>> always. >> yes. >> always. >> she had a magic smile. it was infectious. she was smiling, everybody else had to. ♪ ♪ this sunday, a vaccine pause. >> this is all the johnson & johnson that i can't use. >> health officials temporarily stop the use of the johnson & johnson vaccine. >> this, in fact, is a confirmation of how seriously we take safety. >> after at least eight people suffered dangerous blood clots. >> you're talking about tens and tens and tens of millions of people who have received vaccine with no adverse effect. this is a really rare event. >> the u.s. still has enough vaccines, but what about the world? >> the world is probably going to have a setback. in the end, that sets back the

united states. >> my guest this morning, dr. anthony fauci and governor gretchen whitmer of michigan which has seen the biggest take of cases nationwide. another week of gun violence. >> there was no confrontation with anyone that was there. there was no disturbance, no argument. he just appeared to randomly start shooting. >> and criticism of deadly policing. >> taser, taser, taser! [ bleep ]. >> i just shot him. >> with protests in cities across the country. plus the former speaker speaks. >> there's nothing worse than a reckless jackass who thinks he's smarter than everybody else. >> john boehner goes after his former colleagues for the party's sharp turn to the right. but what role did he play in making the party what it is today? >> now looking backwards, do you think you should have done more? >> my interview with john boehner. joining me are nbc chief correspondent current kristen

welker, eddie glaude jr. of princeton university, anna palm palmer founder of punch bowl news and senior eder to of "the dispatch" david fren. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. there was no shortages of big stories this week, criticism of police tactics, yet another mass shooting, this one in indianapolis. troop withdrawal from a war zone. president biden tried to flip and then flop on immigration policy. the news that garnered the biggest headlines came when federal health agencies temporarily halted injections of johnson & johnson vaccines because a small number of people suffered blood clots after receiving them. while it's not clear what connection, if any, there is between the vaccine and this clotting, the halt is likely to have profound implications, however temporary it is. will people ever feel confident about getting the j&j shot?

>> will vaccine skeptics use this incident to erode confidence in all the vaccines? will developing countries feel the less attractive j&j vaccine is being dumped on them? most of all, will this further damage trust in government? after the federal advisory committee announced it had nothing more to announce. for four years there was little to trust what was coming out of the white house. now this j&j pause is the biden administration's first speed bump. how it handles it will go a long way in determining trust in this new presidency. >> we had so many people committed to taking the j&j. as soon as we informed them that they had taken it off the shelves, they panicked. >> when complications came behind it, i decided huh-uh, no. >> my family had appointments today. they all canceled. >> this week, a pause on johnson & johnson's vaccine.

>> i have always told you i'm going to tell you the truth and i'm going to lead with science. cdc and fda were alerted to six cases of rare types of blood clots. >> 7.8 million americans have already received the j&j vaccine. the eight people who have now been identified with a rare clotting disorder experienced it in the first two weeks. roughly 3.8 million people were still within that risk window when the cdc made its announcement on wednesday. >> tens and tens and tens of millions of people have received vaccine with no adverse effect. this is a really rare event. >> i'm not worried at all. i mean, it is a really minute percentage. i felt great after my shot. >> the cdc advisory committee won't meet until friday to decide whether or not to extend the pause. public health officials worry it is already having a devastating effect on vaccine hesitancy. even before the announcement, according to "usa today," the

number of counties with unfulfilled appointments at wall bhart, walmart, cvs and right waid was up by about 60% in a week. >> going to be a little more of a messaging challenge. we've got to rebuild any lack of confidence as a result of this pause. >> hesitancy is particularly acute among conservatives. in polling conducted before the pause, more than 40% of republicans said they do not plan to get any covid vaccine. >> ideology, whatever your concerns, it is a very safe and effective vaccine. >> country music star brad paisley is among those urging his fans to get vaccinated. >> empty seats can't cheer. when it's your turn to get the vaccine, be a fan, take the shot. >> for me as a scientist who is also a christian, this is an answer to a lot of prayers. >> fueling concerns, hospitalizations continue to rise, up 9% over the last two weeks. >> patients are again lining our

