and as you saw, quite a few millennials, quite a few progressives squad that crowd got to congress in 2018 because these activists showed up in polls in record numbers. they continue that in 2020 and there's reason to think that that will continue next year. >> all right. the washington post eugene scott, we appreciate your reporting and insights. thank you for being with us. and while you've heard this morning from so many about a collective sigh of relief in the wake of this verdict, i'm just trying to focus on remember that we have so, so much work to do and that work needs to be done by every single one of us. thank you so much for getting up way too early with us on this wednesday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. >> count one, in intentional second degree murder guilty. count two third degree murder guilty. count three-second degree manslaughter guilty. bail is revoked, bond is discharged and the defendant is remanded to the custody of the hennepin county sheriff.

>> today we are able to breathe again. >> i'm going to miss him, but now i know he's in history. >> what a day to be a floyd. it's a victory for all of us. there's no color barrier on this. this is everyone who has been held down, pinned down. you know what, people? we standing together in unity. >> the brothers of george floyd reacting after a jury finds derek chauvin guilty of murder. the first such conviction of a white police officer against a black civilian in the state of minnesota. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, april 21st. guilty on all charges was the verdict rendered after ten hours of deliberations for former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin who killed a black man

named george floyd on may 25th of last year by kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. chauvin's bond was revoked and he was immediately remanded to custody at the oak park heights correctional facility where he will spend the next eight weeks awaiting sentencing. he faces up to 40 years in prison. minneapolis residents who gathered outside the courthouse celebrated the verdict with tears and relief, and crowds at the scene of floyd's death erupted into cheers for a guilty on all counts verdict that many were unsure they would get. minnesota attorney general keith ellison spoke at a news conference with the prosecutors who tried the case. >> i would not call today's verdict justice, however, because justice implies true restoration. but it is accountability, which

is the first step towards justice. we need true justice. that's not one case. that is a social transformation that says that nobody's beneath the law and no one is above it. >> no verdict can bring george perry floyd back to us. but this verdict does give a message to his family that he was somebody. that his life mattered. that all of our lives matter. >> let's bring in the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. and pulitzer prize winning historian jon meacham. good to have you both to start off this morning. >> reverend al, you were there. you have been with the family from the start. tell us how they were doing, how they reacted to the verdict yesterday.

>> well, the court had covid vaccine >> well, the court had covid restrictions so only one person could be in the courtroom. the rest of the brothers, cousins and daughter were in a nearby hotel. we didn't know what to expect. it was a lot of anxiety and a lot of hope. and i must say out of the years i've been involved in this and have stood with families, marched with them, rallied with them through national action network, this family was strong and more hopeful than most that i've dealt with. but even then, you don't know. and when the -- it came across the screen, the judge reading the verdict, i looked over at the brothers and all of us just simultaneously burst out in tears. to see grown men cry and women weeping, it was the most emotional reaction i've seen in the decades i've been involved.

and he said guilty the second time, guilty the third time, and all of us just started embracing each other because i think deep down inside we believed it, but we just wasn't sure. we've seen tapes before. we've seen videos before. eric garner was a video. they never even were charged in that case. we saw the video 30 years ago with rodney king. those policemen were acquitted. so somewhere deep in, you just always wanted to reserve the right to say, well, i didn't go for it all the way, and then the walls burst and you got at least this guilty this time, and you could say, maybe we can make a difference. and this family just sobbed and weeped and was hugging each other and waiting on philonese to come, president biden called and talked, vice-president harris. but i think the main thing they

really felt for was they lost their brother, now he meant something bigger than them, and that all these months that they joined all of us was not in vain. >> you know, reverend, for some reason yesterday after that verdict, in many ways a historic verdict, it was in vogue to say that justice was not done. somehow this was not enough. justice was not done. that just ignores history. from emmett till to trayvon martin, eric garner, so many different cases, to george floyd, those are cases where justice was not done. in this one case -- and the law requires us to take it one case at a time -- justice was done, and it was done after one of the largest social movements ever --

and let me say again for people that want to denigrate what happened yesterday, minimize what happened yesterday. rev, you've seen it. we've talked about it. this is the first case where one police officer after another police officer after another police officer testified against the action of one of their own. this was different. this did make a difference. don't you think people should stop for a second and say, hey, wait a second, wait a second, maybe all the work that we did over the past year in the streets, in washington -- maybe it made a difference. maybe this is something -- maybe this is something we can build on. >> i think that if we do not look at the fact that, yes, the marches and the rallies all over the world, inter generational, inter rational, was impactful,

over 200,000 people in the pandemic that marched with us, when national action network called for that, all of that was great. but when we saw policemen, even the chief of police of minneapolis get on the stand and testify against a police man, the reason that was significant -- i think it was not only critical to the trial and the jury. it was critical to the movement to say that finally the world gets it, this is not anti-police. this is about police accountability, to where even now policemen could say, wait a minute, we will break this blue wall of silence. and that's where i think we can now lead to law and legislative change because this will not matter in history if we do not make permanent legal change, legislative change. we must now transition from an episodic movement to an historic

movement and that requires new laws. and i think those policemen breaking the blue wall of silence will help us get there. >> rev, you and i sat next to each other on this set last week and talked about the evidence that was in front of us, all the testimony we heard. and you said the prosecution made a great case, but i've seen this before. we all hold our breath to wait because it is so hard to win convictions against police officers. so when we got the announcement of the three verdicts, guilty, guilty, guilty yesterday, and then that image, rev, of former officer chauvin being placed into handcuffs and led out of the room, that is the moment i heard from so many people yesterday was the one that got them because there was so much history. there was so much frustration. there were so many years bound up in that moment where the police officer was not held accountable. what did that moment mean to you and what do you think it means more broadly? >> i think that when i saw this police man handcuffed, what it meant to me is it sent a signal to police all over this country

that this is what i could face if i take the law for granted that i can do whatever i want to do, and i will not be held accountable. i would have hoped that we could have restored george's life. but since that was not the case, that photo is in the mind of every police officer this morning, that i will be held accountable. they will remember seeing him handcuffed and brought to prison. a police man, just like we do any others that break the law. and we must remember it's not over. i think that the historian meacham can tell us -- i call him deacon meacham. he's behind the freight in any movement. we have to do follow-up. where is the legislation going? tomorrow, daunte wright, a 20-year-old killed by a 26-year

veteran who said she thought her gun was a taser killed him. i'm doing the eulogy at his funeral here in minneapolis, in the same county tomorrow morning. so this is not over. we've got to fight for legislative change. in fact, we had the white house supporting the fact some in congress supporting. all of that is well and good. but lyndon johnson supported it, but they had to pass that voting rights bill and civil rights bill. we need legislative change, and we need policemen to sit in front of that congress just like they got on that stand and say, yes, there must be accountability built into the laws of this country. >> accountability, maybe this is precedent, it's certainly a turning point. 2020 will be remembered for the pandemic, but also for the movement of racial justice. the death of george floyd sparked a once in a generation shift not seen since the civil rights movement. a shift in policing. a shift in the minds of many white americans.

and a shift in the minds of black americans that change is possible. his death turned the black lives matter hashtag after the death of trayvon martin into a movement that's reached all 50 states and beyond. there was resistance, the most memorable in our own nation's capital when the government that fought so hard for justice and freedom abroad used force to clear peaceful protesters from lafayette square near the white house. but the fight did not stop there. those fighting for justice persisted, and a new generation was born. a generation of young people standing on the shoulders of those who came before them. jon meacham, you're the author of the biography of john lewis entitled "his truth is marching on." what would he think of the change we've seen over the last year? i think of that almost iconic picture of him standing i think with his arms crossed on the black lives matter painted in

washington, d.c. on the street, we'll show it in a moment. i wonder what he would be thinking today. >> he would be thinking that we are a closer to what he and dr. king and james lawson and others thought of as the beloved community, which is basically the kingdom of heaven coming to fruition and reality on earth, a place where we actually love our neighbors as ourselves, where as hard as it is, we love our enemies as the prophet amos said, justice comes down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream. john lewis believed that if enough of us had the correct and loving dispositions of heart and mind, that we could bring about that ideal in the temporal world. and that's the single most difficult thing for people who

are theologically or historically minded to contemplate because it is about human perfection when human beings define imperfection with our whole being. the constitution of the united states, for all of its failings, was a calvinist document essentially that assumed that we would do the wrong thing most of the time. it's a calvinistically informed document that because if we had total power, if any element of the republic had total power, we were most likely to abuse it. and as winston churchill said, you can always count on the americans to do the right thing after we've exhausted every other possibility. so we've always proven, i think, that insight right. what john lewis and reverend

sharpton knows this better than i do, what he believed was that patient, brave, non-violent witness was the best means to redemption. that if he and his colleagues ella baker and amelia boinkin and rosa parks and jose williams and innumerable host of others whose names we don't know, but who made the best of america possible, if they would stand non-violently, peacefully as sentinels and lanterns for the country, for other people to actually do what we said we wanted to do and be what we say we want to be, and that's

closing the gap between a profession in the principles of the declaration of independence -- that we're all created equal -- and the practice of american life for 400 years which has been to not necessarily to close that gap, but to widen it at times. and the remarkable thing, i think, about this moment, which is simply -- not simply, but it is a step, as reverend says, we won't know fully what this moment means until we know what comes out of it both in the hearts and minds of the country and in the legislative reaction as lincoln said, public sentiment is everything, and public sentiment has shifted. but has it shifted enough? and so what congressman lewis would be doing is he would be

saying, close the gap between profession and practice. and so i think that maybe yesterday is selma. and it's on its way to a voting rights act. but maybe it's the niagara movement, which was in the 60 years before that where w.e.b. dubois and others went and made a statement of principles that became part of the black freedom movement. maybe, maybe we're a couple of months away from genuine legislative reform, but maybe we're years away, and that's the test ahead of us. >> that is the test ahead of us whatever it was. historians like you will be grappling with it for sometime. but it was a single protester

who came together with millions of other protesters that marched in the streets that march in the streets, not just in america, but across the world. and from, as bobby kennedy would say, those ripples on a lake from a million different points created an energy that came together and really did create a change, bent history, willie. and john lewis would recognize that history that was made. know john, knew john pretty well, serving with him and traveling with him a lot. he would be very positive about what happened. he would demand that protests moved forward and that they be peaceful protests. and at the same time, as he had said before and as he said always, this is not the fight of

a day. this is not the fight of a month or a year. this is a fight that must continue throughout our lifetimes. peacefully, but in an unrelenting loving way. >> absolutely. and what an opportunity to show young people in this country as john lewis did for so many years and did himself, he was a very young man as john knows at selma. what an opportunity to show if you see in justice in the world, you can change it. you can push and you can push peacefully and you can change it. it was an opportunity to say to my own kids as we watched this last night, this was a moment for justice and hopefully the beginning of something and not the end of something. we also shouldn't let this moment pass without recognizing darnella frazier. she was the 17-year-old high school student who was out with her young cousin getting a snack, and saw something that she said in testimony on the stand that just wasn't right. she saw a police officer's knee on a man's neck. it looked like the man was dying. darnella pulled out her phone

