everything, from exactly what we're doing overseas, but also to the functioning of our own goth. does the dysfunction in our congress affect our ability to compete abroad is something we need to spend a lot of time and energy focussed on here in the next couple of months and years, frankly. thank you for getting up "way too early" on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. this week in covid history -- it's mid april, 2020, and americans are so over covid-19. >> you can't buy paint. you can't buy lawn fertilizer or grass seed or -- come on. >> yeah. come on. luckily trump is reopening america. >> the data suggests the nationwide we have passed the peak on new cases. our country has to get open. and it will get open. we have to get our country open, jeff. >> what metrics you will use to make that decision. >> the metrics right here. >> where there's certainly room for those up there, but not

everyone trusts the plan, like dr. grouchy. >> i think that's a bit overly optimistic. >> and the demon state governors. >> folks, that would kill people. it would absolutely kill people. >> and now for a counterpoint. >> you know what, staying at home leads to death also. >> yes, like if you're accidentally drink bleach. luckily trump can circumvent these nay sayers with something called twitter. sleek new gizmo to spread twitter bugs to all his supporters who eat them right up. >> fire grouchy. fire grouchy. >> look at these smiling faces. thank you, president trump. and your amazing metric system. this has been this week in covid history. [ cheers and applause ]. >> wow. never forget. never forget. >> weirdly funny but also painful because they're not old movie clips and made up little shows. that all happened in the last administration. good morning. welcome to "morning joe."

it is wednesday, april 14th. along with willie and me, we have the host of msnbc's "politic's nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. former u.s. senator now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill and white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. joe has the morning off. we have an avalanche of news coming at us this morning. and we're following all of it. including, major news expected today on the war in afghanistan with president biden set to announce a date to withdraw all american troops. it was another night of unrest and tension near minneapolis after the police shooting of daunte wright as the officer who pulled the trigger has since resigned. we're also learning more about the advanced warning capitol police received leading up to the january 6th insurrection,

including that officers were instructed by their leaders not to use their most aggressive tactics to hold off the mob. why? we're also following new reporting on the sex trafficking investigation into congressman matt gaetz that has his one-time ally flipped and is now working with prosecutors, sharing information about gaetz with prosecutors. and the fallout from the government's decision to recommend a pause in the use of the single dose johnson & johnson vaccine yesterday and, willie, why don't we start right there. that's a big one. >> a busy morning as you said. the issue behind the pause is that six recipients developed a rare blood clotting disorder in the brain within two weeks of vaccination. nearly 7 million doses of j&j have been administered in the united states to date. the move sparked many states to suspend the use of that vaccine. fda acting commissioner janet

wooddock stressed yesterday, quote, these events appear to be extremely rare. covid-19 vaccine is a top priority for the federal government, and we take all reports of adverse events following vaccination very slowly. just a moment, dr. anthony fauci will be our guest to discuss this. first, we're joined by the director of vaccine education center and attending physician in the division of infectious diseases at children's hospital of philadelphia. dr. paul offit, a member of the fda's vaccine advisory panel but was not part of the decision to recommend pausing the j&j vaccine. dr. offit, good morning. walk us through what this decision must have been like from the fda and the cdc. we're hearing from a lot of critics who say you have 6 cases out of 7 million, less than 1 in a million chance of this happening based on the available data, does that really outweigh the adverse effect of making people hesitant to go get the vaccine down the road. >> no, i'm sure this was a very

tough decision for the cdc and the fda. on the one hand it does look like this is real but it's rare. when you have the so-called thrombosis, a blood clot in a vein in your brain. and you know, that can cause serious and fatal problems. on the other hand, so can covid-19. and you know, if we scare people about getting not just the j&j vaccine but all vaccines, we have a problem because vaccines are our way out of this. today will be the key day. the advisory panel will vote on how to move forward here. they're going to make one of three decisions. they're either going to say i think that we should go forward with this vaccine. people need to understand this is a rare but real side effect or say since this is a phenomenon primarily of young people and especially young women, we'll limit its use regarding age or gender or say we have two other vaccines that don't have this problem. the pfizer, moderna vaccine, so we'll choose to remove it. i don't think that will happen.

but we'll see what happens today at the cdc. >> defenders of this move say this is quite literally why the fda exists to alert the public of potential dangers. is this the right call? we know so many people in this country are hesitant about the vaccine based on bad information frankly they've gotten online somewhere. do you think this was the right move? >> well, in a more rational world people would look at this and say, look, the cdc and fda really cares about safety and not just the relatively uncommon adverse events that happen in the preapproval trial or vaccine is given to millions or tens of millions people they care about safety and i can feel comfortable about the other vaccines that don't have a problem it was an extremely rare safety issue. there may be a general feeling that vaccines are unsafe and it would be a shame because we only have one way out of this pandemic. and that's vaccination.

and critical percentage of the population chooses not to be vaccinated, we're not going to reach levels of herd immunity. they're going to enable us to stall the spread of the virus. we have dr. fauci in a few minutes. but i want to ask both doctors this question. operation warp speed, the race for a vaccine. there was a lot said about how this was history in the making in terms of the incredible pace to which these companies came together to get a vaccine to the american people. is there any reason to believe that the speed involved in creating the vaccine perhaps has impacted quality? >> no. i think the size of these trial, 40,000 trial of pfizer, 33,000 trial of moderna is typical of any pediatric or adult vaccine. the safety follow up is typical of any vaccine. usually the serious side effects

occur within six weeks of the dose. it occurred within two weeks of a dose. the problem is that because it occurred so rarely, a study of 44,000 people which involved 22,000 people getting the vaccine is not likely to pick up an event that occurs in one in a million people. no, i don't think that's it. the only real difference between these trials and the way we would do trials for human papillomavirus vaccine 30,000 trial, that was a seven-year followup. here you had a several month followup and on the other hand you're not going to do two or three or four year study for a virus that killed 7,000 people this past year. >> why pause it? why pause it? >> well, so it's a pause. i think what they want to do the fda and cdc to see how extensive this is. are there other blood clot sites or intestinal blood clots. they want to gather their data and thoughtfully make a decision which will be made today. it is a pause. it's not an elimination of the

vaccine. you're right. has it scared people, yes? will it scare people to the point that many critical number won't take the vaccine, i hope not. >> dr. paul offit, thank you very much. again, dr. anthony fauci will join us in just a few minutes. sir, thank you very much. we want to turn quickly to the latest out of minnesota where the streets of brooklyn center were flooded with protesters again last night in the wake of the police shooting of daunte wright. police ordered protesters to disband more than an hour before the curfew began calling the gathering unlawful. that led to further confrontations as protesters threw rocks and launched fireworks at police officers who responded with gas grenades and flashbangs in an attempt to disperse the crowd. protesters earlier in the day were peaceful with activists calling for reform and justice. the curfew in minneapolis does not lift until 6:00 a.m. central time this morning.

what a day, willie. meanwhile, the minnesota police officer that shot and killed 20-year-old daunte wright over the weekend has resigned from the brooklyn center police force. her resignation letter reads, quote, i have loved every minute of being a police officer and serving this community to the best of my ability. but i believe it is in the best interest of the community, the department and my fellow officers if i resign immediately. 26-year veteran officer kim potter fatally shot wright during a traffic stop on sunday. earlier this week the city's police chief said he thought potter made a mistake by shooting wright when she meant to grab her taser instead. the mayor of brooklyn center says he hopes her resignation will help to relieve tensions in the city but declined to answer when asked if potter's resignation instead of being fired meant she could move to another police force or to collect a pension. >> you know, i'm hoping that this will help bring some calm to the community, although, you know, i think ultimately people want justice.

they want full accountability under the law. and so that's what we're going to continue to work for. we have to, you know, make sure that justice is served. justice is done. daunte wright, you know, deserves that. his family deserves that. >> mayor also announced police chief tim gannon also would be resigning. so, rev, let's talk about how this is playing out in minnesota right now with what we've seen from the resignation of the officer, the resignation of the police chief, the explanation that still defies belief to a lot of people that the officer thought that her gun actually was the taser despite all the training that she's had. where do you see this headed from here? and what's your message to everyone in minnesota this morning? >> i've talked to the father of daunte wright. and i've talked to his girlfriend who was there. >> yeah. >> and clearly everyone is saying that it is hard to even

imagine a 26 year veteran that doesn't know the difference in the weight and size of a gun and a taser. and that you hold one on the prominent side of your body and the other on the opposite side. so there's a lot of disbelief there. we will know probably maybe as early as today whether or not the prosecutor is going to try to bring charges of any kind in that regard. attorney benjamin crump, who is one of the attorneys for the family, flew into new york last week and will respond to that today. but i think that what really is underscoring here is that at the same time ten miles away you have the trial of the officer that killed george floyd. at the same time, you have in kenosha, wisconsin, the policeman that shot -- that was

filmed in the back this young man in kenosha, wisconsin, last year was returned to duty yesterday with no discipline. all of this compounds a real problem of police accountability in the country. so what we're seeing played out in the streets in minnesota and brooklyn center is really reflective of people around the country saying enough is enough. when are police held accountable at any level, whether it is a taser that they say is a mistake in brooklyn temple, brooklyn center, or whether it is knee on your neck in minneapolis or whether it is jacob blake in kenosha and whether it's breonna taylor louisville, all within the last six months during a pandemic. at what point do we stop? that's what the challenge i think is in front of the government and i think that's what's being reflected by many of us at different levels of the black community. >> you mentioned george floyd and the trial of officer

chauvin, the defense has now picked up and started its case. the prosecution put witness after witness after witness in front of the jury who said, including by the way officer chauvin's own supervisors, his police chief said it was a violation of policy. that's not what we teach in our use of force. doctors, cardiologists saying he died because he didn't have oxygen to his brain. what is your expectation of how this may play out? i think a lot of people are holding their breath right now saying, yes, the prosecution put out a good case, but we've seen this movie before. >> we have. and i am cautiously optimistic. you know, i talk with the family everyday. i've gone out two or three times. i'll be going out right after the convention and i said to them, i believe the case is strong, but i've seen strong cases before. and all i can do is hope and pray not for a victory but for the country to show that we have the capacity of holding people

accountable. if you have a man -- i think the thing that we have not looked at, willy, is that if you had a man that gave a $20 bill that was counterfeit, that obviously the person that he gave it to in the store said i don't know if he knew it was counterfeit, he went and sat in the car in the front of the store with enough time where the police were called and came. so, he wasn't running from anything. but even if he knew it was counterfeit, you would have walked up to him and said did you know this was counterfeit. do you have good money to pay for the pack of cigarettes? you wouldn't arrest him, less handcuff him and drag him to the ground? so the whole overreaction leads there was intent to do harm which ultimately led to his death. if that can't be prosecuted, what are we saying to everybody? >> yeah. and with frustration boiling over in the streets, claire mccaskill, overnight, obviously we have shown the video of the flashbangs into the crowds and

the cops trying to keep people who have stayed out past the curfew, but there was also really peaceful, really moving, really beautiful moments during the day where the family of george floyd and daunte wright held a news conference and they hugged and they stood out in the snow and mutually recognized the pain that each family was going through. and i just wonder, as the defense moves forward in the derek chauvin trial and you have a former california police officer talking about derek chauvin following protocol and another person really talking about how the crowd that day was causing problems and really making the case for chauvin, how are jurors not -- how are jurors kept completely blind to the

context that is happening in the air around them? >> they're not. now -- and by the way, i think one of the things we have to acknowledge, one thing that's really different in this trial than what has occurred in many, many trials across our country for decades, and that is the plethora of video evidence. not only did we have eyewitnesses that talked about what they saw and how this all went down, there is video from all these different angles. i think obviously the jury is smart enough to see that the crowd was not a danger to those officers in any way. and obviously neither was george floyd. i do think the shooting of the young man a few miles away a few days ago is really a gut check moment for police departments. here is what's really sickening about this, mika. you know why he had a warrant?

