ken phone. (vo) you broke your phone. so verizon broke the rules. for the first time ever, new and current customers can trade in their old and damaged phones for up to $1,000 off our best 5g phones. because at verizon, the network is just the beginning. welcome to "mpt daily." i'm chuck todd. and we have a busy day. any minute we will hear lawmakers say the capitol police force was underprepared for the january 6th attack, chaotic and disorganized while it was happening and offer recommendations for changes to the capitol police force. we're also following

developments out of two trials in minneapolis. derek chauvin's just wrapped up and defense and prosecution rested their cases. the jury was dismissed until monday, when closing arguments will begin. the judge mindful of the weekend, not wanting to mess around with it. also any moment we expect the family of daunte wright to speak. that press conference comes as former minnesota police officer was charged with second degree manslaughter in wright's death is set to be arraigned in court at 2:30 this afternoon. but we are going to begin with what we believe is an incredibly consequential capitol hill meeting shaping up to be the most searing indictment yet of the capitol police's response to the january 6th riot. the general michael bolton is appearing before the committee. he's expecting to detail an unpublished 108-page report that we at nbc news obtained that

warned them before attacks, in fact three days before the riot, an interception of the agency warned this -- congress itself is the target on the 6th. stop the steal's propensity to attract white supremacists, militias and others that promote violence may lead to a significantly different situation for law enforcement and general public alike. this is about as bad as bin laden determined to send planes into new york. sze spite the threat, officers were ordered to work january 6th without their strongest crowd control weapons and in some cases expired or faulty equipment. here's more from the report. heavier and less lethal weapons including kpors ponding munitions were not used. some were beyond their expiration date. during january 6, 2021, they witnessed riot shields

shattering upon impact. they attribute the shatter to improper storage or simply the age of the shield. the inspector general's report paints a damning picture of chaos, inefficiency and dysfunction throughout the ranks of the capital police on both the intelligence and operations side. nbc's leigh ann caldwell is on capitol hill for us. also with us our justice correspondent pete williams, cynthia miller from polarization and integration lab. pete, this is like finding out the pbb in august 2001, bin laden determined to use planes. that's what this intelligence reports from the ig's report lays out here. the description of what they said before january 6th could not have been more prescient. >> yes and two days later an intelligence assessment in the operating plan said the chance of violent was very low. one of the things the jinser general says here is the capitol

police does not have a good structure for gathering intelligence and doesn't have a good structure for sharing intelligence. and i think that's one of the big takeaways from the report. on a larger level the ig is saying the capitol police has not yet fully evolved from a normal police force that responds to trouble to a more progressive force that protects the agency. and that's really the transformation that has to happen. the capitol police have said in response, we agree with all of your recommendations. we want to do all of these things but we don't yet have the resources. hint, hint to congress, if you want us to do this stuff, you'll have to give us more money. i will say one other thing, chuck, i used to work on the hill many years ago, house and senate, and in those days it was officer friendly on the beat and capitol police were sort of door rattlers. it's really changed since then. i think the question the ig is asking here, has the capitol police force evolves as the country has evolved? >> it's interesting you call it

evolved and so does the ig. i will be honest with you, pete, when was -- when did the capitol police know they were expected to be an intelligence service? is that something capitol police should be dealing with themselves, or because of who they are is this something at the end of the day they thought they could rely on the fbi and dni? >> well, whether they are capable and should be people who generate intelligence and gather intelligence, that is part of what they do but what the report says is, you know, before you even get to that stage, you have to have a good way of sharing the intelligence that you do have. and it does seem there was not a quote/unquote intelligence failure to warn that this could happen on january 6th. >> they will be asking for more money, there's no doubt. that's what some of this hearing is going to end up leading to here. but what about structurally, is there anything about this -- is

this just simply, hey, the structure is correct, they just need better leadership and better resources? or are we looking at a restructuring of what a capitol police force even looks like? >> the report itself doesn't call for a wholesale restructuring. it says, for example, in the civil disturbance unit, the officers who should have been the most protected, the most hardened with helmets and ballistic vests and shields, even there the training was deficient, the staffing deficient, munitions outdated. they said it's not a structural problem, it's failure to do what the structure required. >> pete williams, i know you've got a -- can't miss a second of the hear and i want to make sure you don't miss it. i will let you go here. leigh ann caldwell, let's get to the politics of this a little bit because we still don't have a january 6th commission. i wanted to call it 9/11-style commission. we still have no commission.

