so, on one hand, was the police doing the right thing in chasing him and trying to apprehend him? on the other hand, they gave him an order to drop the weapon and put his hands up, and then he did it and got shot. >> ali, first of all, thank you for having me. secondly, our system is so broken, it is so skewed against black and brown americans that the real issue is the fact that we can bring a dylan roof into custody after verifiable information that he has murdered nine people. the young man walking down the street in the midof a protest of ar-15 after killing people in cold blood walks past the police and gets a drink of water while he does so. what i don't like to do is one-off this. the one-offs are not going to fix this issue. the system is so morally corrupt and broken that at the end of the day, the issue is that black and brown people continually are

killed, as with mr. telejdo. he followed the instructions of the officer to a tee. what more can you ask of someone in such a tense situation? the officer is the trained professional. the 13-year-old is a kid that, unfortunately, will never live to see his potential. the ironic thing is, he turned, he lifted his hands. his hands were empty and after following all commands, he still ended up dead. ali, i'm of the opinion, and i think it's a very informed opinion, that we cannot reform policing. we have to defund it, degree construct it and rebuild it from scratch. to do the same thing the same way and expect a different result is the defense of insanity. >> nikima, let's talk about what he said. one officer is not going to fix the issue.

in the trial of derek chauvin it's a one-off that's not a one-off. it represents the lived experience of so many people in their interactions with police. so many people around this country are watching along with that trial, watching that video saying, we told you this is how things go down, even though this is the specific instance of what derek chauvin did to george floyd. talk to me about what you think happens as a result of the george floyd trial. does that underscore what the chief said that, this underscores the experience that black and brown people have with police? >> absolutely. it's important for people to remember and understand is that the only reason derek chauvin was on trial in the first place is because we, the people, took to the streets. we demanded justice. we demanded that governor waltz actually get the attorney general involved because the local county prosecutor could not be trusted to prosecute a killer cop. so, it is the whole system that

is working in concert to produce racist and inequitable results for people of color. many of us felt that when george floyd was down on the pavement with derek chauvin's knee on his neck, that is symbolic of our 400 years of history as black people in this country constantly facing oppression, facing gas lighting, people telling us that our experience is not legitimate and not listening to us. and then when something as egregious as the murder of george floyd is caught on video, people act surprised. and we're thinking, this is what we've been telling you all along. if american society would listen to black people, would hear our perspectives on how to change the system, then i believe that things would begin to shift. but as long as you have white people in power who are privileged, who don't share the soor same experiences and lack empathy, regardless of what

system you build, you're going to have similar results. >> chief, talk to me about what this redoing the system from the ground up looks like in places like where you were chief in detroit or in chicago where there are a lot of guns and there is a lot of violence. these are not always calls that can be responded to by well-trained, you know, social workers or people who are familiar with life on the street. what's that look like in those places where the civilians, black and white, who live in those cities both say we have crime that needs to be dealt with? how do you foresee that changing? >> first of all, crime is a byproduct of socioeconomic factors. until we wrap our arms around that and start to deal with the poverty issues, inequities in education, inequities of housing, inequities of job opportunities, inequities of

wealth and the wealth gap, those have to be dealt with. the reality is there are 18,000 police agencies. we get caught up in having one good police chief in this area, one good police chief in that area. we have 18,000 disparate police stations, over policing black and brown and poor communities you'll never be able to fix this problem with some of these -- that's why i keep referring to one-offs. systemically, we have to build it from the ground up. it goes back to slave patrols and slave codes. when you consider that, what happens really changed over the years between jim crow reconstruction? the reality is police are indoctrinated to protect and serve white and affluent communities but they're indoctrine ated also to enforce laws and overpolice through

violence, fear and intimidation in black, brown and poor communities. until that construct is completely demolished and destroyed, we're going to continue to get what we've been getting. >> nekima, i want to bring us back to the story we all watched last week of this lieutenant who was pulled over in maryland and ultimately pepper sprayed. there was a whole lot of anger and hostility going on in that video. the police department, the chief has said i wish he would have complied a whole lot earlier. i'm going to own what we did wrong. i can't speak for him but i'm going to own what we did. my guys missed the opportunity to verbally de-escalate that thing and change the outcome. i wish he would have complied a whole lot earlier. this gentleman in the military uniform had said that when he was pulled over, it was a dark area. he drove slowly for a mile to get to a little area gas station, which is something a lot of people have learn houd to do. be somewhere, where there might be other people around, where there's light, but the police

