president biden around the message he delivers to the american people will be an interesting test tonight. thank you so much for getting up way too early with us on this wednesday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. the oath that i took to the constitution compelled me to vote for impeachment and it doesn't bend to partisanship. it doesn't bend to political pressure. >> if donald trump were the 2024 nominee, would you support him? >> i would not. >> okay. liz cheney, very good catching up with you. >> liz cheney -- >> pregnant pause there. >> yeah, exactly. like i'm not sure what to do with that. liz cheney staying the course when it comes to her defense of the u.s. constitution. it's easy for her. let's see if every republican can do that. >> trump and i we've had a hell of a journey. i hated to end this way. oh my god i hate it. from my point of view he's been

a consequential president, but today first thing you'll see, all i can say is count me out. enough is enough. >> i'm doing a golf tournament where president trump this sunday, may 2nd, in my campaign is going to auction a slot off to play in this tournament. you have lunch, you have breakfast with president trump. you get a photo. you play at his golf course in florida. it's going to be a lot of fun. >> a tale, willie of two characters. >> that is so painful. >> they had the strongest of convictions. they had the weakest of convictions. >> unfortunately there are a lot more lindsey grahams than there are liz cheneys. in fact two or three liz cheneys in this case. adam kinzinger others said what they said on january 6th, yeah, this was a bad day. you can't incite a riot, you can't bring people to the capitol in an insurrection and stayed to that which wouldn't seem that hard of a position to

hold. yet we see lindsey graham and kevin mccarthy headed right back on. kevin mccarthy went to mar-a-lago shortly after january 6th to get his photo taken with president trump and remind his voters he still stands with the former president. >> in lindsey's defense -- >> there's no defense. >> in lindsey's defense, he said what he said and then he went to reagan national and three people -- >> yeah. >> and a puppy dog were barking at him. and it freaked him out. and everything changed after that. >> yeah. actually everything changed on january 6th. and if you've been at the capitol, as we were both yesterday. >> yeah. >> it's desolate. the capitol police are heroes, and they've been through a lot and it's sad. it's unbelievable how completely transformed the place is. it's quiet. it's empty. it's supposed to be the people's house. there's just a few people working there. and it is tragic.

>> yeah. >> it is tragic what has happened. >> it is really something. i will tell you, willie, the one thing we did see when we walked past and saw the capitol hill police officers. yes, not everybody -- we've talked about it -- not every capitol hill police officer acted the way the capitol hill police would have wanted them to act, and they've had those investigations. they've handled those situations. but overwhelming number are extraordinarily loyal to the badge and to their duty and to their country. you can't help but thanking each one of them for their service as you see them up there on the hill. >> absolutely. >> and what they've done and what they know they still have to do because there are still enemies among us. there's still people -- >> walking in the building. >> talking aboutively about causing more chaos. >> they are protecting them as they do their job. >> they've got a big security

event tonight. they lost another officer a few weeks ago on the other side of the capitol who was rammed. so they've had a very difficult few months. one of the officers actually was on cnn last night with don lemon gave an extraordinary interview where he recounted what happened to him that day. you'll remember he was the officer on the front steps who was beat within a flag pole. he had several strokes. he has four children. and he began to ask himself what was going to happen to his children about their father. he was ready to die. he just said, he can't believe when he turns on the tv and watches some of the politicians, like the ones we just saw, whitewashing what happened on january 6th because he was there and he knows what happened. >> and you take ron johnson -- >> we're going to show that in just a little bit. >> united states senator from wisconsin telling americans that there was no risk that day. he never felt threatened that day. again, like you said, trying to whitewash the fact that ron johnson works with seditionists. ron johnson works with people

who actively encouraged people to come up to the hill and what did rudy giuliani call it? combat justice. >> yep. >> and don jr. saying we're coming after you. we're coming up there and we're going to love it. we're going to enjoy it. and donald trump encouraging all of this. by the way, why are we still talking about this near the end of april? we're still talking about the end of april because there are people like ron john who are whitewashing it. there are people like lindsey graham who are wanting us to forget, not only what happened on january 6th, but also that he properly blamed donald trump for what happened on january 6th. just like kevin mccarthy blamed donald trump on january 6th in a very heated phone call and then on the house floor. later saying it was donald

trump's fault. so, you know, the truth is inconvenient for some of these people who still want to hang out mar-a-lago, but the truth is the truth, mika. and there was an insurrection. 10th of a mile that way and we're not going to forget it. americans shouldn't forget it and they shouldn't forgive. >> so as you were describing, willie, here is the d.c. metropolitan police officer recounting his traumatic experience being brutally attacked by a rioter on january 6th and blasted the quote whitewashed rhetoric that followed the violence. take a listen. >> it's been very difficult seeing elected officials and other individuals kind of whitewash the events of that day or down play what happened.

some of the terminology that was used like hugs and kisses and very fine peoples, very different from what i experienced and what my co-workers experienced. i experienced a group of individuals that were trying to kill me to accomplish, you know, their goal. and i think that -- sorry, don. man, i didn't think i would get this emotional. yeah, i experienced the most brutal, savage, hand to hand combat of my entire life. let alone my policing career, which spans almost two decades.

>> that was officer michael fanone. can you imagine? can you imagine? >> and again, these terrorists that donald trump egged on, willie, used the american flag to beat officers and beat them within an inch of their lives. it's just staggering to me that you actually have people in the media on the right trying -- >> are we debating this? >> trying to down play this and trying to down play officer sicknick died of a stroke or had several strokes the next day. and you look at what all the officers went through that were beaten by donald trump supporters, and it is sickening that lindsey graham, it is sickening that kevin mccarthy,

it is sickening that a lot of these people are supporting the terrorists, the rioters, the seditionists, the insurrectionists that were trying to overthrow the united states constitution and stop the constitutional counting of votes. >> yeah. it's unforgivable, isn't it? when you look back and think about what led up to that day, the lies that were told for a couple of months leading up to that day, that it was a stolen election, these people had to stop the steal. they were driven there largely by the president of the united states but by others. and on that day by senators like ted cruz and josh hawley. and i would just ask, do you stand with police? do you stand with officer fanone lying on the ground somewhere in there being beaten with an american flag yelling i have kids, i have kids so that they wouldn't kill him? do you stand with officer fanone? listen to him. listen to his interview with don lemon last night and think about what happened on that day and

confront what led up to that day. there are a lot of republicans on capitol hill who know exactly what happened on that day, who were scared on that day, both still won't tell the truth about what happened. >> there are, of course, some republicans who will tell the truth. and who have told the truth, but -- and kevin mccarthy and lindsey graham, they're sort of in both camps. they told the truth early. and then decided that they might face some political ramifications for showing character and speaking out against this insurrection and the people who inspired it. but that was then. this is now. and now lindsey graham wants you to know that there's a really cool golf package that you can be a part of if you spend enough money, you can hang out with a guy that was responsible for this insurrection and the brutalization of police officers with american flags. i'm sorry. i already have weekend plans.

it sounds like for patriots, people who love america, there's a lot better things they can do with their weekend. >> good lord, this is sick. >> that's lindsey. any way, along with mika and willie and me, we have host of msnbc politics nation reverend al sharpton and washington bureau chief elizabeth boomiller and white house editor for politico sam stein. you look, elizabeth, you look at those pictures, you look at lindsey graham's speech on the floor, you look at the speech of kevin mccarthy, they were outraged by donald trump's behavior until they realized it might cost them a little bit politically. liz cheney said what she said what she did before and after. it's liz cheney and a couple

other republicans who don't really care what the political consequences are. they're speaking truth to power. >> yeah. you know, kevin mccarthy just made the calculation, like lindsey graham, that being close to donald trump is important to his political future. his goal is to become speaker of the house, should republicans win back the house in 2022. so he made the calculation. people say he knows privately exactly what the problem is with donald trump. he's exasperated and appalled by his behavior as anybody else but he made the calculation that he's too important to his political future to denounce him, to do what liz cheney did and lindsey graham. and kevin mccarthy is trying to, as he says, thread this very difficult needle and keep an open door to president trump. but i don't know how long -- i don't know if this is going to

wear well over time. i don't know what this is going to look like next year. that's the big question. you know, you can see some of the support for donald trump ebbing away already. you can see how low his approval rating is right now. again, i think it's -- i'm not sure it's the right calculation right now. >> yeah. in politics usually a train moves on. i think this is going to be one more example of that. at some point and you may be right early next year people are going to look at ron desantis or someone else as a leader of the party. sam stein, elisabeth, boy, she's dead on about the calculation that kevin mccarthy has made. kevin has told people and told people january 6th and after how outraged he was at donald trump and that it was unforgivable what donald trump did and that donald trump was an idiot. he couldn't -- >> he was very clear. >> he could not have been harsher to people close to him and even now weeks later, a month or two later, his attitude

for people around him who i've talked to is, what do you expect me to do? if i want to be speaker of the house, i have to have donald trump support. so he went down and kissed the ring and he's very clear. it's not like he's saying in private the same thing he's saying publicly and private, he's blasting donald trump but he's just extraordinarily cynical about it and says what do you want me to do? if i want to be speaker of the house i have to have this guy on my side. >> yeah. during the course of the second impeachment trial, we got news and word of that now infamous call that mccarthy had with trump in which trump basically said i guess i care more about the election than you do, kevin. that was a time where mccarthy could have made his first pivot away from trump. he could have stood up in that moment, made the calculation,

embraced the call essentially and said, yeah, this happened and it's proof we need to move on. but in that moment he made the calculation in the other direction what you're talking about is that his career objectives were in line with embracing trump instead. so he went down to mar-a-lago. i will say there's another member of the gop leadership who has gone the other direction and said it's not worth it and that's liz cheney. her status in gop circles is imperilled because of it although she is still in leadership. it's clear how much clearer her conscious is when she's asked these questions. she has a little pause but the pause is for dramatic effect. not because she's thinking this stuff through. >> she's good. >> no calculation going there. >> she knows what she wants to say and she says its. the only thing i would say is i'm not totally convinced that mccarthy's gambit doesn't work out for him, honestly.

