy and the best way to use an autopsy. take a listen. >> the way the autopsy really helps is it is great for ruling things out. in this case, the autopsy ruled out, for example, underlying lung disease. it ruled out injuries to the

neck that suggest that his -- the bone in his neck had been broken, for example. it ruled out a stroke. he didn't have a stroke. it wasn't like his blood pressure was so high that he ruptured a vessel in his brain. he didn't have an aneurysm. he didn't have -- which is a ruptured vessel. he didn't have an embolism, which is a blood clot. he didn't rupture his heart. what i observed from all of these videos is this was not a sudden death. mr. floyd did not -- it's not like this snow shovels where somebody comes in and collapses and clutches their chest and falls over. there was nothing sudden about his death. likewise, it was not the type of death that has been reported in fentanyl overdose, for example, where someone becomes very sleepy and then just sort of gradually, calmly, peacefully

stops breathing. this was not that kind of a death. >> doctor, i think this is sometimes i imagine very difficult for perhaps on a stand, but this was a case where she was ruling -- she was showing you what it isn't. i'm sure can be effective testimony. does it still make it difficult to exactly know what it was? >> you are given guidance because we separate cause of death from manner of death. all those causes of death that she ruled out are linked to manner. manner of death is always just five different conditions. homicide, accident, natural, indetermining, suicide. because it's a homicide, that rules out all those natural

conditions because what you want to say is the homicide stands on its own. there wasn't enough natural death picked up in an autopsy -- that wasn't enough natural chronic disease to attribute that death to natural causes. there is chronic disease, the coronary arteries. there is possibility of a contribution from fentanyl. but that is, like she said, accidental -- [ inaudible ] you do not take cause of death and say, it's 10% natural, it's 20% accident and it's 70% homicide. it has to be 100% homicide. she clearly taught us the chronic diseases that we cannot use. they are important.

those things can happen in an assault. in this case, the cause of death is restraint. >> the bottom line -- i want to see if i'm paraphrasing you correctly, doctor. what you are saying is, a lot of these things could have contributed to the idea that his heart might have been weaker and this or not, but without the intervening event of this -- of the knee on the neck and of how he was arrested, those other factors wouldn't have come into play? >> exactly. 100%, exactly. >> dr. gupta, i want you to take on the next part here. this gets at not just the idea that it was -- the defense is trying to say it was heart disease. take a listen.

>> this physiologic stress or physiological stress, can that be determined on autopsy? >> no. >> why is that? >> well, it's a chemical reaction. it's increased heart rate which, of course, we don't see at autopsy. it's increased chemicals that we don't -- can't test for at autopsy. none of it is anything that can be seen physically. >> we have a heart that is at least above average, right? needing more blood. we have a heart with an occluded right coronary artery, right? >> narrowed. >> narrowed. we have a heart that the left anterior descending artery also

had a 75% narrowing. let's assume you found mr. floyd dead in his residence, no police involvement, no drugs, right, the only thing you found would be these facts about his heart. what would you conclude to be the cause of death? >> in that very narrow set of circumstances, i would probably conclude that the cause of death was his heart disease. >> i guess i was surprised she took the hypothetical on that front. your analysis here, would you have answered the question the same way? >> i probably wouldn't. i respect dr. thomas for answering the question posed. a few things here. i beg forgiveness up front. number one, the defense here

unfortunately -- they are cherry picking data. if you look at the full expansion what have we know happened to mr. floyd, he had a pea arrest. i won't get technical. that was the arrhythmia he suffered. his heart stopped producing a pulse. why does that matter? it is associated with oxygen deprivation. when the heart stops beating and you have pea, when ems puts the leads on the chest and they see that, they don't feel a pulse, what you think of number one is, low oxygen or no oxygen in this case. sudden cardiac death, so we are clear -- the defense is trying to paint a picture that coronary arteries were narrow and because of adrenaline they got narrower and his heart was deprived of oxygen because he had a heart attack. there you go, he had the type of heart attack that was a sudden

heart attack. [ inaudible ] why does that matter? we know he had a pea arrhythmia. that's critical. it debunks this notion that he had a classical heart attack from a blood clot. that's not what happened. if they look at the full expansion of what happened -- this line of questioning would be completely irrelevant and not appropriate for the context or the broader context of what we know happened to mr. floyd. that's critical. quickly, i will say here, weighted prone positioning, 90 pounds on the back of somebody else lying on the street, that's different from prone position we use for covid in the icu. number one, the defense attorney was trying to draw false equivalents there. yes, people get prone when they get massage or in the icu.