hallways like they were last spring. this situation is very serious. >> this is a race against the clock. >> michigan is in a state of crisis, accounting for more than 10% of the country's daily cases. >> our test positivity rate is hovering around 18%. two dozen hospitals are at 90% capacity or higher. >> very overrun, all the hospitals are. >> joining me is dr. anthony fauci, the director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases. dr. fauci, welcome back to "meet the press." let's start with obviously the concerns of a lot of folks, the state of the johnson & johnson vaccine. you anticipate we will at least know something more definitive come friday when the advisory committee meets next? >> i'm fairly certain of that, chuck. i think by friday we'll know which way we're going on this. hopefully we'll get back on track, but i don't think there's going to be anything that will linger beyond that.

i hope not. i don't think so. in hindsight, given -- i'm sure you've seen the survey, since the announcement of the pause, vaccine hesitancy is up. we've seen vaccine appointment goes unfilled. i know you made the case, please, the fact we're telling you should give you more confidence, not less. but unfortunately, it appears it is the reverse. do you look at how this sort of spiraled out here and won wondered if there should have been a different way you guys handled this? >> well, you know, what we do, chuck, and that's what we keep saying, we leave it to the science. we have the experienced fda and cdc people looking at it. there's one case, then two, three, four. then when they got to six, they said we really need to pause. hopefully it will be a quite temporary pause to do a couple of things. one, examine that hopefully there are not several more out there, to alert physicians, stay

heads-up for this. we're concerned it's a very serious complication, although it is extremely rare as you well put. you have six cases in close to 7 million people. the other thing about it, chuck, that's important is that you want to let the physicians out there know who might see women or anybody with this condition, that the standard way you would think about treating clots is with the anticoagulant heparin. that would be contraindicated in this case because heparin could actually make things worse. there's a two-fold reason for doing it, one to pause and take a more detailed look at it, and two, to make sure physicians treat people appropriately. >> did you work with european regulators on this on the astrazeneca vaccine. these two vaccines are made with similar technology seem to be having a similar issue with blood clots in a certain segment of the population.

i guess the question is, could you have made a designation that was a bit more narrow and say women -- dr. peter hotez was saying it's possible we'll end up saying women who are taking birth control shouldn't take the j&j vaccine. why not make a specific group on the pause rather than the entire population? >> i don't think we have enough information to do that, chuck, quite honestly. because when you talk to our colleagues in europe, particularly in the uk, it isn't only women. there are men involved and it isn't always associated with birth control by any means. so i think we have to be careful. we did not have enough information to make a narrow restriction off the bat. when we get more information, and that's what we're talking about friday, it may be by the time you get to friday, that they will say, okay, we've looked into it now, here are some of the restrictions. i think it would have been too early to have restrictions without looking more closely at it.

>> the third shots. both the ceos of moderna and pfizer have indicated it's likely we'll need a third shot. there are some people are going to hear, when pharmaceutical ceos say it, they might raise an eyebrow. i assume this is going to be a federal government decision. what can you tell us about your -- where we are in the research about the need for a third shot? >> you're absolutely correct. it is going to be a public health decision, not a decision made by a pharmaceutical company. we're partners with them because they're supplying it. it will be an fda/cdc decision. the cdc will use their advisory committee and immunization practices the way they always do. we'll look at the durability of the response. namely measure the antibodies. we'll get hopefully soon the correlate of immunity. if the correlate goes down and you see it start to slope down, you can project when it's going

to be so low that you want to have a danger of having breakthrough infections. when that happens, clearly you're going to see a recommendation for a boost. the other thing is you might start seeing more breakthrough infections that go beyond the level of the efficacy of the vaccine, and then you might also make a decision to do it. it will be a public health-based decision, not a pharmaceutical company-based situation. >> going back to johnson & johnson. what's more likely, that we'll still use the johnson & johnson vaccine with some restrictions, or is it very possible we don't use it at all? >> everything is on the table. again, i'm telling you i don't know. so it doesn't come back and bounce back at me. my estimate is that we will continue to use it in some form. i doubt very seriously if they just cancel it. i don't think that's going to happen. i do think that there will