he had a warrant because he didn't get a notice for a hearing. you know what he was charged with? carrying a gun without a permit in america. are you kidding me? in most states you don't have to have a permit to carry a gun. so there is this thing that goes on where there are people in our communities that are being targeted by police officers and drug through a system that they never escape from. and it contributes to a cascading set of circumstances that hold them back in terms of their lives opportunities. and this is a good example of that in this instance, this young man paid the ultimate price for that. and that is his death. and i do think that everybody in america is going, wait a minute, this wasn't an armed robber, a rapist, a murderer, this was a man who didn't show up in court on a charge that in most states

wouldn't be a law. >> we'll continue this conversation in just a moments. we do want to go now because we have dr. fauci with us to the recommended pause in the johnson & johnson covid vaccine. joining us now is the director of the national institute of allergy and infectious disease and chief medical adviser to the president, dr. anthony fauci. good morning. thanks for being with us this morning. >> good morning. >> let's talk about the pause in the j&j vaccine the six cases of the blood clotting among the 7 million shots that have been given out, less than a 1 in a million chance based on the available data. can you help explain what's going into this decision, how we're weighing the six cases versus the vaccine hesitancy that it's sure to cause. >> well, the fda and the cdc made a decision based on an accumulating cases. small though they may be, they wanted to make sure they had all the information and the prudent thing was to say let's just stop. very well may be quite temporary, but they just want to take a look and see if they can gather more information or even

see if there are more cases that have gone unnoticed. the other reason to do it is actually an important reason. because if there are women out there who have been vaccinated who do get this really serious syndrome of clots in the brain and other parts of the body, they go to a physician, there's a message to the physicians out there that the natural thing that you would do to treat a clot would be to treat a person with an anti-coagulant like heparin. that would make things worse. so there were twofold reason. one, to just take a look at what's going on, that might just be a few days, a week or so and then make sure that people out there know how to treat this if, in fact, they encounter it. >> well, i understand that and that's the fda's job and it's clearly doing its job. but again with the six cases and i don't need to explain to you the context this comes in if you guys have gone out of your way for months encouraging people that it's safe to get these

vaccines, that we need herd immunity if you want to return to normal life, the vaccine is the answer. and there are so many people in this country, good faith, decent people who just say, boy, i don't know. i've heard about people getting sick and they read things online. so how do you weigh this if you're the cdc or fda, how do you make that decision when you know it's going to prevent a bunch of people from getting the vaccine down the road? >> you bring up a good point. but there's an other side to that story because much of the hesitancy that we encounter are people who wonder about the safety of a particular vaccine. i mean, i know i'm out there talking to people all the time. this, in fact, is a confirmation of how seriously we take safety. so rather than turning people off about it, if you pause it for a little while and said, you know, we're very concerned to make sure that what we put in your arm is safe, we wanted to take a few days, take a look at this, get more details about it

and then very likely i don't want to get ahead of the fda but very likely they'll say we looked at it and now we'll go back, maybe make some modifications. so to me, it's an argument for why you should get vaccinated because the system is working. the system that is trying to protect the american people is working, which is what triggered the fda and the cdc to do that. >> as you know unfortunately a lot of people don't read the fine print. j&j said there's no causal relationship established, we just want to make sure people are aware of this and stop and take a look and make sure there's no link to it. i heard it yesterday. did you hear the j&j thing if you're a woman between 18 and 48, you might get blood clotting, this woman died, another woman is in critical condition. how do you fight back against that kind of information which is out there and people will be scared? >> right. you try to be as honest and transparent as you possibly can be. and tell people the facts. which we're doing right now when we're having this conversation.

you're absolutely right. this is an extremely rare event. there are six people in approximately 7 million that's less than one per million. but because of an abundance of caution, they just want to make sure that everything they do is geared towards the safety of the american public. i think that should encourage people. >> dr. fauci, jonathan lemire with the associated press is with us. jonathan? >> good morning, dr. fauci. good to see you again. as you well know, the johnson & johnson vaccine was highly touted because it is just one shot. it can be stored at normal temperatures. and it was being viewed as a place as a vaccine that could really be used in rural areas, poor areas, harder to reach areas, both in the united states and then, of course, in the developing world. we're seeing poor countries really struggling right now with the virus. so can you walk us through just the timetable now. when should we expect a decision from the fda? what would that entail? and then when would we see potentially the johnson &

johnson vaccine start going back into people's arms? >> well, what the fda and the cdc said that this would be a matter of days to weeks rather than weeks to months. so i think you're going to be hearing about a decision of the way forward really relatively soon. what are the options? the options are come back and say we looked at it. nothing there. not anymore than you would expect in the general population and go right back to what you were talking about before. or they may look and say, you know, we still have some concerns. we would like to restrict this to a certain group. whatever that group might be. or they may be saying, which i doubt very seriously based on this. no, you shouldn't give it anymore. i think one of the first two would be likely but then again you don't want to get ahead of the fda or the cdc. they're looking at the data. i'm not. but i can tell you that's likely what one of the three possibilities are. >> so, dr. fauci, in closing,

just your words earlier in the interview, the pause is because we want to make sure what we put in the arms of the american people around the world even is safe. so what about the people who have taken the johnson & johnson vaccine? what's the advice for them? what's the reassurance for them? how should they be feeling this morning? >> well, the first reassurance is to do what i just said a moment ago and that is this is an extraordinarily rare event. less than 1 in a million. it occurred in restricted bracket of time, like between 6 and 13 days. if you had it a month or so ago, i wouldn't think about it. if you've had it within the last few days to a week, again, you shouldn't worry about it, but just stay heads up for symptoms like headache, abdomen pain, chest pain and things like that. >> all right. dr. anthony fauci, thank you so much as always for coming on the show this morning. we will see you again soon. and still ahead on "morning joe," more on today's expected

announcement from president biden that he is withdrawing combat troops from afghanistan by september 11th. richard haass joins us to explain why he's disappointed in the move. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.

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he's still with you. he's still in your heart. losing a brother, sister, mom, dad, it's like losing a piece of your soul. but it's buried deep. but it comes back. >> that was president biden paying tribute to the u.s. capitol police officer william evans who was killed earlier this month when a man rammed his car into him and another officer outside the capitol. his casket dripped in an

american flag was brought to the capitol rotunda yesterday. an 18-year veteran of the force, evans is the fourth capitol officer to ever lie in honor at the u.s. capitol. we're going to have more on that very emotional ceremony later on on "morning joe." meanwhile, we're learning more about the advanced warnings that capitol police received leading up to the insurrection on january 6th. according to a new inspector general's report reviewed by "the new york times," police were warned three days before the violent attack, including a potential for violence in which, quote, congress itself is the target. the report found that officers were instructed by their leaders not to use their most aggressive tactics to hold off the mob, such as stun grenades. according to the times, the report notes several issues specifically tied to the forces

civil disturbance unit which specializes in handling large groups of protesters. it found that the unit was, quote, operating at a decreased level of readiness as a result of a lack of standards for equipment. and fostered a culture that decreased operational readiness. the inspector general also notes that officers responding to the riot used protective shields that had been stored in a trailer without climate control and therefore, quote, shattered upon impact. the report will be the center of a capitol hill hearing tomorrow. claire, i don't even know where to begin. it sounds like two things going on here. number one, just a growing lack of preparedness, kind of things falling apart over time. but secondly, this is the part

that worries me as it pertains to what happened on january 6th, the difference in response to, quote, trump supporters, i put quotes around that, don't know what that means but sort of you can imagine because they were there what it looks like, as opposed to a black rights matter protest coming toward the capitol. it's as if they had a different reception. >> yeah. i really think that this inspector's general report should do a few things. one, it should give a road map to congress on questions that must be answered. it is not good enough to say that they were told by their leaders not to be as prepared as they need to be. what leaders? who? who are these people? make sure that they no longer work there because that was a tremendous mistake in judgment. based on what this report lays out, they knew that there was all kinds of chatter, there were

maps of the capitol, there were talk about it being war and bringing your weapons. this was a complete abject failure of law enforcement to prepare for that that they had notice of. let me take a second to give a shoutout to the inspector's general community. i don't think americans realize the work they do. they are tremendously important. they are the eyes and ears, independent eyes and ears for taxpayers in our government. and this is a great example of where they can really make a difference. i hope that joe biden moves quickly to fill all the inspector's generals vacancies there are and they get the support and independence they need to do their jobs because this is an example. if it weren't for this inspector general, they would already be turning the page and thinking that they had fixed everything. and it unleashed a whole new level of incompetence at this police department. and i know there's moral issues, but you got to get things fixed

before you can start building moral. >> there's a lot of people in washington who would like to turn the page, but it looks like that won't happen now. let's turn to foreign policy approaching the 20-year anniversary of the september 11th attacks, president biden is set to announce a full withdrawal of u.s. troops from afghanistan. announcement expected today, according to a senior white house official who says the president has been mulling the decision for weeks. as part of a trump-era deal with the taliban, the biden administration says it will start pulling some of the 2,500 troops still in afghanistan by may the 1st. the rest withdrawn before the september 11th anniversary. president biden's decision comes after a three-month policy review where it was determined that the united states could address any threat from afghanistan without having a constant military presence in the country. the u.s. will, however, still maintain military assets there to counter any threats of terrorism. senior administration official says, quote, the president deeply believes that in contending with the threats and challenges of 2021, as opposed

to those of 2001, we need to be focussing our energy on those threats and challenges that are most acute for the united states and that doing that requires us to close the book on a 20-year conflict in afghanistan. so jonathan lemire, this is not a terribly popular idea with a lot of military leaders in the country who believe there need to be some kind of footprint there in afghanistan going forward the way there is in korea, the way there is in germany. so how did the president come to this decision? >> you're certainly right, willie. there are deep divides on this decision. and across the political spectrum foreign military leaders who criticized it certainly republicans, no surprise there, even a few moderate democratic senators spoke out saying they cast doubt on the wisdom of this decision. but the review made by the president and his team and those at the pentagon were that this was time. of course the u.s. has been there for 20 years. they know there is risk here, that there are some gains and

human rights made in afghanistan, women's rights, that could be rolled back depending on who fills the vacuum with the americans departing. the overall sense from the white house this was an intractable situation and it was time to pull them home. that the gains there -- that they were risking just being stuck in inertia, it would indeed be a forever war and more american lives would be lost and very little progress would be made. and also, to underscore the purpose of why we're there in the first place. that's why the president and we'll hear from him today. he'll outline more about his decision making has chose september 11th to be the date to have these troops home, remembering that, of course, it was the terror attacks on that day nearly 20 years ago that led to the u.s. invasion there. and after he delivers his speech today, he's heading to arlington national cemetery to pay a tribute to the war debt including those killed on the war on terror.

and as a symbolic gesture, he believes this is the mission. this is why we're in afghanistan, but it's time to bring them home. but aides around him will be nervously watching what comes next. >> let's dig into this decision from the president, author of the book "the world a brief introduction" richard haass. good morning. it's good to see you. >> good morning. >> yesterday you called this decision, quote, disappointing. you said these kind of decisions should not be based on a calendar but based on the conditions on the ground in afghanistan. i think a lot of people watching right now would say, my gosh, we've been there for 20 years. president biden is right. it's time to go home. explain why you're disappointed. >> well, i think there's the risk that afghanistan again emerges as an important venue where terrorists operate. and i think there's the near certainty that it will be a human rights tragedy. that anyone who worked with the united states will find himself or herself vulnerable to the taliban and also raises questions about america's willingness to stand by our friends and allies.