they don't have weight on top. in prone portion in my view, especially weighted prone position is dangerous. the lung has 500 mimil -- [ inaudible ] >> we are shocked the defense attorney will cherry pick facts. that is largely what many defense attorney does across the board. glen, let's lift up a second bigger picture. look at yesterday and today. you have a prosecution that's clearly not crazy about the medical examiner's testimony that's coming up. have they done a good enough job in framing this medical examiner's testimony in as best

possible light as they can? >> yeah. the order of call of witnesses is really interesting, chuck. i think you hit the nail on the head. when i read the autopsy report of dr. baker many times, it raised as many questions for me as a former career homicide prosecuor as it answered. i prosecuted cases where i have put multiple medical examiners on the stand in my case in chief. what i always did was i called the medical examiner who performed the autopsy first. then i had other medical examiners supplement his or her testimony. when you look at the autopsy report of dr. baker, he says things like -- and i quote -- he found no life-threatening injuries. he also says that he found no injuries to the neck of george floyd either externally or internally. you know what? a defense attorney can make a lot of mischief with those kind of findings that are included in

an autopsy report. rather than put dr. baker on and have him to have explain all of this and then put other experts on after him to -- i hesitate to use the term, play cleanup, but they are putting all of the other experts on first to basically explain what the jury is going to hear from dr. baker and why all of it taken together is a criminal homicide. i have to give a shoutout to dr. tobin who in all of the expert witnesses i put on over the years, i don't know -- including dr. david fowler i put on. he was my expert in multiple cases. he is going to be the defense expert forensic pathology. he is very accomplished and a very strong witness. dr. tobin really gave the jury the one, two, three of the cause of death here. one was cardiopulmonary arrest,

heart and respirations stopped. what we don't get from dr. baker's autopsy is the number two, why did he suffer cardiopulmonary arrest? because of the low level of oxygen available to george floyd. and the three, what caused the low level of oxygen? the restraint that i would call unlawful restraint by derek chauvin and his fellow officers. he brilliantly gave the jury the one, two, three of george floyd's death. >> shaq, i want to go to you. you got a pool note. we learn a little bit something perhaps on how the jurors have been -- or perceived to be taken in the testimony. >> reporter: how we perceive them and how the two reporters in the room are perceiving their interactions and behavior. you were talking about the hypothetical from the defense attorney. according to the pool reporter,

there was a clear pattern when eric nelson came up and was asking those hypothetical questions and was asking about the fentanyl and the member amphetamine in george floyd's system, the pool reporter says only one juror was taking notes. the juror that's most aggressive in taking notes. when jerry blackwell came up and started redirect, the pool reporter says there were at least six jurors that picked up their pen and started taking notes at that -- in response to the cross-examination or redirection with the witness. you can take what you want from that. you see a different pattern in the note taking of the jurors. two notes from earlier today in the pool report that we heard earlier today. number one, there is a family representative for derek chauvin. that's something we haven't seen for a long time. they removed the chair that was allowed for a member of his family. we don't know who the family member is. it's a woman. the pool report says she's asian. we don't know much beyond that. we know this morning a juror was questioned about having possibly

some contact from the outside. the jurors are not see quested. they go home every night. she turned on the television, she saw an attorney and she turned off the television and then she said she got a text from her mother-in-law saying something to the effect, it was a bad day in court. she told the judge that. the judge says he believes her and they didn't take any action. no attorneys took any action beyond that. we know that there's some action that we see in the courtroom that isn't apparent on video. >> very interesting there. shaquille brewster on the ground in minneapolis. appreciate all of your time and expertise in sharing it with our audience. thank you all. msnbc will take you back to the trial when they come back from the lunch break. there will be more expert testimony. then the big witness today being the medical examiner. coming up, matt gaetz's possible legal issues pile up. a member of his party is calling

for his resignation. first, here is a look at life after lockdown. ♪♪ the thing about freedom is... freedom has no limits. there's no such thing as too many adventures... or too many unforgettable moments. there will never be too many stories to write... or too many memories to make. but when it comes to a vehicle that will be there for it all. there's only one. jeep. not everybody wants the same thing. there's only one. that's why i go with liberty mutual — they customize my car insurance so i only pay for what i need. 'cause i do things a little differently.

hey, i'll take one, please! wait, this isn't a hot-dog stand? no, can't you see the sign? wet. teddy. bears. get ya' wet teddy bears! one-hundred percent wet, guaranteed! or the next one is on me! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

clara didn't believe gain scent beads could make her sheets smell amazing days later. boy was she surprised! and the more nights that go by, the more surprised she gets. her husband is surprised too. gain scent beads

welcome back. we have more developments involving incidents of gun violence around the country amid a renewed focus in washington, d.c. in texas a suspect is in custody after a shooting yesterday. it left one person dead and five wounded. 40-year-old timothy smith is the person killed in the shooting. in south carolina, authorities are trying to search for a motive after they identified a former nfl player as the gunman who killed five, including a prominent doctor, who was