are putting it on him. >> they always put these issues on the people who are just minding their own business and get pulled over. there's such a heavy focus on compliance with law enforcement that if you do not do exactly what the police tell you to do, they think that it's a license to beat you and to kill you. we have seen time and time again, like in the case of philandro castille, they still use it as a justification to use deadly force. and then when those circumstances happen, we have the majority population, we have white people saying they deserved it. if only they had done this. if their parents had raised them right, if they didn't live in x kind of community, this wouldn't have happened. that, to me, is an abomination.

i can only imagine the excuses when people were lynched in this country and we have similar dynamics today. that lieutenant probably saved his own life by mosque into a well-lit area and reaching his hands out of the window but it shurt shouldn't take all of that. kyle rittenhouse, 17-year-old, could shoot up a protest, literally kill people and walk away, as the chief said and go back home like nothing ever happened. so we live in a country that has two different systems of justice. one for white people and one for everyone else. it's really unconscionable and it is beyond time for change. >> chief, i get and hear your point that this shouldn't be about one-offs. what we have, however, is a cascading collection of one-offs that might need to be relooked at. tamir rice, 12-year-old killed by police in cleveland, has

requested that the department of justice reopen the investigation. it was closed under the last administration in december. maybe it's valuable to reopen some of these things and look at them with the new lens that the last year has given us. >> i do see the value. and i'm not diminishing the quest for justice in these individual cases, but what i don't want this to become is fool's gold. you get a prosecution here and a prosecution there. that does not fix, nor does it mitigate the historical wrongs. nor had it prevent some more tamir rices, more adam telejdos. if we don't ultimately fix the system and get sugar highs off a conviction, you still have 18,000 police agencies that the fbi has warned us for years that infiltration by white supremacists have already started in the ranks. you add that on top of a

structural system that is systemically racist and, let me say this, ali, it doesn't always matter what the race of the officer is if the system is racist. half the officers indicted in the freddie gray case are african-american. the system failed them and continues to fail black and brun americans and it was never designed for black and brown americans. we're trying to fix a system that is toe so morally corrupt and broken that if we don't have the intestinal fortitude as a country, to show that we can fix this and not through band-aids and temporary measures but realize that the system is not protecting all americans. >> ali, if i can respond to that -- >> go ahead, nekima. go ahead. >> because we are one-off prosecutions happening all the time in black and brown

communities and no one says, oh, we shouldn't prosecute that individual person or that individual person. those individuals are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. and the victims in those cases get some form of satisfaction from knowing that the perpetrator is going to spend time in prison. the same should happen for police officers who violate people's rights and kill people. i got satisfaction in seeing the officer who killed daunte wright wearing an orange prison jump suit because she sent many black people to prison with that same jump suit on. i will have satisfaction if derek chauvin is having to face black men in prison he helped put away. yes, the system needs to change. meantime, each individual officer who kills someone needs to be charged to the fullest extent of the law, convicted and spent time in prison. >> and i think the wisdom of both of you makes sense. these are not mutually exclusive

ideas. thank you for making them so clear. former president of the minneapolis naacp. ralph godbee is the former chief of police in the city of detroit. appreciate your time this morning. coming up on "velshi," denouncing voter suppression, but some of the big ones are sitting this one out. wait till you hear why. >> a key meeting between two very unlikely individuals, a klan member and black community organizer that holds clues to how we can fight the nexus of hate in america. bills targeting transgender people is sweeping through states. the inspiring pint-sized hero who is taking up the fight. >> everybody -- more people are with you than against you and, trust me, it will get better. an, trust me, it will get better we didn't stop at computers. we didn't stop at storage or cloud. we kept going.