trumpism may be ebbing a little bit, but you look at these polls, john bolton did this super pac poll which was clearly done designed to show that trump's support was fading, but even in that poll they tested 2024 nominees and trump was 48% and the next closest person desantis was at 9%. very reminiscent at 2016, he's not over 50, but eventually they just coalesce around him. his power is still very tangible. it's obvious with lindsey graham doing these golf outings. i'm not sure he fades that quickly. it could be this persists through 2024 when he has to make a decision whether he runs for the presidency. >> well, this morning, we are learning new details about president biden's address to a joint session of congress tonight. a key theme will be a government that works. one white house official said the address will be something of a victory lap on his

administration's handling of the pandemic. vaccination campaign and the immediate impact of the american rescue plan including the stimulus checks. it will also be a, quote, sober assessment of what we've been through. and a, quote, clear eyed assessment of the challenges we still face. the white house says racial justice will be another major theme. one official tells nbc news the president will make a, quote, effusive push for the senate to take up the police reform bill that has already passed the house. senator tim scott, the lead republican negotiator on police reform, will deliver the gop response. there will be no guests in the gallery. so it will sound very different as well. lawmakers will be seated there to allow for social distancing. house minority whip steve scalise says 25 house republicans will be present. many of them freshman members. senator john thune expects 60

senators will attend, 30 from each party. prior to his remarks, white house press secretary jen psaki says the president will meet with staffers who were inside the capitol during the january 6th attack. the white house says he will take his message on the road beginning tomorrow with a trip to georgia. friday the president will visit philadelphia where he will also mark the 50th anniversary of amtrak. willie? >> of course he will. he'll also tonight in the address will formally announce his american families plan that expands healthcare, child care and education assistance. the president reportedly will ask congress to pay for the entirety of the $1.8 trillion in new spending by increases taxes on the wealthy doubling the capital gains rate. the administration plans to use revenue from some of the corporate tax increases he announced last month. so, rev, $1.8 trillion, this is

a new package in addition to the $1.9 trillion we had for the covid relief, 2.25 trillion proposed for infrastructure, 1.8 trillion here. this is really about education. it's about fighting poverty, extends education, pre-k, makes that national and then pays for two years of free community college. so extends frankly our education system from k through 12 pre-k into college among other things. what do you make of the plan? and what you might hear from the president tonight? >> the plan is necessary because you must remember we're dealing with this in light of a nation that's been virtually in lockdown for over a year. and many of our youngsters or students out for a year, those that are in areas with broadband deserts couldn't do education online, we need this investment to not only bring us to an even

playing field but to play catchup for those already behind before the pandemic, now are handicapped even further. so i think that when you look at the context in which the president is making this address and reaching out and making this request, you must say that the president is right on point here. so, i'm anxious to see how he lays it out. i'm anxious to see what his emphasis is on racial justice and policing. i think that you've got to deal with the time in which we're in and the forecast for this speech tonight says the president is going to address the times, not duck the times. >> elisabeth, the numbers really are staggering. just throwing around trillions and trillions, using that term very casually at this point. this new plan the proposal we'll hear tonight about education does call for another tax increase. we already know that the plan we're the middle of discussing right now on infrastructure is being held up by republicans because of a proposed tax

increase. what are the prospects for getting all this legislation through the congress? >> well, i don't think they're going to get any republican support. if you add up all the three different packages of infrastructure, human infrastructure and stimulus, it's $6 trillion. that's extraordinary. and president is proposing to pay if r this by increasing taxes on the rich, and also proposing to give $80 billion to the irs to crackdown on tax cheats. if you make more than $400,000 a year, you have a much better chance that this passes of getting audited. and they're arguing they can generate $1 trillion in extra money from, you know, getting people to pay their fair share of taxes. we shall see. but i don't think they're going to get any republican votes. this is going to be done through process called reconciliation

and i think it's only going to pass with democratic votes, including interestingly enough there's a lot in the infrastructure plan, traditional infrastructure plan, that republicans like, bridges, roads, you know, tunnels. and it looks like some republicans are going to vote for big infrastructure plans in their own districts and, you know, but there's just no given these tax increases i don't think there's any prospect of getting republican vote. >> willie, i wonder about joe manchin, kyrsten sinema, so i think if you add up all of the covid relief bills from last year and this year, it adds up to about $4 trillion, if i'm not mistaken. you add on top of that the 1.9 -- or add on top of that the $2.3 trillion infrastructure plan, you add on top of that now $1.8 trillion, i mean, man i

don't know -- well, i don't know how those numbers add up. i'm just a simple country lawyer, but at some point a trillion here, a trillion there, soon you're talking about real money. >> it is extraordinary. and i know republicans who are trying now there have been some behind the scenes meetings about infrastructure, pieces of this giant bill can agree on and pass and are going to hear you want to raise taxes again on somebody else, sam stein, obviously the infrastructure bill is difficult enough. tonight president biden will lay another $1.8 trillion proposal on a congress that he's trying to get to do this deal that he's the middle of right now on infrastructure. >> yeah. elisabeth is absolutely right. the idea that there would be republican votes for this is wishful thinking i would say is a good way to put it.

probably not going to happen. ironically with tax hikes they are calling for to pay for this stuff polled better than the package. they want to soak it to the rich, corporations, rich americans, raise the marginal rates, go for it. i just want to step back and note just how extraordinary this package is that he is going to introduce tonight. you know, any one of the components in this package, parental leave, child tax credits, pre-k on their own would be a policy white whale for democrats. these are generational struggles that the party has pursued. they're going to bundle it all together and say let's do it at once. it will be a monumental restructuring, if it passes a monumental restructuring of the american economy. it will dramatically overhaul the composition of our work force. it will reduce work force productivity in ways we're not familiar with but it could on the flip side, if you're concerned about deficits, first of all, you should have spoken

out a bit more during the trump years, but now you're confronted with what joe notes as trillions and trillions of dollars of spending, even though this portion will be paid for, but you might be concerned about overheating the economy and inflation, too. so those are the things he has to juggle, those concerns in addition to the idea that republicans will come back at him and say, look, this is just too much spending too fast. there's no way you should be going alone on these monumental huge packages. you need to slow it down. >> and elisabeth, because these bills are so massive, because the scope is as sam said generational, kind of hard to get the problem solvers caucus together and say, okay, we're at, oh, i don't know, we're at $1.9 trillion. you're at $500 billion. let's meet the middle somewhere. it makes it difficult for republicans and democrats to come together because again joe

biden of all people is doing his best fdr right now and trying to change the side and scope of government in a way that no president has since lbj in 1964. >> you know, people say that joe biden now -- first of all, he's been very motivated by the talk that this is like -- he's like fdr. this is very exciting to him and thrilling to him because he's not he wasn't seen as a transformational president when he was elected. but he is a president in a hurry. he sees, obviously, like everybody else he could lose the house in 2022. so he's got about until the end of -- he doesn't have a lot of time to get this stuff through. and so they're moving really fast and really boldly. and the other thing that he's doing is making a big bet on the middle class and deciding the way to lift up the country is to

lift up the middle class. as we all know in 2008, 2009 when congress passed the big rescue plan after the financial crisis, the people who benefitted were the rich. we can see that over a decade. and they are determined now to go about this a different way and to tax the rich who have really benefitted and done super well the last two decades and done very well during the pandemic. rich were able to stay home, work from home. they stocked away savings. you can see all the numbers. >> yep. you can. people who are really suffering. so are you guys all ready for a really late night? willie, you up for it? >> yeah, really. where are we going? >> if late means 6:30, 6:45 so i can get ready for wheel of fortune at 7. >> no, sweetie, no. not going to be like that. >> crackers and warm milk, yeah, i'm ready for a late night. >> join us on peacock for coverage of the president's address to congress. we're going to start things off

at 8:30 p.m. eastern. >> wait, it ends at 8:30 p.m. eastern. >> no, no, no. >> it starts at 8:30 p.m. eastern? >> we're going to have a great time. join us. >> willie, what? what happens after 8:30 p.m. eastern? >> that wheel of fortune, jeopardy block you usually don't make it to jeopardy. you pass out right at the final puzzle when sajak and vanna say good night. >> i get in the la-z-boy and slumping in the chair. >> joe will be up working really late tonight. still ahead on "morning joe," white house principle deputy press secretary karine jean-pierre will be our guest. plus, after on going debate, the cdc finally eases its guidance for wearing masks outdoors. >> i'm dr. joe. we'll be right back. finding new routes to reach your customers, and new ways for them to reach you... is what business is all about.

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starting today, if you're fully vaccinated and you're outdoors, you need -- not in a big crowd, you no longer need to wear a mask. the cdc is able to make this announcement because our scientists are convinced by the data that the odds of getting or giving the virus to others is very, very low if you've both been fully vaccinated and out in the open air, so go get the shot. it's never been easier. and once you're fully vaccinated, you can go without a mask when you're outside and away from big crowds. the bottom line is clear, if you're vaccinated, you can do more things, more safely both outdoors as well as indoors. so for those who haven't gotten their vaccination yet, especially if you're younger or

think you don't need it, this is another great reason to go get vaccinated now. now. yes, the vaccines are about saving your life but also the lives of the people around you. but they're also about helping to get us back to more normal living. getting together with friends, going to the park for a picnic without needing to mask up. we're back to that place now as long as you get vaccinated. >> president biden yesterday commenting on the cdc's updated guidance on mask wearing. fully vaccinated people can now forego wearing a mask outside in small group settings. regardless of other people's vaccination status. the cdc recommends everyone wear

a mask outdoors in a crowded setting. so there you go, joe. you were right. they just were waiting to catch up with their guidelines. and it was an abundance of caution, but this is good news. and for young people, it's actually incredible news. a lot of young people are really suffering and want to have that human connection and see people and be able to go outside and be safe. >> it's what we've been talking about now for a month or two, that the same people that were criticizing donald trump for not following the science, need to follow the science. and if your cdc director, dr. fauci is saying open up the schools for mental health reasons kids need to be in school and the risks are very low and if you're seeing people talking about going outside without masks, we need to follow -- we all need to follow that guidance now that it's cutting the open the other way. we have a chance to reopen this society. >> it really shows how political

people have become because they wouldn't follow the science when dr. fauci and others were warning us to be very careful and to wear masks and to limit our exposure to others. they were adamant they were not going to wear the mask and they were not going to do what he said. now when they are relieving some of that, now they're going to say, no, we're going to do it. we don't trust that. and i think that it is really, really exposing how polarized a lot of people are on a political level when we're talking about something clearly we ought to be listening to the health experts and now that they're easing up, it is something that we ought to listen to them as well about. >> yeah. sam tine, i was in boston in early april, talking about how the place so much of it was just shut down in a way that really wasn't lining up with what cdc

was saying. went to fenway with my boys to see a couple games. they let three people in fenway. seriously, if you still look at those games, it's insanity. i think they're at 13 or 14% now. there's nothing the state of massachusetts is doing or other states that lines up with cdc guidelines. it's political and they're going the other direction. i'm not saying they need to be like the texas rangers where they have contests to see if they can get everybody in the stadium and stack them up three or four on top of each other, but seriously, you look. there's a country mile between people that are watching games at fenway and last night at citi and other stadiums. these people need to catch up with cdc guidelines. >> yeah. look, i'm with the rev. you just got to go by the science, right? this is what they've been preaching from day one, wear

masks because they're helpful. get vaccinated because you can return to life more normal fashion more quickly. everything scientifically tells us and the cdc is now catching up on this is that outdoor events pose very little risk for transmission. so bring life outdoors as much as you possibly can and that includes baseball games. yeah, the images of the texas rangers packed stadium you know gave me palpable heart palpitations. oh my god, what is going on there? i wouldn't necessarily go that far, but yes, i think we now have scientific consensus that being outdoors is safe. we now have scientific consensus that you can be outdoors without a mask in certain settings and the people who were passionately arguing that we should follow the science at all times should embrace these findings and go with them and practice what they preach. >> yeah. willie, follow the science when we're shutting society down, when we're shutting business

