♪♪ good day. this is "andrea mitchell reports" in washington where president biden is doubling down on his defense of big government solutions to america's problems. in an exclusive new interview on "today" show with craig melvin, he defended spending trillions of dollars in new federal investment to keep the nation competitive and get people back to work. >> democrats and republicans for generations have been, shall we say, skeptical about the ability of big government to do big things. what makes you so confident that skepticism has changed? >> well, first of all, the facts don't reflect that. i don't have any inordinate faith in government. but there are certain things on the government can do. we rank eighth in the world in terms of infrastructure, for god's sake. is the private sector going to

build billions of dollars of highways, ports, bridges, airports? are they going to do that? so, these are things that only government can really do. >> this hour, the president will be going to one of his favorite places, philadelphia's iconic 30th street station to promote his favorite mode of transportation, amtrak. joining me not nbc news co-host kristen welker, a philly girl, garrett haake. and kristin, first you, and craig preferring the president on the $6 trillion, do we really need it. he had a direct response. here it is. >> that's the reason why it's recovery, because we're investing, look how rapidly we've recovered since we passed the last piece of legislation. and that legislation was $1.9 trillion. if we don't invest in this country, we're going to actually

start to -- we're going to fall behind even further. >> kristin, he's absolutely going strong on this. and despite republican complaints about the spending he believes that this is popular and this is going to get him across the finish line. he's got a hard road, though, in an evenly divided congress. >> it is going to be a tough sales job, there's no doubt about that. what you saw with that exclusive interview with craig melvin was president biden doubling down on this proposal to go big. and he is, essentially, making a bet that americans want the government to be more involved in their lives. that they now want big government coming on the heels, of course, of the covid crisis. and the economic crisis. you heard him talk about the recovery. he sees this as critical to continuing the recovery. but also looking toward the future, the president's making the case that this is critical to be competitive with china.

and on the world stage, andrea. so there's really a much broader argument that he is trying to make. the question is how do they get it done. and of course, garrett is going to have all of the back and forth on capitol hill. but i can tell you based on my conversations at the white house, andrea, privately, administration officials acknowledged it may be difficult to get all of this done at once. it's a very different than we saw when the president was trying to get the american rescue package passed. that $1.9 trillion relief package. they saw that as an emergency. had to get done all at once. this seems different, andrea. it seems that the administration is open to negotiating with republicans, moderate democrats who say that's way too much spending and that opens the room with the possibility that we could see this get done in smaller pieces. now, we'll have to wait and see because these negotiations are just getting under way. but, again, i think the tone is

strikingly different as it relates to this big piece of legislation, andrea. >> let's talk about the negotiations, garrett. for the first time, mitch mcconnell is going to the white house. so, he's inviting the big four, the top leaders. that's going to be a first for this administration. >> oh, absolutely. and that meeting will be pivotal. even before it happens, i'm watching this back and forth between the president and the west virginia senator. and she's the tip of the sphere on the infrastructure negotiations. i think it's important to separate the two packages. the jobs plan, the infrastructure plan and the family plan. there's plurality that infrastructure need to be done. and the two sides are way far apart still but there's time and room to negotiate and perhaps pass something like that on a bipartisan basis.

on the families plan which includes things like paid leave, the universal pre-k, the free community college. by and large, republicans don't see those issues as an appropriate role of government. let alone the price tag which has given moderate republicans a sense of sticker shock. there's this bipartisan happening on the one hand on infrastructure and the jobs plan. and there may be a separate negotiation necessary among democrats to see if they can come up with the 50 votes they would need in the senate to pass the families plan later on because it is very difficult to see how they find any such or close to sufficient number of republican votes for those priorities. >> it's so interesting that both of the west virginia senators are fighting such pivotal roles here. and let's talk about infrastructure, though, the really popular part. not the family part which also popular which is hard to sell to republicans. we're talking about the bridges and roads and the rails.