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33 state legislatures this year have introduced bills to restrict the rights of transgender americans and increasingly these attacks are aimed at children. arkansas became the first state to pass a law. two anti-trans bills are being weighed in the state legislature, one goes so far to redefine the term child abuse to include giving kids hormone treatments. a 10-year-old girl has stepped into this fight in a major way. her testimony against those bills has gone viral and is for good reason. it should be required viewing for anyone who thinks they know what's best for trans kids. >> hello. my name is kya schauffle. i love ballet. i spend time with my cats, chickens, face timing my friends

and dreaming of when i will finally meet dolly parton. i don't like spending my free time asking adults to make good decisions. legislators have been attacking me since prek. i'm in fourth grade now. when it comes to bills that target trans youth, i immediately feel angry. it's been very scary and overwhelming. it just makes me sad that some politicians use trans kids like me to get votes from people who hate me just because i exist. god made me. god loves me for who i am and god does not make mistakes. >> kai shapley was sand different gender at birth. she knew at age 3 she was a girl and began her transition. young trans people like her whose rights are under attack and this, even as new polling

suggests that the majority of the country is on kai's side here. 67% of adults surveyed oppose state laws barring trans people from competing in sports consistent with their gender identity and that includes 66% of republicans who were asked the question. perhaps more importantly, 66% oppose state laws banning trans minors from receiving gender-affirming health care, including hormone treatments and other procedures that help align a person with gender identity, including a whopping 77% of republicans in the poll. a small segment of americans to scapegoat in order to win votes from their base, trying to harm trans children like kai shapley who simply want to live their lives. we were able to chat with kai and her mom before i came on air this morning, delivering a message of hope. >> well, it's quite scary living in texas as a trans kid, because

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>> we stand for democracy. that's what dozen of companies like netflix, google and amazon have said after they came out against voter suppression efforts earlier this year. home depot, walmart and jp morgan have decided not to sign on to this statement, which also holds that companies should have a responsibility to defend the right to vote. walmart said we are not in the business of partisan politics. walmart is increasingly being asked to weigh in on broader issues such as civil rights. it's interesting that corporations of walmart are trying to argue that they are not in the business of partisan politics because they quite openly are. they spend millions of dollars on lobbying for tax and employment policies that benefit them financially they support candidates who defeat other

candidates. that's partisan politics. some companies sitting out this round of advocacy for basic voting rights think it was enough to release a statement once and they're done. that's it. jp morgan said they already made a statement. so they don't need to sign on to the letter. home depot, all electrics should be accessible and secure. so why not sign the letter? these companies have power, leverage, money. why pull up short now when voting rights are actually at stake? joining me now is erin haynes. also with me, jelani cobb. both are msnbc contributors and friendsment aaron, let's start with you. maybe i'm too close to this as a business and economics reporter. it is gas lighting for companies to say we don't want to be involved in politics.

it's just dpas lighting. companies have put more money into politics through pacs and lobbying directly than any other voter in america ever has. >> no, you're right, ali. it's not just your imagination. these are companies saying they do or don't want to be involved in the voting rights issue. but the idea that were whether they're involved in politics is simply not true. walmart for instance, has definitely weighed in in recent years on the gun issue after there was pressure for mass shootings for walmart to take certain guns out of their stores, to deal with the issue of ammunition or, you know, certain types of weapons. walmart, that was definitely a very political issue that walmart did take a stand on and that walmart did make a statement about. if not explicitly in writing,

certainly through their policy and business decision. >> jelani, why this issue, then? companies came out in favorite of black lives matter, didn't seem to struggle as much with that. though some companies did. why is this one hard? because of republican framing that it's about voter fraud and companies don't want to come out looking like they're okay with voter fraud? what's going on, as far as you can see? >> they came out in favor of black lives matter after the video of george floyd's horrifying death came out. and it became -- the calculus became different. they began to look political by not saying that black lives matter. and so that became, for a moment at least, the most safe position for people to occupy. now i think it's the same thing. there's been so much shrapnel thrown into our political

climate in the wake of the contentious election we had last year that they really muddied the boundary. they succeeded in muddying the boundaries to make it seem that voting rights is somehow an issue that's in dispute or something that is on the table where reasonable people can have different positions on it. that's not the case. certainly not for home depot, operating in atlanta, and the donation that they made to the establishment of the civil rights museum. when it appears to be in their interests, many of these organizations and corporations will say that we are in favor of civil rights. we loved dr. king. we support john lewis, et cetera, et cetera, except when there are contemporaneous issues about standing up to make sure the things those people were fighting against aren't becoming part of our present politic. >> stick around for a minute. i've got more to discuss with you after a quick break, errin