likely be some sort of warning or restriction or risk assessment. i don't think it's going to go back and say, okay, everything is fine, go right back. i think it will be we're going to use it, but be careful under these circumstances. >> the idea of life back to normal after you've been vaccinated. governor ron desantis from florida thinks the messaging has been muddled. you tell people on one hand you've got to be vaccinated, but still have to social distance. he's concerned, and he's not alone here, that it almost defeats the incentive to get the vaccination. it shouldn't, but it can. why does a vaccinated person have to wear a mask? >> okay. this is something that, as we get more information, it's going to be pulling back that you don't have to. currently the reason is, when you get vaccinated you are clearly diminishing dramatically your risk of getting infected. that's one of the things we have to make sure everybody understands, you dramatically

diminish it. however, what happens is you might get infected and get absolutely no symptoms and not know you're infected and inadvertently go into a situation with vulnerable people. and if you don't have a mask, you might inadvertently infect them. there's a small risk of that, but it's there. the other thing is there may be variants may be circulating. new york has their own variant, 526. there's a south african variant. fortunately for us, chuck, the 1.1.7 variant dominate in europe and the uk is also dominant in the united states. thank goodness the vaccine works very well against that variant. >> the state of michigan and some other governors are nervous about certain outbreaks right now. they would like a surge in vaccines. is that an effective way to beat back a hot spot? >> you know, when you're in the middle of a hot spot, the best thing to do is to try and contain it.

that's why the government is sending in people to help out with testing, help out with contact tracing. try to get the distribution of the vaccines that are already there more expeditiously distributed. so they're putting resources in there to help them. but the best way, when you're in the middle of a real big outbreak and a big surge is really to shut down things much more so. if you take vaccines from other places and move it around, you make that place vulnerable to what's going on in michigan. that's the reason why you're not seeing a lot of remobilization of vaccines from one state to another. >> dr. anthony fauci, appreciate as always having you on. and trying to explain this to a nervous public. as always, sir, thank you. >> thank you. thanks for having me, chuck. >> of course, no state has been hit harder by the recent rise in covid cases than michigan. governor gretchen whitmer, a democratic, has asked the federal government to do what i

asked dr. fauci about, send more vaccines to her state. some officials say more vaccine won't help right now. their recommendation is for michigan to consider shutting things down like it did last summer. joining me now is governor whitmer. welcome back to "meet the press." before i get you to respond on any of that, here, lay it out here. what are your public health officials telling you today, and there's some hope that maybe we're plateauing in the northern tier. are we? >> we're clearly watching the data, working with our local public health experts, talking with national experts as well. what we know is that our success at keeping covid spread down for such a long period of time has left us with vast reservoirs of people who don't have antibodies. that was a good thing until the variants came on stage. 15 month into this and people are tired and dropping the protocols. we still have very strong measures to keep people safe, mask mandates. we've got capacity restrictions.

we've got work-from-home, imploring people to take a two-week pause, don't go to indoor dining. maybe keep your kids at home for virtual learning after spring break. we are starting to see the beginning of what could be a slowdown which is welcome. what also is welcome is we've gotten a lot of help from the biden administration to surge some therapeutics here, get some boots on the ground. i think all these things are going to be important to us stemming the tide of what we're seeing. >> governor, a lot of people think you're changing your tune slightly. i want to play a couple things you've said to me before about following the science. so take a listen. >> we've got to follow the science and the data, and we have to make decisions based on facts. >> i'm not going to be bullied into not following the science or not doing what i know to be the right thing. >> and then here is what you said this week in response to the idea of a lockdown.