down for good reason. and now they're basically saying ignore the science. we need to ignore what the cdc is saying. i mean, it's ridiculous and extreme on the other end. >> yeah. there's no question. by and large most people are trying to do the right thing. they don't want to be controlled or have their freedom taken away but they're listening to leadership and public health expert. so it's important when the cdc makes a statement like this, just anecdotally being out last night for new york going for a run or bike or whatever you're doing, big crowds of people and have the people didn't have masks any more. gone a week ago, almost everybody has the mask on. people are listening to their leader. it's important that the cdc take the lead and they finally did that yesterday. it's also worth pointing out, we joke about the rangers. it is those images were jarring at first, but when texas started to roll back those measures, remember president biden called it neanderthal thinking. a lot of concern about what was

going to happen there. they have not seen a spike in cases in texas, which has been fascinating to watch. they've taken away the mask mandate. they've relaxed a lot of rules about what people can do and where they can go and capacities and restaurants and there has not been a spike. that's been an interesting test case. >> that is really interesting. >> i'm not a doctor. >> no, you're not. >> though i play one on television. >> not even close. >> and it seems to me. >> oh my lord. >> if we go back over the year, elisabeth, we can see trend lines. i can't wait five years from now to see how epidemiologists look back and see what we got right and what we got wrong. but this really does go in waves when it first started in february and march, you had the northeast that was getting hit. then remember ron desantis going out and i think it was maybe april or may of last year and he said, we did everything right. we did everything right. then it got hot. >> it went to the white house. >> and then everybody went --

then everybody went inside? arizona and texas and florida and what happened? because people in the northeast were going out, infection rates went down. because everybody in the south in texas, arizona, florida, we suddenly saw this spike. it's very clear that when you're inside and there's not a lot of ventilation, this is how covid it appears spreads. so the northeast i suspect now is going to really see -- numbers are already going down, but i suspect in the northeast now with the warming up we're really going to see numbers plunge because it's really hard to get covid outside. >> well, talking about the mask mandate, though. it's been so over time over the last year and some it's been so confusing because there have been -- the cdc has been all over the place on masks. in the beginning they said you don't need to wear them because there was a shortage. then you had to wear them. and then they said wear them outside. it never made sense to me that i

had to wear a mask outside if there was nobody else around in the woods. it never made sense, but i would go down to the park and there's people in the park with the dogs. you wear a mask. but interesting to see this weekend what it looks like. but the mask guidance has been very confusing. even yesterday when they said you don't need to wear a mask in small gatherings but medium sized gatherings you do. what is a medium size gathering? you have to figure it out ourself. i also think when biden talked yesterday about, you know, fully vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask outside. that was an incentive, i think, to try to get people to be vaccinated. there are real advantages to being vaccinated. you can get part of your life back. i think that was part of the plan, too. i agree with you. i've been having dinners outside under the heaters on my deck for a year now when i've had family members over. none of us were vaccinated back when.

and i'm eager to go back inside, at least, when it's cold in the evenings. but it's a nice page. i do remember christmas brunch outside under the heaters when it was sort of snowing. so, those will be -- we'll have those memories for a long time. >> i was going to say, they will be nice memories. but you know, mika, a couple -- i think it was a month or two ago when i was in los angeles. you know, we showed the stories because it's viral. we show the stories of people from six months ago knocking over racks of masks in target. walking on a sidewalk in l.a. without anybody within -- and actually same thing happened with ari. walking on the sidewalk nobody within half a mile of me. >> did you get screamed at. >> somebody across the road going 15 miles an hour, put on a mask blank blank, to which i

yelled back, blank blank. and no, willie, i would never do that. >> no. okay. >> it's this craziness on both sides where people really need to read the cdc guidelines. they need to use common sense. and tired -- i hate we have to keep saying this, willie, but what's fair for the goose as aristotle said is gar fair for the gander. you can't attack donald trump for ignoring science guidelines and ignore science guidelines because it makes you feel morally superior because you don't want to go back to school or whatever is motivating you or because you don't want -- you're building to open back up. it doesn't work. we have to follow the cdc guidelines and get this country open again. we've got over 200 million people vaccinated now. 200 million people.

and people are -- let's just wait for the next 100 million. no, let's not wait for the next 100 million. let's follow science. let's follow the cdc guidelines. >> yeah, absolutely. and schools are the next frontier. i mean, i think as you talk about history of the last year will be unkind to many people who were fighting to keep schools closed. of course we want to have teachers safe, but it was established long ago that schools could be open safely and many of them still are not open. but we have to get people vaccinated as elizabeth said. you have seen amazing messages from republican members of congress who are doctors, cutting psas literally wearing their lab coats and just they say as a visual representation i am a doctor. i am a republican. i represent you. you can trust me. please go get your vaccine. because that really is the way out of this if we can reach a certain percentage of this country vaccinated we can squash it but we're not there yet. >> there are those who still believe it's scam. there you go.

elizabeth bumiller thank you so much for coming on this morning. coming up, marco rubio's woke capitol tantrum. that's what new york times columnist michelle goldberg is calling rubio's recent column accusing corporate america of, quote, bending a knee to woke progressive craziness. michelle joins us next. also ahead, our conversation with former defense secretary and cia director leon panetta. what he's saying about the decision to withdraw u.s. troops from afghanistan. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪♪ ah, she thought that squirrel on your brand-new flat screen tv was an actual squirrel... leave it. purchase protection for what you didn't see coming.

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i found it completely discouraging to find a bunch of

corporate ceos getting the middle of politics. my advice to the corporate ceos of america is to stay out of politics. don't pick sides in these big fights. >> that was senator mitch mcconnell earlier this month calling out corporate america for criticizing georgia's new voting overhaul while he walked those comments back a bit, it looks like the rift between big business and the republican party is growing a bit. senator marco rubio's latest op-ed for the new york post slams companies. the republican senator writing, quote, corporate greed annihilated an entire way of life. joining us now michelle goldberg, columnist for the new york times who writes about senator rubio's argument in her latest column. let's set this up a little bit, michelle. good morning. senator rubio wrote in his piece, these hip cats want to have it both ways. coast off everything america is most business friendly country in the world and waging merciless war against traditional value miss ch so far

they've succeeded getting in bed with the chinese communist party opened up enormous new markets. outsourcing jobs has been a tremendous cost-saver. bending a knee to woke progressive craziness has made crows more popular than ever in elite settings. but the bill is coming due. more politicians are realizing what i understand as our corporate leaders care less and less about the strength of our nation, the policy advice they give lawmakers makes less and less sense for our country. michelle writes, quote, rubio is following a model pioneered by trump, rail against big corporations occasionally bully those that defy you but ultimately put their profits and influence first. en issues of race and sex the disjunction values of the republican party and those of big corporations is a function of our countermajoritarian politics because of gerrymandering and the small state bias in the senate, republicans can afford to agonize young people, people in

cities and most people of color. consumer businesses cannot. the republican party doesn't have to care what the majority of americans think. public facing corporations largely do. so michelle, a lot to wade through there. let's start with marco rubio's argument first. where is he coming from? is this prompted by georgia or roots much deeper than that? >> no, i think it's prompted by georgia. and other instances in which corporations have criticized right wing legislation. the offshoring part is a bit of a red herring, not because it's not important, but because you didn't see republicans really objecting it to for many, many years that it was going on. this sudden anti-corporate turn by marco rubio if it was about offshoring it would have happened a lot earlier. it's really about he gives three examples. he talks about woke progressive craziness of the three examples that he gives, two are companies

reacting to the voter right -- the voting restrictions in georgia. so he's not talking about esoteric language policing. he's not talking about human resources fads that some people object to. when he talks about wokeness, he's talking about voting rights. he is really, really angry that companies after all the deference they've been given by the republican party would intervene in political issues on the side of democrats. >> michelle, is there some implicit message that rubio is also sending to corporations that because they felt they had been so friendly in terms of policies that benefitted the corporations in terms of profits and tax structure and other things, regulations, that if you continue to support things like voting rights in georgia or funding things that are considered progressive that they

would find some kind of backlash in terms of regulations and other things that they -- corporations have enjoyed from the republicans in washington? >> i think he's trying to do that, but it's toothless because, look, this op-ed he doesn't talk about any regulations, any new taxes, any consequences at all that he would actually support the sides giving rhetorical backing to this union drive in alabama while opposing pro-union laws more broadly. if republicans really wanted to stick it to big corporations, even if just purely out of spite and revenge, they have a lot of opportunities. there's a bunch of things they could do. they could team up with democrats to raise the corporate tax rate. they could team up with three democratic senators, sherrod brown, mark warner and mike widen who have a bill that's very specifically sticking it to the globalizers that would raise taxes on overseas profits, that

would repeal tax breaks for oversea tax -- for overseas factories and would make it harder for companies to shield their money in tax savings. but senator widen says they have no republican support for this legislation. so republicans want to threaten big business. i guess with the exception of josh hawley is a shameful figure in a lot of ways but serious about anti-trust, these other republicans are in sort of a bind. on the one hand they're very angry about this rhetorical turn from big corporations but they're really not willing to do anything -- they're not willing to change their pro-corporate politics. that's why it's like donald trump. donald trump railed against corporations. he would occasionally try to take revenge on amazon, for example. but he ultimately lowered their taxes by an unbelievable amount

deregulated and gave them everything on their wish list. >> sam, i know you have a question for michelle. first, though, just wanted to double down on what she said. they're not going to raise corporate tax rates. they're not going to close corporate tax loopholes that allow the top corporations in america to pay 0 in income taxes to make sure that people who are at the bottom of the economic totem pole in their factories pay more in income taxes likely than say amazon or these other large corporations. they're not going to do that. and the corporations on the other hand, they're looking at their bottom line. remember when michael jordan got in trouble because somebody wanted him to get involved in a democratic political campaign and michael jordan said, republicans buy shoes, too. people who want to make money, they look at their market and by

the way, these ceos are not judged by who likes them at cocktail parties. they are judged by the bottom line. that is the reality. these decisions they're making, they're bottom lining it. what's best for our corporate brand. it may sound cold and cynical but i think conservatives and free marketeers and republicans would understand that the most. >> yeah, this is pure economics for the corporations. what michelle is getting at the hypocrisy standpoint is almost understated. for decades the republican argument around corporations was that you can donate money and political campaigns because money is speech. but now that corporations are speaking, they're saying speech is not speech and they're trying to punish them for that. and the one thing -- this was the question i was going to ask michelle, it's not a quibble with her point, i'm curious if you have seen this, you're

saying they aren't taking corrective action or there's no way they're punishing rubio did sport the amazon union drive which is a little bizarre because he's not a prounion. what i'm wondering may not be happening on the federal level, is it happening on the state level? by that i mean state lawmakers in georgia were trying to strip the tax incentives for delta in the state there. i don't think it advanced. but are there cases where on the state level you're seeing punitive actions against corporations that take on sort of a more left-leaning agenda that were not seeing on the federal level? >> no, i think trying is the keyword there, right? you have seen proposals in georgia and proposals in texas, but they've never gone through, right? so punitive legislation against actual voters, against people who would try to support voting rights, that's -- that passes easily. they make these threats but these threats never actually -- at least so far have never actually been enacted.