and recorded those ten minutes that the world saw. she posted it to facebook. darnella frazier, 17 years old, now 18 years old, is the reason we witnessed this and is the reason most likely that there was conviction yesterday. let's bring into the conversation civil rights attorney and former brooklyn, new york prosecutor charles coleman and former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. good morning to you both. charles, let me begin with you. 24 hours ago we sat here together and we -- you said, look, it just takes one juror, one juror to hang this jury. what happened yesterday, were you surprised that all three came back as convictions? >> good morning, and thank you for having me. once i saw how quickly they had a verdict, i knew that that was a good sign. at the end of the day, there are only three options that we were looking at. either we were looking at a unanimous acquittal, unanimous conviction, or a hung jury. and the reality is i was very much so convinced that there was

no way that there were going to be 12 people that in that amount of time came to the conclusion that absolutely nothing that derek chauvin had done had left him criminally liable. so i was able to immediately eliminate the possibility of an acquittal once i realized how quickly the jury came back. after that, all we're left with is the possibility of a hung jury. we had not heard anything about a mistrial or a conviction. and i knew that the judge was not going to allow a hung jury i had at that point quite frankly because there hadn't been enough time. so i knew there was going to be a conviction on something. and then at that point it was just a question of what charge or charges were they going to convict derek chauvin of. and when we got back into the courtroom, we saw that it was all three. and so the amount of time that the jury deliberated and came to a verdict was an immediate indicator for me and for a number of trial attorneys who have experienced that this was

going to be a good sign for prosecutors after having laid out a brilliant and very methodical intentional case. >> charles, we had talked yesterday about the jury instructions, how even the jury instructions -- you looked at them and thought it might take the jurors, once they got back there, once they got settled, once they figured out who the jury foreperson was going to be, that it might take them half a day to just sort through the jury instructions, figure out what they mean, ask questions. i think it's pretty stunning that this jury went back there. they didn't even ask any questions of clarification by the judge on any instructions, on any documents, on any information, and moved back there and really did for not

just the sort of charges that they were weighing, but also the fact that it was a police officer. it seems they moved with -- i don't know if it's historic speed, but remarkable speed. this was, this was beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond a shadow of a doubt for these jurors. they hardly had time to sit down, go through the jury instructions before returning a verdict. are you surprised by just how quickly they moved? >> quite frankly i am. the term all deliberate speed comes to mind when i think about how quickly the jurors were able to go through the charges, look at whatever evidence they needed to look at, if any at all, and make the decision that they did. however, one of the things that i had been saying consistently leading up to yesterday and monday and the closing arguments was that i expected the prosecution to try to make this as simple and straightforward as

possible. i expectled the prosecution to talk a bit about the need to use your common sense, to trust your eyes. and that's exactly what they did during the summation. what they did after having been extremely methodical in laying out their case and very, very brilliant in that regard, they ended with that theme of, listen, you can trust your eyes. use your common sense, because it's only natural that what we have seen on that video gives us an inclination of guilt from the outset. and everything that we heard and saw from the prosecution and the evidence that they set forward confirmed that. so in a way, we shouldn't be entirely surprised that they were able to quickly make a decision, but, no, absolutely, joe, i did not expect or anticipate that it would be this quick. >> yeah, and, joyce vance, there were some pundits yesterday after the verdict that were saying, nothing to see here,

move along, no big deal, no justice done. those were people that weren't believing their eyes, that weren't believing their ears because maybe you've seen a police officer be tried and be convicted basically by the words of his fellow police officers and then see a jury go in and so quickly move against a police officer, instead of doing what they've done in the past throughout the history of this country, and that is giving the benefit of the doubt to a police officer every time. that did not happen yesterday and, joyce, if this happens regularly, if you've seen this happen many times in alabama, minnesota -- please, let me know, because i haven't seen it. yesterday i was stunned by how quickly the jury came back in. >> it's hard to have actually a

national profile of what these prosecutions look like because police aren't required to report numbers, joe, which makes it tough to study. but there's one lone professor at bowling green university who collects data on excessive force prosecutions and he estimates there have been about 73 convictions over the course of 16 years. so when you think about it, that's not just for homicides, that's for all sorts of excessive force cases. that means very few police officers are being brought to accountability. in my mind, that's what yesterday does. that vision of a police officer being led from a courtroom in handcuffs sends a strong deterrence message. and so yesterday the verdict was significant on many levels. verdicts of guilt are always significant for families and victims because they represent, if not full justice, then at least accountability. but here we also see this beginning of deterrence that can

impact the conduct of future police offices. what we've seen last week, that's sorely needed. the last thing i'll say is this. some people, as you said, the pundits, this jury was influenced by the fear the country would break out in riots if they didn't return a verdict of guilt. i reject that notion. this jury took an oath, told the judge they could follow it repeatedly and they were sequestered during their deliberations. and what i'm forced to think about is all of the juries in police cases who i spoke with after they hung or after they rendered acquittals were jurors, as you said, gave police the benefit of the doubt. they said, we didn't want to ruin the life of a police officer. i think what the black lives matter protests last summer did, i think what the influx of information into the national conscience about the widespread police misconduct that we see did was it let this jury decide

this case based solely on the evidence and the law without some sort of a bias that said that police were above the law. now we live in a community where we can possibly have justice for everyone going forward if future juries will act this way as well. >> there is hope now. joyce, can you explain process in terms of derek chauvin? he was remanded into custody immediately. what are the next steps potential for appeal as well? >> the next thing that happens is that derek chauvin will be sentenced by the judge. that will take a period of about eight weeks because the judge will consider the prosecution's request that the sentence be enhanced, that it be increased above the 150 months or 12 1/2 years that minnesota guidelines call for. and then once that sentence has been put in place, chauvin will very likely remain in custody.

but he will have the opportunity to appeal. this has got to be a case that the prosecution feels pretty good about on appeal. evidence is clearly sufficient to support this verdict which is always a big issue on appeal. there will, i suspect, be a lot of points of error alleged by the defense, saying that the prosecution put in too many police officers or made comments in closing argument that they shouldn't have. and, of course, that will wend its way through the minnesota appellate courts, but the prosecution tried a clean case here. they were very careful about not injecting any error into the proceedings. >> charles and joyce, we appreciate you being on. reverend al, i'm curious. you and i have talked about so many cases over the past several years where i've seen you go down and talk to the family of

trayvon martin, be with other families as well when we saw what happened to eric garner, walter scott. i'm curious, what will you be saying to trayvon's family and all the other families who you've been with, you've sat with and you've prayed with? >> well, what i've been saying and i talked to some of them last night, is that the loss of their loved one sometimes are the steps that we have to walk on to ultimately get to where we have to go. and the fact that you did not get justice, but stayed in a justice movement made this some way a victory for you, and it gives you the satisfaction to know you didn't fight in vain. yes, it is a pain that will never go away, but the pain even

in the floyd family that won the case won't go away. and many of them said, reverend, we're going to meet you at dante's funeral thursday. tomorrow we have another funeral. this won't stop. and just like i was raised by the generation ahead of me, john lewis and jesse jackson and others mentored martin luther king iii, we see younger people coming behind us, movement is about continuity which is why you have to be sure about the goal. we have not done what those ahead of us did. we have not made new law and we need these families to help us stand up and make new law so those that died that were wrongly dealt with will at least -- history will have to give them the verdict that the courts didn't. >> president biden called yesterday's verdict a giant step forward as he and vice-president harris addressed the nation after derek chauvin was found guilty on all counts. >> the guilty verdict does not

bring back george. but through the family's pain, they are finding purpose, so george's legacy will not be just about his death but about what we must do in his memory. >> today we feel a sigh of relief. still it cannot take away the pain. a measure of justice isn't the same as equal justice. this verdict brings us a step closer. and the fact is we still have work to do. we still must reform the system. >> the president and vice-president also spoke with the floyd family after the announcement of the verdict. >> nothing is going to make it all better, but at least now there is some justice.

i think with gianna's comment, it will change the world, change it now. >> real leaders at this moment where we needed you and in george's name and memory, we are going to make sure his legacy is intact and that history will look back at this moment and know that it was an inflection moment. >> vice-president harris speaking there at the end. let's bring in white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. jonathan, good morning. so, president biden said yesterday, quote, we can't stop here. what does that mean as a practical question? how big a priority is police reform for him? >> well, first of all, it is an extraordinary sigh of relief from the white house yesterday. they do believe this is an important moment. i was in the white house yesterday as we heard from the president twice about the george floyd case. once during the afternoon after the jury was sequestered, but

before we had a verdict in which he said he had spoken to the family, he thought he suggested the case was overwhelming and he was hoping for the right verdict. there was some back and forth as to whether he should have weighed in at that moment while the trial was ongoing. aides said it was because he spoke to the floyd family earlier in the day. moved by their plight, he denounced all along what happened to george floyd in minneapolis. now we heard from him last night say, indeed, this is an important moment, it has to be just a step. this is a white house now that wants to lean in more into police reform, but it's going to be an uphill climb. they have made some moves on executive orders, bull now the ball is really in congress's court. and we know this is a congress that's already really busy with a lot of the biden agenda, in particular infrastructure and jobs program, of which we're going to hear the second part next week, his 100 days address to congress. it's going to require a lot of juggling, but they hope, they feel, they believe that this

verdict yesterday will give them some momentum. and certainly their allies, democratic allies on the hill want to do a full court press and we should expect, aides say, the president to take this up in a bigger clause which is a speech upon policing in weeks ahead. >> jonathan, the president had for the most part declined to weigh in on this trial until yesterday as the jury was gathering and deliberating and considering the verdict. he did weigh in, saying he was praying for the right verdict. he said he thought the evidence was overwhelming. press secretary jen psaki kind of fumbled around with that question when asked about it in the briefing room and said he was not weighing in on the case. why is it that he waited until that moment and spoke about the case and gave his opinion on the case right before the verdict was given? >> willie, this is one he had been following very closely. senior aides said far more than he let on, he had been watching elements of the trial and he really felt for the floyd family. you may recall last year during

the campaign -- in fact, after the pandemic hit, i believe it was his first trip from delaware was to go to the floyd funeral in houston. he met with the family and has stayed in regular touch with them. he did believe, he and his administration -- let's not overlook the vice-president here, of course, the first black woman to serve in that office, believe this would be a real victory in some ways for the movement if there was a conviction. there were behind the scenes preparations for what happened if the other verdict came down. coordinating with governors and mayors, national responses. thankfully none of that was needed last night after the verdict, the white house believes. but the president felt like he couldn't wait any longer. the jury was sequestered. he felt it was a moment he could weigh in. he had just spoken to the family and felt it was a moment he could offer his support and prayers. the floyd family suggested they were glad for it because they know that joe biden is someone

who suffered immense in his personal life. they felt a connection, he knows what it's like to lose a child, he knows what it's like to feel such pain. so he wanted -- he took that moment after the jury was sequestered to weigh in. certainly the white house really relieved last night the verdict came in, it came in so quickly and they do want to try to build off of this going forward. >> let's bring in nbc news correspondent shaquille brewster in oak park heights, minnesota, outside the prison where derek chauvin is being held. describe the scene yesterday when the verdict came down. >> reporter: well, i was inside that park right outside of the courthouse as that verdict was being read. people gathered very quickly after we got word of the verdict. it was about an hour, hour and a half that we got when there was a verdict and before it was announced in the courtroom. and you saw this crowd start to form very quickly. and when the court resumed, people looked down at their phones, they were watching, they