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>> welcome back to "velshi." errin haynes with me and jelani cobb from the new yorker. this is part of the see if you can break the code part of the

show. debating some kind of america first caucus or party, evolution from the tea party and freedom caucus and all of this. it's about putting america first, about putting americans first, about american architecture. what's the code there? what are they doing? >> well, i mean, it's trying to resurrect trumpism and also given what the america first committee actually stood for and its fascist elements and anti-semitic elements. they're just saying the quiet part out loud now. >> errin, what do you think? marjorie taylor green, believe it or not, put out a statement, suggesting she's not as involved in this as reports might have implied. they released a staff level draft proposal from an outside group that i hadn't read. the scum and liars in the media are calling me a racist by taking things out of contest.

i had planned to drive president trump's america first agenda with my congressional colleagues but we won't let the media or anyone else push the narrative. what do you think of that? >> i don't really know how we're taking things like anglosaxon out of context, but what i would say is that, you know, as we sit here this morning, yes, it is maybe less clear exactly who is on board with the american first caucus. we saw some of the people who are definitely not on board with the america first caucus, with kevin mccarthy and liz cheney denouncing this caucus and saying that there's no place in america for nativist dog whistles. it's true to jelani's point, when i was on the campaign trail last year, what i heard from a lot of conservative voters was even if they were uncomfortable with some of the president's rhetoric when he was on twitter, even if they didn't like some of the things he said or the way

that he said it, they were absolutely on board with a lot of his agenda. and i think that those who are still on board with the former president's platform are -- understand it is politically viable for a significant amount of the population, many of whom happen to be republicans. and so continuing to espouse and promote this agenda and trying to keep it going, even as president trump is out of office, the idea that trumpism is out of office, i think, is premature. because what we know is that, you know, he, at least at this point, is very much the standard bearer of this party. >> yeah, and some of these issues -- go ahead. go ahead, jelani. i'm sorry. >> specifically that language of anglosaxonnism is very important. people who are cognizant of the history of race in this country,

tucker carlson and racial replacement paranoia and these ideas, a real return to like the classic 19th century incarnations of racism, where they believe only specific people were capable of democracy. that's what anglosaxonnism was. unless you were descend from that specific strand of european ancestry or the germans, that you weren't really capable of participating in a democratic society. and then in 1955, when emmitt till was killed and his killers were set free, the defense attorneys said before the jury went to deliberation, i'm sure that each anglosaxon one of you has the courage to acquit these men. that harkens to the worst, most undiluted strains of american racism. and that's exactly what they were trying to reincarnate there. >> yeah. maybe there's no code in that

part of things. they're actually saying the quiet parts out loud. thanks to both of you. good to see you as always. errin haynes and jelani cobb, staff writer for the new yorker. it's been an exhausting time in america but no one feels it quite as deeply as our black brothers and sisters. john that happen capehart wrote about that topic with the title "being black in america is exhausting." quote, there's no one way to be black in america but there's one way we live while black in america, no matter our gender, age, socioeconomic status. we are viewed as threats. as a result we live under siege. my friend, jonathan, joins me now. remarkable piece in which you say every black person you know goes through some form of mental calculus before they start their day. something to think about. >> yeah. ali, thank you very much. thanks for highlighting this piece, which will be expanded on

that at the byline at the end of the show. african-americans have to think bay lot of things before we leave home, luke what whoo walker, our route to work, how we'll navigate going toing from point a to point b. going from work to maybe the company's softball game, shopping for cars. you name it. our days are not simply just running errands. it's about making sure that we can run those errands safely. >> that's remarkable. you've got a big show coming up by the way, jonathan. ben crump, the family attorney for george floyd, joins the sunday show ahead of the closing arguments in the chauvin trial. john than, you're also going to talk to dr. anthony fauci on the show. a lot going on here starting at the top of the hour at 10:00 a.m. eastern here on msnbc. don't miss it. thanks, jonathan. >> thanks. working encharrette.