let's talk about the roads, mike memoli. you're there. and he hasn't been able to travel since becoming president. >> reporter: that's right, joe biden, a biggest benefactor as well. this is getting america back on track-tour. as the train station is the locale for it. and what he's called the second great railroad revolution. he'll be speaking in front of the new line of the acela cars debuting on the rails of 2022. as he comes to the 50th birthday of amtrak, biden tweeting this is one party he wouldn't miss. he was actually getting ready to move his young family to

washington when the car accident that took his wife and young dare. what did biden end up doing, riding the rails to and from washington, back to wilmington, back to be with his two boys. such a key part of his identity over the years. in fact, bob dole used to call the amtrak funding bill, the bill to keep biden in delaware as biden himself has joked over the years. it's also part of his family as well, he's meeting with a father/son duo, one greg weaver introduced biden when he was vice president elect in 2009 as part of that whistle stop tour with president obama and his son blake has the honor of introducing biden as he speaks here this afternoon, andrea. >> we've seen him on the rails, one big benefactor was arlen specter, who was riding it. and acela again, because of the

pandemic, they cut back, they were supposed to restore all of the acela lines on may 24th, i'm told. we have a big problem for the biden administration. the drag on his polling, the migrant crisis. we see the numbers of migrant children beginning to slow down in terms not the surge, but the ability to handle it. but he sent a clear message in this conversation with craig melvin, in another part of that interview. >> and it's getting urgent action now. for example, a month ago, we had thousands of young kids in custody in places they shouldn't be. and controlled by the border patrol. we have now cut that down dramatically. >> you've said to migrants, don't come. you said don't come. you're very clear. and would you tell parents in central america and mexico, don't send your kids? >> absolutely. and look, here's the deal -- >> so, don't send your kids, that's the message?

>> do not send your kids -- period, most are in jeopardy making that 1,000-mile trek. what we're doing now, we're go bag to those countries and questioning where most is coming from, and saying, look, you can apply from your country. you don't have to make this trek. >> aneesh, is he getting that message through? and what about the problem that the american people perceive, especially in those states? we saw mark kelly, a native of the message speech at the joint sessions, criticizing the president because of what's happening on the arizona border, of course, mark kelly up for re-election in just two years. >> well, immigration is a key challenge facing the biden administration and president biden. it is true that he had gotten the number of unaccompanied minors in those cpd facilities that were not designed for children down and he's now been moving them into emergency shelters. but immigration is also an area where he has, at least so far,

not kept all of his promises chief among them his promise to raise the refugee class. saying he may raise that or will raise that in may. when you look at what the president was saying here, don't come, this is not the time to do that, that message you that just focused on. that message is not reaching migrants making this trip based on my reporting and talking to advocates. the number one thing people are thinking about when they decide whether or not to come and make this dangerous trek across the united states and their children, whether or not their lives are in better condition in dangerous conditions sometimes facing gangs, poverty, or whether or not they can risk it and try to get to the united states where they know at least unaccompanied minors would be welcomemany that message is not being reached. another thing in that interview is craig melvin pointing out that the task force that the biden administration set up to reunite families hasn't reunited

a single family agency of yet. the president said he thought that might not be true. he also said they're still kind of looking for the parents and the children. what is very much true, so far at least based on the last conversations that officials were having with reporters there has not been a family reunited by that task force because they say there's a mess they inherited as they wade through where the children are and where their parents are and how to reunite them. that's a critical thing that came through in that interview and the border is something that he'll continue to face as a challenge. absolutely. kristen, another key player here, tim scott, the republican senator from south carolina, the only black republican senator, and he's been the point person that they have to deal with. the president says he does want to deal with him. he's the major figure on this police reform issue. >> he's a major figure on the police reform issue. and, andrea, there was some movement on that yesterday when

philonise floyd, the brother of george floyd, was here in washington meeting with lawmakers on capitol hill. tim scott as well as senator graham, others, about police reform. he was joined by other advocates as well as attorney ben crump. and then they came here to the white house. and they met with top officials here at the white house including cedric richmond, so they're very serious about getting this done, andrea. and it comes against the backdrop of president biden and his address to congress this week setting that deadline. saying he wants a police reform bill passed by the first anniversary of george floyd's death. that is may 25th. i can tell you that based on my conversations with folks here at the white house and on capitol hill there is an urgency to get something done. but the question is will they be able to get it done, by that anniversary? and where will the compromise be, andrea. >> kristen welker, garrett haake, mike memoli and thanks to

all of you. the rudy giuliani calling the raids at his new york city apartment illegal and unconstitutional. new details next. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. ndrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. they grow from our imagination, but they can't be held back. they want to be set free. to make the world more responsible, and even more incredible. ideas start the future, just like that. ah, she thought that squirrel on your brand-new flat screen tv was an actual squirrel... leave it. purchase protection for what you didn't see coming. one of the many things you can expect when you're with amex. ♪

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history says: fine jewellery for occasions. we say: forget occasions. (snap) fine jewellery for every day. there are new details about what the fbi might have been searching for when they raided the home and office of former trump attorney rudy giuliani earlier this week.