were listening, putting it up to their ear. there was a hush that came over the crowd. and then you heard someone on a blow horn say, guilty. that's when people went into exuberance. i think we're playing some of that moment right now. you see the hugs that were there. you see tears in people's eyes. then they hushed again. they heard it again, guilty. and that played out three different times. you know, one thing you really got a sense of from the people there is there was genuine relief. there was a lot of skepticism, and this is what people told me really since george floyd died almost a year ago, that they didn't think this day would come. they saw the trial. they watched the video over and over. they heard from the bystanders. they heard from the officers one after another coming up and saying that this was excessive force that was being used. but they wouldn't let themselves believe that derek chauvin would be convicted with a jury of his peers. that's what these protesters got and that's what these demonstrators got yesterday. we saw protests and peaceful

demonstrations throughout the city of minneapolis. there was a march from the courthouse around the downtown area. there were hundreds of people that gathered at george floyd square, the intersection that is still closed off to this day, that exact spot where george floyd was killed. again, about a year ago at this point. you hear that word over and over again. it's relief that people say that they feel. this is the justice that many of them had been calling for now that derek chauvin has been declared a murderer and is now at this federal prison behind me -- excuse me, at this state prison behind me. >> all right, nbc's shaquille brewster. thank you very much. >> so, jon meacham, reverend sharpton has talked about legislation that needs to be passed. we've seen joe biden moving through -- well, almost 100 days. he's coming up to that 100-day point. and it's been a surprising progressive 100 days. it's been far more, far more

substantive than people expected. how does the passing of legislation that answers many of the questions that were asked over this past year, how important is that for him just as truman desegregated the armed forces in '44 and '48 and l.b.j. passing civil rights legislation? how important is it for joe biden's legacy to get this done? >> you know, presidents are often judged to the extent they tear down walls, not that they built them. this is a hugely important opportunity for this president, this congress, this moment in our democracy itself, of course, is still in crisis. we are still living in these

alternative universes where we don't differ on opinions, we differ on facts themselves. and that is a cancer at the heart of the democratic experiment that we have to continue to treat and tend to. but legislation matters. policing reform could end up being a generational, multi-generational landmark work of legislation. you know, we've pointed out if it weren't for those folks with the cell phone cameras, we wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation. and george floyd would still be dead. so i think it was jeremy bentham, the english philosopher who said, publicity is the very soul of justice. publicity is the very soul of justice. when light is cast on issues, we can at least address them. right now it seems to me the

president, the administration, the congress, the governors, the mayors, and again, all of us, the light is cast on this question. though there is often nuance in humana fares and issues, there is not a lot of nuance, if any, in what we -- the worst of what we've seen. all these other cases have happened. i think the reverend is going to preach today at a funeral. we have to keep after it. and that doesn't mean you discount the delivery of accountability and the verdict, but you do have to see this. it seems to me in the same way we saw the civil rights movement, which is that the sit-ins were not the whole battle. the freedom rides were not the whole battle. selma was not the whole battle. this is a skirmish one, but a war for justice goes on, and

it's going to go on forever because we're human beings. and until we, again, close this gap between our profession of devotion to the declaration and our practice of identity and selfish politics and culture -- until that gap is closed more instead of widened -- >> right. >> -- we're going to be back here having this conversation again. >> i'm afraid you're right. it must be addressed and willie geist and i can confirm it was indeed jeremy bentham -- >> yeah. >> an entry reformer, social justice warrior and, of course, the founder of modern unitarianism. so, yes, john, you did get that historical artifact again -- >> extra credit for john today. >> yes, give him -- he gets a point. >> i want to go to rev as we wrap things up for this block

here, for this important conversation about something jon meacham said. if it wasn't for those cameras, if it wasn't for is that cell phone. you think about things like this happened and it wasn't seen. those debates we had over body cams, which i can't believe we debated that, you know, accountability is needed. and being seen and having these recordings is vital from all angles. and it helps provide accountability. and i'm just wondering also, rev, if there is room in this conversation as we close it for this block, to say that it also shows there are a lot of good cops out there. >> i think that it shows that there are good cops and i think they will be exemplified by the policemen that testified at the chauvin trial. i think it showed the expansion

of social media and technology made more people -- don't forget, there was a video of rodney king 30 years ago, and those police were acquitted. >> i know. >> there was a video of eric garner and those police never went to court. it was that it kept coming. you know, we the people of faith believe god uses ordinary people to do extraordinary things. that young teenager with her little niece that filmed this, and we met her at the first funeral. she came. she was getting threats. she just did the right thing, and for whatever reason -- >> yes, she did. >> -- ignited something that has turned out to be historic. my two fears, mika, was if we won, we would say, oh, we won the case and move on, and not go for legislation. i don't want people to celebrate so that they forget that we have not in many ways reached the goal line which was new legislation. my other fear is that people not

mock this and miss use this to start acting in some way irresponsible and bragging the police can do whatever they want and get in their face in a way that makes mockery of this victory, because we didn't win this to become anti-police or to see what we can get away with or say to police in some disparaging way that we want a trial. let's see if we can win the history and we should show that we are worthy of the opportunity to make history here in a dignified way in the way we wanted police to handle us in a dignified way. >> amen. that trial, i believe, history will show it to be just like the year that led up to the trial, in inflection point. but the question is, what's america going to do now? in this moment? and now that we're at that inflection point, we have decisions to make.

and it's my hope that democrats in congress as well as enough republicans understand there's so many good police officers out there. and as joe biden said, and i think this is so important. joe biden talked about those police officers who every night, who last night had to kiss their children good night, had to hug their spouse good night, and then put on the badge and go out through the night and protect us, all of us. those good cops, they need to be recognized. they need our prayers, and they need our support through legislation that will lift them up and that will pull out and cull out the bad cops. i don't believe that their duty is to protect and serve.

there are so many, so many that we're so grateful for. >> right. >> and we thank god for them and what they do when they say good night to their children and go out to protect us. they have to be lifted up now, too. by legislation that encourages their type of behavior and culls out the behavior of the bad cops. >> reverend al, thank you all, all your work on all of these cases and this issue for so many years. jon meacham, jonathan lemire, thank you both as well. we're going to have a lot more ahead on this historic moment. we'll be joined by congresswoman val demings for her reaction to the verdict. and also what was behind her heated exchange yesterday with republican congressman jim jordan during a hearing on police reform. plus the latest on the pandemic. vaccines have nearly eliminated death and hospitalization from

coronavirus, so then why are so many vaccinated people still fearful? "the new york times" dave lanhart joins us with his new piece on that topic. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. find to reach your customers and new ways for them to reach you is what business is all about it's what the united states postal service has always been about so as your business changes, we're changing with it with e-commerce that runs at the speed of now next day and two-day shipping nationwide same day shipping across town returns right from the doorstep and deliveries seven days a week it's a whole new world out there let's not keep it waiting it's moving day. and while her friends are doing the heavy lifting, jess is busy moving her xfinity internet and tv services. it only takes about a minute.

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welcome back to "morning joe." 51 past the hour. some news now on the coronavirus. the european medicine agency says it found a possible link between the johnson & johnson vaccine and extremely rare blood clots. this comes after the company delayed vaccine distribution in europe. following its u.s. suspension last week, the agency examined a small number of clot cases in vaccinated americans and said these problems are very rare

side effects of the vaccine. it recommended a warning be added to the label, but experts reiterated that the vaccine's benefits far out weigh the risks. johnson & johnson will revise the label as requested and resume shipments to the european union, norway and iceland. the recommended pause of the vaccine here in the u.s. is still in effect. it is still paused. dr. anthony fauci says an update on that could come this week. joining us now, writer and reporter for "the new york times," whose piece is titled "irrational covid fears." practicing internist health care and mental health advocate dr. lucy mcbride. good to have you both on board this morning. >> so, david, i absolutely loved your story of the professor who would ask his class every year the same question, the same

challenging question. and you ask it again as it relates to covid. take our viewers through that. >> can david hear us? >> please, david -- >> oh, his audio is terrible. >> david's audio is breaking up, so we're going to correct that, david, and hear your anecdote. mika? >> lucy, i'm curious about irrational concerns for those who are receiving the vaccine and trying to, you know, navigate this pandemic. there still are some mixed messages and controversies, some of which we've had on this set, about mask wearing outside, et cetera, et cetera. a scenario for you. grandparents who are vaccinated, they live in a different state. can a family bring young children to vaccinated grandparents, or is that too scary? >> so, great question. thanks for having me this

morning in this historic and emotional time in our country. so, i don't want to speak for david, but let me say this. there are four points i want to make about the vaccines and then i want to tell you what we can do about those points. number one, the vaccines take death and severe disease off the table. number two, when you have been vaccinated against covid-19, your risk of getting covid-19 at all is .0005%. that's three zeroes and a 5. it's hard to get coronavirus after you've been vaccinated. number three, the vaccines are powerful weapons against all of the circulating variants. number four, the vaccines make transmission very difficult. we need to shift our internal narrative from one of fear to one where we can start taking small calculated risks. we need to shift the public's narrative to reflect this robust data and have confidence in the

vaccine. we need hope more than ever right this moment. >> dr. mcbride, it's willie geist. so, i think so much of this is out of habit at this point. we were talking yesterday about wearing masks outside. i'm walking around new york city last night, almost everyone has a mask on outdoors. in your view, is that still necessary? and how do we break these habits we've all fallen into? we think for our own health, but also as an unselfish act to not get other people sick. how do you start to break those habits and get back to normal life? >> sure. so we have been marinating in stress hormones for 14 months. we have been in fear, protect mode for so long. and as i wrote in the washington post a couple weeks ago there is a phenomenon called fear of normal, phono i'm calling it. it's a fear based way of thinking to let's live our lives again. we don't need to wear masks outside. it doesn't make sense. there is no one in medicine,

epidemiology or virology that is recommending outdoor masking unless, of course, you're in mumbai in a crowded situation, right. but in the united states where we're doing extraordinarily well, we're getting 3.5 million shots in arms every day, and nature is naturally ventilated. it doesn't make sense to wear a mask outside. at the same time, we want to care about others in our community. but we can do that by getting vaccinated. >> yeah, and i just want to underline the points that you made because, again, we're looking at science here. we're looking at medicine. and just as we've been critical of politicians over the past year that have ignored medicine, that have ignored science, now we need to look at those who are overreacting and i think we can use that word. that number, .0005%. when you're outside, three zeroes. and then on that you add the

natural ventilation outside and it makes -- we have to go, but i want you to underline this point to a lot of our viewers who have heard us saying people must be cautious and careful this year. but they do have to change their thinking. i want you to once again answer the question, is there any scientific reason for people who have been vaccinated to wear a mask outside -- any scientific reason whatsoever? >> no. you know, you can't -- 94% reduction in transmission, based on the israeli data, 94% reduction in the transmission of virus after vaccination. >> okay. thank you so much. we appreciate it. and, mika, it is time -- she's exactly right. it is time for our leaders to shift their thinking.