take a listen. >> what might seem like a natural thing to do is much more complicated than what the cdc might suggest when you look at the reality here on the ground. >> so what's changed? is it the fatigue? is it the blowback you've been getting? is it all of it? >> a lot of things have changed. 15 months ago we didn't know this virus could be contained by the simple act of wearing a mask. we didn't have ppe at our fingertips. we didn't have the testing or the vaccines. we're now in a much different position. on top of that, in the waning months i have been sued by my legislature, lost in a republican-controlled supreme court. i don't have all the exact same tools. despite those things, we still have some of the strongest mitigation measures in the country, mask mandates, capacity limitations, working from home. so we're still doing what we can. but what is really happening on the ground here is we're moving fast to get shots in arms.

we've got a million in two weeks, a million in just the last nine days. we keep breaking our own records. we've got these continued mitigation practices. i'm working with a smaller set of tools at my disposal. that's why we really do need and appreciate the additional help we're getting from the federal government. >> all right. you said smaller set of tools. the bottom line is, if you thought you could do more, you would? we know a lot of the hospital systems in michigan are like, we really wish there were a more official pause in activities. it does sound like you're saying my hands are tied. >> at the end of the day, this whether or not everyone does their part. that's the most important part. this variant, the second most i think after florida. at least that was the last data i saw. michigan and florida are not next to each other. this is the time that snow birds come home from florida, people going on spring break, and all of these things can contribute to spread.

that's why we're imploring people to take this seriously, mask up, get tested. if you've been around someone who is positive, stay home. if you do get covid, use one of these monochromal antibodies so we can keep you out of the hospital and retain your health. >> are you still looking for vaccines? governor tim walls was thinking about this. are the governors thinking about helping each other out if the biden administration is hesitant about doing this? >> if more vaccines become available to michigan, i can tell you we will quickly get those into the arms of people. we are going to see i think a moment where supply outweighs demand. perhaps in parts of the country that's already happening and that's a concern. we've got to continue to urge the public to get these safe, effective vaccines, to understand that this is the key to saving your health and those who you love around you. but also getting our economy

back on track and getting that normalcy every single one of us craves. we are, i think, at a very serious moment. that's why we'll keep following the science, keep imploring people to do the right things, keep our mitigations up, and keep moving vaccines as quickly as we possibly can. >> michigan, in particular the detroit area, has always been very welcoming to refugees. if president biden lifts this cap, as he's hinting he may do in may, are you going to be a governor that says send -- resettle refugees in michigan? >> we are proud to be a home to a very diverse population. this is something that has been a great strength for our state, and something that has -- the auto industry drew people in from all over the world because you could get a good paying union job and raise a family on. this is a place where we always want to be welcoming to people looking for an opportunity and a better life. michigan will continue doing that. >> governor gretchen whitmer, democrat from michigan, we're

all hoping that we see this michigan case count get lower. i know you are, too. thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective. >> thank you. when we come back, the panel joins us on policing and guns after another mass shooting. on friday in indianapolis. in fact, meet the eight victims of that shooting. oting. did you know that every single flush flings odors onto your soft surfaces? then they get release back into the air, so you smell them later. ew right? that's why febreze created small spaces. press firmly and watch it get to work. unlike the leading cone, small spaces continuously eliminates odors in the air and on surfaces. so they don't come back for 45 days. just imagine what it can do with other odors.

welcome back. the panel i welcome back. the panel is with us. nbc news chief white house correspondent kristen welker, eddie glaude of princeton university, anna palmer with "punchbowl news" and senior editor of "the dispatch," david french. eddie, this is how "the new york times" had this graph this morning and this weekend and it certainly jumped out at me, since testimony began on march 29th in the derek chauvin trial, at least 64 people have died at the hands of law enforcement nagtswide with lack and latino

representing more than half of those dead. as of saturday, the average was more than three killings a day. eddie, where are we? and have we made any progress here at all in at least having a police reform conversation? >> well, it seems we're between two worlds. what do i mean by that? there's a form of policing that we're seeing and experiencing that has been shaped by a particular ideological frame, the war on drugs, being tough on crimes. it has resulted in the massive incarceration of the american population, the militarization of the police and having the underlying threat of violence as a way of policing particular communities in the country. that has resulted -- that has had a tangible impact and effects on particular communities. we're seeing the effects of that policing. but we seem to be transitioning into a new way of thinking about safety and security. so we're in this kind of interregnum.