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charrette, do you know the word? it's french, it means cart, like chariot. when students would work in a room together right up until a deadline while a charrette or cart would be wheeled among them to collect their work for review. all that frenzied activity in the final minutes came to be referreded to came to be referred to as working en charrette. in 1971, an unlikely pairing of a black organizer and member of the ku klux klan were asked to work collaboratively.

ann atwater and cp ellis were that unlikely pairing. each chosen for the same reason because their connection to the matter made them perfect for each side of the issue. both had children in durham schools. ann atwater distrusted all white people and wouldn't take no for an answer. cp ellis was a leader in the local chapter of the ku klux klan. they didn't like each other but their collaboration morphed into a plan. he ripped up his kkk membership card. real-life events were portrayed in a recent hollywood movie "the best of enemies," putting people with opposing ideas in a room for ten days to work it all out. acquaint. that's what our democracy is

based upon and we're doing a terrible job of it right now. to have constructive discussions about real issues slips away daily as anxiety and fear seeps in. less common ground, wisdom. discourse has been replaced by gas lighting, trolling and zero sum thinking. anti-trans bills, anti-immigrant sentiment. radical politicians. everything say cultural wedge. we are wired to defend our values and principles and prnl beliefs from anyone or anything we feel is attacking them. in fact, that's the only common theme left. everyone in america feels like they're under attack. while there are gaps in consensus, there are no longer bridges. where there were one sides that try to work together there's infinish infinite corners. there's your side and there's the wrong side. ann atwater and cp ellis could have gone that way but didn't.

the klansman, ellis' views evolveed but atwater made the choice not to disengage, not to isolate or ignore him, despite views that he held that were not just abhorent but dangerous to her. they remained friends until the day he died, she delivered a eulogy at his funeral. as distasteful as it feels in times like this, working en charrette may be the only way to create durable change. create durable change. that means... best burger ever. intuit quickbooks helps small businesses be more successful with payments, payroll, and banking. ♪♪ ♪♪ [ engines revving ] ♪♪

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we have a remarkably hard time having conversations across ideological lines in this nation. often it's easier to ignore and work against those with whom we disagree politically. that can't be our destiny as an inclusive pluralistic society. how do we tolerate and appreciate the value of people who sometimes refuse to tolerate us? joining me now, joanne freeman from yale university. she's the author of "field of blood:violence in congress and the road to civil war." and arlie hawksfield for the uc berkeley sociology department and the author of "being strangers in their own land." i'm so happy to have you both here for this conversation. you are two of my favorite people who study this issue. arlie, the reason i wanted to talk to you, you lived this

world before the moment we were in. you went down to louisiana and you spent time amongst people who held views that were very foreign to those that you existed around. so you learned a little bit about this. what have you learned and written about that could inform us in this moment of deep political disagreement? >> well, you know, i've learned that, first of all, you need a goal to try and talk across the way. and i found that people on the right, that tea party people that became enthusiasts for donald trump already in -- before he was elected. that they want to talk across -- but what's missing is we don't have the vehicles. we used to have the compulsory draft and unions that mixed and

matched us across races and classes. so we need vehicles. we need skills. and we need models. and i found the most amazing models of people who did communicate really well, despite their differences. and our goal should not be to convince the other but just to disagree better and see if there's common ground. i found there's quite a lot. >> joanne, how serious a moment is this? is it more or less than our -- some of our worst moments in american history? is this going to just work itself out or could it end up being one of the worst things america has gone through, this polarization and nativism we have going on? >> you're asking an historian to predict the future. i cannot do that. however, what i can say is there