we have over 50% of americans who are vaccinated now. the rate of infection, possibility of infection is so low that we're not in april or may of 2020. this is a new time. and they need to adjust. doctors are starting to say that. we're seeing it -- a lot of doctors we've had on the show are saying, follow the science. follow the medicine. and the science and the medicine is saying, it's safe to go outside if you're vaccinated, without a mask. >> it's also important for grandparents to see their grandchildren. and if they're vaccinated -- i mean, it's almost a fundamental part of life to be able to reconnect. david lanhart's piece is amazing. check it out. >> we can't wait to have you. >> couldn't hear you. >> i'm not sure why they sent you to the dark side of venus.

we're going to get you somewhere closer next time. but, willie, you're all right. you go through a lot of cities. everybody is wearing a mask. you look at baseball games. everybody's wearing a mask. it doesn't make sense -- >> if they're vaccinated. >> if they're vaccinated, it does not make sense any more. >> the truth is we just don't have clarity on what we should and shouldn't be doing. the clarity that dr. mcbride just showed, and i think everyone who has a mask on in new york city is doing it in good faith. they've been told for a year and change now that you need to wear a mask so that you keep yourself safe and you keep other people safe. i just don't think people understand or know how low the risk is outdoors. dr. mcbride had a tweet, i think it was yesterday, said, not dying is important, and almost guaranteed if you have the vaccination. but what about living? at what point do we turn the corner and start living again? >> that is what we are all trying to do. all right. we're just about to hit the top of the hour.

so let's get to our top story this morning. guilty on all charges was the verdict rendered after ten hours of deliberations for former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin who killed a black man named george floyd on may 25th of last year by kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes 29 seconds. chauvin's bond was revoked and he was immediately remanded to custody at the oak park heights correctional facility where he will spend the next eight weeks awaiting his sentencing. he faces up to 40 years in prison. minneapolis residents who gathered outside the courthouse celebrated the verdict with tears of relief and crowds at the scene of floyd's death erupted into cheers for a guilty on all counts verdict that many were unsure they would get. joining us now, former u.s. senator now an nbc news

political analyst claire mccaskill. and professor at princeton university eddie glaude, jr. it's good to have you both. eddie, first of all, your immediate thoughts upon hearing the verdict. >> i was stunned, mika, to be honest with you. i knew the prosecution had put on a clinic. i knew the evidence was overwhelming, but i had a kind of earned skepticism. but i was stunned. and the knot that was in the bottom of my stomach wasn't tied so tightly. so, this is an extraordinary moment. but it's a beginning. the question is what will we do next. >> it is, eddie, an inflection point. you can look back at trayvon. you can look back at what happened in north charleston. you can look back at what happened in staten island with eric garner. of course, charleston, walter scott.

and that was an earned skepticism. but talk about the inflection point of this past year, of police officers going on the stand and with their words convicting a fellow police officer. and then a verdict that came in so quickly that i'm not really sure the jurors had a chance to draw a breath after they finally waded through all the jury instructions. >> yeah, yeah, joe, i think this is really important. we are in an extraordinary moment as a nation of transition, moving from one particular period or frame or one age to another. we've been saying on this show that the age of reagan is over. and what are some of the key components of the age of reagan? there is the debate between small government and big government. there is debate about the role of markets in public life. there, of course, is the issue around how this particular

approach to foreign policy. but there was one central pillar and that was a particular conception of policing tied to the frame of law and order. tied to the war on drugs. tied to being tough on crime that led to, at least a part of, the exponential increase in the incarceration of black folk, increase in black and brown folk. code, you can sneeze and make a law. violence at its core was evidenced. here we are in this moment where i've never seen in my lifetime this kind of verdict, right, in my lifetime, this kind of verdict, where that form of policing is being challenged. could you imagine, joe, in the context of the war on drugs this verdict? i mean, so part of what we're experiencing in this moment, i think, is this transition. we don't know where we're going to land. we may fall on our face. we may overreach, but we're trying to figure out what will

america be post the age of reagan. >> yeah, you know, claire mccaskill, when we were growing up, i would guess everybody on this set read "to kill a mocking bird." and at the end of "to kill a mocking bird," when the jury goes back out and comes back in, aticus finch was forced to take solace in the fact the jury stayed out so long, that even one person fiercely fighting for the acquittal of this black man, but had to be worn down. here we find ourselves not in fiction, but in reality in 2021, and the opposite -- we saw the opposite yesterday where the news wasn't how long the jury stayed out, but how quickly they came back in with a verdict. again, barely having time to get

through the jury instructions, i'm curious what your thoughts are and your unique insights exactly what that means. >> you know, joe, i've had juries talk 20 minutes and i've had juries take three days. it's very rare for a jury to take longer than that in state court. and here's the reason why. if you have a strong foreman or foreperson, i believe in this instance we did hear yesterday that the foreman was a male, if you have a strong foreperson, then probably what they did when they got the case, they went over the instructions in those four hours that evening. and then i'm imagining that they took a preliminary vote. and if the preliminary vote was unanimous, then there's very little else to do. and i think one of the reasons this jury may have gone so quickly is because the defense was rambling and stretching and,

you know, kind of trying to twist what the law was in their closing argument. and the jurors all hear that. they see it. they saw a closing argument that went on for hours and hours trying to reach for any little straw. and i think one of the other messages of this trial that's important to say today that police were the problem here. but maybe for the first time in a really meaningful way, police were part of the solution here. it was not just the bystanders which were very important, but the police coming forward and saying, no, this is not who we are. no, this is not acceptable. no, this was murder. >> i was going to ask you as a prosecutor, do you have any other examples, not only as a former prosecutor, but also as a public servant who has followed these trials year after year?

can you think of any other case where as many police officers came up and testified against a fellow officer like this? >> i cannot. now, there may be experts who have followed these cases more closely than i have, but i cannot think of another case where you had a supervisor. we had the chief of police, where you had other first responders, where you had really the people who have traditionally circled the wagons around bad actors in police departments, them saying, no, we're not going to do this any more. we're going to say what it really happened here. this was a rogue officer who did something that was totally unaccepted -- unacceptable in the united states of america. and that is a breakthrough that i hope was not a one off. i hope this now continues because i think police know that we became -- we came very close to -- if this had been a not

guilty verdict, i think you would have seen a real crumbling even past the point that we are of people just not believing in the criminal justice system in this country. and once no one believes in it, it doesn't work very well. >> let's bring into the conversation former member of obama's task force on 21st century policing, cederic alexander, an msnbc law alan lift. and georgetown university paul butler, an msnbc legal analyst. good morning, good to see you both. you so expertly every morning walked through and interpreted for us what we're seeing in that courtroom in minneapolis. so, what was your reaction to the verdicts as they came down yesterday? and also this idea that the prosecution asked the members of the jury to believe their eyes. they said, you're going to hear all these arguments and you've heard all these arguments about carbon monoxide, drugs in the system, officer chauvin felt threatened by a crowd that had gathered. in the end, you've seen the

videotape. believe your eyes. >> derek chauvin is a murderer. that's official. it's what our eyes told us, and now it's what the jury has found. and, willie, it should have been obvious based on the overwhelming evidence presented by the prosecution, but in other cases what's obvious is different than what the jury finds. and, yes, the prosecution's star witness was that 9 minute and 29 second video where mr. floyd narrates his death. the whole world saw that video. but there have been other videos in other cases and still not convictions. i think what's different about this case is what you've been talking about. the police officers who testified, ten. i've looked at probably every

high-profile case of a police officer in the last 25 years. i've never seen that level of police involvement in favor of the prosecution. so i think that made a difference. the prosecution put on a meticulous case. but at the end of the day, it was about common sense and the jurors believing their own eyes. >> and again, that video shot by a brave 17-year-old high school student named darnella frazier who stood her ground and recorded that video for history. cederic, what message does it send to law enforcement, these verdicts, and also the image of officer chauvin, former officer chauvin being led out of the courtroom in handcuffs? >> well, i think one thing, willie, that's important in this is that when we think about -- i heard us talk a lot about this, is that we had a number of police officials to come forth and testify. that is very true. but also keep in mind those high-ranking officials,

high-ranking officials in a very publicized, very public event that took place in such a barbaric way, it really puts you in a position where you can't do nothing but testify. what i'm more concerned with is the line officers who are out there every day, those that get engaged in activities that go against their policies, against the law, and will the person standing next to them on that call for service have the willingness and the courage to, under oath, testify against one of their brother or sister off ers? here's another thing i know. we have a lot of good police officers out there and some that don't conduct themselves accordingly. but it becomes incumbent now upon the demonstrated testimony that we heard from police leaders in this country, we need for that to serve as a model for the rest of us that we cannot

stand by and allow someone to go off the rails, someone to go on the other side of the law, put themselves in a position such as derek chauvin, put me in the position in all of my innocence and in addition to that, you put a community at risk and you put a country at risk because here is something i imagine is not going to ever happen again. people are not just going to stand by and allow a murder take place in front of them. so we all have some responsibility. and joe is right earlier in this. we have a lot of good police officers out there. we've got to lift them up. we have to let them know that we support them. and i think the message from all of this at the end of the day has to be this. there is a community that supports policing. but it supports good policing and is supports policing that's going to work to the best benefit of the community in which we all serve. i want to make sure those

officers and good officers get acknowledged. >> absolutely. i think most americans, cedric, would agree with you. there is no question about it, how much we respect police and want to see them do their jobs well and not have derek chauvin be the example that is held up for the way policing is and should be. you know, claire, paul mentioned that the star witness was this video, and that was underlined by the fact if you look back to the night of may 25th of last year, the initial report from minneapolis police read this way. the headline, man dies after medical incident during police interaction. it was classified as a medical incident. only because we saw the video shot by darnella frazier do we know what really happened. >> yeah, there was a knee jerk reaction to explain this death in a way that did not implicate a police officer. and i think it's important we all realize that is a knee jerk reaction. which brings me to a question that i have for paul. as we look at legislation that is in congress right now, one of

the things -- there are several things they are arguing about. one is whether or not we try to get police departments to quit using choke holds, or whether we ban choke holds, no-knock warrants. the one i'd like you to speak to to explain to everyone, the qualified immunity and the status they have, the protected status they have currently from the consequence of the consequence of their actions and what chance you think of it becoming law, if not now, sometime in the future? >> yes, that's a great question. qualified immunity is the concept that you can't sue me, i'm a cop. it says that when police officers are subject to civil litigation, they have special protections that other people, including other government workers and public servants, don't have. and it's an acknowledgment of

the difficulty of police work what to many folks it puts police above the law. police would still without qualified immunity have the same kinds of protections that other people in civil litigation have, but it's what's holding up the george floyd justice and policing act. it's a big deal for many of the republicans in the senate. that bill has passed the house and now tim scott is shepherding it in the senate. but for him and for other senators, the qualified immunity issue seems like a deal breaker. >> senator, eddie glaude, jr., has a question for you. eddie? >> hi, cederic, good morning. the interesting thing that happened yesterday, the powerful thing that happened yesterday with the court decision, with the jurors' decision to convict chauvin on all three counts was juxtaposed with another deadly shooting in columbus, ohio,