it seems to be a lot more finger pointing on capitol hill. i'm starting to wonder if there's a sense of urgency among the leadership. i know they claim urgency on this but the lack of getting this together can almost -- there seems to be almost comfort in being able to point fingers rather than get this done. >> well, that's actually one frustration that i hear from many rank and file capitol police officers, in reality, nothing changed since january 6th. there's temporary fencing put up but congress continues to discuss among themselves and coming to stalemate on what in fact should be done. we had two sets ever recommendations now with the inspector general and also retired lieutenant general honor yi as well. we're waiting for an emergency security supplemental that was supposed to be released now

and it hasn't. hoyer said it could be released earlier this month but it might be prolonged. and speaker nancy pelosi wants this january 6th 9/11-style commission that was totally between herself and negotiated with mitch mcconnell, she was asked about it at her press conference today, she said there's still big divisions on what the scope of this commission should be. there's a lot of saber-rattling but not a lot of things done to change the posture around here. i want to make one other point, the senior law enforcement official he told me something missing throughout this conversation since january 6th, including in this inspector general report, the sole mission of capitol police is protect members and staff. and something that has been forgotten, this person says, is they did their job on january 6th. they safely evacuated all members of congress. no one was hurt and no one died

as far as members and staff are concerned. so, you know, all of this is getting lost while congress is trying to figure out what to do but making no significant steps and actually doing something. >> leann, how much of this is because the four leaders do not have a good relationship with each other? i know we're not surprised but, look, pelosi and boehner i think had a much better working relationship, pelosi and ryan, you don't see that with mccarthy. pelosi and mcconnell don't seem to have a good relationship. schumer and mcconnell, not like reed and mcconnell. how much of that is contributing to the inability to get on the same page of putting this above politics? >> i think a personal relationship, obviously, play a huge role but i also think the politics are critical here. democrats say that republicans don't want this commission

focused on january 6th because it will be a constant reminder to voters of the former president and his role and some republicans' role leading up to january 6th and that is politically damaging. that is why some republicans want this expanded to include protests from last summer, the racial justice protests be black lives matter and antifa. there's just not a lot of trust between the parties right now at all and that is having a significant impact in negotiations. we saw after 9/11 the country came together and congress came together but after january 6th, it is just further divided this congress. >> yeah, there's no doubt and there's -- you start to wonder if anybody knows how to have a leadership moment here. leigh ann caldwell on the hill, thank you. cynthia miller, your institute, you focus on this rising threat of white

supremacy, and what's interesting here is based on this january 3rd bulletin that the ig found, there's at least some parts of our government that are concerned. let me put up the full screen for this january 3rd bulletin. the two protests expected to be the largest of the day. the women for america first protest at the ellipse and the stop the steal protest in areas 8 and 9, these have propensity to attract white supremacist members, militia and others may lead to a significantly dangerous situation for law enforcement and public alike. then there was another intelligence report that sort of downplayed the potential threat, and i have to tell you, it all keeps coming back to, it feels as if many in law enforcement didn't, for whatever reason, have not taken this domestic violent extremism as seriously -- maybe they do now -- but not on january 3rd,