"the new york times" is reporting that the investigation is centering on giuliani's role of ambassador maria vanovich. and this morning, nbc news confirmed that the fbi warned giuliani in late 2019 that the russians were targeting him. and republican senator ron johnson. urged to spread disinformation about joe biden. giuliani's lawyer denied where the former mayor got that briefing but nbc news starts by the reporting. joining me now jeremy bash, former chief of staff, cia and pentagon and attorney from chief counsel house intelligence committee as well. disinformation is a big deal and also the fact that rudy giuliani according to the fbi and "the new york times" account, the fbi, rather, was looking into the ukrainian push to get rid of

maria vanovich. is this an alleged violation of the foreign lobbying laws or is there something more here? >> well, there appear to be two streams here to the fbi's investigation into activities involving rudy giuliani. the first is russian interference in the u.s. political system. obviously, this is a well-understood story by the u.s. intelligence community which has published assessments that show that russia obviously was involved in the 2016 election. but also was trying to influence the 2020 election. so there's a national security commission. i think the one question for the fbi is, as russia was trying to sow disinformation, was rudy giuliani willing or unwilling? was he a stooge or in on it? i think that's the first question. the second more serious question

is a question for rudy giuliani the criminal question. whether or not he was breaking any laws. one law is whether or not the russians were trying to pay giuliani with this exchange of historical government action of firing the u.s. ambassador, she was tough on the ukrainians with respect to corruption. and the ukrainians wanted her gone. the question is was there a bribery scheme, a quid pro quo where they paid giuliani for that and in exchange, the trump administration fired her. that's why the fbi is investigating him. >> i want to play some of what ambassador joe vanovich had to say at the impeachment hearings. >> i do not understand mr. giuliani's motives for attacking me nor can i offer the opinion whether he believed the allegations he spread about me.

mr. giuliani should have known those plans were suspect, coming as they did with questionable motive and believed that their political ambitions would be sometime milled by the anti-corruption policy. >> and there were also concerned expressed by some of the state department, other state department witnesses that giuliani was running a parallel state department. parallel, of course to mike pompeo. and there's one thing that mike pompeo disagreed with this happening under trump's watch. >> it's a great point, andrea, because if the united states government, if the president wanted to remove an ambassador, he can do that. he can do that through the state department, the secretary of state or deputy secretary of state. and say, madam ambassador, your supervises are no longer required. we're calling you home. that's not what happened. he used his personal lawyer rudy giuliani to do this on his personal behalf. it's

this is a nonpartisan investigation. of course, it started under the trp justice department. it's continued. it's no way a partisan matter. criminal laws were broken and on a nonpolitical basis, they've assessed that the u.s. was a target of disinformation campaign. i think all americans, republican, democrat, independent, whatever, who want to stop that for future election cycles. >> and there are a lot of questions being raised about the timing of this raid. of course, giuliani and his attorney speaking out against what they consider discrimination and abuse by this new white house. it started under bill barr. then the question is why weren't these warrants issued before? before president trump -- or the former president left office. do you think that that was legitimately not doing it in the

election time frame so it didn't create, you know, the kind of backlash and influence, possible influence, on voting? or were they trying to stop it? >> i don't know, andrea. and i think it's actually going to be hard to know bus the ones who will be asking the questions whether it's folks from the executive branch or from congress, you know, in a sense, they can't taint a nonpartisan investigation by trying to put pressure and asking questions. so, i think this should remain in the nonpolitical lane of career prosecutors and career fbi officials. let this play out. let the facts go where they will. and, you know, not have this in any way tainted by anybody's partisan political agenda. >> jeremy bash, thank you. thank you. we can see that ukraine is front and center in russian policy, u.s. and russian policy. and they've announced today that the secretary of state is going to ukraine next week. thanks to jeremy bash and also,

today, israel mourning one of the country's deadliest civilian disasters after at least 45 people were killed and 150 injured in a terrible stampede after a religious observation. it happened when tons of thousands of people gathered together in mount meron for the first festival sin israel lifts covid restrictions. witnesses say dozes fell on each other, and president biden speaking to prime minister benjamin netanyahu offering his condolences and assistance. israel's ambassador saying he's deeply moved with the outpouring of support from our friends in the united states and around the world. racism in america, president biden is commenting on tim scott's announcement that