treating or had some relationship with the nfl player and two children before killing himself. the headlines come as president biden announced executive actions on guns yesterday. he acknowledged his power is limited. he said the second amendment is not absolute. we saw more than a handful of republicans accuse him as a gun grab yesterday. even though gun reform advocates saw the actions as modest. they called them important actions. the second amendment is absolute. anyone who says otherwise is a tyrant. somebody needs to tell her what scalia said about that. there was one republican who signalled an openness for reform, it was toomey. joining me is garrett haake. i think to me it's like -- you

want to read tea leaves, the language that elected republicans used yesterday in response -- and the enthusiasm with the language that they used, it indicates that we are farther apart from whatever a middle looks like than we were in 2013, 2015, 2017 at this point. is that fair? >> reporter: i think it may be. the political imperatives for republicans are that gun rights and the idea that a democratic president might be coming to take your guns, which is the language we saw in these releases yesterday and statements from lawmakers, that doesn't bear much resemblance to the orders, that is seen as safer ground for republicans. they would fight against a democratic overreach on gun reform than arguing against money for their own districts and states in the form of the infrastructure projects. it's a classic cultural issue here. the statement from toomey is

interesting. you can't do this with just him alone. you absolutely are not going to do anything in the senate that doesn't have him involved in it. i think for proponents who want something passed through this congress, his willingness to continue the discussions is a good start. we are nowhere near getting anything across the finish line as we start here in 2021. >> i want to play steve danes on this. i don't consider him -- you would say, montana, rural state. but he is not something i considered a bomb thrower in the past. listen to what he said. >> ghost guns sound scary. hobbyists that put together parts for firearms. that's not -- [ inaudible ] . it infringes on our rights. it infringes on law abiding citizens.

>> i can keep going on and on. in 1999, we used to accept the idea you should get a permit before you own a gun. it does seem as if the right has shifted to a very extreme position on the second amendment in a collective fashion. it's not just -- it's a growing faction of even mainstream republicans. >> reporter: chuck, it's part and parcel with the idea that mainstream republicanism got squashed during the trump years. there's a diminished sense to be a moderate republican on any issue. who and what you might consider moderate could provide cover for wanting to restrict gun rights in any way. this is not john boehner's republican party, it's not mitt romney.

his location matters in this case. there's not -- there are no moderate northeastern republicans anymore hardly to speak of. the group of people who might have said, if we band together, we can discuss this and protect ourselves from our own right flank doesn't really exist anymore. that's going to be a challenge. pat toomey is retiring. >> right. very quickly, matt gaetz, i guess the question i have is the one thing we haven't seen yet is a formal ethics filing against him over this. which would actually open up another investigation. this would be run by congress. i know we have had one resignation call. is he going to file an ethics complaint with that? >> reporter: it's a good question. right now, what we know about gaetz has come electric report -- has come from the fact that his friend had been indicted. we have not had any alleged

victims in any of this come forward. the fact that he hired two serious trial attorneys to head up his legal defense team. these are not people who go on fox news and defend you reputationally. these aren't people who sue people who you think are saying bad things about you. of these are serious criminal defense lawyers. i think that speaks to the fact that there's a lot -- gaetz's problems could potentially go deeper than an ethics probe in congress. >> the collateral damage is less concerning to washington represents but a bunch of tallahassee republicans who have eyes on being a national republican, including the governor, are the ones that have a lot to worry about with matt a look at the rise of violent domestic extremism and the threat it poses to our national security. t poses to our

national security. income plann. we look at how much you've saved, how much you'll need, and build a straightforward plan to generate income, even when you're not working. a plan that gives you the chance to grow your savings and create cash flow that lasts. along the way, we'll give you ways to be tax efficient. and you can start, stop or adjust your plan at any time without the unnecessary fees. talk to us today, so we can help you go from saving...to living. ♪ ♪ smooth driving pays off. saving is easy when you're in good hands. allstate. click or call for a quote today. new projects means new project managers.

allstate. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. the moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a short list of quality candidates from our resume database. claim your seventy five dollar credit, when you post your first job at indeed.com/home. (vo) nobody dreams in conventional thinking. it didn't get us to the moon. it doesn't ring the bell on wall street. or disrupt the status quo. t-mobile for business uses unconventional thinking to help you realize new possibilities. like our new work from anywhere solutions, so your teams can collaborate almost anywhere. plus customer experience that finds solutions in the moment. ...and first-class benefits, like 5g with every plan. network, support and value without any tradeoffs. that's t-mobile for business. at philadelphia, we know what makes the perfect schmear of cream cheese. the recipe we invented over 145 years ago and me...the world's best, and possibly only, schmelier. philadelphia. schmear perfection.