>> all right, michelle goldberg, thank you very much. >> sam stein, want to take a look at the polling that you're looking at this morning. >> sure. >> politico morning consult, and this is on president biden and how he's doing so far in a number of levels. first 100 days. >> yeah. we did a poll like outlets trying to measure support for the president 100 days in. we did it slightly different. we asked respondents to give him a grade, report card in essence. and the numbers are pretty interesting. 27% of respondents gave biden an a. 25% gave him a b. c you can see there 13%. what's interesting is the comparison between biden's first 100 days and trump's where as, you know, biden got an a from 27%. trump got an a from 16% of the population. b from 23% of the population and what struck me as the most interesting is democrats are much more supportive of what biden has done 100 days in than

republicans were about trump. biden has gotten an a or b from 85% of democrats so far. trump at this point has a or b from 72% of republicans, not a myth, but it's true there's this perception that trump had such a grip on his party, he does. i'm not going to deny it. but in this polling democrats are more supportive of their party's president this early on in the presidency than republicans were with trump, which gets to something we were talking about earlier, joe, there is a little slack there that republicans aren't always backing trump. they may when it comes to election day or horse race polls but they're not totally on board with trumpism. maybe that's the type of opportunity that someone can take advantage of within the republican party. >> i've been proven wrong with donald trump time and time again.

but i don't think he's interested in running in 2024. he's interested in raising a lot of money off of it, staying the middle. >> creating drama. >> creating drama. >> buildup. >> the most influential person in the party, but i find it hard to believe that at some point that doesn't wane. then again, that also depends on what does ron desantis do? what does mike pence do? nikki haley, everybody else. politico sam stein, thank you so much. >> thank you, sam. we appreciate it. >> good to have you on. just tus past the top of the hour right now and joining the conversation we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. >> this is good. this is important. >> former u.s. senator now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill is with us. and national political reporter for the new york times, elena plot along with reverend al sharpton who is still with us as well. good to have you all this hour. >> this is really, this is just an incredible panel because the

rev is talking about james brown. >> okay. >> i can talk about crimson tide football. >> sure. >> i can talk about boston red sox baseball. jonathan lemire, let's start there. garrett richards, what did i tell you? what did i say, this kid could be our next cy young winner. did i ever say that when he was like pitching -- >> i believe the -- >> horribly the last game? >> i believe the word you used was cofaxian to describe garrett richards' potential. yeah, that came out of nowhere last night. he's not exactly been their most stable or consistent starter. hey, ten strikeouts, seven innings and a win tonight as they go up against jacob degrom pitching as well as any pitcher we have seen in a decade or so. >> okay. >> let's get willie in quickly. >> oh, man. >> come on. >> one thing we can talk about is degrom. the mets -- >> willie.

>> on average usually give degrom 0.003 runs per outing. the guy is sitting -- probably 0-7 right now. he has a 0.36 e.r.a. he is extraordinary. but the mets, listen, degrom is on the mound, we're going to drink at 6 in the morning because we don't have to get a hit and they don't. >> they don't. it's not just degrom, the mets don't score any runs yet somehow find themselves in first place. he is as jonathan said and maybe mike barnicle would agree having one of the greatest seasons so far in the history of pitching in professional baseball. mike barnicle we have been texting around the t stas and they're staggering comparing them to pedro back in the late '90s. he is having a season and doesn't have a lot to show for it. >> yeah. you think of pedro martinez 1999, willie, to find a close matchup. and this is not just a close matchup, this is maybe degrom

being just a bit better right now so far this year than pedro was during that incredible year 1999. but i mean, the bottom line is joe just alluded to the reality of this, there's a stunning statistic i haven't been able to grasp it and keep it in my mind, the number of runs the mets have scored with degrom on the mound is appalling. he either was a no decision or lost the game while throwing practically a shutout. >> and elena, i don't know why we didn't talk about alabama basketball. alabama basketball. now we get football in the fall and basketball in the spring. pretty good. >> i just hope it stays that

way. i mean, it's just been so bad for so long that i'm convinced it was a fluke but i'm hopeful. year round fund in us the ka luca would be exciting. as it stands there's really nothing to do after january, i guess, because we usually win the national championship. >> claire mccaskill is here. she's a st. louis cardinals fan. let's move on. the cards are doing okay. the cards are doing okay. >> yeah. we're struggling with consistency and we're having some problems with our pitchers, but i got to give a shoutout to my other home state team, it is my number two team, those kansas city royals are tearing it up. they are right up there playing at a level with boston right now. so we may be back to having championship baseball on both sides of the state this year.

>> okay. so -- >> i guess since i'm an alabama fan, i got to give a shoutout to the team on the other -- i really don't. >> you really don't. but everyone you see on the screen right now, we're going to do something else tonight besides watching baseball. we're going to be watching president biden's address to a joint session of congress tonight. we'll be live on peacock by the way with analysis. >> can i ask the rev about james brown then? >> no. >> he needs to write a memoir -- when are you going to write a memoir about your time with james brown? >> i'm working on it. i'm working on it. i'm going to dedicate it to you the godson of tv. the god father of soul. >> you need -- why don't we do this, we can make this pitch, rev. we can do james brown five management tips or the god father of soul's key to success, five tips. you can take into the corporate

board room. i love this. >> oh my god. no. i'm just hoping the rev will join us on peacock to analyze the president's speech, his first 100 days. a key theme of the speech will be a government that works. one white house official said the address will be something of a victory lap on his administration's handling of the pandemic. vaccination campaign and the immediate action of the american rescue plan, including stimulus checks. it will also be a, quote, sober assessment of what we've been through and, a quote, clear-eyed assessment of the challenges we still face. the white house says racial justice will be another major theme. one official tells nbc news the president will make effuive push for the senate to take up the police reform bill that has already passed the house. senator tim scott, the lead republican negotiator on police reform, will deliver a gop

response. >> and you know, rev, we've seen actually some compromise between republicans and democrats on the hate crimes bill that passed 94-1 last week. >> 1. >> there is a possibility as tim scott is working with democrats there is a possibility of a bipartisan police reform bill. what can you tell us about what senator scott is doing and if we have a shot at a bipartisan bill there. >> i'm told by some very serious conversations i've had with senator cory booker and congresswoman karen basset that tim scott is moving toward to try to come with some bipartisan understanding on police reform. he's moved in many ways toward the middle where there was some objections initially to some of the things the civil rights

community wanted. and that there seems to be a real possibility here. we have seen since the chauvin verdict on george floyd even more police shootings which i think has motivated tim scott and others that we have got to come together and pass some police reform legislation. i mean, we have the andrew brown jr. shooting where yesterday an independent autopsy came out police shot him in the back of the head. i'm doing his funeral with others on monday. we cannot continue to see these weekly, if not twice a week, police shootings and not legislation at a federal level. and i think tim scott is the one that can deliver some republican votes. from what i'm understanding from cory booker and others the climate is there to really try to find a path towards getting something done. and president biden and vice president harris is really pushing hard on this and i think we must deliver. now is the time.

>> and beyond police reform, jonathan lemire, the president we get word now is going to be talking about another $1.8 trillion bill. this one when it comes to education. talk about this latest edition and again another almost $2 trillion bill. >> yeah. this is part 2, joe, of the infrastructure and jobs program. this one called the american families plan, which is much more of a focus, as you say, on things like education. it's going to be proposing free community college. it's going to be child care credits, day care credits. it's a swooping overhaul of the sort of day to day life of american families. far more so than the brick and mortar and broadband aspects of the first part of this bill which the president outlined a month or so ago. part of this as mika said at the

top white house officials are trying to put the idea out there, this is to show that government can do big things again after the faith in the institution itself was so shaken in the four years under president trump that now with the vaccine rollout being so successful, restoring some confidence in the government able to take on big projects, a moment here that is nothing short of a transformation as the role that government can play in everyday american's lives. it's a big number. they're not shying away from how big this proposal is. all told $4 trillion in terms of money that's being spent, raised on taxes, tax increases on the wealthiest americans and corporations. but they feel like this is a moment that requires big thinking and leaning into the comparisons of lbj and fdr and keep hearing those. more than that, they feel like this is a moment where some progressive promises can be kept and where they can really look

out for the less fortunate americans and those trying to make it and have struggled to make it to the middle class to this point. >> so elena, the former republican had a hard time putting the $2 trillion bill, saying the $2 trillion bill because we've had $4 trillion in covid relief over the past couple years, $2.3 trillion infrastructure plan, a $1.8 trillion education plan that the biden administration, the details they put out last night. the question i asked last hour is how do republicans find a center space there? how do we have bipartisan legislation when these numbers are so high? is there any opportunity for republicans and democrats to find middle ground let's say on the infrastructure bill? >> i think theoretically there would be, but i think what republicans are struggling with right now, joe, is that they really don't have an ideological

case for the american people against a plan like this. donald trump, of course, ran up the debt, you know, to quite historic levels during his tenure. what you're seeing right now as opposed to what you saw in the immediate aftermath of president barack obama's election is that republicans are still dealing with the kind of in-fighting and interparty skirmishing preventing them to making the case to the american people one way or the other why either opposing this plan wholesale or reaching a bipartisan agreement would be a good idea, which is to say that, you know, even in 2009 when the tea party sort of came on to the scene, you saw a much more seamless integration with the goals of that movement into republican leadership in a way that republicans right now just don't have. i think kevin mccarthy and liz cheney sort of fighting through the press over their recent retreat is pretty emblematic of

this. so it's almost as though the question of whether there can be bipartisan agreement to me is separate from can republicans at this point maintain any credibility with voters to say whether one is good over the other. >> claire, president biden had a lot to talk about from his first 100 days. not everybody likes it. nobody everybody has agreed with what he's done. he's done a bit. i'm curious what you think as a former united states senator how business is being done, the fact that the covid relief bill went through on reconciliation. if they do the big infrastructure, the $1.9 trillion they'll need reconciliation again. this $1.8 trillion they're talking about not liking to attract a lot of republican votes, many executive actions taken by president biden to get things done. he's doing a lot without a single republican on his side. >> yeah. you know, he has to have big things because they have to use reconciliation. they're realistic about the fact that there's only one thing the republican party is for right

now and that's to be against stuff they're doing. that's the only thing they've got. they're not going to throw away the only policy position they have which is being against everything on these big bills. here is the big danger the president has and one he has to really focus in on. all the stuff in these bills is very popular to the american people. because they're big, people aren't digesting parts of them. i just want to emphasize one part he'll talk about tonight which is child care. this child care provision will be the biggest advancement for women in this country since we got the right to vote. it is huge. child care now is a nightmare for women and families across this country. over half the child care centers are operating at a loss right now. they're not paying the workers enough. they can't find workers. it is a real crisis. the fact that he is addressing this i'm afraid will get lost in how big the whole thing is.

there's a lot of things to like in it, but if people don't have one thing they really understand and care about, i'm afraid it could go under the wheels of the bus on this is just too much government spending. >> yeah. amid on going debate about the future of the republican party, minority leader kevin mccarthy sidestepped a question yesterday about whether house gop conference chairwoman liz cheney should be in a leadership position. >> is cheney still a good fit do you believe? >> that's a question for the conference. >> what do you believe? what do you believe? >> i think from a perspective if you're sitting here at a retreat that's focussed on policy, focussed on the future of making america the next century and you're talking about something else, you're not being productive. >> what did he mean by that? mike barnicle, your thoughts on that? also what do you expect to hear from president biden tonight?