4th, or 5th. >> yeah, i think the signs have been clear for a long time. the department of homeland security itself in their annual threat assessment in october 2020 declared domestic violence extremism in general and white supremacist extremism in particular to be the most lethal threat facing the nation. the writing has been on the wall. we've also seen escalations over the past year and more with armed protests at the state capitol, storming of the german parliament by a group of militant extremists who broke off from a protest in august of last year and the kidnapping plots against the governors in mitch mitch and virginia. there have been plenty of warnings about attacks on elected officials, about the danger and then the intelligence itself was there. but you're absolutely right, there's just been a sort of unwillingness to accept that danger from our own citizens and threat to our own democracy

coming sort of from within the house. >> talk about the resurgence you've seen post january 6th. one side of the aisle, a prop gand kwa campaign that one of the propaganda cable channels is tempting, that really is trying to reremember january 6th as an event in a different way than what actually happened. what are you seeing online amongst extremists as they see all of this sort of post january 6th politics stewing here? >> luckily we are seeing a fragmentation and that's exactly what they want to see. when they came together across the desperate extremist groups, militias, qanon conspiracy theorists, proud boys, they were able to form a coalition on that day that made them more powerful than they are individually as groups on their hone. so you want that fragmentation.

we are seeing not a unified response. so some feel they are celebrating also globally, really celebrating the event as the courageous revolutionary act of heroes. and really feeling like it was a tremendous success. but others are feeling like this is going to bring about more surveillance, more suppression and that it was a step too far. so i think that as long as they continue to be not aligned in their goals, that's a better outcome for those of us trying to combat it. >> leigh anne and cynthia miller, if you can both stick around because we're going to bring you the testimony from the inspector general live in a moment when it begins. by the way, we're also monitoring the situation in minneapolis. both sides in the derek chauvin trial have just rested their case. closing arguments begin next week and there may be some remarks from the family of daunte wright, which will be coming in a few minutes. all of that after the break. but let's sneak in this break. k. . ...the itching

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welcome back. after 45 witnesses took the stand over 14 days, testimony in derek chauvin's murder trial is now over. defense elected to rest today with mr. chauvin not testifying in his own defense. >> is it your decision not to testify? >> it is, your honor. >> do you have any questions about your right to silence or not to testify on your own behalf? >> not at this time i don't. >> did anyone promise you anything or threaten you anything to keep you from testifying is this. >> no promises or threats, your honor. >> you feel that your decision not to testify is a voluntary one of your behalf? >> yes, it is. >> the prosecution did recall one of its most impactful witnesses as a rebuttal witness, pulmonologist dr. robert tobin who refuted testimony from a witness that said george floyd might have died from carbon

monoxide poisoning. closing arguments are scheduled for monday. they're taking the day off tomorrow. and they will begin deliberating that, and as another trial draws to a close, another police officer is making her first appearance in the death of another black man. daunte wright was shot and killed in minnesota brooklyn center on sunday. potter and the police chief resigned two days later. potter claims she drew her gun instead of the taser accidently. joining us now, shaquille brewster and nbc legal analyst joyce vance. shaq, walk us through the judge's sort of scheduling decision today. it certainly seems as if he had been sensitive to a -- perhaps a weekend verdict number one but also they're going to sequester the jury but i guess had this at least gives them one more weekend before they're sequestered? >> that's right. and really eliminates, chuck,

the possibility there would be a verdict over the weekend, which no one has expressedly -- expressed that, i should say, in court directly but that seems to be something people want to avoid. you look around the downtown area, the boarded-up buildings, fencing behind me. having this and closing arguments not begin until monday, it eliminates that at least immediate possibility that you will have this weekend with the verdict. so i think that goes into the scheduling from the judge and that's something that the judge has signaled in the beginning of this week. he said the defense would be going on for two to three days. he said if the defense rests before friday, friday would be an off day and those closing arguments would be monday. you saw a very busy day in court today, chuck. big headlines flew in very quickly. we saw and heard from derek chauvin for the first time, who decided not to take the stand in his own trial, and you heard the judge and prosecution go back

and forth over new evidence that was uncovered based on dr. fowler's testimony yesterday where he insinuated george floyd possibly died from carbon monoxide poisoning. the judge denied introducing that new evidence but the prosecution still brought on dr. tobin for that rebuttal witness. and, of course, you heard the defense rest their case officially. so this process moved very quickly. there were a lot of big headlines he today in that courtroom. >> you know, it's funny, they seem to hint at what perhaps the new evidence would have been, shaq. and joyce vance, i want to play a little bit of a part of dr. tobin's rebuttal. it was specifically on the carbon monoxide allegation. take a listen. >> do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty whether this state that mr. floyd's hemoglobin could have increased 10% to 18% is reliable? >> no, i believe it is not reliable. >> will you tell the ladies and gentlemen why that statement is not reliable?