is your family ready for an emergency? you can prepare by mapping out two ways to escape your home, creating a supply kit, and including your whole family in practice drills. for help creating an emergency plan, visit safetyactioncenter.pge.com a little preparation will make you and your family safer in an emergency. a week's worth of food and water, radio, flashlight, batteries and first aid kit are a good start to learn more, visit safetyactioncenter.pge.com

welcome back. today democratic congresswoman and former cia alyssa slotkin is calling on the united states to label white supremacists overseas as foreign terrorists. this came after security warned that white supremacists will remain a threat to our country, and we know there is a global effort and movement. in the first episode of our new stream lg show, "press reports," we're taking a look at how extremism is moving out of the shadows and into the mainstream. she did the in-depth reporting featured in this week's "meet the press reports." morgan joins me now. every day there is something new

with this issue as we just noted with the congresswoman. this has sadly become a beef for you. >> that's right, chuck. the bottom line is that violent extremism has surging in this country, especially during the last six years, where now we see 60% of those plots and attacks during that time period carried out by the violent far right. but what's interesting, chuck, is the way these extremist idealogies have infiltrated our political system by trying to pass themselves off as mainstream. for example, i'd like to introduce you to chester doles. he's running for a county seat about an hour north of atlanta. he was a leader in the kkk and a member of the neo-nazi group, and he says he's changed. but if you really listen to his political idealogies, some aren't so sure. when did you come out are

racism, because you know you have in the past. >> the banner has always been the same, left wing radicalists. >> but the ku klux klan isn't against leftist radicals, they're against black people, jews. what do you believe now that you didn't believe then? >> it just depends on who is looking at it. when i've ever read anything like that, it just seemed like they were just pro heritage. >> the ku klux klan? >> well, in some forms. but i'm not here to defend them. that was 28 years ago, and i will not spend one more day from -- i did this last year. no more apologies. >> when i was looking at social media, you had put this picture here saying jodi vow was coming to speak at one of your rallies here. this is jody vow, a racist. to me this is a nazi hand gesture. then he posted here, get in, we're hunting judea, and he's

talking about jews. do you think he's a white supremacist? >> i wouldn't call him a supremacist. i know he's got some issues -- >> but he had already posted those things when you invited him. >> i wasn't aware of any of his other extreme radicalism. >> on your social media, these are the people following you with swastikas and white power signs. why are these people attracted to you and your platform? >> i don't know. maybe they're good people as far as being good american sit -- citizens. >> can you be a good citizen with white power? >> i don't think that's what i'm about. >> you were on the trail in 2016, 2018 and 2020. how much have you seen the

mainstreaming of these radicals showing up at mainstream political events? >> it's no doubt, chuck, that in the time period you mentioned, experts as well as people in these extremist movements said they were energized by former president trump. they felt like while he was in office, they had a guy, they had someone who would help perpetuate with a wink and a nod the beliefs that they also held. for example, chuck, chester doles, the man we just interviewed, texted my man in anticipation of airing, and he said about me that i was a dangerous mouthpiece of the biden administration, and if trump comes back, i will be the enemy in his eyes. but when or if trump or a figure like him comes in, people that are his political opponents will be rounded up and harmed.

>> i know you're aware of the death threats that donald trump churned up for many of us in the media. morgan radford, terrific reporting, and i can't wait to see what you do next, so thank you. by the way, the first episode of season 2 "meet the press reports" are ready to stream now on peacock. we'll have new episodes streaming at 8:00 p.m. on thursdays on "nbc news now" and of course it's on the next day. that does it for us this hour. msnbc's coverage of the trial will continue after the lunch break, and it's katy tur who will pick things up right after this lunch break. r this lunch break i talked to my doctor... and switched to... fewer medicines with dovato. prescription dovato is for some adults who are starting hiv-1 treatment or replacing their current hiv-1 regimen.

with... just 2 medicines... in 1 pill,... dovato is as effective as a 3-drug regimen... to help you reach and stay undetectable. research shows people who take hiv treatment as prescribed... and get to and stay undetectable... can no longer transmit hiv through sex. don't take dovato if you're allergic to any of its ingredients... or if you take dofetilide. hepatitis b can become harder to treat while taking dovato. do not stop dovato without talking to your doctor,... as your hepatitis b may worsen or become life-threatening. serious or life-threatening side effects can occur, including... allergic reactions, lactic acid buildup, and liver problems. if you have a rash and other symptoms of an allergic reaction,... stop taking dovato and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis b or c,... or if you are, may be, or plan to be pregnant. your doctor may prescribe a different medicine... than dovato if you plan to be pregnant or if pregnancy is confirmed during the first trimester. dovato may harm your unborn baby. use effective birth control... while taking dovato.

most common side effects are headache, nausea,... diarrhea, trouble sleeping, tiredness, and anxiety. so much goes... into who i am. hiv medicine is one part of it. ask your doctor about dovato—i did. saturdays happen. hiv medicine is one part of it. pain happens. aleve it. aleve is proven stronger and longer on pain than tylenol. when pain happens, aleve it. all day strong.

good afternoon, i'm katy