>> first of all, kevin mccarthy has nothing to say. they have nothing to put on the table in opposition to what will be presented tonight and what will be presented tonight will be historic if we take the time to think about what's going to happen tonight. it will harken back to 1964/'65 and lyndon johnson and harken back to 1933, 1934 and franklin dell nor roosevelt. child care workers in this country make maybe 10, 12 bucks an hour. that's it. child care will revolutionize the lives of families handcuffed to institutional poverty for decades. women and their husbands as well. it will -- it will transform the country if this package ever passed in total, which it probably won't, but it would transform this country. universal pre-k, childcare credits, parental leave for both

the husband and a wife. there are millions and millions of families in this country who look at the rest of us, who look at the culture around them with their nose to the window. we have access, we have influence, we have money. the institutional poverty in this country is horrific. and the idea that, you know, income inequality is just talked about and passed away and editorials are written but nothing really is done about it, it is killing people both middle class people and especially people who are chained to poverty. so tonight will be a critical and very important moment in joe biden's presidency. and it will be important for couple of reasons obviously because of the details of what he's going to propose but because he believes, truly believes that this is the way to change the country. these are people he knows. these are people he grew up with. this is what he wants to do. he's committed to doing it to getting it done and it will

change the country. >> to me fascinating speech to watch tonight. fascinating proposal to follow. and to see exactly what is possible, what is politics is the art of the possible. what can he pass not just through the house but what can he get joe manchin and kyrsten sinema to support as well when you start adding up all the money and the bill for all of these very, very aggressive programs that a lot of progressives have been fighting for for generation. before we go to break, i would love for you to talk about the republican conference for a second. i spoke with somebody close to kevin mccarthy yesterday who said, basically admitted that kevin mccarthy knows what he's doing. he told the truth when he was on the phone yelling at donald trump. he told the truth when he was on

the floor saying donald trump is responsible for 1/6 but he realized soon after that that he couldn't be speaker of the house without donald trump support. but liz cheney is saying what he believes. i just think it's fascinating we hear all of this talk to reporters, to conservative outlets about liz cheney and how she's not a good fit for the republican party and yet they took a private vote in caucus and liz cheney won comfortably. so, can you take us behind the scenes and talk about the dynamics of that republican caucus and what's going on? >> i think the keyword with regard to the liz cheney vote is private. i think you would actually see quite different numbers if it were a recorded vote. but i spoke to a republican chief of staff over the weekend who essentially told me kind of what has animated this conference since 2015 essentially is just waiting for

the problem of donald trump to go away. and never really taking it upon themselves to do something about it, but sort of just hoping that eer in sha, gravity, general physical forces will make him evaporate. and the feeling is right now they need him for successes in 2022 and that kind of their m.o. right now is to stay still and hope that no one cracks any egg shells before then, upsets him before then so can go from there. but i think texas is a great example of why that is actually not a great theory to bank on. texas republicans ran ahead of donald trump in 2020. they did terrific. and you know, allen west, the chairman of the party there and greg abbott are entirely at odds

with things which is to say that whether republicans are in power or whether they're in this place where they should just be unified in opposition to the biden administration, there are so many interparty divides that i think to just assume that by again the phrase i was told by this chief of staff was staying still until 2022 is not going to make the problem of trump and more importantly trumpism for this party go away. >> that's so funny because when you say -- the. >> image. >> the image of stay still, don't move. >> that's what they tell you do if you run into a bear in the woods. i don't think that works either. the bear ends up eating you either way. but yeah, donald trump, stay still. how has that worked for the past five years? they've lost the house. they've lost the senate. they've lost the white house. they've lost their political center. it's interesting. all right. thanks so much for being with us. >> thank you so much. we'll see you tonight as part of our coverage on peacock.

>> thanks so much. roll tide. >> roll tide. we're going to be covering president biden's address to congress and elena will join us on our coverage on peacock. we hope you will join us as well. >> just standstill. stay still and we'll -- >> we will not be still. >> we'll be on tonight. still ahead on "morning joe," our conversation with cia director and former secretary of defense, leon panetta. plus, congresswoman ilhan omar will be our guest. but first, white house principle press secretary karine jean-pierre is standing by and joins the conversation. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. finding new routes to reach your customers, and new ways for them to reach you... is what business is all about. it's what the united states postal service has always been about. so as your business changes, we're changing with it. with e-commerce that runs at the speed of now.

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it is 29 past the hour. in his speech to congress tonight, president biden is expected to lay out the details of his new $1.8 trillion

american family's plan. the proposal will focus on child care, lowering the cost of education, and extending tax cuts for lower and middle class americans. all of this while raising taxes on america's wealthiest residents. here to discuss what the white house is calling a once in a generation investment, white house principle deputy press secretary karine jean-pierre. great to see you. >> great to be back on the show. thank you so much. >> i'm thinking about the families especially impacted by the pandemic, how will what the president is putting on the table and announcing tonight, how will their lives be changed or impacted for the better? >> so, you know, mika, people have been asking us, you know, about the plan and if this is a republican plan or a democratic plan or what is it that we're trying to do. we always say, look f you see

there's a theme here. there's the american rescue plan. there's the american jobs plan. and now we have the american families plan. this is about american priorities, mika. this is about making sure that we have an economy that's growing for all. this is something that the president has talked about. he talked about it during the campaign with his build back better plan and this is what we want to make sure. we cannot have a growing economy if the middle class f the working class is not part of that growing economy. and this is what we're trying to do when we talk about the plan that he'll talk about today, the families plan, it's going to focus on our kids. it's going to focus on families. it's going to focus on child care and education as you are laying out, mika, which is critical for us to be competitive, for the labor force to continue and to grow. so this is all part of how do we deal with these two compounding crises that the president took on very early on which is the pandemic and the economy and

trying to make sure that we are not in the place that we were before the pandemic but we are going and building to a better place. >> good morning, karine, it's willie. good to see you again. >> good morning. >> obviously many of these plans are very popular. we've been through the polling on the covid relief package. infrastructure is new popular. this new $1.8 trillion proposal will be popular with families without question. but the numbers are numbing. 1.9 trillion, 2.225 trillion, 1.8 trillion, there are americans who go, i like a lot of this stuff, but my goodness, how are we paying for all this and what are the implications down the road. how does the president answer that question? >> look, willie, we're in an unprecedented time. the american rescue plan was to meet the moment that we were in with the pandemic. and we see that plan working now that it's in place. people have gotten to $1,400 checks that direct relief that folks needed. we see a vaccination program

that is successful, 200 million doses in arms. we see schools opening up, k through 8 majority of those schools are opened up safely which is critical and key. and so this is what we're trying to do, meeting the moment that we're in. look, the president wanted to be very clear. he wanted to make sure that the american jobs plan, the american families plan were paid for and not leaving that burden on everyday americans. so you think about the american families plan, you think about what the president is going to lay out. we're talking about that 1% of the wealth, of wealthy folks, doing their fair share. that is something the president has talked about, making sure that people are paying their fair share so that we have again an economy that is working for all. >> is it important to the president, karine, to have republicans on board for some of this. we know there were sort of back channel negotiations on going about infrastructure, maybe meeting somewhere the middle

there, went through reconciliation with the covid relief, is it important to get republicans on board? and if so, would he be willing to tick down that corporate tax hike down to say 25% to please some of them? >> well, you know, as you were saying, willie, the infrastructure plan, the american jobs plan is very popular. we know the american rescue plan was overwhelmingly popular as well. and so, it has bipartisan support across the board. and so the president wants to have bipartisan support in congress as well. we know that he has a record of being able to reach across the aisle and bringing people together. we received a counteroffer last friday on the infrastructure plan, the american jobs plan. we're going to continue having conversations. he will staff -- white house senior staff will continue to have those conversations with folks on both sides of the aisle. this is something that is incredibly important to the president, bringing people together, finding that common ground and doing this in good

faith. >> kareen, jonathan lemire is here with a question. john? >> hey, jonathan. >> good morning, karine, good to see you. >> good morning. >> there's a lot of long-time democratic priorities that are of course expected to be in the bill and the speech this evening, but one thing that one progressive item from the progressive wish list is allowing the government to negotiate prescription drug prices. can you explain why that's not there and what we'll hear from president biden on that subject this evening? >> i don't want to get ahead of the president. i will let him clearly go into detail on the american families plan. i can say that there is going to be investment in healthcare and he'll talk about that in more detail. so i'll let him talk more about where we are with the healthcare components of the plan. >> white house principle deputy press secretary karine jean-pierre, thank you very much for being on the show tonight.

we'll be watching the president and i. thank you. and president biden will meet with former president jimmy carter and former first lady rosalynn carter tomorrow for the first time in person since taking office. biden plans to visit the carter's resident in plains, georgia, part of his trip marking 100 days in office. the pair share a long history in politics. biden was a junior senator in 1976 when president carter was elected. and remained close since. the carters didn't attend biden's inauguration earlier this year due to the coronavirus but they have since been vaccinated. that will be a wonderful meeting. coming up, after several high profile police killings in her state, our next guest is introducing new legislation aimed at holding police accountable. democratic congresswoman ilhan omar joins awe head on "morning joe."

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♪♪ joining us now democratic congresswoman ilhan omar of minnesota. the congresswoman represents the district where both george floyd and daunte wright were killed by police and she is just introduced new legislation on police accountability which includes creating a national police misuse of force investigation board. so, welcome back to the show. let's talk specifically about your bill. how would this -- what would this board look like? how would it work? and how do you think it would address the problem of police accountability which appears to not exist right now? >> i really appreciate being with both of you. thank you for having me. the board would be an eight-person board that is

outside of law enforcement that is able to do independent investigations of police shootings, use of deadly force, and any sort of bodily injury that occurs while people are in custody of police. they will be appointed by the president and approved by the senate. and what we are hoping to do is sort of turn around the statistic that currently exists where 2% of police that were involved in fatal shootings were arrested since 2005. and majority of them were not being -- were not able to be held accountable. >> and i'm wondering, as moving forward during this incredibly difficult period especially in your district which has been really ground zero for what america has really learned about some of these police shootings

and what has happened in the moments leading up to them, but i'm wondering also if there's any effort to re-enforce really good policing. >> sure. i mean, but we have to really look at the current history of the criminal justice system and realize that it is not adequate enough to prosecute itself. we're realizing as we put together the george floyd justice in policing act, that it was necessary for there to be standardized police trainings for us to be able to ban certain practices, to make sure there was qualified immunity. there are a lot of guardrails that still need to be created in order for our justice system to work on behalf of everyone. >> reverend sharpton is with us and has a question for you, congresswoman.