look, the president is right on one thing, willie, the conditions of success that either peace or military victory were not going to be realized any time soon, if ever. people like me were saying the definition of success in afghanistan should simply be the avoidance of the fall of the government and again it's reemergence as a terrorist venue and we should have been able, we should be able to accomplish that at a modest cost. in this case, 2,500 troops, thank god there hasn't been a combat fatality in afghanistan for something like 14 months now. and long-term economic and military aid. so i think in the short run, yes, we'll save a little. but not a whole lot. the medium and long-term risk is what happens in afghanistan. this is a decision, which the president made, again, based more on calendars than conditions, people like me sit back and say any savings risk being overwhelmed by

developments in that country. >> a fair question a lot of people might ask, when will the conditions be good? when will the troops ever come home from a place like afghanistan if we're waiting for the conditions to be right? >> it's the right question. and the answer is possibly never, willie. and korea the united states has had troops parked for 70 years. we've had troops in europe that long. so i can imagine a situation if we think afghanistan is an important enough venue to make sure that terrorists don't emerge, there's nothing magic about 2,500 troops but we would have a small footprint there, possibility of going in with special forces if we needed them. again, i don't think it's realistic for us to define success to turn afghanistan into switzerland. it's more what we avoid. it's not a very satisfying answer. i get it. but i think sometimes we have to be prepared for those sorts of commitments. the danger is we pull out now, the government does fall, which i think sooner or later is more

likely than not or loses control of most of the country, what then? near term looks very ugly and does anyone really trust the taliban to police the countries so groups like isis and al qaeda don't set up shop again? what then? that's what we have to think about. it's an unsatisfying situation. there's no solution here. what we're talking about is what sort of insurance premium we ought to be paying against certain possibilities. >> the no solution part of this is the frustration to this debate as it's really gone on for years now. richard, as there's now the troops coming home from afghanistan in the coming months, there's a build up of troops being announced in germany. so let's talk about russia and potential meeting between biden and putin. what are your thoughts on that? >> look, i've never thought diplomacy is a favor we bestow on anybody. diplomacy is a tool of national security.

we tugt be talking to vladimir putin. we ought to be talking to xi jinping in china. right now the russians for no reason are massively mobilizing troops against ukraine. it's only, what, seven or so years, mika, since the russians took crimea, since they went in in a pretext into eastern ukraine. what we ought to do is discourage that. the answer is not american military intervention. i do think we ought to be looking at large scale military help for ukraine, send them what -- much more equipment that they need and we ought to be telling mr. putin, if you do this sort of thing, here is the price you will pay with sanctions and the rest. and if you don't do these things and if you end up on a more responsible path, here is the potential upside to you. >> all right, richard haass, thank you very much for being on this morning. willie? >> rev, we were talking about your big event, summit, national action network, headlined by the president of the united states. let's listen to a few of his

taped remarks. >> hey, rev. i wish we could be together in person, but i do want to congratulate you on 30 years of national action network, thank you for your friendship, your partnership and most of all your courageous advocacy through these years. this organization has always been an essential voice but never more essential than it is today. upholding and advancing the security and health and well being, dignity and possibilities of all black americans. my american jobs plan will make generational investments in rebuilding america, delivering good jobs, equity and opportunity to black neighborhoods that never seem to get dealt in on the american dream. replacing every lead drinking water pipe in america so you never have to worry about another flint. delivering high pedointernet access to every american home and building an economy that sees values and pays our care

givers so many of whom are black women. we have so much work to do. >> so rev, when all your chapters assemble today, some in person, some virtually today for this summit, there's so much going on. there's some obvious themes that you'll be discussing. but what are the broad strokes of what will be at the center of your conversations today. >> well, central will clearly be dealing with the george floyd policing act, justice and policing act that we want to see the senate pass, how we move that forward. our chapters will be coming just the chapter leaders because of covid-19, but there will be thousands on virtually will hear the president who has taped those remarks to open us up. we'll hear from attorney general garland, nancy pelosi and chuck schumer and others over the next four days. and we have a big night. every year we honor people in the name of dr. king. and i want to say that the main award tonight is going to

rashida jones. >> our boss. >> president of msnbc, and i think it has been too quiet the achievement for a black woman to be the president of a major cable station. martin luther king, iii, and his family is coming in despite covid to present her the award tonight. we also honoring others but she's getting the main award. but we're very proud of the fact that in our times, as dr. king's granddaughter said, she's seen a black woman at the helm of one of the major cable stations and influencers in the society. something he would have been proud of. >> it's not quiet in this building. we love rashida. i'm glad you're telling the rest of the country about it. rev, congratulations. that's great. have a great summit and you'll hear from the president of the united states as well today. rev, thanks so much. coming up next, a former ally of matt gaetz is said to be providing information to federal investigators about the congressman's conduct, "the new york times" michael schmidt joins us with his latest

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now to the latest in the sex trafficking investigation into republican congressman matt gaetz. two sources briefed on the matter tell the new york times that the former florida official whose case entangled gaetz has been cooperating with federal officials since last year, quoting from the times, joel greenberg, a one-time county tax collector disclosed to investigators that he and mr. gaetz had encounters with women who were given cash or gifts in exchange for sex. the people said. the justice department is investigating the involvement of the men with multiple women who were recruited online for sex and received cash payments. and whether the men had sex with a 17-year-old in violation with sex trafficking statutes.

mr. greenberg, the times continues, who is said to have met the women through websites that connect people who go on dates in exchange for gifts, fine dining, travel and allowances and introduce them to mr. gaetz could provide investigators with first-hand accounts of their activities. the times quotes the two sources as saying greenberg began speaking with investigators with once he realized that the government had overwhelming evidence against him and that his only path to leniency was if he flipped on the congressman. gaetz has denied ever paying for sex and a spokesman for the congressman says the story, quote, has now turned into a general fishing exercise about vacations and consensual relationships with adults. nbc news has not confirmed the reporting from the times, but let's bring in "the new york times" reporter who has been on this story from the beginning. michael schmidt.

he's an msnbc national security analyst, also with us, white house correspondent for politico, and co-author of "the play book, eugene daniels. he's also an msnbc contributor and has been following a certain angle of this story as well. michael schmidt, i'll start with you. i think my biggest question looking at this sort of from 20,000 feet is how credible a witness, how credible a flipper, is joel greenberg given all the things he is accused of doing, it assumes his get a little less jail or rather than get out of jail free card is to flip on gaetz, but how trustworthy is he? >> so all those who flip in a federal investigation have some sort of credibility problems. and that is the job of the government to sort of

rehabilitate them in the jury's eyes and use them as a witness in another prosecution. greenberg has a particularly large problem on his credibility, even compared to other cooperators. he's been indicted with 32 different charges. it's a range of criminality. lots of different things from corruption to stocking to fraud, to sex trafficking. and there is also a history that he has of continuing to break the law even after he was indicted. he's been charged with trying to defraud the small business administration for pandemic relief money even after he was first charged in june of 2020. so, there's a lot of work there to be done if the government wants to use him. and greenberg has to be fully forthcoming and truthful with investigators. and if he is to make any sort of mistake in that area, he could

jeopardize any type of deal. >> yeah. and he's in a lot of trouble. it does make you wonder like, what was matt gaetz doing hanging out with someone like that right there and then? it's a question of credibility and making good choices. eugene daniels, the thing that joel greenberg could produce for investigators is evidence, like cell phone records, information that proved what they're investigating. what angles are you looking at in terms of actual records that perhaps matt gaetz could be pinned down on? >> yeah. what we're reporting at politico is that it became very clear that he was becoming a subject of a serious investigation that was ratcheted up because they seized his iphone after executing a search warrant. this happened last year. they also took his former

girlfriend's phone. gaetz changed his number in december. so all of this has been moving kind of rather rapid pace from greenberg to gaetz. as you said, gaetz has denied paying for sex. he's also denied ever being with someone who is underage. but investigators are obviously doing a lot of the work to figure out what's going on, whether it's gaetz or greenberg. and. >> yeah. >> i cover politics mostly, so politically right now he seems pretty safe, which is surprising. and it's in the post-trump era, a scandal is not for your conference sometimes isn't as bad especially on the side of republicans. they kind of acknowledge that it's rough for him, but mccarthy, scalise and liz cheney have been measured and restrained and said they're waiting until an investigation happens or an investigation is over. >> right. to see what's there.

claire, i'm curious, i have a question for you and i'm sure you have a question for our panelists, but i just wonder what you make of matt gaetz still in his job, absolutely defiant about it, yelling at reporters, you know, blaming it on everybody else that he's really a victim. and what do you make of the response around him by fellow members of congress and in the senate? >> yeah, it's very trumpy. this whole thing is very, very trumpy. don't believe what you see. believe the lies that come out of my mouth. and those members of congress know that he was showing them pictures on the floor of the house of naked women. i mean, who does that? and why aren't his colleagues stepping up to police this kind of sleaziness? and michael, i've got a question for you on timing. what are your sources saying about the timing of this?

clearly they have all of this physical evidence now. they can tie gaetz to activities and payments. what is -- what are they waiting on in terms of taking a potential case to a grand jury? or do you even know if a grand jury is sitting on this case yet? >> so, i think that we are some time away. obviously predicting the future of a federal investigation is really, really hard. but what we know is that greenberg is going to plead. his lawyer and the top prosecutor on this case spoke about this last week and said they expect that to happen in the next coming weeks. so that will sort of be the next marker, guide post here that will help shore up the government's investigation to some extent. and the question from there is how is the government going to go about this?

is the government going to try and bring in other cooperators? are they going to try to find other people around gaetz? or are they going to go directly to charging gaetz? there are several other individuals in florida state politics who are racked up in this. names that to us at the national level don't really mean a lot. but these are potential witnesses, potential cooperators and folks the government has and is going to try to assert some leverage on. so, this could take a lot longer than, you know, certainly i think kevin mccarthy would like it to. we have sort of come along here in reporting on it. and it's not clear sort of how early it is. indeed they had been investigating joel greenberg for looks like a year. but, you know, the federal government in an investigation like this is going to move slowly because they know if they ever end up in court against gaetz they're going to be facing a high-end defense lawyer and

someone who will be trying to bring politics and his alliances with donald trump into the courtroom as he tries to cling to anything to stop him from going to prison. >> okay. eugene daniels, michael schmidt, thank you so much for your reporting on this. we'll continue to follow this. and eugene, before you go, politico has the weekly polls with morning consult. and this one is looking at the popularity of president joe biden's executive order on gun safety. what are they telling us? >> yeah. first of all, his overall support is still at 59%, just in general. 64% of voters tell us they support stricter gun laws in the united states. 63% of voters support biden's executive order to limit the spread of ghost guns, these guns that you can put together at home. and even plurality of american

voters kind of somewhat strongly support this, about 46%. biden's executive orders to increase regulations stabilizing braces so that can turn a pistol into a sort of rifle. that would ordinarily require stricter government controls and on background checks, 83% strongly or somewhat support background checks that includes 53% of republicans. these numbers are, as you know, mika, huge for any kind of popularity in the united states. so the question now is what does congress do? will congress especially the senate still move to actually do something especially on something like background checks. obviously joe biden asked them to pass things that have already passed in the house. will they do it? it's hard to see based on what we know about congress and how the senate has operated. and more importantly, we're also having play book today the d10, ten moderate republicans who seem willing to work more with joe biden, they're a bit