15-year-old girl who called the police for help as she was being attacked, was shot and killed. how do we address the issue of the use of deadly force? i know these are complicated situations. we understand the systemic nature of policing. how do you think about the deadly use of force in these instances even as we have this extraordinary moment yesterday, we have this horrific moment right after? how do we address the use of deadly force in this moment? >> well, you're absolutely right. there are very challenging and difficult types of events that take place. having been a chief, eddie, i tell you, i responded to a lot of those shootings, officer-involved shootings where we wounded someone or shot and killed someone. one of the things has to happen in your community when there is an officer-involved shooting and you have to have this before a shooting. a community must feel that they

can trust the leadership of that police agency. so if i have a shooting in my department, it is important for me that the community hears from me right away. not my public information officer, not a lieutenant, but me, the chief of police. here's what we know about this shooting at this point. we will keep you involved. we will keep you engaged as we learn more information, long as it does not get in the way of the integrity of the investigation itself. and throughout the length of that investigation it becomes important that the community stay engaged, they get updates in terms of where the investigation may happen to be. if you remember the breonna taylor case, one thing that upset that community greatly was the fact it went into an investigation by the state of kentucky ag's office, and nobody updated the community as to what was going on. so it leaves room for suspicion.

the other piece that has to happen in officer-involved shootings to maintain a sense of trust is that that agency that was involved in the shooting should not investigate itself. we've learned that, we determined that myself and others doing the task force report that was delivered to president obama back in 2015, it is important that that agency take that shooting, given to an outside agency to investigate and to investigate without bias. but you, first of all, before that shooting takes place, there must be a sense of trust that people have in you as a chief and as a department to begin with. that's the first thing that has to happen. >> cedric, i want to show you what happened yesterday and have you gauge how the columbus police did because they tried, in their words, to be

transparent. and the story i brought up, there was a police in columbus, ohio, who fatally shot a teenage girl yesterday, and portions of the body cam footage was released by the police officers hours later that showed an officer shooting a 16-year-old as she appeared to attempt to stab two people with a knife, and they showed this video. >> what's going on? what's going on? >> hey, hey, hey! get down! get down! get down! >> okay. and the video is stopped right there. >> terrible situation. >> cederic, here is an example, and tell us, they actually -- okay, we can get off that knife. hello, guys, right here. coming off of it, hello, thank you so much. so, cederic, they released the body cam footage immediately

after. they showed it regular speed where it appeared that there was someone -- the woman who was eventually shot -- the young woman, teenage girl who was eventually shot, had a knife and was about to stab the person. they then showed it in slow motion, and then they said, we're going to be investigating this. is that the proper technique? is that how you have that transparency to make sure everybody in the community has seen what happened almost, oh, my gosh, in real time? >> here's the thing. columbus p.d., i know they've had several other shootings here recently, they have been controversial. and here they are involved in another one. and when you release a video that is going to show the public what occurred, we have to

remember it's going to be sometimes video from one angle, it is going to be other evidence that needs to be collected because there may be camera video, door ring video from a variety of different angles. if in that chaos we just saw, that officer, whatever reason, whatever his training may have been, he made a decision to pull that trigger. he is going to have to account for that, for the use of deadly force. now, in all of this, one thing that that chief -- any chief will have to do, here again, joe, if you don't have a relationship in the community in which you serve, you can have bank robbers coming out of a bank with loot in one hand, gun in the other, shooting at the police and police return fire. people say the police should have done something different. that's basically where we are in this country because people right at this very moment, even post the verdict yesterday still

have a distrust for policing in this country. the legitimate policing is going to have to be built back up because of these events that have taken place so regularly, so close together. and any person who looks at many of these videos, we do question the integrity of these shootings. but in all fairness, there has to be an investigation from an outside entity that will ensure that community and keep those communities engaged as to how that investigation is evolving because in all of this, the average american person in any community usa understands that policing can be a challenging job. that call for service the officers in columbus went to yesterday, they were there on seen, they were in that moment of tenseness.

they are going to have to account for why they made the decision that they did, what occurred, and it becomes important that those officers that were at that scene on yesterday also take an oath and do what we just saw demonstrated in a court of law in minneapolis. and that is be willing to tell the truth and whatever that truth may be, tell exactly what you saw, how you observed it -- >> so, cederic, so tell me for the police that worked under you, if somebody were about to plunge a knife into somebody's side, what would you have them do, would you -- is it proper to stand back and let them stab them and make a decision after you see them stab the once. would you tell a police officer if you saw somebody approached by a knife, unless the video was

doctored, this teenage girl about to stick a knife in another citizen of columbus, ohio, what would you tell your police officers to do in that situation? >> what i would tell my police officer do and how they're trained is that under those circumstances -- and i don't want to speak specifically to columbus because that's the case that's in investigation. but under general circumstances, if someone is about to do deadly harm to someone else, you have the right and authority by law to take action to stop that threat. and if that's the case that happened here in columbus, then the officers were well within their right. it is unfortunate that it had to be a 16-year-old child. but here again, i don't want to speak specifically to columbus because that case is under investigation. but in general, we train our officers to protect themselves and to protect the public.

if someone is coming at you or coming at me with a knife and we're standing there as police officers observing this, they're not listening to our commands, then we have to take action. but what we also have to be able to do, we use deadly force, we have to be able to articulate what is consistent, a footprint, body camera and other witness statements. it is unfortunate, it does happen, but we have to look at each one of these cases individually. you cannot judge -- >> exactly. >> -- the last case, they all have to be dealt with individually. >> that's exactly right. i'm so glad you said that. those are great insights. we have to look at each one of these cases individually and not jump to conclusions on one side or another. and, mika, it is important to say we have the body camera

footage from columbus, ohio. but as cederic said, there could be other angles and that police department is investigating it. >> and so far being extremely transparent which is something that is needed. cederic alexander and paul butler, thank you for being on this morning. president biden called the verdict a giant step forward as he and vice-president harris addressed the nation after derek chauvin was found guilty on all counts. >> the guilty verdict does not bring back george. but through the family's pain, they're finding purpose, so george's legacy will not be just about his death but about what with you must do in his memory. >> today we feel a sigh of relief still it cannot take away the pain. a measure of justice isn't the

same as equal justice. this verdict brings us a step closer. and the fact is we still have work to do. we still must reform the system. >> the president and vice-president also spoke with the floyd family after the verdict was announced.

>> let's bring in white house correspondent for pbs news hour and msnbc contributor yamiche alcindor. you saw the president and vice-president connecting with the floyd family. making a statement in that connection as well as the address to the nation. >> that's right. what we heard from the president and the vice-president was that this can be a moment of significant change. this is a step forward. but they were also clear to say this was a murder in broad daylight, and that we cannot forget the last words of george floyd that "i can't breathe." the president there is making a real nuance in the fact this is not a significant moment for change, but it can be. meaning in this country african americans are 3 1/2 more times likely to be killed by police than white americans. being at the white house yesterday and being outside the white house talking to people there was a sense of bitter/sweet relief. sweet because the verdict

happened, the officer was found guilty of all counts. there was also this real feeling that justice is not served in these cases. you think of people like eric garner and tamir rice and so many others whose families even with video didn't get justice. i am always struck by the fact eric garner's mother told me, video is not enough. look at what happened to my son. he said i can't breathe 11 times and that officer didn't face any charges. i also want to say this morning i'm thinking about darnella frazier. that 17-year-old who filmed that interaction, because she testified she stays up apologizing and apologizing to george floyd for not doing more. and i just -- my heart is just so heavy for her because she and that first jury, i would say, it's the first jury of george floyd's peers. those americans who came out, who filmed this murder, who filmed this and said, this is not right, a collection of people who didn't know each other who then were able to tell that second jury, the jury that

had the power to convict this officer that this is not right, that is also a lesson here that even when it's scary, you have to stand your ground. you have to in some ways open your eyes and be a fellow citizen to other people. that is something i'm struck with this morning as we think about this country moves forward. there is work to do. part of it is on police and part of it is on us as americans. >> you brought up darnella frazier and the people who were standing there pleading for george floyd's life. i think the verdict was validation for them. they were trying to do the right thing and they were painted by the defense as sort of this unruly crowd that was descending upon the police and creating turmoil for them in the moment, when a lot of them were just like, what are you doing? you're killing him. please stop. and it was, in a way, validation for them to hear this verdict

yesterday. yamiche alcindor, thank you for your reporting. >> i want to follow-up with eddie. there were things -- listen, i understand that it's in the constitution, a defense attorney's job is to do everything a defense attorney can do to represent their client aggressively. so, we need to put that out there. >> that's fair. >> the defense attorney over the past few weeks, he has been doing his job. so, as far as the right and the need, the constitutional duty to represent defendants, check. we've got that. that being said, this argument that somehow those people that were around this situation as george floyd was being slowly killed over 9 1/2 minutes, and

then begging the police officer, derek chauvin to get off of him, telling him that he was dying, i really do think the most offensive argument if i were sitting on the jury was that those people were an unruly mob and that somehow derek chauvin feared for his own life because they were an unruly mob. why? why? because they were black? because they weren't affluent? i mean, there wasn't a whole lot else to read from that argument when people were just begging for george floyd's life as they saw it going out of him minute by minute, second by second. >> they knew what was going on. >> they knew what was going on. there was nothing unruly about them and there was nothing to suggest they were a mob. i think that argument backfired on them. >> i think it did, but i understand what eric nelson was

trying to do. like you said, he has the duty to defend his client by any means necessary, it seems to me. what he did was try to appeal to a whole host of assumptions, standing assumptions perhaps in the mind of one juror about policing, about mobs, about the threat of the crowd and the like. minnesota has had on the books for a long time good samaritan laws, duty to assist laws. when you hear the volume, you see the crowd -- not a mob, the crowd, citizens, the first jury as blackwell and the other prosecutors talked about, begging, pleading with chauvin and the officers to show mercy. so i think you're right, joe. there was this sense and it was kind of layered over and over again where nelson appeared, deployed, right, standing stereotypes that would trigger certain assumptions about policing with regards to particular people, particular communities. and for me it was one of those

triggering moments that was in some ways enraging, joe. >> that alleged threat was 17-year-old darnella frazier, her 9-year-old cousin among them, and let's not forget the testimony from a firefighter ofrlg to provide medical assistance to mr. floyd. that's who was in the crowd. let's turn to congressman hakeem jeffries, democratic house caucus. your reaction to what you saw yesterday in that courtroom. >> well, it was an important step forward and it laid the foundation to hopefully have accountability and justice and police reform here in america. when we also saw that video, members of congress saw it, america saw it, the world saw it, i think it was obvious to everyone that this was, this was a murder that took place in cold blood. thankfully there's been confirmation. there's no joy in that

confirmation. i think there is relief here on capitol hill. but we've got to turn the actions of those who stood up, who spoke up, who showed up across america, young americans in particular of every race, who wanted both justice in the case of george floyd and we got justice, but also want change that is sustainable and transformational. and that's our next task, that perhaps is the most important task that we can undertake at this moment. >> what does that change look like you to, mr. chairman? we know there is legislation put forward by karen bass. we know tim scott has his own legislation. cory booker working on this. you in the house have been pushing on the george floyd bill. what happened, president biden said in his remarks we can't stop here. what does not stopping look like you to? >> well, not stopping means getting the george floyd justice and policing act over the finish line. and as you've mentioned, in the