the chauvin trial representing this transition. the residual trade as we're reaching for a new way of being together. >> here is how the governor of minnesota put it very bluntly on thursday. >> i don't think it's much of a debate. you're less safe to be black in minnesota than you are to be white on these things. they're asking are there changes we can make both legislatively and culturally that will start to reduce that. >> david, can we? >> yeah. there are absolutely changes legislatively, changes judicially that can be made. one of the things that eddie just said that's very important is we have a lot of doctrines that apply to police that enable the use of force as a result of the war on drugs, also as a result of overestimating risk to police in various circumstances, but at the same time what we also have to do is reform police at the same time we're recognizing we have a violent

crime spike in this country. so one of the things we have to do is we have to professionalize police and we have to end any of this argument that somehow diminished -- defunding the police, dismantling the police is any kind of talking point in american politics. so you have to reform police at the same time that you address a violent crime surge, and we have to talk about both of these at the same time. >> what you just presented, david, is actually -- you feel like you see this debate in the democratic party, anna palmer and it's in congress. here is jim clyburn, number three among house democrats. take a listen. >> this is not about policing. this is not about training. this is about recruiting. who are we recruiting to be police officers? that to me is where the focus has got to go. we've got to have police

officers. >> it's that line there, rashida tlaib tweeted, no more policing. incarceration, and campaign reform, and is there a real divide in the democratic party? or are there more on the jim clyburn side, that you need reform but you need policing? >> i think congresswoman tlaib is really out there on her own right now. you've seen this pullback of democrats after she made that tweet, among them jim clyburn, even progressives like bernie sanders, they don't want the rallying cry to be defund the police. they think it's going to only hurt them going into the midterms. sorry to bring it back to politics, but that's what this is for a lot of members of congress. if democrats believe they're not in power, then none of these other issues can move forward. i think you'll see democrats at large move away from defund the police and find other measures they can agree on. >> kristen welker, the biden

campaign made promises on police reform and the gun issue. we got a sledgehammer over our heads as an american community. these are the mass shootings in 2021. look at all these red dots, 592 people, 181 killed and our definition of mass shooting, four or more people shot, not necessarily killed. four or more people shot, not including the initial gunman. kristen, where does the white house think they can make progress on police reform or on gun regulation? >> taking both of those issues, chuck, first on police reform, the white house is pushing for the george floyd bill which passed the house to pass the senate. that is a bill that would make it easier to prosecute police misconduct. it would pour resources into training police. there is a bipartisan effort to try to move that forward. no progress, though. same thing as relates to guns. they're urging congress to move forward on two bills regarding

background checks. that passed the house. while those two things are stalled, the white house is focused on infrastructure, its it's a big push. >> david, the gun debate. it does feel as if the debate has shifted at least on the right side of the aisle so far to the right. i mean look at your home state right now of tennessee. there was a time getting a permit to get a handgun wasn't a controversial thing. >> true. a lot of our gun control argument and conversation after mass shootings, a mass shooting occurs and gun control measures are suggested that don't have anything to do with mass shootings. so what i think that is necessary and states should be exploring right now are things called red flag laws. >> we have one here, david. >> they're not foolproof. nothing is foolproof. but one thing that red flag laws do is they're targeted at problematic and dangerous individual behavior rather than passing laws that don't really have anything to do with exactly

how mass shooters obtain their guns. when you're talking about reform, i think when you target reform at the problematic behavior, you'll have a better chance to save lives than gestures that aren't actually targeted at the behavior itself. >> eddie, care to respond? >> sure. i think we need to address the outsized influence of gun manufacturers in our public policy debates. let's be clear. people are dying. we could be nuanced in this way, that david is trying to suggest. but eight people dead at fedex, 140 mass shootings since january, that's four months. it makes little sense that we think about or dance around the second amendment in this way while we're constantly burying folk. let's be very clear here, very quickly, chuck. there is a mass mental health crisis in this country, but it's happening in a place where we're awash in guns. we need to prepare ourselves for the convergence of those two things in very, very horrific ways.