perturbed with him than we knew they were so that's at the top of playbook as well. >> wow. thank you, eugene. willie? >> the fallout from the food and centers for disease center to recommend a pause in the use of single dose johnson & johnson vaccine. after six recipients developed a rare blood clotting disorder in the brain within two weeks of vaccination. nearly 7 million doses of j&j have been administered in the u.s. to date. the move sparked many states to suspend the use of the vaccine temporarily. all six cases were with women between the ages of 18 and 48. one woman died, another hospitalized in critical condition. fda acting commissioner janet woodcock stressed yesterday, quote, these events appear to be extremely rare. however, covid-19 vaccine safety is a top priority for the federal government and we take all reports of adverse events following vaccination very seriously. in a statement to nbc news

yesterday, johnson & johnson said, quote, at present, no clear causal relationship has been established between these rare events and the johnson covid-19 vaccine. which is the j&j vaccine. the drug maker also disclosed the blood clot cases being investigated now by european health authorities last hour on "morning joe," dr. anthony fauci explained the reasoning that went into the decision to pause the j&j vaccine. >> the fda and the cdc made a decision based on accumulating number of cases, small they may be, they wanted to make sure we have all the information. the prudent thing let's stop. very well might be quite temporary. they want to look to see if they can gather more information or see if there are more cases that have gone unnoticed. the other reason to do it is actually an important reason, because if there are women out there who have been vaccinated who do get this really serious

syndrome of clots in the brain and other parts of the body, that if they go to a physician, there's a message to the physicians out there that the natural thing that you would do to treat a clot would be to treat a person with anti-coagulant like heparin. that is contraindicated. that would make things worse. twofold reason. one, just take a look at what's going on. that might just be a few days, a week or so. and then make sure that people out there know how to treat this if, in fact, they encounter it. >> let's bring in president and ceo of bio technology innovation organization, dr. michelle mcmurray. dr. murray-heath, always great to see you. >> good morning. >> you heard dr. fauci explaining the reason behind a pause from the fda and the cdc, a pause that became a real pause yesterday when the shots stopped going into arms. what's your reaction to it? did they make the right call here? >> they most definitely made the right call.

to me this is evidence that the system we have in place is doing exactly what it was designed to do. and that is to be able to detect even extremely rare adverse events and to act on them. we're detecting in this situation a literally one in a million occurrence. that's incredibly reassuring to know that we have that type of sensitivity in picking up any issues and giving us an opportunity to pause, take stock, examine the data and then determine the best course forward. >> dr. mcmurray-heath, how do you take into consideration what we all know is out there, this hesitancy already to take the vaccine? what impact might this have? does the fda, cdc take that into consideration? >> well, they must. public health leaders in this country, they are always weighing the benefits versus the risk. and the vaccine hesitancy is something we have definitely all been working to breakthrough. we want people to understand how vaccines work and to have

confidence going forward. and let's be clear, the vaccines that we have out there have been incredibly effective. the pfizer and moderna vaccines have now gone into over 100 million people. this is showing us that we have a system that is very, very effective and people need to be part of this recovery. another very important thing to think about is to be aware that with any drug, with any vaccine, there's always the very rare opportunity or possibility of an adverse event. you want to be a part of that reporting system. so i encourage everyone who is either had a vaccine or covid or who is about to download the cdc app vsafe which is allowing our public health officials to track any adverse events. and then also check out covid vaccine facts.org. really understand how the vaccines work and realize that it is very important for recovery that we all take vaccines when we have the opportunity to do so.

and let our health officials make sure that they are protecting the safety of the supply. >> dr. mcmurray-heath, i'm just curious had all these vaccines but this vaccine gone through the regular cdc/fda process instead of the sped up process because of this pandemic and how it was botched in the first year of it, is it possible that this would have been discovered before it was delivered to a full audience of people? >> so, let's break that down, mika, because i think you raise this very important. the emergency use authorization that was used in the covid vaccines is not unusual fda process as a former fda official i can say it is used quite often when we have a public health emergency which covid still is. it simply says that we're going to try to weigh those benefits and risks and get those new drugs and vaccines out to people

as soon as we deem them safe and then we're going to watch them exceedingly closely. that's what you're seeing in this case. extreme level of pharmaceutical individual lens watching the new products as with we go out into the product. we have many vaccines working incredibly well and over 100 million people and the ability on top of that to detect exceedingly rare events. you would not detect a 1 in a million occurrence in any clinical trial. this is always something we have to be aware of and vigilant about and our health officials are doing just the right thing in being -- paying very close attention to the data. >> dr. michelle-mcmurray-heath. we have got a lot of news to cover this morning. we'll turn now to what we're learning about the advanced warnings capitol police received leading up to the january 6th insurrection. according to a new inspector general's report reviewed by

"the new york time," police were warned three days before the violent attack including a potential for violence in, which, quote, congress itself is the target. the report found that officers were instructed by their leaders not to use their most aggressive tactics to hold off the mob. such as stun grenades. according to the times, the report notes several issues, specifically tied to the forces civil disturbance unit which specializes in handling large groups of protesters. it found that the unit was, quote, operating a a decreased level of readiness. result of equipment and fostered a culture that decreased operational readiness. the inspector general also notes that officers responding to the riot used protective shields that have been stored in a trailer without climate control and therefore, quote, shattered upon impact. the report will be the center of

a capitol hill hearing tomorrow. the ap's jonathan lemire is still with us. joining the conversation we have nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early" kasie hunt. msnbc contributor mike barnicle and chief white house correspondent for the new york times, peter baker. there's a lot to ask here, peter, i'll start with you. but i would love to hear kasie's point of view on the capitol hill as well, but who would say listen, as the capitol hill is a focus on an attack, say let's hold back on stun guns and all the things that really keep people back because you could see that happening in realtime that there was kind of a confusion on the ground on the steps of capitol and on the grounds before leading up to the steps at the capitol where gates were sort of being opened for these people. there was no message, there was no clarity of the threat.

>> yeah. clearly forces that were in charge, security at the capitol, did not anticipate what was about to happen. they didn't think through the consequences of the crowd that was gathering there and what they would do about it. remember, though, of course the context of this. this is only a few months after what happened lafayette square, right, the previous summer, where police were accused of overusing forceful measures, including stun grenades and flash grenades and pepper spray and the like to clear a peaceful crowd outside of the white house. and so i think there's a great senitiity january 6th was approaching on military and police forces about not seeming to overdo it and not playing into the hands of a president who had called for, you know, more military in the streets. and rather than thinking through what could happen as we saw happen, they were fighting the last war in effect. they wanted to be careful not to

be perceived as overdoing. they allowed the most horrific attack on our capitol in two centuries. >> kasie, obviously this report yesterday and officer billy evans lying in honor, obviously he was not a victim of the attack on january 6th, but a reminder of what capitol police have been through just in the last few months just in this year. is there a renewed focus because of this report? are you seeing that on capitol hill? in many ways republicans would like to turn the page on january 6th. many of them have down played over the last couple of months. but will there be this commission? will there be this investigation? does the ig report renew some of that focus? >> well, it certainly renews the focus and puts a spotlight on the leadership of the capitol police has been a source of real frustration and anger from rank and file police officers who really the moral among the u.s. capitol police is so incredibly

low and that was really driven home by the attack that killed officer billy evans. and it was just heart breaking yesterday to see those two children, abigail and logan, clutching those stuffed animals, their teddy bears. the president, you know, at one point stepping down, picking up that model of the capitol to give it back to abigail. i think it really just hit all of us who have been part of the capitol community and i think the nation very, very hard and showed what these men and women of the capitol police have been through. i think the real challenge here and jonathan lemire, i'll go to you on this, because the politics of this i think for people who were there certainly i've covered congress for a very long time, watching how quickly this became a political issue, that republican members of congress in particular were

willing to say, okay, we're just going to keep moving forward. we're going to complain about the way that this commission potentially is being set up. there's partisan infighting over the scope of the investigation into this. it seems incredibly remarkable to me that the capitol could suffer its worst attack in two centuries, essentially, and the members of that very body could do nothing but we may end up in that situation. >> yeah, kasie. how quickly it became a political issue and how quickly it became a partisan issue. it is extraordinary. we're only a few months out from january 6th. and the images from that day, the more we see them, the more we learn about what happened, it becomes more harrowing, more terrifying. it's stunning that there wasn't frankly a greater loss of life that some elected officials terrible things could have happened to them in live public view had mob, protesters and rioters not taken wrong turns and without acts of heroism from

those in our capitol police officers. but what we have seen since after a few days of anger from republicans, democrats alike how quickly the gop has tried to turn the page and down play what happened. we're seeing the extreme of this, of course, is former president trump but also senator ron johnson who has claimed that, you know, these were patriots. these were just americans. that his life, that he never felt in danger while in there, that he would have felt far more at risk had these been black lives matter protesters. how other republicans, senate and house alike, have really down played the severity of what happened there, suggesting it just got out of hand, what was largely a peaceful protest. well, that's not clear. it is clearly not that. this was a riot. this was an insurrection. people died and many more could have. and i think we are seeing here some real disbelief from democrats who still want to forge forward with a commission like this, certainly the white

house supports it as well, but it has stalled. and republicans seem to just adopt this as yet another part of their big lie in terms of election fraud which didn't happen and now try to down play the severity of the insurrection as well. >> here is some of yesterday's ceremony for 18-year veteran of the u.s. capitol police force, officer william evans. the fourth capitol officer to ever lie in honor. >> i didn't know billy, but i knew billy. i grew up with billy. my prayer for all of you is that a day will come when you have that memory, and sends a smile before you bring a tear to your eyes. i promise you it's going to come. just takes a while. takes a while. but when it comes, you'll know because he's still with you.

he's still in your heart. loing a son, mother, brother, sister, mom, dad, it's like losing a piece of your soul. but, it's buried deep. but it comes back. >> his name will always be on our lips and his memory in our hearts. and that the president of the united states is picking up one of your distractions. ♪ like a bridge over troubled water ♪ ♪ i will lay me down ♪ ♪ lay me down ♪

>> mike barnicle, those images of the little girl trying to help her mother in her tears, it says it all. >> you know, mika, her father, officer billy evans, his death was part of the residue of january 6th. he was standing in front of a barricade because the capitol police was unalert, had been unalert, full alert, since january 6th. and the fact that we don't know exactly what happened in detail on january 6th, is both a portrait of incompetence as well as a portrait of negligence. the idea that there hasn't been established a commission, an independent commission to do a

forensic review, a forensic autopsy of exactly what happened that day, and why re-enforcements that were so close by, standing by, were not activated almost immediately. we don't know why. we don't know what phone calls were made from members of congress to one another. we don't know really what occurred during phone calls from the capitol to the pentagon and to the metropolitan police department. we need a fixed statutory bound authority, a commission to study this. just like the 9/11 commission. and it should have one clear objective at the beginning of it. no politicians could serve on this commission. know elected representatives from either the house or the senate, are truly independent fact-finding commission to provide answers to the evans family and all of the other families who were affected by

what happened on that day and that day was a huge, huge stain on the history of america and certainly the history of the past three or four years in politics. >> for sure. we want to move now to a new report from the u.s. intelligence community that finds other world powers, not terror groups, posed the biggest threat to national security. intelligence officials say china, north korea, iran and russia now represent the biggest dangers to the u.s. this marks a major shift from recent years where groups like al qaeda and isis topped the list. the new assessment warns that beijing, moscow, teheran and pyongyang have demonstrated the capability and intent to advance their interests at the expense of the united states and its allies despite the pandemic. maybe because of it. and the warning comes as

president biden is set to announce a full withdrawal of troops from afghanistan by september to coincide with the 20th anniversary of the september 11th attacks. top security officials are expected to testify before the senate intelligence committee today. willie? >> let's bring in the former secretary of homeland security under president obama to talk about all this, jeh johnson. mr. secretary, good to see you this morning. let's start with afghanistan and the announcement we're expecting to hear from president biden today before the 20th anniversary of the september 11th, almost 20 years since that october day when the first troops set foot in the country, that they'll be coming home, all of them. what's your reaction to that and what do you think are the implications of the global threat assessment? what does it mean from the threat of terrorism from that part of the world? >> willie, first time i visited afghanistan when i was general counsel of the defense department in 2009, there were