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in his exclusive interview with nbc's craig melvin, president biden responded to

republican senator's tim scott's comments on racism, after scott, the only black republican senator had this to say about systemic racism in this country. >> hear me clearly, america is not a racist country. it's back to fight discrimination with other types of discrimination. and it's wrong to try to use its painful past to honestly shut down debates in the present. >> he said among other things, america isn't racist. is it? >> no, i don't think the american people are racist. but i think after 400 years, african americans have been left in a position where they are so far behind the 8-ball in terms of education, health, in terms of opportunity, i don't america is racist, but i think the overhang from all of the jim crow and before that slavery had

a cost. and we have to deal with it. >> joining me now is jeh johnson, the former secretary of homeland security in the obama administration. secretary johnson, good to see you. thank you very much. do you agree with tim scott and the way he framed the issue? >> no, i don't, andrea, a lot of us would like to believe with the election of a black president 12 years ago, we finally put aside our legacy, our racist legacy in this country. unfortunately, there is still a strand, a large strand of america, that is racist, that is intolerant. that is highly susceptible to the so-called great replacement misinformation that is out there. we saw this charlottesville. we saw this on january 6th. we had a president, the last president, who peeled the lid

off of this racist strand in our country. and feels emboldened right now, and we see attacks on black churches, on mosques, on synagogues. are most americans racist? no. but there still exist ace large strand of this nation that is. it's an uggie intolerant strand, and anyone who can't see that seats didn't want to see it or has the inability to see the obvious. >> now, scott has subsequently been criticized on social media and he was attacked with racial slurs including calling him uncle tim. here's his response thursday morning on fox. >> the left is -- they have doubled down that they're going to not attack my policies. but they are literally attacking the color of my skin. you cannot step out of your lane according to the liberal elite left. >> so, i know democrats are

tiptoeing around this very nasty debate because tim scott is critical now to the legislation on getting police reform done. by may 25th. the president set that agenda, set that timetable. do you think that can be done? and should they compromise qualified immunity which is the sticking point in order to get something on the george floyd legislation? >> well, first, i -- i'm sympathetic to senator scott. and the personal attacks on him are totally unwarranted and ugly. and i would encourage him to hang in there and continue to be a leader on this issue in the republican party. i also think it's important that the biden administration do try to achieve a bipartisan consensus on national police reform so it is sustainable. and the republicans take ownership and responsibility of this important issue.

ultimately, andrea, in my view, on the national level, i think it's important that the federal government incentivize and disincentivize certainly local police behavior through grants. and real change can only take place in police departments. and places like brooklyn center, minnesota, or louisville. through local political pressure, through reforms by police commissioners, by chiefs. by mayors. but i do encourage senator scott to keep at this. i believe that if he can achieve consensus with the biden administration, he can bring along a number of republicans and the house. >> and the department of homeland security that you once led has announced an internal review to try to root out white supremacy and white extremism within federal agencies. do you think that's needed? >> yes, i do.

as far as i know there was no specific incident within dhs, no specific individual or group of individuals within dhs that prompts this inquiry. but we do know that a number of the insurrectionists on january 6th were members of the military, former members of the military, perhaps even some in law enforcement. so, i think it's incumbent on both the department of defense and the department of homeland security to take a hard look with this within their own ranks, absolutely. >> and, you were, of course, general counsel at the pentagon. and this is what dwight austin had to say about doing exactly that. >> the job of the department of defense is to keep america safe from our enemies, but we can't do that if some of those enemies lie within our own ranks. >> so, you now have a defense secretary who is looking, you know, taking a hard look at it. dhs and merrick garland is, of course, ordering pattern and

practice investigations into minneapolis, into louisville. so, you've got cabinet officials in the administration doing something actively about this kind of systemic racism, in key departments. >> yes. and that's a good thing. in many respects, it's overdue. in my experience, andrea, in dhs, in dod, the people i interacted with, whether it was on the front lines or at the pentagon or headquarters are dedicated, hard-working people. but we cannot dismiss the possibility that within those ranks there are extremists, extreist attitudes and perhaps even people prone to violence. so i think this is a worthwhile inquiry. >> jeh johnson, always a pleasure. nice to see you. thank you very much, sir. >> nice to see you, thanks. and vote watch. florida passing new voting limits despite objections from black lawmakers. what the new rules will and will