certainly have been other moments in american history where we've been extremely polarized, where there's been violence and threat of violence where people have been "othering" each other. i'm american, you're un-american. those have happened before. those are all extreme moments, always dangerous moments and tipcally violent moments. the late 1790s when they were debating how democratic a nation the united states should be. the 1850s when the question of slavery is being debated. the 1960s when civil rights are really being debated. those are hyperpolarized moments. what's interesting to be diplomatic about it now is we do have some people now who are just, rather than saying, you're un-american, i don't like you, i don't agree with you, you need to be punished, we have people essentially saying we're going to push you out of this country. we're going to silence you. and that's a profoundly, to say the least, anti-democratic and

given what america stands for, given it hasn't necessarily met what it stands for but what it claims to stand for is an un-american idea. as you are suggesting in your comments, ali, we're about -- or we should be about debate and compromise on a national level, and on a lower level, we should be able to engage with each other. i will add the fact that i don't think you can say that everything has two sides. i think that we get civility and discourse sometimes confused with both what people call both sidesism and i don't think those are the same thing. >> yeah, yeah. >> let's explore that, arlie. you did explore that. you spoke with people who were seeming to be very honest about what their feelings were, but they held views about women, about immigrants, that did stand in contrast to views you hold or held and in some cases seemed to not be informed by facts.

so how do you correlate that? how do you deal with the fact that is that another side of the immigration issue? is that another side of certain issues or are they just wrong? >> right. we confuse getting to empathize with another person with agreeing with them or giving up your side. i think those are totally different things. let me give you an example of a guy i met who was the best person in five years of research at reaching another side. this is general russel honore, the rescuer of the victims of katrina in 2005. now a big environmentalist. and one day i watched him. a big environmentalist, and louisiana has, you know, contaminated public waters. big petrol center. and he was talking to a lake

charles businessman whose big symbol was freedom. you know, freedom to start a business. freedom from onerous regulation of polluters, okay? so you have this big environmentalist talking to these guys who don't want to hear about regulations, and he -- and their thing is freedom. well, here's how he did it. he said, well, i woke up this morning. i went out. i saw lake charles. saw a man in a boat. and that man had his line out, but that man is not free to lift out an uncontaminated fish? so what did he do? he took freedom, their big symbol -- didn't say oh, look, you know, i'm for regulation. he started with their symbol and showed they weren't free at all to, you know, if you have cancer, if you are a big hunter and you're hunting for game that are contaminated how free are

you? so he did a symbol stretch, i would call it, and i think we need to learn how to do that. >> joanne, your final comments on how you deal with -- because this both sides issue is really the issue. what do you do when you believe someone's view is uninformed. can you imagine to empathize with them and then figure out how you can agree to disagree or move on from the conversation? >> well, as someone who spends a lot of time as a professor and a teacher and a public speaker, trying to engage with people and trying to spread ideally information, i can vouch for the fact that over the last few years that's become increasingly difficult. one thing i'll throw in here, and i certainly don't have a solution to it, but it represents a way in which what we're going through now is different from what we've gone through before. and that is words and actions are very close together. by that i mean you say something and within a nanosecond it's all

over the world through social media which means words and actions can be almost simultaneous, right? there's no comfortable distance between someone saying something and then there being a moment of explanation. so technolog is confusing this moment in a lot of ways and in some ways, making it more dangerous and more difficult to deal with. >> thank you both for having a bit of this discussion with me. it's a big piece to bite off. we don't have solutions, but we do have the ability to discuss. joanne freeman from yale university. arlie, is from uc berkeley's sociology department. that does it for me. thank you for watching "velshi." catch me every saturday and sunday. have a great weekend, but don't go anywhere. don't miss jonathan capehart's interview with dr. anthony fauci on "the sunday show." it starts now. the jury prepares to get the

derek chauvin case amid new disturbing police killings. the reverend al sharpton and benjamin crump are here to discuss. so there was collusion? adam schiff will talk about new details about former trump campaign chair paul manafort. and america's new hard-line on russia. dr. anthony fauci is here to talk about vaccines and that contentious hearing that led to this. >> you need to respect the chair and shut your mouth. >> that was congresswoman maxine waters. she'll be here to talk about that and george floyd live from minneapolis. i'm jonathan capehart. this is "the sunday show." this sunday, the murder trial of derek chauvin is nearing its close. the defense and prosecution will make their closing arguments tomorrow morning. after that, it's in the