things that struck me. one, it's a mountainous terrain. it is largely ungoverned space. very tribal. and the taliban basically takes the attitude that we may have the watches but they have the time. not much has changed over the last 12 years. they've essentially been waiting us out until we finally leave. we have to be realistic that when that happens, they will likely overrun the country. they will overwhelm the existing government. there will be a huge setback to women's rights. there are not many good solutions. there's no obvious better solution to leaving. ideally there should be a three-way agreement between the taliban, the afghan government and the united states that that's not going to happen. so we have to be realistic. >> what about the options that richard haass was discussing

earlier, small footprint, on the model of germany and korea that there were. can tamp down any threats of terrorism that might rise. what about that? >> i agree with richard. there should be something retained in place in afghanistan to ensure that no terrorist organization that threatens the united states can establish, reestablish a caliphate there. i very much agree with that. whether it should be a footprint as large as south korea or germany, i think is a very different question. and i'm not sure that's realistic. >> mr. secretary, peter baker of the new york times is here with a question. peter? >> hello, peter. >> good to talk to you. how are you? >> okay. >> you know, it's a remarkable that we're here 20 years ago. i was reporter at the time at "the washington post." i actually arrived in northern afghanistan just days after 9/11 and was there the night bombs started in october of 2001. and i never would have expected

that night that we would still be there 20 years later. and yet, of course, the concerns that you just raised and other people have raised seem very real. i wonder what lessons we should take from the withdrawal from iraq, which was presided over by joe biden when he was vice president, only to then have to turn around and come back on some level in different form after the rise of isis. is there way that we can avoid that same sort of scenario where leaving even the small footprint we have makes us turn around and come back at some point because of unanticipated circumstances. >> peter, that's a real risk. lesson one, it actually is much easier to get into an armed conflict than it is to get out of one. lesson two, counterinsurgency in a country as large as afghanistan rarely works, requires sustained commitment, very large resources and was probably never going to work in

a country like afghanistan. we do need to retain enough there to ensure that our own homeland security, domestic security interests are maintained. i hope the biden administration has thought about exactly what that needs to be. but those who know history know that very often we often repeat the mistakes of past. and it's much easier to get into something like this, much harder and we've been struggling with this now for over a decade to figure out what a lasting peace looks like and how to get out of a situation like this. i'm afraid that we don't have many choices at this point at the 20-year mark except to leave. i hope we retain enough there to ensure that our own national security interests are protected. >> jonathan lemire has the next question.

jonathan? >> secretary johnson, good to see you this morning. >> good morning. >> of course the invasion of afghanistan was done because of the rise of terror groups who used that country as a place to launch the attacks on the united states. but that global worldwide threat assessment that we were just discussing points to more potent dangers coming from nation states, china among them. want to get your take, if you could give us a global look if you will from 30,000 feet whether you agree with that assessment and which nations, china, perhaps others pose the greatest threats to the u.s. and what kind of threats. >> that's exactly what this is going to be a 30,000 foot assessment. i don't have access to the intel anymore, though peter baker and his colleagues at "the new york times" are pretty good. i think it's important that the report highlights also nontraditional threats. in my judgment, the long-term

principle threat to our national security is global warming and climate change, specifically the effects of severe weather events on ageing infrastructure and the ability to up end global populations. in the short end, the principle threat to our national security is covid-19 and the biden administration is focussed keenly on that right now. in the mid term, the principle threat to our national security in my judgment is what you were just talking about, the events of january 6th represent a significant, domestic-based national security threat to our country. i encourage everybody to look at the study that just came out of the university of chicago, professor robert pape does analysis of the demographics of the group that attacked the capitol on january 6th. it's better educated and comes from blue states as well as red

states. the fear of displacement, baseless fear of the increasing diversity of our nation, and what we saw on january 6th, the report reveals is the tip of the iceberg. and that iceberg did not evaporate on january 20 when president trump left office. in my judgment, in the mid term, that is our principle national security threat. >> all right, former secretary of homeland security jeh johnson, always great to have you on the show. thank you very, very much. >> peter baker, thank you as well for your reporting this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll speak with member of the senate armed services and foreign relations committee, tim kaine. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪♪

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful shot out of cleveland this morning at 31 -- 32 past the hour. joining us now, democratic member of the armed services and foreign relations committee, senator tim kaine of virginia. and senator, we got a lot of questions for you. it's great to see you this morning. >> great. >> we'll start -- >> good to be with you, mika. >> thank you. you and 26 of your colleagues signed a letter to president biden urging him to rejoin the iran nuclear agreement. it reads in part, while the damage of the last four years left our country facing numerous challenges across the globe, there is no question that one of your early pressing national security priorities should be to return the joint -- return to the joint comprehensive plan of action, to address the threat of

iran's nuclear program. as such, we are encouraged that indirect talks are under way in vienna, aimed at reviving the nuclear agreement. it seems, senator, tim kaine, there's a lot to undue from the past four years. what makes this the very top priority? >> mika, the fact that the talks are going on are very helpful because president trump's decision to blow up diplomacy made the region less safe and hurt our relationships with our allies and even made our relationships with adversaries like russia and china more difficult because they were part of the deal that we negotiated. iran was complying with the deal by all estimation. president trump's own national security team, secretaries tillerson and mattis says we should stay in, but the president made us less safe by pulling out. we need to go back into the deal so that we don't see iran doing things like enriching past the

limits that the u.s. basically told them you don't need to comply with these anymore when the u.s. backed out of the deal. we should go back into the deal. hopefully get iran to comply again with the limitations. we would undertake to carry out our responsibilities and then we need to focus on other instances of iranian misbehavior. u.s. hostages in iran, bellicose activities in yemen and elsewhere, but we should do with their nuclear program under both constraints and an inspection regime that will lit us know what they're doing so we can protect our regional allies. >> senator kaine, let's move west one country to iraq. we're going to hear this morning or some time today from president biden that on the 20th anniversary before that date of september 11th, all troops would be coming home from afghanistan. what's your reaction? is that the right call? >> willie, the white house called me about six to eight weeks ago and this is exactly what i recommended that they do. i know they were getting recommendations from many, many people. and none of the choices were easy, but i think it's the right

call for two reasons. the u.s. military has done what it can in 20 years. for ten years we degraded al qaeda and eventually killed bin laden. the ten years since we now trained nearly half a million afghan army and police so that they can assume responsibility for the security of their own country. 20 years we've done what we can. the afghans have to shoulder that burden. with the assistance of the u.s. as a partner on diplomacy and humanitarian aid and development, but the u.s. military has done what it can. 21 years or 25 or 30 is not going to appreciably change the situation. the second reason it's the right thing to do is we have to focus in the cruelty of life you sometimes have to say, what are the top priorities. and right now the u.s.'s top security challenge is working with allies to curb aggression from china and russia. and in my view, promoting prosperity and stability in the americas. those are our two top challenges now. the middle east is no longer the

top area of strategic, you know, engagement and challenge for the united states. it's the endoe pacific and the americas joe biden wants to turn our attention and focus on what we need to do in 2021 and beyond. >> as you know the objective when the united states and al lice first went 20 years ago to afghanistan was to destroy it as a safe haven for terrorists to organize and launch further attacks. do you worry that by leaving we now leave ourselves open and that just kind of reconstitute itself and goes back to what it was 20 years ago? >> we're going to continue to have to work in tandem with the afghan government. again, in diplomacy and humanitarian aide and development to make sure that doesn't happen. but we can't want stability for afghanistan more than the afghans do. and we have invested heavily over 20 years with a military involvement, thousands dead, tens of thousands injured. it's time to refocus our attention on the areas that in

2021 are the areas of most strategic importance to the u.s. military. >> senator kaine, good morning. it's kasie hunt. >> hey, kasie. >> you mentioned china as part of our new focus here. i'm wondering, what impact do you think this prolonged conflict in afghanistan, the strain, the wear and tear on our u.s. military, on soldiers, sailers, airmen and marines have been there time and time and time again. are we ready to turn and potentially engage in a conflict with a major nation state if china were to move on taiwan. what is the state of our military in the wake of this conflict? >> kasie, that's a fantastic question. look, i don't think anyone is intending for us to be in an instantaneous military engagement with china. god forbid. we need to work with china. >> sure. >> in a million ways and stand up and confront them on behavior that's often acceptable. but this is not a new cold war or merging to a hot war.

i don't view it that way. but you are right, look, 20 years has taken a toll. i live in virginia which is the most connected state to the american military of any, repeated deployments. i was with a national guard unit on saturday. when i was governor, i went to so many deployments and homecomings and wakes and funerals. and it takes a toll. china has also benefitted tremendously in a sad way from the u.s. military engagements over the last 20 years. in fact f you were to ask who won the u.s.'s war in iraq, the answer is probably china. because china watched the u.s. fight battles, learned our fighting style, saw the weapons we had, went to school on us and developed their own military capacities to check against us. so, we need to stop, you know, the forever wars in the parts of the world that are no longer of key -- of the utmost strategic importance and reserve our focus and energy of the highly capable u.s. military for the areas that

are going to be the demands and challenges the next decades. >> senator, jonathan lemire with the associated press as a question for you. john? >> great. >> senator, good morning. want to keep skipping around the globe with you, if we could. around turn our attention to russia. the white house read out yesterday that president biden had a phone call with president putin in which he expressed concerns about the troop buildup in the ukraine and floated a summit between the two leaders later this year. couple questions for you, what are you make of that idea as a summit of wort while pursuit right now in this first year of the biden administration? and what sort of message should the administration, the u.s. on the whole, be sending about that troop buildup but also the treatment of alexei navalny whose health is really deteriorating in russia right now? >> in reverse order, we have to take a strong stand for human rights in russia. the treatment of this dissident, alexei navalny is outrageous and

we have to look at the tools we have available, sanctions and others to penalize russia for doing and expose more broadly the thuggish and corrupt behavior involved there. i have no problem with the idea of president biden wanting to do a summit with vladimir putin. president trump said he wanted to do a summit with kim jong-un, i said the same thing. dialogue guarantees nothing. the absence of dialogue almost always works badly. you go into a dialogue or summit like this with low expectations but look for opportunities to build a relationship. joe biden is very confident in his knowledge of the world and of russia's geo politics right now. there are areas we're working in tandem with russia. we continue to work on counterterrorism areas and remember, russia was part of the negotiating team that helped put limits on iran's nuclear program because they don't want a nuclear iran either.

if we rejoin the jcpoa we'll be back in the deal working in tandem with russia and china as well as our traditional al lice. >> senator, mike barnicle has a question for you, mike? >> senator, we'll bring it home to the united states of america to wrap up this interview and we thank you for your time. it is entirely possible that the george floyd trial could end before daunte wright, 20-year-old victim who was shot and killed by police a few days ago outside of minneapolis, is buried. you were governor of a state that has had a history, a sad history of sometimes racial conflicts with police, including one recently that was on video tape of an army lieutenant being abused by police officers. you're a united states senator who now represents the state that you once governed. would you agree with the contention held by many it's brief and simple but it's stark that it's safer to be white in

america? >> absolutely. absolutely. and that's a lingering tragedy, michael, that we have to work to resolve. the minnesota instance this week with daunte wright, heart breaking. the virginia instance, an army lieutenant medic in a community that is very supportive of the military, southeast virginia, gets abused and just i think inexplicably racist way by police officers. and even once they see that he's a lieutenant and once they see his car has a license plate they keep it up and use pepper spray on him and use a knee strike to knock him to the ground. it is more existentially perilous walking around in the streets of this country if you have black or brown skin. and so we have to do a lot. but police reform is really, really important. i'm a co-sponsor of cory booker's bill that would reform

the qualified immunity doctrine that basically shields police departments from accountability for their own recklessness. and if you allow recklessness, you get recklessness. and that's what we're seeing. we got to curb it. >> all right, senator tim kaine, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. we will see you again soon, we hope. and coming up, the very latest from the minneapolis area. resignations and unrest as we mentioned followed the deadly police shooting of daunte wright. while just a few miles away, the defense begins its case in the trial of the former police officer accused of killing george floyd. meanwhile, the families of both wright and floyd come together to call for justice and reform. "morning joe" is coming right back. or"mning joe" is coming right back