>> everybody agrees we don't want the mentally ill to have access to these firearms. we just can't figure out how to stop it. very respectful debate. thank you for that. before we go to break, i'm going to advise you of "meet the press reports" on nbc news and peacock. this week we're covering cyber security. we talked to microsoft president brad smith. >> do you believe that we're at war on the internet right now? >> i think most of the time people would say this is not an act of war, but it also doesn't feel like a time of peace, especially when we see not only this technology, these attacks used for, say, something like espionage, but sometimes to damage people's computers, to disrupt the operations of, say, a hospital or a school, to put at risk the electrical grid. these are dangerous steps. >> from cyber stickups to nation state espionage. you can see this episode any time on peacock.

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welcome back. former speaker of the house john boehner had a front row seat as his republican changed from a small government, low taxes party to what it is today. at various points in his new book "on the house: a washington memoir," boehner torches his

knucklehead caucus, a lunatic and an a-hole. those are descriptions of members of his own party. his critics suggest he spent some time in the driver's seat of what he calls the republican clown car and as he deserves some of the rit criticism, he doles out to others the extremism of his own party. mr. speaker, welcome back to "meet the press." >> chuck, it's good to be with you. >> let me start with that general criticism, and you've heard it already, which says you did a good job of identifying all the ways in the last ten years that you saw the party lurch to the right for various reasons, right? whether it was on talk radio, the fund-raising circuit, on the house floor. what responsibility do you have and do you hold yourself for in this change in the party? >> well, chuck, every day that i saw this beginning in 2011, i'd push back on it.

i did everything i could to bring all these members into the republican party, into our team, but some of them just didn't want to come. most of those so-called tea party types frankly became very good republicans. on any given day, i had 210, 215 solid republican votes. on any given day i had two or three dozen what i call knuckleheads who wanted chaos, who wanted it 100% their way or no way. but every single day, the five years i was speaker, i tried to work to bring them into the party. some just wouldn't come. >> is that the mistake though? i get what you're saying. that is the chief line of criticism is that you sort of -- you guys liked the energy that they brought, you liked the fact that, hey, that attracted and helped with some donations that seemed to fire up some voters that hadn't been fired up in a while, and you just sort of ignored the downside until it was too late.

now looking backwards, do you think you should have done more? >> no, chuck, i don't think i could have done more, given the time that we had. hindsight is 20/20. it's easy to look back now ten years, six years ago and wonder. but i can tell you i did everything every day i could to bring them into the party, make them part of the party. but some of them just, frankly, didn't want to come. >> let me ask something about the white supremacist, this stuff that keeps trying to get into the mainstream, into the conservative movement. i feel like the republican party that you grew up in did a pretty good job of trying to eradicate this. it creeped back in, whether it creeped in via libertarian movements or whatever, it creeped back in. and you see it. you've gone from one problem in steve king, and it's metastasized, now they're trying to start a caucus sort of based on these racist ideas. how did this happen? how did this get mainstreamed a

bit in your party? >> well, chuck, i have no idea how this even showed up. i wouldn't call it mainstreamed in our party. i can tell you that this so-called america first caucus is one of the nuttiest things i've ever seen. listen, america is a land of immigration. we've been the world's giant melting pot for 250 years, and we ought to celebrate the fact that we are this giant melting pot. to see some members of congress who start this america first caucus, it's the silliest thing i've ever seen. republicans need to denounce it. >> their definition, by the way, of immigration, they would say there shouldn't be asian-american citizenship in this country the way that's described. i don't think people realize how cruel some of that stuff was said there, right, mr. speaker?

>> i think it's awfully cruel. frankly, it has no place in the republican party. my second biggest regret during my time as speaker is not being able to come to an agreement with president obama on an immigration reform bill. our immigration system is a mess. it's broken, from top to bottom, and it needs to be fixed so that it's fairer for americans who are here and fairer for those who are trying to come here. >> was it him or was it conservative media? you wrote this about roger ailes. you said, i just didn't believe the entire federal government was so terrified of roger ailes that they'd break about a dozen laws to bring them down. i thought i could get them to control the crazies. instead i found myself talking to the head of the club. here is the head of fox news, you met with him to say can we cool the rhetoric down. you put the blame on president obama. isn't it roger ailes and what happened with the right wing at night that torpedoed the immigration?