house that effort is being led by karen bass and members of the congressional black caucus in the senate. i know tim scott and cory booker have taken the lead. there have been bicamera conversations. we have to change the mind-set of policing in this country from a warrior mentality that exists among some, because when you have a warrior mentality, that's how someone is choked to death in front of the eyes of the world. you tend to view certain communities, communities of color, low income community of every race as enemy combatants, absent humanity and dignity. where we're trying to push policing in america, you tend to view those communities as individuals who should be partnered with to lift up public safety for the everyone. there are a series of measures we believe can help bring that about. but it's the mind-set change

that will ultimately lead to transformation. >> congressman claire mccaskill is here with a question for you. claire? >> good morning, hakeem. let me ask you about two important civil rights pieces of legislation that are in the senate. the first is the voting rights bill, which is there, and also the george floyd justice act that will ban choke holds and ban no-knock warrants and take a giant step forward in terms of police accountability and qualified immunity. tell me about what is going on behind the scenes to try to find ten votes republican side of the aisle to get this moving? is tim scott a friend at this point or is he a foe? >> senator, it's always great to see you. i think tim scott is operating in good faith. the question is can he find nine other republicans who are willing to operate in good faith. the approach that i believe

which has been taken and should continue to be taken, you laid out some of the more important provisions of the george floyd policing act, i was proud to have the eric garner excessive use of act which is the prohibition on the choke hold and other types of measures such as the knee to the neck that resulted in the death of george floyd. we couldn't move it in the house in prior years, but now it's incorporated fully in the george floyd justice and policing act. we've got to take measure by measure by measure. we have to take it on the merits, qualified immunity, prohibition of no-knock warrants, establishment of national use of force standard so that we require de-escalation tactics in the first instance. and the use of deadly force should only be deployed as a matter of last resort. i think our approach is to look at issue by issue by issue, and then the totality of the

legislation and see where we can find an agreement. but it's got to be transformational. it's got to be meaningful, it's got to be comprehensive to meet the moment. >> congressman hakeem jeffries, thank you for coming on this morning. coming up, whether it comes to defeating the coronavirus, our next guests are reminding us not to forget the children. there is no vaccine approved for kids under 16, as that age group is now increasingly accounting for many of the new infections across the u.s. that is next on "morning joe." we made usaa insurance for members like kate. a former army medic, made of the flexibility to handle whatever monday has in store and tackle four things at once. so when her car got hit, she didn't worry. she simply filed a claim on her usaa app and said... i got this. usaa insurance is made the way kate needs it - easy. she can even pick her payment plan so it's easy on her budget and her life. usaa. what you're made of, we're made for.

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pediatrics, and children's hospital association, nearly 89,000 pediatric cases were reported between april 8th and april 15th. children under the age of 16 are not yet eligible to be vaccinated, as the trials continue. since the start of the pandemic, more than 3.6 million children have tested positive and nearly 300 have died from the virus in the u.s. joining us now, former acting director of the cdc and president and c.e.o. of the robert wood johnson foundation, dr. richard besser. and executive vice-president of the robert wood johnson foundation and recently a member of the biden transition covid-19 advisory board, dr. julie morita. together they've written a piece in the usa today. to defeat covid-19, remember the children and don't let down your guard. doctor, i'll start with you. are these numbers surprising?

are they new? or are they standing out now because we have other areas more under control? >> right, so, i think we really focus in on the adult impact of covid over the past year. and what's happening now is we're actually paying a little more attention to the children because fewer and fewer adults are getting sick and hospitalized and dying. so the numbers of children who are being infected, who are being hospitalized and who are dying actually stand out more dramatically. we recognize that children have suffered throughout this pandemic already. millions of children have been infected, as you pointed out. in addition, thousands have actually had this severe inflammatory disease and hundreds of children have already died. so there's been the direct effects of covid, but there's also been indirect effects on children in terms of other aspects of their lives as well. >> dr. besser, we got some good news a couple weeks ago as you know, pfizer and biontech have a vaccine they say is 100%

effective in their trials for 12 to 15-year-olds. how promising is that to you? how quickly might it be authorized and get into the arms of kids, perhaps even by the upcoming school year in the fall? >> yeah, you know, willie, i always like to wait until the fda and advisory committee have reviewed the data. if it holds up, it's very exciting news. and i think if it is authorized by the fda for use in children, then this fall we could see vaccines that are available for children who are middle school and high school age. but we still won't have vaccines for kids who are in elementary school. i see across the country governors taking steps to basically say the pandemic is over. come out of your houses, get rid of your masks, get back to your life the way it was, and that really disregards the impact on children and recognition that what we do as adults are the measures that will protect kids. when we wear masks and wash our hands and keep apart, that helps

keep all of our children safe. you know, dr. morita and i are both pediatricians and we really focus in on the impact of children and it's broad. there is so much attention to the death rate of covid being so much lower in children. but as dr. morita pointed out, this pandemic has much greater impacts than just the impacts of mortality. there's impacts on the economy which hit children hard, mental health and losing parents. we have to keep at this until the pandemic is truly over and it won't be over until there are vaccines for everybody. >> and, of course, dr. morita, the question of schools and so many children in our country have not been in a school building since last march, march of 2020. what do you see as you look over the horizon, the long-term impacts, not just academically, but of a child not being in the classroom for that long? >> so, we know that traumatic events in children's lives can

really affect their health long term. they can have problems with physical health as well as mental well-being. and so it's really important for us to support our children and focus in on those aspects of their needs. it's reassuring to see the american rescue plan includes provisions that actually allow for children coming out of poverty. so there's unemployment benefits, nutrition benefits. there's also been increased infusion of funds to support the schools. all these things will help our children for the short term. what we need to do is sustain these efforts. so for the long term our children are able to recover from the traumas that they've experienced during this pandemic. children have lost parents. they've been isolated socially. they've not had enough food to eat. and it's really our job as adults, as parents, as pediatricians to really take care of these children and make sure that their needs are being met. >> dr. besser, can you give us a sense overall on the rate we're going in addressing the pandemic in this country, you know, there

are sub-controversies erupting whether or not to wear a mask outside if you're vaccinated. how are we doing in terms of getting the entire country vaccinated? i know of people in the virginia area who are signed up, but they still -- they're a long way up for getting a vaccine. are we running into problems especially with the pause from one company? >> well, you know, i think we are getting there, you know. when i see that there are 3 million doses of vaccine being given every day, that gives me hope. but we also have to focus in with laser intensity on who is getting vaccines and who is still being challenged because as we've talked about so many times before, while the pandemic has hit every community, it hasn't hit every community in the same way. and this goes for children as well. black, latino, native american, adults and children have been hit the hardest. and when you look at vaccination rates, the communities that have been hit the hardest by the

pandemic have those lowest rates of vaccination. a lot of that has to do with accessibility and challenges and getting to vaccines. that's getting better, but every state has to focus in on that and a lot of states aren't even collecting the data that lets them know where the problems really are. know where the prob are. >> thank you very much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. we want to turn now to a story that has a lot of those who work overnights on our show concerned. i've worked decades of overnights. a new study released yesterday suggests that middle aged adults who sleep less than six hours a night can increase their risk for dementia later in life. researchers followed nearly 8,000 adults in britain for 25 years, beginning when they were 50 years old, they found those who consistently less than 6

hours of sleep were 30% more likely than people who regularly got seven hours of sleep to develop dementia later in life. researchers found no general difference between men and women, while the findings are significant, the study is not concrete and will require more research to fully understand why and how this is happening. we'll be following this with some very selfish interest here, of course. important. still ahead on "morning joe" value demmings joins us with her thoughts on what needs to happen next in the push for police reform. we'll be right back. police reform we'll be right back.

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>> it feels like we can breathe.

>> we hear bad news after bad news after bad news in this movement. to finally hear something positive, like you don't even know how to react to that. >> i had such relief as a victim of police brutality at the hands of minneapolis police department in a similar manner during a wellness check. it was a moment of vindication of the community getting what it needs. >> those were some of the reactions activists gathered -- from activists gathered outside the courthouse in minneapolis yesterday to hear the verdict in the derek chauvin trial. we'll be following this throughout the day today. up next al sharpton joining us who is with the family of george floyd yesterday when the murder verdict was announced. and john meechum puts this moment into historical perspective. we're back in a moment. o historl perspective. we're back in a moment

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guilty. count two third-degree murder. guilty. count three second-degree manslaughter guilty. bail revoked and remanded into the custody of hennepin county sheriff. today we are able to breathe again. >> now he's a history. >> this is a victory for all of us. there's no color barrier on this. this is for everyone who has been held down, pinned down, and, you know, people, you know, we're standing together in unity. the brothers of george floyd reacting after a jury finds derek chauvin guilty of murder.

the first such conviction of a white police officer against a black civilian in the state of minnesota. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, april 21st. guilty on all charges was the verdict rendered after 10 hours of deliberations for former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin who killed a black man named george floyd on may 25th of last year by kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. chauvin's bond was revoked and immediately remanded to custody where he'll spend the next eight weeks awaiting sentencing. he faces up to 40 years in prison. minneapolis residents who gathered outside the courthouse celebrated the verdict with tears and relief. crowds at the scene of floyd's death erupted into cheers for a

guilty on all counts verdict that many were unsure they would get. minnesota attorney general keith ellison spoke at a news conference with the prosecutors who tried the case. >> i would not call today's verdict justice; however, because justice implies true restoration, but it is accountability, which is the first step towards justice. >> we need true justice. that's not one case. that is a social transformation that says that nobody is beneath the law and no one is above it. >> no verdict can bring george floyd back to life. this verdict does give a message to his family that he was somebody. that his life mattered. that all of our lives matter. let's bring in the host of msnbc's "politics nation"

reverend al sharpton and pulitzer prize winning historian john meechum. good to have you both to start off this morning. >> reverend al, you were there. you have been with the family from the start. tell us how they were doing. how they reacted to the verdict yesterday >>well, the court had covid restrictions so only one member of the family could be in the courtroom. the rest of the brothers and cousins and his daughter we were at a nearby hotel. we didn't know what to expect. it was a lot of anxiety and a lot of hope. i must say out of the years i've been involved in this and have stood with families, rallying with them through national action network, this family was strong and hopeful than most

i've dealt with. even then you don't know. when it came across the screen the judge reading the verdict, i looked over at the brothers and all of us simultaneously bust out in tears. to see grown men cry. it was the most emotional reaction i've seen in the decades. and said guilty the second and third time and all of us started embracing each other because, i think, deep down inside we believed it but we wasn't sure. we see tapes before, we've seen video before. eric garner and they were not even charged in that case. and 30 years ago in rodney king, and they were acquitted. deep then you wanted to reserve the right to say, well, i didn't

go for it all the way and the walls burst and you got at least this guilty this time. and you could say maybe we could make a difference. this family saw it. we were hugging each other and waiting. president biden called and vice president harris. i think the main thing they really fell for they lost their brother and now he meant something bigger than them. >> reverend, for some reason, yesterday after that verdict, in many ways a historic verdict, it was invoked to say that justice is not done. somehow this was not enough. justice was not done. that just ignores history. from emmett till to trayvon martin and eric garner and so

many different cases. to george floyd, those are cases where justice was not done. in this one case, the law requires us to take it one case at a time. justice was done and it was done after one of the largest social movements ever, and let me say it again for people that want to denigrate what happened yesterday. rev, you've seen it. we've talked about it. this is the first case where one police officer after another police officer after another police officer testified against the action of one of their own. this was different. this did make a difference. don't you think people should stop for a second and say, hey, wait a second. wait a second.