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we're so eager to drop them off, i'm honestly not sure if it was their school. it was a school. after more than a year of zooming in their schools this was what it was like in los angeles this morning. >> get out. get out. get out. love you. [ bleep ]. >> that's right. off to appleby's. >> at least she stopped the car. some parents don't slow down, roll them out of there. kasie, let's talk about the infrastructure bill. we have a new poll this morning from politico morning consult showing joe biden's approval rating broadly is at 59% now. 37% disapprove in this poll. that's a huge number. 59%. also widespread support for certain elements of infrastructure, even among republicans if you look through this modernizing highways, caring for the old, disabled

64%. you're seeing 54% approval for this. mitch mcconnell was out yesterday saying we support -- but what this bill does, $2.2 trillion bill from white house and democrats is to include a bunch of other things that republicans don't consider to be infrastructure that stretch the definition of infrastructure. so, is there some where the middle here to meet joe biden having republicans to the oval office? we saw that sort of theater again as we did in the covid relief package. is there somewhere to meet the middle on this bill? >> well, willie, i think the white house has basically looked at numbers like the ones that you just showed and decided that they're the middle because they are drawing support from voters in both parties. and that's what's driving their decision making. i think that they know or at least they feel imperative to try to demonstrate that they're

reaching out to republicans in congress, but so far republicans who are in congress who are opposing this have not managed to find a way to fight back against what the president is doing economically in any sort of effective way. i mean, they have -- they're relying on a strategy that they used against former president barack obama, who was incredibly unpopular with the right wing of their party. and who they used effectively to scare people quite frankly. and that hasn't happened with the current president, joe biden.

>> 59% approval rating. i mean, if you look at this time in the obama administration, there was republicans, the tea party, there were all coming after him. if you look at trump, there was the women's march. right now 59%. there's not a lot of options here for the republicans to go after joe biden, to create a real opposition. and then there are so many that are still sort of clinging to trump for some reason.

isn't there perhaps a different strategy that they could use to maybe perhaps work in a bipartisan way? >> well, mika, that 59% is a really good number and it's one the white house is keenly aware of as they move that this is something he campaigned as one, who could reach across the aisle and to get the republicans to come on board here for this massive infrastructure plan. they think there's a possibility this could happen. having said that, they have been uniform in their opposition. as much as that bipartisan outreach having some republicans to the white house the other day is about republicans, it's also about sending reassuring signals to moderate democrats, mainly

ones like senator joe manchin who has expressed unease, expressed a little wariness about just using reconciliation. he said he wants to see bipartisanship. the white house is sending the signal to manchin we're doing our part. if the republicans are going to obstruct and say no, they believe that will be enough for manchin. to say i tried, i'm on board. we'll do this with reconciliation. also what the white house is doing here knowing how popular not just the president is but infrastructure is, they're putting republicans in a position where they would have to say no to things that americans really want. repairs to roads, repairs to highways, broadband, water pipes that don't have lead in them, things of that nature. instead republicans are saying no to that because they don't want to see corporate tax rates go up? that's a pretty unpopular political position. sure, the gop will make hay about the overall size of the bill, they'll score a point here or there. largely that seems to be a losing hand the white house

believes. they're going to keep up this bipartisan outreach believing they can still get the bill passed and put republicans in a bad spot. >> if you're president biden right now you're looking at a 60% approval rating. having pumped $1.6 trillion of covid relief out to people that's popular not with just democrats but with republicans. the core elements also popular among republicans. he'll have republicans into the oval office. he'll talk to them. i know he worked in the senate his whole life. i know he'd like to work with republicans if he can. if they're not on board, he's going to put his head down and plow forward, isn't he? >> well, willie, if you're president biden, as you just said, you're also a student of the past 14 years of american political history. in addition to being a student of the past 14 years of american political history, you, if you're joe biden have actively participated in it, and one of

your distinct memories has to be that early in 2009 the senate minority leader, majority leader off and on, mitch mcconnell said without a smile on his face that the objective of the republican party in the united states senate in the year 2009 was to prevent barack obama from regaining election in 2012. so that's continued, that attitude, for the last ten of the past 14 years. the only exception being the four years of the trump administration when they marvelously in that first year 2017 passed a massive tax bill that helped rich people in this country. so again, if you're joe biden, that's what you're looking at. and in terms of bipartisanship, no one has been more bipartisan in his professional, political life than joseph r. biden of delaware. nobody. you can look at his record in the senate. he was always working across the aisle, so now he's president of

the united states, and now he has republicans into the oval office to sit and talk about things that his administration wants to do, and he's met with some who would like to do it, but they are still the facts of life in that party, they are still enthrall and in fear of donald j. trump, and they are reluctant to say yes to something almost every american wants to have happen and they've become the party of no. that's what you're dealing with if you are president joseph r. biden. that's the deal as he would say. >> so ahead we're going to speak with our friend who's calling this the new progressive era and that president biden is, quote, almost magical in his ability to make progressivism boring. we're back in a moment.

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. this week in covid history, it's mid-april 2020 and americans are so over covid-19. >> you can't buy paint. you can't buy lawn fertilizer or grass seed. i mean, come on. >> yeah, come on. luckily, trump is reopening america. >> the data suggests that nationwide we have passed the peak on new cases. our country has to get open, and it will get open. we have to get our country open, jeff. >> what metrics will you use to make that decision? >> the metrics right here. >> not everyone trusts the plan, like dr. grouchy. >> i think that's a bit overly optimistic. >> and the demon state governor. >> folks that would kill people. it would absolutely kill people. >> and now for a counter point. >> you know what? staying at home leads to death also. >> yes, if you accidentally

drink bleach. luckily trump can circumvent these naysayers with a sleek new gizmo who can spread to all his reporters who eat them all up. look at these smiling faces. thank you, president trump and your amazing metric system. this has been this week in covid history. >> never forget, never forget. >> weirdly funny but also painful because the not old movie clips and made up little shows, that all happened in the last administration. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, april 14th. along with willie and me we have the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton, former u.s. senator and now an msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill and white house

reporter for "associated press" jonathan lemire. joe has the morning off. we have an avalanche of news coming at us this morning, and we're following all of it including major news expected today on the war in afghanistan with president biden set to announce a date to withdraw all american troops. it was another night of unrest and tension near minneapolis after the police shooting of daunte wright as the officer who pulled the trigger has since resigned. we're also learning more about the fallout from the government's decision to recommend a pause in the use of the single-dose johnson & johnson vaccine yesterday and, willie, why don't we start right there. that's a big one. >> a busy morning as you said. the issue behind the pause is that six recipients developed a rare blood clotting disorder in the brain within two weeks of vaccination. nearly 7 million doses of j&j have been administered in the united states to date. the move sparked many states to suspend the use of that vaccine.

fda acting commissioner janet wood cob stress yesterday these events appear to be rare, however, covid-19 vaccine safe city a top priority for the federal government, and we take all reports of adverse events following vaccinations very seriously. we are joined by the director of the vaccine education center and an attending physician in the division of infectious diseases of children's hospital in philadelphia dr. paul offit. he was not part of the decision to recommend pausing the j&j vaccine. good morning, so walk us through what this decision must have been like here from the fda and the cdc. obviously we're hearing from a lot of critics who say when you have six cases out of 7 million, less than a 1 in a million chance of this happening based on the available data, does that really outweigh the adverse

effect of making people hesitant to go get the vaccine down the road? >> no, i'm sure this was a very tough decision for the fda. on the one hand, it does look like this is real, but it's rare. you know, when you have the so-called cerebral venus sinus thrombosis that's a blood clot in your brain and that can cause serious and occasionally fatal problems. on the other hand, so can covid-19. if we scare people about getting not just the j&j vaccine but all the vaccines we have a problem. i think today is going to be a key day. the advisory committee for immunization practices at the cdc is going to vote on how to move forward. they're either going to say i think that we should go forward with this vaccine. people need to understand this is a rare but real side effect, or they'll say since this is a phenomenon primarily of young people, especially young women, we will limit its use regarding

age or gender or they'll say we have two other vaccines that don't have this problem and we'll choose to remove it. i don't think that will happen but we'll see what happens. >> the defenders of this move say this is quite literally why the fda exists is to alert the public to potential dangers. is this the right call when we know so many people in this country already are hesitant about the vaccine based on anecdotal stories they've heard or bad information they've got online somewhere. do you think this was the right move? >> in a more rational world people would look at this and say, look, the cdc and the fda really cares about safety and not just the relatively uncommon adverse events that occur, but also when the vaccine is given to millions or tens of millions of people they care about safety. ky i can feel comfortable about these other vaccines that don't have a problem. i think you're right, there may be just sort of a general feeling that vaccines are unsafe and it would be a shame because

we only have one way out of this pandemic, and that's vaccination, and if a critical percentage of the population chooses not to be vaccinated we're not going to reach levels of herd immunity that are going to enable us to slow the spread of the virus. >> we have dr. fauci coming up in a few minutes. i want to ask both doctors this question. operation warp speed. the race for a vaccine, there was a lot said about how this was history in the making in terms of the incredible pace to which these companies came together to get a vaccine to the american people. is there any reason to believe that the speed involved in creating the vaccine perhaps has impacted quality? >> no, i think that the size of these trials, the 30,000 trial of moderna, the 44,000 size trial of pfizer, the 44 size trial of j&j is typical of any pediatric or adult vaccine.foll

two months after the last dose, usually the serious side effects if they occur occur within six weeks of the dose. because it occurred so rarely, a study of 44,000 people, which is about 22,000 people getting the vaccine is not likely to pick up an event that occurs in 1 in a million people. the only difference between these trial or the way we would do trials safer is that was a seven-year follow-up. here you had a seven-month follow-up. you're not going to do a two or three or four-year study for a virus that's killed 570,000 people this past year. >> well, why pause it? why pause it? >> so it's a pause. i think what they want to do, the fda and cdc is to see just how extensive this is. are there other cases they haven't heard about. are there other blood clot sites, i think they want to

gather their data and thoughtfully make a decision, which will be made today. is a pause. it's not an elimination of the vaccine. has it scared people? yes. will it scare people to the point that many or a critical number won't get the vaccine, i hope not. >> dr. paul offit, thank you very much. dr. anthony fauci will be joining us in just a few minutes. still ahead, the latest from minnesota following the police shooting of daunte wright. reverend al weighing in next on "morning joe." ♪♪ ♪♪ comfort in the extreme. ♪♪ the lincoln family of luxury suvs. my plaque psoriasis... ...the itching ...the burning. the stinging. my skin was no longer mine.