>> no, no. believe me, chuck, i wanted to get immigration reform done. president obama wanted to get it done. again, every time we'd get ready to move, the president would go out and give some speech or he'd loosen up some immigration regulation and just kind of set everybody on fire. and that's not a prescription for getting things accomplished in congress. >> you made it clear you voted for president trump for re-election. you made that decision, in fairness, before january 6th. after watching what you saw happen on january 6th, you still comfortable with that vote? >> well, listen, i cast the vote. it was over and it was done with. i was disappointed in what happened after the election, the president continuing to make claims about the election being stolen, and i kept looking for evidence, like most americans did.

where's the evidence? how can he keep saying something without providing any proof? and there wasn't any. clearly on january 6th, it was one of the saddest days in my life, watching a place i worked, watching a place where i and my team did everything we could for that institution, being trashed by a mob. >> didn't you think his actions make it where he forfeited his ability to lead the american democracy? >> listen, chuck, i'm not in office anymore. what he does or doesn't do really is of no interest to me. i'm trying to make sure that republicans understand, as a republican party, we need to go back to the principles of what it means to be a republican, things like fiscal responsibility, things like a strong national defense, things that hold republicans and the republican party together and has for the last 150 years. let's go back to being

republicans. >> would you ever run for office again? >> i'd rather set myself on fire than to run for office again. >> the only reason i ask that question, because i expected an answer just like that. >> you're a [ bleep ]. >> i assume i'm getting that as a compliment. i'll take that as a backhanded compliment. former house speaker, john boehner, it's a pleasure. thanks for coming on. thank you for sharing your perspective with us. >> good to be with you. >> when we come back, how republicans are losing their most reliable voters, and democrats are gaining them. stay with us. but new cascade platinum changes all that. new cascade platinum, with 50% more cleaning power! it dissolves fast to start cleaning sooner, releasing the soaking power of dawn. then cascade's food-seeking enzymes latch on and break down food into particles so small

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"data download" time. we talked about how the two political parties are changing. now there are new warning signs for republicans in that realignment. in the first quarter this year, gallup found democrats have a nine-point edge. in party identification. it's the largest gap recorded in a decade. now we've seen this before and it hasn't always stuck. data from the pew research center shows the shift from red to blue could have long-term consequences. here is why. at the beginning of this century, republicans held an 11-point edge among this group of voters. by the time barack obama was president, the figure flipped and it became a narrow

four-point edge for democrats. then came president trump. democrats had a 13-point lead among this group of voters. here is why this matters. republicans have long counted on the high turnout of college educated suburban voters, especially during midterm and special elections. yet in 2018, 64% of people with a bachelor's degree went to the polls. watch this. that compares to 52% of some with some college and associate's. 39% with high school or less, 20% or less with those without a high school diplomas. all this could spell trouble for republicans if they are losing the most reliable voters to democrats. we may have seen that already in georgia and a statewide election in wisconsin. when we come back, a caucus of republicans based on anglo-saxon, in other words, white traditions. believe it or not, it is being claimed.

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welcome back. you heard former speaker boehner and i get into this you heard former speaker boehner and i get into this topic. anna palmer, it was "punchbowl news," your outfit, that reported about this anglo-saxon, white nationalist, white supremacist, however you want to describe it. here's some of the outline of what the caucus would look like in congress. a common respect for uniquely anglo-saxon political traditions, infrastructure that befits the progeny of european

architecture and post 1965 immigrants decrease the capital to labor ratio. i pointed out the profound effect it would have on asian-americans here. anna palmer, you put this out and, boy, all of a sudden, sunshine does seem to bring out at least some response to this. how are republicans handling this idea? >> well, a couple of ways. i think you've seen a lot of the members who were potentially going to join, distance themselves from it. you certainly see senate minority lead kevin mccarthy put out tweets trying to say this is not representative of the republican party. to me what is important here and stunning is the fact that this used to be just a few outliers in the republican party. now the fact that they are trying to form a caucus and a group of members that were going to back this, matt gaetz even after it became public said, yes, i'm going to join it, that is becoming more the mainstream of where the republican party is. it's not where john boehner, who you just spoke to is anymore.