maybe all the work we did over the past year in the streets, in washington, maybe it made a difference. maybe this is something -- maybe this is something we can build on. >> i think that if we do not look at the fact that, yes, the rallies all over the world, intergenerational was impactive. they marched with us. all of that was great. but even when we saw the chief of police of minneapolis and get on the stand and testified against a policeman. it was not only critical to the trial and jury, it was critical to the movement to say that finally the world can say it's not anti-police. it's about police accountability. to where even now policemen

could say we'll break the blue wall of silence. now it'll lead to law and legislative change. it will not matter in history if we don't make permanent legal change, legislative change. we must now transition to a historical movement. that requires new laws and i think those policemen breaking through the blue wall of silence will help us get them. >> we sat next to each other on the set e last week and talked about the evidence in front of us. the testimony we heard and you said the prosecution made a great case but i've seen it before. we hold our breath because it's so hard to win convictions against police officers. so when we got the announcement of the three verdicts, guilty, guilty, guilty yesterday and then that image, rev, of former officer chauvin being placed into handcuffs and lead out of the room, that's the moment i heard from so many people

yesterday was the one that got them. there was so much history, there was so much frustration, there was so many years bound up in that movement where the police officer was not held accountable. what did that moment mean to you? what do you think it means more broadly? >> i think that when i saw this policeman handcuffed, what it meant to me is -- this is what i could face if i take the law for granted. that i could do whatever i wanted to do and i would not be held accountable. i would have hoped that we could have restored george's life. that photo is in the mind of every police officer this morning. that i will be held accountable. a policeman just like we do any others that break the law. and we must remember it's not

over. i think that meechum can tell us behind the breakthrough in a movement, you still have to do a follow up. where is the legislation going? tomorrow john wright, a 20-year-old killed by a 26-year veteran said she thought her gun was a taser. killed him. i'm doing a eulogy in minneapolis at his funeral. this is not over. we have to fight for legislative change. the fact we have the white house supporting the fight, we have some in congress supporting -- all of that is well and good but lyndon johnson supported it but they had to pass the voting rights bill and civil rights bill. we need legislative change. there must be accountability

built into the laws of this country. >> we'll hear from john meechum on this straight ahead. plus, val demings joins the conversation. she served as the first police chief in orlando. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back. to be a thriver with metastatic breast cancer means... grabbing a hold of what matters. asking for what we want. and need. and we need more time. so, we want kisqali. living longer is possible and proven with kisqali when taken with fulvestrant or a nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is approved for both pre- and postmenopausal women, and has extended lives in multiple clinical trials. kisqali is a pill that's significantly more effective at delaying disease progression versus a nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor

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2020 will be remembered for the pandemic but also for the movement of racial justice. the death of george floyd sparked a once-in-a generation shift. a shift in the minds of black americans and white americans that change is possible. his death turned the black lives

matter hashtag after the death of trayvon martin into a movement that reached all 50 states and beyond. there was resistance most memorable in our nation's capitol when the government that fought hard for justice and freedom abroad used force to clear peaceful protesters from lafayette square near the white house. the fight did not stop there. those fighting for justice persisted and a new generation was born. a generation of young people standing on the shoulders of those who came before them. john meechum, you're the author of "his truth is marching on." what would he think of the change? i think about the iconic picture of him standing with the arms crossed. i wonder what john lewis would be thinking today.

>> he would be thinking that we are a closer to what he and dr. king and james lawson and others thought of the beloved community, which is basically the kingdom of heaven coming to fruition and reality on earth. a place where we actually love our neighbors as our ourselves. as hard as it is, we love our enemies. justice comes down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream. john lewis believe if enough of us had the correct and loving dispositions of heart and mind, that we could bring about that ideal in the temporal world. that's the single most difficult thing for people who are theologically or historically minded to contemplate because it's about human perfection when

human beings define imperfection with our whole being. the constitution of the united states, for all of its failings, was a document essentially. that assumed we would do the wrong thing most of the time. it's a calvinistically informed document. if we had total power, if any element of the republic had total power, we were most likely to abuse it. as winston churchill said, you can count on the americans to do the right thing after we have exhausted every other possibility. so we've always proven, i think, that insight right. what john lewis and reverend sharpton knows this better than i do -- what he believed was that patient, brave, nonviolent

witness was the best means to redemption. that if he and his colleagues, ella baker and rosa parks and jose williams and the e numerable host of others whose names we don't know, but who made the best of america possible, if they would stand nonviolently, peacefully as sen tenials and lanterns for the country, for other people, to actually do what we said we wanted to do and be what we say we want to be. and that's closing the gap between a profession and the principles of the declaration of independence that we're all created equal, and the practice

of american life for 400 years which has been not necessarily to close the gap but to widen it. and the remarkable thing, i think, about this moment, which is simply a -- not simply, but it is a step as reverend says, we won't know fully what this moment means until we know what comes out of it both in the hearts and minds of the country and in the legislative reaction. as lincoln said, public sentiment is everything and public sentiment has shifted. has it shifted enough? so what congressman lewis would be doing is he would be saying close the gap between profession and practice.

so i think that maybe yesterday is selma. and it's on its way to a voting rights act, but maybe it's the niagara movement, which was in the 60 years before that. w.e.b.dubois and others made a part of the black freedom movement. maybe we're a couple of months away from genuine legislative reform, but maybe we're years away. that's the test ahead of us. and coming up -- >> can i have the floor, mr. jordan? did i strike a nerve? law enforcement officers deserve better than to be utilized as pawns. congresswoman val demings

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let's bring in civil rights attorney charles coleman and former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. 24 hours ago we sat together and you said it takes one juror. it takes one juror to hang this jury. what happened yesterday? were you surprised all three came back with convictions? good morning. thank you for having me. once i saw how quickly they had a verdict, i knew that was a good sign. at the end of the day, there are three options we're looking at. acquittal, unanimous conviction, or hung jury. and the reality is, i was convinced there was no way that they were going to be 12 people that in that amount of time came to the conclusion that absolutely nothing that derek chauvin had done had left him criminally liable. so i was able to immediately eliminate the possible of an

acquittal once i realized how quickly the jury came back. after that, all we're left with is the possibility of a hung jury. we had not heard anything about a mistrial or conviction. and i knew that the judge was not going to allow a hung jury at that point. frankly, because there hadn't been enough time. i knew there was going to be a conviction on something. at that point, it was just a question of what charge or charges were they going to convict derek chauvin of? when we get to the courtroom, we saw it was all three. so the amount of time the jury dlibtded and came to a verdict was an immediate indicator for me and a number of trial attorneys who had experience it was going to be a good sign for prosecutors after having laid out a brilliant and methodical case. >> joyce, there were some pundits yesterday after the verdict saying nothing to see here. move along. no big deal.

no justice done. those were people that weren't believing their eyes, that weren't believing their ears because maybe you've seen a police officer be tried and to be convicted basically by the words of his fellow police officers, and then see a jury go in and so quickly move against a police officer. instead of doing what they've done in the past throughout the history of this country and that is giving the benefit of the doubt to a police officer every time. that did not happen yesterday. joyce, if this happens regularly, if you've seen this happen many times in alabama and minnesota -- please let me know. i haven't seen it. yesterday i was stunned by how quickly the jury came back in. >> it's hard to have actually a national profile what these

prosecutors are like because -- required to report numbers, joe, which makes it tough to study. there's one lone professor at bowling green university who collects data on excessive force prosecutions and he estimates there's been about 73 convictions over the course of 16 years. so when you think about it, it's not just for homicides, that's for all sorts of excessive force cases. it means very few police officers are being brought to accountability. in my mind, that's what yesterday does. that vision of a police officer being lead from a courtroom in handcuffs sends a strong deterrence message. yesterday the verdict was significant on many levels. verdicts of guilt are always significant for families and victims. they represent, if not full justice, then at least accountability. but here we also see this beginning of deterrence that can impact the conduct of future

police officers. what we've seen just in the last week indicates that's sorely needed. the last thing that i'll say is this, i heard people suggesting last night some as you say the pun -- the jury took an oath, told the judge they could follow it and they were sequestered during their deliberations. what i'm forced to think about is the juries and police cases who i spoke with after they hung or after they rendered acquittals where jurors, as you said, gave police the benefit of the doubt. they said we didn't want to ruin the life of a police officer. i think what the black lives matter protests last summer did, i think what the influx of information to the national conscience about the wide spread police misconduct that we see did was it let this jury decide

this case based solely on the evidence and the law without some sort of a bias that said that police were above the law. now we live in a community where we can possibly have justice for everyone going forward if future juries will act this way, as well. >> joyce vance, thank you. there are big events planned this july 4th. so much depends on beating back the virus. one of our next guests is taking the lead on both of those fronts. country star brad paisley joins the discussion straight ahead on "morning joe." joins the discussion straight ahead on "morning joe."

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♪ ♪ we continue our coverage of yesterday's verdict in the case of former minnesota police officer derek chauvin.

a jury found him guilty on all charges in last year's killing of george floyd. the 45-year-old former officer faces up to 40 years in prison when he's sentenced in eight weeks. joining us now a member of the house judiciary committee val demings of florida. she was formerly the chief of orlando's police department, the first woman to hold that position. former senator and prosecutor claire mccaskill is back with us, as well. i guess my first question, val, is, you know, your thoughts when the verdict was read. what this means, and what your hopes are for legislation down the road >>well, let me say this, it's been a tough year. it's been a year of grieving. it's been a year of pain. we're all exhausted. i think people around the nation and around the world, quite frankly, were waiting on this

verdict. so when the verdict came down, guilty on all counts, i know it was a sigh of relief for people around the nation. i do believe -- i've heard a lot of discussion about whether justice was served or not. i believe justice prevailed on yesterday. a justice is certainly bigger than one act or one case. we understand that. we saw the community come together. we saw the criminal justice system at work, which certainly has its flaws. we saw bystanders from a 9-year-old to an off-duty paramedic to others. one by one testifying in the courtroom. we saw an attorney general who certainly was serious about putting a great team together to prosecute this case. we know that derek chauvin certainly had his day in court. i know the american people were

asked, the jurors in particular, were asked to not believe their eyes or ears. but, obviously, in this case the evidence was so overwhelming. the verdict was a great step in the right direction, all though, mika, we still have a tremendous amount of work to do. >> i want to talk about that work. just to point out -- to put a frame around the bystanders on the witness stand that were in that video, many of them so disturbed by what they were seeing and so kind of -- like, here we go again. like just helpless. absolutely helpless. good people who never imagined they would be in the spotlight like this. it was real validation for them, i can imagine. but the work that needs to be done. i feel like it's on so many levels. i want to ask you about legislation that you would like

to see happen that you think is necessary but, also, to point out as a former police chief, i'm sure you have seen many wonderful cops in your career and, you know, there's a fine line here in terms of morale, as well, to make sure that we see the good cops, too. >> i think it's important to remember as we deal with this tragedy and forge a path forward. it's important to remember there are hundreds of thousands of good men and women who put on the badge every day and the uniform and go out and keep their communities safe. this is about holding bad cops accountable and, you know, over the last year, i've looked at this situation through my social worker eyes and my law enforcement eyes. in terms of law enforcement, we do have the george floyd justice and policing act that is there, of course.