rev? >> congress woman, a week ago today i was in your district with the wake of the wright killing and the family there. the next day you joined us at the funeral. and two days before that in your district was the conviction of a police officer for the murder of george floyd. do you get the sense that the people in washington in the senate and the congress understand how vital this issue is right now and how divided the country is really around the acts of policing? we have another funeral monday i'm doing the eulogy in north carolina. i'm asking you, do the people in washington understand the real state of emergency that many people of color see our communities in when it comes to policing? >> thank you reverend for that

question. you know, you and i both hope that the people in washington are aware as acutely as you and i are just how tragic, you know, these times have been for our communities and just the kind of brutality that people are experiencing in the hands of those who have taken an oath to protect and serve our communities when we think about public safety, it's about making sure everyone feels safe in their communities. and so, you know, although i don't feel quite comfortable saying that everybody understands the urgency of this moment, the urgency of getting it right on behalf of all americans in this country, we are going to continue to push them and have the necessary conversations so that we get them to the point where they say, yes, to these pieces of

legislation that we are hoping to push forward. >> congresswoman omar, it's willie geist. great to you on the show this morning. thank you for being here. as you know well, people hear your name in connection to policing, they think of defund the police movement, they think of your comments after the murder of george floyd where you said the minneapolis police department needs to be disbanded. you know that president biden, former president obama, jim clyburn, bernie sanders, the list goes on have dismissed the idea of defunding the police. let's just be clear about your vision for policing in america through this bill and broadly. what do you think a good minneapolis police department, for example, would look like? >> yeah. thank you actually for that question. you know, minneapolis right now is engaged in a rigorous process of trying to re-imagine what public safety looks like for all of us. we all realize that our police

department has not been an adequate police department where people have full faith in that police department. half of our homicides go unsolved. there are cases reported where rape kits have been destroyed. i remember witnessing my first police shooting as a teenager where minneapolis police put three dozen bullets into a mentally ill man the middle of the street in broad daylight. and so there's a lot of work that needs to go into. so what minneapolis right now is doing is that they're engaging the community. we have couple of charter amendments that are being proposed in november to try to think about what different departments need to be constituted for there to be law enforcement people who deal with

homicides, rapes, robberies and the such and where there are other resources for the kind of regular safety measures that the community needs. >> so not necessarily congresswoman disbanded, as you said last june, but re-imagined, is that the vision? >> well, re-imagining is the process that they are going through, but ultimately the minneapolis police department in that process would be dismantled and we will get in a process of reconstructing different law enforcement and safety departments for our city. >> congresswoman, i am struck by the block that the senate presents to a lot of the ideas around supporting the police and conflict resolution and policing the police. and ultimately i think you would even agree that if it were

possible this would be better done on the local level. could you pinpoint for us what has been the major problem of reforming police and police accountability at the local level as opposed to some kind of federal oversight which many times rolls into a community and doesn't understand what's at play in a community. the local folks know better usually. so, as you move towards a federalization of accountability of police, why can't we get this better done at the local level? what is the problem? >> yeah. that's a really good question. and there are, you know, local municipalities that someone will say have gotten it right. i know camdon is one that camden, new jersey, is one that people point to. obviously minneapolis is doing its part in trying to get this

right. but we have to realize that we've got 17,000 law enforcement police agencies across the country and we have seen the different disparities that exist in the way in which they are policing, the different trainings that they are getting. and if we don't figure out a federal way or a national way to standardize these trainings, to make sure certain practices are banned and to make sure that, you know, regardless of what neighborhood you live in, who your city council members and your mayors might be, that you have a certain standard that you can expect from those who are taking an oath to protect and serve your community. >> so, congresswoman, i'm glad that claire brought up local

community and minneapolis/st. paul because you know five years ago, six years ago i don't think any of us would have expected this coming out of minnesota. and yet we saw tragedy of the shooting and at least from my memories it looked like a police officer panicked and then we had the tragedy of george floyd, not a whole lot of panic there with chauvin and then you saw what happened the tragedy of daunte wright, again, a 24, 25-year veteran of the force, again, appearing to panic. police officers, police commissioners i spoke with were shocked at the training. so, i guess my question, what is it with the minneapolis-st. paul area that you all have been at the forefront, unfortunately, of

these tragedies over the past four, five years. >> well, i don't know if these tragedies are uniquely minnesotan but what is unique about minnesota is that we are people who don't let up until we get accountability so our loud voices are what you're hearing and your demands for justice is what is propelling our cases to the national stage. we see it happen in houston, in los angeles. we see it in chicago and other places and i don't want to speak ill of the population there, but minnesota, you know, especially minneapolis and st. paul has a unique population that understands, you know, as citizens we have, you know, certain rights. our voice matters and it's really important for us to engage those who we elect to be

responsible in crafting legislation to protect all of us and that we, you know, are actively engaged in our communities for the betterment of it. >> i guess a better way for me to ask the question that was a little broad and ambiguous and certainly nobody would think this was specific, the problem was specific to minneapolis st. paul. a better way to ask that question is, is there a problem with training in minneapolis-st. paul? is there a problem with the police departments in that area more so than say other parts of the country? >> oh, i mean, i think -- i'm not sure. i haven't seen any studies being done on whether, you know, minneapolis police officers get less training or their training is somehow inadequate. but what i do know one of the

reasons we have been having a conversation about the need for the minneapolis department to be dismantled and for us to figure out a way to start over is because our police department has been having lots of problems, lots of mismanagement, you know, the refusal to sort of adopt regular reform measures that have been proposed over the years. and i think this conversation that the community is having is a really important one as we look forward to a future where i am no longer on tv talking about, you know, those who protect and serve not being able to protect and serve. >> mike barnicle is with us and has a question for you, congresswoman. mike. >> congresswoman omar, your proposal as i listen to you calls for eight person appointed

by the president of the united states and yet in the tragic circumstances in minneapolis, the fbi field office played a pivotal role and the justice, the department of justice under a new attorney general is playing an active role in police procedures in city after city. would your proposal, would your board have precedence over the local fbi field offices and the department of justice and investigating police procedual crimes? >> what the hope is is that when we think about what the fbi is doing or doj, it's through an invitation. oftentimes it is cases that, you know, garner national attention that brings them in. it is the demands from the public that is asking for them

to come in and to look at a case. what this board would do is that they would proactively engage in these investigations every time these shootings take place or, you know, bodily harm is caused and there is a misuse of power. >> congresswoman ilhan omar, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we really appreciate it. coming up, our conversation with former defense secretary and cia director leon panetta. >> we ask him about afghanistan and getting the troops out of afghanistan and what impact that will have on america's national security. >> and about the coronavirus pandemic's impact on national security and america's standing in the world. we'll be right back.'l l be righ.

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>> the oath that i took to the

constitution compelled me to vote for impeachment and it doesn't bend to partisanship and it doesn't bend to political pressure. >> if donald trump was the 2024 nominee, would you support him? >> i would not. >> okay. liz cheney, very good catching up with you. >> pause there. like i'm not sure what to do with that. liz cheney staying the course when it comes to her defense of the u.s. constitution. it's easy for her. let's see if every republican can do that. >> trump and i, we had a hell of a journey. i hate it being this way. oh, my god, i hate it. from my point of view, he has been a, but today first thing you'll see is all i can say is count me out. enough is enough. >> i'm doing a golf tournament where president trump, this

sunday, may 2nd and my campaign is going to auction a slot off to play in this tournament. you have lunch, you have breakfast with president trump, you get a photo, you play at his golf course in florida and it's going to be a lot of fun. >> a tale, willie, of two characters. they had the strongest of convictions. they had the weakest of convictions. >> unfortunately, a lot more lindsey grahams than there are liz cheney's. in fact, two or three liz cheney in this case who said what they said on january 6th was, yeah, this was a bad day that you can't incite a riot and bring people to the capitol in an insurrection and have stayed to that which doesn't seem as hard of a position to hold. we remember kevin mccarthy went

mara largo. >> he said what he said and then he went to reagan national and three people and a puppy dog were barking at him and it freaked him out and everything changed after that. >> yeah. actually, everything changed on january 6th and if you've been at the capitol, as we were both yesterday, it's desolate and the capitol police are heroes and they've been through a lot and it's sad. and it's unbelievable how completely transformed the place is. it's quiet. it's empty. it's supposed to be the people's house. just a few people working there and it is tragic. it is tragic what has happened. >> it is really something. i will tell you, willie, the one thing that we did see when we walked past all the capitol hill police officers and, yes, not everybody we've talked about it,

not capitol police officer acted the way the capitol hill police wanted them to act and they had those investigations and they've handled those situations. but the overwhelming number are extraordinarily loyal to the bench and to their duty and to their country and you just can't help but thanking each one of them for their service as you see them up there on the hill. >> absolutely. >> and what they've done and what they know they still have to do because there are still enemies among us. there are still people who are talking actively about causing more chaos. >> they are protecting them, as they do their job. >> they have a big security event tonight. remember they lost another officer a few weeks ago on the other side of the capitol who was rammed. they had a very difficult few months. one of the officers, actually, was on cnn last night with don lemon and gave an extraordinary

interview where he recounted what happened to him that day. he was the officer on the front steps who was beaten with a flag pole. he had several strokes and he has four children and began to ask himself what would happen to his children without their father. he can't believe when he turns on the tv and watches some of the politicians like the ones we just saw whitewashing what happened on january 6th because he was there and he knows what happened. >> and you take ron johnson -- >> we're going to show that in just a little bit. >> telling americans that there was no risk that day. he never felt threatened that day. again, like you said, trying to whitewash the fact that ron johnson works with seditionists. people who actively encouraged people to come up to the hill and what did rudy giuliani call it? combat justice. and don jr. saying we're coming after you.

we're coming up there and we're going to love it. we're going to enjoy it and donald trump encouraging all of this. by the way, why are we still talking about this near the end of april? we're still talking about this near the end of april because people like ron johnson who are whitewashing it and people like lindsey graham who are wanting us to forget not only what happened on january the 6th but also that he properly blamed donald trump for what happened on january the 6th, just like kevin mccarthy blamed donald trump on january 6th in a very heated phone call. and then on the house floor later saying that it was donald trump's fault. so, you know, the truth is inconvenient for some of these people who still want to hang out and we're not going to

forget it. americans shouldn't forget it and shouldn't forgive. >> as you were describing, willie, here is the d.c. metropolitan police officer recounting his traumatic experience being brutally attacked by a rioter on january 6th. and blasted the quote, whitewashed rhetoric that followed the violence. take a listen. >> it's been very difficult seeing elected officials and other officials kind of whitewash the events of that day or downplay what happened. some of the terminology that was used like hugs and kisses and, you know, very fine people. very different from what i experienced and what my co-workers experienced. i experienced a group of

individuals that were trying to kill me to accomplish, you know, their goal. sorry, don. man, i didn't think i would get this emotional. yeah, i mean, i experienced the most brutal, savage hand-to-hand combat in my entire life, and my policing career that spans two decades. >> that was officer michael fanone. can you imagine. >> again these terrorists that

donald trump, beat officers and beat them within an inch of their life and it's just staggering to me that you actually have people in the media on the right trying -- >> are we debating this? >> trying to downplay this and trying to downplay, you know, the officer sicknick died of a stroke or had several strokes the next day. and you look at what all of the officers went through that were beaten by donald trump supporters and it is sickening that lindsey graham, it is that kevin mccarthy, it is sickening that a lot of these people are supporting the terrorists, the rioters, the seditionists and resurrectionists who are trying to overthrow the united states

constitution and stop the constitutional counting of votes. >> yeah, it's unforgivable, isn't it? when you look back and think about what led up to that day and the lies that were told for a couple months leading up to that day that it was a stolen election and these people had to stop the steal. they were driven there largely by the president of the united states but by others and on that day by senators like ted cruz and josh holly and i would just ask, do you stand with police? do you stand with officer fanone who was lying on the ground in there somewhere being beaten with an american flag yelling i have kids, i have kids so they wouldn't kill him. do you stand with officer fanone. listen to him, listen to his interview with don lemon last night and think about what happened on that day and confront what led up to that day. and there are a lot of republicans on capitol hill who know exactly what happened on that day, who were scared on that day who still won't tell the truth about what happened. >> there are, of course, some

republicans who will tell the truth and who have told the truth. and kevin mccarthy and lindsey graham, they're sort of in both camps. they told the truth early and then decided that they might face some political ramifications for showing character and speaking out against this insurrection and the people who inspired it. but that was then and this is now and now lindsey graham wants you to know that there's a really cool golf package that you can be a part of if you spend enough money and hang out with a guy who was responsible for this insurrection and the brutalization brutalization' it sounds for patriots, people who love america, there are a lot better things they can do. coming up, cia director leon panetta oversaw the operation

that took out osama bin laden. he weighs in on the president's decision to withdraw from afghanistan. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." is what business is all about. it's what the united states postal service has always been about. so as your business changes, we're changing with it. with e-commerce that runs at the speed of now. next day and two-day shipping nationwide. same day shipping across town. returns right from the doorstep, and deliveries seven days a week. it's a whole new world out there. let's not keep it waiting. ♪ (ac/dc: back in black) ♪ ♪ ♪ it's a whole new world out there. the bowls are back. applebee's irresist-a-bowls all just $8.99. ♪♪ oooh, that's a low price.