>> i base it on the arterial blood gas that was ob entertained when mr. floyd was in hennepin county. >> shaq, let me go to you first. was that what they were trying to do, introduce evidence that would have refute it without him having to talk about it? >> that's exactly what they were trying to do. we saw before the jury was brought in the prosecution came up and explained to the judge they actually got a call here from the medical examiner in hennepin county, dr. andrew baker, saying he was watching the testimony yesterday of dr. fowler and there were results in the blood testing from george floyd after he died that would have answered the question of how much carbon monoxide was in his system. i know they used a whole bunch of medical terms i'm into the trying to repeat right now but regarding how much carbon monoxide was in his system. the judge said this should have been evidence you submitted before. this was not in the record. you can't come after you hear

that testimony when the testimony was very clear, we knew what dr. fowler -- or prosecutors knew what dr. fowler was going to testify. the judge said you can't submit new evidence after the fact, you should have done that beforehand. but there were specific details dr. tobin was able to testify and speak to that kind of addressed the issue without addressing that specific level of carbon monoxide in his system. >> joyce vance, how did the prosecution do here? was it a mistake not to have this at the ready from the git-go? should they have anticipated this? or is it you cannot anticipate everything? did they make their point even not getting that evidence in, in your opinion? >> hindsight is always 20/20. i think a lot of people saw this carbon monoxide issue coming from about a mile away because you can see the position of george floyd's head on the asphalt. you can see that exhaust pipe. i heard a lot of questioning about whether the car was running or not, not in the

courtroom but among people discussing the case. as you say, chuck, you can't be prepared for everything. and this is at best a distraction. in fact, the prosecution foresaw issues like this being raised when they submitted their proposed jury instructions to the judge and they asked him explicitly to say irrelevant sorts of issues like this don't create reasonable doubt. the prosecution did a good job of cleaning it up today. dr. tobin was able to testify based on an earlier report that was in evidence that talked about the -- like shaq, i'm going to try not to pronounce the medical words, but i think it was the hemocratic they tried to use to compare the karen monoxide. now if they want to use it to create a reasonable doubt, that

could happen, that's the risk. >> if you mispronounce a medical term, the pharmaceutical company will just copyright the word and turn it into a new prescription drug. but, joyce, let me go to the issue of the closing arguments. that is if you're the prosecution now after what you have seen the defense do, do you have to -- what do you need to most emphasize in your closing arguments going forward now given where the defense ended up standing? >> i was never very flashy as a prosecutor, chuck. i think i tried some place north of 50 cases. and my goal in closing argument was always the same thing, i wanted the jury to know that they can trust me, that my word was good. and in my opening statement, i would have laid out for them the evidence that expected to offer and in closing i wanted to have a bookend for that promise that i made to them in the opening

statement and review the evidence and remind them of my promise and let them know we fulfilled our commitment. and then in closing argument you have the opportunity for the first time as the prosecution to argue the evidence, to tell the jury what it means and how it supports only a verdict of guilt and no other reaction from them to the evidence. once you've established your credibility and you kept your promises, you then have the opportunity to talk with them about each of the crimes. there are three that are charged here. what the elements are, the judge will instruct the jury on the law so you want to make sure what you're telling the jury is consistent with what the judge will instruct on. then you talk about how the evidence establishes each of those elements beyond a reasonable doubt. >> well, we'll all get to see firsthand how they do starting monday. joyce vance, shaquille brewster,