you know it passed the house. it's in the senate. we're hoping that the senate will take this opportunity to do their part. you know, attorney general ellison said it's in your hands. that's all of our hands. so this is an opportunity for the senate to step up to the plate, lay politics aside. we pray they will and pass this legislation. but it's just the beginning. as we talk about holding america to its promise, we talk about systemic racism in law enforcement, perhaps, we also need to hold america to its promise in all systems. from my social worker hat, we need to get serious about dealing with some of the social issues, the quality of life issues that plague communities in the first place. like poverty, high unemployment, low wages, sub standard education, sub standard housing. those issues that we have been

talking about for decades but seem to have never really done anything substantiative to address them. so while we hold law enforcement accountable, and we will, we also need to deal with those quality of life issues that cause decay in the communities in the first place. we need to come together as a community and get this done! if we have the political will to do it, i believe that we can do anything that we want to do. >> congresswoman, it's willie geist. great to see you this morning. you famously wrote an op-ed a few days after the death of george floyd, that we can now call the murder of george floyd in the "washington post" headlined "my fellow brothers and sisters in blue, what the hell are you doing." you laid out the reasons what happened in minnesota was wrong and what needed to change. i'm curious to hear you talk about what you saw in that courtroom over the last threw weeks, this was to say a chief of police condemning former

officer chauvin saying we don't teach that. that's not our practice or policy he violated to hear his supervisor at the time, to condemn him. use of force experts to condemn him. to hear the 9-1-1 at the beginning say i saw it on a monitor and it looked bad and i told my supervisor. what is it for the officers to come out and plainly say what they saw was wrong. >> when i wrote the op-ed, i did so as a member of a community that i love and also as a member of a profession that i love because we were able to do a lot of good things. every day was not perfect, but when i think about law enforcement, as i said earlier, the many, the hundreds of thousands of good men and women who do the job, what happened, clearly, with george floyd should not have happened. it was brutal and senseless and it's been confirmed. all though i said it a year ago

it was murder. things are changing and you talked about it. in this trial not only did we see bystanders who, you know, ordinary people who, by the way, did not have to get involved. they could have walked away. we heard them on the stand talk about they wish they could have done more. we saw the police chief, i mean, we can ask ourselves how many have we seen the police chief come in and say that's not our policy nor is it our ethics or values. we saw derek chauvin's lieutenant say that's not our policy. but then we saw the training officer come in and say we don't teach that technique at this police department. i believe their testimony along with the testimony of all the witnesses was come telling and convincing. we saw the strong, powerful

verdict guilty on all charges yesterday. >> given your life and career, yours is a crucial voice in this conversation. we'll continue to talk about it. i want to ask you about what happened yesterday, congresswoman, between you and republican jim jordan. it took place during a house judiciary committee. a hearing over the covid-19 hate crimes act. it was introduced by republicans preventing police departments from being defunded when you were interrupted by congressman jordan. here's what happened. >> i served as a law enforcement officer for 27 years. it is a tough job. good police officers deserve your support. you know, it's interesting to see my colleagues on the other side of the aisle support the police when it is politically convenient to do so. law enforcement officers risk their lives every day. they deserve better and the

american people -- i have the floor, mr. jordan. did i strike a nerve? law enforcement officers deserve better than to be utilized as pawns. you and your colleagues -- >> gentle lady -- >> should be ashamed of yourselves. >> the gentle lady will suspend and -- we want to admonish members, they must not interrupt someone who has the time. >> mr. -- >> you can't shout out. if you think -- >> i agree -- >> mr. jordan, you don't know what the heck you're talking about. you know nothing about what law enforcement officers -- >> i know about my motive. >> and you're using them as pawns because -- >> everyone -- >> i'm making the point no one may shout out when someone else has the time.

>> not nobody. >> not miss demings. >> not mr. jordan -- >> nobody. >> i agree with that. nobody may shout out -- >> when you give a speech, mr. chairman, about motives and questioning motives, our motives are questioned -- >> emotionally charged -- >> the rules allow -- >> you know nothing about that. >> jim jordan lecturing the former chief of orlando police about policing. congresswoman, give our viewers, if you can, a little context about what was going on that lead to that moment. >> we ran a mark up in judiciary yesterday presenting a piece of legislation that covid-19 hate crimes act that actually deals with or attempts to address the

increase in violence toward asian brothers and sisters. and i thought it was interesting that an amendment was presented by the republican side of the aisle that talked about defunding the police. if you're concerned -- and let me make this clear, there was absolutely nothing in the legislation that talked about defunding the police and if we're talking about legislation that deals with an increase of hate crime, you would think my republican colleagues are so in love and want to support the police, they would deal with the increase of hate crimes that the police have to deal with. to seize that critical moment and use law enforcement as a political pawn to interject something that did not exist it was not reality there was anything in the legislation that

talked about defunding the police was just simply ridiculous. and, also, when i think about the american rescue plan, as you know, a significant portion of the money was designated to go to local and state governments. so if you want to sport the police, you should have supported that piece of legislation. we do know that the republicans did not support the legislation. so it was about getting us back on track. let's stay focussed on why we're here and stop playing these political games. stop being obstructionists. let's remember january 6th when you were completely silent when the police were being beat down. it was about let's stay focussed here about why we're here.

>> i'm in your fan club. it struck a nerve in america and it was a important moment of righteous indill -- indignation. i'm betting you sergeant demings, probably captain demings, chief demmings and now congresswoman demings. on behalf of the people of florida, would you let us know, can we please call you senator demings? >> oh. >> oh. >> well, senator -- well, senator, as you can see, based on yesterday we still have a heck of a lot of work to do in the house of representatives, but what i can tell you is i am going to continue to do what i've tried to do in every position that i've held and that is to remember my oath and fulfill our most important mission and that is the

protection of the american people, and i'm going to continue to do that regardless of the title that i hold. >> okay. >> #runvalrun. run, val, run! run, val, run! >> and i am seconding what claire mccaskill has said. thank you very much for coming on the show. we appreciate you. up next, as our country's leaders work to convince more and more people to get vaccinated against covid-19 our next guest is joining that effort. singer brad paisley, and he's urging his fans to get vaccinated so that can happen, and when it comes to the impact of the coronavirus at know your value.com, our leveling up series continues with a fresh look at the challenges of a post-pandemic workplace. we're focusing on how, believe it or not, body language, even

on zoom can play into your performance and confidence and ability to communicate effectively. that and much more all at know your value.com. we're back in one minute with brad paisley. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪ - i'm norm. - i'm szasz. [norm] and we live in columbia, missouri. we do consulting, but we also write. [szasz] we take care of ourselves constantly; it's important. we walk three to five times a week, a couple miles at a time. - we've both been taking prevagen for a little

more than 11 years now. after about 30 days of taking it, we noticed clarity that we didn't notice before. - it's still helping me. i still notice a difference. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. empty seats can't cheer. they don't tail gate or fight songs. empty seats don't sing during seventh inning stretches and they don't know staters on superstitions. there's a sound a track for places like this and it isn't made in a studio. it's made by you. so when it's your turn to get the vaccine, be a fan. take the shot. >> that is country superstar brad paisley urging americans to get the covid-19 vaccine. on july 4th, brad will headline the free 18th annual let freedom

sing event and it's expected to be nashville's first major event since the pandemic last year. and the grammy award winner, thank you for being with us. i like seeing the inside of memorial gym and hope to see it filled up with fan, so why did you think it was so important to make this video, brad. >> first of all, i didn't know you were a vanderbilt grad. >> yeah, nashville. >> it's one of those things that i have some good friends that are doctors and throughout this entire time watching the way nashville has been hit hit me hardest for my line of work. when you talk about the touring industry and music and live events and the people that make their living with so many people i've really dug deep on these vaccines. my doctor friends have sort of let me know a lot of data. i've seen all of this. i've done my research, and i am

so impressed at what we are rolling out as a country, and so it's really important that folks realize this is the way back because i can't do this anymore. we've got to get back on the road. >> yeah. i mean, you've talked about this before and i've talked to a bunch of other people in your position. this, the entire family that travel with you on the road, all of the people in the universe and the crews that go and set up the arenas and the people that sell tickets and do those things, how big is your universe and how badly do you want to get them back to work? >> it's bigger than you can even imagine in the sense that there's people that i don't ever meet or know whose lives have been impacted and they're the folks who roll in early in the morning and they're the people who do the lighting and the local stuff and the caterers, and every city has how many venues, you know, tens of venues that are sitting there empty and

people make their living doing that. there are musicians in nashville that are delivering pizza now and it's the type of thing that we've got to get back to seeing one another in person, and i also think mentally as a society we need to gather. >> absolutely. >> no question. brad, claire mccaskill is here with a question. >> hi, claire. >> good morning, brad. i really want to prevail upon you and ask you about your friends in country music. i think you guys have such a powerful platform about this -- the vaccine-wary folks out there. have you visited with some of the other superstars of your genre to talk about doing exactly what you've done which is being on country radio or psas or using a way to convince people that the vaccine is something to welcome and not be afraid of. >> there are definitely some things bubbling about that.

i've had a few conversations with a few of my artist friends and several are vaccinated and others are, you know, about to. i think you're going to see some of that. we all realize, i think, maybe not all, but most of us realize that this is the safe way to get to do this. when you're going to cram 12 people on a tour bus and go down the road it makes sense, and it is so absolutely safe. these vaccines are really, really game changers and to get on a bus, i, for one, i don't have to wear a mask the whole time i'm on the road and neither do any of my employees and it's almost impossible when you're traveling like that. i think all of us realize that's the way back. >> there's nothing more fun than downtown nashville packed on a

summer night and you will do that with the let freedom sing event. how are you going to pull that off? >> well, i mean, one of the ways that we're pulling it off is that nashville's done a really pretty good job of rolling this out. we're -- as far as that goes, we are hopeful that the way this comes off we have a significant portion of the population that are immune one way or another and also it's outdoors which is a key, and i think that it's going to be -- it's also going to be very, very emotional and necessary. we talk about the mental aspect of getting back together, but playing music on that street for me, i can't even imagine what that will be like. >> it's going to be a blast and people are so excited about it. looking forward to that, brad and thanks for getting the word out about the vaccines and you have so many who tune into you and what you and your wife

kimberly have done with the store giving out a million meals over the course of the vaccine, there are people that need it. we always appreciate it. >> it's good to see you. >> we'll see you soon. >> wondering in our final moments, claire mccaskill, a day after we're still all still processing this verdict that has really rocked the nation, guilty, guilty and guilty for derek chauvin. what do you think it means politically? >> well, i think it has a lot of meaning, but i hope that one of the major takeaways from this trial is a message to good police officers out there, val demings referenced the lends and thousands of good police officers. it is now your time to stand up and speak out that you see things going on that you know in your gut are wrong. >> all right. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now.

♪♪ ♪♪ >> good morning. i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is wednesday, april 21st, a new day for millions of americans who are waking up to a new america, a new situation since the verdict of derek chauvin. many saying justice has been served, nearly a year after the death of george floyd, a jury found derek chauvin guilty of floyd's murder, with that, a country at risk of slipping into a new cycle of rage and protest, instead erupted in joy. on committing a felony find the defendant guilty. >> yes! yes! yes! [ cheering ] >> it gives you the chills. you can see