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welcome back to "morning joe." let's bring into the conversation the host of msnbc politics nation and president of the national action network reverend al sharpton and the "new york times" washington bureau chief. we are learning new details about president biden's address to a joint session of congress tonight. a key theme will be a government that works. one white house official said the address will be something of a victory lap on his administration's handling of the pandemic, vaccination campaign and the immediate impact of the american rescue plan, including the stimulus checks. it will also be a, quote, sober assessment of what we've been

through and a, quote, clear eyed assessment of the challenges we still face. the white house says racial justice will be another major theme. one official tells nbc news the president will make a push for the senate to take up the police reform bill that has already passed the house. senator tim scott, the lead republican negotiator on police reform will deliver the gop response. there will be no guests in the gallery, so it will sound very different, as well. lawmakers will be seated there to allow for social distancing. house minority whip steve scaliese said many freshman members and 60 senators will attend and 30 from each party. prior to his remarks, white house press secretary jen psaki said the president will meet with staffers who were inside the capitol on the january 6th

attack. he will take his message on the road with a trip to georgia and visit philadelphia where he will mark the 50th anniversary of amtrak. >> of course he will. also tonight in the address will formally announce his american's family plan that explains health care and education assistance. the president reportedly will ask congress to pay for the entirety of the $1.8 trillion in new spending by increasing taxes on the wealthy, including increasing the top marginal tax rate and nearly doubling the capital gains rate. the administration plans to use revenue from some of the corporate tax increases he announced last month. so, rev, $1.8 trillion a new package in addition to the $1.9 trillion we had for the covid relief, $2.29 trillion for infrastructure and this is really about education and

fighting poverty and extends education and pre-k makes that national and pays for two years of free community college. extends frankly our education system from k through 12 and pre-k into college among other things. what do you make of the plan and what you might hear from the president tonight? >> the plan is necessary because you must remember we're dealing with this in light of a nation that has been virtually in lockdown for over a year. and many of our youngsters or students out for a year, those that are in areas with broadband deserts that couldn't even do education online. we need this investment to not only bring us to an even playing field, but to play catch up for those that were already behind before the pandemic now handicapped even further. i think when you look at the context in which the president is making this address and reaching out and making this

request, you must say that the president is right on point here. so, i'm anxious to see how he lays it out. i'm anxious to see what his emphasis is on racial justice and policing. i think that you've got to deal with the time in which we're in and the forecast for this speech tonight says the president is going to address the times, not duck the times. >> elizabeth, the numbers really are staggering. we're just throwing around trillions and trillions using that term very casually at this point. this new plan, the proposal tonight about education does call for another tax increase. we already know that the plan we're in the middle of discussing right now on infrastructure is being held by republicans because of a proposed tax increase. what are the prospects for getting all this legislation through the congress? well, i think they're going to get republican votes for it. if you add up the three different packages of

infrastructure, human infrastructure and stimulus, it's $6 trillion. that's extraordinarily. and the president is proposing to pay for this by increasing taxes on the rich, raising the top marginal rate 39%. he's also proposing to give $80 billion to the irs to correct. so, if you make more than $400,000 a year, you have a much better chance that this passes of getting audited. so, and they're arguing that they can generate $1 trillion in extra money from, you know, getting people to pay their fair share of taxes. i don't think they're going to get any republican votes. this is going to be done through the process of reconciliation and only pass with democratic votes, including interestingly enough a lot in the infrastructure plan, traditional infrastructure plan that republicans like. bridges, roads, tunnels and, you

know, it looks like some republicans will vote for big infrastructure plans in their own districts and, you know, but there's just no -- given these tax increases, i don't think there's any prospect of getting republican vote. coming up cindy mccain joins the discussion. reflects the state of politics today and the battle to weed out disinformation from the national conversation. "morning joe" is coming right back. let me tell you something, i wouldn't be here if i thought reverse mortgages took advantage of any american senior, or worse, that it was some way to take your home. learn how homeowners are strategically using a reverse mortgage loan

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but is it secure? sure it's secure. and even if the power goes down, your connection doesn't. so how do i do this? you don't do this. we do this, together. bounce forward, with comcast business. welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now former defense secretary and cia director leonpanetta and also former u.s. ambassador to sweden under president obama mark brzezinski and dean of the john hopkins school of advance international studies elliot cohen. today secretary panetta and dean cohen will take part in this zbigniew brzezinski initiative. the u.s. in a post-pandemic world. part of the dean speaker series and we really look forward to it.

thank you, all, for being with us this morning. >> thanks so much for being with us. and you said dr. brzezinski's name so well. secretary panetta, thank you for being with us. early on in this pandemic richard had said that he didn't expect the pandemic to change history, but he did expect it to accelerate a lot of trends. we have seen that happening over the past year. what are the implications for u.s. power? >> well, because i think the united states is trying to get back to the table as a world leader, the real question is whether or not we can restore the relationships with our allies in the world. that's critical to our national security to be able to build and strengthen those alliances. i think all of those alliances have been impacted by covid. and it's an indication that if alliances are going to work in the future, they've got to focus not just on national security,

but they've got to focus on pandemics, they have to focus on climate change and they have to focus on other issues that are impacting the world we live in. >> mr. secretary, we're only 100 days in. it's certainly too early to cast judgment on any administration 100 days in, but i am curious what your thought is on joe biden and tony blinken and the administration rebuilding some of those bridges to our nato allies. how have they done so far? >> well, i think they deserve high points for trying to get the united states back in the business of trying to provide leadership in the world. look, we spent four years basically in a process of withdrawing from world leadership into an america first isolationism. and we paid a price for that. it's not going to be easy. i think we lost a lot of trust in the world as a result of what happened. but, if president biden is able

to engage, to go to europe, to go and visit with our allies, to be able to define what the united states policy will be and working with these countries in the future, then i think there's a good chance he can help restore that trust that we're going to need in confronting china, in confronting russia and confronting the other dangerous threats that exist in the wor . the only key in the united states for the future is to build strong alliances. >> secretary panetta, when you took the job as secretary of defense, we were about ten years into the war in afghanistan. now, as we approach the 20th anniversary of september 11th, president biden has pledged to bring home american troops from there. what do you make of that it scission and some of the criticism from people like general petraeus who say we do at least keep a small force there for the foreseeable future. >> well, look, there's no question that president biden's probably taken one of the

biggest gambles with regards to foreign policy up to this point by withdrawing our forces there. we all understand the reasons for it. the frustration. but while you can withdraw our forces i cannot believe the united states can withdraw from its responsibility to make sure that afghanistan never again becomes a safe haven for terrorists. that's why we went to war. that's why we conducted the mission to go after bin laden because we were trying to protect this country from another 9/11 attack. and i think it's very important for the united states to continue diplomacy, continue aid and, frankly, continue counterterrorism operations even if it's from outside the country in order to make sure that the taliban doesn't take control of afghanistan. >> dean elliot cohen. let's talk about what dr. brzezinski would be concerned

about as he looks globally and i want to talk, if you could touch briefly on turkey, that was a country that in 2009, 2010 dr. brzezinski had great hopes for and he saw over the proceeding years things have only gotten worse there. what is america's best approach to turkey and the region in a post-pandemic world? >> it's a lot of questions. thanks for having me. >> pick your favorite. dean, this is multi-question -- you just pick the one you want to answer. >> i think, first thing, in terms of how thought about one thing that was so smart about him is that he could reconcile and combine thinking both about geopolitics and very hard headed calculations. with a concern for american

values and ideas. those are the horns of the dilemma and foreign policy and i think he would be wrestling with this previous administration didn't care about human rights. the biden administration does. they'll be forced to do some very difficult tradeoffs as they do it. the second thing about as big as a foreign policy thinker the way in which he understood the impact of technology on the conduct of global affairs. and i think he will be looking at the world, i'm sure he would be thinking about climate change. and thinking a lot about, you know, what are the implications of artificial intelligence, for example, 3d manufacturing and a whole host of things or the kind of technologies that we're seeing enrolled in support of vaccination. so he would be, if i was fortunate enough to take part of his seminars, i think he would

be quite wide ranging. in regard to turkey, i think he was prepared to be disappointed occasionally. at this point the fact of the matter not likely to have a particularly good relationship with the government in turkey. questions how you manage it, but not transform it. >> ambassador mark brzezinski, let's talk china. obviously, extraordinarily important chapter of your father's public service and, of course, 1979 your first state dinner was held at your mcclain farmhouse despite mika's best efforts to destroy things. >> always bring this up. >> things did go well. it is a very complicated, complex relationship. there's much to be concerned about with china. but at the same time, we're sharing the global stage with them over the next 50 years whether our politicians like it or not. what's the best approach forward there?