thank you both. i don't want to cut you short but capitol police opening statements are done and questioning is happening so let's listen in. >> it certainly would have helped us that day to enhance our ability to protect the capitol. >> you said why the order was given not to use less lethal weapons but are you able to identify who gave that order? >> yes, ma'am. the word we have, it was an assistant deputy chief. >> all right. mr. davis, you are now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. and great questions. thank you for your responses to those from chairperson lofgren,

mr. bolton. and thank you for being here. thank you for the briefings that you hung in there to give to me and to our members. there's nothing more bipartisan than getting to the bottom of how we prevent another attack that we saw on january 6th. you mentioned in your report that the department can improve recruitment in hiring and retention of officers. what steps do we need to take within the capitol police to do that. >> thank you, sir. one of the things, we need to think outside the box in a sense. granted, there will be certain things that we will need a legislative fixture in it, but we need to think of recruiting those who have already had the law enforcement police training, whether it be a local agency around here that have a very

robust, large training academy, where we can offer them signing bonuses, for lack of a better term. if they have a college degree, 3.0, we give them x number of dollars. if it's not quite 3.0, it's a little lower. we try to bring on incentives for to bring people in to recruit them and if they already have that training, there's no reason to send them down to the federal law enforcement training center, which is a 12-week program, plus we also cut off the time of the recruitment and things that go along with trying to bring people on board and we hail our training out in cheltenham for those individuals who already have the training of people who already have training in our capitol police, that is unique for us. that way we can cut down on time for individuals who are already trained and then also offer

bonuses, either x number of dollars in cash or here's something for your student loan. that way we can speed up bringing bodies on board as quickly as we can. >> seems like some interesting whys. i certainly hope as we look forward to -- to solving problems and getting more officers on the force, they look at some of your suggestions. you know, i mentioned the capitol police board earlier, can you explain the purpose of the police board? can you tell us, is that structure similar to other law enforcement agencies? do any other agencies have a similar board? >> given the capitol police board is really not under my purview, i have actually know jurisdiction concerning the board, i report to the board, that is true. i'm faunl with at least the agencies that i belong to would have that kind of similar setup

but this is a unique atmosphere and environment that we are dealing with, since you have a house side, senate and architect of the capitol. that is certainly a discussion i understand homeland security over on the senate side are looking into and i believe they will be issuing a report may 1st or some time around there. it is a unique set of circumstances. it certainly would be something that should be addressed and discussed amongst the committees. but i don't have any purview over the capitol police force. >> did you come across any information that would say that the board is engaged actively in the oversight of the department? >> well, i do know that the board holds board meetings with the department, at least -- and at the very least, i know they are engaged in the past but at least monthly they have board

meetings. so they are engaged with them. >> can you tell me just in your opinion, why has the board failed to ensure the department's implementation or recommendations from some previous reports? >> that i wouldn't be able to opine on but i would say i do know that the department weekly provides the board with the list of open recommendations to the board members. that's as far as i know, as far as, again, like i said, i don't have any purview over the capitol police board. >> one real quick question, last question before my time runs out, and i know i'm asking about the capitol police force but i think the american people need to understand the limitations that any capitol police chief has to address security issues here and a lot of it, i believe, is due to the political pointee and political structure of the capitol police force. in your opinion could the department implement, could the capitol police board department

recommend any recommendations without board approval? >> certainly, yes, i see nothing that would prevent the department -- and we are always cognizant of whether it be a budgetary issue or whether it needs to be approved by the committees, but as far as the board has never interfered or stopped -- or the department from implementing any recommendations. >> so the department could implement some of your recommendations without the board approval? >> that's true and correct. >> okay. ig bolton, thank you so much, and thank you, madam chair. >> thank you. i turn now to mr. raskin for his questions. >> madam chair, thank you very much, and thank you to mr. davis for convening this hearing. mr. bolton, the department of homeland security under bothp president trump, former