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♪ florida's legislature has just approved new restrictions on drop boxes and voting by mail in a bill that the governor drawn desantis is expected to quickly sign into law. democratic officials say some of its issues are aimed to target local officials set to run in local elections to replace al hastings whose miami district is now vacant since his passing earlier this month. joining us, jim messina, manager of president obama's successful 2012 election. and jen palmieri co-host of the circus and former white house director for president obama. thanks to both. jim, of course, following the georgia voting law signed into law by governor brian kemp a few weeks ago.

how do you think this will impact the states, not just happening in these two states, of course? >> no, andrea, it's seven southern states that have passed this law. you literally can't make this up, in florida, they literally passed it on confederate memorial day. the intent of the bill is -- by doing things, first, figure out how to target these voters by saying, can't have -- can't hand out water, can't hand out food. as you well know in florida, in these special elections in the summer, it's incredibly warm. that's crazy. second, african american turnout doubled in florida in 2020, using mail-in ballots. they want to target those. the republican head of the elections office in pascual county, florida literally said it befuddled why they're doing

this, the system works very well. they're doing this because he said more democrats voted by mail than republicans did, specifically, african americans. they're going straight at it targeting these voters. it's cynical, it's ridiculous, but it's about to become law. >> and jen, in arizona, there's this totally unprecedented vote count. it's been sanctioned by republican leaders lead by a group called the cyberninjas. a vote sanctioned by the governor through the courts doing this, this group is very suspect. they've been acting on behalf of vote and election deniers. and the only reporters, outside observers by the president is oal. how do you read that? >> actually, i heard when i thought that, i thought it was a joke, but that actually is the name of the organization that is involved with this. and they are doing this -- they

are not allowing -- there was at one time, the arizona reporter that was in there as a counter. and they bought her as well. i think the problem for the republican party is the only cohesive message that the public is hearing right now about republicans is they're the undemocrat party with a little "d." they're the party that wants to make it harder to vote, particularly not white. they're fighting with each other. they don't have a good argument against biden. and as these bills pile up across the country, georgia, florida, there are hundreds of these happening, this is the one message getting through people. it reminds voters of the january 6 and the insurrection. it reminds them that 40 members of congress voted to overturn the presidential election. i think that can hurt the republicans electorally and have

an impact on legislation. you know, support for reforms like hr1 may grow. and the public's response to this type of gaming that's happening across the board with republican party. >> jim messina, how did this impact some of these key senate races, though? the argument is georgia was critical -- we know the president was there yesterday -- critical with those two senate seats. now, you have one of them, they have a big fight, you've got mark kelly out in arizona criticizing the president on the very night he was giving his speech to congress over the border surge. >> yeah. this absolutely could affect the senate races. you know, you have a tied senate is a seat that the democrats must hold on to hold on to their majority. florida looks like it's going to be another bellwether state.

congress member val demings is about to counter marco rubio, that will be big. it's not going to be helpful to the democratic party but it goes back to what democrats have to do which is get on the ground, talk to voters about these unprecedented attempts and see if we can create a backlash of voters saying you can do whatever you want. but i'm going to come and make sure i vote. i think jen is right, we could see a rebound on the other side, democrats having record turnouts to push back the unprecedented attempts that stop them from voting. >> on the house side, they're going to need a record turnout, it's only a five-seat advantage and you could have a complete switch which would be fatal to the biden initiatives in congress. jim messina, jen palmieri, thank you both very much. coming up, an nbc news