that's going to be something they'll have to deal with going forward. >> kristen welker, i know you've been reporting on this. it's quite the contrast when you think about an op-ed from former president george w. bush with the headline in "the washington post," "immigration is a defining asset in the united states." what a contrast in the party. >> you're absolutely right. i spoke to a number of republicans overnight, chuck, who were just outraged. they echo the anger you heard from former house speaker john boehner and said this is just not representative of the republican party. of course, this comes against the backdrop of the party looking to rebuild itself, looking the take back the house and the senate in 2022. the deep concern is that even a few people associating themselves with a group like this harms the entire party. and i think the focus is going to be on leadership. i want to go back to something anna was just talking about. we did hear from kevin mccarthy this week who decried nativist thinking. i think there's going to be

pressure on him, on leader mcconnell, who has not commented at all, to come out more forcefully and denounce, not just this language, but anybody who would associate themselves with this type of a group. >> david french, you heard john boehner said he didn't want to say it was mainstream in the party. but that's the problem here. it looks like the party is more welcoming to this fringe than ever before. >> i'm going to tell you grim truth. the grassroots of part of the party is often defined by rage and hatred right now. conspiracy theories, rage and hatred. no functioning political party should have a tent big enough to include those people. but i tell you what, if mainstream republicans repudiate them, the wrath from the grass roots in many of these state, we've seen this. we've seen censures of politicians who condemned january 6th or trump's role in

the insurrection. this is a huge problem in the party. this is something the party has to deal with decisively or it's flat out not a party worth respecting. >> eddy, why did it appear -- maybe you might reject the premise i asked of speaker boehner. it appeared to me the republican party of the '90s at least publicly tried to eradicate this part of the party, denouncing david dukes or getting rid of steve king. obviously, in hindsight, it didn't work. >> it's always been a component of the republican party. how did they deal with george wallace? what is the southern strategy? >> don't forget wallace started as a democrat. don't forget that was a -- >> but i'm just saying what has been the role of a racial dog whistle? how do we think about tough on crime, welfare reform. all of these are ways in which you appeal to grievance and resentment and hatred. in some ways, that element of the republican party has metastasized and overwhelmed the party.

i'm thinking of faulkner here, chuck, the past is never past is not even dead. anglo-saxonism has always been a part -- in the bloodstream of american politics. think about late 19th century foreign policy and domestic policy. anglo-saxon is almost everywhere. we have to root it out. we can't dance with it, try to reconcile ourselves with it. we have to banish it once and for all. >> anna palmer, it wasn't that long ago that the majority of the republican party was willing to essentially kick steve king out of the republican congress. we're not there anymore. do you think leadership can successfully eradicate this fringe? >> i think it's going to be extremely difficult. it was just the lone member when it was steve king. you now have a group of members that have a very big megaphone here. they aren't outliers here. how kevin mccarthy deals with this is going to be key. he wants to be speaker in two years, and the fact is, he's

going to have to make some really public statements and stake out a claim. where is the house republican party when it comes to language like this. >> kristen welker, the biden white house flip-flopped on refugee camps in basically like a five-hour span, lunchtime to before happy hour. what did we learn about the biden sphere of the left? >> we learned that the pressure from progressives is very real. administration officials acknowledge that they botched the rollout of this. they reject the idea that they have reversed the president's campaign promise to increase the refugee cap. they say that's still going to happen starting may 15th. bottom line, look for more pressure and more pressure for immigration reform, chuck. >> terrific panel segment. that's all we have today. thank you for watching. we'll be back next week. because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." be back next . because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."