president trump and president biden, said domestic violence extremism is the number one terror threat in the country to the american people, the kind of groups that participated in the january 6th onslaught and siege against the capitol, the racist, white nationalist, anti-government group. so we can expect that there's going to be more of this coming, and it looks like this pattern of violence is actually accelerating. so we've got to get this right. one of your reports examined the civil disturbance unit and identified a number of deficiencies there, including a lack of adequate policies and procedures. do we have a dedicated, full-time professional civil disturbance unit? if not, why don't we? and do we need to change the structure of it? >> thank you, sir. the department currently the way

it's constituted, the civil servants unit, cdu, is more or less i would describe it as an ad hoc unit, where they pull officers from the uniformed services bureau to take up those assignments. our recommendation is they become a stand-alone unit. they become with policies, procedures to train -- not just initial training. initial training is great and wonderful but in order to be truly effective, you need to have continuous education, continuing training, retraining, those are important elements. they need to have a stand-alone unit, whatever size that the department deems appropriate and that's their full-time job. >> you suggested in your report that service in this unit, at least in its ad hoc configuration today, is seen as undesirable by the capitol

police officers. can you explain why that would be, and what can be done to make it a more desirable assignment? and what effect be would that create where you're suggesting a more permanent, prepared and professionalized civil disturbance unit? >> one of the ways you can actually incentivize is the department certainly has the authority to designate certain units has hazardous duty pay, where they will receive additional funds within their normal pay. you can classify -- back like as a firearms instructor for the secret service, we had tech day. to incentivize to get people to actually want to belong to that unit. i firmly believe when you create a specialized unit, stand-alone, that receives the additional training, that receives the recommendations that they are, as you would say,

professionalized, that naturally is going to attract others to want to belong to in an elite unit, that they can take pride in. >> can i ask you -- >> sure. >> -- is one reason we haven't done this before, that it's maintained this ad hoc status because we think that there's not been enough violent, coordinated attacks on the capitol to justify the creation of an independent stand-alone unit within the capitol police, is that why it's not been done before? >> i wouldn't be able to answer that, sir. we haven't conducted any kind of work that would determine the mindset of the department of why it's kept as an ad hoc. only thing we can do is point out our recommendation is they become stand-alone, highly trained unit. >> i appreciate that. here's my final question for you. you made a bunch of

recommendations for reform at the capitol police. can you highlight for us which ones you think are the most important, most urgent and then what you need from us as the principal committee of jurisdiction to help the department implement these reforms? >> as even my opening statement and others pointed out, we need an intelligence bureau. right now it's a intelligence division. it needs to be a full-service comprehensive bureau and some of the elements you will see in our subsequent flash reports where we're going to be recommending some elements within the capitol police be moved over to the intelligence bureau. it needs to be elevated to a bureau level. with that said, they need additional training within the analysts who are going through the intelligence and it comes in, being trained to be able to read it, understand it, disseminate it and have the

knowledge of what -- an example, intelligence is like a puzzle. you get bits and pieces and you've got to formulate a picture. in all of my years of experience doing leads and advances for the president's detail, i have not saw an intelligence document that will say this is exactly what will happen on this date and here's where it is going to be. it's something you have to read in between the lines, disseminate and have trained, professional analysts to be able to do that. training is another. training is critical to have in a department. think of training as your locomotive that's going to pull the rest of the department along. that's your foundation. you have a strong foundation in training that are professionalized, trained and all of these other units that we have, be it k-9 -- or other

houses. it's all training bureau but it's supposed to be office of training. you need the stand-alone training that is going to be comprehensive and full service training bureau. and, again, that would be -- that would fall into a lot of other different things with the training from the highest level, training down to the blood borne pathogens. they control any and all aspects of training. nobody does their own training, own thing, keep their own records. it's all done by training. >> very good. the gentleman from georgia is now recognized. >> we wanted to give you a taste of this hearing. we spent time, you've heard a member of each party question the inspector general there. we're going to keep our eyes on this hearing and we will bring you any news as it happens. of course, if you want to follow the livestream, you can right now. they're livestreaming it from the house committee's website. up next, we have the latest