>> joe, you're right. mika, did spill some of the food we were serving but the relationship normalized and carried forward for almost 40 years. first, all the brzezinskis and the brzezinski family are so honored that secretary panetta is doing the brzezinski lecture at john hopkins university. we are grateful for his service and my late father admired him tremendously. it is a huge honor. my father's big brzezinski distinguished between military credibility and political credibility. that goes to the heart of what secretary panetta is talking about in his lecture when he talks about the subtle dimensions of national power. that was the essence of what president carter and ping brokered 40 years ago in normalizing the relationship with china. using american innovation and

science and technology to draw the chinese into our fight against the soviets. and so in terms of the cold war at the time and outmaneuvering the soviet, that was a key step. but a key piece to getting that done was a agreeing to disagree. there were many things the u.s. and chinese disagreed on. taiwan, the vietnam/cambodia conflict and they agreed to disagree on things while agreeing to cooperate on other things and president carter deployed the subtle dimensions of national power, as secretary panetta put it and invoked our innovative potential and geographic base and in certain ways even our democratic appeal around the world to draw the chinese into our problems. and when it comes to our problems today whether it's the fight against covid or the fight

against climate change, the fact is, joe, we need each other. the americans and the chinese have to work together to get things done. >> secretary panetta, as mark was talking about agreeing to disagree but still working together, i actually was reminded of a conversation i had with john kasich on the house floor. he had been in some really difficult budget negotiations with you when you were working at the clinton administration and those were at the time many people considered the battle days with newt gingrich and us right wing freshman republicans fighting bill clinton and hillary clinton and yet i was able to still talk to democrats every day, most of my best friends were democrats. and i remember john kasich, you know, he had nothing but good things to say about you even when the negotiations were brutal. so i ask you, compare that time

with what's going on now and how much of a threat is it to a functioning foreign policy to have the sort of discord that we have on capitol hill. >> you know, joe, i often said i have seen washington at its best and washington at its worst. the good news is i've seen washington work and those days with john kasich and with other republicans, those were good days because while we had our differences, we were able to work together to try to resolve some of the key issues facing our country particularly on the budget. today as we all know, washington is dysfunctional. and if you have these partisan divisions, if you have this polarization, if you have the inability of people to come together, even though they may

disagree, but fail to listen to one another, fail to work together to try to find solutions, then our democracy pays a price for it. and we lose the trust of the american people in our system of governing. so, it is very critical, very critical that ultimately we have to get back to governing. it is about governing after all. not about fighting each other and not about politics, it is about governing the nation. and in order to govern, you have to sit down and work together in order to get that done. >> 100%. mr. secretary leon panetta, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much. mark brzezinski, dean eliot cohen, thank you all. the webinar, the u.s. in a post-pandemic world is today at 5:00 p.m. registration is free and open to the public. >> can't wait. that is going to be fantastic. >> it is going to be incredible.

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>> five days after the surgery, lab results confirmed he had gleoblastoma. the brain cancer that took his life. >> what did they tell you about the prognosis? >> it's very serious. the prognosis is very, very serious. some say 3%, some say 14%, you know, it's a very poor prognosis. so, i just said, i understand now we're going to do what we can, get the best doctors we can find and do the best we can. and at the same time celebrate

with gratitude a life well lived. >> was he that tough? >> yes, he is that tough. >> joining us now is the late senator john mccain's widow cindy mccain. she chairs the board of the mccain institute for international leadership and is the author of the new book "stronger, courage, hope and humor in my life with john mccain." good to have you on the show. >> cindy, thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> let's start by talking about why you wrote the book and why you thought it was important for people to read about your journey. >> well, it was a journey and it was a wonderful journey in many ways and some pitfalls along the way and by writing the book, number one, cathartic for me and, number two, i hope other people would see what i've been through and what i've done and

kind of how i have come out the other side and hopefully be helpful to other people, especially when we talk about drug abuse and those kinds of things. i hope that i can be an inspiration to some people. >> well, talk about that. because, you know, it used to be that if you talked about, families talked about addiction or if you talked about mental health challenges it was tabu, people were quiet and now every family including my own, my friends have had all of those challenges and we all know people who have had those challenges. how important is it for you to get that word out and how people get through it that are watching right now. >> well, it's very important. i was, when this all happened to me, it was during the era where you didn't talk about this. you hid it. you were ashamed. if you went to go get help, you were ostracized for that. so, things have changed and also

the physicians have changed. no longer do they hand out hundreds of pills if you have a headache kind of thing. so, it's been all about people understanding what this is. it's a disease, not a defect. and it's also something that the media, i believe, now is starting to agree with and understand and talk about. and that's important because i was viliied for what happened to me. i was vilified for every in every which way you can imagine and all that does is drive you back under ground and make you, number one, not go out in public any more. and number two, feeling of hopelessness and that should never happen. so, i know nowadays that especially the media is beginning not to just beat up on people who have these kinds of issues and instead talk about it. >> so, why don't you tell. for somebody who is watching right now that is going through

this and being vilified by their family or their friends or by loved ones who should be the ones embracing them. how did you get through it and what should they do today to take the step forward for help? >> well, fortunately, my parents came to me. i had, you know, it's an enemy the drug abuse and i had hidden it from john and it was my parents that came to me and said, there is something wrong with you. they didn't know what it was. and if they hadn't, i think i might possibly could have died from it. they, instead, said you're going to get help and immediately tell your husband and he will understand and all those kinds of things and that is indeed what happened. i lived in fear of letting my husband down which is what this book is about. pressure on women to do everything and be perfect and the realization that you are imperfect and you can't do everything and that you can just do what you can do and be the best you can is really what it's

all about. >> and you, i know you also write about john's humor during his illness. i'd love to hear more about that. we were lucky enough to see his humor in real life over the years and enjoyed time with him. he has some zingers and dark, funny humor. but how did that help and what was it like? >> well, it was very helpful because humor is a large part of living and, you know, it's a large part of life, it should be anyway. in his case he, you know, there were some very humorous times. he made sure his humor was helping to uplift the rest of us who were sitting there having to watch this whole thing unfold in front of our eyes and watch the person that we loved so deeply drift away from us. so, humor was a large part of it and, believe me, i talk about an

incident in the book, the dust buster incident on the airplane regarding post surgical stuff. he was really, as you know, had a very sharp sense of humor and used it quite often during his illness. >> yeah, you talk about him saying i packed a dust buster in case my brain explodes. >> my brain explodes, yeah. >> that's the humor you're talking about. congratulations on the book, cindy. it's good to see you. one of the defining moments of this political era was in july of 2015 when then candidate donald trump took a shot at your husband, senator mccain and said i like people who weren't captured talking about his story record as a war hero. i think a lot of people in the moment thought, that is the end of that campaign. you don't go out and criticize a war hero and you certainly don't go out and criticize the service of someone like john mccain. what was that like inside your home for you and for senator

mccain himself to hear that comment first but then to watch president trump's support rise after that. >> again john used humor and he was, he took it in stride. i mean, he was more concerned for his fellow pows than he was for himself. as for myself, i don't like words like that but you know something, it was a minor part of our life. it was very small and it was very small part of my book. and in the long run, i know my husband's a hero, i know this country knows my husband's a hero and he, you know, his legacy is in his heroism and his acts of courage that he performed time and time again. >> that's right. that's never been in doubt. you were centured for supporting joe biden for president and in the book you write about the choice to support joe biden and the state of the republican party you write this, quote, my republican roots run deep and i haven't given up on the party. i hope it regenerate itself and

swing away from the disgrace it has become. republicans in arizona and else where deserve better. the party fell in thrall, i prefer the gold standard of politics that i learned from john and or lose you do it honorably. i am glad that when i travel internationally now i can once again be proud of our president. i take it it wasn't a difficult decision for you to endorse joe biden, senator mccain's former friend. >> no. it really wasn't. like everyone, i viewed the morass that was occurring around us within the republican party as something that was going to take us down, and so i felt, i can either sit at home and yell at the television set every day or get out and do something, and that's what i felt i could do. i only had my voice, and i think it worked. he won, which is wonderful, and now we have back in the white house and within our leaders

courage and empathy and the spirit of trying to cooperate. i know your last guests were talking about that, the act of civility and things like that which are most important in politics, so it's nice to see that back, and nice to see an attempt at government trying to run in a better fashion than it was before. >> cindy, i've been watching ken burns' documentary on earnest hemingway. just a huge man, and a very big man that did great things also had flaws. many would say that about john mccain. the thing i loved about him was with me several times and with a lot of other people, he can get angry as hell at you, but you know what? he always came back and he always talked and he always worried about what was just over the hill and i remember the last time i saw him, he seemed to be

the only republican on capitol hill who still had his head about him, about after donald trump was president and even lindsey had sort of started wandering off. >> yeah. >> i thought it was remarkable that after all of the battles he had been through, all of the ups and downs when his country and his party called on him to do the right thing, he was one of the few people that kept his head and remembered the values that got him into public service. >> yes. yeah. you know because he talked about it. he lived by the code of conduct. that was who he was as a person and as a leader, i believe and more importantly -- it was never personal with john. it was always about the issues. >> right. >> so whatever anger would develop or whatever would come about it was always about the issues and never about the person on the other side of the issue and that's the difference,

and i don't think -- i don't think we see a whole lot of that rid now. i'm hoping that we'll see more of it. >> well, to be honest, cindy, we really miss him. >> yeah. >> we really miss him. >> me, too. >> i wonder -- finding joy and strength in writing this book is one thing, and what about being grandmother to grand baby liberty. she's beautiful and looks like you. >> she does. it's uncanny. it really is. it's nice. i have liberty and two other grandsons and another grandson on the way. it's such a nice part -- you know, life goes on and our first grandson was born almost to the day that john died, so it's -- >> wow. >> as you know, life goes on and you live in a new norm which is new normal for me and that's exactly what's going on, and this book has been very -- as i

said, cathartic and it's also been a realization for me to go inside and look at myself and that's been very helpful. >> thank you for sharing with us. the new book is "stronger," courage, hope and humor in my life with life mccain. >> cindy mccain, thank you very much. >> thank you, cindy. >> thank you. still ahead, a reminder of where we were a year ago in the pandemic. "morning joe" is coming right back. joe" is coming right back every emergen-c gives you a potent blend of nutrients so you can emerge your best with emergen-c. i'm ordering some burritos! oh, nice. burritos?! get a freshly made footlong from subway® instead. with crisp veggies on freshly baked bread. just order in the app! ditch the burgers! choose better, be better. subway®. eat fresh.

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this week in covid history. as we end april 2020, americans are doing dandy. >> an effort is under way to make hand sanitizers taste worse so that children and adults won't drink it. >> okay. maybe not dandy. speaking of drinking disinfectant, say hello to president trump. >> hello, everybody. >> he's full of pep and the buck stops elsewhere. >> we inherited a very broken test, a broken system and a broken test. >> i can tell you that nancy pelosi was dancing in the streets in chinatown. >> this is no problem. this is late in february. this is no problem. it's going to blow over. >> it could have been stopped, but people chose not to stop it. >> talk about a blame duck

president. >> visits sick patients in the hospital, but why isn't he wearing a mask. >> that's a great question. i'm glad you're asking me. it was after the mayo clinic that he found out they had a policy about wearing a mask. >> i think by june a lot of the country it will be back to normal and by july the country is really rocking again. >> he is ready for white boy summer. >> murder hornets. >> giant murder hornets are here in the u.s. >> for heaven's sake. that has been this week in covid history. >> oh, my -- willie. willie. >> what's wrong with all of those people? >> the hand sanitizer that people wouldn't drink it. >> thank god, i was washing down my hamburgers with that, but those murder hornets have

changed the entire year, willie. you look back at this year. the year of the murder hornet. how did we ever get through it. >> there was a lot of hype about the murder hornet and they didn't turn out to be as big a problem, but the cicadas are about to descent on washington. >> we will see you on peacock where we will be covering president biden's first address to biden. >> where we will talk about becoming murder hornets. >> at 8:00 p.m. eastern on peacock. we'll see you all there. it will be so fun. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle live in washington, d.c., our nation's capital. it is april 28th, let's get smarter. president biden will address congress and a speech that will be historic in both substance and setting. it comes on his 99th day in office and will lay out a