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welcome back to "morning joe." we want to turn now to the latest out of minnesota where the streets of brooklyn center were flooded with protesters again last night in the wake of the police shooting of daunte wright. police ordered protesters to disband more than an hour before the curfew began calling the gathering unlawful. that led to further confrontations as protesters threw rocks and launched fireworks at police officers who responded with gas grenades and

flash bangs in an attempt to disperse the crowd. protesters earlier in the day were peaceful with activists calling for reform and justice. the curfew in minneapolis does not lift until 6:00 a.m. central time this morning. what a day, willie. >> yeah, meanwhile, the minnesota police officer that shot and killed 20-year-old daunte wright over the weekend has resigned from the brooklyn center police form. her resignation letter reads, quote, i have loved every minute of being a police officer and serving this community to the best of my ability, but i believe it is in the best interests of the community, the department, and my fellow officers if i resign immediately. 26-year veteran officer kim potter fatally shot wright during a traffic stop sunday. earlier this week, the city's police chief said he thought potter made a mistake by shooting wright when she meant to grab her taser instead. the mayor of brooklyn center says he hopes her resignation will help to relieve tensions in the city, but declined to answer when asked if potter's

resignation instead of being fired meant she could move to another police force or to collect a pension. >> you know, i'm hoping that this will help bring some calm to the community, although, you know, i think ultimately people want justice. they want, you know, full accountability under the law, and so that's what we're going to continue to work for. we have to, you know, make sure that justice is served, justice is done. daunte wright, you know, deserves that. his family deserves that. >> the mayor also announced police chief tim gannon also would be resigning. let's talk about how this is playing out in minnesota right now with what we've seen from the resignation of the officer, the resignation of the police chief, the explanation that still defies belief to a lot of people that the officer thought that her gun actually was the taser, despite all the training that she's had. where do you see this headed from here, and what's your

message to everyone in minnesota this morning? >> i've talked to the father of daunte wright and i've talked to his girlfriend who was there. >> yeah. >> and clearly even is saying that it is hard to even imagine a 26-year veteran that doesn't know the difference in the weight and size of a gun and a taser and that you hold one on the prominent side of your body and the other on the opposite side, so there's a lot of disbelief there. we will know probably maybe as early as today whether or not the prosecutor is going to try to bring charges of any kind in that regard. attorney general benjamin crump who is one of the attorneys for the family flew to new york last night to be with me for the opening of national action network's convention today, and we'll respond to that today.

i think what really is underscoring here is at the same time ten miles away you have the trial of the officer that killed the george floyd at the same time you have in kenosha, wisconsin, the policeman that shot -- that was filmed in the back this young man in kenosha, wisconsin, last year was returned to duty yesterday with no discipline. all of this compounds a real problem of police accountability in the country. so what we're seeing play out in the street of minnesota, in brooklyn center is really reflective of people around the country saying enough is enough. when are police held accountable at any level, whether it is a taser that they say is a mistake in brooklyn center or whether it is knee on your neck in minneapolis or whether it is jacob blake in kenosha and

whether it's breonna taylor in louisville, all of this in the last six months during a pandemic. at what point do we stop. i think that's what the challenge is in front of the government and i think that's what's being reflected be many of us. >> you mentioned george floyd and the trial of officer chauvin. the defense has picked up and started its case. the prosecution put witness after witness after witness in front of the jury who said including by the way, officer chauvin's own supervisors, his police chief who said that was a violation of policy. that's not what we teach in our use of force. doctors, cardiologists saying he died because he didn't have oxygen to his brain. what is your expectation of how this may play out? i think there are a lot of people holding their breath saying, yes, the prosecution put out a good case but we've seen this movie before. >> we have, and i am cautiously optimistic. you know, i talk with the family every day. i've gone out two or three times. i'll be going out right after

the convention, and i've said to them that i believe the case is strong, but i've seen strong cases before, and all i can do is hope and pray not for a victory but for the country to show that we have the capacity of holding people accountable. if you have a man -- i think the thing that we've not looked at, willie, is that if you had a man that gave a $20 bill that was counterfeit that obviously the person that he gave it to in the store said, well, i don't even know if he knew it was counterfeit, he went and sat in the car in the front of the store with enough time that the police were called and came, so he wasn't running from anything. even if he knew it was counterfeit you would have walked up to him and said do you know this is counterfeit. you wouldn't arrest him, much less handcuff him and drag him to the ground. so the whole overreaction leans towards that there was some

intent here to do harm which ultimately led to his death. if that can't be prosecuted, what are we saying to everybody? >> yeah, with frustration boiling over in the streets, claire mccaskill overnight, you know, obviously we've shown the video of the flash bangs into the crowds and the cops trying to keep people who have stayed out past the curfew, but there was also some really peaceful, really moving, really beautiful moments during the day where the family of george floyd and daunte wright held a news conference, and they hugged, and they stood out in the snow. and mutually recognized the pain that each family was going through. and i just wonder as the defense moves forward in the derek chauvin trial, and you have a former california police officer talking about derek chauvin following protocol and another

person really talking about how the crowd that day was causing problems and really making the case for chauvin, how are jurors not -- how are jurors kept completely blind to the context that is happening in the air around them? >> they're not. now -- and by the way, i think one of the things we have to acknowledge, one thing that's really different in this trial than what has occurred in many, many trials across our country for decades, and that is the plethora of video evidence. not only did we have eyewitnesses that talked about what they saw and how this all went down, there is video from all these different angles. i think obviously the jury is smart enough to see that the crowd was not a danger to those officers in any way. and obviously neither was george

floyd. i do think the shooting of the young man a few miles away a few days ago is really a gut check moment for police departments. i mean, here's what's really sickening about this, mika. you know why he had a warrant? he had a warrant because he didn't get a notice for a hearing, and you know what he was charged with? carrying a gun without a permit in america. are you kidding me? in most states you don't even have to have a permit to carry a gun. so there is this thing that goes on where there are people in our communities that are being targeted by police officers and drug through a system that they never escape from. and it contributes to a cascading set of circumstances that hold them back in terms of their life's opportunities. and this is a good example of that. in this instance, this young man

paid the ultimate price for that and that is his death. i do think that everybody in america is going, wait a minute, this wasn't an armed robber. this wasn't a rapist. this wasn't a murderer. this is a young man who didn't show up for court on a charge that in most states wouldn't even be against the law. >> coming up, our conversation with dr. anthony fauci, what he says about the pause in the johnson & johnson vaccine. that's next on "morning joe."

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. joining us now is the director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases and chief medical adviser to the president, dr. anthony fauci. dr. fauci, good morning, thanks for being with us this morning. let's talk about this pause in the j&j vaccine, the six cases of the blood clotting among the 7 million shots that have been given out, less than a 1 in a million chase based on the available data. can you help explain what's going into this decision, how we're weighing the six cases

versus the vaccine hesitancy that it's sure to cause? >> well, the fda and the cdc made a decision based on an accumulating number of cases, small though they may be, they wanted to make sure they had all the information, and the prudent thing was to say let's just stop. very well may be quite temporary, but they just want to take a look and see if they can gather more information or even see if there are more cases that have gone unnoticed. the other reason to do it is actually an important reason because if there are women out there who have been vaccinated who do get this really serious syndrome of clots in the brain and in other parts of the body, that if they go to a physician, there's a message to the physicians out there that the natural thing that you would do to treat a clot would be to treat a person with an anticoagulant like heparin. that is contra indicated now. that would actually make things worse. there were twofold reason, one,

to just take a look at what's going on. that might just be a few days a week or so, and then make sure that people out there know how to treat this if, in fact, they encounter it. >> well, i understand that and that's the fda's job and it's clearly doing its job. but again, with the six cases and i don't need to explain to you the context this comes in. you guys have gone out of your way for months encouraging people it's safe to get these vaccines. we need people vaccinated. we need herd immunity, if you want to return to normal life, the vaccine is the answer. there are so many people in this country, good faith decent people who say i don't know, i've heard about people getting sick, and they read things online. so how do you weigh this if they're the cdc and the fda, how do you make that decision when you know it's going to prevent a bunch of people from getting the vaccine down the road. >> you bring up a good point, but there's another side to that story because much of the hesitancy that we encounter are people who wonder about the safety of a particular vaccine.

i mean, i know i'm out there talking to people all the time. this, in fact, is a confirmation of how seriously we take safety, so rather than turning people off about it, if you pause it for a little while and say, you know, we're very concerned to make sure that what we put in your arm is safe, we wanted to take a few days, take a look at this, get more details about it, and then very likely -- i don't want to get ahead of the fda, but very likely they'll say we looked at it and now we'll go back, maybe make some modifications. so to me it's an argument for why you should get vaccinated because the system is working. the system that is trying to protect the american people is working, which is what triggered the fda and the cdc to do that. >> as you know, unfortunately, a lot of people don't read the fine print. j&j said there's no causal relationship established. we just want to make sure people are aware of this and stop and take a look and make sure there's no link to it. i heard it yesterday, did you

hear the j&j thing, did you hear if you're a woman between 18 and 48 you might get this blood clotting, this woman died. another woman's in critical condition, how do you fight back against that kind of information, which is out there and people will be scared? >> right. you try to be as honest and transparent as you possibly can be and tell people the facts, which we're doing right now when we're having this conversation. you're absolutely right. this is an extremely rare event. there are six people in approximately 7 million. that's less than 1 per million. but because of an abundance of caution they just want to make sure that everything they do is geared towards the safety of the american public. i think that should encourage people. >> dr. anthony fauci thanks so much for being with us again this morning, we'll see you soon. coming up here, could the onslaught of government spending actually overheat the economy. we'll check in with cnbc about the risk of inflation when "morning joe" comes back.

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from td ameritrade. . welcome back to "morning joe," it is 8:36 in the morning here in the new york city. looks like a beautiful day looking south from the top of the rock. time now for business before the bell with cnbc's dominic chu. good morning, what are you looking at today? >> good morning, willie. we've got prices rising, first of all, for a lot of goods and services out there. the labor department's latest report on prices paid by the consumer came in higher than expected. that cpi or consumer price index rose by 6/10 of a percent in march over what it was in february. prices are also 2.6% higher than they were at the same time last year. that's important because that's the biggest year-over-year rise in consumer prices since august of 2018. there's a caveat, though. the biggest contributor to the move higher in prices has to do with fuel costs because gasoline

prices made up around half of that upside move in cpi. gas prices are, by the way, over 22% higher than they were in march of ls year. it's not just consumer goods seeing rises in prices, crypto currencies also hitting record highs. some would argue the timing couldn't with more perfect for coin base to go public. that crypto currency trading company will make its public market debut later on today. it's the first major crypto biz to do so in america. it's had not technically an ipo or initial public offering that has already sold shares to investors at a big price. rather it's a direct listing where it will sell stock directly to public market investors. the current reference price that has been set for this offering is $250 per share. keep it in mind because if coin base were to open for trading at that level, it would be worth around $65 billion as a company. then there are three big companies coming together to help get more vaccines into

underserved communities with regard to covid-19. uber has teamed up with paypal and walgreens to help set up a vaccine access fund. that fund will help pay for the cost of rides to vaccination sites for those who wouldn't otherwise have easy access to transportation to those covid centers. uber customers welcome able to donate through the cause, through the application that they have, uber says it has already provided more than 2 million free or discounted trips globally to help connect people to vaccines. so those are the top biz headlines, willie, i'll send things back over to you. >> whatever it takes to get people vaccinated. cnbc's dom chu with a look ahead. let's bring into the conversation boston globe columnist and co-host of the hashtag sisters-in-law podcast, kimberly atkins, and author of winners take all, publisher of the news letter entitled the inc, annan gear dar tsa.