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welcome back. another capitol hill hearing today. this one features the nation's top health officials, including the cdc director rochelle walensky, dr. anthony fauci and chief science doctor. that wrapped up a few minutes ago. specifically when asked about the johnson & johnson, dr. fauci said the move was made out of an abundance to alert doctors how to treat the clots. and today they declined to vote on the vaccine and recommended extending the pause for at least a week. yesterday's meeting revealed a seventh women developed rare blood clots after getting the j&j vaccine. joining me now, msnbc yasmine

suen. she's in mississippi, where only about a third of the population received one dose and the j&j pause is further hesitation. also with me is dr. paul offit, member of that advisory on the vaccine and director of children's hospital in philadelphia. yasmine, let's talk about what you're seeing in mississippi. before this pause, the j&j vaccine was seen as the most popular among the public. now that has plummeted. we've already seen it in a few surveys. what are you hearing on the ground? >> you're completely right, chuck, it was one of the most-talked about in this state in particular because this is a rural state. a lot of folks hesitant to get a vaccine so the j&j was one and done so for them it was easier to swallow if you get the johnson & johnson. but there's hesitancy across the board. one, it's a rural place. folks have to drive it 25, 30 miles to get the vaccine. they've been hard hit economically.

so it costs a lot of money to get to the clinics and get a taxi service to a clinic. of course, if you don't have a car or pay for gas to get you to a clinic. some folks don't trust the development in the discovery of the vaccine and some folks don't have internet, especially elderly folks, have the information to understand how to get the vaccine and where to get the vaccine. i talked to pam chatman. she's someone who helped organize getting vaccines to folks in these rural areas, chuck, and here's what she had to say about the pause in the j&j vaccine. >> we were all excited because we had so many people committed to taking the j&j be as soon as we informed them that they have taken it off the shelves, they panicked. everybody left. they canceled they are appointments. we had local industries that committed to bringing their employees over to get vaccinated and no one wanted it. not that they said i don't want it, they just didn't want it and didn't want to take moderna, they were out. >> look, chuck, they're pressing

forward with this thing. this is a ground game for them in these rural communities. it is door knocking, right? it's leaflets, it's billboards on the highways because folks are driving all the time, to encourage folks where to get the vaccine, when they can get the vaccine. pam chatman herself was here earlier today. she initially wanted the johnson & johnson today. she came to get the moderna vaccine to be an example for so many individuals who are hesitant to get this vaccine. really, this is the bible belt, as you well know, chuck, be and they're engaging church leaders, pastors of churches to talk to their congregates about the vaccine, educate them about the efficacy of the moderna vaccine, which is offered here, and pfizer vaccine, which is offered at pharmacies around mississippi. >> yasmine, in mississippi, thank you for that report there. and let me bring in dr. offit. i'm curious if you share the

frustration that many sort of outside efforts expressed yesterday, including people we see on this program frequently, doctors patel and dr. jha who said not saying anything was the worst outcome yesterday, that there was no initial guidance. the pause was one thing but there was no indication where we're headed. did that potentially do more long-term damage to the perception of the j&j vaccine? >> i think we're about to find that out. what i would have preferred might have happened is the advisory committee immunization practices when they met yesterday at some point trusted the american public and said here's a side effect that's real. i think the thrombosis is real and serious but it's extraordinarily rare. it occurs in roughly 1 per million people. remember if you take a million people infected with covid,

roughly 18,000 will die. that's also another problem, because there are no risk-free choices. just different choices take different risks. if it comes to be -- the mrna vaccines don't do this, pfizer and moderna do not have this risk. you can argue, great, we will use the other vaccines. what worries me is there will be people who will not get a vaccine at all because of what just happened with the johnson & johnson vaccine, or worse, there is going to be a general feeling all of these vaccines are a problem. and if fewer and fewer people get vaccinated, you will have trouble getting to herd immunity, in which you effectively slow the spread of the virus and we've done more harm than good. >> i would say i accept the idea they're treating us as adults until yesterday. yesterday i feel as though they did not treat the american public as adults. if they treated us as adults, they would lay everything out as you said. here are the risks. we will line up the risk of getting covid. here are those risks.