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the white house is poised to announce another milestone getting 100 million americans fully vaccinated with both doses. the big challenge now is not just that they have enough supplies but how to get people to take the shots. anti-vaxxers are taking it to a whole new level with vaccination cards showing up on trump and anti-vaccination sites. and with a database with privacy concerns leaving the paper cards issued by the cdc as the only real proof of vaccination. joining me now is nbc news' ben collins reporting. how are they taking advantage of it? >> yeah, see these cards right here, you probably got one when you went to get a vaccine. there's not really much on there as a bouncer on a bar or somebody helping you board a

plane to figure out to see if it's forged or not. anti-vaxxers have taken advantage of this. they have taken sample cards to put on the back of state websites, states like wyoming and missouri who put it on their like, they took those and they added instructions and they put them on the website. they tell you the exactly thickness of the card stock to use to simulate a good -- a real cdc card, or they tell you the resolution at which you would want to print the information on these labels. they are indistinguishable from the real thing. because there's no national database, we are winning it. this is the best we can do right now. >> do you think there should be pushback on the privacy issue? >> i mean, that's the question. the more you make it -- the more you make it look like there's going to be database, the more

it will stop. there's a reason the cdc didn't tell people about this. we had to find this out. the cdc sent guidance to pull the cards because this was happening. there is a delicate dance here that's going on between the anti-vax community and the government to get people vaccinated. >> ben collins, that's interesting. thank you for bringing it to us. joining us is a former member of the biden transition covid-19 board. how serious is this threat, forged vaccination cards, so people can go out and do what they want when they have not been vaccinated? >> yeah. i think it's a serious threat. i think inevitable that we will be certifying whether people have been vaccinated or not to go to indoor events like theater or sporting events or even board

airplanes or return to employment, and i understand why the administration didn't want to create a large database. i don't think the privacy is really the concern. i think a lot of people -- what they are worried about is exploitation. is it commercialized? is it going to fall into hands where people are going to use it for other reasons than the reasons that they certify? i think those are serious concerns. but so is forgery and so is i'm going to an indoor spot, everybody says they have been vaccinated but haven't and a spreading event is possible. there's no easy solution here. i do think not doing a national database whereby the qr code you can get in, having that be done by a not for profit, making sure it won't be commercialized, i think that would have been the right way to go.

>> craig melvin talked to the president, of course, about whether the military should have to get vaccinated. i want to show that response. >> will you order service members to get the covid vaccine? >> i don't know. i'm going to leave that to the military. >> why not? >> i'm not saying i won't. i think it's going to be a tough call as to whether or not they should be required. you are in such close proximity with other military personnel. >> especially in naval quarters. they have had problems on ships with spread. should members of the military have to be vaccinated? >> you know, andrea, about three weeks ago we published an op-ed in "the new york times" saying that we are going to need mandates to get up to herd immunity. i think the place you start with mandates are health care workers. health care workers are professionals who pledge they will put their patients first.

all health care workers should be mandated to get the vaccine. many health care facilities mandate that their workers have to get a flu vaccine. covid is a more serious illness. that's the place to start. then we can think about policemen and first responders, emts. employers need to think about this. i think it's really important. i am chagrin that some polls suggested that 40% of different parts of the military have refused. that is a very serious concern. the last thing we wantsuper spreading events among our soldiers. we have tense relations in iran and the south china sea or the straits between taiwan and china. we have to be prepared and our military has to be prepared. no one likes a mandate. on the other hand, month one likes to see people get this

illness and get hospitalized and god forbid die. >> you had an aircraft carrier quarantined back more than a year ago. the cdc says that they have received reports of clusters of 64 anxiety-related events after the administration pause on the johnson & johnson vaccine from those five mass vaccination sites in different states. what do you make of these reports about johnson & johnson and anxiety? >> i think they're minor reports. we have given out millions of doses of the johnson & johnson vaccine. this is clearly a response to the heightened tension around them. i don't think they are that serious. they are fainting, sweating, increased heart rate. i would not put too much stock in this. i think as the johnson & johnson vaccine comes back to common

use, you are seeing a lot of people want it. they like one and done part of it. i think it provides an alternative. >> was it a mistake to do the pause? you think? >> the main goal the government wanted to inform doctors about the right treatment and make them aware this was a problem. see if there were cases out there. very, very important. examine the data. i think all that was could have been done with a more targeted pause. we could have calculated on day one that even if we had ten times the number of reports as were discovered through the reporting system, it still would have meant of it overwhelmingly beneficial to get the vaccine, even with this side effect. i worried about it from the start. >> sorry, we have to leave it

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