mike barnicle is back with us as well. we want to start with your new piece for "the atlantic" entitled "welcome to the new progressive era." and you write in part this, the conversation i've had in recent weeks have painted a portrait of an improbable coming-together of people and forces. a moderate president with an ascendant progressive movement at his back and at his throat, facing a once in a generation window of opportunity. it's still early. it remains to be seen if this momentum will continue. if the infrastructure plan musters the votes, if the ungainly sanders dimension coalition holds, but for now, a capitol that has been defined in recent years by the absence of useful action bubbles with generative possibility. and many of us who thought we knew what a biden president would look like and didn't expect much from it are suddenly

asking ourselves, how did we get him so wrong? anand, it seems like biden's experience over the past 30, 40, 50 years has led to a lot of stories and sort of stereotypes of what a biden presidency might look like, but the man who is president now is a whole lot different than the biden we knew 20, 30, 40 years ago and perhaps that's why there is this window of opportunity. >> absolutely. you know, i decided to home bound as i am, decided to just spend a lot of time on the phone in recent weeks talking to the campers in this big tent, and talked to everybody from, you know, manchin to larry summers to progressives, congresswoman jayapal and other progressives, and the thing that i heard again and again was surprise, all manner of surprise. and i think what you're seeing

is a strange marriage of man and movement and moment, so the man is, as you said, a historically moderate person, someone associated with the centrist wing of the party, more corporate friendly wing of the party. he ran and won despite a second thing going on, which is a progressive movement that increasingly has set the terms of the conversation and won a battle of ideas in the party as many moderates told me for this piece, even though they didn't win the primary. and so you got the man and the movement in somewhat tension but also as i said in the piece, at his back ask at his throat the movement is. and then finally the moment, and there's kind of two components of the moment. there's the acute moment we're in of covid, the plague, this kind of once in a generation political opportunity to do something big because of how bad things are, but also the accumulation of chronic crises,

the death of the american dream frankly over the last generation, and without covid, perhaps there wouldn't be the political will to do big things. and so ultimately, the kind of picture i found of joe biden throw all these conversations was someone who is a coalitional politician, not a star. someone who is actually willing to kind of be the sum of the parts of his coalition, someone who's making progressives, moderates, business folks and others feel heard and seen and listen to in ways that richard trump from the ail, other administrations used to call us and tell us a decision. this administration calls us to ask us what the decision should be. it amounts in my view to potentially, 2021 being a break not just frr 2017 and trumpism, not just from 2009 and the kind of limited response to a previous crisis but really a break from 1981 and the dawn of the age of reagan with the fundamental assumption that government is the problem, the

idea of government is a redemptive force to make people's lives better is back. >> so kimberly atkins, do you agree? >> i think so. i think wither seeing that. look, i think that this has to do with a number of factors, including just being in a post-trump era where democrats from across the ideological spectrum are incentivized now that they are in power, in congress, and in the white house to work together, to find the places where they can agree, to listen to each other in order to move forward and do what all of them want to do, which is reverse not only the policies that donald trump and congressional republicans have put in place over the years but reverse the course of the country, reverse the tone and the messaging in this country and move forward. so each and every democrat in washington is incentivized to do that. i thought we saw some signs along the way, along the campaign that joe biden would be

willing to listen to more progressive folks. we saw that with the people who he surrounded himself with, including senator elizabeth warren. we saw that in his pick for kamala harris as vice president. so perhaps i'm a little less surprised that this is playing out, but certainly the extent of which i was not expecting of, for example, in the infrastructure plan for that to include a plan to restore neighborhoods, black neighborhoods that were really destroyed with highway building in the mid-century. i really didn't expect a lot of things that are very progressive, very forward-looking and very much in keeping with the moment that we've seen in the last year of the call for racial justice beyond policing. so i am somewhat surprised but i think we saw a bit of this coming. >> anand, as you say one of the criticisms of joe biden in the primary season is that he was going to be too centrist, that he wouldn't be the vessel for

progressive ideas that most democrats had hoped for. in fact, when he was criticized by donald trump as being too progressive or part of the radical left to use his term, i think voters sort of shrugged that off looking at joe biden's record as not being ultra progressive. so does that contribute to the surprise, the fact that he was seen as the guy in that big field of candidates as the one who may not, in fact, be most representative of the modern democratic party? >> yeah, and i think there's a funny dynamic where, first of all, to his credit, i think biden is something incredibly countercultural, which is he's persuadable. as someone who worked for him for a long time told me, you know, he was in iowa back in the primary, and although he ended up winning the overall race, he saw that it was the sanders and warren camps in iowa that had big boisterous crowds, and his,

as the media reported at the time, were quite thin. so he saw like a stand-up comic in a room noticing when you're getting the laughs, he saw where the energy was. he prevailed, and then he was willing through the unity task forces that he had with the sanders' folks onward to incorporate a lot of those ideas and certainly a lot of those people. and the other thing is there is a -- i think a kind of practice of something i've heard so much in this administration, this idea that, you know, fdr said to a. phillip randolph, labor activist, make me do it. if you want me to do a big thing, make me do it. i think a lot of the attitude of this administration is go make me do it. i'm willing to do it, but i'm not willing to be three miles ahead of public opinion. i'm willing to do it if you can push and pressure public opinion to a place where, you know, it's ready for me to do, and i think that ends up being an incredibly powerful combination that could

spell a transformational presidency and a presidency against all odds given biden's record that ends up shattering the age of reagan, the consensus of the reagan era in a way that the obama and clinton presidencies ended up not. >> you know, it's such an interesting point about how president biden reacts to public opinion and has over the course of his career, but kimberly atkins i'm curious about your take on how the president is handling not necessarily the issues that are these 60/40 or 70/30 issues where even republicans are supportive like these economic issues and a lot of the things anand's been talking about but some of the cultural issues. i was listening to how the president spoke about the recent tragic death of daunte wright in minnesota and he was careful about how he talked, for example, about law enforcement and the police. he does walk this careful kind of moderate line in the language that he uses and the tone that

he takes. do you think that there is risk for president biden with his progressive base around some of these perhaps more wedge oriented issues that republicans really want to use in the midterms to try and take back the house and the senate? >> yeah, i don't think there's as much of a risk in that, yes, he certainly can speak with compassion and empathy and a sense of urgency when it comes to the tragic deaths we are seeing of black people at the hands of police, but i think he also understands something that most black folks -- and by the way, most black voters are more moderate. they tend not to be as progressive, but he understands that black folks want police to keep them safe. they don't want them to kill them. and that in pushes for reforms, it does not mean that you mean you want the police to go away, defund police means defund the way that they have been working up until now. so i think he understands that, and i think black americans get that he understands that.

it was black americans in south carolina that really set him on the path to the presidency. but i also think, and like i said, the policies that he's putting forward, that he understands that the moment that we're in requires really bold and forward moving action when it comes to restoring the -- and putting within reach the american dream for black americans like he's talking about things like reparations. he's talking about other measures. so i think so far he has republican jumped in. i think anand is right, it is still early. i'm waiting to see what actually comes out of it, where the rubber meets the road, but so far i think he's on track with that. >> mike barnicle's got a question for you. >> welcome to old guy question time here, and the questions are -- >> that could be its own show. >> yeah, yeah. what's the difference, if there is one, between being a liberal and being a progressive? and the second question is when

you write, how did we get him so wrong in terms of speaking about joe biden, please identify the "we." >> yeah, it's a great double question, i'm looking forward to the old-time old-guy question show hour. hour. look, i think one way to understand that question with progressives and liberals at least in the modern era is how seriously you push back against corporate power as a principal threat in american life. there are versions of that around race. you can talk about -- i think, a more progressive view on race would really talk about white supremacy and structural racism with more comfort than the kind of more moderate liberals who are more comfortable with the language of colorblindness and things like that. in issue after issue it is, i think, a view that looks at structures and power and

frankly, not tweaking the action, but changing the engine. in terms of the "we" i was very much writing as someone of the progressive persuasion who did not anticipate a presidency at a level of policy that would be as bold as some of the things we've seen. kimberly is exactly right. the infrastructure plan is not just an infrastructure plan. it has embedded in it an effort to dismantle systemic racism over a generation and deal with climate. you know, just the amount of spending that we saw in the rescue plan, the child benefit. a lot of this i didn't see coming and most of the progressives i talked to from ilhan omar to congressman jayapal, it doesn't mean everyone is thrilled and it doesn't mean everyone is getting what they wanted and a lot of the conversations that i had for "the atlantic" policy is one

thing, but there are cultural directions for the country, for 40 years, to 2021, the cultural wave of the country has been an an anti-government wave, there have been liberals, republicans, different parties in power and government is evil at worst and want rely on it at much. bill clinton told me it is always better if you can solve problems in the private sector. that's what that era was when the democrats were saying that. i think the fundamental thing that has happened right now is that ship is turning. i think this administration and mike donnelly from the white house said to me, i think this is the moment when we finally break out of how government has operated since reagan. pretty significant statement from a democratic administration and a break from the past two democratic administrations. >> all right.

anand giriharadas, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. kimberly atkins, thank you as well. great conversation. up next, msnbc's exclusive interview with jon stewart over the comedian's fight for america's war veterans. keep it right here on "morning joe." "morning joe. for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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for legislation for veterans suffered by veterans, among comedian jon stewart who had an exclusive interview with lester holt for nightly news said the situation echoes the aftermath of the terrorist attacks of september 11th. >> will thompson served as a combat medic during two deployments in iraq, but when the soldier returned home he sought treatment himself. >> they said that my lungs looked like an 80-year-old coal miner's. >> thompson was told he needed a double lung transplant joining a growing number of veterans who developed sometimes fatal diseases as a result of their exposure to burn pits. open burn pits were a common feature at u.s. military bases in iraq and afghanistan, a crude way to dispose of trash and waste material. >> you're talking about human waste. you're talking about daily trash

pickup and hazardous materials of war. i'd like to say the smoking gun in the situation are literally smoking guns. >> jon stewart started advocating for veterans affected by burn pits after noticing parallels with what many 9/11 first responders had experienced. >> what the first responders were standing on top of was essentially a burn pit. the jet fuel from the planes ignited it, but it was all those materials from the world trade center. you know, it's the ash. it's the smoke. it's all those things together create this matrix of health conditions that you're seeing in iraq and afghanistan veterans. >> thompson says he had no idea the pits could be hazardous. >> you smelled something burning, you didn't even think about it. >> for thompson medical care wasn't an issue because he got sick while still on active duty, but for veterans whose

conditions manifest later on that's not always the case. the issue is the sub jektd of at least eight bills in congress right now, all aiming to expand access to va care for veterans who think they're suffering from a burn pit-related ill happens. it follows the science on questions of health outcomes of military exposures and the national academy of sciences have so far been inconclusive. for veterans who are five years out of service -- experts say that's difficult. >> intuitively, we know that burning hodgepodge is not good for our health. we don't need science to tell us that. >> they're holding veterans to a higher bar. i can smoke for 30 years and if i get lung cancer i would have a hard time proving to you that my particular lung cancer came from

smoking and you see that as a pattern. >> it's a pattern. we set aside money for war, but we don't set aside money for the true cost of war. >> the cost of war for veterans like will thompson. thompson's medications make his immune system vulnerable. so he'll always be living with the consequences. >> i am appreciative for being alive. i'm thankful for that, but most dads can pick up their little girls and their little boys and give them a big old hug. i can't do that. i don't understand how a country can send soldiers to fight and then come back home and not want to take care of them. >> lester holt reporting there. mika, jon stewart has done such great work and has been a great advocate for veterans, and he's

been talking about burn pits for years as the agent orange of the post-9/11 generation. >> and we will continue the conversation. >> that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. ♪♪ ♪ hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle live from msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is wednesday, april 14th and there is a ton of news to get to this morning. in just a few hours from now a cdc advisory committee meets to plan a path forward after recommending states stop giving out the johnson & johnson vaccine because of worries about potential blood clots. the risk is teeny tiny. it is less than one in a million cases, but the fallout from the cdc's decision could be massive. plus this afternoon, president biden will announce official plans to end america's longest war 20 years after it began.