and we're telling you, okay, here are the facts. but these risks aren't high enough for us to cancel this vaccine and here's why. that would be treating -- trusting the american people. it seems as if that's where the trust was lacking. >>lacking. >> no, i agree with you. i think people generally don't understand risk. i think when you tell them something is occurring in 1 in 100, 1 in a million, 1 in 1 billion, but i think you should trust people a little more to understand that it is extremely rare. and it's a single-dose vaccine, it is refrigerator stable for a long time. there are definitely advantages, but i don't doubt that there are people now who won't be vaccinated because of what's happened. they should have made a recommendation yesterday to make it clear how public health officials can best move forward

and they punted. >> what do you do if you're j&j now? let me throw out a hypothesis and this is probably dangerous since i don't have a science degree of any kind, medical or otherwise, but would you cut down on the risk if the j&j dose was split into two and you had sort of -- there was a pause in between the two doses? is it something about it that since it seems to be something that happens within a week of getting it, is it too much of one dose? and if you're j&j, do you look at that as a way of trying to restore some confidence in the vaccine? >> that would be making it up. it's a windows vaccine right now. the biological base problem is the same as the astrazeneca vaccine, which is you make an antibody response by a protein that causes platelets to be activated. we know that. what it would take to decrease

that immune response for something that is so rare as to be one in a million, i don't know yet. i don't think we know that yet. until we know more, we can't do that. >> at this point, resolution in less than a week. is that your only hope here? or if this thing drags on, are we going to take a real body blow globally? >> this is what bothers me about this. you know the astrazeneca vaccine and the j&j vaccine are very similar. you know they have the same problem. you know that problem is rare. you know that problem is based on the same pathogenesis. why wait another week, two weeks, three weeks? maybe you'll find other cases. maybe you'll find it's not 1 in a million, it's 1 in 250,000. either way, it's rare. by suspending this and calling it a pause, people see it as

abandoning this vaccine, and i think it's going to take a long time to sort of recoup how we perceive that vaccine. >> australia canceled their order, and south africa no longer has a vaccine that is circulating because j&j is the one that they had approved. dr. paul offit, i really appreciate you providing your expertise to us. with that, we're going to sneak in one more break. we'll be right back. one more b. we'll be right back. your clothes can repel pet hair. one bounce mega sheet has 3x the hair fighting ingredients of the leading dryer sheet. simply toss into the dryer to bounce out hair & lint. look how the shirt on the left attracts pet hair like a magnet! pet hair is no match for bounce. it's available in fresh scent & unscented. with bounce, you can love your pets, and lint roll less. introducing colliders. ♪ if you love it, spoon it.

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welcome back. if it is thursday, it means we also have a new episode of our streaming show "meet the press reports." tonight top intelligence officials said russia and one of the top threats to cyberattacks, period. the less technical we become, the more vulnerable we are. the dangers of zero day attacks and the problems of cyber offense when you haven't focused on cyber defense. it's on tonight at 8:00 p.m. on peacock. you can see it's been a busy day on and around the country. we'll be back with more "meet the press daily." our coverage continues with katy tur right after the break. h katy tur right after the break.

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good afternoon, i'm katy tur. there is a flurry of breaking news as we come onto the air. we are awaiting a court hearing in several minutes in which the officer who shot and killed daunte wright is expected to be formally charged with second degree manslaughter. stay right here. also breaking right now, in chicago officials are expected to release the police body cam video of the shooting death of 13-year-old adam toledo. chicago police are bracing for protests. much more on this in just a moment. torp but first to minneapolis where the defense has wrapped up its case in the derek chauvin murder trial without derek chauvin taking the stand. >> have you made a decision today whether you intend to testify or whether you intend to invoke your fifth amendment privilege? >> i will invoke my fifth amendment privilege today. >> is this your decision not to testify? >> it is, your honor. >> do you have any questions